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A lot of us have dabbled with dating apps, but what really makes a successful match? In this episode Ali sits down with Shahzad Younas, founder and CEO of Muzmatch the revolutionary dating app that's transforming the way Muslims find love and marriage with over 4 million members and 100,000+ successful marriages thanks to the app. Shahzad shares how he quit his job and built the leading Muzmatch app from scratch, how to make marketing work, the problem with dating app etiquette for Muslim's and much much more. You'll leave the episode with an understanding of how to identify and execute business ideas, the importance of forcing yourself to be uncomfortable and even a few tips on finding love and the art of dating.
Dr Ali Abdaal is the worldβs most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isnβt discipline, itβs joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Aliβs cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Aliβs a firm believer that happiness isnβt the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
Ali Abdaal 0:00
Hello and welcome to deep dive the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfilment, at work and in life. My name is Ali and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. My guest this week is Shahzad Yunus, founder and CEO of mismatch. If you haven't already heard of mismatch from the entertaining underground campaigns. It's the revolutionary dating app that's transforming the way Muslims find love and marriage.
Shahzad Younas 0:30
I've thought about this, as a man. And I thought why are Muslim men quite useless at all of this? I'm speaking very generally to cover all the politically correct community out there, but I'm very politically incorrect at times
Ali Abdaal 0:43
On our conversation, Shahzad shares with me how he quit his job and built the mismatch app from the ground up what it takes to find the perfect match. And the problem with dating app etiquette for Muslims. Alright, welcome to the show.
Shahzad Younas 0:54
Why, Thank you.
Ali Abdaal 0:55
Thank you for being here.
Shahzad Younas 0:55
Thank you for having me.
Ali Abdaal 0:56
I have a question. Why are you banned from hinge? How does that work?
Shahzad Younas 1:00
You know, I think it's because I was overtly doing research on I do research on all these platforms, see what they're all up to? Etc, etc.
Ali Abdaal 1:07
And you've got accounts on multiple dating apps?
Shahzad Younas 1:09
On many, yeah, most of them just don't have, they just have gibberish on the account. Actually, all of them do. I think this one did. I actually had memes I had four memes as my as my pictures on it. But I think I, I can't remeber if Hinge has a selfie feature or not, I can't remember. Anyway, somebody else who blocked me I emailed them saying I was just testing it out. So clearly had memes on the account. And they just said, no, thanks.
Shahzad Younas 1:33
So do you think they blocked in for the memes? Or do you think they blocked you becuase they googled your name?
Shahzad Younas 1:36
Probably. I would go with the second one. I think they kind of knew who I was with. Oh, no, thank you. Bye.
Ali Abdaal 1:42
So how many how many dating apps are there?
Shahzad Younas 1:44
Oh, there's too many. There's too many. You know, I'd say there's probably eight big ones. I mean, you got you got the mainstream ones and the wearing them in the more niche market. But I just think if you're in this space, you need to know what everyone's up to. Because each app will tackle something in a different way. And it's always interesting, you know, everyone's kind of learning from each other, and just scoping the space out.
Ali Abdaal 2:06
So what would prompt you to decide, you know, I want to make, I want to build a company. Let me build a an app that caters to the Muslim marriage market.
Shahzad Younas 2:16
I'll tell you, you know, and it's one of those things when you look back, it's just many kind of accidents. So, you know, to get back when people don't realise as much as 10 years old, we actually celebrated our 10 year anniversary a couple weeks ago, they actually started off just as a random side project. So I was, you know, for those who don't know, whatever, I was an investment banker, one of those, for about nine years, and I think was 2011. Just me and my team, were just, you know, my team will just give me grief about being single, and obviously a Muslim guy, I'm a good Muslim boy. Which they found hilarious. And I remember they were just cracking jokes. And you know, there were like, different platforms for different religions. And Muzmatch was the Muslim one. And I remember just thinking that name is really good. So I bought the domain. And then...
Ali Abdaal 2:59
Wait so you randomly decided to come up with the name Muzmatch for the bants.
Shahzad Younas 3:02
Exactly. So people think it's a deep story, but it literally was bands to start off with, and, and then I remember thinking, you know, all my friends were all professional Muslims in London, and they were all like, it's really hard to find someone blah, blah, blah. I just remember, you know, I've always loved technology, and IT and all that kind of stuff. And I remember thinking, what's out there was really terrible, you know, like, the websites were pretty crap. A lot of the Muslim ones were, we were still asking things like, what's your body shape, and how much you earn, you know, those, that's where we were. And I thought, this is terrible. I can do better than this. So literally side project, I just set up what was Muzmatch website just had it ticking along, I think it had a couple of 1000 people who used it, we had a few weddings, but nothing crazy. And then it got to like 2013 2014. So after the financial crisis, and just as the app store was really kind of taking off, and I remember thinking, hold on, this should be an app, there shouldn't be a website, because and then I remember checking Google Analytics and seeing, you know, 8% of our traffic was coming from mobile. And it just makes sense. If I'm messaging someone, that's quite personal thing, I'm not going to go into my laptop login. And then Hey, how you doing, you know, and the turn the laptop off, it's got to be on my phone. So for me, it's just a no brainer. And it's one of those things once it was in my head, I can go out and I thought this has to be an app. And I was convinced that somebody else is about to do it. And it was really eating away at me. Then it got to about 2014 and I thought, screw this, I need to do it. So I quit my job. Everyone thought I was mad. My parents thought what the hell, this guy is having a quarter life crisis here. I think I was. But I quit my job. And I sat there at home, I thought, 'How do I build apps?' And in six months, I don't know how I did it. I built as much which was, you know, in native Android native iOS in six months and the back end and everything. I was literally just me my bedroom coding, right? And it's the only app I've ever built. And thank God it was successful. It was quite a gamble. But yeah, and then it kind of, it's one of the things once you offend me, I quit my job. So there was no backup plan or search, you know, and I, I saved up to quit, you know, I always knew that I didn't want a whole career in banking, I didn't really interest me. For me, I just I always knew I had to have my own business. And it's kind of like I said, it was it. If I look back, it was many accidents. You know, it was it was just always having bands about what, how on earth jazz is ever going to get married to, you know, the the name Muzmatch, to me just setting up the website, because I thought what was out there was terrible. Obviously, you know, apps really taken off and me just thinking Hold on, this should just be an app, and to me quit my job, then just go for it.
Ali Abdaal 5:36
So it sounds like the the idea came from trying to solve a problem and recognising the problem of getting married as a Muslim is quite hard. In you in particular, were having that problem. So you were scratching your own itch?
Shahzad Younas 5:50
You know what it was, I understood the problem. So, you know, because if I look at it now and I think who could do it, you know, not in an arrogant way. But you know, maybe you have to believe it, who can do a better job than us? And I'm like, I don't think anyone can, because I understand the problem. I understand the market, understand tech, understand business. And hopefully, I've done a half devent job of getting the team together. And all of those things, I think, you know, undoubtedly, are your edge. It's what you bring to the table that somebody else couldn't do or didn't do beforehand. So that's the way I kind of look at it and think about it which hopefully gets us to where we've got to.
Ali Abdaal 6:21
Interesting. So if I can take you back to that time, because, like a lot of people who who kind of listening or watching this might be thinking, okay, well, there's sort of two places where I find that beginners stumble. Number one is, I don't know what idea to go for. And number two is, once I have an idea, I don't know how to execute on the idea. Yeah, it sounds like you had the idea of solving a problem that you had personally. Do you have any other thoughts on this whole thing of like, how do you come up with an idea?
Shahzad Younas 6:45
You know, that's a hard one, I think, you know, the big problem we have now is we're so busy. I was talking about this on a on a podcast yesterday, you know, now more than ever, our free time is like under assault by every ounce of free time that we have. We've got so many reasons to waste it. Netflix, watching stuff, watching TV, there's so much media and stuff to consume, that our free time is busy doing stuff. And we don't intentionally just take the time to think about stuff and think about ideas, right? Like with a piece of paper in your room, or whatever outside. actually thinking about an idea, like consciously, obviously, some sometimes ideas come randomly, right? You're, you're going for a walk or you're in the shower, whatever, and sometimes these are the best ideas, but we very rarely actually just sit down and concentrate and think of you know what I'm gonna find, I'm gonna think about five problems that I have. And people have asked me this before and I always say, rather than just thinking generically focus on your own life, because that's the stuff that you will relate to and understand, hopefully, better than anyone else. So think about problems that you personally face, whether it's through work, whether it's a personal situation, whatever. Whether you have the answer or not just identify a problem. And then once you've let's say, you've found five problems. I'm gonna make this up imagine you really like non pasteurised milk. really random idea, super random, but imagine you like pasteurised milk. Or hate all the milk thats there. But I'm not one of these old person. I'm not gonna use old milk stuff. But I really like milk. And I don't like what's out there. Right? That's the problem. And maybe you're maybe you have some weird interest in milk, this is a random one but whatever. It's a problem, then the next thing I would be looking at is, what's the alternative to what's out there? What kind of, let's say we maintain has to be dairy? What dairy alternative - I'm offending all the vegan people who are watching this - but let's say also the dairy alternatives and then, you know, obviously, there'll be some non pasteurised version. All right, who supplies non pasteurised milk right now? Is there any mechanism for getting that right now? Probably not. And maybe in London? Maybe not? Do I think there's no people who want it and actually I remember watching some stuff about this a lot of people who are convinced of the natural effects of what's in non pasteurised milk right straight from the udder, almost right. And if it is for the kids and stuff, because they say there's always good stuff that comes out of it. And also, whatever health stuff anyway, right. But just going down that whole road of exploring all of that, and maybe you've come across something where you find out actually there's a lot of people who would be interested in this and the big problem is there's no real good supply and no one's really nailed strong branding around non pasteurised milk and maybe you're branding is 'Straight from the udder' 'Udderly ridiculous' right? So something like that. I just feel like you know, this is a terrible example. But it's just more that journey of something that I'm really interested in something that maybe I'm passionate about and something that you think that no one is solving quite right. In the way that you would solve it right now. Okay, and then how you explore all that.
Ali Abdaal 9:41
And I guess crucially, that's not to say no one is doing it at all. Yeah, no, everyone's doing everything.
Shahzad Younas 9:45
Yeah. People always think or someone's doing it. What's the point? Yeah, but you know, I think most businesses, undoubtedly are iterations on others. The truly, you know, landmark companies that take over the world. Are the ones that completely break out and invent something completely new that didn't exist. But within reason if you actually dissect it, it's an iteration on it really is. It's just a massive iteration, right? rather than something incremental. It's this massive gap. And then oh my god, where did this come from? There's nothing wrong with that. What you're trying to find or trying to identify is what your contribution is that you think will make this thing successful. You know.
Ali Abdaal 10:26
So let's say someone's got an idea. They think, okay, I've got this problem. I love freakin love. pasteurised, unpasteurized. Yeah. And there's no easy way of getting it. At that point, it's like, okay, so this is a problem. And it sounds like for you the idea for Muzmatch, you then were able to execute on it by 'alright, then I'll just build a website as a side project'. But you're an investment banker. It's an unusual skill set for an investment banker to be able to just build a website like how did that happen?
Shahzad Younas 10:54
Yeah, good question. And people have asked me this as well. So there was kind of a few principles that I had in my mind at the time number one was, and it's weird, because when I was building it, I never built it with the intent that this will be a big company that will have a massive team, you're never thinking like that, yeah, you have this weird, you have this weird feeling in your head that obviously whatever you're working on, you want to be successful. But you actually don't know what that means. I didn't know what it means I had no feeling of what success meant. And if I look back, success after one year is, to me looks very different to success. After five years, six years, whatever we've been doing it so I would say for me, I always knew that if I was ultimately going to want a tech company, I had to be a techie, I had to be an engineering guy, I had to be able to do all this stuff. Because I felt it would make me a bad CEO.
Ali Abdaal 11:38
You're an investment banker, like where did the idea of being a tech guy come from?
Shahzad Younas 11:40
So I've always loved tech, I mean, my degree way back when was computer sciencewhich was I guess, the seed. So I was never scared of coding. But that said, for nine years, I didn't really code. I had a few side projects, I actually had a really interesting project me and a friend we set up is called uni city. And this was early, this is very early Facebook. And not everyone's talking about Facebook. But effectively what it was, was an academic social network. And we actually built it. And it was kind of interesting as an exercise because we built it, but then we just didn't stick with it. And it kind of just fell apart. You know, the execution in terms of the marketing and getting in people's hands and actually testing it and all that we just never did. And it just died as a project. But whereas, for me I always love tech. I always love coding, but I never really did it for nine years. But then when I started this, I thought had to I had this thing in my head of what it was going to be. And I actually designed it's funny, I designed the first version of Muzmatch in Microsoft Word. So the ability to create squares and stuff is all in Word. It was horrible. But that's, you know, I wasn't a designer search by designing word. And then. And then I just learned how to build apps, literally. The first app was the iOS one. And I learned by doing like how to build an app. Yeah, I actually started with the hardest thing first, I remember. So I started with how do I build a basic chat? How do I build an app where two people can chat real time and it was going down bunch of libraries and software, you know, we use basically the heart of what WhatsApp is built on. So some software called ejabberd, which is an XMPP, which is a protocol that WhatsApp use. So that was basically what I use, because there are tutorials way back when of how you can kind of do all this. And that was painful doing it. But then I built that and then build everything else around that. So went to the heart of what that was, which was chatting and everything else. And like I said, I learned by doing, I didn't really so I remember doing one basic tutorial of Xcode, which is the software on iOS to build apps. I did that one tutorial of how Xcode works and how you do all how to understand the whole view controller model and all that stuff. And once I learned it I just got stuck on. And that was the way I did it. And it was weird it was it took me about four months to build the iOS app, the Apple App, which was horrible, because for those who know it was in, Objective C, which is a disgusting language, it really is, now it's Swift, which is way more friendly, but back then swift was new. It was Objective C, hated it, nearly gave up because I was getting really stuck on quite a few things doing push notifications on iOS, oh, my God, you'll lose, you'll lose a limb doing it. But it's horrible. Anyway, so did that. And it took me about four months to do the iOS app, and about one month to do the Android one. So I guess the benefit was the back end was done, the endpoints were done. Android weirdly just seemed to make a lot more sense in terms of, I found Android, as difficult as it is because you've got all the devices, I think they've solved it in a really good way for how Android works. Not to get too technical. But anyway, so that took a month. And then yeah, I guess from start to end. It was October, I sat down on our computer and said, Why? How on earth do I build apps? And it was the end of March or something like that when we released the iOS app.
Shahzad Younas 13:23
And do you think your computer science background, particularly helped in the making up the app? Or do you think any old person doing a medicine degree could just sit down and learn?
Shahzad Younas 15:04
So my, my thinking is, I mean, I'm sure it would have helped because maybe I wasn't scared of code. No doubt I understood the basic mechanics of coding, object oriented languages, all that kind of stuff. However, I'm a big, and I've always had this, we're at an age now where knowledge is free, and it's everywhere, right? Like you can learn anything on YouTube, or on the Internet, evertyhing is free, which is amazing, like genuinely is, I genuinely think anyone can do anything. Obviously, different people are better at some stuff naturally. But I do think if you put your mind to it, and you put the effort in, you can learn it just as good as the next guy, you know. And there's so many that coding academies. We actually hired a guy who was a plasterer. He was a junior guy when he joined us he did a course I think, in how to build Android apps. And he just wanted to learn how to do apps, because obviously better income and better lifestyle for him and his family, and he started learning it. And you know, he grew really well, you know, it was great just seeing someone from a completely different background, end up on this road. So I do think anyone can do it. I think the decision you need to make as an individual is an honest decision of Where is my time best spent, you know, is my time genuinely best spent coding this thing? Or am I stronger with another guy who can call a girl who can code this stuff. If I if I look back, I do see a benefit of two really strong different minds early on, I do think I do think you can be stronger, you can, I think you can make a lot more progress in a short space of time, which is a good thing. I think for me, I had this very clear idea of what most much should be, I was very determined to be the first app out there. And that was my kind of one plus, I had no money coming in. There's always a great driver. So I literally we just focused on, I want to build this. And I think I can do it. And I just did it. The kind of good thing about if I look at the flip side as well. Now, you know, in those early days, obviously I built the app designed it, I did the back end, I did the website, I did the customer support, I was approving profiles, to the point where the customer support improved proposal at four hours of my day, every day. And I was like, This is killing me, I need to hire someone to do this. So I thought, well, it'd be related in hiring a search. But the beauty is now everyone I talked to in the company, be it in marketing, be it in the community management team be it on the engineering, I genuinely can help everyone out. And I have a good insight. I'm not I'm not at that point where I have no idea what they're talking about. And I'm just like, yeah, wherever you go and do that, because I don't know you're talking about not at all, like, everywhere, I'm able to contribute. And hopefully, I hope guide the company in the right direction.
Ali Abdaal 17:41
We're gonna take a very quick break to introduce our sponsor for this episode. And that is brilliant. I've been using brilliant for the last two plus years. They're a fantastic platform for learning maths, science and computer science with engaging and interactive online courses. And the great thing about brilliant is that they really teach stuff from a very first principles based approach. It's almost like the way that we were taught in places like Oxford and Cambridge where you learn a concept, and then you apply the concept to an interesting problem. Rather than just being spoon fed stuff like we initially learned in school, my favourite courses and brilliant other computer science ones. As some of you guys might know, I was torn between applying to medicine and computer science. I went to medicine in the end, but I always had an affinity to computer science and taking the courses on brilliant, like the Introduction to Algorithms and the introduction to Python really helped me get more of a grasp of computer science than I've ever had before. It's also great for learning how to code which is an incredibly useful skill to have, especially if you want to start a business. And I attribute like 98% of my business success, to the fact that I learned how to code when I was in secondary school. So if you want to check out the courses on math, science and computer science, then head over to brilliant.org forward slash deep dive, and the first 200 people to sign up with that link will get 20% off of the annual premium subscriptions of Thank you brilliant for sponsoring this episode.
Ali Abdaal 18:49
So I mean, around this whole, anyone can learn to code. It often seems just like too good to be true, right? Like, it sounds like what a lot of people say and I would broadly agree with is that basically anyone could just go on the internet, learn how to code and within a few months to a year, become like a proficient enough software engineer to get a ridiculously high paying job in a tech company. Do you think that's unreasonable?
Shahzad Younas 19:11
I'm genuinely convinced. I'm convinced because if you look at I mean, look, even in tech, there's so many new languages, new frameworks coming out. Everyone's having to learn stuff, right? Obviously, some people are better than others, no doubt. But I think for the most part, most tech companies, you anyone can learn the skills to do it. I'm convinced. And it's one of those worlds I think, where with experience with practice and with just forcing yourself to do it every day to push yourself in terms of coding or building something or building something more adventurous. You can get to that kind of stage. I'm convinced. And I think the problem is is people, so if I speak to if I recall the conversation I've had with people who are like, 'Oh, I'm not a coder, I can't code' and I'll be like have you tried 'No' well how do you know you don't can't code until you try and literally struggle and that genuinely I'm think, you know, this is impossible, my brain is literally not wired this way until you've gone through that process. I just think it's fluff, you know, you don't know you're talking about. And I think you have to with anything, you have to force yourself to be uncomfortable. I remember I was doing the iOS app. And this was three months in. And I remember there was, one was pushing applications that nearly killed me. And another one was a memory leak, it would be, you would swipe about five times and the app would crash. And I didn't know why. And I spent two weeks to try to solve this and two weeks on one single problem that's preventing you making any progress is a killer. And I was very clear, I remember very close, I was very close to just given up saying, This is too hard. Like I'm not the guy for this. Objective C are the languages, if anyone is a horrible language, whereas now what's great is languages have modernised, you know, Swift, Java, Java is now in Android, these languages are way more programmer friendly. So that even helps you on that perspective. So yeah, I think until you've done it and force yourself to be so uncomfortable. Don't assume you can't do it.
Ali Abdaal 21:01
How did you keep it fun for yourself in those sort of five months while you you've quit the job as an available investment banker, you've lost your huge salary. You're like, right, I'm gonna grind on this app.
Shahzad Younas 21:10
I'm not grinding on no one haha. Good question, how you know what it's part of it genuinely is you've committed. So when you quit your job, you tell everyone I'm gonna fill this up, and everything you do. If you quit four months in, I feel like you will be the idiot. I didn't want to quit. I'm not a quitter. Number one, I think number two, I there was enough in me to think there was something here that could could be big up, I didn't know what big meant. But I thought there was something here that I suppose the second thing The third thing is I thought that I would be of anyone to do this, I felt that I would be best suited to solve this. Like, if I couldn't solve it, I would I didn't know who would fit. I just thought timing was really good. And by timing, I meant the app stores being more popular and apps just be more popular apps in the dating sphere and for the Muslim market. You know, there wasn't anyone could point to you know, I genuinely looking at who's our competition for this, I can point to anyone, which is a great place to be. I remember thinking that I remember thinking for the Muslim world, you know, be it Muslims in the West and then Muslims in the Muslim world for our product, all you know, I kind of felt I thought as a trader, which is what I was in my banking career, which is when you're picking a stock, you sometimes you when you're picking a stock, you're picking a company where naturally things are going that way for the company. Yeah, so so it's to give as much as the example in this actually. So I remember thinking about it thinking, alright, you know, the apps are obviously no doubt becoming more popular. So I felt that trend was only going to continue, let's say for the Muslim market, I felt Alright, for the Muslim market, Muslims are going to be taboo around finding someone online is only going to lessen over time, no doubt, because it can't get worse than what it was. Number three, in the Muslim market, their ability to order their smartphone devices, and the quality of smartphones is only gonna improve the internet connectivity, and a lot of these Muslim countries only going to improve, their ability to pay is only gonna improve and I thought all these things just kind of make sense to ride this wave. And so for me, it felt like this was the right place to persevere. With that said, I do remember like, you know, launching the app. Six months after launching the app, I was checking Google Analytics every day, you know, like checking how many people were on the app at one time and it was like 3 people. And then it gets eventually to 100 for ages it wasn't that it was a couple of 100 and you're thinking man, I quit my job for this like this minor and you I remember there was a point where I was like, maybe maybe I kind of fluff this up. You know, maybe there wasn't, this isn't as big a deal as I thought it would be. But then I do remember this random moment where somebody literally emailed in saying thank you most much fun, my partner got married. I was like, wow, okay, this is works like for real because there was a phase where that was out it wasn't that busy. I wasn't really hearing about it from anyone in terms of community of what was going on. Or you know, there was zero hype, if you will. And it was kind of a moment where I thought okay, like there is something tangible in how this can change people's lives. It definitely gave me an impetus to just carry on Okay, it wasn't like a Yeah, this is it let's carry on you know, it's gonna be huge now not at all it was alright let's persevere with this. And then progressively actually, remember, it just did start growing kind of a healthy clip. And I think you know, that kind of combined with that, despite it being really difficult and it was still you know, for the first one half years, it was just me doing it. And I think we've got about 50,000 members I by the end of that period, but I was enjoying it on a personal level. Like I was enjoying the process of just being in control of my day. Yeah, I was working. I was working stupid hours. 18 hour days, I had no life zero social life. I don't think I'm sleeping either but I was enjoying it. I was in it.
Ali Abdaal 24:47
What do you think about it that you were well what was it about it that you were enjoying?
Shahzad Younas 24:52
The control. I remember cuz I still, I still remember being told this in my Morgan Stanley days where, so I was a I was a VP vice president and I was going for executive executive, which is the next level. So big boy territory. And I remember so I think at that time and this was just before the financial crisis, I think we're just Africa remember. And it was kind of a, there was a, you know, two years was like the minimum you could get to director, but generally it was three and obviously maybe me wanted after two years I was like, gunning for that. And I didn't get after two years and I was fuming I was like, why like I felt you know, at the desk, we were performing and I was doing really well etc. And I remember there, you know, being told, you know, like the your problem basically shows is, you're not professional enough sometimes to turn up and you don't respond well to authority. That line stuck with me because I think it's still true, I don't and I think for my own problem is and me I'm sure there's a some dose of arrogance in them and me being stubborn to some degree. But unless I totally, utterly respect and feel that the person who is leading me is all over this and is super smart. And that's the person I look up to. Unless I feel that 100% I'm always like, what am I doing? Like you know, maybe in some ways I can do better than this. Why am I not that at that level? You know and it's an patience is just a natural impatience, you know? Yeah. And part of it was I think partly For me it was that lack of control I hated that I you know, at banks there's a lot of process there's a lot of that's the way things are done. These are the hoops you have to jump through and I hate all that. I'm just like, why, you know, why am I not just touched on this, which is more black and white, you know, I deliver this you give me that. And it never was quiet like, and I hate that kind of stuff. Whereas when you have your own business, if it doesn't fail, if it doesn't succeed, that's on you. You know like you, you look back at yourself saying the corner to I didn't really work hard enough. If you're honest with yourself, sometimes you do. You work down hard and just doesn't work. But at least then you can honestly say, you know what, I should genuinely 100% give you my all it didn't work. And that's Soviet, you can accept that. I think that was my problem that I Oh, there was one thing I really liked was I was in total control. And if this succeeded, fantastic, if it failed, it's on me, which is a nice driver.
Ali Abdaal 27:03
So it's now when I was sort of 10 years into them. How are things going at the moment? Like what how big is the app?
Shahzad Younas 27:09
Like, Oh, my God. So the boring stats are where we got four and a half million members now globally, over 100,000 successes people around the world. Yeah, it is crazy. It blows our minds. You know, we have 300 people a day more than who leave the app. Yeah. And don't come back and tell us thank you Muzmatch, I met my partner don't need you anymore, which is amazing. And it blows our minds, we've had weddings everywhere. I think we've got members in 190 countries. I think North Korea is one country, we don't have memebers in. I remember it's an odd, it's an odd point on the map. As a team, we are approaching 60 people now. I think we've hired like 25 people in the last year alone, over lockdown, and over the whole work from home, COVID pandemic, etc. for us. Thankfully, we've been hitting records. So last week we last Saturday and last Sunday were to record dates for us on nearly every metric. Part of that was after Ramadan, hold the Muslims wake up and just get back on the app. So we've been crazy busy after Ramadan for sure. So the part of that and just burrows You know, we've what we're doing is clearly working, which is great. There's a lot more to do. And I think I'm forever impatient and frustrated.
Ali Abdaal 27:10
What do you mean by a lot more to do? It's a dating app like surely just swipe and message...
Shahzad Younas 28:28
No no it's not, I have one bit in me is always dying to do stuff that's never been done before to try stuff out to build stuff that hasn't been done before. And done it at a quantity that hasn't been done before, particularly for the Muslim market, or main products I saw offered to the Muslim market weren't that. Yeah, like, and I never wanted that. And for me, I was always like this is this will never be acceptable for us, right? So far as the bar has to be high, you know, and I always tell our team, our customers all use Instagram, Snapchat, they all use all these other big apps. And that's where the bar is. And if we're not there, they'll think we're crap. Yeah, so for us, that's where the bar I don't mean, I don't think we're quite there. But that's where we strive towards, you know, we've effectively rebuilt and this is one thing I'm never scared about rebuilding the app. You know, we've we've rebuilt it three times now. We're approaching our fourth and I would say this call it fourth rebuild is probably the only one that's been more of a genuine iteration, whereas the other three were way more rip the plaster off. You know, so. Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, you know, to give an example, August, so we launched the app, August, April 2015. August 2016, which was was much 2.0, we actually started again, so it was a brand new app. And everyone had to we had to everyone started again from scratch. Everyone had to create a new profile. Well, it was a bit of a disaster because everyone lost all their previous matches because of all the changes that I had. Because I spent our first year just learning from everyone learning about everything they hated everything that they felt that we lacked, all the features that I thought were missing. And I remember I put it all in a big Google Sheets document, it was about 8000 bits of feedback. And I went through it and I categorised all and I thought right, which ones can we do? Which ones will we never do, which ones do I think are very important sat there and designed all of what what I thought would be 2.0 or not in Word this time, it was in a final copy of balsamiq it was some kind of design software, and I just designed it and then built it. And the changes were so drastic, I thought, this is easier just to start again, rather than trying to somehow get everyone across. So we did. And then the third one was more of a you recall the UI 3.0. But this is more of a UI revamp. And then like I said, Now we're working on the fourth one, which for me, I think is I think we're more finding our place of what is Muzmatch, you know, what is our brand? How should we frame ourselves? And where do we want to be longer term?
Ali Abdaal 30:51
How did you decide that you know what, we're just gonna delete everyone's data. Surely, that must have been huge, if someone was like you know what, let's redo YouTube from the ground up with everyone's channels.
Shahzad Younas 31:02
You know what it was interesting, because we had to send a message out, saying, cuz people were kicking off going, Oh, my God, my match disappeared. What are you guys doing? I'd quit my profile again. And I was committed at the time, we just take the pain. Yeah, like I felt taking the pain would let us move quicker than trying to find some middle ground of like an important profile. Yeah. Because then you have to import the profile and somehow figure out how they could edit the old data and the new data and all that I thought, screw that. I want to move quick. And I genuinely felt that this new version is so much better that when they see it, they will be less offended by it. You know, imagine you did all that. And like, it was the same as before. What the hell are you guys doing? Like, did you just pose the database, basically. Whereas here, it was like you do all that and you're like, Whoa, okay, this is nice. And I felt that change would justify the pain that we had to inflict. And this was like, 150,000 members By that time, I think so if I remember the numbers, right? So it was decent number, but but if I look at the chart, thank God, we did it because we overcame that pain. And then, you know, genuinely the app was more sticky. People liked it. And I think we're onboarding people better. And I think people just like the app a lot.
Ali Abdaal 32:07
Can you share revenue numbers these days?
Shahzad Younas 32:10
No, I would love to, I would say we do well, I'd say a few things on it. We do well, we've doubled revenue in the last year. I would say we as a platform were out there I think last year, if I remember we were we were in a top two in the UK. Just give an example. In the UK, we were one of the top 10 I think we're number seven I can remember the exact ranking, the top seven, top seven, top seven in the top 10 app and the rankings by top grossing dating apps in the UK and that's across all dating apps like Tinder Bumble hinge. So we're in the Big Boy league now perspective I still think we're small Don't get me wrong, but we've grown nicely I think for us everything we make goes straight back into the product and the team and marketing and all of that you know we're not remotely cleaning anything out everything goes straight back in you know we're like, despite our growth I still feel like it's weird I have this feeling like any day we could die It's so strange I genuinely feel it.
Ali Abdaal 33:11
Same with like my YouTube channel and the more it grows, the more I'm like okay, this is a house of cards.
Shahzad Younas 33:16
Exactly. And I have this in my head and it you get sleepless nights you know, either way like it was weird I was like, obviously recording this thing I was a bit late to this thing because I was I had some stuff on my mind I had to talk to the team about about like, how we're going to work post COVID in the office and all that kind of weirdly last night I got prayers to do and then I can't go back to sleep one and a half hours in bed with all these thoughts in my mind of how we can solve this office problem and what's the best way to and isn't weird I just couldn't sleep and I thought what the hell this is random but then compound that with thoughts of I just hate what we're doing in this particular area or I'm not happy about this or What on earth are we doing you know like i've you know sometimes I'm weird thoughts like that. I guess I it probably keeps me employed must annoy my team I'm sure it does. Yeah, it just keeps us slightly on edge.
Ali Abdaal 34:03
I feel like I read something about this I think and what Paul Graham's essays or what somewhere like that where it's like you know, the problems never go away they just change in there kind of sexiness lilke when you're starting out you're like, why is the memory thing not working for five swipes and now you're like, how do I get 50 people into an office literally just like a different scale of problems.
Shahzad Younas 34:24
How do you do a good one to one yeah and how the I've learned so I don't think I don't think I'm remotely that how to manage a team how to manage different teams you know one of my early on I frustrate you know we had a very small marketing team and I i'm sure i frustrated them so much because I just couldn't figure out how to make marketing work I'm you know,
Ali Abdaal 34:46
does that mean how to back off again
Shahzad Younas 34:48
I think for me it was more understanding like I'm you know, I'm a products CEO whatever title whatever I love for the I Love You know, I'm very into you know, even now we're designing the new you know, most much right and I'm sorry So into every bit of the screen I'm not like you guys design it show me and let's just run with it No not at all. I mean don't get me wrong they design it and they show me stuff but I'm very in the weeds with you know if I look right now I spend more hours of my day consciously because I want to with the UX team and with mobile team just going through every screen of the app that we're trying to redo and we build and just our whole thought process and for me this obviously is part of where we're headed as a business but anyway, because of a) I enjoy it and I get it and it makes sense. Marketing is a whole different beast marketing is not engineering marketing you can't just have a spec and deliver it and that's it the whole creative angle the whole you know, what is the deliverable and and and to be creative in a good way should you shouldn't you have a tight deadline you know to give you a really small example on this we're filming an ad right now and you know, we don't they don't we'll set themself a deadline of or deadline because we want to deliver something but oh, we're going to film this next week, which I get because you know, I'm probably coming does come from me and I want us to deliver on stuff etc etc. But then I'm like, I feel like the idea of what we're going to film we haven't nailed yet, you know, to the standard or to the level that we want and that's where we need to get to and it gets weird it messes with my mind so I'm sure it messes with us and we haven't figured it out no doubt but for me it was the appreciation of understanding that alright, the way you manage marketing people is quite different or creatives is different should be different. The way I was managing it wasn't bringing out the best of them was annoying them I'm sure was driving them I did drive them and even then we we effectively we built the marketing team totally you know like I think they were frustrated with me but fair enough I we built it and then even as a team, we figured out how should we work how does the creative team work differently for the van people differently from other people?
Ali Abdaal 36:47
So you had a famous like ad campaign on the London Underground what was the story behind that?
Shahzad Younas 36:52
Yeah so the ad was a whole bunch we actually did four or five but it was all mostly Muslim Puns. So 'Hala, is it me you're looking for?' you know, Lionel Richie OG. 'Hala from the other side' it's Adele's song. 'You had me at Hala', Jerry Maguire. Those those one more hello and we had one which was we timed for just after the we formally I think when we're leaving Brexit and the Brexit vote happened etc was 'It's time to leave the single market' we did that one, we have one more there's one that says that that's missing you know like there was one more commonly was now Oh yeah, 'Hala meat' and it was like this one. Allow me which was a steak with a Cupid steak. Oh yeah, I don't know that one words. Great. ads went super viral. We had like celebrities comedians putting in on their socials really good I'm gonna take the credit for those the lines were all mine I always felt that if we're going to do especially a tube campaign it's gotta be really good yeah, it can't be average because what's the point right it's either really good that you get noticed or forget it there's no point doing it. And it was weird because it was a bit of a pun because you know as a campaign you know, did we win it and suddenly get tonnes of downloads? No didn't make a single difference right? But what it did do genuinely is that intangible brand thing.
Ali Abdaal 38:19
It got it got the name out there like people heard of Muzmatch who hadn't heard of Muzmatch before.
Shahzad Younas 38:22
Exactly we were we were hiring you know we were interviewing people engineers etc. I remember, you know most of our team aren't Muslim right you know, we've got a lot of non Muslims in the team particularly engineering side and for them to be remotely interested in working for an app like cause I'm like it must take something surely right. You know to go and tell your parents or your other half yeah I work at this muslim dating app they'd be like what the hell but they do right and I remember asking him like have you heard him as much before and so many of them said 'Oh yeah, I remember the tube campaign' and I'm like okay, and it was hearing that from so many people where I thought okay, this thing worked. It did cement the brand it made it legit Yeah. Which is good but I think we only got away with that because the strength of the campaign itself The idea was good it was funny it was viral.
Ali Abdaal 39:09
How much does it cost to run a campaign on the underground?
Shahzad Younas 39:12
At the time, this was when we when I think we want it we want one a couple of years but at the time was 202-5 grand but it depends what you go for that was from memory every other courage on the on the underground.
Ali Abdaal 39:25
For how long? Like a week?
Shahzad Younas 39:26
No two weeks, every other carriage.
Ali Abdaal 39:30
So to get a single add on every other coverage of the underground Yeah, for two weeks around about 25k.
Shahzad Younas 39:35
That was then I don't know where it is now.
Ali Abdaal 39:36
The biggest complaint I hear whenever I mentioned as much to people is that guys on there already creepy. Yeah. To what extent is like a problem with the guys vs a problem with the dating industry vs a problem with the app itself like what's the deal?
Shahzad Younas 39:48
I think I'm still trying to figure out where does the problem lie? Is it us? Is it the community is it guys so I think my conclusion is guys I think from everything I've seen, and if you look at, you know, forget Muzmatch if you just look at the general dating apps, we've seen the lines, their biggest problem is the behaviour of men mostly. Okay, well, yeah, I mean, I mean, what was the premise of Bumble? It was, yeah, women know they was anti man. Yeah. Well, he was not happy with a male dynamic. The way men behave the way men treat women, talk to women, etc. and their whole branding was all around the female perspective, right? And it's great branding, talking point, right? And that's for them. What sets it apart. If you look at the app itself, I would argue it's actually not massively different to other apps. In all honesty, my research showed me that. But yeah, it's not massively different in all honesty, but obviously, that's their USP to some degree, whether I presume when I'm reading through the lines, maybe men hate that feature that women have to go first. I don't know.
Ali Abdaal 39:50
But I quite like it. The onus is not on me to start teh dicussion.
Shahzad Younas 40:26
It's interesting, right? So we, we actually built winning goes first in much, much in 2016. I think it was, for about a week, so we built it. Yeah, most of them were like, I don't wanna go for the guy, he should message me. And we were like, this community is not ready for it. So we got rid of it after a week, so we tried it and failed it. And there was another app out there for the Muslim market that tried to do it. I think he's dead now. But they tried it, because some things work. So it's good to know that some things work great. In principle, not in reality. A good example, I was today just reading about another app mainstream app, which was saying you know, like, the death of swiping and all this kind of stuff. And then they had a either feature or the central part of that app was that the more you talk to someone, the more their face unblurs. And we were mentioned in this article, because we allow men and women to blur their photos if they want to control who can see it. Anyway. so that was their principal. So the principal great, you know, you're you're committed, you start talking to someone, and obviously, the more interest you show in them, the more you talk, the more effort you put in, the more rewarding that you'll see. That's a good filtering mechanism. Surely, yeah. Now the problem is, is great in principle, reality, the reality is, within reason we all time poor, right? The reality is, you know if you're single and wanting to meet people, let's say you go down this road of talking to people without knowing what they're about, and you can't deny that attraction is important. Of course, it is, you know, it's in our DNA, right? It's in our basic human instincts of where we attracted to people. And attraction is a valid reason of why people get together, right? So to deny that, I think isn't sensible, I think, personally. So let's say you went down this road, and you were talking to five people in a row. And you invested this time and talk to them, and then each one, you're like, not my cup of tea. That was a waste of time. Probably after a couple of hours, you're like this is just not working for me. Yeah, you know, you know, the converse could be the effect where, you speak to five people who are amazing, and you're attached to them all. Maybe you're not, you know, but whatever. So I just think there's sometimes some things work great in principle, and not in reality, I forgot why I was even talking about this. But anyway, to go back to your earlier point. So I think genuinely there is a problem with how men particularly the approach they have online, and how they talk to people, I think there's a certain ease in how you can talk to someone. Yeah. And because of the ease to start a conversation, the ease and how you can end that conversation or not, or choose not to enter i.e. ghost. And I think that this is just a modern phenomenon now, of, you know, just now it's easier than ever to build a connection with someone via on Facebook, and all these social networks, whoever, you know, random person that you've never ever met, you can message them or have a conversation, and then no one feels like they owe each other anything that doesn't carry on.
Ali Abdaal 43:37
And there's no social cost to just ignoring them.
Shahzad Younas 43:38
Exactly. Right. And it's the same here. And I think, you know, so I think while we're at this juncture where this is relatively new, that's why it's difficult to deal with. So then part of that, no doubt, there's a role of platforms like ours to encourage good behaviour and deter by behaviour. And I think one thing was much has always tried to be about, we're trying to bring out the good, get rid of the bad, you know, so things like, you know, we were the first app to automatically censor to a bad language, you know, so if you're, if you swear at someone on the app is automatically censored, which other apps didn't have, which baffled me, we were the first app, you know, on a religious perspective to allow you to have a chaperone in, which is novel, no one else is doing exactly like no one's doing it. And I'm thinking about it at the time thinking this is a no brainer, like, why have we not got this, I built it in. We were the first app on the security side of self replication, right? We were actually the first app, I believe, to have an oath that you agree to before you use it. So when you sign up to Muzmatch it will literally those a screen that would come up before you talk to anyone that would say Bismillah, which means in the name of God. And it would say basically, I promise you the app properly and if I don't, I'll be blocked and banned. And you have to accept it to continue. Now, of course, I you know, maybe 9% of people don't even read it and just go whatever right next. But just by having that sets the tone of what is and isn't acceptable on this platform and it's interesting to see other apps begin to introduce some form of of oath some agreement that you as a user, agree to. Which I found interesting. One thing by having that and equally we have, you know, when you match with someone, we do something really simple and trivial, which is at the start of the chat, we just say 'Keep it Hala', or we will have a funny line, like, 'God is always watching' Or like our team, see what you're up to whatever, right?And, of course, most people will ignore it. But for me, it was important that that was always there. Because I want to make sure that we set the tone. And the flip side of that, equally is if something bad does happen, do we turn a blind eye to it? Or do we take action? And for us, we firmly take action. You know, we get rid of, you know, I am tell the team, you know, we we blocked 100,000 accounts, which is a lot.
Ali Abdaal 44:27
Wow. Okay.
Shahzad Younas 45:30
Because we know what is and isn't acceptable, and what we do and don't want on our platform. But just to finish the final point, the Muslim men problem. Yeah, sorry. I actually think so I thought about this as a man. And I thought why I was in my Germany quite useless. All this and being I'm speaking very generally to cover all the politically correct community out there, but I'm very politically incorrect at times. But anyway, how and why are men Muslim in generally quite useless when it comes to this. And part of that is our upbringing, right? Where we're brought up or maybe slightly less so now, but generally less in my generation, whatever, were brought up generally, in a fairly segregated world, right? You didn't really gel with girls, you didn't really, there wasn't without those social settings weren't really there. And probably your only interaction later on were maybe University, but even then, if I look at, you know, me at University, generally, I had a very male group and there was a female group. So we're brought like that, and then you are, you know, by told by your family or you're under pressure to get married and find someone, right, you know, and you know, what the hell, what do I know about women, right, and then you meet someone, you talk to them, you get married, and you suddenly live with them with a girl, or you live together, you've never lived with someone before, or you've only ever lived at home. So you're navigating all of this. And for some people, you're living at home with this other person, right? How you know, that's difficult. And so you undergo no training. And I actually looked at and I thought, okay, if you look at the, you know, the Western world, the non Muslims, right, how do they meet people and all that stuff. And they obviously, you know, from a young, relatively younger age, were from teenage years onwards, they have relationships, you know, all that kind of stuff goes through the all of that they live with people, with people of the opposite sex, they do all of this stuff. And that's an education, right? Relationships that don't work out, they are an education. That's part of you learning about you about, how do I deal with other people? How do I deal with other situations, difficult situations, good, the bad, the ugly, right? And that's how you evolve as a person. And I do think for as Muslim guys and girls, but but you know, let's say guys in this in this particular scenario, don't have that education. So I think we were slightly socially illiterate in some ways, and we're playing catch up, and I would damage genuinely, not to give them you know, to give them the benefit of the doubt, I would put some of it to that as a reason. To be fair.
Ali Abdaal 48:06
I think that's, that's entirely reasonable. We were, I was on a road trip to Cornwall with the boys over the weekend. And we were talking about this phenomenon of like, Why are Muslim men weird? Yeah. And we were sort of trying to come up with like, pet pet theories around this. I think a big part of it is the gender segregation stuff. Because I think, like, if I think back to my experience, coming to university, I wasn't drinking, and that sort of barred me from the 98% of the social interaction that was happening at university, especially as a first year which is revolves around alcohol, then it's like, okay, cool there are these societies like the Islamic Society and Pakistan society and things. And in the Islamic Society, the first time I had heard that, like, talking to a girl is bad, basically was through the Islamic Society. And I was like, Whoa, okay. That's rogue, but like for most of the people there who had been been brought up in more like, sort of surrounded by the Muslims and stuff, that was just normal. And of course, I'm not gonna be friends with a girl that's just ridiculous Why? How on earth can you possibly imagine that you'd even live with a girl? You know what's going on there? And in a way, sort of free mixing, is so stigmatised. You know, some people say rightly or wrongly based on like, whatever the rules are, but I feel like that must have an impact on the kind of development for sure. And I feel like for me I feel thankful now I've got I've got female friends and I live with a girl you can point out be like okay, yeah, you know in this context you're an idiot the way you said that thing was not sensitive because that person is sensitive about something.
Shahzad Younas 49:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. And even like you know, you know personal level for me right? It's an education I say things that in my head on remotely big or remotely major and then for the other person is massive, right? Especially for women I'm sure I'm sure I definitely have but, but and that's an education for me to be like, okay, not everyone thinks this way or I need to be sensitive to this or I need to be more accustomed to this or attune to this or whatever. And I do think you're dead right you know, you got the religious angle of the element of free mixing and all that kind of stuff, which I won't go into. But I think there's one thing that, you know, I think we as a community have failed somewhat is and Muzmatch is great example of this actually. We have been asked, did you have loads of pushback when we launched as much, you know, as you know, because at the time, remember, mainstream dating apps were quite taboo, or whatever. And, and they had a bad rep. I think that rep has improved over time and it's become the norm now obviously, whereas for us, just the fact that we weren't an app, a dating app for Muslims was like, Whoa, how Haram is this. But then, you know, thankfully, we've been super successful. And I think, you know, we've been successful because the need was clearly there. And people were like did you have a lot of pushback I remember thinking I would, and genuinely, I don't think we've had as big a pushback as I thought we would by religious community or whatever. And I think A) because the need is clearly there. Number one, but I think B) because no one's solved this, they haven't solved it. Yeah, you know, they haven't figured out like there's a big crisis, the Muslim community, how do you get the young Muslims married? And how do they stay married, right? And you can hark on about the old ways of doing things. But unless you come up with something that works, and that is approachable for young people and talk to them in a voice that works. You're wasting your time. And I think up till now we have religious the religious community haven't done this, because it's difficult, and it's messy. You're talking about, I would love for mainstream religious elders and speakers to talk about how to navigate online as a Muslim. You know, how would they know? Yeah, but even for them to just rightly, and so we're having to fill the gap here, right? We're having to talk about these things of how do you navigate online? How do you deal with red flags? How do you approach them online? We should even talk about what is good isn't good to talk about online, all this kind of stuff. Which a gap, right? But yeah, but part of me thinks because this is new. Yeah. You either try and figure out yourself. You can't be you can't just be offended by it or give up because hard is on us to figure it out.
Ali Abdaal 52:05
Interesting, so changing gear slightly? You presumably have access to tonne like zillions of data points around kind of preferences, men preferences, women preferences and so on. Do you have like a list of what are the things that a Muslim girl is looking for in a Muslim guy? Asking for a friend.
Shahzad Younas 52:21
I thought a doctor / youtuber was top of the list. Profession, I probably I would say it's probably the biggest one. I don't want to say stroke income. But income, no doubt is important. And I've heard that and I've seen it. So whether you imply that by perfection is part of it. But I think part of it comes down to actually there is there is a gap between Muslim men and Muslim women. Muslim women are academically and professionally way ahead of so many men in many areas. And so we're playing catch up already. And they're like, Where's the guys who are our level? That's where we get stuck. And that's where they get stuck with that frustration. Yeah. And I don't know how we solve that. But what we're trying our best, but the least we can do is help them identify the people who come up with a criteria but whatever. So I think no doubt they're trying to find people who are profession / inome.
Ali Abdaal 53:18
For the record, me posing with a Tesla. Because like income signalling!
Shahzad Younas 53:25
You may have gone too far, no kill that we don't need that.
Ali Abdaal 53:37
Me posting a selfie with my stethoscope at work. It's like, Oh, hello.
Shahzad Younas 53:40
That's not bad. Yeah, you know the doctor vibes that's good. You know, the guitar singing, you know? That demongraphic will like that.
Ali Abdaal 53:48
You know, it's a bit try hard you've got all the baggage associated with any type of signalling.
Shahzad Younas 53:54
And your singing voice, it needs a bit of work
Ali Abdaal 53:55
I was thinking in the shower this morning. I really want to find a singing teacher that can have two lessons a week. I was listening to have you heard the songs by Olivia Rodrigo. Recently. I've heard the driver's licence. Yeah, kind of went viral. her album came out like two days ago. Yeah, I've been having listening to that on repeat. And she's just absolutely sick of singing and I would like to have how do you do that? I was speaking to complete complete tangent. I was speaking to a YouTuber friend of mine who's a professional like musician. I was like, how are you so good at singing? She was like, well, I've been having singing lessons for 20 years. And I was like damn Okay, lessons do help. Okay, dude, I'm gonna get anyway that aside.
Ali Abdaal 54:07
Yeah and not being weird is the final one.
Ali Abdaal 54:35
How do girl defind werid?
Shahzad Younas 54:37
So you know what, I have seen this because I have sometimes the misfortune of actually reading was much chat, particularly when something gets reported. Definitely there's a there's an art to a conversation, no doubt, right. There's an art to how to hold a conversation how to ask the right questions. How do you know how to carry a conversation and I think a lot of Muslim men aren't very good at it. Okay you know it's very either and don't be wrong I think mostly women to some degree as well but sometimes it can be very tick boxy you know because you're on you know you're on a platform like ours, you are there to find the person you're gonna marry right? And no doubt most likely you have these criteria in your head yeah and for some people they're straight on the criteria.
Ali Abdaal 55:17
Oh so I'm looking for an ABC.
Shahzad Younas 55:19
Yeah it's like too much too soon right? Like you know if you look at it, probably the first thing you want to see if am I interested in this person. Yeah, forget everything else. Are they just an interesting person that I can talk to? And then you can drip into the other bits of what do you do for a living bla bla all that kind of stuff. I think the art of conversation is definitely lacking and I've heard that a lot I will probably say you know, you touched on it earlier which is generally speaking Muslim women are way more serious and their intent is way stronger than a lot of Muslim men not all but a lot of Muslim men. And so for them the moment they find a Muslim man where he's equally on that same wavelength of being cool with the intent Yeah, you know, mostly montane on COVID if you want to get family involved early Yeah, no problem you know, happy to tell me again we're getting married right but I'm happy to talk to your mom or your dad whatever. Fine it's just important to you cool. Yeah, I know. That like I think for a lot of Muslim women it's a clear marker. The big thing I've heard time and time again especially by Muslim women where things haven't worked out is it took him three months to tell his family about me you know like things like that.
Ali Abdaal 56:26
That's not that rogue in like white people dating.
Shahzad Younas 56:34
Yeah for the Muslims it's different right. Because, like I said, doesn't mean you get married but at least it shows that I'm serious in this one. Right. To to even remotely involve a family member. So I think I actually think and the thing is, which is good for Muslim men is because that ball is being polite. Yeah, I'm not even joking. Yeah, having a remotely sensible profile with just normal photos. Being but like normal photos, just like normal, just a sensible normal profile with nothing to LTT nothing too fancy. And just having a normal sensible conversation, you're in the top percent I'm telling you and people don't realise that they really don't so I think for most of my of your half decent you're in good stead you know. So you've got hope!
Ali Abdaal 57:32
Yeah, I was speaking to another friend of mine who is this guy actually emailed me, because often I joke. OftenI say, my YouTube video I've got I'm single and looking for a wife. Joking, joking. So he emailed me being like, like, I've helped loads of my mates, you know, get better with women. Yeah, help you out as well. And I kind of messaged him him the other day, because I was asking me like, hey, Michael, any any tips on how you have an interesting conversation with someone over thinking of like, change or something? Yeah. And he was like, you don't need to be fancy about it. You can literally just be like, hey, how's your day going? Yeah. And I was like, my mind was blown. Yeah, it's true. I thought I had to in the first message, you know, you know, be quirky, be witty and be funny comment something about that profile, not comment on a photo, because that's weird. Come another thing. He was just like that. I just say, Hey, how's it going and start a conversation.
Shahzad Younas 58:29
He's right to be normal sets you apart now, because so many people think they have to be this thing, or act in a certain way, which is, which is abnormal? And I'm sure particularly for women, it must be tiring. Yeah. Like getting that kind of interest or whatever, you know, like, and I think it'll be refreshing. I'm sure. I can't speak for women. I'm not one but I'm sure it 'drefreshing to find someone just normal with a head screwed on. Who could have who can hold a good conversation? And you're right, it doesn't have to be like, a lot of people don't, you know, asking about their day is kind of different to ask him about the day and actually be interesting what their What? Their response, right? And they're not going from that, you know, they're going to some way so yeah, there's you don't have tick box questions either.
Ali Abdaal 59:31
Do you have any thoughts on for example, a 23 year old Muslim girl and a 23 year old Muslim guy are in very different places when it comes to intent for marriage. Yeah. Do you have a theory on what is the ideal age gap to get to, you know, what age is the man to be at the same level as like a 25 year old woman for example.
Shahzad Younas 59:52
I think this is a this is a hard being Jen being very general in my opinion here. I would say I think amended loadout take longer, take longer to cook. Even if I just look back at myself, I think it was after about 27-28, where even I felt that I had matured in some way. Yeah, people still say I'm not mature, but whoever, anyway, well, I thought I'd mature, I think, job wise, I was in a better place. Yeah, I felt like I figured things out a little bit more of life, whatever, or even about me or what I was doing. And I think I would just do a lot more attuned to, you know, not necessarily like to be in a relationship but but this whole dynamic of meeting someone and talking to them and getting to know them this whole thing. Whereas if I look at myself before, then I think I was very mature. You're not consciously thinking about it with a with a grown up mentality. I think you're quite young then.
Ali Abdaal 1:00:46
What do you mean about grown up mentality?
Shahzad Younas 1:00:48
As in understanding the call it I say, understand the long term consequences of things that you say and do you how you don't remotely think like that, like everything is now you do stuff? Yeah. Which is kind of good. Don't get me wrong, because you know, it's fun, whatever, right? And this is why I don't think there's a firm rule, because some people do grow together. Yeah, you know, let's say to 23 year olds, with a lot of patience go together. And you know, it's like a beautiful thing with two people. And it said, they've evolved together. And they become this amazing, either, you know, indeed, two individuals, or this amazing couple, because of the way they bounce off each other from then. But then probably more often, I would say, I don't know what statistics are, but more often, I would say, they probably end up going like that, right? Because they grow apart because the like, whatever I was, whatever reason I thought I was with this person, then is not who I am now. Yeah, you know, and it's your own evolution. I do think, now for us, you know, let's say in the West here, I do think it's like 28 ish, where job wise, education wise, your own mental growth, you're at a place where you've more figured life out and what you want out of life, and by implication, then what you want in a partner, okay, I think you have a better idea than was probably before. Most likely, if you were to be honest about it, the person you were with, would just kind of accident. You know, you just I don't know if you prefer the union. Yeah. But this is why it's hard. And this is why, you know, so many days, you got to have all the science of reading scientific and all this kind of stuff. You know, we've always personally, we don't have a and I'm still deep down a little bit cynical of it. Because I'm generally convinced there is no science of why TV will work and don't work. There isn't, no one can ever explain why combination of personalities work, right. And by the same token, sometimes, you know, the accident, your friend, why that you end up getting Wi Fi, it can work really well because the premise of you to getting on was there was no God, there was no pretence this was it. And, you know, the obviously was something you liked about that person, which is why you got with them. And you naturally kind of grow because you're patient is hard as messy. Yeah. But that's why it's fascinating. I don't think for so many things, I think there isn't a rule as such. There's general advice or the general thoughts. But there's I equally think there's plenty of exceptions, which, I guess keep it interesting. So I'd love to have a clear answer. I don't think I have it. We've had to be give you the lazy answer, I would say. Yeah, for guys. No doubt. I think it is a bit older, because I think we need time to to mature.
Ali Abdaal 1:03:22
Anyother thing I'm curious about is how popular is the blurred photos feature? And like, because that's interesting that that was like a novel thing when you guys introduced it.
Shahzad Younas 1:03:31
Yeah, so I think when I last had something like 20% of women, and 5% of men, it used to be a female only feature. And then we had and then we had quite a few men, particularly in the community who were, let's say, well known who wanted to be private. And I was like, actually, I can understand even as a guy if you want to be private, and you have platforms, so therefore, you should also have it so anyway, both genders can decide to choose to blur the photos. And then we went on a whole new whole journey of how do you unblur photos? Do you both unblur when it matches does the male photos on blur and then the women can on blue afterwards? We changed about 10 times and we I don't think we've fully in the end we resorted to, we just leave it to you guys. You can decide who wants to unblock when you can blurb back again if you want. And fine. Yeah, so we've been we've been on this whole journey of figuring out how to unblur the photos once you've loaded. But anyway, we actually did we actually did some analysis. So we found statistically with blood photos, let's say this is from a female perspective, because I think we did it when only women who had blood photos, but statistically, you are more likely to get much with blurred photos. Oh yeah. However, you are more likely to be unmatched straight after. So because I think for men, they will be like she's blurred, whatever, I'll take the point and like yeah, and therefore you like them back you match whatever. But then the moment I guess he Is your photo I oh no my cup of tea here doesn't match so as we found in the data so we've generally speaking you would say having blurred photos leads to poor quality matches and not all good conversations so we actually did a thing I think about six months ago where we because the principle of having blurred photos is great privacy and all that but the practicality is because you know like I said we are we're visual creatures both men and women right and you know to deny that I think is is naive personally. So what we did was we educated us better of all right if you want blurred photos, this is the effect and you get poor quality matches you will get seen less etc etc all these kind of things you know the quality will be poor for you. And so we did all that and generally we found it you know, which is the intended effect but fewer people decided to blow the photo. So then now we've got it down to like 15% I think at the peak it was 30 from memory.
Ali Abdaal 1:05:59
This is one of those very inconvenient truths about life that people are superficial and looks matter. Yeah, so this is why it's just not very woke to talk about the the fact that looks matter.
Shahzad Younas 1:06:17
You know, so let's say you go on the Islamic perspective if a woman can be married for 14 for things, lineage, wealth, beauty and religion right and beauty is one.
Ali Abdaal 1:06:29
also wealth and lineage aren't particularly woke.
Shahzad Younas 1:06:32
Yeah, you know, Lord Mountbatten. But yeah you know but beauty is one reason I no doubt look basic human instinct and was in us you know, in our innate nature is both men and women there is an element of attraction to the opposite gender right and looks is one there is an ideal of beauty whether you like it or not right and you know no doubt in the West that the ideal is programmed to some extent but it's there so you can't fight it and no doubt and don't get me wrong in this whole situation. Women get a hard time because they've been over the head with this with this vision of beauty and this this standard that they're having to be held to right so no doubt the setup doesn't make it easy for them right but at the heart of it and you know, we can't deny that both men and women looks are so important they are and there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with that at all. And like I said, you know there are apps out there that try and it was one thing we're trying to do sorry to slightly counter that so let's say you've got blurred photos. So imagine you've got a profile now and our profile is quite rich there's like 22 different data points on the profile there's a lot that you can put on there and we're actually adding more so our goal is you know how can we encourage people to be slightly less superficial? How can we bring out your personality better on the app in different ways you know, be it with voice be it with video etc. So we got some cool stuff that we're looking to build quite soon especially that will help the blurred profiles but it will help everyone you know, how do I how do I get someone attracted to me not just based on a photo? That's the hard bit right exactly and then the flip side let's say most of women is yeah How can you know the you know how can we help them determine how serious the guy is? Okay, if we can answer those two questions well if any dating app can that's like gold, and that is where we're striving towards and it's hard this is really hard because you're trying to tackle that in a way that you can solve at scale, that you can solve a man that's that you can solve for women that you can solve using technology you know, it's a complicated problem you know some things like I said sound great in principle, but trying to nail in reality is very difficult. But but we haven't finished we've got a tonne of stuff that and that's what for me keeps me excited like I've got so many ideas where now thank god we've got a team where the idea is we can actually build yeah which is amazing it's such a great place to be and that's what keeps me buzzing yo uknow genuinely.
Ali Abdaal 1:08:56
How does it feel because like you know 100,000 weddings have happened because of the app that's a lot like you as an individual are having a needle moving impact on
Shahzad Younas 1:09:10
the birth rate haha which for a lot of muslims is already high.
Ali Abdaal 1:09:16
That's got to be weird right?
Shahzad Younas 1:09:17
You know, I'll tell you the way it the weridest and most satisfying thing I had was once I was on the DLR the train for those don't know it in Canary Wharf and the guy on the seat in front of me it was almost match and I just happen to just like look over and so as I hold on yeah I'm just you know feeling like what like that's when it hit me Wow, like this is it sounds weird but it's real Yeah. Like people use it in their own time and then you know, they're getting use out of it in value. And definitely you know, the number like I remember once I was at this event and this She's like a matchmaker quite well known in the community and she came up to me and she was like, she's you know, you'll put me on business here because like, I feel like we should like the if I speak to all my clients, the biggest reason they're not using me and, you know, practically the biggest reason that people are telling me their getting married is because Muzmatch is working. And I was like, great. That's literally what we're here for, you know, but I was like, great. It's working. And you know, the yesterday somebody emailed me their success story. By the way, my sister also found someone on your app. And my brother also found something. I don't like bloody hell the whole time. Right. And it's really good, you know, yeah, it's amazing, genuinely is and like our mission. You know, and I will tell the team, our mission is transforming how Muslims meet and marry. Yeah, that's our mission globally as we want to do. You know, like, we've definitely made huge strides in the west for Muslims in the West. But now we're looking like to the Muslim world, how are they going to evolve you know, because no doubt that young Muslims in the Muslim world, their perspective on marriage, their willingness to be empowered to find our own path, it's all changing right? And we want to be the platform to help them on that journey right? We've no doubt got tonnes of work to do on that as well but but that's kind of where that's what excites me You know, that's my mark on the world. When all is said and done I want you know, Muzmatch to be genuinely an app or a platform where people look up to it saying, you know, the real world impact in the community of what we did, you know, I think that's major.
Ali Abdaal 1:11:20
Yeah, that's pretty cool. I feel like that's a good place to end it cause I'll lunch has just arrived but yeah thanks for coming on any anything you'd like to plug? How can people find you? How can people learn more?
Shahzad Younas 1:11:35
For now Muzmatch.com download the app it's completely free on the app store's. I am on Twitter, @shahzadyounas_. So if you've got let's say you're you want to start a business. You want advice on anything, I genuinely welcome people to just just reach out I always like when I was starting up, I struggled to find a mentor someone to actually talk to who would actually there's a lot of people who talk but there was a few people actually been there done that. And I really struggled so I try and do my best to share any advice or knowledge or whatever I can to help other people get through it. So if I can help reach out.
Ali Abdaal 1:12:10
Amazing thanks for coming on.
Shahzad Younas 1:12:13
Yes, thank you. Wicked love it.
Ali Abdaal 1:12:16
That's it for this week's episode of deep dive. Thank you very much for listening. If you did enjoy the episode, please do share it with friends. And do leave us a five star rating on Apple podcast or on the iTunes store that will be linked in the show notes and do let us know in your review who you'd like to see next on the podcast. If you didn't know we've also got a video version of the podcast that will be on the deep dive YouTube channel and we also have a deep dive clips YouTube channel again, links to those in the show notes and you can check them out if you like. So thank you so much for listening. Have a great rest of day and always remember journey before destination. See you later.