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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: In this episode of We Not Me, we are going to hear the shocking statistic that 75% of households in the UK require two working people to sustain them. That means that the vast majority of parents return to work after having babies. But how is that experience? How is the workplace set up for it?
[00:00:18] Our guest is Jess Heagren, a former corporate high flyer and now a campaigner for people returning to work after having babies. Her research and experience revealed that we have a lot of work to do to welcome the returning parent and to harness their potential.
[00:00:33] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get Stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:45] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:46] Dan: And Pia, I have to start with happy birthday to you and many
[00:00:50] Pia: Oh, thank you. it's been quite a milestone. This one. It's quite a biggie.
[00:00:55] Dan: Even though you annoyingly don't look it, you've had a big milestone, congrat, how do you, how do you feel reach reaching that? Is that something that just passes you by, it's just a number? What's your emotional journey been around it?
[00:01:08] Pia: The emotional journey is around what does 60 mean to everybody else.
[00:01:13] Dan: Oh yeah.
[00:01:14] Pia: And are you relevant? I've had a real relevancy conversation, that's been, you know that. Because the number might make assumptions that you are near retirement or that you may be slowing down or you may, and there's none of the.
[00:01:28] I'm, I have huge imposter syndrome about being 60 'cause I really don't feel it at all. And that's not a denial thing. I mean, I'm just incredibly, I feel very fortunate. I'm, well, I'm, In a career that I am absolutely passionate and purpose led, and I have a very beautiful family and friends and loved ones. So I just sort of go, whoa, you know, this is ex, this is exciting.
[00:01:55] And when I got to the point, what I counsel myself was, what if I had the best ever decade of my life, what would it be? And what? And to be the, and what came in my sort of internal discussions was it's about being relevant for others. You know, I've probably accrued as many shoes and jeans and other things I need. It's, It's a real, like, actually the relevance for your work for the people that you're contributing to, your family, you know, your friends. And then I felt, I woke up feeling like, right game
[00:02:31] Dan: Right. Let's do it. Well done. So very Pia, and very, We Not Me, if I may say. So. This is where we actually ultimately derive our purpose, isn't it? It is not through things but other people. So brilliant. We Not Me. But congratulations, and, uh, yeah, it's a very Pia approach to this important decade, and I think you're going to have a huge impact on the planet. So, yes, I'm, and I'm looking forward to being with you along the way, my friend.
[00:02:53] Pia: We're gonna be there.
[00:02:54] Dan: and today I'm trying to make a. Segue into this, but I'm failing dismally. But, uh, we're talking today to Jess Heagren, who is as we'll hear an impassioned advocate for not just for women to make this happen, but organizations to make it possible for people to have better careers after having babies, which as we'll hear is in a terrible state. I think we'll have a good chat about this after we talk to Jess. So let's, uh, let's get over there now and hear what she has to say. Lots of lovely, yummy statistics coming up.
[00:03:29] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Jess Heagren. Welcome to the show, Jess.
[00:03:33] Jessica: Hi. I am really excited to be here.
[00:03:35] Pia: Oh, we are too. So this is a, I think this is such a topical topic. You did tell us before that you prepared. So, so, what did you listen to?
[00:03:44] Jessica: I, listened to a few episodes. The first episode I chose was the chap who did bomb disposal, which just, you know, made me feel like a completely inadequate human being. So, but then I listened to the imposter syndrome, which made me feel better.
[00:03:58] Pia: Yes.
[00:03:59] Jessica: I've, I've been on a real journey with you.
[00:04:01] Pia: Fantastic. We'd love to know that actually from our listeners. Which ones would you pick and mix and what does it say about
[00:04:07] Jessica: Just, Just make sure you choose them in the right order. Is,
[00:04:10] Dan: Yes. Right. Okay. That's great. I love the way that you sort of, that one elevated, that sort of sense of imposter and then you had an episode to sort of try to solve the problem that we created. Perfect, excellent.
[00:04:22] Pia: But what runs through all of them is is the impossible questions that Dan is going to ask you. So, the curly questions, so I'll throw you into the chamber
[00:04:31] Dan: Excellent. Here we go. I've cut the pack and I have, uh, this is one that has come up before and it's a it's a nice one actually. My favorite smell.
[00:04:40] Jessica: Ooh, that's a good one. So I immediately jumped to vanilla, but then very quickly to my husband's aftershave.
[00:04:45] Pia: Oh, and what is your husband's aftershave? it's not Old Spice is it or something?
[00:04:50] Jessica: No. It's Chanel blur. But I, I, funnily enough, I was, uh, on my way back from London the other day and I got a waft of it on the train. I was like, oh, I love that smell. And I turned around and it was this really old man and big ugly brown coat. It just, It just didn't go, it didn't marry up with what I was expecting, yeah.
[00:05:06] Pia: no, that didn't.
[00:05:07] Dan: It's, powerful stuff though, isn't it? The um, olfactory senses that they, and aren't they in the brain right next to some of the memory centers or something like that? They're really closely related, so they're they're powerful.
[00:05:19] Pia: Ah, right. I didn't know that.
[00:05:21] Dan: I believe so. I might have made that up.
[00:05:22] Pia: No could. You could have completely made that up and we just believed you could be a Hammond Hammond fact. You've gotta be careful with these. They have the ring of, uh, of truth about them, but that's
[00:05:31] Jessica: I'm quite gullible as well, so I'll just be Oh, oh is probably,
[00:05:34] Dan: I've got a, I've got more Jessica.
[00:05:36] Pia: yeah, God's sake, we could spend 40 minutes on that. Ambre Solaire another one that reminds me of all my youthful holidays. You know that and literally like when you smell it, 'cause there's a lot of different, but that was like the predominant suntan cream.
[00:05:50] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:05:50] Dan: Well, well, while we are looking back and getting all retrospective, Jess, why don't we keep going give us a little potted bio of, Jess. How did you get to this point today?
[00:05:59] Jessica: So my last employed role was in, uh, one of largest insurance companies. I had worked my way up very quickly there to board level. I was the only female member of the board. And I one day took our strategy up to the public facing board. So we've kind of regularly go and sort of update on where we were. And one of the non-exec directors said, oh, Jess Heagren, we've heard your name before. Tell us what it's like to be a young, talented female in our insurance business.
[00:06:27] And I have one of those pivotal moments of I can either tell the truth here or I can toe the party line. And you know, me being one unable to keep her mouth shut, I decided to tell the truth and I said to him, well, look, my reality day to day is that I spent my life surrounded by middle-aged men with stay at home wives. I don't really have any friends at work, and I was recently married at the time and said, oh, I want to have a baby at some point in the next couple of years. And to me, that will spell the end of my career. They were obviously yeah, quite jarring. There's lots of paper shuffling, of
[00:06:59] Dan: Still the weather turned out nice again today. Yeah, that was.
[00:07:02] Jessica: exactly like that. But one of the, one of the products of that conversation was that I was asked to set up the first diversity inclusion, uh, committee, which ERGs are very common today, employee resource groups, but they weren't back then. So it was sort of one of the first ones that we developed. And I led to the gender and working family strand of that work. So I had, it was a 15,000 strong company at that point. Obviously very low female representation being in insurance. So we did lots of work to increase the profile.
[00:07:32] Fast forward a couple of years. I had my first daughter, so I've got four children. She, uh, was my first one. And I only took a five month mat leave, which obviously in the UK is quite uncommon, particularly with your first. The reason I did that was because I didn't want a male maternity cover to come in and take my job, 'cause I'd seen that happen time and time again. So I went back after that short time. But my transition back into work was, was awful, probably. Not, you know, through, through fault on both of our parts. I think so, you know, of support. I didn't share. Everything that was going on for me because I didn't want to be branded the hormonal, you know, women in the corner.
[00:08:12] And I, we can touch on it in more detail, but I basically, after a few months, I just said, I can't do this. I can't do the working mum thing. So I said to my husband Let's, um, let's have a second, we were gonna do it anyway, but this time I'll take a year off and then I just don't have to think about work. So that's what we did. And during that second mat leave, I quit completely.
[00:08:32] So in two short years, I went from being on the succession plan to be CEO of a FTSE 100 company to being a stay at home mom of two children. And I just remember waking up one day and thinking, oh wow, haven't things changed? And yeah, when I started to get all obsessive and, you know, planning meals on spreadsheets and that type of thing, my husband very gently said to me, Jess, do you think you might be a bit bored? I. I think I might be.
[00:08:58] So after that, I went to a friend of mine one day who was the ex marketing director for a very well known alcohol company. And I, we were having a play date. All the kids were sort of rolling around on the floor and she said, oh, I've got a job at Majestic Wine. And I was like, oh, amazing. Whatcha gonna be doing? And she said, oh, I'm just gonna go back in the shop a couple of days a week to, you know, get out the house.
[00:09:19] And I remember stomping home with the pram, with the babies in it, just thinking what is going on with the world? Why is this incredible? Women with all this talent? Reentering the workforce at a, uh, an entry level role? So I decided to do something about it. Initially i, uh, created a platform to help, uh, skilled moms find flexible and part-time job opportunities. That launched about three weeks before the first lockdown. So, you know, timing wise, it
[00:09:47] Dan: we are in the same boat.
[00:09:48] Jessica: Yeah, no, it definitely wasn't the best timing. That said, we had some, you know, we had some really great coverage. I won female entrepreneur in the year award with Enterprise Nation. We diversity award with Tech Nation, so we quite good profile. But if I kind of reflect on what happened, I would say lots of organizations talk about the wanting to reduce gender pay gaps, you know, increase gender equality. When you ask them to put money behind it for this type of initiative, it's a very different conversation that happens.
[00:10:19] So it was a real tough journey. However, along the way, I sort of started to help more organizations look at what good looks like. So, you know, what does a good return from, uh, maternity, that, how can we keep women progressing? Then I was invited to speak at an event and I wanted to talk to a data set that kind of told that narrative around what I saw happening to so many women. Could never find it in a format that I liked. So I thought, oh, I'll just do a bit of research myself. Put a survey out. Uh, had just under a thousand responses in two weeks. Panicked because I knew that I was gonna have to do the data analysis, so I stopped it there, yeah.
[00:10:54] And then last year I published a report called Careers After Babies, the Uncomfortable Truth, and it went viral on LinkedIn, which was just an absolute game changer and set me up for what I'm doing now. So the main findings of that report were that the majority of women want to go back to work. 87% are unable to make full-time work alongside having children, which I guess isn't much of a surprise for any of us with children. Of those that do go back full-time, half of them end up leaving within two years. We found that generally two thirds of women earn less after they have children than they did before, and it takes about 10 years from when you have children for your career to recover and for you to get back to the same position.
[00:11:38] There was obviously lots of positive stuff in there as well about, you know, what women actually need from the workplace. But I think those were kind of the killer stats that made everyone say, you know, oh my God, are we doing this wrong? And I think drawing the parallels between gender pay gap, gender inequity in leadership, and you know, the pay there was, there's barely a pay gap up to age 30 and by 40 it's quadrupled. The average age in the UK a child is 32, so for me it's very linear, it's, it's a, It's a very direct issue.
[00:12:07] So, while the pay gap, the pay gap is. Is actually quite well talked about now, isn't it? And it sounds like actually it's a little bit, it's obviously a huge problem, but it's more complicated than it appears. It's sort of not too bad when you're younger, but actually the pay gap, it seems to be largely caused by women returning to work, they're sort of, the statistics are being weighted by them so that this is actually. I know this is, this is what you spend your life doing, but this is, this is the problem, isn't it?
[00:12:32] Well, yeah I'm adamant that it is, and I think, you know, but we talk lots around women's confidence and that type of thing, and yes, I think there is a, there's a, there is an issue there and, but I think it's a marginal one. I think the reality of this is it's having families. So, you know, women are stepping out of the workplace, whether it's for six months, whether it's a year. They then want to return.
[00:12:55] And that another interesting stat, actually, 75% of families in the UK now need two parents to work. So actually this goes beyond wanting to return. A lot of the time it's a needing to return and we just still see workplaces. Not facilitating what working parents need.
[00:13:12] The other thing I think to call out here is it's not just a women's issue. So you'll know shared parental leave was introduced to try and drive up the number of men and co-parents sharing that leave. Actually the uptake is still at about 5%. And through our research we found that only 15% of couples were even having that conversation, which absolutely baffles me.
[00:13:33] Being someone who, the first thing I did when I found out I was pregnant, my husband tells everyone this story. I came out of the toilet with the pregnancy stick in my hand. Said we're pregnant. Threw it at him and said, you know, this is our baby. It's not mine. We're gonna look after it together.
[00:13:47] Dan: That's as it bounces off his cranium. yeah, Wow. That's interest. So 15% of couples talk about this decision.
[00:13:56] Pia: Why is that?
[00:13:57] Jessica: So I think a lot of it comes down to the prevailing traditional thinking. So I think there's still very much this, you know, you are the woman who gives birth to the baby, and therefore you are responsible for it. And we see that happen a lot. And in some cases, don't get me wrong, I, I get lots of women that message me saying, well, you know, I wanted to take time off with my children and, and look after them which I understand completely. But there, like I've just said, there is a huge majority of people that actually do want to go, want and need to go back to work. And I think we are just not, we are not seeing it happen enough.
[00:14:33] So interestingly, one of the one of the organizations that equalize share parental leave, so that means that they said dads and, uh, co-parents can have the same amount of paid time off as a mom. So the idea being that, you know, if it's an equal playing field, you choose how you divvy up that time. There's a large organization in the insurance sector who announced, so everybody said we want to equalize share parental leave. They announced that they were doing it. And the uptake to start off with was sat around 11%, and they couldn't work out. Why? You know, everyone told us this is what we wanted. Why aren't they taking it? Why aren't they taking it more seriously? Then they had one of their senior leaders, uh, announced to the whole organization that he was taking five months off to look after his newborn son. The uptake went from 11% to 96%. So that the power of that role modeling.
[00:15:24] And I think a lot of cultures are still very permissive. So until they see somebody in leadership do it and that be okay, there's a real barrier to, well, there's something there, but you know, is my line manager gonna make this, uh, an awkward situation? Are my friends gonna judge me? What are other, what are other men gonna say, for example?
[00:15:43] Pia: I wonder whether there's a self-limiting belief that, you know, this is gonna have a negative impact on your career. You know, it might be things you're telling yourself as a male, but seeing yourself in that role as provider, then, you know, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself. So it would take leadership from executives to pave the way and to make it okay
[00:16:05] So what are moms who are returning back into the workplace? What are the biggest things that are gonna make a difference for them inside an organization that could make that transition from looking after extremely young babies back into the hurley burly of some quite difficult workplaces too?
[00:16:25] Jessica: So there were seven themes, if you like, that came out of all of the research. So the first two, I think are quite obvious. So one is equitable and family friendly policies. So the type of thing that we've just talked about, you know, is that paid support there to enable someone to take, you know, quality time off so that they can then come back? Is this an organization that you know, supports families?
[00:16:48] The second one is a flexible work environment. So flexibility is the single biggest thing that any organization can do. If we revisit that 87% number, basically we cannot make it work without, you know, asking someone to be in an office or onsite from, you know, nine to five, Monday to Friday, it doesn't, it just doesn't work for that balance.
[00:17:07] The other five themes are very much around business culture. So the first one that we talk about is empathetic and inclusive line management. So I often hear of, I, I hear of so many women say to me. I was lucky. I had a good line manager. And I think as an organization that just should not be an acceptable thing to hear. There's this inconsistency around line management and how somebody approaches something that can make one person's experience in an organization completely different to another person's.
[00:17:39] So we encourage this and we call it empathetic and inclusive line management, by which we mean someone who understands what's going on for that individual. They don't make assumptions. So again, you know, how often do women and men here, oh well, you know, you're obviously not gonna wanna come back to work. Pia, I think it's really interesting. People think a lot of these attitudes have been dropped, but believe me, they haven't. I hear, you, the stories I hear every day are shocking.
[00:18:06] So that, yeah, that's one, the next one we talk about is consistent nurture and support. So this is about helping very much with that transition. So it might look like mentoring, it might look like coaching. It's the way that you prepare somebody for going off on leave. 'cause let's not forget, it's not just about the return, it's about how it's your preparation before you go off on leave. So what are you putting in place? What engagement are you gonna keep up with the organization while you are off? And then what does that transition back in look like? So how can you best support somebody through that?
[00:18:38] The third one we've touched on already, senior leaders parenting loudly. So again, it's not just about taking shared parental leave, it's about senior leaders demonstrating and being really open, honest about the fact they have children and they're working around children too. I think that's probably one of the most powerful and immediate things that organizations can do. You know, if we talked more.
[00:18:59] I think parenting is one of the biggest levelers. So I can have a conversation with my bin man. I could have a conversation with my local politician. I can have a conversation with my best friend about parenting. You know, you've, you've al you can always find a level with somebody. And I think organizations should embrace that more to, to grow that connectivity between different people, because again it, it has a huge impact on the culture.
[00:19:20] The next one is valuing parenting. So again, this is the, this is how does the organization feel about working parents? How much do we talk about our families? Do we expect people to be home version of Jess and work version of Jess, or actually do we accept that, you know, she's one individual with four children trying to balance, you know, life?
[00:19:40] Parents are progressing is another of our theme. So again, this is about what you quite often see. And again, I have this conversation all the time, is somebody has been promoted, they've reached a really senior level, they go out and have a child, and then suddenly they find themselves in the same job for eight years because assumptions are made about their willingness to progress, about their ability to learn new things. So it is to prevent that stagnation and say, well, actually, how do we bring people back from parental leave?
[00:20:08] Uh, the interesting point here is that we're seeing some of these patterns emerge for people that have taken shared parental leave as well. So you're starting to see some more men feel some of the same pain points that women have been experiencing for years. And as much as I hate to say it, when that starts to happen, I feel like it's likely that some more action will be taken about it because it moves it away from being just about this one particular group of people, but actually to, to affecting everyone. And the reality is that 83% of, uh, people will become parents in their lives.
[00:20:39] Dan: And I think that everyone issue is, is such a powerful point. It's funny actually. On the podcast, very often we will meet experts like you Jess, on a topic and it looks like a, like an isolated thing. This can look like oh, this is for moms returning to work. Actually what it does is it, all the things that list. In reality, you could apply to anyone. It's almost, these are things that everyone could benefit from in a more broad way. And, but I think conversely you to solve these problems, I think you, I guess you are trying to, you are against a tide of corporate culture and, and that sort of lack of change.
[00:21:18] Which. I think that's the fascinating thing, is you're dealing with problems that actually, if you think about the di the need for diversity in organizations is there. This is an element of it, but if the if people were able to accept difference and allow people to be themselves and bring their own unique self to work, then you wouldn't have a problem. But that's affecting a lot of people.
[00:21:38] Jessica: it is. It It, like I've just said, you know, it affects the majority of people. It's the biggest intersectionality between all of the different diversity groups. The other, the thing that I most often come up against, so I've, in fact I've just published a report. Specific to professional services, and in there I have a section on the business case for supporting working parents.
[00:21:57] This came off the back of a very good friend of mine. He is the FD of a consulting company and in quite a heated debate, probably fueled by a few too many gins, he turned around and said, everyone's replaceable though, aren't they, Jess? And I, you can, you can imagine my reaction, but the debate, the debate roared for a while.
[00:22:19] but, But this is, you know, how do you look at your people. I can, I can't fathom how we can allow this exodus of talent from the workforce. I've got the numbers in one of my reports, but you know, the amount of, the years worth of talent and experience we let go because we can't make allowances for people to work in a different way. It just absolutely blows my mind.
[00:22:44] The other thing is, again, kind of coming back to, uh, men sort of being an enabler around this, there are so many positive benefits for men as well. So men spending more time with their children, it's proven that it has a massively positive impact on their mental health. I think from a relationship perspective, I've obviously already alluded to the fact that my husband and I are very equal in terms of our parent parental responsibilities.
[00:23:05] But we, I think as a couple, we don't have that resentment that builds up when one is more responsible for children and one's more responsible for the finances. We're both equally stressed by both of them. But, but we share, we share that load. And I think from a relationship point of view that's really helpful. And to, you know, for our whole family unit.
[00:23:25] The business case for diversity, as far as I'm concerned, has been proven time and time again. But to put that in front of an FD, you know, who believes something like that, it's not enough on its own. So you then have to start looking at, okay, what does it mean from a loss of talent? What does it mean for rehiring costs, for retraining people? What does it mean for our gender pay gap and our gender representation?
[00:23:48] The, the fall off, and again, I have a figure for this that shows the fall off in gender equality from a general population to mid management, to senior management to board. The reality is, you know, bunch fallout from perception. So we work with one organization who thought they were doing great because they were like, oh, well anyone goes off maternity leave with us, comes back. But when they looked at the age between 28 and 32, they had a big fallout of women because women were looking saying, this is not the type of organization where you start a family. So they were leaving before that had even happened and going elsewhere.
[00:24:22] So there's a perceived loss then I think there's a. An actual loss that comes from organizations being unable to support, and then by the time you get to that senior level, funnily enough, you don't have a big enough talent pool to choose from. So there's a, there's an issue there, which leads to the gender equality piece. Then you haven't had women in earning enough, which contributes the gender pay gap.
[00:24:42] Pia: I think too that sometimes there is an cumulative impact. I, I think of sort of who execs are today, and, many of them are likely to be male, probably more than female at this point, because they've spent, you know, if they're sitting in their mid forties, they've spent the last 20, 25 years, working their way up. And they may well be in a socioeconomic bracket that actually their partner doesn't have to work.
[00:25:10] So then they're in that privileged position, quite patriarchal in many respects, where then it's difficult to break the system, but everybody else, it's a bit like how the baby boomers have all the houses in Australia, you know, and everyone else can't get on the housing market. It's a similar, it's where we've got, it's cumulative. It's where we've got to. So you've really got to, you've gotta have some of those execs change that system.
[00:25:35] Jessica: Yeah. And I, there's an interesting generational difference. So there was a some research published a few years ago called the Millennial Dad and Hanson Lee, actually, who published it with Deloitte. Is one of our accreditation board members. So he's quite, he's been quite involved in developing the framework with us.
[00:25:51] In that report, it demonstrated that particularly in men under 40, their expectations around the role that they play in home, their contribution to family life is much more significant than the generation that came before. So one of my hopes, I hope that we don't have to wait, you know, 10, 20 years for this happen, but one of my hopes is that as we see that next generation of fathers come through, there will be a difference of opinions around a lot of these things. So they will be broadly more supportive of, family support measures and much more open about their role.
[00:26:25] Cause I think you are completely right in certainly those older generations, it was, it was a much more traditional setup. And I guess we, we are trying to change something that has happened over a relatively short space of time, and work culture quite caught up yet. But the solutions aren't rocket science, you know? And a lot of them they don't, they don't even require massive investment. A lot of them are very behavioral. It's about how you're talking, it's about how you're communicating. It's about whether.
[00:26:51] I, I completely understand. It can feel very unnatural for say, I don't know a, a man who's in his mid fifties who's never spoken about his family at work because, you know, Barbara stays at home and looks after the kids, and that's always been the way to say to him. Actually, no. Come on. Come in and talk about your family. Talk about your children, and talk about grandchildren. And that feeling very uncomfortable. But actually the difference it has is astronomical.
[00:27:15] Dan: It, it must be said. It just shows a huge, to be honest, you know, if we have to wait e each of these changes to wait a generation for people who've experienced the pain to actually change something, that, that, that explains the glacial pace of change. And frankly, it shows an extraordinary lack of empathy. It shouldn't, it should be possible to empathize with someone even if you haven't yourself experienced that. It's um, but unfortunately it does seem to be the way that we have to wait for the next generation to come through, who've experienced the, the problem to change something.
[00:27:48] Jessica: I think that, so that empathy piece is really interesting, isn't it? So I'm very open about the fact that I was a terrible line manager before I had children. So I remember there was a lady that worked for me. I, I publicly apologized to her on LinkedIn, but I had one of those moments where I just thought, oh my God, what you put this woman through.
[00:28:07] I remember her, she felt like she, you know, wasn't allowed to work from home and that she was going to get in trouble if she came in late which, another thing I'll come back to in a minute for, you know, people being treated like children, feeling like they're in trouble for, you know, something happening in their life. But for her to feel like that when something happened with their children. I remember her son being taken into hospital one day and she came into the office. And I was just horrified. I was like, what? What are you doing here? Why aren't you with him? And she said, oh, I've been offload sick. And I thought you'd not be very happy about it. And I was like, Sue, just go back, like, go to the hospital and be with your child. Like, I'm not a dragon.
[00:28:41] But the very fact that she felt that way is just to me absolutely horrifying. And I just think I didn't, you don't know the reality of having children until you have them. And I think, don't get me wrong, you know, lots of line managers do a very good job of this. But it's very difficult to empathize and understand what somebody is going through as a parent if you are not one yourself. And I think that makes it a lot harder.
[00:29:06] There's then another tranche of people that have, I talked to a large organization the other day. This lady's just come back off, off maternity leave. She had a keep in touch day where nobody showed up, so she was asked to come into the office, do her keep in touch day. She was there on her own, uh, nothing to do, no one to talk to. And when she said to her line manager afterwards, you know, it would've been nice to sort of see somebody, she said, oh, stop being so self-centered. You know, I managed it just to get on with things.
[00:29:32] So you get this real, these kind of two camps of people. So you get the ones that say this was awful, I'm gonna do something about it. Which fortunately applies to the majority, but there is still a camp of people who are, well, I managed it, you know, I got through working full-time when I had three children. So you just do the same and that, you know, very little, little.
[00:29:53] Which again comes back to why that empathetic and inclusive line management piece is so important. It's, you know, it's about listening. It's about not making assumptions, it's about having conversations. All of those things that should come readily to most people, but unfortunately don't.
[00:30:08] Pia: I mean there is also quite a unique set of circumstances about work today that creates a lot of scarcity for people. There's a lot of fear, and they become quite insular about the task and their job and their role. And they don't feel almost like they've got license to bring their family in and the bigger things that they're do, they're actually doing the work for.
[00:30:32] 'Cause we, you Know, we, yes, we get enjoyment, absolutely get enjoyment out of our career. And that, you know, if we're lucky enough it aligns with purpose. But at the end of the day, we've all got bills to pay, and we've all got food to put on the table. So I think that too. I think I think there's a conversation not being had because we're all a little bit, a bit under the pump. And then you're sort of seeing yourself inside this system thinking, I've just gotta work hard. I've gotta kind of pretend that I'm not actually having a family. Somehow I've gotta make it disappear so that I can still be seen to be committed.
[00:31:04] Jessica: Yeah, but it goes back to what I said before, doesn't it? You know, if the whole organization is open and people are coming to work, being themselves, talking about their family, actually, then it's okay to come in and say oh God, you know what? I've had a really rough night, you know, my 2-year-old didn't sleep.
[00:31:20] The other morning I woke up with all four chil, six of us in a bed, all six of us. I, you know, I barely got an hour sleep. But to be able to go into a workplace and say that if it's not the type of place that, you know, tolerates the family discussion or, you know, you feeling under par because something had happened, it's like, exactly like you said, it's a very difficult place to be.
[00:31:41] I think there's something in here around that, treating people like adults, trusting them to do their job. You know, lots of people will say, if you don't trust someone, why, why do you employ them? Actually we're grownups in work. You know, we all have responsibilities. We are all trying to maintain our health, to earn money, to look after our family.
[00:32:01] And exactly like you said before, Dan, that whole, a lot of the initiatives that we're talking around this enable those things so flexible working. For example, maybe if you can work from home a few times a week, then you get to walk the dog, you get to go, you know, work in a way that works for me, getting through my washing whilst I'm working.
[00:32:19] Dan: And, and, And it would help anyone who might have, be a carer or in a family that um, you're in cultures that are more family oriented and you have to give general support. You know, it, it's, just good thing for all, isn't it?
[00:32:31] Jessica: That's a really interesting point as well about that intersectionality with, with different cultures that when we take away flexibility and we demand people come back into the office, the most impacted are always the underrepresented. So it's always working moms and it's always people from different cultures with different responsibilities because these things aren't thought about. People make rash decisions around getting people back to the office on some pretense of low productivity, based on nothing other than hot air a lot of the time.
[00:33:03] Dan: Amazing stuff, Jess. And look, you're doing really important work here. And so let's see. That's some, that's, this is gonna be challenging, but you have so many stakeholders, don't you? You have so many groups of people you are, think you are, you're trying to um, support and influence. If you ha, if you were to choose one of them, say, and give one of them a tip about something they could do differently tomorrow, we'll give them today just to plan how they're gonna do it. Uh, what who would you talk to and what would you say?
[00:33:34] Jessica: I would say to anyone to open up the conversation about your family, your circumstances, your responsibility, and the things that you need to be healthy and therefore happy and therefore productive, and therefore more loyal to your organizations. I think everything, everything is all joined up, but I think just having that conversation, whether it's with your partner about parental responsibilities, whether it's with your boss about how tricky or not that you are finding things because of the culture of your business, whether it's with a client that you work with.
[00:34:11] So you can imagine how often I hear, oh, you know, we, we can't let people, can't let people leave at three o'clock because we've got clients to service. Well, I'm pretty sure if he said that client, I'll call you back at 9:00 AM tomorrow, unless the house is burning down that's probably going to be okay. The ability to have that conversation with any of those stakeholders is just, it's game changing.
[00:34:32] Dan: It's a good one. And finally, Jess, what have you got a, have we finished with a media recommendation, a book, podcast? Obviously you've recommended We not Me already as a piece of therapy, but or a anything, a Netflix series. What what would you recommend people take a look at to get a little bit more informed?
[00:34:48] Jessica: So I read a book last year called The Equal Parent by Paul Morgan-Bentley. And he is a journalist for the Times. And he and his husband adopted a child and they talk about the, that when you come at parenting and work from a very equal standpoint, particularly one of two men, it's really interesting kind of how that plays out. And it debunks so many of the myths and untruths I think that we hold around a lot of this thing.
[00:35:22] The other thing, I, if you're interested in the research, obviously you can access the reports that we've produced at careersafterbabies.org. We've got a couple of really powerful reports in the.
[00:35:32] Dan: Thank you. Those links will be in the show notes. it's powerful stuff, Jess. Thank you.
[00:35:38] Pia: Yeah, keep up the great work.
[00:35:39] Jessica: Thank you. I feel like I've just thrown an awful lot at you. You both actually.
[00:35:42] Dan: It's good to, it's a great, no that'll, that'll, that's, uh, that's exactly what's needed. So, so thank you and I hope many, many people listen to this and we can help you to make a little bit of a difference along your, in your amazing work. Thank you. Jess, for being on We Not Me today.
[00:35:56] Jessica: thank you so much. I feel like I've been very, me and actually there are lots of other people involved in this that have made this happen, so I acknowledge that.
[00:36:05] Dan: Of course well done. Very we not Me moment, but uh, great work to all of you and, uh, thank you for being on the show.
[00:36:11] Pia: Thank
[00:36:11] Jessica: Thanks for having me.
[00:36:15] Dan: Loads of yummy numbers there. But the one that stuck out that is far from yummy for me was this 75% of people need two parents to be working to afford to live. And I, I mean at a systemic level. That is a huge change since you and I were kids, you know, in those days you could have one parent working. Generally yes. It was pretty much always the man, um, so that needs to change, but for 75% to have to be working. That just puts pressure on this whole, whole system and it shows to me that the system is, is failing essentially. But that puts pressure on this whole thing that we're talking about today of how anyone can take time out from the workplace.
[00:36:58] Pia: Yeah, it does put pressure on, it puts a scarcity on the situation. And also then, you're in this slightly self-defeating cycle where you are working and probably half or one of those wages is going for childcare. So the childcare business is doing extremely well out of this one.
[00:37:13] Dan: Yeah. And it's, you're just about Keeping a note head above the water. The, the other one, while I'm on the numbers very briefly, is that example that Jess gave, and it's tied to that, is that that um, adoption rate of 11%, but when a male senior leader took it up, 96%. That just shows from, you know, what we talk about a lot on this show about the leadership and lead as example, how the lead, how the sort of culture that comes from the top of the organization is so important.
[00:37:43] And if I link that with the fact that 25% of couples don't need both to work, well, those people are the wealthier people and they're the ones running the companies. So there's a real, the numbers tell a story there that these people who are at the top of organizations need to really show empathy, even though they don't need to do any of this stuff because they're wealthy. But that's not the case for the majority of their employees. And they need to lead and do things that might feel unnatural to them.
[00:38:10] Pia: And then only 15% of couples are talking about
[00:38:13] Dan: Even having this conversation. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:15] Pia: so that's that that surprised me a lot actually.
[00:38:19] Dan: Me too. And I must say I guiltily went to talk to my wife about this, 'cause I said did, did we actually, just to make sure, 'cause you know, this was, and without mentioning a big anniversary that's coming. This was 30 years ago. And you know, no not, no that's getting married. The other one the children was a little bit later. But, you know? Yes, and apparently we did, it seemed right that's what, for us, that was the right thing. But we did talk about it at the time. But, but yeah, 15%, that's, that just shows how these patterns aren't changing fast, are they?
[00:38:49] Pia: No. And a lot of pressure placed on moms and then that gay pay cap, I say that correctly again, slight sli in the tongue. The pay gap, you know, has quadrupled for women who were, you know, top talent, aspiring for senior leadership positions, and then taking a real cut, financially. And I mean, we didn't talk about the sleepless nights and kids being sick and all the events and the things that you wanna be part of their lives it's a huge undertaking.
[00:39:23] Dan: I mean, I when my wife, Juliet, when she was working at a Swiss bank in the late eighties, she was actually told we shouldn't employ effing women. Here, I'll spare everyone the actual word that was said. You know, and you sort of think, God, we've come a long way since then. On the other hand, these numbers sort of say actually, wow, the incumbent culture takes some shifting, doesn't it? And, And I, you know, I think this is a, a call to everyone, anywhere, particularly senior leaders to really accelerate this and not just let change happen when a generation has to move, die, or move out of the workplace. We've got to do better than lets humans. I don't think we are very good, but we have to do something to accelerate this.
[00:40:02] Pia: And I think not to judge and not to, well, uh, to, I think to expand your view of empathy of others because most people in that organization will not be paid the way that you are, nor have that have the nice entitlements that brings. So therefore you've gotta make a healthy work system. Otherwise it's going to drive the wrong behaviors and, and everyone will burn out.
[00:40:27] And then we then have to think about, and what is the implications for the next generation of children being brought up in that system? Stress parents trying to juggle everything, trying to, you know, feeling under pressure. That's not a, that's not optimal.
[00:40:40] Dan: it really isn't. And I think some, something has to change if three quarters of parents both have to work. You know, that that's okay. There's something wrong with both parents working, but not, it's a, to, it's a lack of choice that, that that means you've really got to, unless you're wealthy, you've got one way of doing things.
[00:40:56] So, yeah. So I think there's, um. yeah, there's some real lessons and things there, and I think that leader go, leaders have a very important role to play here to set an example, as you said, start talking about these things. Try to be empathetic, understand, talk to people who are in a different position from you, and ideally go first because it's like we've said before about psychological safety. If you want people to admit to mistakes and learn, you have to do the same thing yourself as a senior leader. Otherwise, the culture becomes one of right, being right. It's the same in this situation. It's however flat we think our organizations are hierarchy, status and rank live on, and we need to realize that and and sort of, when you get to those positions, you have some duties as well as some privileges.
[00:41:42] But that is it for this episode. We Noe Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify is the complete system for helping your team to connect and perform. You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net, including those links that Jess mentioned. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:42:06] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.