The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
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Jen Fisher (Jen): Hi WorkWell listeners. I am really excited to share that my book Work Better Together
is officially out. Conversations with WorkWell guests and feedback from listeners like you inspired this
book. It's all about how to create a more human-centered workplace, and as we return to the office for
many of us, this book can help you move forward into post-pandemic life with strategies and tools to
strengthen your relationships and focus on your well-being. It's available now from your favorite book
retailer.
Time is a precious resource, yet we live in a culture that constantly makes us feel like we never have
enough of it. With only 24 hours in a day, how can we make sure we are spending it on the things that
matter and that give us joy?
This is the WorkWell podcast series bringing you a special miniseries from the 2023 World Happiness
Summit. Hi, I’m Jen Fisher, Chief Well-Being Officer for Deloitte, and I am so pleased to be with you
today to talk about all things well-being. I am here with Cassie Holmes. She is an award-winning teacher
and researcher of time and happiness. She is also a professor of Marketing and Behavioral Decision
Making at UCLA's Anderson School of Management, and she is the bestselling author of the book
Happier Hour. Cassie, welcome to the show.
Cassie Holmes (Cassie): Thank you so much, Jen, I’m excited to be here.
Jen: I’m excited to have this conversation, so let's start. How did you become passionate about
researching time and happiness? I feel like those things are often at odds with one another.
Cassie: And that's probably exactly why I started researching this because I found that for my happiness,
and by that I mean the emotion that I was experiencing in my day, as well as the satisfaction, felt about
my life, my biggest challenge was time, and I had a really actually unhappy relationship with time. I
share a story to open the book that I think many can relate to and it was like earlier in my career when I
was an assistant professor at Wharton, it was just like one of these like crazy hectic days, which so many
of us have, and like all of my days feel crazy and hectic, but this one I remember quite vividly because I
was poignant. I had gone up from Philly to New York to give a talk and it was sort of squished between
back-to-back meetings and then I am rushing to this colleague dinner and then rushing to the train
station and in a New York City cab, as they already are driving fast, and I am not someone who yells and
here I was yelling at this man to drive faster because I could not miss the last train that would get me
home to my four-month old and my husband who was in Philly. I did make the train, but it was like
looking out of the window as everything was rushing by, I was like I don't know if I can keep up between
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the pressures of work, wanting to be a good parent, wanting to be a good partner, wanting to be a good
friend, the never ending pile of chores that is like, I just don't have enough hours in the day to get it all
done, let alone to do any of it well, let alone to enjoy any of it along the way. So, it was that feeling of
where I was actually considering, I was like I think the only solution is to quit, to quit my job. That led
me, I did not quit my job and instead I actually started dedicating myself to figuring out how do I/we
invest our hours so that our time is not our biggest challenge, but can be the solution to greater
happiness.
Jen: I can't wait to have this conversation because I feel like I have a lot to learn. This story that you just
told, it’s in one way or another all of us can relate to, especially in today's world. So, let's dive right in. I
know in the book you talk about that we live in this culture that keeps us feeling time poor. So, can you
talk about what that is and why that is?
Cassie: In our culture, it's like busyness has become like a status symbol. It's like if we are busy that
means that we are needed and important and competent and able and in high demand and our
busyness is something that is like we are reacting to what seems urgent, irrespective of how important
those things are and we can distract ourselves from what matters by just moving through the day and
getting things done. It's these to-do list that we have, and I live almost by mine, and the crummy thing is
those to-do lists are not only motivating us to get stuff done, but it's driving us and constantly in the
back of our minds such that we are rushing through everything that we are doing and what's on that list,
not all of it is important. Even checking some of those things off can be a way to almost procrastinate
from the stuff that really matters and some of that stuff that really matters is actually not doing a to-do
list and carving out time where we are simply being. We give ourselves the space to really connect with
the people around us, but also we have technology like our smartphones are with us at every second
that allow us to be getting stuff done at every moment, and even the presence of our phones, even if we
are not on them, it's like reminding us of all the other things we could and should be doing, which pulls
us out of the moment, I mean, we are distracted. Research shows that we are distracted, not thinking
about what we are currently doing almost half of the time, 47% of the time. When we are spending time
on what is important, if our mind isn't even in it, then we are missing out on that time as well. Again,
time is this big challenge that we have because we wish we had more of it so that we could get more
done as well as slow down, but by being more intentional and carving out time for these activities that
are important, that are worthwhile, and when we are engaging in those activities, paying attention, you
actually have really big and positive effects.
Jen: This whole idea of the to-do List, checking I mean cause I fall, I don't know if it's victim, but I am
definitely guilty of this where it's like I have my to-do list and I don't necessarily do the things, like you
said, the things that are most important or the things that I know I should prioritize, but what I go to are
the things that are easiest to check off the list because I feel like that's going to give me some sense of
satisfaction that I accomplished something, but often I don't actually feel like I have accomplished
something because the big, meaty, hairy, hard things are still on the list, and so I still end up getting
really stressed out about them.
Cassie: Totally. I am subject to this too, or guilty, or prone to it as well. I refer to it as productive
procrastination. It's like when we have the big, meaty, challenging, and important tasks that are ahead
of us, sometimes it is easier if we procrastinate by doing these little easy things to check off. Like email
inbox is the most distracting and it will fill all of the time that I give it, and it gives me a sense that I am
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getting stuff done and responding to emails, it is something that I do need to deal, but it is not
necessarily the important stuff. The problem is with this sort of feeling of time poverty. So, when I was
saying that sense that I had on the train that so many of us have what we refer to in the literature as
being time poor, it’s that acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. It's really
prevalent. We actually did a national poll that showed that nearly half of Americans feel time poor and
it’s like you were saying it's like all of us feel this way, but it's really detrimental because actually the
effects of it, like in my research as well as others, when we feel like we don't have enough time, it makes
us less healthy. We are less likely to exercise, we delay going to the doctor, it makes us less nice, so we
are less likely to slow down and help others out, it makes us less confident in being able to achieve what
we set out to do, and it makes us less happy. If given the fact that we feel so time poor, if we are filling
our time with these less important things that can make us feel like we are getting stuff done and we are
accomplishing, the problem is that it derails us from making progress on the stuff that's really important
and then we are looking back on our weeks and we are like we were busy, but you don't feel at all
satisfied or fulfilled because you haven't actually invested in what does matter, like those pieces of your
work that are those big meaty projects that are so important to making progress, as well as the
relationships in our life, investing in those people that really matter to us. When we are so busy and we
are…..
Jen: The relationships suffer the most.
Cassie: Yeah, and this idea of like what's urgent versus important. We respond to what seems urgent,
irrespective of its importance. Unfortunately, relationships, the ones that are so important, we don't
recognize them as urgent because they are part of the fabric of our lives, it’s like our family members,
it's like our best friends, have been around forever.
Jen: We make the assumption that they will always be there because they have always been there.
Cassie: Yeah. A way to undermine happiness is by not investing in those people. We can talk about that
from lots of different angles, but the role of social connection and carving out and making the time such
that we are investing in those things that really matter.
Jen: So, you brought up this whole idea of what's urgent versus what's important. When it comes to our
to-do list, I feel like we spend a lot of our time, at least I do, spend a lot of my time reacting to what's on
other people's to-do List that's not necessarily even on my to-do list.
Cassie: It's really important for folks to identify their own purpose, like what is it that really drives you,
what is that sort of impact, that higher level goal that you have in your pursuits. So in Happier Hour, one
of the exercises I share to help people identify their purpose, because it sounds sort of lofty and mushy
and unattainable, but it's the five why’s exercise. It's the five why’s because you are asking and
answering five layers of why do you do what you do. Oftentimes the first answer to why do you do what
you do is the job description that for me as a Business School professor, it’s to do research and to teach.
But then you ask yourself again, well, why is that important? I want to create knowledge and
disseminate knowledge and then asking again, well, why? Why is that important to you? And then in
answering five layers of why you, really sort of get at the heart of what drives you and for me, I realized
that what really drives me is creating knowledge about what makes people happy and disseminating
knowledge about what makes people happy and notably, my purpose is distinct from all of my
colleagues and even probably the Business School, but it's so helpful for me to know what drives me
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because it allows me to figure out what do I say yes to and what do I say no to. You can use it as a filter
and I absolutely do. I use it as a filter for what is a research project that I will take on? Is it creating
knowledge about what makes people happy? If I am invited to do an interview or give a talk, is it about
disseminating knowledge about what makes people happy? If so, yes, then it’s an absolutely game to do
it, but if it's not, then it's a no, like the committee work, the other projects, there are endless
opportunities and requests and asks that we all get throughout our days. But also, not only does it help
to identify what to say yes or no to, but it makes some of those unfun features of your job just less
onerous and it actually makes some of the work just truly joyful. So, it's like if you know the why of your
tasks, then it makes it feel better to do it. So, like I hate email, but if I am responding to a research
collaborator and I am like this is actually, not email, this is about creating knowledge about what makes
people happy, then it's like this is worthwhile, and that worthwhileness makes it feel more fulfilling. It
doesn't feel like such a waste of time, which is so many pieces. The thing that's so painful for us is
wasting time. When we feel like we have spent minutes or hours on something that was worthless, that
is very painful and actually research shows we are more sensitive to wasting time than wasting money
because it can never be regained. If you know the why of your work, then it becomes more fun. That's to
say, by having that clarity as to your purpose, what are your goals then that will inform what you take on
and what is important and not necessarily just what seems urgent and is put on you by others.
Jen: But all of us have things in our jobs that we have to do regardless of whether or not they are
aligned or associated with our purpose, but I think what I hear you saying is that trying to find the path
to purpose, even if the task at hand isn't specifically related, so like email. So, you hate email, but you
want to respond to a certain email because it leads to an opportunity that is important to you, that
matters to you. I was thinking about like okay if there are things that I know I have to do just because
they are a factor of my job, does that help changing my mindset around that. I know I have to get this
done because it's just something I have to do related to my job, but then that allows me to move on or
move forward to the tasks or the things that actually are much more purposeful or much more
meaningful to me. Am I understanding that correctly?
Cassie: So, it is understanding that it fits into your work and in order for you to make progress on the
stuff that matters, this might be something that isn't necessary and so that makes it more worthwhile. A
lot of these things that we think are necessary, aren’t actually. It does help filter some of that stuff out.
So it's like, yes, my email responding to my colleague or my research collaborator is something that is
important to respond to, but staying up on my inbox, that's actually as a whole is not super important.
So, it does clarify that. Then also there are going to be features of your job and our lives like if you look
at the time tracking research like what are those activities that we spend our time on that lead to the
most happiness and contribute to the least amount of happiness. The least happy activities on average
are commuting, so getting to work and back from work hours for the average American and the average
work hour and housework, but obviously these are things that we have to do. For work hours, there is
like understanding the purpose so that you can craft your work such that it is more satisfying and
fulfilling. But then there is just going to be parts that aren't fun. So, I do share other strategies, bundling
is actually a very effective strategy to make activities that feel like a chore feel less like a chore, and
bundling is coming out of research by Katy Milkman and her colleagues where they talk about it as a way
to motivate. I talk about it as a way to make hours feel better.
So, bundling is so simple. It's like you take an activity that you have to do that’s not fun and you bundle
it with another activity that you do enjoy such that that time that you spend then feels more enjoyable.
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So, like commuting instead of what we generally do is mindlessly scroll radio stations in the car or if you
are on the subway school social media. If you are actually intentional and like every time you get in the
car, turn on an audio book or listen to a podcast or if you are on the subway, open a book, then all of a
sudden that time, you are like learning something and you get to finally read. In my time poverty
research, for instance, I have people complete the sentence, I don't have time to ____(blank). A very
frequent answer is I don't have time to read for pleasure, but if every time you got in the car you turned
on an audio book, then every week you get through a book. So, you can join that book club that you
didn't have time for before. But also work hours, the happiest activities, the time tracking points to our
happiest hours as those that are socially connecting, those times that allow us to truly connect and have
those conversations with folks. If you bundle some of your unfun work with social connection, then all of
a sudden that feels more fun. So, like in that email, like someone on a project, instead of like that 3:00
PM trudging through writing the email, why don’t you invite that person and go and grab a cup of coffee
and it gets you outside, which research shows is a mood booster, gets you moving and you get that
social connection that makes all of a sudden talking about that the next steps on the project more fun.
Jen: I love all of those ideas. So when we talk about time poverty, I think a lot of people would say well,
basically you are just telling me that I need to stop doing so much so I can have more free time. So, I
guess what's your response to that because I feel like people would be like, yeah it would be nice to stop
doing so much, but I don't have that luxury?
Cassie: Yeah, actually it may be funny but my answer to time poverty is actually to not do less, but to do
more, to do more of the things that matter to you. So, what is time poverty is that feeling of not having
enough time to do the things that matter, that things that you want to do. There are a couple of ways to
address that. One is being more thoughtful about the to-do list actually, which is what we were talking
about before, making sure that the important stuff is on that list, like what you set out to do is
determined by you and what's important as opposed to others or this sort of general sense that you
should be doing something, but also it's the confidence in being able to achieve what you set out to do.
So, the role of self-efficacy. One of the things in my research we found that spending time to help
someone, giving time actually makes you feel like you have more time, which is counterintuitive at first
because when we are in a rush, something that we don't do, is slow down to help others out, we
become actually very stingy with our time. We found in experiments that when people actually do help
someone out, it makes them feel like they have more time because what happens is you are like oh my
God I accomplished a lot. Like when you’ve helped someone, you are like I accomplished a lot with my
time and then it gives you a sense of how much you can accomplish with your time more generally
increasing a sense of time affluence.
You can also think about this with respect to exercise. When I feel like I don't have time, one of the first
things that goes is my morning run. But when I make the time to go on my morning run, I am like I am
out there and exercise increases like not only does it help offset anxiety and depression, but it increases
self-esteem and increases self-efficacy and I am always so like as I am out there in the morning running,
all of a sudden it's like bring it on day, I can do but I want to and I need to and if that is important for me
to do and it lessens that sense of limitation of time and it increases that sense of being able to
accomplish what I set out to do. There is also work actually that shows awe, so having an experience
that evokes awe oftentimes that can happen from nature or going and seeing a live performance and
that feeling of awe expands not only your perspective in general, but also the sense of how much time
you have. So that answer for like time poverty isn't to do less of everything, it's actually to make time for
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those things that really matter, like exercise, like that social connection, like carving out and protecting
time for that work, that purposeful work, and removing the distraction of the phones or email and that
increases a sense of how much you have done and the worthwhileness of it and therefore minimizes or
lessens that sense of limitation from time poverty.
Jen: I love that you brought awe into this because we talk about if you research awe. Actually, we have
had Decker Keltner and Jonathan Haidt, both have been on the podcast. I know Decker just came out
with his book on awe, which I haven't read yet, but it's on my list. They talk about awe in terms of
something that actually gives you the feeling of expanding time, it makes you feel like you have more
time or I guess it could also make you feel really small.
Cassie: No, but what it does is it gives perspective. So yes, it's like you are a piece of this larger whole,
but it's expanding the sense that it gives perspective and that expansive sense of time.
Jen: You have brought up technology a couple of times, especially in terms of distraction, and I think
that's how most of us would probably associate the technology in our lives, but is there a way to use
technology positively to help alleviate time poverty.
Cassie: Well, actually yes. Technology is very effective; it allows us to do so much at every single
moment. It allows us to socially connect. Even research that looks at the role of social media on
emotional well-being, it depends on how you use it. So when you are using social media as a way to
connect with folks who you already have relationships with, if it is about sharing pictures with your
family and seeing pictures of your family and staying connected to those relations, like facetime, so that
you are minimizing the physical distance so that you can actually stay connected to the people that you
love. That is really powerful. The problem is when it's used passively, so when you are not actively
connecting, but you are using it to watch other people's lives, it has a really negative effect because
oftentimes, it's like not an accurate representation of other people's lives. You only see them in their
smiley moment, and then it's lots of people. So, at every moment of your regular day, you are seeing
these perfect moments of other people's days and so through that social comparison, it can feel quite
isolating. Not to mention like this sense of expectation that it creates as I mentioned before. It's like
since you can be doing anything at every moment, like knocking off those to-do lists like ordering
something or ordering your groceries or your kids school supplies. Since you can be doing that at any
moment, then oftentimes we think that we should be.
Technology is very useful. The thing that you just need to be careful of is that it can fill so much time
that you need to protect time from it. I talk about carving out times as no phone zones. At dinner with
your family, or going out for drinks with a girlfriend, or during that part of your work day where you
actually do want to get into that deeper meatier work. For me, it was when I was writing the book, I
carved out hours that were no phone zones. So, sort of protecting my mind space from the pings
because what you want to do is get into flow. Researcher Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, talks about this flow
state and that is when you are so immersed in what you are doing that you lose your sense of time and
that's like when we are at our best, where we are most creative, most productive, but there is no way
we are going to get into flow if you are responding to pings or you keep getting the temptation to look
at your phone and I will just quickly respond to this email. Those distractions keep you from getting into
a flow state and in the sort of social context, there is a cute study conducted by Liz Dunn and her
colleagues where it was friends dining together and they randomly assigned some folks to put their
phones away out of sight, the others could leave their phones on the table like we generally do, and
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what they found was that those who had put their phones away out of sight reported enjoying the
dining experience more because they were more engaged. Having the phone on the table made them
enjoy the experience less because they were more distracted. So, as we are so busy, if we are going to
spend time on an activity that does matter to us, then carve it out, protect it, put the phone away so
that you are getting the most out of that time.
Jen: You are spending the time, but you are not getting the fulfillment out of it because of the presence
of technology.
Cassie: It's like you are sort of missing the time.
Jen: Actually you are kind of wasting the time.
Cassie: Missing out on that potential happiness, which is so critical when we have so little time.
Jen: Has anybody ever told you, at least initially, that it's anxiety producing?
Cassie: Yeah, all of them. So like going into it, they are like, oh my god, professor what are you doing to
us, it is like super stressful going into it and actually the first hour is stressful for many people because
it's that habit of reaching for the phone to see who is trying to reach me, what am I missing and then the
cadence of the six hours is interesting because it's that first hour where it's still that anxiety and stress
and then on like hour two that sense of stress sort of dissipates and then people really settle into the
experience and then that's where you get the freeing feeling and the power. There are a lot of folks that
are anxious about I have so much I need to get done but then what's so interesting is coming out of the
digital detox, they were way more productive than they would have been otherwise for all the reasons
that we were saying before because the productive procrastination and those interruptions such as
phone and technology does, but once they freed themselves from that and got that space, then they
actually dug in and did those big and important things that they have been procrastinating from and
holding off. So, they ended up actually more productive during that time.
Jen: I feel like you are like inside of my world or inside of my head describing this. I think we have talked
about practical tools or tips throughout in terms of the way we can structure or restructure our time,
but are there some other specific tips, especially related to our work day or the way that we design and
structure our work day that you like to share with.
Cassie: There are so many, but one that I think is very helpful is time tracking. As I was mentioning
before, what researchers do to identify what are those activities that are more satisfying versus less,
over the course of people's days, they see what activity they are doing and how they are feeling, so they
can pull out, on average, what are those activities that make people most happy and least happy. But
that's based off of averages, so like yes on average, hours spent working are the least happy and on
average hours spent socializing are the most happy, but that's like an average person. I can absolutely
say that there are some of my work hours that are totally joyful, and I can absolutely say that there are
sometimes socializing that doesn't feel very fun. So, what I encourage folks to do is actually to track their
own time for a week, writing down. It's very rudimentary worksheet from my website but anyone can
write this down. Basically, what you are doing is for every half hour writing down what activity are you
doing and being more specific than work versus socializing, like what work task is it. If you are
socializing, whom are you with and what are you doing and as importantly, rating on a 10-point scale,
how did you feel coming out of it, how satisfied happy, fulfilling. Admittedly, while it is pretty tedious to
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do the tracking, it is so worthwhile because at the end of the week you have this fantastic, personalized
data set so you can look across all of your data and be like what are those activities that made me feel
the best. And then also like what are some commonalities across those most positive activities? I found
for instance when I did it, it was like actually one-on-one conversations were my source of happiness,
whether that's with a family member, whether that's like with friends, I far prefer the one-on-one drink
or coffee than the group dinners or cocktail parties.
Also, I realized one-on-one conversations with colleagues were actually really wonderful too and while
that goes in the work bucket, it is a great source for me of fulfillment and I saw that in my data and I also
saw like what work, tasks, or activities are the good ones versus the bad ones and then also with this
data you see not just what activities feel the best and worst, but also just how much time you are
spending across your various activities. So, when my students do this, for instance, going back to the
role of social media, a common observation is like holy cow, I had no idea I was spending that much time
on social media. It's like it's only five minutes I will check, but those five minutes turn into half hour,
then those half hours add up to over 10 hours in a week and for folks who feel truly time poor, folks who
are like I don't have time to do this stuff that I really want, meanwhile, they are spending 10 hours on
social media or like watching TV every night, it varies and we have this sense of like social media is my
fun time. But then when they look at their ratings, it's like a four out of 10 and watching TV like it's like
decompressing fun time the way we think of it, but it's really it's that first half hour that's fun. As we are
like on hour three of binging every night and then it's like a forth night in a row. Actually these are hours
that aren't as fun as I thought they were and can be reallocated to other activities that really are
satisfying, like meeting up with a friend for a drink or dinner when we so often feel like we don't have
the time.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely, and those are things that are really seemingly easy to fix. It doesn’t require a
major overhaul of your life, it’s just cutting how much time you spend on social media or cutting out
how much time you watch TV and that should be seemingly pretty easy.
Cassie: Totally. I mean all of the strategies I give are simple, little tweaks that have really big effects and
even just seeing your own data for the time tracking that will have its own effect because that will be all
of a sudden clarifying and it's not me telling you like spend less time doing social media, but you looking
at your own data and being like, wow, it really doesn't make me all that happy. It's such clear, I can
scoop that time that is actually being wasted because it's not that fun, nor is it important and reallocate
and open up those hours for going for that morning run because it will make me feel better or meeting
up with your friend for a drink because that will be so fun.
Jen: I love that. So one more question, I know you also in addition to researching I guess time and
happiness, but you are also researching or you have been researching time and its connection to other
things like money and age. Are there any interesting insights from your other research that you have
learned that you would like to share.
Cassie: I think the role of age is really illuminating. So, what we found is that over the course of people's
lives, what makes, how they express and experience happiness shifts. So, looking at blog, we looked at
like millions of posts when someone wrote, I am feeling happy, what are they expressing and what we
found is younger people tend to experience happiness as excitement. As you get older, it becomes more
about calm, contentment. I think just that recognition increases empathy, both for yourself, your future
and past self, but also to folks around you who are at different life stages. It's not that they are less
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happy, it's how they experience happiness that shifts. But I think as interesting is we were looking at
what's the happiness that we enjoy from extraordinary experiences versus ordinary experiences or
extraordinary experiences being those once in a lifetime vacations, those life milestones, like going to a
concert or that super famous restaurant for that fabulous meal versus ordinary experiences being at the
kitchen table with your family, or noticing nature around you like the sunrise or a sunset, or enjoying a
treat like a glass of wine or a piece of chocolate. We were like, while there is happiness from these
various experiences, what we found is that among younger people, extraordinary experiences produce
greater happiness than ordinary experiences, but I think what was more interesting is that among older
people, those ordinary experiences produced as much happiness as the extraordinary, that is, as people
get older, they start to notice those simple joys more. But what I think is even more interesting is that
it's not about age per se, what happens is as we get older, we start recognizing that our time in life is
limited and finite and so it makes us start appreciating all of our time more, and we start savoring.
So actually among younger people, when they are led to recognize that their time is limited, then they
also savor more, they enjoy the joy from those simple pleasures. I think this is so important because in
the craziness of our lives and the hecticness of our days is there is so much happiness that's right there
in the time that we are already spending. Often, we don't notice it because that to-do list is in our minds
or we are on our phones, planning for thinking about what's next. Also, we are subject to hedonic
adaptation. So, this is our tendency to get used to things over time. So, when you do the same thing
again and again, when you are with the same person, it stops having the same emotional impact and it's
good that we adapt to bad stuff, but when we get used to these joys that are right there in our days,
such that we are missing out and we are already spending the time, but we are just missing the
happiness that's in the time that we are spending. I share strategies to offset hedonic adaptation to
notice the joys and so much of it is about just recognizing how precious our time is, realizing and
counting, actually counting times left is an exercise that I encourage folks to do because so often if you
look at the percentage of your total times of doing these things that you have left, so often it is far fewer
than you think, and that recognition makes you realize just how important and that you do carve out the
time, you are more likely to make the time for it, but also when you are spending the time, you are more
likely to pay attention because just how limited and precious and wonderful those moments are, say like
me on a coffee date with my daughter or at the kitchen table at night with your family, or when you are
on that morning run and the sun is rising, that there is just so much joy that's in the time that we are
already spending, it doesn't require more time. It's just making the most of the time that we have.
Jen: I love that and I can't think of a better message to end our time together, although I am sad that it's
coming to an end because I feel like I have at least 10 or 12 more questions for you. So maybe we need a
part two. Cassie, thank you so much for being on the show today for sharing your wisdom and for
anybody that wants to learn more and follow your work, obviously they can purchase your book Happier
Hour, but are there any other ways that they can follow your great work?
Cassie: Well, I don't spend much time on social media for the reasons I said. My website
https://www.cassiemholmes.com. That's where my latest research and where I am. But really it’s all in
the book. Folks can listen to it too, that’s a bundling option when you are in your car.
Jen: Love it. Well, thank you again.
I am so grateful Cassie could be with us today to talk about time and happiness. Thank you to our
producers RIVIT 360 and our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast series on Deloitte.com or you
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can visit various podcatchers using the keyword WorkWell, all one word, to hear more and if you like the
show, don't forget to subscribe so you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you would like
to hear on the WorkWell podcast series or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to
me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter at JenFish23. We are always open
to your recommendations and feedback, and of course, if you like what you hear, please share, post,
and like this podcast. Thank you and be well.
The information, opinions, and recommendations expressed by guests on this Deloitte podcast series
are for general information and should not be considered as specific advice or services.