Chas Moore - March 2025

What is Racism on the Levels?

Explore how the social construct of race and racial oppression operates at multiple levels with a rotating focus on different social systems. Connect with Austin-area justice movement organizers and everyday people with relevant lived experience to lay out historical context, current affairs, and creative possibilities for a liberated future.

Stacie Freasier: 00:05

Greetings, y'all. You are tuned in to racism on the levels here on Co op Radio ninety one point seven FM k o o p dot o r g. My name is Stacy Frazier. I am the creator and host of this show. And since August 2022, I've had amazing local community builders, movement folks coming in here and talking to me about their story and how this pervasive multilevel epidemic that is racism persists and how we get free from it.

Stacie Freasier: 00:48

The views expressed here are not necessarily those of the co op board of directors, staff, volunteers, or underwriters. I am sitting here today with Chaz Moore. Welcome to the show.

Chas Moore: 01:00

No. Thank you for having me.

Stacie Freasier: 01:03

So Chaz, tell us a little bit about who you are.

Chas Moore: 01:07

Yeah, I'm Chaz Moore. I am, you know, born and raised in Houston, Texas. I've been in Austin now nineteen years. Again, Chaz Moore, born and raised in Houston, Texas, the son of Pamela Dale Moore and Leon Moore, grandson of Ella Mae Pettit and Lee Pettit. And my mom passed away when I was seven in 1995.

Chas Moore: 01:35

And my dad was incarcerated until I was 18. So I was raised by my grandparents, which is probably a whole another podcast in itself. And then my grandfather passed away when I was 13. So and and, know, he was bedridden. He had got hurt at work and did his best in in in rearing a a child.

Chas Moore: 01:57

And typical, I think Southern upbringing, especially when I'm raised by a grandmother from Louisiana who was born in 1935 was, you know, all the things I was, and I didn't realize it at the time, right? I was poor, we was super poor. I don't know about super poor, but we were poor and experiencing all these things because of, you know, racism and all that type of stuff. But I didn't find it out until I got to high school when, you know, I was a straight A, well straight AB student. And then at the age of 17, my senior, going into my senior semester, I was convicted of a felony crime because I was just with the wrong folks at the wrong time.

Chas Moore: 02:47

Literally that's what a judge told me. I had never been in trouble, like not legal trouble. And it was this group of folks, maybe about 10 to 12 of us. And the only logic that I'm still coming up with today at 37 years old is that I believe that the group of men that I was involved with at that time figured because we had a little bit more resources and money than them. Like, Chaz can take the fall because I was the least of the culprits out of this situation for sure.

Chas Moore: 03:22

And, you know, long story short, a judge told me, I know you didn't do this. I I know you didn't do what you're accused of. And I know you're a pretty good kid, but I wanna teach you a lesson, which at the time, you know, I'm like, okay, cool. I didn't really understand collateral consequences at the time. Right?

Chas Moore: 03:41

So this judge's idea of teaching me a lesson was eight years probation every weekend of my senior spring semester in Fort Bend County Jail, and then two months in jail following graduation. So I graduate immediately the day after I had to go turn myself into Fort Bend County Jail. And then the day I got out of Fort Bend County Jail, And you know, I think that summer of high school graduation is like so important, right? I didn't get to say goodbyes and all this type of stuff. And I didn't get to go to prom.

Chas Moore: 04:15

That might be like some of the reason why I'm slightly so angry all the time. But the day I got out, I had one day before I moved down to Austin, things just happened. So you take a little bit of that, my experiences at UT, the experiences that my grandmother, grandfather, aunties and uncles tell me, and just what I've known to be American history and here we are.

Stacie Freasier: 04:46

Yeah, thank you. How long did you serve time? Like how long were you?

Chas Moore: 04:51

I was just in jail for two months, which I think is long enough for a seventeen year Well,

Stacie Freasier: 04:59

two parallels. I was also arrested at 17 years old. I was skipping school and drinking and driving, up to Austin with a friend. I was also like you, AAB student, National Honor Society and all that.

Chas Moore: 05:16

Yeah, all of it, yep.

Stacie Freasier: 05:17

And then the timing, like you said, it was the worst possible timing. And I ended up with a deadly conduct misdemeanor, it's the class A, I believe, which is the one that cannot be seal luric sponge. And for years and years and years I carried around that like, am I gonna get this job because they're gonna find this on my record and everything. And so in that way I share that to say, one, wow, we were both 17 in that experience. You know, we share that experience.

Stacie Freasier: 05:47

And B, like, I'm a white woman, so you know, probably could've been way worse for me.

Chas Moore: 05:53

Oh for sure.

Stacie Freasier: 05:54

And also my grandmas raised me because my parents were teenagers when they had me. My mom was 16. And so the role of grandparents, they were my saving grace. So did you know both your sets of grandparents?

Chas Moore: 06:08

No, my dad's parents, I think his mom passed away the same year I was born. And I, the grandparents that raised me were my mom's parents. Grandma is from like Opelousas Palmetto, Louisiana. And then my grandpa was from like Wharton, Texas or something like that. So no, I didn't know my dad's parents.

Chas Moore: 06:31

Or I mean, I just, you know, they passed away.

Stacie Freasier: 06:33

Yeah. Mentioned you went to UT. So how did that come about? How did you How did that opportunity arrive?

Chas Moore: 06:42

Yeah. So, because I was I graduated number 31 out of a class of 46 and that's when we had top 10 and like nobody was tripping about it.

Stacie Freasier: 06:51

So Yes.

Chas Moore: 06:53

Yeah. I I had a lot of opportunities, but I I mean, I love Texas even though it's it's, it is what it is. And, you know, I had offers to go to like Miami, Howard, few other places, but you know, Texas was just down the street. You could still go to like a pretty prestigious school and it was just close to home, know? And I'm glad I picked it, you know?

Chas Moore: 07:18

I don't know if things would have worked, not worked. I don't, I just don't, I think things would have been different. Right. And I think Austin is special to me. I think Austin has allowed me to develop, I think a sense of servant leadership that I don't think I would have developed at like Miami or Howard or anything like that.

Chas Moore: 07:40

So, and I don't say that as a compliment to Austin, say that because Austin is like so jacked up. But yeah, you know, it's just, you know, I think everything happens for a reason and yeah, I think about it a lot. Like I think if I would've went to Howard or Miami or some places like that, I probably would have been just like rich or famous by now and not as focused on or, or, or not as rooted in like movement work and abolitionist theories and ideologies and things of that nature. But I think Austin has just allowed me to kind of just dive into it because of like what this city is, you know what I mean? So I don't know if that makes sense, but.

Stacie Freasier: 08:26

Absolutely. Your bubble could have been, here's how I make sense of that, could have been more protective and bigger in those other places. Racism in this city of this size is so visceral and entrenched and real and the displacement, you're needed in Texas.

Chas Moore: 08:48

Texas is so interesting that we do need people here. We need people to, to fight the good fight and be in movement spaces and have the conversations and have the tough dialogue and, you know, do the really draining, thankless, like tiring work. Because, you know, I just think if I go to Howard, which is a HBCU, like probably the HBCU. Yeah. Like I'm aware of these issues.

Chas Moore: 09:16

I know what's going on. We're definitely talking about it. Like we're in class talking about debating it. And, you know, DC also has its stuff. Right?

Chas Moore: 09:26

But I just think it's different when you sit in a place like Austin that claims to be one thing and has a lot of like good to do people, but it's just like, like, okay, yo, like it's just so interesting as opposed to kind of knowing about it, talking about it, but I'm still like deeply rooted around and in community as opposed to here, you know, it's just really not a safe place as a Howard would be, right? Yeah.

Stacie Freasier: 10:01

But you brought up something really important in that piece right there, because Austin is weird and liberal, and you see my air quotes, right? Because that's like this branded, identified, and I bought it, my younger self, right, because I'm from Corpus, small town outside of Corpus Christi, and I came up here at 18 in 1998. I also went to UT, and I didn't have an analysis on the pigmentocracy at that point. I did not have my anti black racism formed because I did not have that much exposure to black culture and black communities. There were some black families in where I grew up, but not many.

Stacie Freasier: 10:49

And so it wasn't till I left, I went out to California, and then New York, and then DC, and then Boston before coming back. It was my decade on the Northeast Amtrak Corridor that I developed my praxis today. And so I came back in 2021 to be close to my parents, right, to raise my son. And wow, I did not, I had changed so much in my understanding of racism that I was like, I was completely sheltered and disillusioned the first go round. And so I now have, you know, I appreciate leaving for a bit to learn and grow, and then come back and say like, hey y'all, this is not as build.

Stacie Freasier: 11:40

Like this is not it. And I'd love for it to be because I love Austin.

Chas Moore: 11:47

Yeah, and you know, Austin has the potential to be an example of what an aspiring anti racist city can look like, right?

Stacie Freasier: 12:02

Let's put a pause on that because we have to go to a quick break, and I wanna dive into that one. So we'll be right back. Thank you all for tuning in. You are listening to Racism on the Levels. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser.

Stacie Freasier: 12:19

I am sitting here with Chaz Moore, and we are really grateful for you to be spending your precious time listening to us and growing with us and being in movement and in community with us. Ninety one point seven FM, koop dot org streaming everywhere, and this show will be archived so you can share it with friends. So Chaz, right before first quarter of the show, were just getting to know each other, got your roots, your Houston roots, and then come to Austin and some of the adversity you faced in the criminal injustice system. And then we turn to talking about Austin and how Austin has the potential to be an anti racist city and a model for that. So tell me what's on your mind about that.

Chas Moore: 13:13

I mean, I just think, I think because a lot of people have also deeply dived into the idea that Austin is this progressive liberal place. I think that's why it's possible, right? Because you keep saying you're this thing and you truly believe it, but then people start calling you out on it. I think you kind of wanna like prove them wrong. Right?

Chas Moore: 13:43

So, and, you know, I just think there's a spirit about Austin in which we know we're not perfect, but I think we try to be, take that back. I think we want to be a place where everybody can like be happy and live and thrive and stuff like that. And I say want because I think that's more of an accurate word than try. I don't think we try very hard, but yeah. Like, I just I I think because of the the the the label that Austin has given itself and like politically speaking, we kinda we we do progressive things at least on a like policy legislative level to an extent.

Chas Moore: 14:28

But, yeah, I I just yeah. And I really don't have a rhyme or reason because I'm thinking of like the 1928 master plan. I'm thinking about like rapid gentrification. But like, there's still like this rhetoric that like, you know, we were weird and we're liberal and blueberry and red tomato soup. And I I just think that, again, because of that, like self proclaimed liberal label, it's just more of an opportunity to do it than, like, most other cities well, any other city in Texas for sure.

Chas Moore: 14:59

And then most other cities in, in the country. So, yeah, it's really just the fact that we have deemed us liberal, I think is something that we can use to our advantage to actually inspire to do that.

Stacie Freasier: 15:21

What do you think about some of the geographic hardlines that have not budged and actually are slipping over across that, you know, the highway. That was another structural racist move, to put the highway where it was. What is the bridge? Like do you see, like in terms of people and place and geography, like how do you think we can work on that to become less racist as a city?

Chas Moore: 16:01

Man, I think the hardest part in any self improvement is truly acknowledging that there's a problem, right? And I think by far that is often the hardest thing to do because one thing well, and it's kind of changing, which is scary, but most decent white folks, decent white people. And when I say white folks, I mean like white folks that still are deeply like battling with like this idea of like, they benefit from white supremacy or privilege and stuff like that. But even that group of people, they used to be offended by, you call them a racist, right? It would bring up all these emotions.

Chas Moore: 16:53

And now people just, like, I don't care. But which is scary. That's a scary place to be. Yeah. But I think that if Austin and the people in Austin, like the tech bros, like, you know, West Austin folks, Downtown Austin folks, I think if they could really accept that this city has caused so much harm to black people in particular and brown folks and working class folks.

Chas Moore: 17:29

And it's because of these systems that we cannot see, but are so deeply embedded into like our everyday way of thinking in life. Like that has to be the first step. But if we're walking around as a city, giving ourselves a pat on the back for like the very small things, but we're not actually being honest and sincere about how we got here, then it's just like, you know, okay, then we'll just keep talking. But step one of everything, like, you know, I did 75 hard, which is this year long workout regimen. And it starts out with seventy five days of two workouts a day, a gallon of water, 10 pages of a book.

Chas Moore: 18:21

Something is missing. Oh, and no alcohol.

Stacie Freasier: 18:24

And,

Chas Moore: 18:28

you know, I did the whole year. So it's like seventy five days and then three more sets of thirty days, like with breaks in between, it's a year. So I did the first seventy five days, no drinking. And then I was like, you know, I'm gonna do the whole thing, so I might as well just not, not pick it up. So, you know, a year comes around and I, I just didn't drink.

Chas Moore: 18:50

And, you know, now today I'm three years sober and I can contribute some of that to 75 hard, but part of that also too is like, I had to I like, when I was going through this process and being sober, I was like, man, I feel great. Like, I'm getting up. I'm I'm still late to everything, but I'm not as late. I'm not as sluggish.

Stacie Freasier: 19:13

You're doing 09:30AM show recordings.

Chas Moore: 19:16

Yeah. You know, like, which and this would have been possible three years ago. Right? Because, like, on a after a Wednesday night, like, I'm going downtown. No.

Chas Moore: 19:26

Yeah. It it it just wouldn't be possible. But even with that, you know, I had to sit with the fact like, man, I actually had a problem. I had a problematic relationship with alcohol, which is why I haven't got back in it. Right?

Chas Moore: 19:39

Just like, and will I ever drink again? Maybe. Because I think I'm old enough now to where I'm just like, man, I don't even wanna get like I was. Because I would drink like a fish. Like, I mean, I was I was good at it.

Chas Moore: 19:51

You know what I mean? But it's like, yeah, you know, okay.

Stacie Freasier: 19:55

You and me both.

Chas Moore: 19:56

Right. So, you know, was just like, okay, I actually had a problem with this. And the more I can accept that, the more I can like move forward and make the best decisions for me. But if we live in a city where we're parading around like, you know, South By is awesome and we're bringing in all this money, but like how many black and brown artists, how many artists that are native to Austin are actually benefiting from this? Right?

Chas Moore: 20:27

Like how many black mom and pop shops or, you know, just local businesses are actually benefiting from this conglomerate of a production that that you all bring down every year. Right? Like, so it's just and then, you know, we talk about Austin is, you know, one of the top, I think affordable cities, but like affordable for who? Right? It's just like all these little things that are again-

Stacie Freasier: 20:53

Yeah, I don't know about that one.

Chas Moore: 20:54

Like results of, again, these systems, racism, classism, and all these things. And it's just like, until we accept that we are these things, I just don't know how we can get better. And well, I won't say that because it's not about them, but I just think until we decide. And when I say we, I mean both as the city, like government officials and stuff like that, but also just we, the community. Like collectively we have to say, you know what?

Chas Moore: 21:25

We all love our city, which I think most of us do. Know, good, bad, and ugly. We love Austin, which is why we're here. But until we all sit down and say, man, like we have some problems, like for real. And it's because of racism, it's because of these things that we kind of glance over.

Chas Moore: 21:48

Then again, you know, things would just be the same. But again, I think the potential for Austin to right its wrongs, I think the potential for Austin to be radical in their approach of how to right those wrongs given the state government, I think it's there. Right? And again, I also think we don't necessarily need to I don't think we need to wait on city government. Like they have to be a part of it just because that's the way the structure works right now.

Chas Moore: 22:17

But yeah, it's gonna take all of us collectively to get this city back to what it think it is. Because I don't know if it's been that in a very long I

Stacie Freasier: 22:34

just came back, as you know Chaz, from a week in Alabama for the sixtieth anniversary of Bloody Sunday, one of the speakers reframed it for me. I think it was actually Warnock who said it. He said, you know, we're not making this country great again, we're making it greater. And so that's it, like making it greater. Yeah, because there have been cause issues that have just been rotting here, right?

Stacie Freasier: 23:03

And so, yeah, so I do believe we And there's a lot of room to make it greater, right? It can be much, much, much, much greater.

Chas Moore: 23:17

You know, I get what he was saying, but I don't even know if we've been great. Like, I think yeah. I get what he's saying, But I I disagree I disagree with both of these statements. Making making it greater and making it great again, which would imply that it's been great in the first place. Great.

Chas Moore: 23:42

And then I I think it's gonna be hard to ever be great just based on the origins of how this country is founded. Right? Like so but even before we get to great, how about we just make America decent? You know what I mean? Like like, how can we just start with

Stacie Freasier: 23:58

We're scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

Chas Moore: 24:00

Yeah. You know, I just

Stacie Freasier: 24:02

Live inhabitable.

Chas Moore: 24:04

Even that, right? Like, let's just make America okay, first and foremost, because it's never been that. And I'm I'm saying like, in terms of like, everybody can look around from different communities and perspectives and be like, okay, yeah, you know. But it's never been that. Yeah.

Chas Moore: 24:25

And again, that takes reconciliation, that takes reckoning, that takes hard truths, that takes reparations, that take all these things for somebody to be like, okay, you know, this started out really bad. We'll never be fully okay. But I appreciate the attempt to right wrongs.

Stacie Freasier: 24:50

Yeah.

Chas Moore: 24:51

Okay. We're getting there. Right? But to imply that this is the greatest country and we've been great is just like, no, that's only from one perspective. And it's probably, and it has been historically that of, you know, like white men, right?

Chas Moore: 25:06

Like so, so yeah, I would just say let's make America like just decent. Yeah. We haven't even been that, Like are there moments of great American ingenuity? Like absolutely on all spectrums of all walks of life, of all genders, of all colors. But collectively in totality, we have not even been decent.

Chas Moore: 25:33

It's pockets of decency, but like we have No, no. Because being decent means you have to at least be courteous and kind. And our story, the American story, the origin of it doesn't even start there. Right? So, and again, like until we fully acknowledge, like what's going on and who we've been and who we are and how we are, you can't be great.

Chas Moore: 25:58

It's impossible.

Stacie Freasier: 26:00

So I appreciate that.

Chas Moore: 26:02

Again, no diss to Warnock. Get what you were saying, but like, no. And I think words matter. One thing I learned from movement folks, particularly black queer folks, is that words are important, right? Take your time, sit with it before we just say things to get a talking piece.

Chas Moore: 26:25

Yeah.

Stacie Freasier: 26:25

And context matters too. Absolutely, In which that statement was made. It was in the historic Tabernacle Baptist Church, it was at mass meeting, it was primarily black folks in that room. And so, he was speaking to the greatness that is black America, and the sacrifices, so greater in that sense. So just to add a little bit of flavor to that.

Stacie Freasier: 26:48

I would be remiss if I did not say and give voice to Women's History Month as one of the other isms that exist is, well, sexism and the patriarchy. And, you know there were a lot of movement folks who were still working even within our space, movement spaces to redistribute power along the lines of hearing the voices of women. We are the mothers, we are the creators. So I'm ready for us to have equal footing and we don't yet.

Chas Moore: 27:34

Yeah, I agree. I don't know what else to say to, but yes, I agree.

Stacie Freasier: 27:37

I mean Cosine.

Chas Moore: 27:38

Yeah. Cosine. There's nothing for me to add to that. Yeah. You know?

Chas Moore: 27:42

And I think it's unfortunate, you know, like yeah. It's it's just unfortunate.

Stacie Freasier: 27:48

Yeah.

Chas Moore: 27:48

But, you know, I think I think it's slowly changing. Yeah. Way slower than one would expect. Or or maybe well, maybe that's not true. I think I think things are getting better though, very slowly.

Stacie Freasier: 28:06

I I maintain hope.

Chas Moore: 28:08

Mhmm. Yeah. You we have to.

Stacie Freasier: 28:09

Exactly. I wouldn't be sitting here with you in this room if I didn't have hope

Chas Moore: 28:13

that Yeah.

Stacie Freasier: 28:13

Either. That something else is possible. Mhmm. And I actually wanted to turn, if you're okay with it, to the role of spirituality and groundedness in what we're building and what, and as a way to, like what is the role of faith communities? Let's bring it back to Austin, What are the role of faith communities in Austin to dismantle racism and create an anti racist alternative?

Chas Moore: 28:46

I mean, I believe that they should be right in the mix. Mean, historically they've been, like historically the church has been a haven for movement, movement leaders. And, know, I I don't know what happened, particularly when you look at the civil rights movement and how imperative the church was in that, know, southern leadership and all that. But something happened and I don't know what that is. And then again, historically speaking from like a Christianity perspective, like Jesus was always kind of I think Jesus would have been in the movement.

Chas Moore: 29:32

Well, he he was the movement.

Stacie Freasier: 29:33

Yeah. Exactly. He he's a movement ancestor.

Chas Moore: 29:36

Yeah. Right. Like, so so it's I I I get confused when I don't see churches taking a stance that the person that the church is centered around would have. Right? Like or how misguided some of the stances of the church are, like, know, particularly when it comes to like queer folks and stuff like that.

Chas Moore: 30:02

Like churches will very quickly stand up to be like, oh, this is wrong and abomination. But you also have nothing to say about like how poor people are being treated, which Jesus loved poor people. You have nothing to say about how women are being treated, which Jesus loved women. So I'm just confused at how the church as a whole decides when they pick and choose how to use Jesus and or the Bible, right? Yeah.

Chas Moore: 30:37

Yeah, I mean, here in Austin, I would love to see more churches and not just black churches, but all churches get more involved politically outside of, because the only time I see churches come to city council is when they wanna support the police, right? Like I was so disappointed a couple months ago when these church leaders came up and said, you know, give the police union the money. And I was just like, what are y'all doing? You know what I mean? But I think that shows the disconnect from either church leadership and the community or that church as a whole in their community.

Chas Moore: 31:16

Right? Like, because again, I don't know if the makeup of Austin collectively allows a lot of working class people to attend church as much as I think they used to. Because like even this, you know, last weekend when I was in Houston, you know, I went to my grandma's church, my first in home church and yeah, like this is working class people, working class seniors for the most part, still getting up and going. And it felt like community, but I don't know if the big churches that we're thinking about in Austin is made up that way. Right?

Chas Moore: 32:02

Mean, because just Austin itself is like, it's expensive to live here. And so if people, yeah, if people are not bringing community into church with them, I don't know if the community is a part of that church in the first place or part of the church's programming or perspectives or their own political ideologies. Like, I'm not too sure, but I would love that the church has stepped up more outside of supporting police. That's the only time they stand up. So it's just like, okay.

Chas Moore: 32:35

But yeah, mean the church has to be a part of it. And I think we could get a lot further faster if the churches had social justice movement ideology embedded in it. Well, if they practice the social justice ideology that's already embedded within the church, right? Because it's already there. Just, you gotta just turn on the switch, or read your bible for real, and like not pick and choose what you wanna talk about.

Stacie Freasier: 33:06

Yeah, I'm on a healing journey with organized religion. Grew Lutheran in South Texas. It was this little pocket of German immigrants into South Texas. And I struggled until I really got more, until I completely immersed my purpose in non violence and racial equity and justice, and then those two braided together, because that's really my focus. I didn't understand, I was just really angry.

Stacie Freasier: 33:38

I was just angry, but I didn't know what I was angry at. And so I just wrote it off, right? And the church, the organized church, and I thought I was angry at organized religions, but I actually have been healed by my work in non violence because I see the goodness of the church as a community, as a refuge, as a sanctuary. What I'm angry about is the co opting of organized religion for power and money, largely by men. No offense.

Stacie Freasier: 34:10

No, no, That's it. That's what I'm angry at. I'm angry at capitalism. I'm angry at the co opting of Jesus' message. And so now that's where I am in this moment in time.

Stacie Freasier: 34:20

And I'm curious to know if you, you already mentioned you grew up in a church. Are you a member of a church today?

Chas Moore: 34:30

Am. I think I'm still a member at Greater Mount Zion Baptist Church, shout out to pastor Clark, which is a good church. And I think it's the reason I think it's a good church because I know that pastor Clark and some other folks in leadership over there, like we have conversations about this the way I'm talking. Right? And I think they take it seriously.

Chas Moore: 34:54

And I also think they try to make it fit the best way they can for them and how they operate, which is why, you know, I still claim them and hopefully they claim me. But, yeah, I mean, I I think the church is important, period. And I I think just like anything else, I I I don't think the church is above reproach. And, like, they also just need to do better. Like, you know, because again, like the church and particularly the black church is full of older folks, our seniors, our elders going, you know, spending a hard earned retirement money to keep the church afloat.

Chas Moore: 35:39

And I just, you know, church just has so much potential and I think responsibility to serve communities in need and just be better. But I mean, I also say that about everything. I'm not the person people wanna bring things to because I'm always gonna tell you how I can be better. I appreciate what you brought me, but like-

Stacie Freasier: 36:03

have reasonably high standards.

Chas Moore: 36:05

Yeah. I mean, just I I because we're supposed to be like the most advanced beings in existence as humans. Is what they this is what

Stacie Freasier: 36:15

they say. Mean, that is a story.

Chas Moore: 36:17

Yeah. Yeah. Right. That that is what some people say. I'm just like, okay.

Chas Moore: 36:21

Well, let's see what we got. Because I think ants are more advanced than us, right? Like literally, I think ants are my favorite creature. Like when you learn how ants operate and how community driven they are, It's like, yo, one would think we would be able to do this. It seems simple enough, so of course I have to hold us to high standards, especially when like we've done so much harm to one another and we have all the tools needed to be better.

Chas Moore: 36:56

Right? So like we're cognizant enough in theory, to be able to learn from our mistakes and be better. So let's try that.

Stacie Freasier: 37:12

Yeah. You know, I'm always thinking of root, and the root cause I think a lot of our self loathing, self hatred and self destruction because we are each other in that we are both like products and sources and manifestations of the divine in my opinion. And so the only way we can deprive each other of food and physical safety and life would be an act of self loathing or hatred. So you mentioned too, we're strong enough thinkers. Well, we also need to sink into our bodies and our hearts and we can't think our way out of some of this.

Stacie Freasier: 37:57

And I think that that's also something that I try to impress as a truth that I experienced is like when I start feeling how difficult situations, how they feel in my body, how my trauma is being triggered and how I'm acting out in that way. I feel like if we all do that on ourselves and then hold each other while we're doing that work on ourselves, then we'll get somewhere.

Chas Moore: 38:29

Yeah, again, agree with that. And I think that what you just said is the reason that I've been able to not take things personal. Because I realized that, I mean, believe it or not, like, you know, I have more beef from other black men, particularly ones that are born and raised here because of this platform that has been developed over the years because of AJC and the things we've done. And it's just, it's crazy to me. Right?

Chas Moore: 39:20

Just like but also like I'm aware that like Emile Kay had people, other black men that hated him.

Stacie Freasier: 39:27

Yeah. Nobody liked him. Like both sides. Yeah.

Chas Moore: 39:30

Right.

Stacie Freasier: 39:31

We're mad at him.

Chas Moore: 39:32

And it's the same thing with Malcolm. Right? So it's just like, okay, I'm walking in my ancestors footsteps, but also like, you really don't, it's not me. Right? It's something within you that you're dealing with.

Chas Moore: 39:47

And the more I can accept and realize that I don't take it personal. Right? Just like, I actually feel sad for you and I wish I could bring you closer so we can figure this out. But I mean, I can't do that because, you know, you either don't know how or you're just choosing not to do the work yourself. But yeah, you know, and yeah.

Chas Moore: 40:12

So so yeah, just yes. Just yes to what you said.

Stacie Freasier: 40:18

You are listening to Racism on the Levels. I am your host, Stacey Fraser. I'm sitting here with my guest and my friend, Chaz Moore. We have about fifteen minutes left in this conversation. We've gotten onto some really awesome Yeah, but it is all over the place.

Stacie Freasier: 40:38

This is

Chas Moore: 40:38

such

Stacie Freasier: 40:38

a

Chas Moore: 40:39

We're all in the right place at the same

Stacie Freasier: 40:40

Yeah, multifaceted, kaleidoscopic. Also, we're oscillating between all the way from the interpersonal aspects of racism and to the systemic levels, right? And so that's the fascination, and I feel like we have to spend time on all of those levels in order to, and simultaneously in order to get somewhere, because if we just focus on one, we're missing, you know,

Chas Moore: 41:07

end And really understanding how, I mean, I could probably argue how that racism, or maybe not racism, but like the white supremacist mindset sets into like this idea of, well, why him and not me, right? Like, because I look at it from like, when I see Bill Wallace of Tomorrow's Promise Foundation and so many other things succeed, that's me succeeding too. Right? Like when I see Reese Heard from Dream Out Loud experience, or when I see Nika who has done so much and she's been on the show.

Stacie Freasier: 41:43

Nika was last month.

Chas Moore: 41:45

Right? Like, that's me succeeding. Like Anthony Jackson, right?

Stacie Freasier: 41:50

Yeah. He's been on the show.

Chas Moore: 41:52

Yeah. Right. So it's just like this white supremacist idea forces you to operate from the idea of like scarcity and you know, like there's not enough room for everybody. And so for the people that hate, and I'm, you know, I'm not rapping, I'm not like making rap videos. I don't have a lot of money, but like, and it's just confusing.

Chas Moore: 42:17

But but again, it goes back to people not really understanding or taking the time to like sit down and for real, for real deeply sincerely ask themselves, like, what am I really upset about? Right? Like, but again, that takes work. It takes work to sit down with yourself. Like that's probably the hardest thing you can do.

Chas Moore: 42:38

And again, that's something I tell activists and folks in movement spaces all the time too, is like, yes, we have to hold systems accountable, but like what can we do? Right? Like it's easy. It's very easy for me to go call out what APD and city council are, or is not doing. And that English was terrible.

Chas Moore: 42:58

I'm sorry. But

Stacie Freasier: 43:01

I don't know how English became the language. Actually, do have some theories, but still.

Chas Moore: 43:05

Yeah. I try to break it up as much as I can just because like, it's another form of activism. Exactly. Like, yeah, like what about us? Right?

Chas Moore: 43:14

Like, these things happen, but also what about us? And like what power do we have? What are some things we need to work on? And, you know, some people say that's like me, like victim blaming it. Like, no, it's it's not that.

Chas Moore: 43:31

It's just like at at least I don't think it is. Right? I don't think it's victim blaming to say, okay, you've been affected by these things. And what are we gonna do to move forward? And maybe that's the Capricorn in me.

Chas Moore: 43:49

I don't know, but it's just like, okay, like these things happen, but like also, and like, yes, let's recognize the harm in them and let's process all the things and let's, you know, do the things we need to do to get the insight. Right. But like also like, okay, okay, fine. But like, what are we doing over here to build the things we need? Because again, like I'm just at a point to where even in this idea of Austin becoming a potential example of what an inspiring anti racist city can look like, I'm not expecting them to like give me the entire toolset to like build this dream city.

Chas Moore: 44:28

Like that's gonna have to come at the blood, sweat, tears of like people like you and I in our community. Right. And so it's just like, okay.

Stacie Freasier: 44:37

I mean, some tools would be nice.

Chas Moore: 44:39

Yeah. I think- Like money.

Stacie Freasier: 44:42

I mean, money matters even though it shouldn't. And I have my whole opinion about capitalism.

Chas Moore: 44:47

Again, I think they'll give us some, but like, know, like let's-

Stacie Freasier: 44:51

But we can't wait for that.

Chas Moore: 44:52

No. Like, because if we ask them for hypothetically a million dollars to like, we're gonna be anti racist. All it's gonna take is a million dollars. They'll give us like 10 ks, right?

Stacie Freasier: 45:04

Over a 3 year period with funding, with reporting requirements.

Chas Moore: 45:07

With all type of restrictions, right? So it's just like, but I expect that from them. But what I expect from us is like endless because

Stacie Freasier: 45:17

I mean, showing up would be my first expectation, just show up. Show up for The No, Us.

Chas Moore: 45:22

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

Stacie Freasier: 45:23

I mean, anyone listening and anyone who is not active, just show up for The struggle.

Chas Moore: 45:30

And understanding that it's not just like a three month thing, you know? And I think that's what people thought. I truly believe that people thought in 2020 we had like, we were just doing it like, oh, we're about to do it. We're finna kill racism. We're finna get rid of racism.

Chas Moore: 45:49

Just like, no. Oh man, man, I wish I would I don't have regrets, but I do wish I would have spoken more fervently about why we need to hold on to this moment and inject it into the movement because like I knew what was happening.

Stacie Freasier: 46:15

And invest it, like double down on it because-

Chas Moore: 46:18

I just saw it and I mean, man, man, I think as somebody that's been touted and labeled as a leader, like that's one of my things that I failed at. All right. Because I think we had the ear of many people at the time and I was saying some good stuff, but I wasn't saying the things that would potentially lay more foundational work for the work to come that's needed. And again, I think a lot of us did that in 2020, like around the country. And maybe we just didn't have enough conversations collectively around the country, but yeah, man.

Chas Moore: 47:12

Yeah. Because I mean, here we are again, you know?

Stacie Freasier: 47:17

I don't know if we ever left, honestly. Like, here we are again. I don't even know. Like, maybe it was five minutes.

Chas Moore: 47:23

Well, like, here we are again in terms of, like, back to, like, this flat line of just Americanism, I guess. Don't know, in 2020, and maybe this is me being foolish, but in 2020, I think there was an incline of hope that people were serious about talking about racism and being anti racist and doing the work. And I think because of missed opportunities, missed talking points, mislabeling. Because I still, know, defund, yes. But it was not the right time for that messaging in my humble opinion.

Chas Moore: 48:14

And I think that got us back to like, okay, now we're just gonna do what we've been doing.

Stacie Freasier: 48:19

You know, thinking about the, also about organizations, and I said like organizations were spinning up left and right. And I have a pretty strong analysis of the nonprofit industrial complex, you and I, had, and will continue to have those conversations, I remember, you know, even the corporates who have no interest economically bottom line for racism to go away because it requires it to survive. Even the corporations were giving money to Black Lives Matter and to all these organizations, and the organizations were taking it all and just like taking the money without saying like, wait, thinking three years down the road when the money runs out, because it will, like how are we gaining traction by creating all these organizations and taking all this money? So that's my critique of what happened in the movement in that moment after George Floyd.

Chas Moore: 49:13

Yeah, think I agree with that. And you know, I believe we were among the few groups that like, I mean AJC could have had probably 5 to $10,000,000 in the bank, right? If we took money from everybody. But I'm thankful for the group of people we had then that has laid the foundation for us not to, I don't think we'll, well, we won't be there while I'm here. So I can't speak for future iterations of Austin Justice Coalition, but that was something we thought about.

Chas Moore: 49:48

And just like, man, we'd rather just keep doing what we do. And we were lucky to get some big grants from, oh, like George Soros, right? Like the big wizard of all things evil according to Twitter, but.

Stacie Freasier: 50:04

Source has been one of the few big funders who's just continued to maintain their stance yeah, so I appreciate that.

Chas Moore: 50:13

I do too, was just like, but people just can't stand it. People on Twitter can't stand a guy because it's Twitter. But outside of that, it's just been, we've been community funded, private grant funded, still haven't taken a dime from the city or feds, which is something that you like now is really paying off, Like, whew, you know, like I just saw that coming.

Stacie Freasier: 50:39

Because you had vision and strategy.

Chas Moore: 50:41

Maybe, but it just never sounded like a good idea. How can- Or

Stacie Freasier: 50:46

you trusted your gut.

Chas Moore: 50:47

Yeah, like how can we take money from the thing that we are fighting, right? We're not doing services, we're not doing programs that is here to help benefit aid, the cities, whatever they're doing. Like we're doing things for the community, right? And we, like, we just don't want the city and, and the feds, like in our books because we, we, we get as legally creative as possible when it comes to mutual aid and stuff like that. So like, yeah, we're good.

Chas Moore: 51:17

We'll figure it out. But yeah, you know, again, I think you're absolutely right. I think people got too excited by Google seemingly caring and Nike seemingly caring and the NFL seemingly caring, but because of the lack of both strategy conversation and vision, I think we lost the momentum.

Stacie Freasier: 51:45

And the vision within.

Chas Moore: 51:47

Oh, absolutely, for sure. Right? Like, and the vision in the movement always happens. I know. But I think it's a more constructive and healing way to have discord than what we've been doing.

Chas Moore: 52:07

And not just now, just like historically, right? When you think about the American Indian movement, the civil rights movement, Black Panther Party, like always the vision that that would not deal with correctly leads to momentary lapse and pause in movement. So yeah, I mean, I'm just still thinking about there's so many missed opportunities, but whatever, it'll all come back. It's up and down.

Stacie Freasier: 52:41

Well, and then like just pausing to reflect on what we learned in 2020 to then not repeat it is important. So I appreciate you bringing it back for us to look.

Chas Moore: 52:56

But again, think the most important thing you said in that little part is like, just show up. I think people have to understand that we have not progressed as far as many people think we have. Still like I'm still really thinking about how we haven't even really framed the idea around the Voting Rights Act like correctly. Right? 1965 was not long ago.

Chas Moore: 53:31

Right? And like, we're talking about black folks in this country only being able to vote in 1965, like, which is around the corner. So, I mean, yeah. Like, and I don't know how else to put that in perspective for you. Like, you know some people right now that were born in 1965.

Chas Moore: 54:01

In like 1960.

Stacie Freasier: 54:04

My dad was six years old. So that's just shit, it's not long ago.

Chas Moore: 54:08

So, I mean, yeah, it's just the civil rights act was what, '64?

Stacie Freasier: 54:15

Yeah. Civil rights act, '64 and then voting rights, '64.

Chas Moore: 54:19

Yeah, it's just like

Stacie Freasier: 54:22

Yeah. That's yesterday.

Chas Moore: 54:24

Yeah. So yeah. So when people talk about we've come so far, just like, no. The the the power structure in America is still trying to, like, get accustomed to this new idea that was introduced in the sixties. Yeah.

Chas Moore: 54:53

So yeah. I mean, I yeah. I think when I think if if we sit with that for a second, just be like, man, that's that's barely, what, four, five decades ago?

Stacie Freasier: 55:02

Within one generation, yeah.

Chas Moore: 55:04

So yeah, it's just like, what are we talking about? You know what mean? So yeah, and people swear we've just made so much progress. It's like, man, the progress hasn't even been able to sit in yet.

Stacie Freasier: 55:21

Yeah, I do believe in that was, we're at time unfortunately, I could honestly talk to you all day, Chess, this is just a pleasure. Parting thought for today.

Chas Moore: 55:40

The same as always, it's a lot of work to be done and we all have our part to do. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just that simple. Just like how how can you make the world better today? Have you done your part in making the world better today for somebody else?

Chas Moore: 56:09

Not just for you. Like, what are you doing to either build or chip away at something to make the world better for somebody else? I mean, we we it's like it's like a Lego set or a a puzzle, and we're all responsible for one piece. Don't be the person that messes up this masterpiece of what could be because you didn't show up.

Stacie Freasier: 56:42

There you go. All right, we got our marching orders. So Chaz, thank you, to be continued honestly. Thank y'all for being on the journey with us. You've been listening to Racism on the Levels and ninety one point seven FM, k o o p dot o r g.

Stacie Freasier: 57:04

Next month I will be joined by David Johnson, Executive Director of Building Promise USA. And in on April 3 we'll actually have my other show here Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour so I encourage you to tune in. Remember in all things and always love is the highest level.