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When disruption is the norm and you’re surrounded by complexity, you need clarity. Osborne Clarke's straight-talking legal experts will give you the insights and advice you need to get the right result.
Osborne Clarke is an international legal practice with over 270 Partners and more than 900 lawyers in 26 locations*. We help clients tackle the issues they’re facing today, and prepare for the ones they will face tomorrow.
*Services in India are provided by a relationship firm
Warning. In this episode, we discuss sensitive topics which may be triggering for some of our listeners, such as eating disorders, mental health struggles, domestic abuse, PTSD, autoimmune diseases and chemical menopause. Please listen with care and remember that it's okay to pause or stop the episode if you find the content distressing. This episode discusses late diagnosis of neurodiversity. At OC, our AXA medical insurance offers free neurodiversity assessments and we would like to remind our people that they can opt in anytime via the flex platform.
Speaker 1:If you or someone you know is affected by any of these issues discussed today, we encourage you to seek help and support. Useful resources from OC and charities are listed in the episode description and the list is not extensive. In this compelling episode we're joined by Freya Chapman, the residential lead at Mainmark, a renowned ground engineering solutions company. Freya shares her deeply personal journey reflecting on the challenges she faced growing up and the struggles she encountered at school. She candidly reveals how she found her sanctuary initially in the realms of art and design and later in the dynamic field of engineering.
Speaker 1:Freya's story is one of resilience and determination. She opens up about her battles with mental health, the trials of raising her son as a single mother and navigating through destructive relationships including those with herself. Despite these hurdles, Freya has learned to embrace her uniqueness and thrive in her professional and personal life. Join us as Freya Chapman inspires us with her courage, vulnerability and the power of being a little bit different. We hope you find today's conversation and empowering.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us, Freya, on Building Women. It's really lovely to have you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's get cracking. Tell me about your childhood and your upbringing. What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:I'm one of four children. I'm the third girl. And yeah, I was quite disappointed when my brother came along and the bedroom that was once pink went to blue and had to share with one of my other sisters because I was like the little princess in comparison to my sisters. So I've got two older sisters. My mum is a social worker and a therapist and my father is a cementitious chemist and civil engineer.
Speaker 2:My favourite times of my childhood were on my grandparents' farm. They did heavily influence my life. My dad was also in the RAF, so he spent quite a lot of time away. When he came back from the first Gulf War, everything changed. It was like my dad was a different person.
Speaker 2:Obviously as a child, you don't understand what PTSD is. It wasn't a thing. I was five at the time, and he was very different. I can just remember the household being quite different. Then my mum had my brother after he was born, he was about six months old and she couldn't pick him up.
Speaker 2:Then we found out a couple of years later that actually she had rheumatoid arthritis, which is an autoimmune disease, and suddenly she couldn't walk, she couldn't run, we couldn't do any of those active things. Life changed. Huge. It I'm neurodiverse, never knew that. My dad's fairly neurodiverse.
Speaker 2:He's very bright but can't necessarily deliver that information. So it's like talking to a walking talking cryptic crossword and you've got to sort of piece it all together. Whereas my mum is sort of very academic and I never really could communicate particularly well with either because I'm not very academic, not book smart anyway. So school was a real struggle for me. Whereas my siblings, my eldest sister, she's a teacher, my next sister Dan was just naturally just really bright.
Speaker 2:Whereas I was really creative, but also quite introverted. An introvert that could be quite extroverted, so I was either one or the other, and I didn't really understand why. Later on in life I had the diagnosis and can now understand why I am how I am. And my early years, yeah, I struggled with school, struggled with education to the point where when I went to secondary school I didn't really go because I didn't want to be different. And I just picked the classes that I liked and I wouldn't pretend the others.
Speaker 2:And when I finished secondary school I then went and did art. And I've always been really arty and loved to create, but it was really because I good at it. I loved that.
Speaker 1:Did you find in school that you graduated towards those creative subjects and things because that's what you were good at and that's what you loved and that was your safe space?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah. Even though I'm either really, really interested in something, if there's no dope for me, I'm not at all. Because I was always criticised for not being the fastest reader, or if I don't understand something I'll ask the same question over and over again, because I need to have that understand, it needs to make sense to me. Whereas other people would see that I didn't understand. Now I understood what you said, but I didn't understand the meaning of it, or I want to know more.
Speaker 2:And I really struggled with school, to the point where I didn't want to be there anymore, because I didn't fit into those boxes.
Speaker 1:Didn't feel understood?
Speaker 2:No, never. Never, never, never. And then it was easier to not go, which was horrendous because my mum was an education social worker at the time. Then I went to college and I came out of college with distinctions. So it was at that point that I was seen as a person and not an exam mark.
Speaker 2:And it was the first time that I really was spoken to like a young adult and not like a stupid young girl. And I sort of excelled in that, and that's when I really started to find myself. But I was really poorly, so I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa at 13. And I think it was just a coping mechanism. I didn't know what those words meant.
Speaker 2:And at 20, I was admitted and I was in hospital for ten months. And it got to the point where, so if your BMI gets so low, your driving licence is taken away from you because you're at such high risk of having a heart attack. But that was really the point in which I changed. So when I was admitted I thought I was fine. I didn't know what these people were on about, because this was normal for me.
Speaker 2:This was my life. So that's a long time
Speaker 1:to be living with that condition.
Speaker 2:And there wasn't really much help. It was just that that's what it was.
Speaker 1:And there just wasn't as much support around or understanding about any of the stuff you've just talked about, to be honest. So neurodiverse children and anorexia, bulimia, there just wasn't as much knowledge around it and there definitely wasn't as much support. Yes, terrible really to have to navigate that at that time.
Speaker 2:I think it's probably only been in the last seven or eight years that I've started to understand myself. There was a bit of a wake up point when I was in hospital because they'd said to me, it was just before the Easter, said, you either come in on Monday or you'll be sectioned. And the difference between that is that you'll either be an elbow away from us or you say in the confines of the hospital. So I went in because I was like, well, know, and as an inpatient you're never on your own. Even through the night there's someone checking you every hour, every hour, the doors are always open, There's no privacy whatsoever.
Speaker 2:As I walked through those hospital doors, was like, I'm going do this and I'm going to do this once, and I'm never coming back. As naive as that was, it really pushed me forward. When I initially went in, I mean it's horrendous. You've got 10 people in a ward, completely isolated and all have similar issues. It's Was that
Speaker 1:that that strengths then, Just yourself as well? That shows a lot, that says a lot about you.
Speaker 2:And I think that I finally realised that at that point, that actually I was stronger than I'd ever given myself. Out of those 10 people, there's only six of us that are still alive and I'm one of them. And that's huge. And from that I decided that I was gonna do something that I really loved. So I started working at the age of 12, so being one of four, and I wanted nice things and I got a job.
Speaker 2:So I got a paper round at eleven and then I started working in a cook shop at 12. I loved buying myself clothes and at that point, because I was so small, I would actually unpick them and remake them and take them in and make them smaller. And that's where I was like, well actually, I quite like fashion and started moving into that sort of creative space. And when I went to college, that's what I did. I did art and fashion and I loved it.
Speaker 2:It was great for me because it was like my personality.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You clearly thrived at it as well, if you got distinction.
Speaker 2:I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And then I wanted to become a wig maker, which is really random. And this was when I was in hospital, because I'd been in and out of the commercial world. So I'd worked for really big organisations, but sort of doing PA kind of work.
Speaker 2:And I just thought, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't enjoy it. I don't see a career in it. So whilst I was in hospital, I applied to do an access course into special effects makeup and wig making. And what I loved about wig making is that the art was still the same.
Speaker 2:So what you can do by hand is still better than the machine and I loved that. I wanted to work, get a royal qualification, which means you can make royal wigs, which are court wigs. So you make loads of money from the aristocracy. And then there's a charity called the Little Princess Charity, but it's for wigs for children with hair loss diseases, such as cancer, which the NHS didn't fund. And I always had that drive to help and need to have that connection with offering a service.
Speaker 1:I love the contrast that you had your business head on in providing high end wigs like the royal wigs, then also giving back with it as well. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:And that's what I did. That was sort of my driver to get out of hospital and to have something to achieve. So I got out in the December and obviously it was still rocky. I was about eight stone at this point and I'm five'eight, so I was still underway. I still had to go and check-in every week and it was really hard work.
Speaker 2:But that was that. I was going to college and I achieved that, finished. And then I got into UCL. So it was only UCL and Edinburgh at the time that did the wig making course that I wanted to do. My parents earned quite well and I didn't want to see my parents struggle like they did when my sister went to uni.
Speaker 2:So I was like, okay. I deferred the place and then I found out I was pregnant. I've got obviously other health conditions due to sort of being ill for so long, but they had told me during this period that I probably wouldn't be able to have children. And at the age of 19, they had put me through a chemical menopause. Oh my god, wasn't sure.
Speaker 2:So I've got endometriosis and polycystic ovaries. So during this whole sort of really dark period, I was also on HRT, which I mean, anyone that's on HRT and is going through that is just horrendous. So there was all these sort of hormones and everything else. And I continued with that until just before my 20 birthday. Then I found out I was pregnant at 25.
Speaker 2:So I was meant to be starting- so this was December- I was meant to be starting at UCL the following September. So I thought, okay, I've got my makeup and I was working in makeup at that point, really crazy hours. So I was working both theatre and film and working for myself. I'm just gonna have to get a job because I can't keep on going in and out of London.
Speaker 1:There was was no very self employed, you wouldn't have got maternity leave or anything.
Speaker 2:No, no at all. I was like, Okay, I need to find myself a job. I had about eight weeks left on the contract that I was doing and it was really good money in comparison to these jobs that I was looking at that were sort of entry level jobs. I'd built myself up to a certain point and then I was almost having to step back down. So I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna do it.
Speaker 2:So obviously I went in and I showed very early because I was refeeding during my pregnancy as well. I was a high risk pregnancy and they were saying, You've only got fifty percent chance of you getting past the first three months. I was adamant that this baby was going be okay. And I got a job for Beaumont Photography, who do royal photography. They were doing royal photography at the time, but they also had an offset which was for school photography.
Speaker 2:So I didn't obviously tell them that I was pregnant. I went and got the job and my son's father, we had also set up a separate business. So I knew that I needed to bring work in and not just have one funnel because I was used to a certain wage and at this point I was not going to earn that. Thankfully I'd saved the last eight weeks of money, which was really good, but really challenging because unfortunately my son's father was very violent. That continued throughout the pregnancy.
Speaker 2:Once I had had Cayman, I was then a sole single parent at six weeks He was six weeks old. But I promised myself if it had happened again, then that was that. So I put a load of money into this business with him that obviously just then went to nothing. But I'd saved a certain amount of money. I knew I wasn't going to go back into the photography thing and it wasn't for me, but I did have a contract and I was meant to be working abroad when Cayman was 12 old.
Speaker 2:I had a child, thought, It's fine, because I was always going to naturally feed him or her, and I thought, Just take a nanny, it'll be fine. I'll take a nanny and it will all work out. Well obviously this child came along, it doesn't quite work like that, does it? And then I fell into construction. So my father was working for a company called Eurotech at the time, and I'd gone in to help him set up this printer or something.
Speaker 2:Anyway, turned out that he then got me an interview, which I didn't really realise was an interview. Never really understood what he was doing in great detail.
Speaker 1:I do think you do as a child though anyway, because you just see your parents as your parents, don't you? You don't appreciate they've got a job and what that is and another They
Speaker 2:don't go to work, you know? They
Speaker 1:don't they? Yes.
Speaker 2:It's like, Oh, okay, cool. I had this interview for this job that I had no idea what it was. I went into this two hour interview and didn't really know if I'd got it or hadn't. It just knew it was a nice conversation and I felt like I'd learnt something from it. That evening I got an email from him saying, and at this point Cayman was eight months old.
Speaker 1:Maybe that you would even go in for interviews, to be honest. I've got two kids, so I know what that feels like when they're supposed to say eight months old with all the sleep deprivation.
Speaker 2:And my child, I mean, was a difficult feeder, let's say. So he would just feed when he decided to, there was no light. So, know, didn't sleep, didn't do any of that that I thought he would by that point. But no, no, no. And I actually ended up feeding him till he was nearly three, which kept me healthy as well.
Speaker 2:That evening, I get an email from the MD of Eurotech basically saying, Tell me what hours you want to work and the wage you want and when And you can I'm still like, I don't really know what you do. This is interesting. But I knew that David Hedley was working with my father and I sort of went into this job sleep deprived, not really knowing what I was doing and clung onto David Hedley's shirt strings. So I would get some information from my father and I was like, okay. And then I'd go to David to regurgitate to actually press the simplifier.
Speaker 2:And David was like this sort of breath of fresh air. We're very similar age. So he was this very sort of shy, well presented, polite young man. And I was quite a frantic woman trying to just make it work. And I don't know how, but it became an obsession.
Speaker 2:Before I knew it, I was reading blueprints at night because I obviously wasn't sleeping because my child And didn't do such he gave me this book, in fact I've still got it behind me, which is like an engineering dictionary, because people would say these words to me on the phone and I'd just have to go along with it, I'd write them down and then be trying to find out what they actually meant. And it did, it became this obsession. And then they took me to a site because I still didn't know, I
Speaker 1:couldn't work out exactly what we did. What intangible, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I went to this site and I can still remember the first time I saw a building being lifted. And I was like, wow, okay, this is what we do. So this now actually makes sense. And just asking all these questions, and I probably annoyed the life out of them, but just asking multiple questions to understand. I remember walking away that day, and partially because of all of the obsessive research I'd done, the information I'd got both from my father and David, and then these guys on-site, I was like, God, they over complicate this, don't they?
Speaker 2:It's such a man's world, because actually this is so simple. What we're doing is so simple. You've just over complicated it with really difficult words that no one understands to charge more money. I get it. And that was it.
Speaker 2:So that was eleven years ago. And then before I knew it, so I was six months in and had my first promotion. And for the next two years after that, doubled my wage year on year and was absolutely obsessed. It was almost like, obviously when you're a single sole carer of a child, it's amazing and it's great, but it was just my bit that was me that I could put everything into. And before that used to be my eating disorder, that was who I was.
Speaker 2:And suddenly I had an identity that wasn't that. And I think it was the first time in my adult life that I had that as well. Then I started to grow the business and we went from strength to strength and I was moving up. But the one thing that I did struggle with is that there was no females in senior management. So it was all male led.
Speaker 2:I was the lowest paid across the board, but gave the most. And it was hard. Mean, I stayed there and I absolutely loved what we did because it's so simple and the method and the process is so much simpler than the alternatives. There was that helping aspect, there was the design aspect, and then it kept me engaged because I could see how huge the business opportunity was as well.
Speaker 1:What was the job day to day? What was it?
Speaker 2:So initially I was in internal sales, And then I went into process engineering, which for me, can close my eyes and see the way in which I think a process should go. It just falls into place. So then I engineered a load of processes that went out globally. Then I went into a technical role. I was meant to be promoted to a commercial director role.
Speaker 2:And two weeks before, so everything had been set up, it was all ready to go. And we were just negotiating on a couple of the fees, because I wasn't impressed with the fact that I was going be paid £20,000 than a male counterpart doing so. It then went to a male counterpart, just like that. And they said that I didn't have enough experience. I was the most experienced person there, but I didn't have letters after my name.
Speaker 2:And no, I don't have letters after my name, but test me and I can get those letters after my name. And it was really challenging and That hit me really hard because I'd worked eight and a half years at this point to get to that role. I was sort of stagnant and a bit bored of what I was doing at that point. That was the next step, and as far as I was concerned, I've got it. It was mine.
Speaker 1:And that's it was
Speaker 2:It was awful. I plummeted. I became really ill very quickly. And for the first time since being a mum, was off for three months. And it was a really, really dark place for me.
Speaker 2:So much so that I actually collapsed at Beaconsfield Services when my heart just couldn't take it. I had been healthy, well healthier. I lost four stone in that three months period and just hit rock bottom. But actually in the darkest of places, you are your own brightest light. And I picked myself back up and decided that actually that wasn't the place for me any longer.
Speaker 2:I spent over nine and a half years there and it was no longer for me. It took me another year before I left and I decided enough was enough and I left. The reality is that, no, I wasn't paid enough and I probably still won't be paid the same as my male counterparts. I know that. However, I don't have letters after my name, so I will gain those letters.
Speaker 2:So this year I'm going to be doing my CABE, so my chartership for building. I looked at it and thought, God, this is so easy. Why didn't I do it before? Because I know all the information, I've got the knowledge, but I don't have the confidence because I know that I'm not great in exam environments. But that's why it'll be good for me because a lot of it is just practical.
Speaker 1:And you've learned all the practical stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, And I mean here at Maymark, so I interviewed for all of the sort of competitors, but I didn't want to go into the same, almost toxic environment for women, because it can be challenging and you've got to be quite strong in And certain you've got to be able to stick up to yourself. And that's wrong, absolutely. But there's gonna always be challenging companies that have gotta catch up with the times, and they absolutely do. There's also the complete polar opposite of that in every industry. I think construction is great for women.
Speaker 2:I think there's obviously, there's still a gender pay gap that needs to be met, but I do also think that's the reason why to come into it. Because they will have to bridge that at some point. We shouldn't still be talking about this in this day and age.
Speaker 1:I know, I know.
Speaker 2:But it will get better, and it massively is. Mean, in the time that I've worked in construction engineering, it's changed. It's changed a hell of a lot and it will continue to do so. And I don't want to put people off coming into the industry because I think we need more women and men do try and over complicate what we do, because actually it really is quite simple in most times. You just don't know the tricks.
Speaker 2:You haven't been taught them. We need
Speaker 1:more That's women so interesting to try that you've said that, because I've never heard anyone say that before, that actually, yeah, it doesn't need to be that complicated. This all a sudden intimidates people, doesn't it? So then women don't go into it because they don't feel part of the conversation or the club.
Speaker 2:100. No one tells you when they're blagging it. I mean, they're not going go, well, I wasn't really sure that was going to work, but it did! They just give it a go. And yeah, the last five years, I think, actually, people have over complicated.
Speaker 2:Every single job I've been in, they've over complicated it through fear of losing their job. Whereas if we share that knowledge across the board, then actually everyone's better off. And it is so simple, most of the things that we do, as long as you know those tricks and the basic understanding, it's not that hard.
Speaker 1:Where do you think your drive comes from? Because just in talking to you, you seem very self sufficient.
Speaker 2:My biggest driver, and over the last nearly twelve years, has been my son. I am the breadwinner. I am mum and dad. And yes, I had a choice to just go to you know what, I'm not going to do this. It's too much.
Speaker 2:Why would I do that?' I've got to show him how to be an adult, how to be a good member of society. I want him to look back and think Jesus my mum did that. Not Not because anyone
Speaker 1:In several different ways. Do you think there's anyone in your career or school perhaps who you felt seen by?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was a teacher called Ben Bolt. He saw me as a person. He saw me as Freya and he would take me off when I was having my moments. And then following on from that, when I went to college, I was really into optical illusion art. And the piece that I got a distinction on was about a lift.
Speaker 2:And this lift, I printed my own wallpaper and the lift was my life. So every time that I thought I was getting off the lift and was recovering, I wasn't, it was just that it stopped before I plummeted again. And at the back of this lift was me nude, pretty much bones and shattered mirrors around me. And I got a distinction for that and that was shown for quite a while. He was like, You do understand that everyone related to that.
Speaker 2:They understood. That's why it stayed for so long because it was so powerful. And then I suppose from a construction point of view, David Hedley has been a real inspiration to me and to watch him through his career. And he's just such a genuine bloke, you know? And I know that I can go to David, even just ask a basic question.
Speaker 2:Doesn't judge me and straight away he perverse or belittling or difficult. I just had a normal conversation with him and I was like, Yeah, can work with you. I do feel comfortable to be me.
Speaker 1:What does the future hold for you then? You're gonna do the engineering qualification now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I want to do that over the next twelve months. I want to push into Europe. I want to bring more women into the industry. So I've brought Darianne into my team here in The UK, and I want to develop her. So I would like to develop more women.
Speaker 2:Still, there's not that many, and we seem to be exiting the industry quicker. And to be honest, I would really like to see the employers start to pay women fairly for maternity. But I think to bring women into the industry, we really need to highlight some key benefits. And one of those is always going to be flexibility around family.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Again, that's part of your giving side isn't it? That you want to give back and you want to open up those doors for women to come into the industry and encourage them and mentor them and develop them. Going back to your art, do you still do art now? You you still write poetry?
Speaker 2:I still write poetry. My poetry is always quite dark. It's a way of-
Speaker 1:Because it's an outlet for you though.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I make things just randomly. So I make my own skincare- Wow. Because I'm quite paranoid about the stuff- again, an obsession- So about the stuff that goes into skincare as well as food. But yeah, no, I still do a lot of crafting.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, usually to finish the podcast, I ask somebody for a book or a podcast recommendation, but I feel like that would be slightly wasted on you because I just feel like you should be recommending something different, like a book of poetry or a poet or an artist or like a skincare recipe that you want to recommend.
Speaker 2:So if I'm honest with you, there's a lady on Instagram called my mate Ginger Kate. She's an absolute legend. So a lot of my skincare recipes started with her a few years ago. Really simple, really cheap, and she's just so knowledgeable, so I started with her. From Podcasts, I really love the diary of a CEO.
Speaker 2:He has some great people on, interesting topics. So yeah, I do listen to that. And then Bridget Riley is an artist that I absolutely love.
Speaker 1:Love it, obviously. Thank you so so much for your honesty today and for being so open because I appreciate some of the things that you've talked about would have probably been quite difficult to voice and talk about. So thank you so so much and hopefully you've inspired some people who are listening to just give things a go and drive and push for things and find your niche in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think to be honest with you, don't let your younger years or who you think you may be stop you from being who you can be, because you can always redevelop. You can always come and change and develop yourself into whoever you want to be. Don't cut yourself off.
Speaker 1:Thank you so, so much for your time today. It's been amazing speaking to you.
Speaker 2:Thank you.