Touch in a Digital Age with Dr. Richard Kearney

PJ is joined by philosopher and public intellectual Dr. Richard Kearney. Together, they discuss touch in a digital age grappling with a global pandemic.

Show Notes

In this episode, Dr. Richard Kearney discusses his newest book, Touch: Recovering Our Most Vital Sense, from the No Limits series, which  opens up a dialogue about excarnation in a digital world and the importance of physical touch. The conversation covers a wide range of philosophers and thinkers including Claude Levi-Strauss, Charles Taylor, Aristotle, and Plato.

To dig deeper into the philosophical idea of touch and excarnation, check out Touch: Recovering Our Most Vital Sense by Dr. Kearney here 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0231199538

For the video version, highlights, and daily motivational videos, subscribe to the Candid Goat Productions YouTube channel 👉 https://youtube.com/channel/UCTyPKRXmrNrxvbH1p5sNrJA

Or check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: Hello and welcome to chasing the Viythan. I'm your host. P. ▁j, wry, and I'm here

[pj_wehry]: today with Doctor Richard Keney, Uh, Doctor Kieney holds the Charles B C League

[pj_wehry]: chair of philosophy at Boston College, and has served as a visiting professor at

[pj_wehry]: the University College Dublin, the University of Parisorbne, the Australian

[pj_wehry]: Catholic University and the University of Ne. He's the author over twenty four

[pj_wehry]: books on Europan philosophy and literature, including two novels and a volume of

[pj_wehry]: poetry, and is edited or co edited. Twenty one more, Doctor Keney, So happy to

[pj_wehry]: have you here today.

[richard_kearney]: a pleasure to be with you.

[pj_wehry]: and today we're going to talk about your newest book which is uh, touch, Obviously

[pj_wehry]: by yourself. Um, and kind of the guiding question I thought we would go through is

[pj_wehry]: how has our dive into the digital space affected our sense of touch, And what are

[pj_wehry]: the consequences for the human experience? So

[richard_kearney]: H.

[pj_wehry]: again, happy to have you, If you don't mind giving us Ho. What made you think of

[pj_wehry]: this question in particular? and um, yeah, can pleasure to have you on?

[richard_kearney]: Well, I think one of the reasons this became an ▁urgent question for me was

[richard_kearney]: I was witnessing in my Uh classes as I teach. You know, the younger

[richard_kearney]: generation coming up and just in the social world around me, Um, the

[richard_kearney]: culture here in here in North America. I actually was born and grew up in

[richard_kearney]: in Ireland, and then studied in Paris,

[richard_kearney]: here in the in the United States and in Boston for the last twenty one

[richard_kearney]: years, and uh have been very aware Uh, living here, But it's true of the

[richard_kearney]: entire word now that the digital has become such a huge factor in our lives

[richard_kearney]: and in the way in which we communicate with each other, And this was of

[richard_kearney]: course accentuated uh, in the recent Um coval crisis, which has not yet

[richard_kearney]: left us. Alas, we're struggling through, but we learnt an awful lot. I

[richard_kearney]: think about

[richard_kearney]: just how important the digital

[richard_kearney]: is for us as a civilization to communicate with each other through

[richard_kearney]: distance, when we are for example, not able to do so in person because of

[richard_kearney]: of of covert infection and contagion, And so so we became extremely aware

[richard_kearney]: that we could none the less and

[richard_kearney]: go through our silver screens, and our technical screens. Am, are

[richard_kearney]: touchcreens

[richard_kearney]: literally uh, with the toch of a finger, and this is the curious paradox of

[pj_wehry]: Hm. yeah,

[richard_kearney]: the digital that in fact, am our

[richard_kearney]: our digital universe is now virtual. Um. but we do talk of a touch screen

[richard_kearney]: which ironically enables us to move beyond our tactile bodies and relate to

[richard_kearney]: others in a virtual simulated way. And yet digital also carries the sense

[richard_kearney]: not just of a code, a communication code, a sniper code, but our fingers,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: and that is the irony. We, we touch the touchscreen to escape from touch,

[richard_kearney]: if you like, or to go to transcend touch.

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: And so I think in in this Sa experience of that paradox, we also became

[richard_kearney]: aware not just of how wonderful it is to be able to use this um medium of

[richard_kearney]: communication and digital technology, but also of what we've lost

[richard_kearney]: in terms of Uh, leaving our bodies behind us a real lived bodily experience

[richard_kearney]: behind us, and this again became very evident. A join covered when we

[richard_kearney]: missed hugging people. We missed proximity, whether it be in a concert

[richard_kearney]: stadium, a football stadium, a pub, a restaurant, any kind of public

[richard_kearney]: setting, a schoolroom. in my case, you know all all my uh communications

[richard_kearney]: with students was was was through was through virtual communication, you

[richard_kearney]: know through through through through canvas, through through ▁zoom, and

[richard_kearney]: swan, So forth, And so you know, as Johnny Mitchell said in her famous

[richard_kearney]: Nineteen sixty Eight song, I think it was. You don't know what you've got

[richard_kearney]: till it's gone, and when we lost touch with touch, we became aware of just

[richard_kearney]: how important touch is and we saw this very dramatically and tragically and

[richard_kearney]: E in those scenes where people were dying and were not able to to be with

[pj_wehry]: yeah, h.

[richard_kearney]: their loved ones and

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[richard_kearney]: they, they reached out to to touch and be touched in with the caretakers

[richard_kearney]: and the doctors, who who bore witness to this, uh, and it was, it was very,

[richard_kearney]: very, um, painful for loved ones not to be with those, um, in person, you

[richard_kearney]: know. With tactie presence of holding their hands

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: when when they died, Uh of of covet, so um, you know, the first thing uh,

[richard_kearney]: we do when we're born is we we touch and we are touched. The child reaches

[richard_kearney]: out to to be touched, and the last thing we do when we die is to reach out

[richard_kearney]: to be touched. So it is um, a touch

[richard_kearney]: hunger phenomenon. At that, uh, we became a acutely aware of Uh. over the

[richard_kearney]: last two years,

[pj_wehry]: absolutely.

[pj_wehry]: and we even see that reflected in with cove, there was that constant discussion of

[pj_wehry]: the cost of lockdown right? It's not just that we, we also lost people to, and I

[pj_wehry]: can't remember the

[pj_wehry]: specific term, but basically deaths of depression cause

[richard_kearney]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: they were cut off from the outside world, and it's

[richard_kearney]: y,

[pj_wehry]: the very very similar thing. Um, you know you've mentioned it a couple of times

[pj_wehry]: here. Um, that whole phenomenon of uh, touching and being touched, Uh, the idea

[pj_wehry]: that uh, you, you mentioned Aristotle said it touches the foundation of all the

[pj_wehry]: senses.

[richard_kearney]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: Um. I, I would love you to talk a little bit about Uh, the other and the way that

[pj_wehry]: touch, Because you cannot, you can see without being seen, but you cannot touch

[pj_wehry]: without being touched. Um. How does that figure into our experience of the other?

[pj_wehry]: I think you even call it maybe the fundamental, uh, or the most important

[richard_kearney]: yeah, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: experience of the other in your book?

[richard_kearney]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: okay, well, I'd very be happy to to to go into that just before I do want

[pj_wehry]: Sure,

[richard_kearney]: to pick up on something you said

[pj_wehry]: yesir,

[richard_kearney]: a moment ago about depression.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: And and course will we lead into the importance of touch, but um, it. it is

[richard_kearney]: a phenomenon, Am observed by the way, statistically uh, well before

[richard_kearney]: covered. that the more time people

[richard_kearney]: spend, particularly the younger generations online,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: the more solitary they become,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: and the more they suffer from depression.

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: It. So here again, Touchhnger come comes into play because the more

[richard_kearney]: hyperconnected we are digitally in terms of digital codes,

[richard_kearney]: the more solitary,

[richard_kearney]: isolated and anguished we become at the level of our digital connections in

[richard_kearney]: terms of body to body contact.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: And this is an extraordinary phenomena that technology overcomes distance.

[richard_kearney]: but it doesn't bring nearness. And that is one of the great uh, paradoxes

[richard_kearney]: and perplexities of our of our digital civilization. I mean, I think the

[richard_kearney]: answer. I argue for this in the book is both the both senses of the

[richard_kearney]: digital. I mean we need a digital technology that. No,

[richard_kearney]: we, we. We should renounce that and go back to some. you know a pastor,

[richard_kearney]: you know, pasture land, pre pre, enlightenmented, pre industrial, and you

[pj_wehry]: you're not a lot. E.

[richard_kearney]: know we.

[richard_kearney]: No, I am not a lot.

[richard_kearney]: We need to keep our technology in one hand, but our our touch alive, our

[richard_kearney]: tactile sensitivity in the other, And and here we come back to. you know,

[richard_kearney]: your, your question, a broader question about a touch bringing us into

[richard_kearney]: contact with the other, so let me let. Let me go back to the beginning of

[richard_kearney]: the Western philosophy of touch, with with Aristotle, as you rightly say,

[richard_kearney]: and to some extent, in, in a dispute with Plato, the two great founders of

[richard_kearney]: of of Greek, Western philosophy,

[richard_kearney]: and Aristotle says, in his first book of of human Psychology, and

[richard_kearney]: seconding our Western civilization, and the day Animma was called on the

[richard_kearney]: soul. He points out that touch is the most fundamental of our senses,

[richard_kearney]: because basically it brings us into contact with the other, the other

[richard_kearney]: person, but other living beings, other sentiian beings, it can also be the

[richard_kearney]: animal universewll. And because you can see without being seen, as as you

[richard_kearney]: mentioned, you can hear without being heard, and you can taste without

[richard_kearney]: being tasted, but you cannot touch without being touchshipable, touched to

[richard_kearney]: touchable tangible, so there is a nakedness and vulnerability and

[richard_kearney]: hypersensitivity about our tactile being. Skin is our largest largest

[richard_kearney]: organ. It's a wrap ro organ. Apart from hair and our nails, it covers our

[richard_kearney]: entire, our entire body, two square meters. In fact, an average adult, and

[richard_kearney]: Um,

[richard_kearney]: as such we cover up, of course, for for all kinds of necessary reasons, but

[richard_kearney]: the basic vulnerability remains, and that vulrability for Aristotle was a

[richard_kearney]: good thing

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[richard_kearney]: because it kept us open to otherness You could look at and never be seen by

[richard_kearney]: anybody else. At least, in theory, in fact, it was one of the fantasies of

[richard_kearney]: a platonic figure called Guyjs that you could become all powerful if you

[richard_kearney]: wore a certain magic ring, and suddenly you became invisible, but you could

[richard_kearney]: see everybody else, and this, of course is what's permitted. also E with

[richard_kearney]: our digital

[richard_kearney]: Ah media,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: we can see others without being seen. I mean we can live in a in a world of

[richard_kearney]: of of of games, you know, video games, and and movies, and and social

[richard_kearney]: media, and what not, and never actually been be seen. I mean pornography is

[richard_kearney]: in obvious case, in

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: terms of sexuality, everything can go through the optical fantasy, but

[richard_kearney]: there is no a two way process. You

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: are, You are seeing but not being seen. So it's the reversibility through

[richard_kearney]: recursivity and the reciprocity of touching and being touched, which for

[richard_kearney]: Aristotle made us sensitive beings, and as such, alert to an attuned to to

[richard_kearney]: other people, and therefore more philosophical because we are questioning

[richard_kearney]: ourselves and not remaining within ourselves which sight allows, And so in

[richard_kearney]: that sense, Um, he says, it is our most philosophical sense, our most

[richard_kearney]: intelligent sense, because we're constantly open to surprise to something

[richard_kearney]: happening to us, rather than us controlling and mastering everything that

[richard_kearney]: happens out there, turning everybody else into an object, And that's where

[richard_kearney]: Aristotle differed. From Plato, because Plato defined the human

[richard_kearney]: as anthropos, Hence our word anthropology, and anthropos means the one who

[richard_kearney]: who who reaches up, who looks up and throop us, And, and of course, for

[richard_kearney]: our, for Plato, that meant standing up uh,

[richard_kearney]: on our, on our own two feet, so to speak, and reaching up with our eyes

[richard_kearney]: towards towards the heavens. and that made us intelligent. According to

[richard_kearney]: Platu,

[richard_kearney]: Transcending our quadruped existence with other sentient being, Plato was

[richard_kearney]: kind of hazardous. Our tactile bodies were hazardous

[pj_wehry]: right,

[richard_kearney]: because we were constantly vulnerable to the material pressures of the

[richard_kearney]: world, but through sight we could have this mastery, and this led

[richard_kearney]: eventually to um

[richard_kearney]: to to to Dekard's famous statement, as if sort of anaugrated modern Western

[richard_kearney]: philosophy with the I think, therefore I am. He could have said, I see

[richard_kearney]: there, for I am

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: thing, that we become masters and possessors of nature, and that we did we

[richard_kearney]: lived in since Plato through De Cart, right down into our own twenty first

[richard_kearney]: century. and the digital civilization technology

[richard_kearney]: accentuates this, and we live in a universe where we are in charge and

[richard_kearney]: Nature has become an object, and we've seen with the Climate crisis, E,

[richard_kearney]: exactly how dangerous that optocentric um world view has become. We have

[richard_kearney]: turned nature into an object, um,

[richard_kearney]: to our own, are in terms of our own mastery, subject to us,

[pj_wehry]: absolutely. Um, and I actually had written down here,

[pj_wehry]: uh, uh, to ask you about the question concerning technology because it does seem

[pj_wehry]: pretty obvious even as we're talking about the climate crisis. Uh, that when

[pj_wehry]: Hidger talks about us squaring things off to fit that to inframe them to fit them

[pj_wehry]: into the way we see things, it's much easier to see something and recognize a

[pj_wehry]: shape inside it and cut off

[richard_kearney]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: the rough corners. Whereas if you're touching something,

[pj_wehry]: the rough corners are always there. they're all like, Um, it, something. I wanted

[pj_wehry]: to uh, see it. Make sure I'm tracking with you. Uh, when? and I think it's in

[pj_wehry]: politics. I could be wrong, but Aristotle talks about man is a fundamentally

[pj_wehry]: social animal. Do you think that's part of the reason that that definition uh,

[pj_wehry]: kind of connects with his um. dispute with Plato. The fact that the man is

[pj_wehry]: inherently a social animal and that's a that is a touch oriented.

[richard_kearney]: yes, um, you can be aslopsist, that is to say, and alone in your ivory tar,

[richard_kearney]: Soullas Ipsay, from the Latin, and living in your own little ivory Tar. you

[richard_kearney]: know, fantasy world, Um, without seeing anybody else. In fact, some people

[richard_kearney]: you know read something in the Guardian newspaper. Somebody was saying, I

[richard_kearney]: like covert, because I don't want to be constant con, Like with other

[richard_kearney]: bodies, you

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: know, I like. I like my own world, and I'm quite sufficient in my digital

[richard_kearney]: universe. I mean, we even have Facebook now on under its new reinvented

[richard_kearney]: guys, Meta,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: so promising us the The. The. The ability one day to create our own, our

[richard_kearney]: our own sort of fantasy, simulated themselvesve. you know, Un, an android

[richard_kearney]: and Novader am a cyborg.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: That will be our own digital tone, and in that instance we will be free

[richard_kearney]: from disease, certainly free from other human beings if we don't want to,

[richard_kearney]: because we have our own perfectly. Am what's what I'm looking for

[richard_kearney]: immaculatequrhld. you know, am pure and and pristine and not vulnerable to

[richard_kearney]: the vicissitudes and contingencies of material messy existence. So yes, I

[richard_kearney]: think Aristotle knew that, because we are tactile and tangible beings, and

[richard_kearney]: subject to this reciprocity principle of touching and being touched, we are

[richard_kearney]: social. we are social animals, and's very interesting, Dreing covet, and

[richard_kearney]: how

[richard_kearney]: therapy through touch became actually so important. Um, and I don't just

[richard_kearney]: mean you know the Uh, deep tissue massage, and so on That was. That was

[richard_kearney]: very important too, and and doctors uh,

[richard_kearney]: made a very clear, Doctor Menel in Paris, for example, that all his

[richard_kearney]: patience should be touched, and where possible, Um. And and this is not

[richard_kearney]: just er. in in relation to covert it, it's in relation to to dying it in

[richard_kearney]: relation to disease. but people who, if you, if you, if you shake

[richard_kearney]: somebody's hand before you, you know, operate on them surgically. they will

[richard_kearney]: heal better afterwards. I mean, it's

[pj_wehry]: really,

[richard_kearney]: a very basic point. Yes,

[pj_wehry]: huh,

[richard_kearney]: it absolutely creates apport with the healer. My, my brother is a heart

[richard_kearney]: surgeon working in Ireland, and he has observed this. and but has also

[richard_kearney]: been. you know, Um,

[richard_kearney]: clinically clinically verified that Uh, it forms of present to person

[richard_kearney]: contacted communication prior to and subsequent to surgical intervention,

[richard_kearney]: And it greatly increases the the rate of recovery and at a very basic

[richard_kearney]: level, physiologically at touch, you know, it lowers our blood pressure. It

[richard_kearney]: Um lowers quaesal. The stress levels it, it alleviates anxiety, helps with

[richard_kearney]: sleep and digestion, just basic, basic, physiological, physiological facts

[richard_kearney]: and factors that are that are so so so crucial.

[pj_wehry]: uh, And so it sounds interesting. You mentioned a couple. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: I love the way that this conversation kind of Es and flows and goes around

[pj_wehry]: as I' I'm a devout Christian and uh, presbyterian, And so when you talk about the

[pj_wehry]: term excarnation,

[richard_kearney]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: Um versus incarnation, I assume that's kind of. I want to know where did you get

[pj_wehry]: the term excnation, And as we talk

[richard_kearney]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: about this loss of you know, you're talking about the silver, the Ivory tower.

[pj_wehry]: Excuse me,

[richard_kearney]: well,

[pj_wehry]: Um,

[pj_wehry]: Obviously, that's people. Like when people talk about becoming a cyborg in many

[pj_wehry]: ways, they are talking about fully inhabiting the digital space and they becoming

[richard_kearney]: yes,

[pj_wehry]: excarnate. Where did that term come from? And what are the consequences of our

[richard_kearney]: h.

[pj_wehry]: ex excarnation?

[richard_kearney]: yeah. in fact, the term came from my teacher in in Montreal, in the in the

[richard_kearney]: late seventies, Um. Charles Taylor, who uses it, you know, in use in

[richard_kearney]: Hislasses, but also in in his book And the age of Madernity, and uh,

[richard_kearney]: basically what he means And that's the meaning that I take up is an

[richard_kearney]: alternative, too. Ah, the incarnate universe, so excarnation is the

[richard_kearney]: opposite of incarnation and incarnation, For Taylor is for me, Am. as for

[richard_kearney]: you, I gather it does have a a Christian ring. I, too have a Christian

[richard_kearney]: formation. and so I. I took very seriously at a religious level, but you

[richard_kearney]: know, I take Aristotle seriously at the philosophical level, who argues for

[richard_kearney]: incarnation are embodied social existence in the world with other people,

[richard_kearney]: to our tact talent and untangible relationships. And and by the way, that

[richard_kearney]: can also include just when to mention this apprenticese before

[pj_wehry]: Yeahm,

[richard_kearney]: coming back to Christianity That this includes at a social level being

[richard_kearney]: touched by people. You don't leisureally have to be in physical proximity,

[richard_kearney]: though we usually mean that, but our colloquial phrases of being touched by

[richard_kearney]: somebody or finding something touching is a way which our bodies are

[richard_kearney]: emotions. Our feelings are in fact

[richard_kearney]: animated unaltered by our relationships to other people. So sometimes the

[richard_kearney]: most touching form of touch can be to not touch. You know there are

[richard_kearney]: appropriate forms of touch and not touching, But the body still remains

[richard_kearney]: tactile. We were, are still picking up vibrations from the the other

[richard_kearney]: person's of physical presence, even though we may not be, you know,

[richard_kearney]: Literally touching the person. we are by proxy in touch with the person,

[richard_kearney]: and to be in real communication is to be touched by somebody and to find

[richard_kearney]: what they say or do touching. So I just wanted a mention that in relation

[richard_kearney]: to Aristotle, that that touching and being touched is is the essence of

[richard_kearney]: our, as of our being as intelligent, sensitive being. to be sensitive is to

[richard_kearney]: be intelligent. Okay, so it's not about reading books. it's actually about

[richard_kearney]: a sensitivity at the level of our skins. And

[richard_kearney]: so you know, when you sayve of somebody that thin skinned you, you mean

[richard_kearney]: their sensitive. and and, and therefore they more likely to, as Aristotle

[richard_kearney]: puts it, and discern differences touch nos differences. he says You know

[richard_kearney]: not a basic level. That's the child who, no, hot and cold, Um, you know,

[richard_kearney]: hostile and inhospitable and the flesh of the mother, the breast. Whatever

[richard_kearney]: I mean, at very early level it, we start making distinctions, Um, and

[richard_kearney]: between presence and absence, and so on, So touch knows differences,

[richard_kearney]: because we are in contact with the with human other. Okay, let's go from

[richard_kearney]: Aristotle. Then the Ab

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: B C of Errist notn touch to Christianity, which makes a similar point, Am

[richard_kearney]: in relation to another tradition, the the Abrahamic Hebreke, a Judao,

[richard_kearney]: Christian, whatever you want, call it, and a Juda of Christian Islamic

[richard_kearney]: tradition, And that is based on revelation, and in Christianity, as you as

[richard_kearney]: you will know, E pj e. That comes with with the incarnation that the word

[richard_kearney]: became flesh. So the beginning of Christianity as a religion is an act of

[richard_kearney]: incarnation,

[richard_kearney]: and which is the opposite of excarnation. But we, we come back to that

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: because there has been a temptation even within Christianity, to deny that

[richard_kearney]: radical message, and to go for a more platonic excarned notion of the soul

[richard_kearney]: versus the body of this spirit versus the senses, and so on, which is

[richard_kearney]: actually betrayal of the true integrity of Christianity, which is that the

[richard_kearney]: word becomes flesh

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: and it still remains wordorried. but it becomes flesh, and you know Christ

[richard_kearney]: is flesh. Christ is also in relation to the Father and the Spirit. I mean

[richard_kearney]: that's the the mystery of the trinity, So there's always the flesh becoming

[richard_kearney]: more than itself, moving to our must go, so that the spirit can come. But

[richard_kearney]: the spirit comes. The Paroly comes again and again as flesh as the

[richard_kearney]: stranger, who, who, as Matthew twenty five makes clear, and E Giza receives

[richard_kearney]: a cup of cold water,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[richard_kearney]: giving and receiving bread and water and wine to our fellow humans, is an

[richard_kearney]: act of constant, what I call Annacarnation. That is to say, the incarnate

[richard_kearney]: Christ is coming back again and again and again, as he promises to do In

[richard_kearney]: Matthew twenty fifth, in twenty five, In the least of these, you know the

[richard_kearney]: person literally, there, who who who shares food and water with you, and,

[richard_kearney]: and and usually we think that as the other the stranger you know, but

[richard_kearney]: those say to crack, But we didn't know. We didn't recognize you and he says

[richard_kearney]: I was the stranger, Hospe. he repeates, beats the word and serve of the

[richard_kearney]: root of our word, hospitality. Hospys. I was a stranger. You didn't

[richard_kearney]: recognize me, but I was a stranger anyway. But back to the life of of of

[richard_kearney]: Christ, If you think about it Okay, The first act of of of Christianity is

[richard_kearney]: is the Incarnation, the emptying of divinity conosis into into human flesh,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, hm,

[richard_kearney]: And so Christ is born a born, and in a stable with animals, And we think

[richard_kearney]: about

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: it very. It's actti

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: andtangible We know the least of these. He's born as a stranger in a. in an

[richard_kearney]: end there's no room from him in the ins of of of of of of of Betherem, So

[richard_kearney]: he, he ends up in a stable with animals and animals are very important. You

[richard_kearney]: know. Christ begins uh, with an animal, animals breathing on him. I mean as

[richard_kearney]: we as we see from our Christmas cribs. you know there is the child Jesus

[richard_kearney]: surrounded by animals, and he ends his days on on a donkey. You

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: know Pam Someunday riding into Jerusem, and

[richard_kearney]: so there is that extraordinary identification with animals. Although

[richard_kearney]: Christianity has not been great, Uh, for much of it its history in

[richard_kearney]: acknowledging our rapoort with the with the animal with the animal

[richard_kearney]: universe. In fact, Buddhism, some of the Eastern religions have been much

[richard_kearney]: better at that, The Hindus. Have you know, monkey gods and elephant gods,

[richard_kearney]: and so on, And Buddhists believe in the sacredness of all Senti beings. Now

[richard_kearney]: that is true of Christianity also, but apart from some rare exceptions

[richard_kearney]: after Christ, like Francis, and of Vasisi, and Uh others, you know who who,

[richard_kearney]: saint Kevin, and in Ireland, who befriended animals,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: Um, and the natural universe, Uh, Hildergar, a bing, and in in Germany, for

[richard_kearney]: example, the Ging of all things Veriditta, you know of nature, but for the

[richard_kearney]: for. for For for long periods of time, Christianity was very platonic. It

[richard_kearney]: was jeelist of M of of spirit, and so versus the body, and therefore Ah led

[richard_kearney]: to a very very, um.

[richard_kearney]: I would say pathological view, in fact of sexuality, for instance,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[richard_kearney]: which we see nowadays tragically and um scandalously revealed in child

[richard_kearney]: abuse, you know, in in in France and Are, and Canada E. Every day you open

[richard_kearney]: the newspaper, you realize that certain religions um,

[richard_kearney]: because they have practicsed a form of puritanism, basically, um,

[richard_kearney]: you know it used to be Victorian Puritanism and Johnsonsm, but uh, you know

[richard_kearney]: it. It led to this view that you women can't be priests in certain

[richard_kearney]: churches, and you can't get married, and and uh sexuality is forbidden.

[richard_kearney]: Chastity is the only way, and of course that led to the to the opposite. I

[richard_kearney]: mean,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: it's one of the ironies that pornography and Puritanism share this in

[richard_kearney]: common. they are. They, both, um, are excarnate experiences. They both take

[richard_kearney]: us away from the flesh,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: and Um, and that leads to I think

[richard_kearney]: perverse human behaviors, and you know, not just in the churches, but also

[richard_kearney]: you know in our entertainment industry, as as the Metu movement, Um

[richard_kearney]: reminded us, there is good touch and bad touch, and one of the reasons why

[richard_kearney]: there has been so much bad touch, so to speak, perverse touch, abusive

[richard_kearney]: touch. A manipulative of touch is because we have not been incarnate

[richard_kearney]: beings. We have been excarnate beings living at a distance from ourselves,

[richard_kearney]: living outside of ourselves, Uh, living in an alien natated fashion to our

[richard_kearney]: own bodies. So then the body becomes manipulal Manipular Bell is'

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: not us. It's a thing. it's an object. It's an instrument, and that's one of

[richard_kearney]: the great dangers. and just back to to to Christianity again. For a moment,

[richard_kearney]: I mean, I have a chapter on on on on Christ, and Um,

[richard_kearney]: working through his his various miracles. That, as I say, he begins and

[richard_kearney]: ends with animals, and he begins and ends his mission and ministry with

[richard_kearney]: with an act of sharing food. E, you know when he's thirty he he. he changes

[richard_kearney]: the water into wine at the marriage feast of Cana, So a marriage, a sharing

[richard_kearney]: of food and wine, and he ends his his time at the last supper again sharing

[richard_kearney]: food, and when he's resurreted, What does he do First thing? he comes to

[richard_kearney]: the disciples on La Galilee, and says Um, coming at breakfast. He prepares

[richard_kearney]: food for them when he appears at them in the in room he says, Have you any

[richard_kearney]: fish to eat? And then at a mause with the two disciples, they break bread.

[richard_kearney]: They recognize him, not in what he says, not in what he looks like Birthho,

[richard_kearney]: they do not recognize him Opically. they recognize him Tacti, le.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: In the sharing of the food, and Christ's remission from the age of thirty

[richard_kearney]: to thirty three was constantly. What? Touching people in order to heal

[richard_kearney]: them. It's extraordinary If you look at the miracles of healing. They're

[richard_kearney]: about touching. Ninety per of them Involve him taking the young girl's

[richard_kearney]: hand, putting his you know finger into the ear of the deaf person and

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, right,

[richard_kearney]: placing his hand on the shoulder of or being touched by

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: you, Say you know the woman with the hamorrageing,

[richard_kearney]: the bleed. I mean,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: she touches the hem of his garment, but it so touch that she's healed. So

[richard_kearney]: Christ is constantly incarnive as a tangible tacta, being touching and

[richard_kearney]: being touched. And And and that's not a purely materialist statement. It is

[richard_kearney]: a spiritual statement. Touch

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: is spiritual. as much as is it is physical.

[pj_wehry]: it's really. Uh, even as you mentioned that, the example comes to mind and I'm

[pj_wehry]: still walking through all themifications of him making mud and putting it on

[richard_kearney]: Hm.

[pj_wehry]: the blind man's eyes, which is Um. and everything you said here, Uh, from the

[pj_wehry]: Christian perspective, is pulled out of the Old Testament, right, Like the idea of

[pj_wehry]: the word becoming flesh. I mean

[richard_kearney]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: that is rooted in the idea that God created everything and said it was good

[richard_kearney]: yes,

[pj_wehry]: and that insight. Uh, you know it, just like you said Y, the

[pj_wehry]: uh, the temptation to become platonic and say material is bad. But again again we

[pj_wehry]: see the uh, Christian church return to. I mean,

[richard_kearney]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: that's not what Genesis says. Um, so yes, I'm I definitely

[richard_kearney]: absolutely know.

[pj_wehry]: feel like I'm tracking with you. You. good.

[richard_kearney]: y, no, no, no, but I. I totally agree it. you know. The the good news. So

[richard_kearney]: to speak about the Incarnation doesn't begin with. The life of Christ,

[richard_kearney]: absolutely precedes

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[richard_kearney]: in the In. in you know of Christians, the Old Testament and the Torah, and

[richard_kearney]: the Tarmod. The body is absolutely centr, and the body is good,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: as you say in Genesis, six Days of Creation, and and on the seventh and

[richard_kearney]: Yave, you know the creator Yachtzar says it is good, and

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: that includes all the animals, not just the humans, obviously, but all the

[richard_kearney]: animals and all

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: the living creatures that you know that crawl on the bottom of the sea. It

[richard_kearney]: is good. All of it is good. Not that we cannot introduce evil into the

[richard_kearney]: world, but it is good as created, and that includes the body, And that so

[richard_kearney]: the incarnational message begins with Genesis.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: There are two incarnations. The first is the creation of the world in

[richard_kearney]: Genesis, and the second for Christians is Christianity, but even within

[richard_kearney]: Judaism, the the Hebrew Bible, again and again, touch is important. I mean

[richard_kearney]: when when Jacob, Um, you know, receives the word, the word of God, Where

[richard_kearney]: the name of Israel,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: it is after he has um,

[richard_kearney]: wrestled,

[richard_kearney]: you know, hand to hand

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: onbat with God. The the dark stranger in the night,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: Um, and and he he he, he limps ever after. You know, he carries the the

[richard_kearney]: limp of of the mark of of that contact, that physical tactile contact with

[richard_kearney]: God. Um. So it's It's kind of a remarkable thing. just how incarnate Uh,

[richard_kearney]: the the the Two Testaments are, And I have some Islamic scholars who were

[richard_kearney]: working on Islamic

[richard_kearney]: e readings of touch, and so on, and they have reminded me. I mean, I've

[richard_kearney]: been very ignorant of the Islamic tradition, but of the importance, for

[richard_kearney]: example, sharing food in the hash. You know, the annual ritual of

[richard_kearney]: hospitality. It's all about the sharing of food, so I think it's throughout

[richard_kearney]: the Abrahamic traditions, but certainly in terms of you know, my own

[richard_kearney]: Christian upbringing formation. Uh, I was very, very removed by by this

[richard_kearney]: emphasis constantly on healing through touch

[richard_kearney]: that Christ represented, and just if I might add another word on animals,

[pj_wehry]: absolutely

[richard_kearney]: because I do think Christian Christians haven't been great E. In in in

[richard_kearney]: terms of their relationship to to to animals, am E. And and I think this is

[richard_kearney]: a certain forgetfulness of of of how Christ opens us to all sentient

[richard_kearney]: beings. I' mean curiously enough, even with the Syro Phoenician woman when

[richard_kearney]: she comes and ask for the healing of her daughter, and she says, Look,

[richard_kearney]: you're feeding the dog. Would you treat me as well as you treat the dock,

[pj_wehry]: yes.

[richard_kearney]: and uh, giving crumbs to the dog and Jesus as your faith is made. And

[richard_kearney]: again, it's the identification with the animal who supposedly is the least

[richard_kearney]: of all creatures, But in fact, Um, is is is capable of of being healed, so

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: to speak of, and bringing healing and ding covet. E. many many people sort

[richard_kearney]: animal therapy with horses, dalcrons dogs. Because

[richard_kearney]: if you think of it in in in terms of of Um, horses, they're newly all skin.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yes,

[richard_kearney]: You know

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: they have hoof and mains, but apart from that their hyper alert and they're

[richard_kearney]: heard animals coming back to Aristotle and the social

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: in our social being. I mean,

[richard_kearney]: in our social being. I mean,

[richard_kearney]: horses are herd animals. They don't prey on any other animal. they don't

[richard_kearney]: eat meat. they don't kill what they eat. They're herbivous and they're

[richard_kearney]: hyperattuned hypersensitive. That's why you can actually ride a horse with

[richard_kearney]: the tip of your finger. They are so sensitive, and why they spokeoo easily,

[richard_kearney]: You know, because they are aware of of danger. You know from a mile off,

[richard_kearney]: for you know,

[richard_kearney]: twenty miles off they have this hyper hypersensitivity, and dolphins,

[richard_kearney]: likewise are all skin and we' very therapeutic. not just for you know,

[richard_kearney]: inco. that the need became accentuated then, but autistic people, tenquly

[richard_kearney]: depressed people have found great healing and dogs. Of course pets. We're

[richard_kearney]: huge just to have some some living thing to touch

[pj_wehry]: absolutely

[richard_kearney]: and to be touched by. So, so, um, that's part of our response. I think to

[richard_kearney]: the climate crisis is a new relationship to the animal world and the

[richard_kearney]: sentient living world around us, which is not necessarily human. We've been

[richard_kearney]: very anthropocentric, being optocentric. that is eyes centered, e y e. and

[richard_kearney]: has also led to an anthropocentric universe. And we need to realize that we

[richard_kearney]: are not just some a you know, masters of the universe. We are guests on

[richard_kearney]: this earth and the earth hosts us. and

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[richard_kearney]: until we realize that that we, we are touched by the Earth as much as we

[richard_kearney]: touch it, we're going to remain in deep trouble.

[pj_wehry]: I think there's a a

[pj_wehry]: really loved your discussion of taste. Um,

[richard_kearney]: H.

[pj_wehry]: as we talk about touch senses difference right,

[pj_wehry]: so we look at. Uh, Going back to what we were talking about the Abraham tradition,

[pj_wehry]: You have Abraham

[pj_wehry]: welcoming the strangers, And what does

[richard_kearney]: correct.

[pj_wehry]: that involved? That involves food? And

[richard_kearney]: exactly.

[pj_wehry]: even you mentioned Jesus turning water into wine. Um, I think it something that

[pj_wehry]: correlates with what you were talking on your book. That's very interesting Is.

[pj_wehry]: it's not just that he turned it into wind, It's not just not just for drinking. He

[pj_wehry]: turned it into the best wine,

[richard_kearney]: hm.

[pj_wehry]: so the taste matters too, like

[richard_kearney]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: sensing the differences in the and the better quality.

[pj_wehry]: So when when we talked about even like uh, cyesthesia, Uh, those sorts of things.

[pj_wehry]: Um,

[pj_wehry]: can you talk a little bit about how touch relates to taste, especially in the the

[pj_wehry]: creation of discretion and prudence?

[richard_kearney]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: Sensing difference

[pj_wehry]: and

[richard_kearney]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: even I. I feel like our loss of practical wisdom in today's culture?

[richard_kearney]: yeah, Yp, and it's very interesting by the way in covet. That one is the

[richard_kearney]: thing. one of the first senses to go. I mean, we weren't allowed touch. Of

[richard_kearney]: course, you know, social distc, and all that, but uh, with taste, people

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[richard_kearney]: lost theirs.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, it was

[richard_kearney]: E.

[pj_wehry]: a little ironic. yeah,

[richard_kearney]: y. Yeah, and I mean, this is one of the the frightening things about you

[richard_kearney]: know a pandemic virus like that that it can deprive us of our two most

[richard_kearney]: basic human senses

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: and and viting senses, which for Pl plater with the lowest, but which, for

[richard_kearney]: Aristotle and and Christianity in a different tradition, were I think

[richard_kearney]: arguably the highest. but yeah, let let's say a little bit about taste,

[richard_kearney]: Then glad you picked up on the well. There's two different kinds of tastes.

[richard_kearney]: There is taste, which is unilateral.

[richard_kearney]: That is to say, you uh, consume

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: uh things

[richard_kearney]: through taste. So aristotle Co, you know demises is gluttony's. one

[pj_wehry]: yes, right,

[richard_kearney]: of the vices, Um, good taste is when touch comes into play.

[richard_kearney]: It's it's therefore tactful taste

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: tact coming from from touch. Uh, what we would call you know, true taste

[richard_kearney]: good taste and that is discerning, So it's when you eat. Not just take the

[richard_kearney]: example of eating, since we we talking, but

[pj_wehry]: that's

[richard_kearney]: food and Abraham, sharing food with the strangers, Christ, cherring food

[richard_kearney]: with his disciples, and so, and and as all sharing food, you know

[richard_kearney]: Thanksgiving,

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[richard_kearney]: Christmas, whatever feast we have,

[pj_wehry]: yes.

[richard_kearney]: and Hanka, you know, Uh, the Hash. Whatever attrition we come from, we

[richard_kearney]: share food, and in that instance ceremony is very important where we allow

[richard_kearney]: our taste to become tactful, so for instance, in certain religious street

[richard_kearney]: you would have

[richard_kearney]: you know grace before meals you would you would pray and give thanks to the

[richard_kearney]: harvest and the harvessters to the animals who provided the, the, the meat

[richard_kearney]: or the fish or whatever,

[richard_kearney]: And this is very important that instead of just consuming

[richard_kearney]: we actually

[richard_kearney]: am, we actually taste,

[richard_kearney]: and this is where to be in, in the French term to have good taste and

[richard_kearney]: Aristotle. Actually says, as those who, who are connoisseurs of wines and

[richard_kearney]: good dishes now we arguably do to be Elis' teer cat. Not everybody can

[richard_kearney]: afford good wines and good dishes, but everybody in eat in a thankful,

[richard_kearney]: sensitive, discerning way where you appreciate and are attentive to what

[richard_kearney]: you are eating. and and, of course, in the eucharist Eucharistic

[richard_kearney]: ceremonies, this is huge because it's actually the body of God that you

[richard_kearney]: arere talking about, and this is. this is very fundamental to many

[richard_kearney]: traditions. Other traditions is not necessarily. You know the Christ figure

[richard_kearney]: it. You know in Mexican religions and theiranimous religions, who was

[richard_kearney]: mushrooms? You know it can be. It can be different things that your are

[richard_kearney]: tasting. The first word for God in Sanskrit in Hinduism was Anna food.

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[richard_kearney]: So but it's not food that you consume lutinously in one way fashion. It's a

[richard_kearney]: two way reciprocal process and that's where taste becomes tactful and

[richard_kearney]: interestingly, Am our word for

[richard_kearney]: for for being intelligent in our relations with other people and things,

[richard_kearney]: and is savvy To have savvy, And where does that come from? savvy. A word

[richard_kearney]: savvy, to be kind of knowing and discerning in our relationship to other,

[richard_kearney]: which it means actually, to be tactful. it comes from savoir

[richard_kearney]: to know, which comes from savouret to savour,

[richard_kearney]: which comes from Sapienzia, The The, the Greek Latin root. you know,

[richard_kearney]: sapians, sapenza, separate, which means to taste. Wisdom was to taste. It's

[richard_kearney]: an extraordinary, an extraordinary thing. Sappare comes from, Save

[richard_kearney]: saparate, su

[richard_kearney]: sa savor, Savvy, And so

[pj_wehry]: Is that forgive me for interrupting?

[richard_kearney]: it's a very fundamental thing that carried on our everyday language, yet,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, and that is that where Homo Sapiians comes from, as well, Yeah, D, was that

[richard_kearney]: so

[richard_kearney]: yes, yes, absolutely homes, homoscepiians means. Obviously, you know the

[pj_wehry]: just

[richard_kearney]: the we translate is a rational man, and but actually it's the tasting are

[richard_kearney]: tasteful. Now That's what means the sensitive, tasteful tactful savvy human

[richard_kearney]: being is homoshappians. But we've last, we've lost that tactful taste. and

[richard_kearney]: by turning everything or so much into consumption and consumerism where

[richard_kearney]: it's a unilateral one way devouring

[richard_kearney]: of of commodities, food as a commodity,

[pj_wehry]: yeah. it's really interesting you talk about that. this is a discussion that

[pj_wehry]: happens in my household. Um. the American attitude towards food is not healthy.

[pj_wehry]: Like, as a general rule, and

[richard_kearney]: Hm,

[pj_wehry]: uh, even as it, even as people try to become healthier by losing weight, One of

[pj_wehry]: the ways that they try to solve it is thinking of food as fuel,

[pj_wehry]: and

[richard_kearney]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I actually think that's a step further in the wrong direction. Even if you can

[pj_wehry]: solve you, you're losing

[pj_wehry]: in many ways what it means to be human. and instead of eating with

[richard_kearney]: hmmm,

[pj_wehry]: thankfulness, which I think is a better answer, and savouring what you have.

[pj_wehry]: I, uh, sorry, you just

[pj_wehry]: eevaluate some of things that in my own life, I'm like, Uh, you like Okay doesn't

[pj_wehry]: always have to be food doesn't always have to be special And that's kind of the

[pj_wehry]: answercause. Like when we treat ourselves, we treat ourselves with ice cream, but

[pj_wehry]: I think that's because we have uh, the

[pj_wehry]: oages of things like sugar and fat and all that sort of thing is uh, rejection of

[pj_wehry]: taste and it's uh, a focus on commodity, And so what we do is we distort our taste

[pj_wehry]: And so what? we? instead of returning to food is fu. what we should do is return

[pj_wehry]: to uh, moderation and focusing on a taste that's in line with what true health is.

[richard_kearney]: that's a very good way putting it, and very aristotelian. Actually, he goes

[richard_kearney]: for the middle way, what he calls the golden mean, because aristot,

[richard_kearney]: although he doesn't make this precise point, it's a very good one you're

[richard_kearney]: making. P. ▁j. But it it would go something like this, overeating and

[richard_kearney]: undereing are both

[richard_kearney]: forms of of a of elementary abuse. We're using food in both instances. In

[richard_kearney]: the first instance, gourmand is just to fill ourselves up and satisfy us,

[richard_kearney]: but by dulling the senses, in fact, because overeating du your

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[richard_kearney]: senses, Um, and and this constant need to to be filled and refilled again

[richard_kearney]: and again like a car. You know you got

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: to go to the gasp and got to go to the supermarket. The fridge has to be

[richard_kearney]: full, Um, but undereing

[richard_kearney]: in even to the point of anorexia, And you know God knows that can be very.

[richard_kearney]: You know very sad and and tragic situation

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: for people, but it's still food being utilized

[richard_kearney]: in terms of almost being weaponnized.

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: You know, in in terms of overeating, terms of expenditure, wealth and sort

[richard_kearney]: of indulgence, Bltony, am avarice, and in, in the case of undereing, it too

[richard_kearney]: can be uh, a manipulation of the body to fit into a certain image, which

[richard_kearney]: sometimes you know, can can be fed by social media. as we as we know, Am

[richard_kearney]: the hyper hyper thin, almost um. You know

[richard_kearney]: it's hard to pristine. you know Peter Pan body. whatever,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: It's almost expnous, You know it's it's

[pj_wehry]: yes.

[richard_kearney]: a movement towards excarnation, and Aw,

[pj_wehry]: Well it is it is our excnent be cause it's photo edited like

[richard_kearney]: it is

[pj_wehry]: they're not real. You're not real people. so go ahead,

[richard_kearney]: correct. Yeah, no, no, no, but that's absolutely right, and in anorexia and

[richard_kearney]: those who who suffer from, and it can be form of addiction, you see

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: it, it can be a very sad thing. Um, just as food and overeating, Bolimiia

[richard_kearney]: and undereing are forms of addiction, but um e. yes it it. it's very often

[richard_kearney]: living according to a certain psychic optical image of what you should be.

[richard_kearney]: Because, if you say to somebody who's anorexic, they say I, I feel. why.

[richard_kearney]: Why aren't you eating? I, I'm too fat, and you say, but you're not that.

[richard_kearney]: You're so thin, but they don't see themselves as thick.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: They're actually caught in this, this um,

[richard_kearney]: you know, cropped image of themselves, which sometimes is fed to them

[richard_kearney]: virtually

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: through the entertainment industry or whatever social media, intentionally

[richard_kearney]: or otherwise, but

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: it is an example of where food can be abused. you know, in our digital

[richard_kearney]: communication universe.

[pj_wehry]: absolutely. um. one thing I, I definitely wanted to touch on. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: I just did. um, uh, an interview with a friend of mine who grew up Uh, in

[pj_wehry]: Cambodia. She was

[richard_kearney]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: a missionary kid, grew up. Uh, you know when she was five, she moved from the U S

[pj_wehry]: to Cambodia, And so we talked about what it meant to be a third culture kid. And

[pj_wehry]: you

[richard_kearney]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: talk about Um. in the West, We very problem, uh, and fixing problem oriented,

[pj_wehry]: right solution oriented, and that can be really good for medicine.

[pj_wehry]: But where we do fail, and

[pj_wehry]: for the length this question, but uh, we failed to abide with people when we can't

[pj_wehry]: fix the problem. We failed to abide with prolonged chronic terminal pain. And uh,

[pj_wehry]: so

[pj_wehry]: the The and I, I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this. But uh so my

[pj_wehry]: friend, Uh one? Everyone lived to go. It was very communal, right, The digital

[pj_wehry]: space at that time has now become more prevalent in Cambodia, but at the time it

[pj_wehry]: wasn't a. Obviously, they were just getting. they got electricity. I think like

[pj_wehry]: four or five years before she got there. Um, so the digital world is just catching

[pj_wehry]: up, so uh, they had a sudden death in one of the families and the mother came out.

[pj_wehry]: She lost her daughter

[pj_wehry]: and she was just screaming and everyone came from the neighborhood and just sat

[pj_wehry]: around her. She tried to hurt herself and they stopped her,

[pj_wehry]: but other than that she went in and she grabbed every piece of glassware she had

[pj_wehry]: in the house and she threw it against a tree and just said I've been forsaken uh

[pj_wehry]: by by Buddha by my ancestors, And everyone just sat like the whole neighborhood

[pj_wehry]: just sat and watched in silence, just making sure she didn't hurt herself. But

[pj_wehry]: they let her smash everything and they just sat with her. No one said anything,

[pj_wehry]: and to me that, I mean, that's an completely alien experience.

[pj_wehry]: Um,

[pj_wehry]: is that something? Uh? is that connected in any way too? like this whole optical

[pj_wehry]: versus um,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, touch discussion.

[richard_kearney]: well, I think it does and mean something I talk about in the book When I do

[richard_kearney]: get to, you know, psychiatry, Andychtherapy, and medicine. I draw very much

[richard_kearney]: from the Greek tradition, and which course is still alive in our medical

[richard_kearney]: practices In the Wes, this state mean we talk a lot about they, Christian

[richard_kearney]: and Biblicalristian stories of healing. But in the Greek tradition, in the

[richard_kearney]: great Roman tradition, there is what's called Eslepian tradition, which

[richard_kearney]: comes from Eslepius, who was one of the two founding fathers of Western

[richard_kearney]: medicine. There was hypocrates, Hence we have the Hypocratic oath, and that

[richard_kearney]: was about Um. A management of pain and

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: curing of pain was always a curing model, and we need that gotten hoose.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: You know, If you have you want surgery, you want your you. you want

[richard_kearney]: intervention management. And then there was the Elepian, which was a

[richard_kearney]: different approach. and and both were compatible, of course, and in fact

[richard_kearney]: complimentary. And that was not about fixing through a cure, but being with

[richard_kearney]: the person in their pain. And it was presp supposesd that if you were to be

[richard_kearney]: in a sleepian healer, you would Ah, be a wounded healer. So Asleius himself

[richard_kearney]: was wounded, so he could recognize wounds and other others, and so he

[richard_kearney]: healed them through touch

[richard_kearney]: through M. ceremonies of bathing and incubation, a herbal,

[richard_kearney]: um, uh, remedies, and

[richard_kearney]: and a contact with with animals. Also,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[richard_kearney]: even in the dreams, the sleepers would appear as a cock or as a serpent, or

[richard_kearney]: as a an animal horse. And so it was kind of an integral

[richard_kearney]: return to our body and are suffering with others, so that you could have a

[richard_kearney]: healing E. even if they could not be acuring that you would ex. You know

[richard_kearney]: you, you, you would help the other person to live their woundedness. The

[richard_kearney]: only implications between were all wounded at birth. You know were were

[richard_kearney]: wounded E. And we carry wounds within us. every separation from the womb

[richard_kearney]: from the family from from loved ones, and on life is about learning to live

[pj_wehry]: yeah. Mhm.

[richard_kearney]: with separation,

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[richard_kearney]: and then re connection.

[richard_kearney]: So the the Eleppian tradition, um, where people were healed by being with

[richard_kearney]: each other in in a very embodied ritualistic way, was very important, and a

[richard_kearney]: lot of what's called alternative medicine today is actually recognizing

[richard_kearney]: that, whether it's you know sillicybine in, in terms of of of of healing,

[richard_kearney]: uh, depression, uh, or or massage therapy, you know deep tissue massage, uh

[richard_kearney]: therapy, herbal medicine, which is huge, now coming back again and again,

[richard_kearney]: and a a certain recognition of indigenous traditions. In that regard, you

[richard_kearney]: know yoga, breathing meditation, and getting back in touch with one's

[richard_kearney]: feelings and the body, and so on that that's all very e sleepppiian. So it

[richard_kearney]: comes back to your Cambodian situation where you you, you abide with the

[richard_kearney]: person in their pain, and by sharing the pain, Uh it it, a certain healing

[richard_kearney]: comes even if they cannot be cured. So I think that's very important

[richard_kearney]: because we live in a cure culture where you know the temptation is to

[richard_kearney]: reduce everything to imaging E. Even the technology of surgery now can be

[richard_kearney]: done, you know, through all kinds of lasers and and microscopes and scans,

[richard_kearney]: and that's hugely important, but we must never forget. in the hypocratic

[richard_kearney]: management, technological management of pain and insurance companies and

[richard_kearney]: everything that involves, we must never forget the moment Pro was called in

[richard_kearney]: the past, the bedside manner

[pj_wehry]: yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah,

[richard_kearney]: where the heater at the doctor would be would be there. Um,

[richard_kearney]: taking you know the case history of the person

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: and attending to them, I in in in in terms of a presence, and very often

[richard_kearney]: you know the handshake or whatever it happens to be, my brother, works in

[richard_kearney]: palliative care. I mentioned that earlier he. he has argued, uh, uh, very

[richard_kearney]: much at Ctum. Indeed, in the book, Um, for the importance of of tactile, um

[richard_kearney]: Eslipian, healing, Uh, for those who are dying 'cause you can't cure, you

[richard_kearney]: can't cure death,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: but you can heal people of their death, anxieties

[pj_wehry]: yes.

[richard_kearney]: of their of their panic and their fear. Because that it's even worse. The

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: psychic pain of fear is even worse than are certain, is bad as very often

[richard_kearney]: as a physical pain which can be treated, and and should and must be treated

[richard_kearney]: you know with with painkllers, But it theres a psychic pain that can only

[richard_kearney]: be treated in this e sleepppian fashion of being with being with, and

[richard_kearney]: that's a very tangible tactile experience.

[pj_wehry]: and it has physical repercussions right.

[richard_kearney]: Yes,

[pj_wehry]: even though it's psychic it it has physical repercussions because of that

[pj_wehry]: fundamental connection

[richard_kearney]: absolutely absolutely. In fact, Ley Strauss, the great anthropologist of

[richard_kearney]: the twentieth century, and gives an example of

[richard_kearney]: of this

[richard_kearney]: where he's working, not in Cambodia this time, but he iss working in Brazil

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[richard_kearney]: and in the Amazon, Uh Amazon jungle, And he comes across a community

[richard_kearney]: where they ever. He works with them. He does field work with them and

[richard_kearney]: theyver practice which he describes,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: Um. Where this woman is is is uh dying, She's

[pj_wehry]: yep,

[richard_kearney]: bleeding to death. She's uh, trying to give birth to a child Iss blocked in

[richard_kearney]: the in the in the birth canal. And so she's bleating to death, and the

[richard_kearney]: community come together and they sit around her in this little hut, and

[richard_kearney]: they, they. they share a story together. as they hold her hand and her

[richard_kearney]: feet. They tell a story about a a hapless victim caught in a cave, and

[richard_kearney]: there's a monster outside and they all recite the story, Including the

[richard_kearney]: woman who's who's dying of. of you know hemeraging. She's hammaging to

[richard_kearney]: death, and Um, they tell the story of how this victim then escapes from the

[richard_kearney]: cave and overcomes the monster,

[pj_wehry]: h.

[richard_kearney]: and at that moment

[richard_kearney]: the the young pregnant woman gives gives birth to the child and he says

[richard_kearney]: Halys. he says, Hiss mind over matter is actually sharing together at a a

[richard_kearney]: story and the emotion of cattharsis of that story. It's effect

[richard_kearney]: that actually, then allows the body to relax to such an extent the fear

[richard_kearney]: goes. The blood pressure goes down, Corzal, you know is lessened and Uh,

[richard_kearney]: Because of that muscle memory of a story of liberation which they share

[richard_kearney]: together.

[richard_kearney]: it actually works.

[richard_kearney]: A miracle happens and and the child is born. So it's another example you

[richard_kearney]: know of of how the Elepian tradition of being with somebody sharing a story

[richard_kearney]: taking time with them when no surgical intervention was possible, Uh,

[richard_kearney]: because there they were in the in in the middle of a an Amazonian jungle.

[richard_kearney]: But Um, being with the person in this case with sort of a touching

[richard_kearney]: narrative. so to speak, a shared myth of the liberation of of a victim, Uh,

[richard_kearney]: from from a monster. The monster here, being pain and disease can can bring

[richard_kearney]: about an extraordiniary. and I think that's how how Christ worked By the

[richard_kearney]: way. I mean,

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[richard_kearney]: it's how the gealers work. Christ was a wounded healer as well,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah.

[richard_kearney]: you know. And Um, he was the crucified one and he was the the forsaken one.

[richard_kearney]: And so on. It's because of Christ's wounds and the assumption of his

[richard_kearney]: wounds, that he, he was able to to be a heater and continue to be hero.

[pj_wehry]: Absolutely. that's um,

[pj_wehry]: really interesting and very kind of inspiring and it's so different from the way

[pj_wehry]: that we would ever approach things in our culture and a a developed culture.

[richard_kearney]: And yet it's there. you know. it has been. It has been kept even

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[richard_kearney]: if it's been sort of marginalized and and it kept under tabs. But but

[richard_kearney]: people funnyly enough, you know, maybe we. we lost it in our mainstream

[richard_kearney]: philosophy and theology in our church, sort of ecclesology.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: But but I think people, simple people lived it,

[pj_wehry]: yeah. Oh yeah,

[richard_kearney]: you know allles. you know, the way they shared food, the way they pray, the

[richard_kearney]: way they healed each other. It it it went on, and I think the witch hunting

[richard_kearney]: actually, literally, the witch hunting. You know when when they got rid of

[richard_kearney]: that sort of almost nature Christianity, you know, in

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[richard_kearney]: I'm think, particularly Europe, but you're in New England as well, you

[richard_kearney]: know, And and herbal medicines we practiced. Uh, you know, until

[richard_kearney]: Suddenundaly, they're associated with the witches and the witches, where

[richard_kearney]: here ittics because nature was distrusted

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: and Um. And we're just kind of getting back to that now. In many respects,

[richard_kearney]: a return to sort of a a greater, more trusting tacti relationship with with

[richard_kearney]: nature. in terms of this recip reciprocity principle, And so at all levels

[richard_kearney]: you know, it operates at the level of medicine. It operates at the level of

[richard_kearney]: of daily cultureed, operates at the level of of the way we we eat, the way

[richard_kearney]: we pray, and certainly the way we relate to the universe. You know, how are

[richard_kearney]: we going to drive cars? How are we going to heat our houses? These are

[richard_kearney]: really practical questions.

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: And

[richard_kearney]: and, and as we see, you know, in terms of the decisions going on in

[richard_kearney]: Glasgow, you know this is a we reached crisis point. We have to change our

[richard_kearney]: ways,

[richard_kearney]: And and we have to be touched by the message, you know, and touch I. again.

[richard_kearney]: The pain of nature. We have to feel the pain of nature.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: Um, even if it's feeling the pain in our own bodies because of flooding,

[richard_kearney]: and and, and, um, conflagrations and food shortage, and and war, and you

[richard_kearney]: know migration, I mean it. it's it's. There's a lot of pain out there

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: and we have to feed. You know, we have to be touched by it. If we're going

[richard_kearney]: to change our change our ways.

[pj_wehry]: absolutely well, I want to be respectful of your time, but I did, maybe just to

[pj_wehry]: wrap things up because I, one. it is kind of the main question we started with,

[pj_wehry]: but I also think it was the impetus for your book and it's one of the bigger

[pj_wehry]: chapters.

[pj_wehry]: leaving it open ended.

[pj_wehry]: Uh,

[pj_wehry]: can you talk about the how the Internet Specifically? What? what do you think are

[pj_wehry]: the the key important issues at stake with ▁carnation and incarnation in the

[pj_wehry]: Internet?

[richard_kearney]: Well,

[richard_kearney]: it's a complex question, it. it. It's one where I learn a lot from my

[richard_kearney]: students, Actually, because I don't you know, Spend much time. You know,

[richard_kearney]: gaming and and so on, but but I'm I'm aware, of course I teach through the

[richard_kearney]: Internet and June covert. all my classes were online, so I'm aware of all

[richard_kearney]: the advantages and all the pleasure the magic that the Internet can

[richard_kearney]: provide, and the connectivity, which is itself very important. We can know

[richard_kearney]: what's going on in other parts of the world and get all kinds of news

[richard_kearney]: feeds, Um, which can make us uh, conscious of of how others live. So all

[richard_kearney]: that is good

[richard_kearney]: and the danger is, and I' have a chapter on this and that we become to

[richard_kearney]: people up with that earlier. ▁caront that we live too much time. I mean,

[richard_kearney]: uh, I did a a poll with my students the other day. sort of straw pole, And

[richard_kearney]: you know was between six and eight hours of their day is spent

[richard_kearney]: E on either iphones or or computers. Um, but they're living virtually and

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[richard_kearney]: then they sleep, maybe for seven or eight hours. So there,

[richard_kearney]: okay, they they? They're in their imaginary world. There are too dream

[richard_kearney]: dream word, but they're They're not sort of attuned to other people

[richard_kearney]: as as tactile tangible presences in their world as reciprocal relations

[richard_kearney]: because when we're dreaming, we're not reciprocally relating to other

[richard_kearney]: people. and when we're on the internet, we're not reciprocally relating to

[richard_kearney]: to to other people. So that's the danger of isolationism.

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[richard_kearney]: Am growing from hyperconntivity.

[richard_kearney]: Now it is interesting that in a lot of, or at least some of the new

[richard_kearney]: experiments in digital technology, some of the digit Legen engineers are

[richard_kearney]: becoming aware of the necessity to try and introduce some level of

[richard_kearney]: reciprocity into into the media,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: and that's where haptic technology comes in and there, And I mention that

[richard_kearney]: in the in the conclusion to the book, When I talk about covedant, and sort

[richard_kearney]: of the some of the new developments and haptic technology which enable

[richard_kearney]: people to have long distance hugs, For example, you could put on a vest,

[richard_kearney]: and actually.

[richard_kearney]: Experience, uh, being hugged.

[pj_wehry]: really.

[richard_kearney]: So it wasn't just optical. Yes, that with an apt, a,

[pj_wehry]: Ha,

[richard_kearney]: an actual hugging taking place. Um, and there are there are experiments of

[richard_kearney]: of again wearing certain headsets and and vests where you can. for

[richard_kearney]: instance, was a tree experiment done in this regard, V r. where Um.

[richard_kearney]: you know you can see the trees and the smell, the the leaves and the and,

[richard_kearney]: and, and the flowers and the, but, and then feel the the actual Um,

[richard_kearney]: branches and and and uh, bow swaying. So, I mean, you know we're into a

[richard_kearney]: kind of a an, almost s. sci Fi world here. But but it's happening that Um,

[richard_kearney]: the the digital technology that has been so optocentric to date is

[richard_kearney]: recognizing the need where possible to open out to the other senses And

[richard_kearney]: this is very important because we need touch to be in all of the senses. I

[richard_kearney]: mean that's you mentioned the word synesthesia earlier,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: which, which means you know, for those Sp. technical you and the crossing

[richard_kearney]: of the senses, and we need to bring touch back into sight. We

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[richard_kearney]: need to bring touch back into taste, as we mentioned earlier, to turn it

[richard_kearney]: into a, a sort of a, a gourmet discernment, uh, and sensitivity to food,

[richard_kearney]: rather than a devouring consumption. And and same with with smell, you know

[richard_kearney]: that flare is that uh, sort of native savvy we have when it comes to our

[richard_kearney]: all factory experience, Um, and very very important. I mean in in certain

[richard_kearney]: animals, uh, where where smell is very important, so smell and taste, and

[richard_kearney]: in all of them we need the rest of city principle, Um, at work, and I do

[richard_kearney]: think that

[richard_kearney]: we need to keep a dialogue going, a very creative collaborative dialogue

[richard_kearney]: between the digital as our tactile fingertip, and uh, you know, which is

[richard_kearney]: our unique identifying point even on a passport, Right, Our fingerprint am

[richard_kearney]: the most sensitive part of our being on the one hand, and then the digital

[richard_kearney]: code that uh, opens up this virtual word of hyperconctivity on. The other

[richard_kearney]: hand, it's a bothl hand. It's not an either, or because it become becomes

[richard_kearney]: either overber back and platism

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: right, and with the you know spirit, uh, virtual world versus physical, uh,

[richard_kearney]: tangible embodied world, And that's the danger

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: we got to keep to in a creative in a creative dialogue. And I do think, and

[richard_kearney]: this is. It's something I argue in the penultimment chapter of the book

[richard_kearney]: that a lot of movies you know I, I mentioned, ▁x, m, ▁x Macina,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[richard_kearney]: M, Black Mirror series, Um, West World series, Um her, You know, some great

[richard_kearney]: movies and

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: And and T V series that where where the digital technology the digital

[richard_kearney]: entertainment media is itself becoming self questioning,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[richard_kearney]: And it's showing the absence of touch in our culture in our digital

[richard_kearney]: culture. So it's the digital imaginary itself that is reflecting on itself,

[richard_kearney]: critiquing itself and opening out towards reaching out towards touch a bit

[richard_kearney]: like Yae and Adam, you know, in in on insisting chapel in M. Michael

[richard_kearney]: Angelo's will, uh, uh, painting, reaching out finger to finger, you know

[richard_kearney]: the two, the two digits, the virtual coming from through coming from the

[richard_kearney]: skies, Um, and and then the human coming from the body, The the Adam, our

[richard_kearney]: ademic body, And and that's the kind of touching of the two digital

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[richard_kearney]: um media That we need the

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[richard_kearney]: body, and and and the Internet.

[pj_wehry]: I'll take you so much and it's always uh. sometimes when these discussions come

[pj_wehry]: up, it can be very pessimistic, but I love how you end on a really positive note.

[pj_wehry]: and uh with a solution and a move forward. Um, thank you for coming in today.

[pj_wehry]: Think for talking about your book. Uh, touch, Um, if I think it's pretty obvious

[pj_wehry]: what the title of the book is from this discussion, will' have a link to that in

[pj_wehry]: uh, uh, down below, but uh, doctor Kny, real pleasure. thank you.

[richard_kearney]: It's been a pleasure. and let me just say as you as you end on that hopeful

[richard_kearney]: note. You know we probably have the scientists tell us you know, thirty,

[richard_kearney]: forty, maybe fifty for lucky years to go on this planet if we don't do

[richard_kearney]: something radical,

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[richard_kearney]: So it's very important to get back in touch with touch if we're going to

[richard_kearney]: keep going

[pj_wehry]: absolutely, thank you, sir.

[richard_kearney]: All right, Thank you. Been in great pleasure, Byebe.