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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
I've been hypothermic a few times, and
I can tell you when you climb out of
the icy water, the clock starts ticking.
My guest today knows the exact
length of that countdown because
the Navy paid him to teach it to
their SEALs and countless others.
After 9/11, they needed a mountain
warfare expert, and they picked a diver.
That call reshaped cold weather
survival training for a generation of
special operators, and it's the reason
this man can teach you to fall in a
frozen river and walk yourself dry.
He's a 26-year Navy veteran, one of the
minds behind the clothing system special
operations carried into the mountains,
and the man Sitka Gear trust to build
equipment your life might depend on.
Welcome to the Silvercore
Podcast, John Barklow.
Travis, thank you.
And let me say before I forget,
that is absolutely the best
introduction I have ever gotten.
I'm gonna get the transcription of that
and maybe have it tattooed on my back.
That is amazing.
Thank you so much.
Oh.
Thank you so much.
It's hard to take 30 years of experience
and, you know, succinctly put it in a
few sentences, but that was outstanding.
Well, tell me about it.
There's so much culling I had to do-
… 'cause y- you're a man of many talents.
Yeah.
You've got a lot of accolades
behind you, and I, you know, I tried
to hit the high points in there.
So- You
did.
You did.
Uh.
That was outstanding.
Thank you very much.
Humbling.
Well, I should preface this or
preface this with the fact that you've
got a book coming out, and for the
listeners, you guys are gonna have
an opportunity to win this book.
It's called Knowledge From
Storms, and it's on pre-order.
So I'm gonna have… Like, I just
thought about it this morning,
so I'm gonna have that figured
out by the end of this podcast.
It'll be in the details about how a person
can win this book, and, uh, you'll, you'll
be getting your own copy of Knowledge
From Storms once that one comes out.
So, uh- Yeah,
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think it's,
uh, I think it's amazing.
You put a lot, a lot great content,
and holy crow, have you ever come a
long way from the boy in Cleveland
who would pick mushrooms so he
could buy his school clothing.
Yeah.
Yeah, uh, Cleveland, Ohio is not
the place to, that grows mountain
men or deep sea divers, right?
It's just not, uh, not, uh, not
the place you would, you would
put a pin on the map to do that.
But I think what it did, for
whatever reason, is it gets
you to dream and dream big.
And, you know, I'm 57, so, you know, when
I was younger, there was no internet,
not even a, uh, an idea of an internet.
So you really had to, you know, look at
magazines and buy books and, you know, and
talk to people or go to some outdoor show.
And, uh, it just, man, for a
young adventurous kid, it just
gets your mind going because you
can't just walk to the ocean.
You c- Right … you know what I mean?
I had little wood lots, but
you can't go climb a mountain.
So you can only dream about those things
and, and just work them up in your mind.
Yeah, so I guess I'm kinda spoiled
living here in British Columbia because
I got mountains and ocean all around
me, and I, you know, it's in my blood.
I don't know if I could ever move
away from being by the ocean or
have a mountain somewhere nearby.
But what sparked that adventure in you?
You know, I, I, I don't know, and I've
thought about that a lot, but I would
say it could be the same thing that,
say, sparked, you know, uh, a kid from
Virginia or the Ohio territory to pack
up, go up to Missouri and head west to
become a mountain man or a fur trader.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Like, I, I… It, it's always been
there is all I can tell people.
You know, my dad, he bird hunted,
uh, you know, he scuba dove.
He did some of those things, but as
far as, like, nobody archery hunted,
nobody had ever big game hunted.
But for whatever reason, it just, it
captured my… I mean, it captured
my heart is really what it did.
Hmm.
And it's never let go 42
years or whatever it is later.
Um, at the same time, I think some of
the stories of, you know, my dad in the
Navy and, and, uh, you know, he wasn't
a Navy diver, but, but, you know, his
scuba diving exploits in Florida and
things like that- Hmm … it instilled
this sense of adventure in me, but then
also a sense of frustration because I
couldn't then go and do these things as a
kid, you know, driving the family station
wagon somewhere for a day or a weekend.
Um, and so I, I was just… I could
not wait to get out of, of school.
You know, the thing that kept me
kind of focused was, you know,
organized sports and, and doing
that and preparing for those things.
But I knew at some point, probably
more upon reflection, that I was always
gonna pursue this, this other life,
you know, outside of the bounds of
what, you know, Ohio could provide me.
Well, it was what, 19
when you joined the Navy?
Yeah.
Like, that was right out of
high school and you're like-
Yeah.
Your father was a big
influence in this, was it?
Or…
Yeah, I think he was a big influence on,
on the military, not that he promoted it.
And I've got three other siblings.
I was the only one to, to, to
go active duty in the military.
My brother, who's a doc, one of
the, my brothers, uh, he was an
Air Force officer in the reserves.
Hmm.
But yeah, a- again, I think it
was that sense of adventure.
I realized that, you know,
I, I, I tried college.
I tried to play football.
I knew the football thing
wasn't gonna work out.
College, I was not interested in.
And then for whatever reason, this,
this maybe bit of wisdom I had that,
you know, I could always go back
and, you know, be an accountant or,
or, you know, sit behind a desk.
But if I was going to join the
military and wanna do these adventurous
things that, you know, for my
body anyways, I had a shelf life.
Definitely the military has a very short
timeframe of age that you can join and
be, be part of these special programs.
And, um- And once I got into it, and,
and to this day, I've, I've never
regretted it, I've never looked back.
You know, I knew that I was… I- I call
it my cardinal direction, like on a map.
Mm-hmm.
I knew I was… I knew that I was
moving in my cardinal direction.
I didn't know all the twists and
turns, I didn't know, you know,
maybe the, the stumbles or getting
lost and turned around a little bit.
But if I kept moving in that direction,
and again, this is in hindsight-
Sure
…
that, that, that I would at least,
that I would hopefully become
fulfilled and maybe reach the goal,
but I never really had, like, a goal.
There were small incremental step goals,
but nothing like, "Oh, I'm gonna go and,
you know, be on the Silvercore podcast
one day- … you know, and talk to
Travis." Like, I, I, you know, I didn't
have that kind of- Well, that's the
pinnacle, right?
That's
the top I, I didn't have
that kind of wisdom.
But, uh, and that's why I just
tell people, like, man, you just,
you gotta be true to your heart,
and then I think everything else
will tend to work its way out.
Not that it's always easy, but
you know, I think you'll be
fulfilled, I hope, is the goal.
Well, that brings up an
interesting question, and something
for the younger listeners.
That cardinal direction that you
talk about now with hindsight and-
Yeah … being able to look back on
this, did you have some form of that
cardinal direction in your younger years?
And what… If so, what
did that feel like?
Yeah, I did.
I didn't have the words to describe
it or call it the cardinal direction.
I think at the time, you know, and
most people even today would just
say trying to be true to yourself.
So you know, and I talk about this
in the book, but you know, I, I
grew up in a, a very, um, you know,
ethnically, uh, diverse area of Ohio.
You know, the Italian neighborhood,
the, the Irish neighborhood.
You know, the Polish
neighborhood kinda thing.
Hmm.
And it, there were small towns
and, you know, I was the, you know,
one of the, the local, you know,
football stars and the homecoming
king and all these kinds of things.
And it just seemed like my life was
preordained of what it was going to be.
Mm.
And I was handed the script at birth.
Mm. And I resented
that, and I rejected it.
Not that I acted out as a bad kid
necessarily, but, you know, I wasn't
good in school because all I could think
about was doing these other things.
And so the, you know, the hardest decision
I had to make, and also the best decision
I ever made, was to kinda break those
shackles and say, "No, I'm not cut from
this cloth, I'm cut from this other cloth,
and I absolutely need to go do this.
And I can always come back." Mm.
Which I've never moved back home.
Of course, I've been back home.
I've got family there.
But I, I could always come back.
Right.
But at some point I'm not gonna
be able to because of a job or a
wife or a girlfriend or kids, like,
to be able to go do these things.
And so, you know, a- I just tell people,
"You have to be true to yourself," because
at the end of the day, making your mom
or dad or siblings or even girlfriend,
boyfriend happy for a short amount of time
i- is not gonna always make you happy.
Mm. And I think that's where people
get this, you know, resentment, and
they act out against, you know, maybe
their parents or maybe their siblings
or, or, or spouse because of that.
And I, I just, you know, luckily, it was
the hardest decision I ever had to make.
And, and honestly, it was only, it was
only after my mother said in, in a loving
way, but, but the only way an Irish
mother could say is, "Get the hell out
of the house and go find something to do-
but you're not doing it here."
Yeah.
And I was, two weeks
later I was in the Navy.
I was, I was shipped off a- and
super happy and everybody was happy
for me 'cause they knew it's like
finally he's, he's going to do it.
I was, I was scared.
Yeah.
I was scared.
I was just gonna ask that.
Yeah.
Were you scared?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
No kidding.
Abs- scared of the unknown, scared
if I could live up to my own
expectations, uh, you know, scared of,
of leaving everything I knew, right?
Mm. That you grow up in those small
neighborhoods back on the East Coast and-
You know, everybody knows everybody, and
everybody knows everybody's business,
and everybody goes to the same, you know,
you go to the same bar your dad went to
and the same bar your grandad went to.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like I, I appreciate that, but
I needed more, or I at least needed to go
experience more and then I could decide
for myself, but I didn't want to… I
wanted to make sure that it, somebody
wasn't telling me what to do, that I
could go and figure it out for myself.
And I've always kind of been that way.
I'm the oldest, right, of four
kids, so you kinda have that little
bit of personality trait baked in.
Sure.
You know, it, it brings to mind,
uh, I think it was Harvard.
They did the longest study on
happiness, what makes people happy.
Mm. And they studied people
from different, uh, religious
backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds-
different regions over an 80-year
period, and the number one thing that
was reported for satisfaction of life and
happiness was strong social connections.
And growing up in a East Coast small
town sort of environment where you've
got those traditions and you know family-
Mm-hmm … grandfather, father, parents,
friends will know who you are through
your, through your family, I think that
might be something that's starting to,
uh, to be missed in today's day and age
where everyone's connected through a
phone, through social media, as opposed
to the hard, uh, what do they call it?
IRL, in real life connections.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, y- I think you, you
could be right about that.
Um, I, I, I'm not… Y- you know, when
you get to know me, you're, y- you're
probably not going to say… You're,
you're probably not gonna apply the,
the modifier happiness to John, right?
Like, John and happiness,
not that I'm not happy.
Mm-hmm.
I would say I'm more satisfied.
I'm say I'm more fulfilled.
And I would say that I, I
have more of that today than
I ever have had in my life.
And, um- But, but y- y- you're right,
but I think some of us are, like again,
how, h- you know, how can somebody
pick up and, and, and go to the middle
of the mountains in the 1800s and
live by themselves amongst, you know,
warring indigenous tribes- Mm-hmm
and, and, and that's what they're
cut, cut out for, you know?
And I think I, I'm, I'm certainly not
here to cast any kind of judgment.
I just say make sure that you're
doing whatever you're doing
for yourself and not others.
And, and then I think you will get that
satisfaction, that fulfillment and, uh,
you know, and hopefully that happiness.
Yeah.
I, I like how you separate that
from satisfaction, fulfillment.
I think, I think a lot of people are
striving for happiness, and they want
to be happy, and that whole pursuit
presupposes that you aren't right now,
and it's something that's in front
of you that you're always chasing.
And if you can just kinda relax
and be satisfied in the moment,
happiness is a natural byproduct
of that, of those efforts.
There we go.
At least that's my perception.
Yeah.
I think that's a great way of saying it.
It's a, it's a byproduct of the two.
Yeah.
To, to just chase happiness is kind
of this elusive thing that's hard
to kinda define, and I don't…
It, it's hard to even, you know,
even feel when you're having it.
It's, it's like sitting down and
having that cup of coffee in the
morning and you're like, "Yeah,
I feel pretty good about, you
know, where things are right now."
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, if you look back, have you
felt fulfilled through life as
in the same way that you are now?
Or were you always kinda striving
and, "Okay, I'm at the top of this
mountain, where's the next one?"
Yeah.
I, I, I'm not a person that
often looks back or reflects.
Pretty goal-oriented, driven.
Ever since, you know, the, the
day I got into the Navy, it was,
it was just f- full steam ahead.
And, and not, not chasing rank.
I, I wasn't a person that, you know,
grabbed a lot of rank real quick.
It was, you know, trying to, trying
to be really good at what I did,
trying to master my craft, trying to
be that person that people relied on.
And then, you know, getting put
into positions, okay, now I, you
know, I need to become a leader.
And okay, I've done this thing.
Say, you know, a certain type of diving as
an example in Virginia, and okay, I wanna
go test myself and I wanna go forward.
And so people can look at that,
even myself, as I'm living it and
say, you know, d- am I fulfilled?
Do I feel satisfaction?
Because you're always
looking to that next horizon.
And I would say yes, I would say I was.
Now, I think everybody can interpret
that a little different, but I was…
If somebody were to say at any given
time in my military career, "Hey,
man, you can leave right now and go do
anything else in the world that you want
to do." And in all honesty, I'd have
said, "Nope, I'm right where I want to
be, doing exactly what I want to do."
And that is a blessed man.
That is person who, you know, i-
is, should be happy at s- at some
level because not everybody ever,
uh, you know, always attains that.
Mm-hmm.
And, and again, I just tie it back to,
uh, you know, being true to myself.
Now, l- let's, let's not,
you know, blow smoke here.
It was every single day, was every single
duty station, was every single leader
I ever worked for the perfect person?
No.
But you can still learn from that, and you
have to, like, kind of get out of your own
head sometimes and, and just look around.
It, it's like when I'm in the mountains,
right, and I'm getting my ass kicked
by the elk, or, you know, my physical
fitness was- wasn't what it to be
or, or the weather's bad or the
wind's always in the wrong direction.
And just being able to take a
step back and look around and go,
"I am, I am so lucky to be here
right now getting my butt kicked-
Mm-hmm
…
by these elk because people never, some
people never get that opportunity," right?
And that I'm physically capable
of doing it, and I live in
an area I can pursue those.
And, and again, I think some of that,
you know, it's hard as you get older
To, you know, I didn't have this
wisdom when I was younger is my point.
Um, and it's only upon
reflection that, you know, you
start to realize these things.
I, I'm glad I'm realizing them
in my 50s and not in my 70s
or on my death bed, you know.
So I'll, I'll chalk it up as a win.
No kidding.
But, um, yeah.
But, but I have been able to do that
at certain points in time, and, and I
look back now, even with this book, and,
and I, I still am- I just pinch myself.
I'm like, "How did I do what I did?
How did I get where I got? How have
I been able to accomplish, you know,
these things and, and have these
kinds of friends?" I, I don't know.
I mean, some of it I'm sure is luck,
but, uh, but some of it is, is also this,
you know, kinda dogged determination to
just say, "No, I'm supposed to be here.
I'm, I'm, I'm good enough.
I, I, you know, this is what I am meant
to do." And I might not be, you know,
the best at it, the top performer in
my team or unit, but, but I'm gonna
carry my weight and I'm gonna work at,
you know, striving to become the best.
And, uh, you know, at some point,
you know, maybe you get there,
maybe you don't, but you can
still find satisfaction in that.
You know, isn't it funny that the harder
that you work, the luckier you get?
Yeah.
Interesting how that is, right?
You call it- Yeah.
It's, it's, uh- You call
it luck … yeah, yeah.
We call it luck, right?
Or, or the over- I like the
overnight successes that we see.
Oh, yeah.
And it's like, you d- you didn't
see the 10, 20 years leading
up to, you know, to the, to the
overnight success component of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you also did something there that
was kinda interesting, like when you
pose the question in the opposite, and I
find people are like, "Well, am I happy
here? Am I doing the right thing now?"
Well, what would you do in the opposite?
"Oh, shit, I wouldn't leave," right?
I'd- Right … this is where I should be.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's really easy to
identify the opposite as opposed to de-
identifying the where you are right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is.
So when people have, when things go
sideways for people in the mountains,
they will call you up or they'll go on
YouTube and they'll check out your, your
plethora of videos and, or content that
you have out there, and they're like,
"What could I have done differently?"
Who do you call?
Um, who do I call?
I, uh, I probably don't…
This isn't to sound arrogant.
I probably don't call anybody anymore
There's a few, but I certainly have
and had, but still do have mentors.
Um, you know, people that I, that
I reach out to, that I talk to,
um, you know, that have helped
me along the way when I get to…
You know, oftentimes it's not
this, this, uh, this T in the
road, it's more of a fork.
Do I go a little left?
Do I go a little right?
Maybe I forge my own path straight ahead.
And there's, there's
always been mentors there.
Um, you know, I was really lucky to
have, you know, just the way the military
organization is structured, you know, you
have people that, that potentially are
mentors that you can, that you can use.
Of course, it's very humbling
when somebody says, "Well, you
know, you're, you're my mentor."
You don't get to pick, right?
It, it's kinda like the way it works.
But yeah, there's, there's some
people, there's, there's, uh, you know,
there's… Some of them aren't, aren't,
uh, alive anymore, but, um, yeah.
But guys that, that took the time and took
the chance to, you know, take somebody
who is maybe running a little ragged
here, a little ragged there, a little too
aggressive and, and, uh, you know, and
take them under their wing and just say,
"Hey, you know, have you considered this?
Hey, have you considered that?
Hey, I know this is not… You're not
gonna like this choice at the moment,
but this will lead to better things, you
know, in the future, be it six months
or a year or two years down the road."
And I, I certainly appreciate that.
And, and I was arrogant, I was
absolutely arrogant enough for a very
long time to think that I had, you
know, achieved all my, quote, "success"
by myself, that I had done it, that I
had done the hard work, that I- Mm-hmm
that I had earned this.
And I realized that, you know,
how, what an idiot I was that,
uh, you know, these mentors, these
people, you know, my dad included-
Mm-hmm
…
have, uh, have been there to just, you
know, steer me a little bit here or there.
They're not, you know, not,
they're not gonna control you, but
you need that guidance, you need
that advice, you need that, that
little bit of, of, of aged wisdom.
What you choose to do with it is of
course up to you, but, but they're,
they've definitely been there.
Well, you know, it seems like the natural
arc of a high achiever and a leader as
they go through, they're accumulating a
lot of knowledge and a lot of skills, and
then the, they're teaching it to others.
And then it seems the natural arc later
on is even outside of their work or
whatever they do, they want to share that
because, you know, our time here is, is
limited, and that knowledge is important
and we wanna share these sort of things.
And it seems like you spend a lot of
your time sharing your knowledge, giving
a lot of yourself just out there on
the internet on these different videos
and, uh, what's, what's driving that?
Yeah.
Well, that- that's a great,
uh, it's a great, um- It's a
great area of focus because
If you came up to me and talked
and we didn't know each other, I, I
would, I would share whatever I knew.
But until COVID, when we were
told to go and start working from
home- … and for the first time in my
life, I would say I had some kind of
balance in my life, 'cause I'm like,
I'm, I'm all in whatever I'm doing.
Mm. So if it's all work, it's all work.
My wife and I don't have children, so,
and she was in the military as well.
Um, where I could wake up, I could do
a little work, I could go for a walk
with her and the, and the dogs, right?
I could come back, I could do a little
more work, I could do a workout, you
know, have lunch with her, whatever.
Never had that in my life.
Mm.
And I, I, uh, I went it… Nobody knew how
long this whole thing would last, right?
And so I said, "Well, I'm gonna do
a couple thing. I wanna come out of
COVID," I thought 90 days, three months.
Mm-hmm.
I was like, "I'm gonna come out of
this better than when I went into it.
So I'm not gonna get fat.
I'm not gonna get out of shape.
You know, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna start my own business.
I'm gonna stop drinking, and I'm gonna,
I'm gonna, you know, get in better
shape than I started for- Mm-hmm … for
the upcoming season." And I, you know,
it was not encouraged when I was in
the military to be on social media.
Mm.
But now I'm working for a hunting
brand, and I had social media just so
I could follow people, just so I could
see trends, what people were saying.
And I, I was driving home one day,
and I won't… It doesn't matter what
the inciting incident was, but there
was something I saw from another
brand, and they had kind of, we'll say
We'll say hijack some, some
things I had talked about.
Mm-hmm.
And, and if I'll take any credit,
I'll say I brought what's called
the rewarming drill, which you
kinda referenced in the intro-
Mm-hmm
…
to the hunting industry.
It wasn't… I didn't create it in
the military, but I brought it to the
hunting industry, and these people were
bastardizing it, and I thought they
were doing it at the expense of the
safety of the consumer, of the hunter-
Mm-hmm
and more for the benefit
of them and their sales.
And that really upset me.
And I didn't say anything publicly,
'cause that's not really who I am,
but I said I could do three things.
I could keep being mad about
it and staying frustrated.
I could forget about the whole thing
and let it go, which I almost did.
I said, or I could do something about it.
And I decided that I was gonna start this
platform called Knowledge From Storms,
which is a way of me saying, "This is…
I'm gonna provide you the knowledge that
I've got based on my experiences, good
and bad, over 30 years in an incredibly,
I believe, eclectic and unique environment
that I was allowed to grow up in.
And I'm gonna put the information
out there, and you can choose to
take it or not, and that's fine.
I'm not gonna argue with you about it.
But if you wanna help, if you
want the help, I'm here." Because
what I realized upon, you know,
thinking through this whole thing,
that I was being very selfish.
That I had lived in this unique
incubator of experiences and, and, and
energy and professionalism that very,
very, very few people will ever get
a chance to, to, to, to have, right?
To experience.
Mm. And that me dying with all this
experience or just passing it to my,
you know, my one hunting buddy was
not doing the world any, any good.
Mm-hmm.
And because of that and the inciting
incident I mentioned, I was like,
"I'm just gonna start doing one
video a week and see if people
like it, and where does it go?"
And I'd already been documenting
all my lessons learned and writing
some stories down and some things.
I didn't wanna forget what I
had learned in the military.
Mm.
And it was interesting 'cause, you know,
when you do reflect back, which I don't
do often, but you're like, "Man, did
it really happen that way? D- w- was
the technique really done that way?"
Mm.
So I wanted it as a record.
And then the thing just, you know,
started to evolve into what it is today,
and, uh, well, this whole thing has
started to evolve in what it is today.
But really, it was just me trying not
to be selfish and, and die with this
information, 'cause I thought that if I
thought it was important and interesting,
that other people might as well
Yeah, well it clearly they do.
And you know, you talk about social
media, I have a difficult time with
social media because it can be a, a time
suck of just sitting there scrolling.
Like, why do you wanna watch
what somebody else is doing?
Yeah.
But it can also be a great educational
platform if you're looking to find
something and… But, um, I find, I, I,
maybe it's like this in all industries,
but I s- particularly in like the
gun world and also in the hunting
world, we, we tend to eat our own.
Oh.
Like really, really badly.
Very much
so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've never understood that.
I- how, how do you deal with that?
I'm old enough and experienced
enough, I don't give a shit
what anybody thinks about me.
Excellent.
Excellent.
I,
I, I, I don't.
And again, I'm not gonna call
anybody out on social media,
'cause that's just not who I am.
Mm. It's not the personality.
At the same time, I am not gonna argue
with anybody about anything publicly.
Mm.
On, on social media, I'm not gonna do it.
That's not to say that I'm always right.
Sure.
I'm just not gonna do that in,
in the, in the public square.
Um, I, I, obviously I work for Sitka,
and, you know, people have their, their
opinions about that or, or other brands
or bow companies or, or optics or rifles.
And I, I truly, I truly believe this.
We're all in this together.
We're all passionate about what we do.
I call it the camo wars.
I am not going to engage in the camo wars.
Mm-hmm.
I am not going to start taking our tribe
and breaking it into sub-tribes to, to,
uh, and I love your words, to eat our own-
Mm
…
and, and take this community and
break it down, which only weakens it.
I, I'll tell you a story.
So the very first, this was January 2015,
the very first thing I ever did publicly
with Sitka was I went to the, uh, it
was called the, uh, SHOT Show, Shooters
Hunters Outdoor- Yep … Trade Show.
Giant show in Vegas.
And I was there in the booth, and
you know, people are coming by
and I'm having a great time and
kinda learning this whole thing.
And I purposely, when I had a break,
which wasn't often, I purposely went
down the aisle and s- and walked into
the booth and said hello and introduced
myself to our two biggest competitors.
Good.
And I said, "Hey, I'm John Barkla.
I'm here, work for Sitka.
Just wanna say hello.
Nice to meet you.
If you guys need anything,
you know, reach out.
Here's my card." Floored them.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, "Why wouldn't I do that?"
Right.
Yes, we can have healthy competition.
I got friends at all the brands.
Yeah.
Clothing brands, footwear brands,
you know, weapons, you name it.
I am not gonna ruin a friendship
over some BS business thing, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's just, unless, it, like I said,
even that, that, that company that I
had friends with, you know, I'm, I'm,
I had friends there that did this, this
one thing with the rewarming drill.
I would never call them out publicly.
Mm.
Never.
I, I had a conversation with them, you
know, privately about it, kind of cordial.
Didn't, like, bow up on them
and, and want to fist fight.
But I was like, "Guys," like, you
know… I, I said, "Honestly, if
you needed to know more information,
you could've just called.
I'd have told you exactly how to do it."
I didn't care that they did it.
Mm. I cared how they did it.
I agree.
That, that's, that's what
I cared about, you know?
But I, I think, you know, all… I
don't know about all industries, but
certainly ours, and I think it's because
with, especially with the advent of
social media, but I would say even
probably when the people were just
writing for magazines, everybody is
fighting for, you know, the spotlight.
Everybody's fighting for the clicks, the
views, the marketing dollars, and all this
kind of stuff And, you know, I'm fortunate
that I, I don't… I mean, I, it'd be nice
to have some of that and nice to sell the
book, but that's not why I'm doing it.
Mm-hmm.
That's not, that's not my,
that's not my driving principle.
I think that's just a component of it.
And, you know, people that sell
themselves for those, you know, views,
I, they either don't last very long
or their reputation gets tarnished.
And, and- Mm … the one thing I
learned in the military, man, working
in small special ops units, the
only thing you have to bring in and
take with you is your reputation.
And it's- I agree … really hard to
earn, and it's really quick to, to
tarnish, and you just don't wanna do that.
And I don't wanna do that, so.
No.
Well, it's interesting how you talk about,
"I won't have that conversation, I won't
have that camo war online. I'll take it
offline and have that conversation," and
how quickly, uh, it can turn on its head
if you get into that argument online
and it can spiral and go further and
further, and people are misinterpreting
what things are said, or maybe- Yeah
they're just… But you just pick
up the phone and call the person.
Yeah.
You know, the number of times that w-
I've had interactions where somebody
does something online and I'm able
to, "Okay, I know this person.
I can find this person and take that
conversation offline." There was one
time I remember that a, um, uh, this
woman had left a negative review for
the company under some pseudonym, and
I'm like, like, "What is this review?
What's this about?" I'm
trying to figure it out.
I can't find this person.
Uh, and I'm, and I'm genuinely
like, like, I wanna be able to
solve their problem for them.
And so I look at where else they
leave reviews, and one of them is
referencing, "Oh, this is a terrible
place to work for." So I call up
the workplace, talk to the boss.
I'm like, "Do you know who this
person is?" They're like, "Yeah,
I know who this person is." They
give me their contact information.
Now, maybe I'm taking things
a little too far, right?
But, uh, I contact this girl
up, and she's like, "How did
you find out who I was?" Right?
And, and I explained it to her.
She's like, "Oh, you're a piece of work.
You talked to my boss?
I mean, that person…" And she goes on.
And, and I said, "Well, lookit,
all I wanna do is I wanna sort this
out, see where the issue is, if
there's something that we can do."
And, um, I said, "I'm not asking
you to take the negative review off.
That's yours.
You do what you want, right?" Mm-hmm.
"Uh, you're looking for A, B, and C.
I can't give it to you.
I'm not gonna be held hostage to
this whole thing." Right, right.
Anyways, w- what that ended up in was
a glowing review despite my assurances
that I'm not giving her what she wanted.
Mm-hmm.
And she says, "You know what? I made a
mistake. I shouldn't have done this, and
I really appreciated the conversation."
But it also, it humanizes both of us.
Yes, yes.
I, I get, I get the opportunity
to see who I'm talking to.
They get to see where I'm coming from.
Yep.
We got families.
We have things that are,
are depending on this.
And I think that also helps build that
community that the eat your own online
mentality will, will kinda tear down.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I think that's why podcasts have-
become such a popular part of our
our culture now is because you can
have these long conversations, right?
It's not this, this clickbait and, and
flying, you know, zingers back and forth
to people on social media without any
kind of context or knowing who they are.
And it's just kinda like, you
know, it's like eating junk food.
It's like- Hmm … it's satisfying in the
moment, but it's really not gonna give
you anything, you know, to sustain you.
So yeah, but good for you for doing that.
Well, it was, it's inter- and I've,
and I apply that any time that
there's some level of conflict
or even if there's a level of not
conflict, people are really happy.
I'll do my best to… It's, it's easy.
Oh, yeah, okay, things are good.
We don't have to deal with that.
But I, I do my best to try and put
myself forward and thank the person and-
Mm-hmm
…
and make it personal.
You know, I, um, uh, when I was 16 years
old, you were talking about station
wagons earlier- … so it jogs the memory.
I take my wood panel station wagon.
Yes.
I'm in British Columbia, and- Yes
…
man- The fake… Well, ours was fake wood.
I don't know about yours in
Canada, but ours was fake wood.
Oh, yeah.
Station wagons.
No, ours was 100% fake wood.
You could peel that off.
Yep.
Yep.
Kind of a burgundy colored, uh-
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Ours was like, yes, damn, we might
have owned the same station wagon.
We might have.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I, I took my station wagon,
which could barely get down to the end
of my block, and I drove it a few hours
up to a family cabin that we have in
a remote area in the middle of winter.
So, um, it was like right after New
Year's, I think, right around then.
And this first time putting snowshoes
on and my pack and going out
and figuring all this stuff out.
Rented snowshoes from a local business.
They stayed up late on, on
New Year's Eve just so I could
get off work and get these.
Everything I thought was lining up.
The vehicle actually made it
up there and didn't break down.
And being 16 you're, you know, you're
in good physical condition in your mind.
Yep.
You can do anything.
And-
Yep
…
I've been there a lot of times.
I know they've haven't plowed
about 21 kilometers of this.
So, so we've got about 21k hike,
and then we've got, uh, it's a
fly in or hike in cabin anyways.
Then the actual hike starts.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I, uh, and at that time, one of the
owners, he was, um, a partner at Dentons,
a large law firm, and so we had this space
age, uh, I don't even think it was Dentons
then, but it was space age, uh, satellite
photography that I could navigate from.
Hmm.
And I'd never navigated off
of satellite photos before.
But, uh, I thought, oh, I could just
look at that and- Wow … this photocopy
of it, and I can make my way there.
Of course, everything looks
different from the satellite photos.
Oh, yeah.
And when it snowed, all of
the side roads looked the
same width as a normal
road, and so we get lost.
And it was middle of winter, I don't
know, -12 or so, and all of our
sleeping bags and warm weather stuff
was left in the station wagon because
we had to have enough room for all
the beer we were bringing in, right?
Seems reasonable.
Seems reasonable.
And, um, you know, I, I remember, uh,
the sun's out, and you're working damn
hard with a way-too-heavy pack on, and
it's hot, even though it's negative 12,
and you're out there with a T-shirt,
and you're, you're working hard.
And after a long time of not finding
kind of where we're going, and I remember
the sun was going down, I was trying
to, uh, search down this one steep
embankment area and fell in the snow
a couple times, and I realized that my
perception of it getting darker was more
than the actuality of it getting darker.
And I'm hypothermic.
I'm not, I'm not shivering anymore, right?
And, uh, it, it all ended as it ought to.
Obviously, I'm here.
The two people I'm with
are, are still alive.
Mind you, they never… did want to
go back again in the winter with me.
But, uh, that was my first kind of real,
uh, exposure to hypothermia and how
to stay warm in a cold place, and I'd
since had other ones where I've fallen
in icy water and had to deal with it.
But I would've, I think, really
benefited, whether or not I would've
actually been smart enough to listen to
it, but I would've benefited from your
experience and what you teach in rewarming
and, and not getting hypothermic.
Did you start that path in the
military, or was there previous
experiences that kind of, uh,
pointed you in that direction?
No, I really got that, I really got
that insight and information and, and,
uh, e- and education in the military.
I mean, I, you know, growing up
in northern Ohio, it, it's cold,
and we build snow forts and,
you know, and all those things.
And I look back and, I mean, my
mom didn't know what she was doing.
She was dressing us, but, you
know, she was actually, you know,
doing some, doing some of the
right things, you know, dressing in
layers and, and that kind of thing.
But, you know, when, when you're, when
you're underwater, uh, it doesn't--
you don't have to go very far down
to hit what's called the thermocline,
which is basically the, the sun's rays
and heat can only go so far, and then
you hit, you know, the cold layer.
Um, so I, I, I knew what cold was, but
of course, when you're diving, you just
kinda gut through it, and then when you
get back to the surface, they warm you up.
But it wasn't until I started really
pursuing, you know… So about halfway
through my career, this is before
the war, you know, my-- I was--
I had extra time on the weekend,
so I was living in California, my
wife and I, and so I started going
to the Sierra Nevada mountains.
I found-- got in with some mountain guide
buddies, and they started teaching me.
And it's like, well, maybe I'm just
gonna get out and become a mountain
guide, ski guide, you know, not a bum
necessarily, but, you know- … live
a little bit- Sure … little bit,
little bit different than the military.
And so I started acquiring all
these skills, and I started,
um, r- reading up and, uh
Like exploring how different people were
doing these things and look into some
of the best s- one of which, this guy
Mark Twight, became a mentor of mine.
Oh, yeah.
We actually hir- hired
him in the military.
Um, but you know, and I, I just, I don't
know how I did it, but, you know, starting
to email Mark like, "Hey, Mark, uh, you
know, what, what about, what about food?
Hey, Mark, what about clothing systems?
Hey, Mark, what about…" And, and
Mark was kind enough, I still have
the emails, I printed them out.
Um, and so just started to learn.
I started to incorporate some of
that into, uh, I was at a, a, a
active duty SEAL team on the West
Coast, and so I was doing a lot,
teaching a lot of their diving.
They called it combat swimmer
at the time, or still do.
Just a little more tactical way of diving.
But, um, and they, they asked me,
they're like, "Well, how can we, how
can we go from the water to the land and
like up these cliffs?" And so I started
teaching them climbing and then I started
teaching them, uh, I did a winter course
in California, and then I got invited
up to the training facility in Alaska,
which is where I ended up, uh, you
know, ultimately finishing my career.
And they said, "Hey, come up and, and
help us and, and bring some of your new
ideas and, and those kinds of things."
And so w- when I got it with the military
You know, it's, it, it, I, I enjoyed,
I enjoyed the crucible that it was.
But up there, when you're teaching
guys, especially when I got the call to
actually go up as one of the handpicked
people after three weeks after 9/11,
and they said, "Hey, this is for real.
We got to get guys into, into the
Himalayas, into the Hindu Kush in winter
immediately, and we have nothing to do
it, and we have no tactics or procedures."
They all, they all retired and aged out
with the Cold War, and guys were already,
you know, coming back and reporting
like, "Don't know how to wear snowshoes.
Snowshoes are bad.
Weapons are freezing when
you shoot on full auto.
We're freezing our, our asses off
because cotton BDUs are getting cold and
freezing." And, and so we started to come
up with, with ways that I, I like to say
make the soldier as durable as possible.
They were already mentally durable,
but we needed to give them the tools
that would help them in the field.
And so this rewarming drill that we
eventually came up with was one such,
uh, way to do that, which is worst case
scenario, we get these people wet after
normally a, a four-day mountain patrol
when all they want to do is go back, take
a hot shower, and drink a beer, and we
make them get wet and go through, through
this survival rewarming protocol, which
not only gives them confidence in the
gear, gives them confidence in themselves,
shows them the capability, and then it
allows them, if they ever find themselves
in anything anywhere remotely close to
that, that they're not going to panic
because they've already prepared, right?
Mm.
And so we even went so far as to It
was called a cold weather symposium,
but they brought in some of the world's
leading, I, I don't know if they were
like cold w- weather physiologists
or, or what the heck they were.
They were scientists.
Mm.
And we d- tried all these different
hypotherm- in-field hypothermic
rewarming protocols, and the only
way you can do that is by having some
knuckleheads volunteer to get hypothermic-
or at least close to.
Sure.
So we'd swallow these RFID chips
so they could monitor our internal
body core temp and all these things.
And we would, you know, one or two at
a time, we'd get in the water, we'd
get cold, they'd warm us up, or not,
you know- Mm-hmm … various levels.
And we eventually created this protocol.
So that's really where that all came
in is, you know, there was some theory,
there was some, you know, try- trying
things on my own, um, you know, freezing
my butt off on Mount Rainier, you know-
Mm … in a snow storm kind of thing.
Kind of sort of getting there, but it
really kind of all congealed when I,
I got up to the training facility in
Alaska and we started training guys
for this uncompromising environment
where failure wasn't an option.
Mm-hmm.
And I really appreciated, I really
appreciated that, and I probably come
off, I'm sure I come off in my videos
to a lot of people as like, you know,
some non-smiling hard ass, and that's
not my intent, but I just default
immediately back to those days because
to me, like this could be life and death,
and certainly have fun, but also don't
discount that what you're really doing
when you go out in the middle of nowhere
is kind of putting the chips on the table.
Mm-hmm.
And that's your preparedness at that
point is what potentially is going to
determine, you know, either a great
story to tell around a campfire someday
in the future or this epic tale of,
of survival and maybe even worse
Mm-hmm.
Well, your, the rewarming process,
I, if I'm remembering right, I think
you're, you did a video with another
Canadian guy, Adam Foss, and- Yeah
you guys jump into a couple of tanks and
have to break the ice to get in there,
and you're, you're showing a process.
But if I remember correctly,
you don't take off your wet
kit, you layer over top of it.
And I've always been of the mindset
of, like, when I get wet, I strip it
all down, try and wring it out, get
it back on, do what I, what I can.
What… Can you walk me through
the, um, the thinking on that?
Yeah.
So I, I've, I don't know.
There's, I, I've done it for
camera four or five times, I think.
Hmm.
Um, I did one version of it with
another Canadian, Adam Yonke.
Okay.
Who's another guy, BC guy from Kelowna.
But, um, so the, the idea is
if you understand your survival
protocols, I'll try to…
My answers are normally not short,
but I'll try to keep this manageable.
Uh, your survival protocols, you
remember them as the rule of threes.
Three hours without shelter, three
days without water, three weeks
without food Survival, shelter is your
number one survival, uh, priority.
Your mind is your number
one survival tool.
Clothing is the human being's first
line of defense against the elements.
It's why the first caveman put on
a loincloth, why the mountain man
put on a mount- a buffalo robe, and
why the modern-day hunter puts on
these technical clothing systems.
It allows us to go out in environments
that we would otherwise not be able
to if we were just naked, right?
Mm. So if you understand survival is your
number one survival priority, depending
on the situation… Now, this, I call
it the static rewarming drill because
essentially you're staying in place.
You're not going to move.
Worst case scenario, you're out in
really cold weather, inclement weather.
You're in a remote location.
You get wet.
You're crossing a creek,
the ice gives way.
You're walking across a log, you fall off.
You flip over, off the backside of a raft.
You flip your canoe.
Whatever the case may be.
Mm.
You've only got a very short amount
of time, and this is where you need to
understand your protocol and have, have
thought through it, hopefully trained
to it, and also had that communication
with you, whoever your partners
are, so that you're not bickering.
'Cause I like to say the clock starts.
Mm. So we fall off the raft.
We swim to shore.
We've got our, our pack.
The first thing I'm not gonna
do is take my clothes off.
Mm.
That clothing is shelter.
The other first thing I'm not gonna
do is try to start a fire, which could
be a futile endeavor, because I've
only got a certain amount of time.
And let's just, it varies, but
let's just say I've got 10 minutes.
That's not the time to go, "What
do I do now?" So the protocol, if,
big if, you have a, any, any of the
modern technical clothing systems
You can keep that layer on your body.
Yes, you can brush it off, you can try
to get the, you know, the water out.
It's not gonna absorb a lot of water
to begin with, but there will be water.
But the better course of action
is to immediately take care of the
immediate threat, which is losing more
body heat and becoming hypothermic.
So that's where instead of taking clothes
off, and I don't know what I'm gonna do
then, I could keep those clothes on and
put, say, down or an insulated puffy
jacket, maybe I've got a puffy pants on.
That's gonna start to trap body heat.
Now I can move.
Do we need to get away from the river?
Do we wanna set the tent up?
Because again, shelter is
our number one priority.
Secondary shelter being a tent, a lean
to, a tarp, something to get out of
the wind, get out of the elements-
Mm
…
is critically important.
So we do that.
Now, I'm still not gonna take my
clothes off because I'm not, I
haven't stabilized the situation.
So in that video Adam and I did,
we were in there for five minutes.
Our body core temp dropped, I
don't know, two, two and a half
degrees, something like that.
We immediately got out.
We put our puffy on.
We set the tent up.
We got inside and got
into our sleeping bags.
Now we're adding more insulation
A modern technical clothing
system and modern technical
insulations can handle the moisture.
They can handle these
worst case scenarios.
So now I'm in the tent, I've got my
puffy on, I'm in my sleeping bag.
You and I have stabilized the situation.
I'm starting to warm up a little bit.
The body heat that we've generated
by moving around, setting the
shelter up, has started to build
some heat inside the system.
Our body heat is actually gonna start
to, I call it, cook the system dry.
It's actually gonna start- Mm
pushing moisture from that
base layer away from my skin to
the outer layers of clothing.
Once it's away from my skin, I'm
gonna start to be able to, my body's
gonna be able to thermoregulate itself
better, to warm itself, to cool itself.
It doesn't matter if layer two, three,
and four is damp or wet or soaking wet.
It's what's right next to my skin.
That base layer is critical.
Mm.
So now we can say, "All
right, you start the stove.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna
get the water bottles.
We're gonna get a hot drink in us.
What are we doing?
We're stoking our internal
engine, this metabolic engine
that runs off food and fuel.
I'm gonna get some hot fluids in there.
Hopefully there's some calories to it,
and we're gonna s- we're gonna start
cranking that engine over, right?
We're gonna get that diesel
engine warming up." Okay, we good?
Great.
Now, eat a food bar or something,
because I'm now gonna boil water and
we're gonna eat a dehydrated meal.
We're gonna add more
calories on top of that.
We're really gonna get
the metabolism going.
And when you watch the video of
Adam and I, I get out shivering.
Adam starts to shiver after he gets out.
Very interesting that that-
Mm … happened, but it did.
But about 15 minutes in, in the
tent, from getting out of the water,
we're like, "All right, we f- we feel
like we stabilized the situation.
Yes, it still sucks.
Yes, we're still wet.
Yes, we still can't go anywhere.
But we're not gonna
die right this second."
Mm.
An hour in, Adam, I think,
start, stopped shivering.
We're laughing, we're eating.
Now, now we c- now that that
has been achieved, we've, we've
seeked equilibrium of some sort.
Now is when you and I
have the conversation.
"All right, man, go ahead,
take off the clothes you have.
If they're not drying yet, wring
them out." Mm. "Do you ha- do you
have an extra base layer?" I don't
carry any extra clothes, so the
answer from me is gonna be no.
Mm.
You're like, "Yeah, man, I've
got an extra base layer and an
extra, uh, mid layer." Okay, fine.
Take what you have off off.
Put the dry on.
But you're gonna have to put some wet
stuff back on, and I'll tell you why.
Because let's say we get out-
Maybe we put puffy on, maybe we set up
a shelter and get in there, and maybe
we, we eat, drink, have a hot drink.
But now the next, the next course
of action is we're gonna strip off
all those wet clothes, we're gonna
climb into our sleeping bags warm,
full belly, everything's awesome.
Hmm.
Until you wake up three hours from now
and those wet clothes are now a frozen
clump of uselessness- … that now
we're, we truly are naked and afraid.
Okay?
Because all you've done is not
only push off the tough decision,
but you've made it worse.
Hmm.
Because at some point in time, either
when the storm's still going or if you
can weather it and wait for it's over,
you're gonna have to get out and put that
cold, wet, frozen clothing back on- Mm-hmm
and still figure out how to dry it out
to get your ass out of the backcountry.
Mm-hmm.
So I'd rather do it up front, and
with a modern clothing system,
it's capable of doing that.
I strongly encourage people
to go and train and make sure
that it works and how it works.
Do it in your backyard, don't
do it in the middle of nowhere.
Hmm.
But you will gain confidence
in yourself and your kit.
You will say, "You know what?
I don't like how that pant performs.
I'm gonna try that pant.
I don't like how that
sleeping bag performs.
I'm gonna try that one." The reason we
did that in the military, because if
a guy does, if a guy skydives into the
ocean in the middle of the night and his
dry suit zipper is not clo- fully clothed
and he gets wet, and now he's gonna go
climb into a boat, and that boat's gonna
scream 70 knots across the water to get
to a place where he's gonna go onto a
land and stay there for the next two
weeks, he ain't not going 'cause he's wet.
Mm-hmm.
He ain't not going 'cause he's cold.
If the guy, you know, is swimming
to shore underwater and his dry suit
leaks or it gets torn on barnacles
on a pier, you have to deal with it.
Or you're crossing a canal in
Afghanistan and it's cold out, and
you're gonna be there laying still for
the next three days, you have to have
a capability of staying dry, warming
up, drying out, staying focused.
And so people always ask, "Yeah,
bro, but I'm not a spec ops
soldier." And I'm like, "I understand
that, but The human is the human.
No matter what we're
doing, that stays the same.
Human beings warm up, cool down, dry off
the same way, no matter what we're doing.
And no matter the weapon in our hand or
the mission set, a backcountry hunter and
a special operations soldier, they share a
lot of similarities in the sense that the
mission says you're going in, you're not
coming out till the sig- mission's over.
Okay, check.
And there's really no,
nothing but success.
There's no option for failure here.
Mm-hmm.
Okay?
That's pretty extreme.
But I would argue you're gonna drive
12 hours up into the mountains.
You're going to take two weeks of
vacation you saved up and spend all
the time to drive across the United
States, take time away from your family.
It took you 10 years to draw the tag.
You've got all this investment
in clothing and gear, and you're
gonna go into the mountains to
chase elk or mule, deer, or sheep.
And now that freak storm comes in
and gets you wet in August at 13,000
feet, or it snows in early September.
Are you… Do you wanna
leave because you got wet?
Do you wanna leave because you got cold?
Do you… I like to say, "I'm not gonna
get pushed out of the mountains by Mother
Nature. I'm gonna leave on my own terms."
Mm-hmm.
Modern clothing, coupled with training and
understanding its capabilities, allows you
to do things that hunters even 20 years
ago, let alone 50 years ago, excuse me,
who were wearing cotton and flannel- Mm
and denim.
'Cause I always get that question too.
"Well, my, you know, granddad did it,
Dad did it." And I'm like, "Yeah, you're
right." But, but when I can sit on
the glassy knob waiting for that one
opportunity for that bighorn to poke
himself out of the timber and I know
where he is, I'm gonna be there in the
storm when Granddad got pushed off the
knob and he's back in the wall tent
drinking whiskey with the fire going.
Mm-hmm.
Because those jeans get
wet, they're not drying out.
Mm-hmm.
I can, I can walk around the glassy knob
and dry myself out just with body heat.
So when you start to take it from the
extreme and start to apply it to more
realistic scenarios, you're like,
"Oh, okay, I'm not a spec op soldier,"
but we still have, we still have this
thing we wanna be really successful in.
And that success may be a dead animal.
It may be just being able to go
live there unsupported for 10 days
and, and have a great time with my
buddies- Mm-hmm … and, and not die.
Like, whatever it is, the modern
gear gives that, that capability.
And so I've never answered a question
ever in one sentence, so forgive me.
Um, but, but, but that's, but so that's
what this is all about, and that's
where the rewarming drill came from.
Mm-hmm.
And I saw such I saw such benefit
of bringing it to the backcountry
hunting community, and that's
why d- I've done the videos.
That's why I build the clothing.
That's why I test it similarly.
We can talk about the one I did with
Yonky, but Uh, even today when I'm
building a new pant, a new jacket, I
wanna see what the performance of it is.
I wanna see how that n- new clothing layer
integrates into everything else that I'm
going to bring that I've already used.
Is that new insulation really
gonna perform or is it not?
Is that pant really gonna dry or not?
Is it really gonna move moisture,
that base layer, or is it not?
And, and, and then I know what
I'm dealing with, and if there's a
place for it to fit into the system.
So real quick, can I talk about
the active rewarming drill?
Yeah.
So the only other way, and, and the
way that's-- It's a great way to intro
it and, and it's, 'cause the other
one's extreme, I understand that.
Takes time.
But you and I could go to a trailhead.
Pick our favorite trailhead, right?
And we could drive there, and
we've got, uh, if there's no creek,
we bring a bucket full of water.
Mm-hmm.
If there's a creek, bring the bucket,
fill it with water when you get there.
And have all your, have your backpack for,
like, a day hunt or even an overnighter.
Doesn't matter.
Mm.
And now pull off, out, out of the
back of the pickup truck, pull all the
clothing you would normally wear to hike.
Say, a base layer top, pair
of boxers, a pair of pants.
Maybe you got a, some type
of, like, fleece hoodie.
Put that in the bucket of water and
get it as wet as you possibly can.
Pull it out, wring it out, strip
down, put that wet clothing on, lace
up your boots, put on your pack, and
you and your buddy start walking.
Start a timer when you start walking.
Be cognizant of if, and, and it,
it helps if it's a little cool
out in the morning, 'cause it'll-
Mm-hmm … drive a sense of urgency.
How far down the trail, how
many minutes before we start
to say, "Oh, you know what?
I'm actually not cold anymore.
Actually, can we slow our pace down?
'Cause I'm starting to sweat."
Mm.
Think about how long it takes, and
be cognizant of, "Oh, my base layer's
starting to dry out. My pants are
starting to dry out." Normally it's
gonna be in the thighs, in the seat.
Normally it's gonna be in your upper
chest, on your, on your shoulders, right?
Stop every hour and
say, and check yourself.
Mm. "Is my base layer dry?
Do I feel comfortable?" If I fell
in the creek walking over the log on
that spring bear hunt, and I said,
"I'm three miles from the truck.
I don't have the capability to
set up a tent and go through
John's static rewarming.
I'm gonna cut my distance to
safety and improve my position, and
start hiking back to the truck."
I'm probably gonna get back to the truck
in three miles and go, "What was the big
deal? I'm dry- Yep … and warm." Sure.
"I can reset." With some new
socks and go back the next day.
Mm-hmm.
So I call that the active rewarming drill,
and what that does is it shows you the
performance of your system to manage
moisture, and it gives you a confidence.
And it also allows you to, again,
to say, "I like that pair of pants.
I don't like that pair of pants."
Mm.
"
I like my synthetic base layer.
I prefer merino wool." And
go back and try it again.
It's a great way to, to bond with
your partners, great way to get in a
workout, and it's a great way to test
the performance of your clothing system.
Yeah.
So sorry, that was like
a 30-minute answer, but-
No, that, that was a
great answer … there's
a lot there.
Yeah.
You know, there, there's
a few things I picked out.
Uh, first one, kinda casually,
living in British Columbia, a
coastal environment- Oh, yeah … it
sounds really, sounds really nice.
We live in a rainforest, right?
Well, that just means
it rains all the time.
Yeah.
And the, the idea of truly, like
certain months, certain times of
the year, of truly having things
dry out is, it's just not happening.
You're- It's not
happening, right
…
you're, you're dealing with the wet.
But the other one that might be
paradoxical to people as they
listen to it, I know I was trying
to piece it together a little bit.
So you talked about Mark Twight.
Mark Twight wrote Extreme Alpinism- Yep
… and, uh, what, it's like Kiss, Kill, Beg.
Yeah, uh,
Kiss, Kiss or Kill.
Kiss or Kill.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
Uh, couple great books.
Um, actually, um, yeah,
he's an interesting guy too.
He'll, he's free and open with
his, uh-
C-
can I, can I, can I
share something with you?
Yeah.
I've never s- I haven't
said this publicly yet.
Yeah, yeah.
So this is gonna be the first
public announcement of this.
Um, Mark was gracious enough to
write the forward for my book.
Seriously?
Yeah.
Okay, so-
Yeah
…
yeah, I know, um, years ago, right
when COVID first started, I talk, was
talking with Mark, and he's like, "I'd
love to do a podcast, but you gotta come
down to either my studio in Salt Lake."
Oh, he wants it in person.
Yep,
yep.
Yeah, it's gotta be in person.
Yep.
I'm like, "100%. I'm, I'm on it. I'll
fly in a plane." And then all the planes
were locked down, and I, I sh- I should
pick that one up again, but- Well,
he lives in Bozeman now.
Does he?
Right
where I live, yeah.
Okay.
Yep.
Yeah, he, I think he had two
places, one there- He did
and then he had a studio.
Okay.
He did, yeah.
Well, Bozeman, I, I think
I can get behind that.
I know- Yeah … friends, a good
friend of mine is a, um, IMFGA mountain
guide, uh, ACMG, IMFGA mountain guide.
He did, um, a Special Forces selection in
the UK there for SAS- Okay … and, uh-
Yeah, yeah.
Wow … and he says, and he says,
um, you know, the, um, uh, the
whole IMFGA route to, to get
certified is, is pretty intense.
And, and this Mark Twight guy, he,
he was actually the one who turned me
on to him to be, be- to begin with, a
lot of his teachings that he has apply
in my mountaineering world, but they
also apply in my, my military world.
And we, uh, there's, there's a quite a,
uh, an interesting overlap between what-
Yeah
Special Forces does and
what Mark kinda goes over.
Yeah.
But-
Yeah, I, I've, I've
learned so much from Mark.
I give him credit for a
lot, even in the book.
I'm honored that he wrote the forward.
But- No
kidding
…
you know, his, his teachings and what he
did, he doesn't get as much credit, 'cause
he doesn't talk about it, but what he did
for the US Special Operations community,
I can't speak for other countries, I, I
do believe he worked with others, UK and,
and Canada, but, um, what he did to help-
To help more than anything, I
said, "Mark, what you've done is
you've provided a perspective and
a mindset that we did not have."
And Extreme Alpinism is a book about
alpinism or alpine climbing, but most
of us, to include myself, would say
that was the Bible that allowed us
to prepare for war in the mountains.
Mm-hmm.
And he, obviously he never wrote it with
that intent, but it was about the mental
preparation and, and pushing the extremes
and testing your limits and, and working,
you know, with your partners and, and
crisis nutrition and, and all these things
that, again, like your buddy said, there's
so many crossovers, there's parallels
that you can pull from, and you don't have
to go as extreme as those folks, right?
Mm. But for the backcountry
hunter, you're still going into a
remote area, you've got this goal.
It's this dynamic, chaotic
environment you can't control.
All you can control is you,
your gear, your preparation.
Like, man, all those lessons still apply.
So the one part that I thought
was possibly paradoxical, but
you may have answered it in the,
uh, uh, the trust in your kit.
It is Mark Twight is known for go fast,
go light, because the longer you're out
there with a heavy pack, the more exposure
you have, but know when to turn around,
and there'll be times when he heads back.
So the paradoxical part is
you don't bring extra kit, but
you're also not turning around.
You're leaving on your own accord, right?
There's a-
So there's, there's, it,
it, wow, such a great point.
So, you know, if, if you t- if you
s- I mean, what modern alpinists are
doing today is, is absolutely insane.
Even Mark would agree, but of course
Mark was doing it back in his day.
Mm-hmm.
But the thing they, I mean, maybe they
reference, maybe it's implied, maybe
people who don't know or aren't aware
don't, don't take for granted is-
When you're cutting it to the fine razor's
edge, you have to know your limitations,
which, which comes from experience, right?
And if those guys get a bad weather
window, if the storm comes in, if
they drop the stove, if somebody
loses an ice ax, they're, they're
turning around and going back.
Mm. They're turning around
and dr- and going down, okay?
Because they have not built
a margin of safety in.
I mean, they haven't built
a big margin of safety in.
Sure.
It's, it's very, very narrow
because they're very, very
fine-tuned and good at what they do.
I think people take the through hikers
mindset, or they'll, they'll hear me talk
on a, on this podcast and be like, "I'm,
I'm doing it. I'm cutting the toothbrush.
I'm not bringing the stove." You know?
John said don't bring any extra clothes.
Yeah.
And the reason I'm hesitant to say some
of those things sometimes is just because
you have to understand the context.
Mm. One, I've got over 40 years of
experience, 30 of it professionally.
But
The, the, the asterisk is if you're
gonna go out there and you're
gonna run a cold camp, you're not
gonna bring a sleeping bag, you're
only gonna bring a bivy sack, um
You have to have the mature
decision-making ability to say, "I've
gotta turn around and leave now."
Hmm.
That's still my terms.
Sure, sure.
I'm not getting, like, forced out, right?
But I've purposely,
consciously made that decision.
I'm leaving.
Hmm.
Now, if I'm flying in or packing in
on horses for a two-week moose hunt-
Hmm
…
I'm bringing more stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Because I'm staying, and I've got
the ability to bring more stuff.
But if I wanna go chase this mule deer
that I've been seeing at 13,000 feet
in Colorado, and my tactic is, "Hey,
man, I can get in there, I can kill
this buck in two days and get out, and
to do that I need to travel as light
as humanly possible," that's awesome.
And I've, I, I tell more stories in the
book of failure than I ever do success.
Oh, interesting.
And oftentimes it's me doing these kinda,
like, ridiculous things where I'm like,
"I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna get
out, but if it doesn't work, I have to
pull the pin right now and leave." Mm-hmm.
Because I have not built any margin
of safety in to allow me to weather
that snowstorm for three days.
I got caught on Mount Rainier
with a buddy one time.
We were going in to climb it up
and down in, in just one push.
Wow.
And we got stuck halfway up the
mountain for, in a three-day blizzard.
And- It's, it's not a forgiving mountain
…
only thank goodness at the very last
second did we throw in this little
experimental tent, and it saved us.
But what really saved us was the luck of
another group of climbers coming in in
the blizzard, they must've been behind us,
and setting up a very big, robust North
Face tent that they allowed us to cook
and socialize in their vestibule Before
we had to go back into this windy, drifty-
Huh
…
barely adequate shelter,
um, on the mountain.
Because our only other alternative at
that point was to, you know, hunker
down, which is what we chose to do, but
if without them, we might've had to say,
"We're gonna have to find our way back
down the mountain through the crevasses-
Mm-hmm … in a blizzard," which is
obviously not a, a very good choice.
Was the other group that came up,
and probably not, but just weird
coincidences in the world, was
the other group that came up, were
they Canadians or the Americans?
Boy, I wouldn't even remember-
Okay
…
honestly.
I, I wouldn't even remember,
it's been so long ago.
Fair enough.
I know it was like a VE,
North Face VE 25, the big one.
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
Uh- Yeah … bu- buddy of mine
told me a similar story, Canadian
fellow, about some Americans and-
Hell, it might've been, man
That's, that's why- If you
wanna talk, that- I don't know.
That would be a, that would
be a crazy coincidence.
That would be a hell of a coincidence.
That would be.
'Cause I give those guys c- a
lot of credit for saving us.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, now my mind totally went
on a, uh … off, off track.
Uh, you were talking about, uh, mindset.
There, there was one other piece
in there I wanted to touch on,
but I'm sure it'll come back.
Crisis nutrition or…
Yeah.
Well, uh, on the mindset side, how do you,
uh, how do you keep your mind straight?
How do you, uh, I, I mean, there are books
and there's lessons and courses on mental
toughness, but what, what do you do?
Well, the first thing is I think that
when you plan and prepare, that that
creates confidence, and that confidence
allows you to endure some difficult
times, and it allows you to make better
decisions than if you didn't have that
confidence based on not, you know, bro
science and bravado, but, you know,
actual preparedness and, and planning.
Hmm.
So I think that is, uh, the first
component of that, i.e., I tested
my system, I shot my weapon, I
know how to set up the tent in
the dark, in the wind, whatever.
I think the other part of it is for
me, and you hear this a lot from other
people going through, you know, different
military selections or, you know, running
a 200-mile ultra race or whatever is- Hmm
keeping your world small and keeping…
Not overwhelming yourself, which for
me is easy to do 'cause I'm like this
planner and I'm thinking details.
Hmm.
I can't think of the 200-mile race,
I can't think of the 10-day hunt.
I can only think of, you know, getting
to the next rest break, getting
to the glassy knob, getting- Hmm
to camp.
Um, you know, the, the next meal.
Eating the elephant in small bites, right?
Okay.
Because if not, it's real easy,
especially when you're, when you're new
to it, to stand there at the, at the
trailhead and look up into the mountains.
You get dropped off and, you know,
the last sounds of the float plane-
and you have nothing but your
own thoughts in your head to-
Mm-hmm … really self-destruct.
Mm-hmm.
And at that point, it's what's
the first task, what's the second
task, what's the third task?
When, you know, when's,
when's the next meal?
Um, w- you know, hey, you know, let's
see who can spot, you know, the, the,
the first legal ram and, and that
person buys the beer when we get out
of here, or that person, you know,
gets first shot or whatever it is.
Hmm.
And you just, you just set these really
short goals that you can work through,
um- You know, I, a- and that's not
to say I'm, I'm, I'm not, uh, I'm not
immune to becoming overwhelmed at times,
but then I just try to look at the
immediacy of what I need to do next.
Mm.
And so I've talked to a lot of guys who
are like, "Yeah, you know, I've, I've
got this, you know, seven-mile hike
to get into base camp," as an example.
Mm.
"
And I've got altitude or a pass to go over
or whatever it is and, you know, it just,
it kicks my butt and…" And I'm like,
"Well, have you ever thought about just
hiking for 50 minutes and stopping for
10, and hiking for 50 minutes and stopping
for 10?" And so instead of thinking
about the seven miles and the pass you
need to go over, you're thinking about,
"Well, in 50 minutes I'm gonna stop.
We're gonna get something to eat, get
some water, look at the map, and then
we're just gonna go for another 50
minutes." Mm. "Then we're going for
another 50 minutes." Now, I'm really
bad at that, and I'm really quite good
at putting my head down and not wanting
to stop, but I realized and I learned
when I was, when I was instructing
and I had guys, and, and not just from
a, a military tactical perspective,
but being able to manage people in a
collective, in a group, and like, "Hey,
do we need to, you know, strip a layer?
Do we need to, you know, fix a blister?
Do we need to do that?" And, and when
the group decides we're gonna do this
at 50 minutes, then everybody holds
each other accountable and you're like,
"No, you said we'd stop at 50 minutes.
Look, we're stopping at 50
minutes." And so all these
little things I, I think help.
Planning and preparing build confidence.
Confidence allows you
to make good decisions.
Keeping your world small, thinking
about the immediate task at hand, and
then just going from there, right?
And all that over time, based w- on
some experience, really starts to
build… It's not m- it's not, it's
not necessarily mental toughness,
because you can talk to people who are
like, "Bro, I, I ice bath every day.
I hit my workout.
I do my runs.
I'm up at 4:00 AM," whatever it is.
They have the discipline.
They have the mental discipline.
They have the toughness.
But what I think oftentimes, and I'm,
I'm guilty of it 'cause I love it.
But we romanticize the backcountry.
Sure.
We romanticize the mountains, okay?
And we should to some extent, but we
should also tell them, dot, dot, dot,
that it's lonely, that it's painful- Mm
that you're hungry, that you're
thirsty, that your feet hurt, that
you question everything you're doing.
You wonder if you'll ever be
able to kill another animal ever.
Are you good enough to be here, you know?
Mm-hmm.
What if things to death.
Like, that's part of it as well,
and I think that if you're coming
from, and I talk about this, I write
about this, but when you're coming
from an organized sport, soccer,
football, baseball, even, even ultra
runs where there's aid stations-
Mm
and there's a time limit.
Well, they're gonna pull me
off the course at 12 hours.
Well, we only play 15-minute, uh,
quarters, or, you know, if I get hurt,
the doc's gonna run on the field and, and
take care of me, or there's gonna be a
referee to call a timeout if I need it.
None of that happens in the mountains.
Mm-hmm.
It's not an organized sport, and I
think that sometimes it's easy to get
overwhelmed, like, "Bro, did I pack
everything I needed to? Do I have enough
food? Can I warm up and dry out if I
get wet?" And you start to question
yourself until you get some experience,
and it's, it's not this organized thing.
And so I think you owe it to yourself-
Or you owe it to the people that
you're leaving behind, your family-
Mm-hmm
…
to prepare because I don't know
of anybody, certainly I have never
come back from a backcountry hunt
and said, "I was over-prepared.
I was in too good a shape." "I crushed
this and was better than I needed to be."
Mm-hmm.
I've never, I've never done that.
No.
I always come back going, "I need to do
this better, I need to do that better,
I need to remember this, I need to
bring that." Now, I've had good hunts
where things have gone well, but there's
always something more to learn, right?
And so I think when you're really fit
in the gym, you can kick your butt
at altitude, 'cause you're trying
to do your, you know, your splits.
Mm. It's like that's not the
kind of environment it is.
The environment is you need to be durable
and you need to be capable of enduring
the elements to achieve whatever you're
trying to achieve when you're out there.
So if my AI overlords are, um,
correct in my research for this,
and like I say, I got seven pages
of research- Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah
that I was putting together ahead of
time, which has bit me in the butt before.
That was, uh, Jim Shockey, talking with
him, and, uh, it said that he was with
a… I kept digging in, like, "What's
one thing no one's asked him about?
What's one…?" And he, he says,
"Oh, ask him about his time with
the PPCLI, Princess Patricia's
Canadian Light Infantry."
So I ask him.
"The what? The pee pee what?" Anyway, so
all right, how do I recover from this one?
But, um, okay, you've talked about
cu- hunts where everything go well.
What about something I read about,
um, I think it was a BC hunt where,
uh, pack mules and things went wrong.
Yeah.
No, like I said, I've had, uh, I've had…
I mean, I've had lots of success.
I've been blessed.
I'm, you know, not, not, not gonna tell
you I haven't been and all that, but-
Beautiful
You know, what, what, what can be
overlooked when you, when you see things
like that is all the hunts where you
didn't get anything, where something-
Hmm … did go wrong, where I, I got
lonely and decided to leave early, and
then regretted it for the next, you know,
year till I could go back and kind of,
uh, you know, redeem myself so to speak.
And yeah, that, that particular hunt,
and, and it, it's, it's not, uh,
it's not 'cause it's bad or anything.
I just- Hmm … I, I won't
mention the outfitter.
He's a friend of mine.
They do great.
Um, but I'm not the great… I'm not
the best horseman by any means, right?
And this was gonna be my first
real, you know, Canadian horseback
hunt in the middle of nowhere.
We flew in.
And, you know, I'm, I'm going into this
hunt with a, an incredible amount of
experience, not necessarily with horses.
But, uh, yeah, so
everything was going good.
I mean, the hunting wasn't that great.
I never even saw a bull moose.
Um, but we had some success
in camp, had some fun.
But on the ride out, 'cause we
were the last people in camp, we
were gonna trail out back to the,
the, the, you know, the road.
And, uh, the conditions were not good.
Everything was iced over.
Winter was coming in, pushing us out of
the mountains in, you know, mid-October.
And, uh, long story short, in the dark
riding without headlamps through the most
treacherous part of the trail where, I
don't know, if memory serves, there were
a lot, a lot of horse skeletons- Hmm
from other, excuse me, from other
horses who had not been fortunate
enough to make it out of there.
We'd already gone through some bogs
that, that almost swallowed a few horses.
Anyways, luckily we were riding
through this thing in the dark,
and I'm just following the horse.
My horse is following the
horse in front of him-
Mm-hmm
which is being trailed by one of the
wranglers, and she's like, "Yeah,
don't… You know, just keep the
headlamps off," and this and that.
And we had 24 horses I think.
A lot of, a lot of
horses, a lot of people.
And the next thing I know
'Cause I can't see anything.
I just realize that my horse
has fallen on top of me- Mm
and I am pinned against, thank God, a
flat boulder on my left side, a tree
pushing on the back of my neck, and
this giant 1,400 pound, I think he was
a Friesian, laying on top of me, in
the dark with guys behind me that are
gonna ride right on top of me because
they don't know anything's happened.
So of course, 'cause I was in the Navy
and I'd got a merit badge in, in swearing,
that I started swearing out loud.
Um, and, you know, immediately… So
nobody rode on top of me, but immediately-
Mm … I see headlamps start popping
on, and I knew that I had to get out
from underneath this horse really
quick, 'cause if he started to thrash-
Mm
…
he was gonna tear me up
And, uh, so luckily my left
foot was out of the stirrup.
I got… I took my pack off.
I got f- out from underneath the horse,
who's now stuck in this hole, and as
the lights come on, I turn my light on.
We are riding through a giant
boulder field with this very narrow
secur- circuitous path through.
Mm.
And he had just stepped wrong one
way and fell in, like, a three-foot
hole, and is now wedged in, in
this hole between these boulders.
So luckily we were able to cut down
that one little tree that had pinned
me, took off his saddle, and eventually
got him to stand, or it probably
wasn't gonna end… He was gonna
be another skeleton on the trail.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so it worked out okay.
Seemingly, I was unhurt.
I'm not going to necessarily tell
you it was a direct result of
the wreck, but I will tell you
that the wreck did nothing to…
It probably sped up me getting my left
hip replaced, uh, which would've been two
years ago, which would've been, I don't
know, six years probably post horse wreck.
Mm.
Um, to add insult to injury of getting
in the wreck, I call it a wreck, I don't
know what- Yeah, yeah … you're supposed
to call it, but getting in the horse
wreck, 'cause it felt like a car wreck.
Mm.
Um, never seen a legal bull, having
everybody in camp kill wonderful
moose and mountain caribou.
To add insult to injury, uh, I got
giardia 15 days after coming home.
Oh.
Uh, and that's honestly the part that
I'm most upset about, 'cause hunting's
hunting, you know, things happen.
Mm-hmm.
The reason I'm upset about the giardia,
I'm not upset at the outfitter.
I could be.
Like I said, he's a friend of mine.
But me and my two buddies got it.
Nobody else.
The outfitters and wranglers,
they didn't get it.
The guides, they'd been living
there for three months, right?
Mm. Their, their guts
were probably used to it.
What upsets me is that I shoulda
known better, and I… Not that I
trusted people wrongly, but I should
have brought, 'cause we were flying
in and riding horses, and I know that
water is such a priority, and I'd been
drinking water or choosing to drink
water selectively from streams without
filtration or purification for decades
And I knew on day one or two that we
were probably in for it because of
the water sources we were gathering it
from, where the horses were hobbled.
And, uh, I'm pissed at myself
because I didn't bring a filter.
Sure.
I didn't bring a SteriPEN.
I didn't bring something to
back myself up, and I should've.
Hmm.
And so that's an unforced
error on my part.
So yeah, the horse wreck, yeah,
the not good hunting, it was
still a wonderful adventure.
That's the part, getting the giardia
because I didn't think through a possible
scenario is what, is what irritates me.
Yeah.
That's giardia.
Does it, does it stick around for a while?
Um-
Or
you get a- … as soon as you, as
soon as you take the medication, like
within hours, you feel much better
and you don't have the symptoms.
Okay.
Within 12 hours, all
the symptoms are gone.
I think you take it for seven to 10 days.
I can tell you
That it is a humiliating,
miserable experience that I would
only wish upon my worst enemies.
I never wanna get it again,
and I will do everything in my
power to never get it again.
Mm.
But I've heard, 'cause my, the one,
the first guy that said he had symptoms
has had it like three or four times,
and he said his, his doc said that
once you get it you're more prone
to potentially getting it again.
Okay.
Um, how I got it, it was 13 or 14
days post getting out of the field.
The gestation period's supposed
to be no longer than, it's like
seven to 10, seven to 15 maybe.
I, I j- it just, I still don't
know exactly where, how, but, you
know, maybe that was just the way
my body was able to process it.
But yeah, one guy got it in seven
days, one guy's symptoms started in
10, and mine started like 13 or 14.
So this last November I had knee
surgery, probably too much weight
going up and down in the mountains.
And, um, you know, a friend of mine,
he's been on the podcast a couple
times now, uh, ex, uh, PH from
Africa, and he does, um, security.
He was, uh, Oprah's bodyguard and
there's few, few famous people in there.
So those are fun episodes to talk about.
But, um, he says, "Trav, don't let the
old man in." Okay, now you've had your
hip surgery, hip replacement there.
What do you do to not let the old
man in, or is there a process of
gracefully, uh, accepting things?
Because in my mind, I don't see
a gracefully accepting things-
No
…
for myself.
No.
So I'm gonna try not to swear,
but I'm just gonna say heck no.
Oh,
you
swear.
I'm gonna say heck no.
Yeah, okay.
Uh, I'm gonna tell you something.
So I told you about the left hip
I had replaced two years ago.
Mm-hmm.
I had my right replaced 10 weeks ago.
10 weeks ago.
And I challenge you to come do a hike
with me, get in the gym- … and tell
me I had my right hip done 10 weeks ago.
Good for you.
Because-
Because I just had to do it.
Yeah.
And so it's maintenance, and it's like,
I'm going into it going, "Hell no, this
isn't gonna stop me. Hell no, this isn't
gonna define me." Yeah, it might take me,
you know, I think it took me two weeks.
It took me two weeks longer
to like get back to I'll call
it 98% this one than- Sure
the last one.
Two years older, you know?
Sure.
But I, I trained.
I trained for surgery.
That's the piece.
That's why I originally quit drinking.
Mm-hmm.
I changed my diet.
I needed to remove inflammation.
I needed to take weight off.
I needed to get more mobile.
I needed to get stronger and fitter
for surgery so I could recover- Mm-hmm
quicker.
That's the piece.
Yeah, I get it.
Like, you know, I, I'm the, I'm
the quote old, old guy, right?
In the military, I'm 42.
And I'm running around with guys that
are 18 and 20 are phenomenally fit.
Mm-hmm.
How did I keep up?
How did I balance it?
Not by saying, "Hey guys, we're
gonna take a break 'cause I'm tired."
Mm.
It's 'cause I've got a lot of experience.
I've got good technique.
I, I know, I know what I'm
getting myself into, right?
And so that balanced out their fitness.
It's the same thing with
the backcountry hunter.
But no, I think it's a
mindset, going back to mindset.
Uh, and you know, a- am I as… You
know, I lost a step when I turned 40.
I, I lost, I said I lost
half a step when I turned 40.
Mm. I lost another half when I turned 50
But I've also got more experience,
and so I challenge people.
I'm like, "Yeah, I'll go out with
you. I might, I might keep up, I
might not, but I, I'll probably
be the last person standing here
too." And, and I'm certainly here to
answer questions when you have them.
So it's, it's just a different
way of shifting it, right?
I'm trying to be smarter,
not, not be harder.
'Cause I can't be.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm not giving up.
I mean, give- giving up, giving in
is like, that's a death sentence.
I might have to hunt elk or, or
mule deer or sheep differently when
I'm 60 or 70 than I did when I was
30 or 40, but that doesn't mean
you don't have to go and do it.
Agreed.
It's just a little bit of a sliding scale.
But I'm not letting the old man in.
I'm not letting the old man in at all.
I'm the oldest guy, there's me and
another guy are tied, but I'm the oldest
guy at Sitka, and I've got, me and,
me and my buddy Eric, we've got most
people at the company beat by 20 years.
Really?
Yeah.
But it's attitude, man.
It's, it's-
100%.
I mean, you know, I have no idea
how old you are, don't care, but
I know that you get after it.
I can just tell by your attitude,
you're not gonna give up.
If you love it enough like I think we do-
Mm-hmm
…
you're not gonna find excuses to
quit, you're gonna find reasons to
keep going, and you're gonna, you're
gonna just modify your behavior.
And yeah, I had to stop drinking.
And I told myself, "John, you can't do
the same thing at 50 that you were able to
do at 30 and expect to perform the same."
Right.
You have to start modifying behavior.
And, and I did, and I'm happy with
that, and I'm sure I'll have to
refine it a little bit- … going
forward, and that's fine.
I'm willing to pay that
to keep doing what I love.
Yeah.
I agree.
Well, I don't think we've, um,
t- touched on your book enough.
Uh, who's the optimal audience for the,
uh, the book that's gonna be coming out?
So this podcast so far has been
absolutely wonderful because it
hasn't just focused on hunting.
I think we've talked about, you know,
the climbing aspect and just, you know,
through-hiking and things like that.
My book draws on, I'll say 40 years,
but really specifically 30 years of
experience in the mountains, on my own
adventures, teaching professionally,
teaching thousands of guys,
professional search and rescue teams.
And basically I try to bring all my
lessons learned- Here's what I did wrong.
Here's what I learned from it.
Here's how you can maybe
avoid the same mistake.
Mm.
It is for anybody who is looking
to go out into the mountains, out
into the backcountry to pursue
any kind of outdoor adventure.
It, the book is for them.
I talk about backcountry hunting.
I talk about alpine climbing.
I talk about backcountry skiing.
I talk and relate to stories of,
uh, you know, military training.
And I use those stories to provide
context, to provide some authenticity to
what I'm speaking of, and to drive home
key points of learning where I say, "Hey,
you know, if I were you, I'd learn to ride
a horse before you go to British Columbia
on a 14-day horseback hunt." Yeah.
"And here's why
That's the knowledge from the
storms that the book is named after.
So there's hunt- there's, again,
there's hunting stories for sure.
Mm.
But there's stories of, you know,
partnerships in the mountains on climbing
trips where things did not go well.
Mm.
But I believe those stories and
those lessons can be extrapolated
to any backcountry partnership,
no matter what you're doing.
And, and crisis nutrition, you know,
I, that's what I call how we fuel
ourselves in the backcountry in
this kind of dynamic environment.
You know, I, I, I, I talk about
stories from, from the military.
I talk about stories, you know,
and, and things Mark related to me.
Um, so it, it's an
amalgamation of adventure.
I call it part adventure
narrative, part instruction manual.
And, and anybody who's interested
in going outdoors and just pursuing
whatever it may be, I think
there's something in it for them.
Awesome.
Well, I'm looking forward to reading it.
Is there anything that we
should be talking about that
we haven't talked about?
Well, I, my mind was going down
the… 'Cause I've, I've got some
other stuff online, but let's
not promote that at the moment.
Um-
Hold on, the, you do have something else.
Isn't there an Outdoor
Class, outdoorclass.com?
Yeah, so I, I'm one of the
instructors for what this is called,
uh, it's called Outdoor Class.
It's outdoorclass.com.
Hmm.
It's owned by Rocky
Mountain Elk Foundation.
And they've got a wonderful stable
of instructors, some of the best
at what they do in their fields.
Everything from, you know, Corey
Jacob from Elk Hunting, Randy Newberg,
Antelope Hunting, uh, Remy Warren's
got a course in there I think on
backcountry mule deer hunting.
There's cooking.
You know, so I, I'm building
out my courses on kind of the
things we've talked about.
I've got a course on
backcountry mission planning.
My second course is survival
for the modern outdoors man.
My third course is backpack
hunting, and I've got eight more
that, that I've got coming out.
Um, two of which, uh, you
know, have already been filmed.
And, you know, for, for an annual, for
I think a meager annual membership- It,
it is meager
…
you don't, you don't get access
to John Barklow and his courses.
You get access to
everybody in the ecosystem.
And it's worth it for just one of them.
It's… I, I agree.
Even for me it's like, man, to have
acc- we talked about it, to Corey
Jacobson's Elk 101 that has probably
70 individual chapters now- Mm-hmm
is just insane.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
But there's unique courses.
Randy Newberg talks
about antelope hunting.
I don't know if there's another course
in the world about hunting antelope.
Mm-hmm.
He talks about cow elk hunting.
I'm like, who does a course
about cow elk hunting?
Well, Randy did, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Um, so yeah, that's unique.
So there's some fun stuff there.
And then on, uh… So that, but that,
that's, you know, that's a pay to play.
But, uh, I also work with Montana Knife
Company, and on their YouTube channel,
which is, I believe Montana Knife
Company- Mm-hmm … there's the MKC
Survival Guide, and I've got I think
60 videos or close to so far, uh, 60
videos on there, and it's everything
we've talked about and then some.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, everything.
I'm, I'm gonna do some stuff on, on map
reading and, you know, there's mindset.
We, we actually did one of the
rewarming drills with Josh Smith there.
But that's just, you know, lots and lots
and lots of content there that's free,
that people can just dive into, probably
go down all kinds of rabbit holes.
Hmm.
Again, at this part of my life, I
mean, I'm, yeah, I'm still having
my own adventures, but I, I really
just feel this, this compulsion,
this, this, this need to give back.
Um, I like to tell people, you know,
at the end of the day, you've gotta
climb the mountain for yourself.
I can help you start a little bit higher
on the mountain, but ultimately you've
gotta do the rest, you know, on your own.
I can help you avoid maybe some of
the common pitfalls and, you know,
you don't have to make all the same
mistakes I made or had to remake the
same mistakes that I had to re- relearn.
Um, but it's a great resource.
I think there's so many great resources.
These podcasts are another great resource.
Uh, but you know, ultimately it's like go
out there and have your own adventures,
and if you don't have all the gear or
you're not ready to go in the middle of
nowhere for 10 days, it's like who cares?
Go out for an overnight.
Go out for a long day.
Um, you know, hunt around the house,
then hunt in another province or state,
then maybe hunt in another country.
It's like I, I like to say that
I'm a student of the game, and I
think if you approach it that way,
which is to say I'm never gonna be a
master, but I'm gonna seek mastery.
Hmm.
And that ever since I, you know, that
13-year-old kid in Ohio, I've been on this
lifelong journey of explor- exploration
and adventure, and I happen to be at
a certain place on my journey, and
everybody's gonna be at a different place
on theirs, and it's all been enjoyable.
And I think I haven't always felt
it was enjoyable all the time.
Mm.
But I tell people, it's like,
"But enjoy where you are."
Yes.
You know?
Enjoy where you are.
Don't… I, I, I get it all the time
because I live in Montana, and people
are like, "Man," like, "I wanna go
public land bow hunting for elk in
the middle of nowhere the mountains."
Mm.
You know, the backcountry.
And I'm like, "Dude, that is an
exceptionally great goal," but you
are talking, in my opinion, at least
a master's level type of hunting.
With everything that you've got to
know and learn and do to even give
your chan- your, your, your s- self
a chance of success, let alone when
you kill, how do you get it out?
And I'm like, "I just
wouldn't start there." Mm-hmm.
I'm not trying to not encourage people,
but I just wouldn't start there.
I'd say I aspire to do
that at some point in time.
Rifle, bow, doesn't matter, but,
but enjoy where you are now.
And if where you are now is I can only
go do a day hunt for mule deer, fine.
Or I'm gonna go out west for the
first time and chase black bear
in the spring, that's awesome.
Or hey, I just drew my first tag
and it's an antelope tag, and I'm
gonna know I'm gonna have a stalk
every day, and if I kill, I now need
mules to get it out of the mountains.
It's like, start there.
Mm-hmm.
Go backpacking.
Go hike to a high lake and, and, uh,
you know, and, and run a trout line
or learn how to fish or live from
a, a survival shelter f- overnight.
Yeah.
Learn to start fires in the snow.
It's like this wonderful adventure
that you can have year-round that
you don't need a tag, you don't need
to draw something, you don't need
a deadline hanging over your head.
Um, so, you know, when people
ask me, I just encourage them.
I'm like, "Start somewhere and go
do something and just, just get
momentum." And y- if you don't have
all the right gear, that's fine.
You know?
You don't have to buy John's
eight-piece clothing system.
Just get something and go, but
understand, just like we talked
about, if you don't have all the right
gear, if you don't have all the right
experience, also don't charter the
Beaver to go drop you off in the middle
of nowhere for a 14-day caribou hunt.
Right.
You know?
Just be a little realistic about it
I love it.
Well, John, uh, there is a lot more
that I had down here, but I'm also,
uh, conscious of kind of the time.
Like we didn't- Well,
I apologize for my
long-winded answers, but-
Oh, I love it.
I, you know, we didn't even get into the
invisible cloak stuff that I had here.
Ah.
You know- Don't… Shh.
No, that we weren't supposed to talk
about that.
But I, uh, I r- I thoroughly
enjoyed this conversation.
I
did too.
And I'm looking forward to, uh, I know
we were talking about ahead of time,
I'm looking forward to when you're
back up here in BC and we get together.
But I think I might have to
come down to your neck of the
woods as well and, uh- Well,
you're more than welcome.
The Bozeman area, and maybe you'll
get to, you know, talk to Mark and
meet him, and maybe do that podcast.
Well, thank you so much for
being on the Silvercore Podcast.
Thanks for the invite, Travis.