On Character vs Charisma

What is Living the Teachings of Sai Baba?

In Living the Teachings of Sai Baba, we interview spiritual teacher Gautam Sachdeva where he gives insights on how one can Live Baba's teachings and begin to feel peace of mind in their daily living.

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Namaste. We're with Gautamji once again for our next podcast. Thank you so much, Gautam, for your time as always.
My pleasure,
So Gautam, continuing from the earlier podcast,
I wish to speak with you on character and charisma and what is the difference between the two. So if we can speak about this from the perspective of Baba devotees,
especially in the light of the Mahabhaktas that I referred to in the earlier podcast, like when I was doing the edits of Vinnie Ma and Bawad Kaka,
when they paid tribute to the Mahabhaktas,
it was very clear to me they were people of very deep character,
and if you could shed some light on that.
You see, Nik, firstly, to continue from the previous podcast,
with social media,
it is the first time the individual has had this platform available for themselves.
Earlier, it was very difficult to come on television.
You either had to be on a series, or in the news for some reason.
Now the individual can put up whatever they feel like, let's say a video on a channel on YouTube,
and like we said, they can project and put up photographs or whatever they want to on sites like Facebook, etc.
This we didn't have earlier. So there's a lot of projection now.
This has its pluses and minuses, because you see, people can get taken in by the projected image and get impressed by it.
Now I'm reminded of the time I met a friend of mine who was a therapist, a psychotherapist,
and he was wearing a very colourful shirt when we met,
and I commented on the shirt, and then I asked him, Are you coming from work?
Because it was around tea time in the evening.
He said, No, no, I would not wear this shirt to work,
because when I'm meeting patients, I don't want any projection.
I want them to feel that I am a passive listener listening to them, and one should not wear anything which is attention-grabbing in that sense.
Now,
what struck me, Nik,
was my own teacher said something very similar.
He used to give living room Satsangs in his own living room, and he would wear Kurta-Pajama.
When I met him, he was 83 years old,
and someone asked him,
Why do you just wear white Kurta-Pajama to Satsang?
And he replied that because people are coming not for me, but for the teaching,
so I don't want any projection.
Same words, you see,
which brings us to this point of Charisma and Character.
You see,
because according to me,
Character rests on two factors —
Simplicity and Humility.
Simplicity and Humility.
So if these two are there, supposing you meet someone, or you're listening to someone, or anyone, and you find these qualities are present,
then to my understanding, Character is present.
Now, someone with Character can also be charismatic,
but that Charisma is not dependent on projection.
So I could be simple, but the way I speak, the things I say, my actions,
make me appear to be charismatic, but I'm not doing anything deliberate to be charismatic. That's a very important point here,
you see, because it's possible that someone simple and humble is charismatic, that charismatic is a pure charismatic,
if you know what I mean. It is not dependent on an outward appearance.
And of course, in Baba's time, as you were mentioning,
wouldn't you say yourself that those devotees were the epitome of humility and simplicity?
You know, some of these great devotees,
like Kharpadeji,
Bhutiji, they would only look at Baba's Feet, they were so humble and respectful towards Baba.
So I had said a statement in the earlier Podcast,
how they would present themselves in front of Baba,
that also reflects what is inside them.
Yes,
absolutely.
And that is again a very important point, Nik.
You see, because can you imagine if you knew deep down, I'm presenting myself before God,
before a representation of God, or the Source, or Totality,
only reverence would arise,
there'd be no room for anything else.
The attitude would be one of reverence and putting one's head down.
It would be natural.
But you see, we tend to lose sight of these very basic things. That is why I feel in those days, because life was so simple, people were so simple,
it was perhaps easier to be like that. Now, as we talked about lashing of Maya,
there's so much to look out for, which the people didn't have back then in Baba's time. Of course, they had it in their own ways,
but not to the degree we have.
And so when you rightly mention, let's say, this topic being Charisma and Character,
it is taking us back to Character. And I must add here,
let's take, for example, a sage.
Someone asked Ramana Maharshi,
How do I know if a sage is a genuine sage? It was a very simple question,
and Bhagawan Maharshi's reply was very simple.
He said,
by the degree of respect you feel for him,
and by the sense of humility you feel emanating from him.
That was it —
humility.
Nothing else,
not about words, not about the clothes one is wearing, how one is done up.
He gave such a simple barometer,
you see.
And he would also say,
by the degree of peace that you feel emanating from him.
It's a very important measure, Nik, because we can get taken up by Charisma without having these yardsticks at the back of our mind.
One important difference I see between someone with Character and Charisma
is Charisma will always need the satellites around.
It needs validation from outside.
Someone with Character, even if you leave them on an island, it will make no difference because they are established in themselves.
Like see, Baba,
or Baka Dixit,
he told him not to leave his Wada for nine months.
He didn't let him leave the Wada. Although Baba was right there in Dwarkamai, He didn't let him.
Firstly,
it reflects how ripe Kaka Dixit was. I mean, he was the pinnacle of the pinnacle when it came to the Sadhaks.
For nine months not to leave one's space,
he was eligible and ripe.
But you know, the Character over there... because one other thing I often reflect on, Gautam, when we hear of the great devotees, not just of Babas, when you read the Gita, and you hear of different accounts and tales,
it was also a very private thing. Devotion was not put out there for others to see. Which would take me to my next topic I would like to bring up.
See,
in the earlier years,
they shared Leelas out of compassion for others, so people came to know about Baba.
So there was a need for it, there was certainly a need for it. It arose out of compassion within the devotees for others to know about Baba.
But I also feel sometimes now what is happening is, where the experiences... it is happening by Baba's grace, it's not really done by the devotee.
So you know this blowing... I would say, blowing one's own trumpet syndrome.
So if you can talk a bit about that... and I'm only saying it so we can become more self-aware. It might happen in us as well, who knows... Sure, sure. No, it's an important point. Let's use an example which we are all aware of, Nik. Let's say when we are doing charity.
Now,
the mother of Pondicherry, I remember what she said,
Charity is done best when it is done without any exposure.
So for example, you're donating money, and then you want to name the wing of a hospital after yourself.
She actually gave these examples that where we are looking for name and fame because of our charity is not charity.
You see, because what is happening in this case is we are again wanting to project an image, see how charitable I am.
The Ego has walked in through the back door.
It is doing a good deed, no doubt,
but it wants that attention.
That is how the Ego operates. Whereas to do charity quietly,
without that kind of Tamasha going on,
then it's very honourable and respectful, because you're doing it simply because of the joy of giving money to others.
There is no identification in that act.
You see, now what happens, Nik, is because coming back to technology, social media and all, we can show others what we are doing.
So when we are being charitable, we can show that to everyone, and then we derive our sense of Self from that showing.
So I would again belabour the point that these are the pitfalls of Maya today, because we have technology, we have tools, but are they enhancing the Ego with its antics, and its sense of Self, and its projection, and drama, and this outward show?
Or are we using it constructively,
reaching out to the masses in our own way,
impacting people, but not deriving a sense of Self from that?
One pointer I ask myself is,
say, you're doing some deed.
What if you were the one receiving it? Would you like to be photographed?
You know, we should be sensitive. I mean,
just to reflect on that sometimes,
that, you know,
fine, it's nice that you're doing something,
but does it need to be recorded and shared? Like, how would you feel if you were receiving?
Yes, and you are quite right, nobody asks... I've seen many videos where good-hearted people are doing a charity on the streets, and filming themselves doing it,
you know,
but this point which you have raised, I doubt anyone must have asked the people they are giving charity to, Are you okay with being filmed? Ask yourself how you would feel if you were receiving, and someone were filming it.
Yes, I mean, it's a very valid point you raised, I actually didn't think about this.
You know, actually, I'm sorry to jump topics... I met a... there is a family I'm very close to in Goa,
and they are devotees of Lord Dattatreya,
and the entire very large family,
and the grandfather through whom a temple was built about 80 years ago. So you know, one of the younger members of the family said, that, see, this whole thing happened many years ago,
but this old gentleman has never mentioned this to anyone.
His name is not there, he never speaks about it.
And when you see that old gentleman, very humble, very much like I... And you know, I felt even these examples being shared, they become like reminders,
and you know, because unfortunately,
otherwise, there's a normalization of bad behaviour. That's how I would put it. Like, you know, our society in the bigger picture is rewarding bad behaviour, like companies like YouTube, where they even monetize it. There was a beautiful story where, in short, it was some rich guy,
he was robbed.
So, you know, the village panchayat, when they found the person robbing, they said, fine, we will punish him,
but you are equally responsible because you created that temptation.
Sure.
Yeah, so I feel the system that is going on now, it's in a way, you're encouraging unconscious behaviour,
and then you wonder, why did it happen? So I feel at least through Podcasts like this,
if the collective begins to even reflect on it, maybe it can get people more aware, and as a result, make better choices.
Yes, and to carry on in the spirit of the last Podcast, the words used were earnestness and sincerity. I think these go a very long way,
you see, because in holding the space for devotion and worship to someone like Sai Baba,
it is our actions which speak louder than words,
right?
And how we act in today's environment,
physically with people,
and in terms of projections onto social media, various platforms, and so on, if we carry these principles of earnestness, sincerity,
and, you know, kind of, Nick,
reflecting back on our actions in the day,
and where did we get sucked into this dream of projection,
and wanting to be something so people can appreciate me, and all that, and where have we maintained our simplicity of being,
and humility?
This kind of cross-checking, I think, really helps.
Just at the end of the day, take 5 minutes, 10 minutes, and review your day, and how it went, whom you met, what you spoke about, and just ask yourself, When was I at peace? When I was not at peace? Was I really saying something I didn't believe in, just to impress the other person?
All these things we can look at, reflect on, and it will go a very long way.
Because, see, Nick, the final, the absolutely final analysis at the end of everything is peace of mind for myself and for others.
You see, it all comes down to that. If I am following my Master's teaching to the T,
then it does follow that I would be at peace,
and more importantly, I would not take away another's peace.
You see, we do a very good job of taking away people's peace. We don't realise it.
We'll say something which hurts them, upsets them,
pass a judgment, condemn them... We have no right to take away someone else's peace. So coming back to wrap this topic up,
because you mentioned Charisma and Character...
You see, if the pegs of Character are humility and simplicity,
then it does follow that one would be at peace and equanimity in daily living.
You know, there is that saying that when one is absorbed in the Master's teaching, and in the contemplation and remembrance of their Master,
they imbibe those qualities.
So when we see devotees like me,
she is very simple in her ways, very honest,
very much like Baba,
very much like Baba.
So that will now show in the most difficult times that she's gone through. Like even in the book, Sai Baba and I, we've mentioned certain stories, so it goes so deep in.
So that is something I look for,
that when you see somebody,
and okay, all these experiences is one matter,
but then, I always feel this in my heart, that you will see that reflection of Baba within them,
and these characters of Baba was the pinnacle of humility, patience.
So these things, I feel,
you become like your Master then.
You know,
two things, Nik... One is, you used a very apt example of I.
She is someone who couldn't care whether you filmed her or not for YouTube, you see.
People might say that Nikhil and Gautam are trying to project something through this channel of who they are and all,
you know, because when we are in the space, we have to be open for criticism and compliments.
But let's take someone like I, which is a beautiful example you used, is exactly what I was trying to point at — simplicity and humility.
You used a very good example. Now,
you actually touched upon a very beautiful thing as part of your closing statement.
When you follow your Master's teachings,
you become like the Master.
Do you know, I read this in some book years ago,
that they say that someone who is immersed in their Master's teaching starts even looking like the Master.
And this is beyond gender, Nik, this is beyond gender.
I could have a male Master, let's say Sai Baba, and I'm a woman, right?
But that certain quality... You see, because it's not just the physical,
we are looking at the physical, we have other layers, subtle layers,
because those get imbibed. You see, there was also... and you might laugh at this, but it is true... There's also something that owners of dogs can start looking like their dogs, and vice versa.
Don't take this literally, but you do see these qualities.
You know, I'll tell you something very funny, I'm not sure I shared this on your channel before. When I had my home in Goa,
one couple came over with their dog.
Now, you know, as a dog's nature, it'll run into each room, sniff around, and come back.
Nik, you'll be surprised that the boyfriend went into each room unaware.
Unaware,
you see, unaware. He was following the dog because, you see,
the person or the being we are around the most imprints us the most.
We automatically go into that dimension.
And so this is for anyone with any Master,
be it Sai Baba, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna Paramhans, when we are immersed in their remembrance and their teaching,
we take on those qualities.
You know, this is a principle even of Ayurveda,
you become what you eat.
What did Swami Vivekananda say? Show me a person's company and what he eats, and I'll tell you everything about him.
So, you know, while we have so much exposure to things,
if we can become more mindful about... as they say, they would tell young children in the family, the elders would say, be careful of your company, for example.
But today, see, with social media, if you watch videos or are exposed to things without awareness,
in one way, that is also your friend.
So you know,
that is why I realise more and more that Baba's emphasis on the Parayan and the reading of the Scriptures, the repeated reading,
without distraction,
because then the mind is absorbed in it, and it picks up those qualities.
So it takes me back to that.
Yes, and that is one aspect.
If I also remember that everyone I encounter today,
especially the people who trigger me, are an aspect of Baba,
then again, that moulds my daily living in a different way.
So that immersion comes into daily living through Scriptures, as you said, reading,
reading the Satcharita, whatever it is, and also through my experiences during the day.
You see, that is immersion.
Also, Gautam, you mentioned an incident... I would like you to change a few details, but it was a very interesting incident where somebody met you... I will not say where... someone met you somewhere,
and they told you they've watched all your videos,
and which is your most favourite miracle you've shared. So I was talking of that disconnect, and I think that's also an aspect of what's happening. If you could talk a bit about that incident, and speak about that phenomena in general.
Well, Nik, as you know, I have only been speaking about living the Teachings, because for me, that is the greatest miracle.
The miracle is peace of mind, equanimity, and calm.
As I believe, Ramana Maharshi said, Being calm is the greatest Siddhi.
Now, because the Ego loves Chamatkars and miracles, what may have happened is,
this person may have watched other speakers on the channel, and got enamoured... the Ego gets enamoured by all the miracles people experience with Baba even today. People have visions of Baba and all that, but that's not what I speak about.
But because that is such an overriding emotion and thought in a person's mind,
he felt that I am also talking about miracles.
Because that was what was appealing,
not peace of mind in daily living. So I had to correct this person, I had to say, Thank you for complimenting me,
because he said you're my favourite speaker.
I said, but maybe you've mistaken me for someone else, because I am trying to just bring down Baba's Teachings to daily living, so I'm not talking about miracles.
So the person was a bit flustered, of course, maybe realised there's a mistake,
but you see, because it also shows where a person is. If a person wants to be immersed in miracles, there's nothing wrong with that.
But then that clarity must be there enough that, okay, this person does not speak about miracles.
You see, because then there has been no absorption of the message of living the Teachings,
which I feel that Baba's Teachings are the most simple,
pragmatic,
and living them is what, at least my endeavour on your channel, is to share them so they impact daily living.
In this particular case,
it seems the message got missed.
And I do hope this person maybe sees these videos at some point, and understands,
and brings, implements it into daily living, but exactly, we have to be careful what is the content of our consciousness all the time.
Like we mentioned in the last Podcast,
we could be seeing 20 different channels on YouTube every day, and we are absorbing and absorbing and absorbing,
and then we are digging many shallow wells, and not one deep well.
So coming back to this point, immersed in the Teachings, immersed in whether it is practices, whether it is reading, whether it is seeing events in daily life in light of my Master's Teaching,
that is what would really pull us out of this living dream of life.
Gautam, I would also wish to speak about Responsibility,
and by that I mean,
when I look back,
it is because of the deeds of these great devotees in the past,
that Baba's history was recorded and shared, then the next generation, like Narsimha Swamiji, Vinny Ma, their deeds,
their actions, all by Baba's grace, of course,
but that Responsibility that they have undertaken and shared this in such a beautiful way,
but I also feel today,
what we do ourselves and collectively,
it's going to take it for the next generation.
So sometimes when I see... obviously,
there's a lot of stuff out there, like you have all these flashcards of Baba, and this and that,
but to my surprise,
many people don't even know, till date, about which edition of the Charita to read.
Maybe we should do a Podcast on that, because that was, interestingly, the first topic I had discussed with Vinny Ma when I met her.
So we have the abridged edition, and then the big edition, which is a word-to-word translation,
and that has all of Baba's words and teachings. So in many cases, people have read the smaller book, and then the teachings are missed, and that had a great part and role to play in the propagation of Baba's life story,
but the teachings are sort of removed from that.
Yes, yes. So I felt our responsibility, collectively,
for the current and next generation, and there I see character playing a very important role. I would rather be pained today,
and have pleasure later,
rather than instant gratification now, and forget about the tomorrow.
Sure, sure. Because these great people like Narsimha Swamiji, Vinny Ma, and the devotees who set up the Sansthan, like Kaka Dixit and the others,
I mean, they were people of such high character that I have no words to describe them.
And hard-working, hard-working, to do all that, my God... Absolutely,
but to be inspired by the example,
and the word Responsibility comes to mind,
that collectively, what are we doing? It's not so much about this channel, and that author, and this and that, but collectively,
what are we doing?
Yes, and because in this age we are lost in our own lives, Nik, there's so much distraction,
so much coming at us from so many different directions,
there's so much fragmentation,
our attention is fragmented.
You know,
it's a very common sight, you go to a restaurant, and everyone's on their mobile phones.
So that fragmentation is immense,
and the hard work which was put in in those generations, or let's say, even as recently as Vinny Ma,
becoming even tougher because of fragmentation.
So I can hear your call to go back to that, to put in one's time responsibly,
through hard work, through dedication and devotion. It is really a call for that, and to wrap this up, it's again, to not get sucked into Maya.
And these things are beautiful, because it is written in our scriptures also,
to keep the company of saints is of tremendous merit. How do we keep the company of saints? It doesn't mean physical company.
Be immersed in the Teaching,
read what you have to read the scriptures,
reflect upon it during the day, that is to keep company with the saints.
Then one is really living a life of dedication and devotion.
Speaking of Vinny Ma,
I would like that we can do a tribute to her, maybe in the subsequent Podcast.
And earlier, it was a bit difficult to speak about it, but I feel now would be a good time. So maybe in the subsequent Podcast, we can talk about Vinny Ma, her commitment... I would say unparalleled... after Narasimha Swami, I see her.
So in that sense, she's carried that light forward. And then I feel, what responsibility do all of us have?
Beautiful.
We'll certainly do that.
Wonderful. All by Baba's grace. Thank you so much, Gautam, as always, for your time. Pleasure, Nik. It's always a pleasure being on your channel. All by Baba's grace. Pleasure is mine.
Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Om Sairam.
Om Sairam.