Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
From soil to plate and everything in between. Peas in a Podcast digs into our local food system, hearing from the people who grow, bake, keep, and share it, and exploring what we can all do to make good food healthy, sustainable, and accessible for everyone.
Peas in a Podcast brings together the farmers, bakers, beekeepers, and food makers at the heart of our local food community to talk honestly about what's working, what's hard, and what we can all do to make good food healthy, sustainable, and accessible for everyone.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode two of our live podcasting recording. This is Peas in a Podcast, which is hosted by myself, Joey Clarkson, for Bridport Food Matters. This podcast is all about interviewing local food producers, suppliers, and experts about what difficulties they have, how we can help them, and what they love most about what they do. Today, for episode two, we are joined with Al McNabb of The Old Ways Farm. Hey, Al.
Joey:How are you doing?
Al:I'm very well. Thank you.
Joey:Yeah.
Al:Thanks for having
Speaker 3:me.
Joey:Thank you so much for agreeing to speak with us. I think it's really cool that that I get to interview you because actually, out of all of the Bridport people, I've known you for quite some time, but we've not actually had a chance to sit down and chat very much.
Al:Nope. Really. So
Joey:I'm really excited to catch up with you and hear all about your farm. The last time I spoke to you, actually in person, I think you were still running the pursuit of happiness, and this is quite a big jump. So, I mean, it's a short podcast. Let's jump straight into it. How did you get from running the coolest pub in Bridport to running a really super cool farm?
Al:Well, it's a cool pub. There's there's many cool pubs, but lockdown was the thing for me. I'd always been passionate about farming, food, the countryside, but I couldn't see a way in. So I went into the pub because I knew I could do it, and I didn't see any barriers blindly. And I just went racing in to do that and with an idea to I need to make some money so I can go farming because I knew it was expensive.
Al:Yeah. I didn't know how expensive it was, but I'm glad I had that period of time to mature as a person and stuff. But in lockdown, I found myself with nothing to do, and I found myself reading all the old books I used to read and watching the old films that I used to watch and just thinking, really, why am I not farming? Because that's my passion. Amazing.
Al:So yeah. I mean, anyone who stayed in the pub with me for longer than half an hour, I would usually divert the conversation onto farming. That's how passionate I am about it. But then I guess I just thought enough's enough. So I'm gonna start the process of thinking about how I'm going to enter agriculture again because I I was involved when I was younger.
Al:I went to university, I studied agribusiness. I went down under Australia and New Zealand. And when I came back, because I wanted to be closer to family, I just couldn't see the the route in at that time. And I didn't want to work for someone else because I'm quite belligerent and entrepreneurial. So the pub took seven years, and then I thought I was ready.
Al:So
Joey:I think that's incredible. I wouldn't say you're belligerent. I think that is an unfair word for you, but I love I love everything about what you've said and how you've built this. So a big hurdle for you was finding the financing to get started because I was we said farming
Al:Yeah.
Joey:Is expensive. It's not something you do to get rich. It's something you do because you love it and because you wanna make a difference in your community and the world around you.
Al:Yeah.
Joey:Can we go back maybe to your education a bit and and what kind of drew you into going to school for that?
Al:I went to a grammar school in Halifax, and it was all very science based. So all their funding, all their curriculum was very much targeted into science. And we moved house when I was 15 from suburban Huddersfield to the moors above Hebden Bridge in West Yorkshire, and that's Wuthering Heights area. It's very wild. And that was a complete, like, reality change for me, and that's when I realized I needed to be involved in the countryside in some way.
Al:But my teachers actually told me I remember the careers adviser saying, you can't be a farmer. This is this is a science school. And I said, well, I'm rubbish at science. So the only lesson I look forward to is PE. So after that conversation, my grades just went down and down.
Al:And then I ended up leaving halfway through the first year of a levels and got a job at a pub as a groundskeeper. But then I managed to get onto this access course at Harper Adams University, which allowed me to go there at 17 and basically do 12 or 14 modules all about food and farming a year earlier. I excelled at that. And then I got onto the BSc course to do agribusiness. So it's not the only way of getting into farming, but it's not just shoveling muck as my careers adviser thought.
Al:So a five year degree was well worth it. I'm not sure now if I'd say it was the only way. I think, you know, apprenticeships and volunteering at a young age, but I didn't have that access so much because I came from Huddersfield where it I didn't know any farmers. Yeah. And I only had those couple of years up on the moorland, you know, like, just amazed by everything the curlews and the and the grass shooting and the fat and the stone walls and Yeah.
Al:Everything that went on there.
Joey:So is would you say that making farming more accessible for for the community and for people and young people in the community, is that something that's really important to you given your your background?
Al:Yeah. Very important. I'm not passionate about many things, but I think if somebody shows an interest in farming as a young age, they need to go and get involved as soon as possible. Yeah. Because it's the antidote to the screen time and video gaming.
Al:Yeah. I'm very passionate about that.
Joey:I think it's a great thing to be passionate about because as you said, like, I don't think a lot of people would have the tenacity to take a hit like that from your teacher, lose your grades, and kind of get down on yourself, but then actually keep going and find the opportunities, make the opportunities, and do the thing anyways. I don't think that's something that everybody has the ability to do. So having people like you share your story and create opportunities for young people, that's really important. Are you open to having young people reach out to you about about your farming experience?
Al:Oh, yeah. Definitely. Amazing. Because it's it can be what's the word? It can be an intimidating industry.
Al:Yes. If you drive past the tractor drivers or the the pickup drivers, they're generally quite stony faced. Yeah. There's a bar there's a barrier to to farming because it's a gruff it can be a gruff macho environment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Al:But you
Speaker 3:They have to pull in. Filthy looks.
Al:Yes. But you can't listen to them. You just say, if you're interested, you just have to go and do it. But if you're not good at school and you have this passion, which you should be able to enter that industry, and I couldn't have done anything else at university, let's just say that. I'm not the sharpest tool in the box.
Joey:Well, university and academics is only one way of measuring intelligence. That's for sure. Most of the people I know come from very broad range of education, and I did not excel at school either. That wasn't my strong point. But it sounds like you're really excelling at this.
Joey:So let's move into your farm now Yep. Which you have you have your farm now. How does that feel for you? And I I guess when you decided to leave Proceed of Happiness and start your farm, what was the first big step in the first moment where you got to step back and think, I've done it. I've I've I'm following what I've always wanted to do.
Joey:Have you had that moment yet? Have you taken the time to celebrate?
Al:I I don't know if I've had that moment, but I I can say now that I really enjoy what I do every day. I never watched the clock. It just doesn't exist that so there wasn't much time. Yeah. I went straight from one thing into another, which I wouldn't advise.
Al:Yeah.
Joey:I just think it's incredible. It's a big career change and I think it is worth taking that moment to celebrate yourself and being brave enough to take that step.
Al:Yeah. I mean, I I know that I'm very, very happy in what I do. Good. So that's celebration, I guess.
Joey:Good. I think it's really interesting too that your conversation happened after our first conversation here with Lucinda, because I know that you're one of her suppliers at the Modbury farm shop. Yes. So maybe you could talk a bit about how you made that connection and your relationship with Lucinda and Modbury and how it's impacting your business.
Al:Yeah. I mean, farmers like me need, farm shops like Modbury because the scale allows us to supply them. I mean, they've got, two or three egg suppliers. So I'm just one of couple of small farms that supply them with eggs, they need point of difference. And they're they're willing to work with us because it's not plain sailing in terms of supplying shops.
Al:You know? Chickens lay rate goes up and down. Yeah. You know? The age of the hen goes up and down.
Al:If you're one farm with one or two or three flocks of chickens, then you don't have a lot of wiggle room. So the likes of Modbury and Washington Poole and Felicity's, they're really important because it's a stepping stone for someone like me in order to scale to reach a bigger shop. And I'm incredibly grateful for them because they give you a they give you a go. They're like, yep. Come in.
Al:Bring them in. Let's see if they sell. Yeah. And we have we have a lot of suppliers like that. It's the awkward thing of when you start from nothing with no produce to sell, then you have a little bit of produce to sell.
Al:You manage to scramble and find some customers. And then the time goes, it's just time and experience. The time goes by and you're able to scale up a little bit more. And then you need to move to the next level to talk to distributors or to talk to wholesalers or, but the more middlemen there are, the less margin you make. Yeah.
Al:So it's a it's a very tricky balance. And so you absolutely need people like that. They're really, close to their customers. Yes. And so they can get the feedback much quicker than a big shop would be able to do.
Al:And they deeply care about the community and the nutrition.
Joey:Yes.
Al:And like they they've they came around to see what I was doing two or three years ago and that's their certification. See what I mean? I don't need a stamp from a regulatory body because my customer comes to the farm and sees what I'm doing and says, yeah, that's good. I want that in my shop.
Joey:Brilliant. I'm just gonna check the time quickly because I would love to leave some room for some questions and answers. We do have time for that. If anybody has any questions, I'll I'll give you a chance to ask them. It's incredible what you're doing.
Joey:And I think that we actually skipped right over asking you what you're farming, which I know of. So can you please I'm sorry that we jumped straight into the conversation. I'm like
Al:It's my tangents. So I farm laying hens and pigs. The pigs is something I do in the woods in Netherbury. They root around in the woods in the best environment of pigs is in the woods. They're very, very happy.
Al:Excellent meat. But I that is like I could sit there and watch those pigs all day long, but they don't make much money. That's the problem. So eggs was the one that I saw as I can scale this fairly quickly. Rather than paying £10 more for a product, the customer's only paying 10 p more.
Joey:And
Al:hopefully they can recognize a bit easier that the impact on the environment and the impact on the nutrition of the egg and the health of the bird and therefore our health is fairly evident when they see what I do and how I raise the chickens. But the pigs is the passion. The chickens are the moneymaker. But even still, it's not like we're not gonna be millionaires. It's just it's something I'm very proud of doing.
Al:The way that we do it is we try and move the livestock regularly so that they're not denuding the ground that they're on. That's the first principle.
Joey:Which comes back to soil, doesn't it? And keeping the soil healthy.
Al:Yeah. Pigs and poultry can do an awful lot of damage. If so you need the right site flat for chickens, and you need to be moving them regularly. And really, that comes back to, like, mimicking nature.
Joey:Mhmm.
Al:Livestock don't want to just sit in one place their whole life. So that's the first thing. Yeah, like you said, the soil is really important. Regenerative agriculture can be there's a million different definitions. But for me, you're improving the soil every day.
Al:You have to be regenerating the land, you're not degenerating or staying the same, but that comes down to building organic matter over time and allowing long periods of rest for the land. Yeah. Just just monitoring, really. And low stocking density is important. And then there's a million other things that you can do, but it comes back to the soil at the end of the day.
Joey:I think it's it's so important to speak about this as well because that's not everybody's priority in farming. I know around here it is. We've got a really great community down here and endorse it that really cares about this. But when you look across the world and other places and like Canada even, like I think soil is important, but I don't think it's necessarily everybody's priority. And it sounds like that's part of what you value a lot in your business.
Joey:And I think that's very cool.
Al:Yeah. I mean, it's for me, is one thing that I can do to help the the situation that we find ourselves in. Mhmm. We can all do recycling and drive electric cars, but they're not you know, we need big changes. Mhmm.
Al:But having said that, the farming is the way that it is because the consumer is driving the price and forcing the retailers to drive the price down and down and down. So food might be cheap, but there's a hidden cost to all of that. Mhmm. And the farmers aren't the problem. The customer is demanding Mhmm.
Al:Whether they know it or not, cheap food, which has been forced into a corner, and farmers have to farm animals inside on concrete and
Joey:Yeah.
Al:You know, because you want cheap food. It's a real catch 22. That's
Joey:a mistake.
Al:The only thing about the eggs is that if you're paying 5 or 10 p more per egg and you're not having a detrimental impact on the water courses and the soil, then that's not a massive jump for the consumer. The most basic egg on the shelf might go up or down 10 p anyway in a year. That's not so easy to say for all produce. Mhmm. Organic is is great, but it's very, very expensive.
Al:Mhmm. So I would really like for rather than a thousand farmers to have 16,000 chickens each. Mhmm. I'd like all the farmers in Britain to have 3,000 hens each. It spreads their risk into another enterprise.
Al:It gives them another revenue stream. And if you manage them carefully, then you've got nutrient rich muck that you can use as fertilizer, bring your fertilizer bill down. You might consider 3,000 hens as enough to actually manage to sell those yourself Yeah. Rather than just be beholden to the wholesaler or the packer or the integrator Yeah. Or the supermarket who you have a contract with.
Joey:Which gives you more control over the pricing and keeping things stable.
Al:Yeah. You've got the bulk of your income coming from your your guaranteed contract, whatever crop or produce you you make. But it'd be good just for every farmer just to have a an egg vending machine on the side of the road. They can reach their customers directly.
Joey:That'd be wicked cool. Yeah. That would be so cool. I think we've got just enough time for one question if anybody does have a question. Oh, no.
Joey:I see two. Let's see if we can get them fast. Go for it, Margie.
Speaker 3:Your idea about the 3,000, hens and the idea of the management farmers selling it side of the road. That doesn't meet the need of the tower block dweller in Hecan. Got any other solution for the gigolo nose towers?
Al:Well, they don't have to the farmer wouldn't have to have the egg vending machine on the side of the road. If you imagine the retailer buys from the egg packer who buys from the egg farmer. So if that egg farmer, rather than having 16,000 hens paying £2 a dozen, has 3,000 hens paying $2.60 a dozen or a little bit more, and they're also rewarded for the environmental work that they're doing, then they can make a living off that. But rather than just farming chickens, they could continue to farm their beef or their cereals, they could also have eggs. Because at the minute, we've got the West Midlands into Wales.
Al:We've got a huge amount of chickens over there. And you know that the detrimental impact of those in that area on the River Wye and everything else. I understand why because we've got different land types all up and soil types all over The UK. All the pigs are in East Anglia because of the light soils. But you can have pigs on heavy land over this way, but you need to manage them differently, or you need to keep them on indoors.
Al:I don't know if that really answered your question, but the hidden cost of cheap eggs is the manure in the water, in the water that we drink, in the towel blocks that you suggested. So it's not for me to come up with a solution, but the government really should be looking at the full circle rather than just cheap food, votes, in my opinion.
Joey:I think we had one more before.
Speaker 3:I'm
Joey:just gonna interject just so we can catch it on camera because you didn't have microphone for the sake of our listeners after. But the question was, if anybody didn't hear, how can people in more condensed city areas that aren't within a close proximity to these farms that ethically farm pigs access ethical meat, and at at an affordable price and know that they're eating quality produce and food. Yeah? Okay. Perfect.
Al:I mean, it's not affordable, is it, for everybody? That's the problem. So I don't know about that. And, again, it's not my place to say, but the hidden cost of cheap meat is what I was saying. So that needs to be addressed on policy level.
Al:But the consumer has the power. This festival and this tent is so great because educating children on what's important in on farm in terms of gassing pigs. We don't want that. But if they knew about it, they wouldn't stand for it. And Hugh firmly witnessed all's chicken out campaign twenty years ago.
Al:That changed the industry from, I don't know, something like 30% free range eggs to 75% free range eggs. That was him just battling, and everybody got on board. Of course, we want our chickens to be outside. You mean they're not outside? What do you mean pigs are gassed?
Al:It's crazy. But the consumer, unknowingly, because they want cheap food, the retailer has forced the farmer to do everything in the most efficient way. But how does someone in a in a town or a city find ethical meat? They have to go to a farmer's market and talk to the farmer. Do you send your pigs to the abattoir, and how do they kill them?
Al:So ours go to snails in charred and they're stunned. They're rendered unconscious immediately. That's when they're killed. So there's no gassing. It horrifies me.
Al:I wouldn't ever take a pig to be cast.
Joey:I think I wanna interject really quickly here too because I think the answer to your question actually lies in what Lucinda mentioned in our first podcast, which is that there are certain farm shops and enterprises like Riverford where they do source ethically sourced meat. And you can know that it's ethically sourced because you trust the vendor that you're buying from. And they offer things like delivery to your location. So as Al was saying, it isn't affordable for everybody. And I think, like, well, I I'm not I'm supposed to keep most of my opinions aside, but just because you want something doesn't mean you should always have it.
Joey:So we need to be more conscious about what we're consuming, how much we're consuming, and maybe we don't need to be consuming as much. Maybe it's your choice to keep consuming, but it shouldn't be disposable. And I think that's part of what we're hoping to tackle here with Bridport Food Matters. I think we are at the very close. I'm gonna take one more question because you've been so patient.
Joey:Yes. So what's your
Al:Thank you. So I'm sorry. Eventually, it was covered earlier, but you were cutting
Joey:So the question is if people were touching back to something Al said earlier in the conversation about the wish and desire to have more farmers have less poultry, but more poultry spread evenly across The UK so that we're not damaging the soil and the environment that they're that they're living in. And we can kind of take some of the pressure off of the living conditions that these hens are forced to live in. And the question that we just had was whether or not the farms, if this were to happen, would then be forced to follow strict protocol for the slaughtering of those hens when the time came, which is a tight I don't know if we can touch base maybe on this because Al is laying hens and not meat birds, but maybe you do have some insight with your business background.
Al:Yeah. One of the guys who works for us does small scale broilers. So he raises chickens on pasture for meat. So they live for double the the length of a a standard commercial bird. They're killed humanely.
Al:That could be the same, though. Every farmer could have a thousand broilers. It's easy. Meatbirds. It's not easy.
Al:Sorry. It's not easy. But in theory in theory, everybody could do that. With regards to end of life hens, they're called spent hens, we rehome all of ours with the British Hen Welfare Trust. So they get a load of volunteers.
Al:They sell the birds ahead of time, and then they all come on one day and we get rid of them. Then they go back to a holding farm, and the people who've bought the hens come and collect them and pay their £10 or whatever. So that's completely doable. Mhmm. If we all grew potatoes and tomatoes on in our little greenhouse or in our garden and had a couple of hens, then that would also help a lot, I think.
Al:But, yeah, there's regulation involved, but it's not that onerous and it's for the protection of the consumer. The smaller you get, the less regulation you need because you're able to talk to Lizinda and Tim Modbury or your other customers and invite them to the farm and show them what you do. Then they basically do the regulating. So I don't need Red Tractor. I don't need RSPCA.
Al:I don't need the soil association. I also can't afford them. So it would just eat into my margin, and I'd have to jump through more hoops and red tape, which I don't like doing. So and you can be you can't be as creative if you've got regulatory bodies down your neck all the time.
Joey:This has been so lovely having you here. This again is Al McNab from the Old Waste Farm. Go buy Al's eggs from Modbury Farm Shop because they're delicious, and you would be helping support a local business. Thank you so much, Hal, for being here for this conversation. Thank you so much for being here for episode two of Peas in a Podcast.
Joey:Peas in a Podcast is brought to you by Bridport Food Matters and Jurassic Coast Media. This limited eight part series was recorded live at the twenty twenty six Bridport Food Festival. If you're interested in helping us fund future conversations, check out the show details for how you can get involved. Thanks for listening.