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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the debrief podcast with pastor Matthew Steven Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Donna Martin:This is Donna Martin, your host, Ty, and we're so excited to be back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I wish my hair looked as good as yours, Ty.
Donna Martin:Well, you know, I change it up a lot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's beautiful.
Donna Martin:Thank you so much. And so we're excited. Thank you guys for sending in your questions. These are amazing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Thank you. Shows only as good as questions.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely. So we're gonna get right into it. And the first one is Kristen from Yucaipa, California. And it says, what is your counsel and how we parent our different?
Donna Martin:She has different end quotes here. LGBTQ plus liberal, non Christian, adult children, where we stand on the truth of the word of God without compromising our beliefs, but also not push them away further into the world.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I would just say, Kristen, that's a it's an extraordinarily difficult situation, and I think a lot of parents are feeling this. Mhmm. You know, there's just so many kids coming out identifying as LGBTQ, and I think a lot of that is social pressure. I think it's cool.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, when I was a kid growing up, man, if you were gay, was a hard life. And that was wrong, and I feel terrible for my friends that were same sex attracted, that were terrified of anyone ever finding the truth, and they really struggled. And so I think a lot of the laws I don't as Christians, nobody should be mistreated. Nobody should be put down. Nobody should be alienated or treated terribly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is America. We're blessed to live here where I get to believe what I believe. You get to believe what you believe, and that's fantastic. But we've gone the other way. Now where kids feel like the only thing special about them is if they're LGBTQ plus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a different, different world than what I grew up in. And actually the opposite is happening. Now I think conservative Christian are the ones that are being bullied on campuses and being made to feel afraid and ashamed of what they believe. Obviously, that depends upon where you live and what school you attend. So a little asterisk there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, there is no one statement for every situation. But I think, especially here in California, a lot of kids who are conservative Christian, and I don't mean like Republican Christian, I mean we believe what the Bible says. We're trying to conserve what has been taught and what has been believed for two thousand years. That's what I mean by conservative. I don't mean Republican.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I feel like a lot of them are feeling like they're being bullied, they're being made fun of, and they're being put down, and I hear this constantly. And what I would say is, you know, a lot of people say, you know, America's original sin is slavery. And I say, okay, obviously slavery is a sin. America's original sin, current sin, and as far as I can see into the future sin, our sin is the majority bullies the minority, and that's what I see. And so when conservative Christians were in power, we bullied people that were LGBTQ plus, people that had different lifestyles.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And now that that's mainstream, I think the mainstream it's just, again, we just, we don't put the stick down, we just switch hands. Is it the left hand or the right hand that's swinging the stick? And it's why, you know, a couple weeks ago after President Trump was shot, I was just so emotional. It's like, look, guys, vote your conscience, vote it out, don't shoot it out, and that's where we are. So what I would say is my first question, Christian, would be how did you raise them?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What were they raised in? So if you've become a Christian as an adult and your kids were not raised Christian, I think that's one approach, because you need to respect the fact that you changed. You changed what you believe, you changed what you're doing, you're the one that's changed, and so you need to have a whole lot of grace and space for your LGBTQ plus kids. And the other thing is just understand is they're not hearing Most Christians, not all, are pretty good at handling this. We've switched.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When I was first starting out, I've even made statements in the past that I wish I wouldn't have made. We handled this in a clumsy manner. I have gay friends from college where I've just had to go back and say, look, I wish I would have handled this in a different way, but that's in every area of my life, not just with gay people, with my kids, with my wife, because I'm a sinner. Some of my friends' kids who are gay, I've had to just say, Look, I'm really sorry how I handled this when you came out. And that's just because I've learned more.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have more gay friends. I know more parents with gay kids. I have more practice doing this, and I'm not the Lord Jesus. So did you change? If you didn't change and your kids have changed, and I don't mean they changed their sexuality, but they changed their belief about sexuality, don't get into the argument, was I born this way or not?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It doesn't matter how you think you were born. What matters is how are you going live? And so I would have that conversation. Just say, hey, here's how we raised you, and just say, and this is what I tell my kids. I think I said this in the message, I don't know when they'll be hearing this podcast, but the message on how build your house.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love my kids no matter what. No matter what they do, what they believe, what they think. There's nothing that they can do to keep me from loving them. However, there's nothing they can do to make me change what I believe about God and how I love him either. And I think what the LGBTQ plus movement has done is they've become the bullies.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so as conservative Christians, how we bullied our way or the highway, I think now I call them the alphabet gang, I think they bully, and they push, and they pressure. And any relationship with adults, Kristen, here's what I would share with my kids is relationships are about give and take. Like you're married, is it always Devo's way, or is it always your way?
Donna Martin:Right, give and take.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. And so what does this look like? And so you gotta talk about, you know, I've had this conversation with my adult kids. Please don't bring sin into my home. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if one of my kids was gay, we'd have to talk about, okay, what does it look like? You know, you've chosen to marry same sex. What does that look like in my home? Mhmm. You know, because I want you to honor my home.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When I'm in your home, I'll honor your home, and I and I believe as Christians, we should do that. Like, when I'm in a Muslim country, you know, I I I don't wanna worship music to Jesus played on speakers. I I tolerate the mosques, you know, because I'm in their culture. And so what does that look like for me to respect you and for you to respect me? And and then I would just say, love you and I'm praying for you, that you come to the truth of what God's word says.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so here's the thing. You don't have to bully. You don't have to argue. There are some things where the Bible, like women in ministry, says one thing in this book, says another thing in this book. When it comes to same sex, it says the same thing.
Donna Martin:That's very clear.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's no difference for thousands of years of interpretation. There's no change in, look, man, God created a penis for a vagina and a vagina for a penis, and I just mean sexually. That's obviously not their only function. But that's how God created that, and that is taught throughout Scripture. So you don't need to argue that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just say, love you, honey. And we believe in submitting, and so here's what's important, Kristen, that you're submitting to the hard issues for you. That it's not just about them being gay, you know, how are you at being kind? How are you at being nice? How are you handling your anger issue, your depression issue, your anxiety issue?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How are you living out the Christian life where you're taking your issues and you're saying, I'm a living sacrifice for the Lord? I mean, I've said this repeatedly. I have far more issues with our heterosexual community at Sandals Church that's just, oh, we had sex again. I'm sorry. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then we have our gay community. Like, that's not an option for them.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I get really, really frustrated because we have gay people that are far more Christian in our church than straight people, and it really, really frustrates me because when read the Bible, God cares about a couple of things. One, how you treat people. One, about lying. And two, what you do with your genitals. Like, it's just it's over and over and over again.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, those are kind of the three things. You know, don't kill people, don't mistreat people, don't have sex with whoever you want, however you want. It's a pretty basic thing, and it's unchanging from beginning to end. And you know, I think as the conservative Christians, we tend to overlook how to treat people, and the liberal Christians tend to overlook the sex issue. And so I would just say, Christian, tell your kids you love them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's nothing that's ever gonna change that, but God does ask us to sacrifice. And you know, I'm a heterosexual man, I don't get to live out all my desires. And you know, my gay friends say, well, that's easy because you're married. And I'm like, well, that doesn't solve everything. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Tammy does not fulfill all my desires, fantasies, you know, or whims. That's just not how life works. And there are constantly issues that I have to surrender, I have to choose service, I have to love her even when we disagree. And if sex was all that it took for you to be married, a lot of people would say married, and they don't, because marriage is very, very difficult. So I would just say be humble, be kind, listen, don't argue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't have to argue. The Scriptures are the scripture. Just say, honey, I love you, and I raised you to trust God. Yeah. And, you know, Jesus didn't come to this earth to live out his sexual desires.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He came to this earth to help us to feed our desires. And whether you're gay or straight, you got unhealthy, sinful desires, and we need to be honest about that. But just because we all have them doesn't mean, okay, Donna, it's okay for you to do what you want.
Donna Martin:Yeah. We can't just give in to I think what's so hard in our culture is that the the identity piece of this sexual, it's become so huge. It's like our sexual identity is our whole identity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's the
Donna Martin:idol. Yeah. Such a small part of our lives. It's an important part of our life. It's, you know, beneficial part of our life, but it is not our life.
Donna Martin:Right? And I think people have wrapped their whole identity around their sexual identity and have neglected so many other things. And I, you know, I think I've shared this before. For our youth that are you know, what you said about this being this is the thing. I mean, especially, like, suburban white girls.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:If you tell them that they're not cool because they're not black or they're not Hispanic or they're not brown or whatever, then they're then they go, oh, well, then I get to be cool because I'm this. Yes. And I think we just have to be so careful about how we are amplifying sexual identity, with our children and realizing, look. This is a small part of your life. We have to do what God says we're gonna do.
Donna Martin:And and, I love what you said about respecting what happens in my home. I tell my kids that all the time. I mean, they're still young, but I'm like, if you wanna live raggedy, you gotta go live raggedy somewhere else. You can't live raggedy in my house. Right?
Donna Martin:You can go live raggedy with somebody else somewhere else when you're older, but being able to go, I love you, but you will respect Yes. How I I wanna honor God in my home.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's good. And I would say with any with any politically divisive issue Yeah. Just, you know, like know, like the current hot button issue with Kamala, is she black or is she whatever? The second you answer that question either way as a Christian, you've lost.
Donna Martin:That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just you've lost, and I just I don't know why Christians want to argue about that stuff. I just don't know. We're so easily triggered, and we're so easily just, you know, just gotta be really, really careful. You know, like I had a gay friend of mine who, by the way, recently died of AIDS, and our last conversation together, he said, do you think I'm going to hell? I said, it doesn't matter what I think.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Like, when you stand before God on judgment day, the Lord is not gonna say, wonder what Matt thinks.
Donna Martin:Right. Exactly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So and I and I just I just I didn't get into that. He knew he knew what I thought, and unfortunately, you know, he died way too young, and because, you know, I think of complications of AIDS, and I don't know that, but I I think so. And he chose to live that lifestyle, being gay is not a choice, but acting on it is. I didn't choose to be straight, but I do choose how I act on my And so be very, very careful not to be triggered by questions, and don't fall into the trap. And so just know, Christian, your LGBTQ plus kids are gonna be all fired up, and they're gonna try to set you up, and they're gonna try to trigger you, and you just gotta be ready and say, Honey, I love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'd rather talk about how are you doing? And by the way, if we wanna talk about a gay issue, can we talk about gay pride? Because I raised you to think being prideful was a sin. Do you still think pride's a sin? Talk about that, and I actually wouldn't do that because that But, blew you know, I mean, there are just so many things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, have a gay friend, another gay friend, and he just always always wants to talk about that, and I just told him, I said, I just don't think your sexuality is your main issue. He's like, well, what's my main issue? I said, you're selfish. You're one of the most self centered friends I have. And I said, that's saying something.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, that's a trophy you don't want. And he just you know, because again, when you're all about your identity, then you're all about you, and that's a problem. And you know, and Christians are that way about being a Republican or a Democrat or gay or straight or their football team. Like, I'm just like, man, the things that people care about and identify with, just just just tell your kids, I love you. I love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? You know? So go go back to the pride thing. I wouldn't say that.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Probably don't say that part.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That would probably blow Yeah. It
Donna Martin:I love you. This is what God's Word says, and I will always love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love you. And the way I raised you is is the way I believe the Bible is. And so, you know, I was actually talking to a guy from Cincinnati, and he was just telling me, he's like, Look, man, he's like, I just don't understand why you think God, whatever. And I just said, Look, I believe in a God who died for me on the cross, and He punishes sin, and I don't want to tick that God off. And I've seen that God raise a kid from the dead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I don't know what to tell you, but that God, the God who can make a little dead kid come alive because I asked him to, I want to live to please that God. That's right. And again, all throughout Scripture, God cares what we do with our penis. Believe that's why circumcision this is what I believe. You know, in a male dominated world, why do you think he said we got to take a little off the penis?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's what I think God's saying, because that's not yours. Yeah. That's mine. And people say, well, why is that? Because sex isn't just about feeling good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sex makes us like God in That's two right. It creates life, and we experience unity. And those two things are very serious for God. God has the ability to create life, and God is one. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, right, when Jesus says the Father and I are one, there's a unity with God that, you know, sex doesn't completely duplicate, but it's like that. And God's saying, look, when you become one, you need to be very careful with that.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we gotta be careful as Christians who we are one with. So so it's a big deal, but but, again, love your kids where they are.
Donna Martin:That was great. Thank you so much. Okay. Here's Annie Moss
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Donna Martin:From Riverside, California. As a public school middle school sorry. As a public middle school teacher, how can I share God or his love with students in class or on campus without violating state laws? There is no Christian club on campus. Students have to request the club.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I would say the first thing is I'd wear a cross. Mhmm. That's the first thing I would do. I would wear a cross, get a tattoo with a bible verse on your arm or something like that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just anything to pique a student's question because you can't answer students' questions. Okay. And the next thing I would do is I'd be the best teacher you can possibly be. I would love those kids. I mean, I would love, love, love those kids because what most of them are not experiencing at home is love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And the reason they're cutting themselves, the reason they think they're gay, trans, whatever, you know, a Furby, you know, I mean, it's just right. It's just crazy, is because they don't feel like there's anything special about them, and there is. They are special, that's a good thing. And so we need to celebrate that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then I would just say, you know, with your students, you know, around Christian holidays, I'm a Christian, is there any Christian here? And then ask kid, why don't you start a club?
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Why don't you start it? I'd love to host that. I'd love to host that. And then encourage your other Christian teachers on campus to support and donate to that club. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, don't just ask the church, ask Christians. And then ask the Christian kids to go home and ask their parents to donate to that club and support that club, and then make sure it's cool. Don't make it horrible. I mean, you you do clubs all the
Donna Martin:time on And, actually, you know, you can. It is your First Amendment, right,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:to share your live. Donna Martin.
Donna Martin:To share your faith on campus. I mean, the Supreme Court just I know this because this is what we do every single day. Supreme Court
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:Passed a law 2022. I mean, it's been like this all the time, but they affirmed from that coach that was praying on this field after a game, and he got fired.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Donna Martin:He sued. The Supreme Court says, yes, he can. So the boundaries are you can share your faith as long as it's not with instructional time. So as long as you're not acting within your, you know, capacity as a teacher, before and after school, you can share your faith with students. During lunchtime with other teachers, you can share your faith as long as you're not acting in your official capacity as a teacher.
Donna Martin:So you're not gonna stand up and say, welcome to my class, and today, we're gonna learn about why Jesus is the savior of the world. Right? You cannot do that. But in passing periods or if students ask you about your faith, you can share your faith. Yeah.
Donna Martin:And that goes for any teacher. And I love that you said if you if there is no club on campus, find a student that want there are kids, especially in Riverside, there are Sandals kids that are in your school. You can find them. Ask the youth pastor that's closest to whatever campus that you are at here in Riverside if there's a student who wants to start a Christian club. Yeah.
Donna Martin:And she can be the administrator, and they can have a cool club, like you said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And let me just say this. When I was a kid, I had a lot of great experiences. Mhmm. The church was the best experience of my life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Like, I know there's all these stories online and TikTok about how the church is horrible, and people are deconstructing their faith. My church was my safe place. The people in my church loved me. They saw me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They encouraged me. They prayed for me. Beautiful saints, many of them that are in heaven. I was reading, I just Googled grandparent verses, because I'm grand I'm grandpa now, and the Apostle Paul says, your faith was first in your grandmother, Lois. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And there was an old lady in my church named Lois, Carl and Lois Churchill.
Donna Martin:Oh, wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Carl was a he was a postman, and he was hit by a drunk driver. Wow. And so he was severely handicapped from an early age. And Lois loved him and took care of him. She retired.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She's a very successful businesswoman, and she took care of her very sick husband And for the day he I'm sure there were days where she was ready for the Lord to take him home But my mom took care of my mother because they had no children, because, you know, they mean, I don't know this, but I'm sure they weren't able to be intimate. Was paralyzed. Wow. So no children, disabled husband, and she loved him. And I remember Lois' faith.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm just so thankful for that. And so the church is just such a beautiful, beautiful place for me, and so many of these kids at your school, they don't get to experience that. Never been to a church Never. Where people say you are loved.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You are special. We believe the Holy Spirit of God gives you supernatural gifts. It's because you matter, and it's just a great, great place. And people volunteer here to work with kids. People take off time on vacation to go up to Forest Home, which is a thousand degrees.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is. Mosquito Mosquito. Mosquito infested, bear ridden. Right? And they do that because they love Jesus and they love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and just know, teachers, most kids will live their entire lives and never be loved like that. Yep. And I, by the grace of God, was loved by very special people. Mhmm. You know, I never got touched or molested or anything close to that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. I had good, God fearing people that just were just so special in my life. And no matter what was happening at school, no matter what was happening in sports, the church was always a safe place for Me too. And I, you know, I just I'm grateful. And I know Sandals is not always that place, because we got idiots here too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I work hard to get the bad people out of this I work hard. So
Donna Martin:that's And the most part, Sandals is that place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. We try. We try.
Donna Martin:We yes. Where we where our students are loved and we're loved.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, Kristen, thank you.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, no. Anonymous.
Donna Martin:That was Adam Moss. Yeah. Adam Moss. Okay. Keep going.
Donna Martin:Thanks. Alright. Ashley from Montclair, California. How can we give grace and forgiveness to those who wrong us without becoming a doormat to them?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. I I think it's okay to have boundaries Yeah. Ashley, but it's not okay to to harbor bitterness. Bitterness in the end just makes you sour. And I actually was I'm gonna talk about this in my sermon upcoming.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was actually really upset with a church member. Very, very upset. And what they are doing is wrong and evil, and I can't mention it because it will just inflame what they're doing. But you know, people want to take down megachurches like a sport now. Sandals is a megachurch, and people want to take us down.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And people are willing to do all kinds of things to investigate my life, my leadership, people who have hurt feelings towards this church. And Sandals is not a perfect place. And you know, you have employees. It's hard. It's hard to be a boss
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And be a spiritual leader. Yes. That is not an easy thing. Because what most people think is a spiritual leader is always going to agree with me and care for
Donna Martin:me. And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:everybody says they want a strong leader until you get a strong leader, and they disagree. And so, you know, there are people that and I've messed up. You know, I fired too late, too soon. Sure. You know, it's a difficult thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I had no classes on management. Like in seminary, they do not teach you how to run a corporation, manage a company. They just don't. We don't pay enough. You know, I tell people all time, I run a business where I ask our customers to pray about what they pay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tell me who has that
Donna Martin:business. Nobody.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like you decide as a business owner, you decide what your margin is. I ask people to pray about what my margin is. And so it's difficult. And we never have the money we need to pay the people that we never have enough money to hire enough staff or to pay our staff. Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's a difficult thing. But I was really upset at this person who's slandering me, and what they're doing is evil, and I was angry. And I was meeting with another pastor, and here's what he said, Ashley. He said, the reason I follow you as my pastor. And I knew.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I knew. I was like, here it comes. He said, it's because you're you do what Jesus says even when it's not easy.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Jesus calls us to forgive and love our enemies. And then he says, and we can't change the world unless we're that kind of Christian. Yeah. And I'm telling you, I was filleted. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because here's what here's what my friend said. He did not say what they did was right.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He called it evil, and it is. Mhmm. And he said, we're in the business of loving evil people.
Donna Martin:Mhmm. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that is Jesus, and that what changes the world. And he said, and that's why I follow you. So what are we gonna do?
Donna Martin:We're gonna love the evil people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like, I'm gonna love them.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm gonna forgive them. And I I'm telling you
Donna Martin:I mean, talk about being formed
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Donna Martin:Into the image of Christ. I mean, that I think is the guts of Christianity where where people think we're just following Jesus, and it's like happy doo dah day until somebody does something to, like, cut you to the core, and you are forced to be for I was thinking about Jesus. I don't know where I'm going here, but I was thinking about humility the other day when I was driving and how Jesus had to humble himself to people that he made. They're crucifying him, and he humbles himself in that moment. I mean, that's being formed.
Donna Martin:I mean, I mean, I feel like that scripture, it's like us being pressed into this mold that's like the image of Christ, and it hurts.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It does. It does. And when people do evil, it does not give us an excuse to do evil bad.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Ashley, I'm praying for you. Yeah. You know, I actually have a boundary with a relative, and you know, I've talked with this person, and here's how I came to this. I've given this person enough opportunities to rob me of birthday parties, Christmases, and holidays. I've given them years of opportunity to change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're not interested in changing. The day they're ready to change, They're back. They're I don't wish them any harm, I don't hate them, I wouldn't even say that they're evil, I'm just not going to spend any more of my energy trying to convince someone that just is just awful. And I've actually don't say awful anymore. I say this around my children, unpleasant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I was convicted, and my kids are adults, I was convicted of how I was describing this person because they're made in the image of God. And so, you know, I wanted to you know, if I was being sinful, I would use the word jerk or the word that ends in whole. You know what
Donna Martin:I'm saying?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So but you know? And if you know what that word is, then you're a sinner. But I felt like I could use the word unpleasant, and it accurately described what I Your was experience. Yes. And that's okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, if you have someone in your life who abuses you or who hurts you, it's okay to not Like, there was this woman at our church, she said, My dad sexually molested me. My mom says he has to walk me down the aisle. And I was like, no. I was like, I'll walk you down the aisle.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Yeah. You don't ever have to touch that man again. Even if he says he's sorry, you don't have to touch him. And I think sometimes as Christians, we're unwise.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We've, you know, we must look at the commands of Jesus, but we also have to look at the wisdom books. Like, we have to have both. So the Bible is what God says. Wisdom is how to interpret what God says.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so as Christians, we're afraid of that. Mhmm. We have to use wisdom. Mhmm. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So in this week's message, I I I don't know when they're posting this, but you know, Proverbs says, it is by wisdom that a house is built and its rooms are filled with treasure. Mhmm. So if you're stupid, a house crumbles and it's full of filth. Mhmm. So we have to both have faith in God and exercise wisdom.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a lot of times Christians get God's word. They don't get God's wisdom.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so wisdom is when to use it and how to use it. Yeah. You know? Jesus tells us not to lie. He tells people all the time, don't tell people what I did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't tell people who I am. Yeah. Because he was exercising wisdom to get to the cross. And so it's wrong to lie, but sometimes it's wise not to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Right. You know? You know, like if we're going on a mission trip, and we land in a country where you can't be a missionary, and they ask you, why are you here, you don't say to share the gospel. That's not what comes out of your mouth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. There are some other true statements. They don't need to know everything Right. About They don't need there we go. They don't need to know all the things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a lot of Christians are like, well, that's lying. Like, that's wisdom.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's wisdom.
Donna Martin:Yeah. And a boundary is wisdom for someone that's hurting you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Donna Martin:Or continually violating you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And back to Revelation twenty one and twenty two, there's a wall around New Jerusalem to keep out. Right. That's what it says, to keep out. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So even in the new heaven and new earth, guess what? There are, Ashley, boundaries. Boundaries. So we gotta be careful with that because now everybody's setting a boundary, and sometimes we create boundaries from people who tell us what we need to hear. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Yeah. You know?
Donna Martin:How can we have grace and forgiveness? Okay. That was good. You answered the whole thing. That was awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm really good at You're
Donna Martin:really he's really good at answering questions. Alright. Basic question. Animas. Yes.
Donna Martin:Oh, another Animas. Not last, but another Animas. Okay. And we say that's anonymous. Okay.
Donna Martin:Yes. Does God use social media as a way to speak to us and give us signs in today's world since everybody's always on their phones? I've had a few times where I'm praying about something, and a video clip will come up on Instagram that is related to what I prayed about.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. God can use anything. Yeah. My favorite verse in the Bible is when he uses a donkey to speak to Babylon. And so, you know, God uses all things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, all truth is God's truth. Mhmm. And so we need to remember that. You know, so many Christians I joked about my sermon Satanic Panic. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when I was a kid, like, if you play the record backwards, you know, and I'm just like, now it's not backwards. It's forwards. Right. Forward is the problem. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I encouraged our parents, sit down with your kids and write down the lyrics. And have them read the back the lyrics. Yeah. And ask them, how how is this how is this acceptable for you? And I get it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's cool, it's popular, and it's catchy. It is. But is this making you a better person? And so, you know, we need to do that with our kids, and that's hard because all of the kids are doing it, and all the kids watching it, and I get it. And I'm just so grateful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, my parents weren't cowards. They would just tell me, you ain't doing that, and I told my kids that. Like, ain't doing that. Go throw at your mom.
Donna Martin:Go rag me somewhere else. You're not doing that in here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So we're we're just not doing that, and I and, you know. So so yeah. God can use anything and everything, but be careful about reading the tea leaves. Know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Really, really listen. You know? God God wants to use the Holy Spirit. God wants to use the word of God. God wants to use, you know, whatever pastor or whatever church you go to and you're listening to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:God is doing something. So be careful, you know? Like, I've watched Christians, you know, oh, God gave me these signs, and I'm like, that's bad. So be careful with that. I mean, obviously there is confirmation sometimes, but sometimes God asks us to walk in faith.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would not get too caught up in that, you know, looking for signs, but just say, okay, wow, that really convicted me. Like, sometimes I'll watch a movie, and I'll be like, I get convicted by movies that Hollywood makes about, and not about sin in my life, but about something I've been praying about or thinking about, because God can use all truth to glorify Him. And so what I would just say is just say, Lord, every day I shared in my message two weeks ago that all of July was in Ezekiel and in Revelation. I'm like, oh, Lord. Every day I was dreading reading my Bible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just because it's, you know, it's kind But of you know, over and over again in my journal I wrote every day, Lord, please let me not become hard hearted. Please let me listen to what you're saying. Please let me repent. Because Ezekiel's telling him. He's like, here's what the Lord said, and and the Lord said, you won't listen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Like, and they they don't listen. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so just constantly say, God, open my mind. Open my heart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Keep me soft and tender, because it's really easy to get jaded. Yeah. You know? And a lot of times we confuse Christians with God, and they're not. I And remind myself all the time when I get hurt by believers, it was believers that put Jesus on the cross.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They were Jews, but they were believers in God. They thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they were obeying God's law by killing the Christ. And, man, I don't wanna do that in my life. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So great question.
Donna Martin:Thank you. Alright. Last one. Lisa from Riverside, California. How do we talk to non Christian friends about abortion?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man, I've really prayed about whether or not I want to be honest about this question, because I think that no matter what I say, I'm going to tick off half of our church. So I think the issues on the left and right really come down to kind of the problem with America. And the problem with America is we say we're a free society, and both the left and the right are trying to control a free society. What I wish we could do as Christians is get out of the should abortion be legal or not question, because that's a question of should I have the right to control your life?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, if I don't want to get an experimental vaccine, I don't want to get an experimental vaccine. All my liberal friends are like, I am killing my grandmother because My I didn't take the conservative friends, you're killing babies because you believe in abortion. See, both are appealing to death. What I wish we could do as Christians is say this, and so is whether or not abortion is legal or not in this country, that's something for politicians to decide and for people to vote on. I'll vote my conscience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think you should vote your conscience. I want to move from should abortion be legal to what should a woman do. I don't want to take away her choice, I want to have a voice in her life. And my voice is this, choose life. See, think when we get into the argument of me taking away your choice, I think I've lost you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I want to have a seat at the table. And I want to say, Donna, I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I don't know what you're feeling. Understand. But as a man who loves Jesus, I will do everything I can to help you raise
Donna Martin:this baby.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then as Christians, all you non tithers out there, we got to vote with our checkbooks.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we got to have programs and support moms with babies, and we gotta support education, we gotta support opportunity, we gotta help these babies, because they don't just need to keep the baby. Look, here's what the research shows, they need to be with the baby. Healthy children are connected to their mother. And that's where I disagree with the left again. We need preschool.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, no, no, we need moms of babies.
Donna Martin:We need moms
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:of Because a child, the first three years, is far more likely to be independent and healthy. Zero to three is brave when they can see mom. Yeah.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:As long as I can look back and You see mom
Donna Martin:watch that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm brave. Because I know mom is coming for me. That's so I'm gonna explore, I'm gonna grow, my brain is gonna do whatever. But when I'm worried about a bunch of three year olds, what they're doing, right, I don't feel safe. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't don't know what's going on. And I got some person making minimum wage look, it's not the same. Now I realize some people got to put their kids in daycare. I understand that, but we need to be honest about that. And again, what I tell parents to put their kids in preschool or daycare, I would say, I'm not gonna tell you what to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would encourage you is to spend as much time as you can with that baby when they're little, because every hour counts. Every hour counts. And so I think as Christians, if we can pivot from what you can do, and right, that's what abortion is about. Abortion is what can you do. Is it legal or not legal?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The church's responsibility is to talk about what you should do. And you know, abortion was common practice in the Roman Empire. It's not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. But what Christians did is they would go to the temples where women would have the babies and they would abort them, they throw them on the steps, and Christians would scoop up these kids. And this is what people don't realize.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of the aborted babies were women and minorities. Does this sound familiar?
Donna Martin:It's samesy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Think about our country. Most abortions, right, are from low income women, but they're minority kids. Yeah. And that's with the tragedy. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? Like when someone says, do black lives matter? Of course, all of them. Babies and adults, they all matter. And so what the church did is they scooped up these babies of other minorities, and then get this, in thirty years, guess what the church looked like?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It was multiethnic, multicultural,
Donna Martin:and you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:had people who looked like you sharing the gospel because their parents left them for dead, and the church scooped them up and raised them as their own. Yeah. Like, that's how Christianity changed the world, and you know, if we could be doing that. I mean, this is what I told a young woman, and I tell young women that are thinking about abortion. Say, give me the baby.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Bring it here, I'll take it. Yeah. And I'll put it with a family. Because there are families in our church, listen to me, if you're a young woman, there are families in our church that are praying to God for a baby, and your sin could be their solution.
Donna Martin:Yeah. That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We don't fix sin with sin. And so instead of trying to control women and tell women what they can do, what I would say is, hey, here's what I wish you would do. And I say that because my mom thought about aborting me. And I'm so grateful that she didn't. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's why my name is Matthew. Gift from God. Mhmm. Which is what every child is, a gift from God, a precious gift from God. And so the church is at its worst when we make people do what we think God wants them to
Donna Martin:do. It
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:just Don't listen to me. Just look at history. When we force people to live one way, we start drowning women that we think are witches.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, it's just really, really bad. We start drowning people who want to be baptized. We we burn William Tyndale at the stake because he translated the Bible in English. Like, these are the things these are the things that Christians did when we made people do things. I think God invites us, you know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I like I like that you
Donna Martin:said let me be a voice at the table. Yes. I think that is a beautiful way to bridge a conversation with a nonbeliever
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:About this subject, because I think you know, I'm super passionate about this, and so I have to, like, divide and dial back a little bit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, because just because Christian is for abortion. I mean, how can
Donna Martin:you be? I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:well, I
Donna Martin:I don't think so. Yeah. I think you're right. I think that it, you know I'm passionate about it. I've shared before because 20,000,000 black babies, right Yeah.
Donna Martin:Since Roe v Wade. So I'm thinking, gosh. That's voting power. That's economic power. That's our community when we're only 13% of the population, but 40% of the abortion.
Donna Martin:Yes. I think, okay. If we're gonna talk about equity or we're gonna talk about systemic racism Mhmm. Then we gotta start with Planned Parenthood, because something ain't right. Because something ain't equitable.
Donna Martin:Right? Why are 13 of the population getting 40% of the abortion?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, and you were the one that told me that the Planned Parenthood clinics are always in minority neighborhoods. Yeah. And see, did as a Did they pop right an upper middle class white person, I didn't know that. That's right. I didn't know that because I'm not in those communities, and so so that really that really convinced
Donna Martin:It's a cash cow. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it is a business, and they are trying to make money. And if you go and so my cry has always been similar to what you said. Where are the mothers?
Donna Martin:Where are the women that are gonna say, you got this, girl? Like, we got you. Yes. We got this. Instead of because abortion hurts women.
Donna Martin:It women, and and, you know, there's a few of the ones that are raging on there saying they were happy about how many abortions they got. But for the majority of women that that I know that have walked through that pain, there's extreme guilt and pain and shame that accompanies that, and they require much care and much, you know, aftercare, after
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:this process. Probably saw because I said the statement that all Christians are against abortion. So, you know, and then I saw you roll your eyes. I was like, yeah. Oh, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Did you mean to
Donna Martin:roll your eyes? Aren't you pastor?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, no, no. I knew what you were meaning, but I saw the most horrific thing I've seen on social media, and it was a female Methodist pastor,
Donna Martin:and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:she said out loud to her congregation, I'm not making this up, she said, I've birthed two children and aborted two children, and the Lord Jesus was proud of all my decisions. Could not A, I can't believe she didn't get struck dead. Like, I just can't believe that the church shouldn't catch on fire. But that's what happens when the word of God is no longer the word of God. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, and we need to encourage women. So one of our youth pastors was preaching on the woman who bled 13. And so I was listening to a sermon, he asked me to critique it, which he probably doesn't wish that he asked me now.
Donna Martin:Oh, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he said this thing. He said, you know, this woman had her menstrual cycle for twelve years, and he's preaching to kids, he goes, and you all know what a period is. And if not, you'll find out someday. And I said, woah. I said, let me tell you, and I want every woman in our church to hear this, let me tell you what a menstrual cycle is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a superpower. It is a superpower. God has given your body the ability every single month to prepare for the creation of a human life. Yeah. And it is awesome, and without it, you should never be ashamed of your period, embarrassed of your period.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is a beautiful thing, and without it, none of us are here. And I said, that's what a menstrual cycle is, and you need to tell those teenage girls that they should be proud of it, because they can do that, and only a biological woman can do that.
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's a superpower, and it's an amazing thing. And they don't know what it is. And let me tell you something. I was a teenage boy, and I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it was till I got married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like,
Donna Martin:what? And so Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I had no idea my mom did that once a month. I was just like, we had all boys in our house.
Donna Martin:Yeah. I grew up with all sister. I mean, and I'm a girl, but I just told my daughter because, you know, she started her period, and she thought that, she got pregnant through immaculate conception. She just thought babies appeared
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, yeah.
Donna Martin:In your tummy, and she was very nervous. She knew that that started when Yeah. When Well,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it did happen once.
Donna Martin:Your period. Yeah. She knew that babies appear when you start your period, and she was very concerned about this process, so I helped her through it. But back to abortion, a voice at the table to say, choose life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And and there have been women in our church who have had abortions, and it's been very hard for me to see them at church and hug them and love them Yeah. After and and let me say this. I know there are some of our women. I don't mean all the women.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean the women that I've counseled, and they didn't do what I said.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I still gotta love them and counsel them, because sandals is a place for sinners. And if I kick them out, then I gotta kick myself out. So that's the way that it is, and it's really, really hard. But we're not following Jesus when we force people to do what we think is right. God invites us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus says, come to me all who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest for yourselves. Listen to these words. Learn from me. Learn from me. And that's the invitation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The invitation is not, you have to do it my way. Because what I believe hell is, hell is your way forever. There you go. And I realize some of our people who are very passionate about abortion, you might disagree, and why just believe right is right and wrong is wrong, So do I. But at the end of the day, what I want to do is save kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's what I want to do. I don't want to win an argument with a slam dunk. I want to actually have a seat at the table with a young woman, and I was promiscuous before I got married. By the grace of God, my girlfriend and I didn't get pregnant, but that could have been us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I hate to think Yeah. About what decision I would have made. And here's the thing, I believe I would have been more embarrassed to face church people Mhmm. Than I would have to encourage abortion.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's the thing that makes me so sick is we need to let people come to us and say, look, I messed up. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But you know what? We got a baby in there. Yeah. And it's okay. And we love that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we're gonna raise him or her, and we're gonna celebrate them. And what I tell parents all the time is there's no such thing as accidental children, just accidental parents. Mhmm. So Yeah. You know, this baby is welcome and and and loved.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Absolutely loved. Yeah. Love that. Yeah. Thank So I hope you guys get what I'm saying.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not soft on abortion. I just think there's this tension between left and right for how everybody has to live, and Kamala Harris, don't know, like the San Francisco contingent, they want all of America to look like that. And just so you know, worldwide, did you guys know this? Conservatives and liberals? Worldwide, it's not race, it's cities versus rural.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everywhere. England, France, everywhere. There's some weird divide between how we live in cities and how we live in actual communities where we know each other. And communities where we know each other tend to be conservative, and cities tend to be liberal. It's across ethnic lines, across cultural lines, whatever, it's just a weird thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So,
Donna Martin:yeah. Awesome. Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I'm not soft on it. Yeah. I just I just You didn't sound soft. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Good. Yeah.
Donna Martin:No. You said it's a fly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I know I know
Donna Martin:you're be are gonna come. I mean, people have this is such a charged issue. People are, you know, they have their opinion about it. I have an opinion about it. God says something about it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Choose life. Yes. Amen.
Donna Martin:Choose life. Amen. Alright. Thank you for checking out this episode. You can always submit your questions to the podcast anytime by going to move.sc/ask, or you can submit them via the app.
Donna Martin:And we are so grateful. Thank you so much, and we hope to see you next time. Bye.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at give.sc. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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