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Matt and Sean talk about a new material we might see in solar panels, and Matt’s invasion on Hank Green.
Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, Why This Solar Breakthrough Matters More Than Perovskite https://youtu.be/F_OPrOpccJs?list=PLnTSM-ORSgi7uzySCXq8VXhodHB5B5OiQ
Matt and Sean talk about a new material we might see in solar panels, and Matt’s invasion on Hank Green.
Watch the Undecided with Matt Ferrell episode, Why This Solar Breakthrough Matters More Than Perovskite https://youtu.be/F_OPrOpccJs?list=PLnTSM-ORSgi7uzySCXq8VXhodHB5B5OiQ
Follow us on X: @stilltbdfm @byseanferrell @mattferrell or @undecidedmf
Undecided with Matt Ferrell: https://www.youtube.com/undecidedmf
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Creators and Guests
What is Still To Be Determined?
Join Matt Ferrell from the YouTube Channel, Undecided, and his brother Sean Ferrell as they discuss electric vehicles, renewable energy, smart technologies, and how they impact our lives. Still TBD continues the conversation from the Undecided YouTube channel.
Sean Ferrell: Today on Still To Be Determined, we're talking about. What's that? Was that Perovskite in the background crying? Aw. Today we're talking about a new contender that might be challenging perovskite in the future. Yes, that's right. We've been talking about perovskite every other week for three and a half years, but now we're going to talk about something else. Welcome to Still to be Determined. This is the podcast that follows up on topics from Undecided with Matt Frell. I am not Perovskite. No, I am not Matt Ferrell. I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm his brother. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi, I write some horror, write some stuff for kids. It sounds like I write a lot. I guess I do. Anyway, with me, as always, is the aforementioned Matt. Matt, how are you today?
Matt Ferrell: I'm doing really well. Are you bracing and not to talk about weather to everybody, but there's a massive storm hitting the United States, across most of the United States that's going to dump a ton of snow. Are you ready, Sean? Are you ready?
Sean Ferrell: I mean, many of our newer viewers and listeners may be scratching their heads and saying, how come these guys never talk about the weather? What? They never bring it up. They never chat about it.
Matt Ferrell: That's what they're asking themselves.
Sean Ferrell: That's what they're asking themselves. Well, a few years ago, Matt and I used to open this program saying, hey, what's. How's it going? And inevitably, we would talk about the weather, and people in the comments were like, why are you guys always talking about the weather? Stop talking about the weather. So we stopped. This is different.
Matt Ferrell: I was gonna say for. Yes, well, this is a different storm, but also it's. For me, it's like bad timing. I'm supposed to be going out on Monday morning to the Boston area to go see something that Microsoft is doing.
Sean Ferrell: I don't think they're going to do it and I don't think they're going to go, yes.
Matt Ferrell: Oh, I can tell you I'm most likely not going. I'm kind of disappointed because I was hoping to see it. So it's like I'm trying to work out with them if they're going to do this little demonstration at a different time or not,
Sean Ferrell: because, yeah, the timing sounds really bad. For people who wonder about our shooting schedule. Yeah, we're shooting this at the end of the week, right before, like, literally this. The weather patterns are going to be changing today, and we're going to start seeing A dumping of for huge portions of the country. Freezing rain. Apparently, there's extreme concerns about freezing rain through the south, through Appalachia. I've been Ryan Hall, y'all. I mean, I know that you pay attention to Ryan. Shout out to the Ryan Hall, y'all fans. The latest I saw from him was saying, we're going to be going live with this storm and we'll be live as long as I'm not sleeping. Which I thought to myself, I'm so glad Matt and I don't have that shooting schedule. Can you imagine if we were like, well, we're going to start talking now about technology and we're not going to stop. If we're awake, we're going to talk about it. No. Thank you. Well, to everybody. By the time this drops, the storm will have been behind us all. So I hope everybody has weathered the storm safely. So it's like past Sean wishing future you well. That's weird. Anyway, we're going to be getting into it. Matt's most recent, which talks about a recent breakthrough, which may point to, I say recent breakthrough, as you point out in your video. This is yet again another case of they've known about this for years, but they didn't know how to do it. Now maybe they're figuring out how to do it, which is something that's not perovskite. That could improve solar cell efficiency in a way that makes perovskite look like, well, thanks for showing up, but we don't need you. Which is weird because it's been nothing, but perovskite is coming. Thank God for perovskite. And then I watched your most recent, and you were literally like, yeah, yeah, we don't really need that anymore.
And I was like, some of them.
Matt Ferrell: I didn't. I didn't say that.
Sean Ferrell: You did say that. You said, you know, who sucks perovskite? More like suckskite. Anyway, before we get into our conversation about that, we're going to talk about our most recent, which is episode 291. There were some people jumping into the comments in regards to the donut battery, electric vehicle. Who is it? Where are they? What are they doing with it? Is it truly solid state? We're going to get into that. Matt and I had a conversation about all of this. It felt like it was very of the moment, the donut breakthrough. Matt having just been to the conference and seeing it and all the head scratching that was going on. A lot of you in the comments are really on top of not only our conversation. But other YouTubers. And it was really interesting to see people bringing in links to other people who think they may have in fact figured out what Donuts Solid State is. So we'll get into that. But to start us off, there was this from Dean McManus who talked about. Matt, you were scratching your head for a moment, like which motorcycle manufacturer was it that was teeming with Donut? Dean jumps in to say Verge EV Motorcycles was the partner company you were alluding to. Verge Motorcycles came out in 2018 and shut off innovative hubless in wheel motors last year at CES. Donut Lab is a subsidiary of Verge Motorcycles. The other partner contributor to this is likely Nordic Nano, who has much of the scientific experience and technologies that Donut Labs technology is based on. And. And he's one of two people who point to another YouTuber who claims they may have figured out what this is. We'll move into that right away. Which is Darth Sirius jumped in saying, I'm sure you guys are aware by now. But the Ms. Go Electric team put out their investigation to the Donut Labs product. And it absolutely puts Ryan from Ziroth’s examination to shame. Haha. With all the massive mountains of salt taken, it makes it seem like it's much more of a real product. So to talk quickly about the Donut suggestion that they're actually there and the cagey ness with which they were talking, as you pointed out, it didn't seem cagey in a we're not gonna. We're not really doing this sort of way. But it was kind of. We're not ready to drop full details yet. Have you seen any of these other YouTubers? Have you seen Ms. Go? What did you think about their coverage and what do you think about the discussion that they're having?
Matt Ferrell: It popped up on my feed probably when it popped up on Darth Sirius's feed as well. So I watched that video too. I wouldn't say it puts Ryan's to shame because you have to put things in context. Ryan literally put that video out while he's at CES. He woke up in the middle of the morning and was like, I gotta make a video. He made the video. So his was kind of a hot take trying to do on the fly digging while at the show. And for that I think he did a fantastic job on that video. Ms Go Electric has a team helping and they came out many days later and so they had more time and spent more time doing their digging. I still think there's more, there's more shoes to drop in the investigation on this, because I'm doing my own digging with my team and. And we're finding interesting things, too. So it's like this is a story that is, like, still currently very much unfolding.
Sean Ferrell: So.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, but I have seen this video. It's a very good video. It's definitely worth watch.
Sean Ferrell: Do you think we're seeing the natural evolution of nerds who grew up in the 80s playing where in the World is Carmen Sandiego to now investigating breakthroughs in battery technology and trying to figure out where, what, how, when, like, putting all those pieces together. Because as all of you scramble about and you're like, he was at CES and he put together a video. She's got a squad and she's looking into it. Over here. I have my team, and I'm suddenly like, what a bunch of nerds we all are. We're all. Do you think this is an evolution of where in the world is Carmen? San Diego? Yes or no? Answer the question. Don't wait for the translation.
Matt Ferrell: Yes.
Sean Ferrell: Thank you.
Matt Ferrell: Thank you for that.
Sean Ferrell: Another comment from Tenkai, who says iFixit has an award ceremony every year for the products with the worst repairability. Two AI products shared first place. The smart open fridge was the ultimate winner, but the AI girl was the one that won the community vote. So I'm wondering, oh, my God. Were you aware of this award? And is this something at CES that you wish you could have given? Is there anything, if you had a blue ribbon for worst product idea. Let's call it that. Without naming a corporation. Was there a thingamabob doing thingamabobbies that you were just like, that's dumb. Why is that here.
Matt Ferrell: There's two, and they're both in the same vein. They were both water bottles. There was this water bottle, that had AI. A water bottle, that had AI, Sean, was it a water bottle?
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: With AI. Don't. Don't ask questions. Don't ask questions. There's no explanation. It makes no sense. The second one, Sean, was a company.
Sean Ferrell: I'm not going to name their name. No, I can't move on. I can't move on.
Sean Ferrell: What is it?
Matt Ferrell: But hold on, it gets weird. Sean. Okay, this second water bottle, it makes. It makes. I can't remember how they. Their marketing phrases it, but it's like super water. Basically, they're infusing. I'm going to put this in air quotes, extra hydrogen atoms into the water, which is beneficial for your health. Just. Just think, think, think about. Think that I want my Fire to burst into. I want my water to burst into flames. That's what I want. Inject some more hydrogen into it. Because guess what? H. H2O is H2O. You can't, you can't, you can't. You can't, you can't, you can't. It's like it's the most snake oil, snake oily thing I've ever seen. But anyway, yeah, the AI water bottle and the hydrogen water bottle.
Sean Ferrell: I. When you said the bottle has AI, I envisioned the bottle going, yeah. Psst, psst. Aren't you thirsty? Hey, hey. Are you thirsty?
Matt Ferrell: So if you want to know basically what they claim it does, it tracks how much water you're drinking because that's.
Sean Ferrell: Your drinking to remember to figure out.
Matt Ferrell: Correct. To figure out when you need to hydrate and makes recommendations about you need to hydrate. Now you. Here's something that I have. I feel thirsty, so I drink some water.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: I don't need an AI.
Sean Ferrell: There was recently an article about the recommendations for drinking water that recent research was pointing to. People are over hydrating and as a result, like their body, they just go to the bathroom more often because your body, believe it or not, can self regulate. And yeah, so the recommended the. The reporter then asked this researcher, so what would you recommend as far as hydration? And the researcher's response was, drink when you're thirsty. How many millions upon millions of dollars have been spent on research? And be like, yes, we have results. Drink when you're thirsty. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, finally this. And I first of all, thank you for this comment. Ryukagudesu. I don't remember why we didn't talk about it. I thought we might have, but maybe we did offline. But Ryu jumps in the comments and says.
Matt Ferrell: We may have talked about it offline.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah. He says nothing about the collaboration with Hank Green, talking about big deals. Sure, it was on Hank's channel, but having two of my favorite channels in one video together was a big deal for me. Ryu.
Matt Ferrell: Appreciate that.
Sean Ferrell: I'm so glad that Matt and Hank could be there for you in that way. That's really great that you enjoyed their conversation. I did as well. And yes, we didn't talk about this, but probably should have. Do you want to give a bit of a big picture? How did that all come together, your being a guest on Hank's channel?
Matt Ferrell: It started with a random email that I got that was said, Hank Green here, I'd love to talk to you about plastic recycling. And I did a double take of like, that can't be real. Yeah, that can't be real. This gotta be a scam. And so I took the email address, looked in it up a line. I was like, oh, oh, oh, that actually is Hank Green. So I wrote back. We made an arrangement to have a call, had a fantastic conversation. Really fun. Like, as soon as we got on the call with each other, we were kind of just kind of geeking out at each other. And Hank at one point was like, oh, my God, we should be recording right now and just hit record because we. We just immediately started kind of geeking out. So it was. It was a very fun chat. And he's exactly like you'd expect him to be. He's just an awesome, awesome dude. He's really cool, very friendly, very nice, insanely smart. But it was just. It just kind of. He just reached out and he just wanted to have a fun chat, as he put it. He liked talking, talking to smart people. Which I was like, I wouldn't put myself in that category. But I had just put out that video about the new plastic recycling stuff that had been kind of percolating. And he was, as he put it, getting extremely depressed as he was putting this video together about plastic recycling. Because there was nothing that was like a ray of sunshine. And he stumbled upon my video and was like, oh, thank God.
Sean Ferrell: Little.
Matt Ferrell: Little glimmer of hope. Which is why he reached out to me to talk to me.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, which is why he does what he does. It's why you do what you do is why we do what we're doing right now, which is there's too much information out there for anybody to get all of it. So by putting more stuff into more channels, hopefully this information gets out there. And it is easy to become very dispirited about the state of the world, because it seems like everything that we hear from mainstream media is the house is on fire, but we're gonna pretend it's not. And it's channels like yours and Hank's that are talking about, well, there are real problems, but what are we doing to fix it? There are smart people out there trying to do that. So it was a great interview.
Matt Ferrell: I was also joking with. I was also joking with my wife that not to put both of us down, Sean, but I referred to us, to Hank, as the B tier Green brothers. You got.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, I would say. I would say tier. Yeah, I would say C tier. Yeah, we're like. We're like the made for TV version of, like, if there's a movie about the movie stars.
Matt Ferrell: And we're the TV stars.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, we're the TV version. We're the. If you like that at the theater, these guys. These guys might be fun. So. And from our most recent, the best worst comment from Code Monkey, who writes to me, I believe, for April 1, can you say that you are Matt Ferrell? Yes, yes, Code Monkey. I will make a note. As of this April Fools, I will try to say that. So everybody who's watching this episode, pretend you didn't hear me say that. But thank you, Code Monkey, for the comment. On now to Matt's most recent. This is why this solar breakthrough matters more than perovskite. That's right. The rug's been pulled out from underneath perovskite. Take that, Perovskite. Hit the road. And don't let the solar panel hit you in the butt on the way out. So, Matt, how many kesterite videos can we look forward to making in the next, oh, four years? A million? One million videos?
Matt Ferrell: One million.
Sean Ferrell: The comments right out of the gate. Top comment for me from Ziff, who says, quote, a material you've probably never heard of. Me thinking, doubt it. Mechanical engineering and materials background. Pretty sure I've Kesterite. All righty then. Never heard of that. Indeed. Yeah, this.
Matt Ferrell: That's great.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, I thought that was terrific. And you say in your video, like, a lot of the stuff around solar panels, so much of this is so old. What was the year of the first solar panel?
Matt Ferrell: Oh, Sean, it goes back over 100 years. It's like, it's. It's actually. Let me look. Look up really quick. 1883.
Sean Ferrell: Right? 1883.
Matt Ferrell: 1883.
Sean Ferrell: Were they making electricity? Yeah, they used it to make electricity. To do what?
Matt Ferrell: It was the first selenium solar cell. Coated it with gold. Sean. It was coated with gold.
Sean Ferrell: Yes. Now, I want to make a story about, like a great train robbery, but what they're trying to steal is a gold plated selenium solar panel. I don't know. So kesterite lurking in the background.
Matt Ferrell: Yes.
Sean Ferrell: The one thing holding it back was, why did everybody lean into perovskite before they leaned into kesterite?
Matt Ferrell: It's kind of like any advancement. It's like one of them is easier to do than the other. And perovskite. Making perovskite is. I wouldn't say easier because they're still working on a lot of the kinks. But it's like, that's been the topic.
Sean Ferrell: Of our videos is like there's this thing if they could just get a hold of it. But it's tricky. It requires all these little moving parts to do. And it's like, is that crack? Is that. Is that true of Kesterite? And Kesterite was sitting there just going like, you could be making me, and I'm not quite as toxic and maybe I'm a little more efficient, but nobody's paying attention to poor Kesterite.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, I mean, when you make the Kesterite, the problem is it's got lots of imperfections. And trying to figure that out to make it consistently is where perovskite. They figured out a lot of that, which is part of the reason why it's toxic, because they're using lots of lead and things like that, because it helps with the manufacturing of the perovskite cell. So it's like they are trying to figure that out on the kestrate side, which is why it's been lagging behind. So I think that's the big thing. It's like, which, you know, perovskite, we can actually figure out how to use basically an inkjet printer and print this onto a surface. And, hey, we have a solar cell that works where kestrate. They're still trying to figure out how to get it to that kind of a stage. They're just lagging behind.
Sean Ferrell: Is there anything in the research that you saw that indicates the path might end up following perovskite, which might make all of this just kind of academic? Like, oh, the process we've been using for perovskite also works for kesterite, therefore.
Matt Ferrell: Oh, I'm not going to take a guess at that.
Sean Ferrell: You didn't see it. There's basically your answer that is, no, you didn't see anything in the research indicate that.
Matt Ferrell: No, I did not. I did not see anything that made like, oh, there's a clear path over here that could follow perovskite. It's like, I didn't see anything. My team didn't see anything that would have indicated that. No.
Sean Ferrell: David T. Jumps into the comments to say this isn't uncommon in science. Throughout history, a technology that is on the verge of breaking out gets leapfrogged by another unforeseen one. So there's a possibility that could happen here. We're not. I mean, we're not prognosticators. We're not giving stock advice. We're not saying, like, find your local kestorite dealer and, and, and buy, buy, buy.
Matt Ferrell: But no, no, no.
Sean Ferrell: All things that you saw in your research would you. Would you say that you do see kesterite at a stage that is eerily familiar with where perovskite was previously?
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: And you're like, yeah, if everything plays out the way it did before, five, ten years from now, we will definitely have these cells.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah. If you go back 10, 15 years, it's like, it feels like what perovskite was then. So it's like if you fast forward 10, 15 years from now, it might be where perovskite is right now.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: Or maybe it's a little further ahead. Well, it's like it's. If I was going to prognosticate, that's what I would say. But to kind of circle into why I made the video was, I look at perovskite as kind of like a Solar 2.0. It's kind of the next evolution of where solar is heading. And I was just asking myself, like, what is Solar 3.0? Which is when I came across kesterite, and I was like, oh, didn't know that was a thing, and so kept digging in, and that's when I decided to make a video about it. So I see this as the next evolution, which is going to be a decade or two away. So it's definitely way down the road, which is also why I come back to say this is not going to kill perovskite. Perovskite is going to be a thing. It's going to definitely be a very predominant player in the market in the future. But it's like this other one that's waiting in the wings could end up becoming very appealing because it could theoretically potentially be cheaper, it could be just as efficient or better. And then, of course, you sidestep all the toxicity issues that you have with, like, lead in the perovskites.
Sean Ferrell: Does that also make them. You've talked and we've talked about recycling of solar panels. Does the kesterite model potentially look like it's easier, or do you think that that's kind of. That all comes out in the wash? Because we're currently at a state where recycling is achieving levels of growing success. So that. That becomes less and less of a. Oh, that's the ultimate goal.
Matt Ferrell: I think it's going to be a little bit of a wash. Like, I don't think it's like kesterite's easier to recycle than perovskite. It's more of. It's going to be safer to recycle than perovskite because it doesn't have These highly toxic materials in it. So it will be. Imagine like the recycling facilities that would be recycling those kind of things. You have to. There's certain precautions you have to take so that you don't get. You don't poison your workers, right? So it's like, because you're tearing up the panels, so it's like with something like kesterite, that becomes less of a concern than it would be with something like perovskite. So it's like, that's the only difference I really see in it for recycling it, because one's not better than the other in terms of that.
Sean Ferrell: And you've also talked about the longevity of panels. This seems to me like this would be the natural evolution in. Corporations are always going to want to innovate because they want to introduce a new product that they can say, oh, this is the brand new shiny toy. And yeah, it's going to cost you a lot right out of the gate because it's so brand new and it's so good. So that there would be motivation on the part of the corporations making these things to have that new thing in 15 years when they can no longer innovate on panels that are being designed today. So this, this new material, the ability to slap a new name on the packaging to help sell them is going to be beneficial. But nothing about this means that we won't have perovskite panels out in the world, because the ones that are being made today are going to be working in the next 30 years, 40 years, they'll be out there and they'll be in the secondary market, potentially, but they'll still be out there and working.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, exactly. It's like when you're talking about solar panels, you're talking about decades and decades that these things will be in service. So it's not like it's going to be a turnover like somebody flips a switch. It's going to be a slow, gradual evolution.
Sean Ferrell: And just for fun, to go back to David T's comment talking about leapfrogging of technologies, can you think of another recent example of a technology that came out and leapfrogged? The one that everybody was anticipating was the thing people saying, like, oh, here it comes, we're just five years away and then suddenly, boink, something shows up and like, oh, never mind. We found this instead.
Matt Ferrell: Not in the sustainability space, nothing's jumping to mind, but this is not a great analogy. But like in consumer tech, I can think of, like the evolution of DVDs, like when we went to Blu Ray and there was HD DVD. There was these two competing high 4K formats. And they both came out the same time. And it was clear, like, beta versus vhs. One of them's going to die, One of them's going to win. It's like, which one's going to win? And then it's like, okay, Blu Ray, it's the winner.
Sean Ferrell: Wow.
Matt Ferrell: We got streaming, so Blu Ray is going to go nowhere. Yeah, it's kind of like, all right, Blu Ray's the.
Sean Ferrell: We all bought Blu Rays for like one week end. Yeah, it was like. It was like I just bought this and I also hooked up my computer to my television and never mind.
Matt Ferrell: Physical media. Who needs physical media?
Sean Ferrell: Another comment from the community in your, in your audience that I'm always amazed by the big brains on Brad. Here it comes. Michael Sertion, who says, wow, that substrate holder at 33 seconds is my design. It's rewarding to see something I worked on contribute to progress, even if it is a small step that might be a dead end. Wow. Okay. Somebody's just out there like, here's this thing and it's part of this massive research project. Okay. Congratulations, Michael.
Matt Ferrell: Very cool. Very cool. Nice flex.
Sean Ferrell: William jumps in to say, I love the virtuous cycle. The more money spent on solar, the more money spent on solar research panels get more efficient, costs go down. More money is spent on solar. Yeah. Would you say right now it feels like that is the cycle we're in and we could start seeing like the adoption curve. Does it get steeper as you move forward in time? You recently talked about more electricity being made via solar than at any time previously in history. Does that record get broken next year and the year after? Do we continue to see that curve spike?
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, that's the stage we're in right now. It's like if you look at the reports of how much solar is being added every year, it's kind of like, don't quote me on this, but it's almost like it's doubling. And so it's like, we're going to be this year will break records from last year and then 2027 will break 2026. It's like it's going to keep going because we're in that hockey stick, huge adoption curve right now because solar is the cheapest form of electricity generation in the world, full stop. Not even talking about subsidies, which you can make the argument for. Then we don't need subsidies anymore. And in some cases that's true. But it's like the industry is now it's not mature, but it's definitely past the point of Will this actually become a thing? It's like it is here. It's going to keep becoming more and more of a thing. And I love the virtuous cycle comment. I love that Will's comment because it's like this is what we were hoping for. Yeah. What I was hoping for for the past couple decades is that solar would get to this point where it could stand on its own two feet and an entire industry would shape up around it. I don't want to get on my soapbox about like the big beautiful bill and all the stuff that is happening in the US with kind of stuff back to try to bring coal back and try to support the natural gas industry. There are more people working in the solar industry than the natural gas industry than the coal industry. It's like it is the one of the largest areas for employment for R&D, for all of this stuff. It's, it's undeniable at this point.
Sean Ferrell: So, yes, 100% here's hoping that people wiser than us can make decisions that make sense in that regard.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: Finally, the best worst comment on this episode. Question man jumps in. I think this is worthy of being on a bumper sticker. Question man quote, I'm impatient right now is my new catchphrase. Yes, Question Man. Yes, I'm impatient right now as well. Listeners, jump into the comments. Let us know what you thought about this discussion. Was there anything that you were hoping we would talk about that we missed? Or is there something we said that you wanted to push back on? We look forward to hearing what you have to say. And as always, the comments really shape not only this program, but they help inform Matt's main channel, Undecided. If you'd like to support the show, commenting, liking, subscribing, sharing with your friends, those are all very easy ways for you to support us. If you'd like to support us more directly, you can go to stilltdb.FM and click the Become a supporter button. Or you can click Join right here on YouTube. Either way, it throws coins in our heads. We enjoy the welts. And then we get down to the heavy, heavy business of figuring out what's the next thing that's going to replace the last thing we talked about. Thank you for joining us, everybody. We'll talk to you next time.