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The Healthy Wealth Experience - Where Financial Success Meets Personal Wellbeing
Host Chris Hall combines 30+ years in finance with wellness expertise to help entrepreneurs and professionals build wealth without sacrificing their health. From investment strategies to money management, we offer advice to make financial success more sustainable.
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Chris Hall (00:00.000) Hello and welcome to Healthy Wealth. I'm your host, Chris Hall, and I'm
excited to share with you a new guest. I have with me Toni Will, who is the general manager for the
Kalamazoo Wings, which is a professional hockey team. And she is the only female general manager in
professional hockey. So Toni, thank you so much for being on the show.
Toni Will (00:22.900) Yeah, thanks, Chris. Pleasure to be here. Excited.
Chris Hall (00:25.460) Yeah. So tell me a little bit about yourself. I actually always like to kind of hear,
you know, how people came up and kind of get where, you know, a little story about how you got
where you are now. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself growing up?
Toni Will (00:38.640) Yeah, so I grew up in a small town just south of Kalamazoo, Michigan. So if
anyone's wondering where Kalamazoo is, number one, there really is a Kalamazoo. And I'm born and
raised here in a town called Vicksburg, Michigan. yeah, my mom and dad, my mom was a school
teacher and my dad was an entrepreneur. And we grew up in a nice, you know, middle-class
upbringing and... down in Vicksburg and I never really left. Now I don't live in Vicksburg any longer. I
live just on the outskirts of Kalamazoo, but I grew up on water, on a lake and that was one of my
dreams as I've gotten older. And now I have my own lake house that I live on with my husband here in
Hickory Corners, Michigan, just outside of Kalamazoo.
Chris Hall (01:20.640) Love that. So you grew up in the area and then you were in first before you
were a hockey manager. What did you do for a career before that?
Toni Will (01:29.810) Yeah, so I, just to step back a little bit, I went to Kalamazoo Valley Community
College and did a couple of years in community college. And then I went over to Western Michigan
University and I thought I was gonna be an exercise science major. I was really passionate about fitness
and nutrition. And my dad said, know, Tony, if you get a business degree, you can kind of go anywhere.
you he gave me that sage advice and I actually listened. And my dad's been a big influence in my life
and still is to this day. And yeah, so I actually started my career in banking. I graduated in 2001 from
Western and I was like, I'm broke into the banking field and I was really proud of that. So I was a
personal banker when I first started out helping people open checking accounts and get loans and
home equity and all these things that I was learning about. And I worked my way up because I had my
business management degree and I was a college graduate. I thought, well, I should naturally be
managing people and which is hilarious now. But that's what I did. And I became like a really young
branch manager, which was then old Kent bank and became fifth, third bank. And then I went to
national city bank, which became PNC. And I led two different teams through two different bank
mergers. I liken it to childbirth because you do it once and you forget it's painful and then you forget
and then you do it again. And so I led these teams through that. And that's where I started my career
for 13 years in retail banking.
Chris Hall (02:53.020) I love that. actually did a lot of stuff in banking as well. One of my first jobs
outside my grandparents restaurant was I was a bank teller for local bank and then also Bank of
America and also Wells Fargo. yeah, I started out in the banking industry as well. So that's great. So
and by the way, go Broncos, right? Go Broncos.
Toni Will (03:08.680) That's right. That's the Broncos. are the national champions right now for
Bronco hockey.
Chris Hall (03:17.700) That's awesome. that's really cool to have something so close. So how did you
transition into hockey? How did that become? I mean, it's not a natural step, obviously, from a branch
manager to hockey manager. So tell us a little bit how that kind of came about.
Toni Will (03:32.540) No, it's not. And I tell you, if I would have set out to be the general manager of a
professional hockey team in my hometown, it would have never happened. So the short answer is by
accident. So after I left banking, actually, I started to really get involved in the community when I was
kind of getting towards the tail end of my banking career. And I was getting involved in like mentor,
mentee programs and conferences that we hosted here in Kalamazoo. And somehow I got involved
with Southwest Michigan First, which sounds like a bank name, but is not. It's our economic
development agency. And they were bringing the Chamber of Commerce inside of this organization.
And they were looking for someone to lead the efforts. And they tapped me on the shoulder and asked
me. And I was like, sure. I didn't know a lot about that at all. Economic development, chambers of
commerce, what they really did. But I'm a courageous soul. So I took a leap of faith. And I went and
started this chamber effort up. And I loved what I did externally for small business, especially in my
hometown, advocating, doing ribbon cuttings and turning the dirt on groundbreaking networking and
things of that nature. But the culture inside the organization was toxic. And so I chose to, well, we
parted ways, I'll say it that way. And I've talked about it publicly many times, because the CEO that was
there at the time is no longer there now, but. I was, found myself in my mid thirties with three kids and a
husband and a mortgage. And, I was like, okay, what's next. And, I wasn't sure what I, what I wanted to
do. So what I wanted was less stress and less pressure. And I didn't want to lead and have a
community facing job. So you're probably asking yourself, then that doesn't sound like hockey. So I,
yeah, that was boy. Did I hit the target on that one?
Chris Hall (05:17.030) Nailed it.
Toni Will (05:24.650) So I applied for a job inside the Radisson Plaza Hotel, which is a marquee hotel
downtown Kalamazoo here. And I wanted, there was a job in Sydney, which is a high-end fashion
boutique. I would shop there only on sale, but they were looking for a store manager. I'm like, I should
do this for a while. And I was like, this will be great, know? I said, work the hours, whatever. And they
called me, HR called me and they said, Tony, you are way too overqualified for this job. I said, that's
fine, I know, like, I don't want a lot of pressure. Like, it's cool, we're good. They're like, nah, we're gonna
find you something different. I'm like, okay. So they called me back two or three weeks later, they're
like, we got it. I'm like, okay, what's that? And they said the Kalamazoo wings. I go, the hockey team?
And they were like, yeah. And I'm like, they're still around? And because I grew up here, I went to a
couple of games, but I didn't know they were still around. And they said, that's exactly the problem.
And I said, but you understand, and this is direct quote from this conversation, I don't know shit about
hockey. And they said, that's okay. They kind of laughed. And they said, we don't want someone on the
business side that knows hockey. We want someone that knows business. The head coach and the
director of hockey ops, they worry about hockey. We want someone that knows how to sell, knows
how to lead a sales team, is creative, and can rebuild this organization. And we think that's you. And I
said, huh, okay. I said, well, let me think about it. They're like, well, hang on, there's one more thing. I
said, yeah, what's that? They said, well, professional sports, I don't know, some people think it's super
lucrative. And I'm like, I have no, I'm like, I don't know. They're like, it's a 35 % pay cut from where
you're at right now. And I was like, huh. So I was like, okay, let me think about it. And then I went back
to one of my core values and I am definitely not driven by money. I'm driven by the mission first, money
second. And so I just said, you know what? I'm gonna say yes to the best job I never knew I wanted.
And here I am 11 years later.
Chris Hall (07:31.460) Now, did we call dad? Is dad a hockey fan?
Toni Will (07:34.380) He's not. My dad's a football and baseball fan and I always call my dad. I always
call him and say, hey, what do you think? And you know, he just, understands my personality and he's
like, you know, Tony, you love a challenge. So he's like, maybe you should do this. And that's.
Chris Hall (07:47.860) Yeah, you do. That's great. I love that. That's cool story. So that was going to
be one of my questions was like the operations side of it. How much do know about hockey? Things
like that. You kind of answer all those. So when you guys are scouting talent, doing contracts, are you
involved in that? is that more of the guys you had mentioned before, the coach and the director of
operations?
Toni Will (08:13.120) Right. So yeah, you're exactly right. So our head coach is also in minor league
hockey and let's say I'll explain the tiered, we're tiered system. So there's the NHL, the national hockey
league, the AHL, the American hockey league, which is also minor league hockey. And then the ECHL,
which is the league that Kalamazoo wings are in and we're AA men's professional hockey. And we're
affiliated with on our end at the AHL and the NHL with the Abbotsford and Vancouver Canucks. And so
we're developing these players to move up and down the system. So Joel Martin is our head coach and
he does, and he's our director of hockey operations. So he does all the recruiting and all the head
coaching and all of that. We are a pair. We work in tandem. And then me on the business side and in
the ECHL, 95%, there's 32 teams in our league now. 95 % of us are that model at this level.
Chris Hall (09:06.390) Okay. Oh, I like that. That's good. Yeah. I, you know, from coming from a
football background, you know, the GM is usually pretty intricate into the the scouting and things like
that, or at least in charge of the scouts. Do you guys have scouts? Do you guys have people that go
out and check these kids out in high school and college? Okay.
Toni Will (09:24.250) We do, yeah. And we just, yeah, then that's who Joel will work with directly to
start to find this talent.
Chris Hall (09:29.460) Okay. Now, so like with Joel, I know that he know when you first started that
wasn't your head coach, and then you had a head coach to step down, and then Joel came in. Were
you part of that situation as well? I mean, were you in sitting in on those meetings, you know, to decide
who was going to be the next head coach?
Toni Will (09:46.420) Yeah, so Nick Bootland was our head coach at the time and he went to Hershey
and he's still there. And Joel Martin actually, when I came on board, he was our goaltender. And so he
played for us and yeah. And so yes, I was involved in all of that. Yeah. And on the team level. And then
there's my responsibilities at the league level as a governor for the team. And so that's a whole other
responsibility that falls into my. per view on a day-to-day basis.
Chris Hall (10:17.620) Now, I know with that you were also the only female governor as well,
Toni Will (10:22.500) Yes. And, the only female. there's, there's a distinction to be made there. So
there's governors and there's alternate governors, the government. So, and people like, what, I'm not
the governor of the state of Michigan. So I like to point that out. Yeah. In pro sports, it's like a board of
directors, but we're called governors. And so, there's, there are alternate governors that are female.
Some, not many, but I'm the only female governor, which means I have the. the sole vote and power
over that for Kalamazoo. we're privately owned team. And so the owner of the team is like, Tony, we
trust you. You make any and all decisions for this. one of my, so I'm super passionate about diversity,
equity and inclusion because when I stepped through these doors 11 years ago, I didn't really
understand, like I wasn't coming in and thinking, I am woman, hear me roar. ripping my bra off and
setting it on fire. Like I didn't even really notice it until I was two or three years in and I'm in a board of
governors meeting and I'm like, my gosh, I have some work to do here to help lift women in sports up.
And so one of the things I accomplished was they never had a woman on the executive committee for
the board of governors. It was not an easy task, but four years ago I broke through that glass ceiling
and I sit amongst those eight individuals on the executive committee as well for the board of
governors.
Chris Hall (11:50.370) How do you navigate the challenge that that is? Because you had even
mentioned it in your prelude, which is you didn't come throwing the doors open, hear me roar, things
like that. But you still have to further the cause. You still want to, like you said, lift other women up, give
them opportunities, and so on. So how do you navigate upsetting the apple cart without making
everybody upset?
Toni Will (12:17.610) Yeah, I am. I mean, I'm a rebel. I'm a rebel spirit. I don't and I've always been a
leader. Like always. Like if my mom were still alive, she'd tell you I came out of the womb just bossing
people around. And I'm much more eloquent now and much different leadership style than when I was
a kid bossing my brother around. But yeah, I don't mind taking arrows. So, you know, I'm authentic and
I'm genuine. And that's how I I just, that's how I am. And I don't feel like I need to have too much
strategy behind it. I do need to have thick skin. I've implemented some things at the Kalamazoo wings
that have not, that have been popular to some and very unpopular to others like rainbow ice. We were
the first team ever in professional hockey to die our ice rainbow. And that was one of my passions. And
really about that, it was about diversity and inclusion for anyone to feel. safe coming to a hockey game.
wasn't just about LGBTQ plus, which is a part of that and important, but it's about all things, race,
gender, socioeconomic, um, abilities, things of that nature. And so I, we launched that in 2021 and holy
cow, did that cause some waves and, but that's okay. I'm okay because I feel like if, that's the kind of
work we're doing and we're coming at it authentic and genuine and altruistic in a sense, then we're
doing the right thing.
Chris Hall (13:41.400) Do think that, so like obviously Kalamazoo is not necessarily like Detroit. I
mean, it's not going to be, you know, as like left leaning or liberal or whatever you want to call it. You
know, so do you feel like that was well received? Do you feel like you maybe even gained some fans
that were hoping that someone would reach out to them and say, Hey, you're welcome here. Do you
feel like that? That's okay.
Toni Will (14:02.670) Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. We had a lot. mean, the internet, know, they love the
trolls love to come out. And there was a lot of that, but there was a lot more people that were like super
supportive. And we've sold that game out every year since. And regardless of what happens in pro
sports, cause you see, I mean, if you follow sports, you'll see the NFL or the NHL or, know, they'll pull
away from these initiatives. And I put a stake firm in the ground that regardless of that, we're still doing
this here in Kalamazoo.
Chris Hall (14:37.910) Well, I think that if the message is everybody's welcome, think that's a great
message. And I think that everybody should get behind that regardless of how they feel. I you know,
I'm a big proponent of like people just being able to be who they are. And so if the message is like, hey,
everybody, you need to accept all these people. Like, I can see how people will fight back on that
because, you know, we have a lot of closed minded people in this world. But if the the message is we
want people to feel welcome at a hockey game, then that's that's truly brilliant. And I think that people
should all get behind that. And I think it's, you know, it's interesting too, like, you know, you never, you
never know what's going on in someone else's body, you know, and you don't have any idea, you know,
what that would mean to somebody. It could be, it could be like for some people, it could be their, their
favorite day of the year. And so, you know what I mean? Like, and it's, and it causes, it's causing no
harm to anybody else. So good for you. Nice job. Yeah. Yeah.
Toni Will (15:27.570) Zero. Thank you.
Chris Hall (15:31.220) How is attendance since you've taken over? What are the numbers on what it
was when you got there and then what it is now?
Toni Will (15:41.270) Yeah, so average attendance, actually, this is a funny story. So when I walked in,
think, so we seat 5113 and the arena we're in now, we're actually building a brand new arena that's
opening in two years, downtown Kalamazoo. Thank you. Yes, I'm on that project as well. It's very, it's
privately funded, half a billion dollar arena going into downtown Kalamazoo. Yeah, yeah, pretty cool. So
we see 5113 right now. And when I came in, we were averaging around 2,100 over a 36 game season.
So it not great. And so over the, tent, my tenure, we've rate, mean, it's, pretty much, it's like this, a
straight line up and we're about 75 % occupancy on average. And we've won several awards over the
years for our attendance growth, revenue growth, community relations efforts, game theme
production, things of that nature. So yeah, we've been a straight. minus COVID. COVID was definitely a
giant hiccup for us, especially Michigan. We were dark that season, but that just, you know, how to
navigate those, that time was just a growing opportunity for a lot of ways for me, both personally and
professionally.
Chris Hall (16:53.110) man, I can only imagine what it's like to try to manage a community event, you
know, that happens every day, you know, in the middle of a COVID storm. So when it goes to the new
stadium, how many people are going to be seated in the new stadium?
Toni Will (17:07.240) About 6,500. And so the little different in there, cause Wings Event Center is 51
years old. And so it was built 1974 and it's like, I mean, the seats are still like orange and dark brown
and there's no sweets and it is a quintessential hockey barn. There's no bad seat in the house and it's
charming, but it's also 51 years old. So the new facility will have all different types of suites and seating
options and just different experiences. And we're not only are the Kalamazoo wings playing there, but
Western Michigan University men's hockey will be playing there as well as WMU's men's and women's
basketball.
Chris Hall (17:50.320) Looks great. good for you guys. That's a really good collaboration to make
sure you recover the revenue, especially since it's been private and all. That's great. That's very cool. I
was just going to ask you, too, is there any other professional sports teams that are sort of vying for
that entertainment dollar locally?
Toni Will (18:08.980) yeah, Netflix and the movie theater. That's about it.
Chris Hall (18:11.700) I don't know about you, but I've been to like one movie all year, so it's probably
more Netflix than anybody else.
Toni Will (18:21.050) Yeah, we do have, I should say this, we do have a college feeder baseball team
in the Northwoods League called the Kalamazoo Growlers. And so we actually do collaborations with
them, but you know, they're a different level of sport. And so we're the only professional sports team in
Kalamazoo, which isn't surprising because we're population 75,000. It's not normal to have a pro
sports team in the city the size of Kalamazoo.
Chris Hall (18:46.360) Absolutely. I live in a town of about 85,000 people, metro and then probably
$250,000 like within the county. And we don't have anything like that at all. I mean, we've tried to like
even try to get maybe like AAA baseball teams and yeah, so the fact that you guys even have
something that's lasted that long, mean, 50 plus years is incredible. So when it comes to, your, your life
and how you've transitioned, you do have a little bit of a health journey as well, correct? Tell me a little
bit about that.
Toni Will (19:14.150) I do, yeah. Yeah, so I mentioned during COVID, I took this opportunity when we
were dark in the 2020, 2021 season. I never really liked my relationship with alcohol. And I decided
during the beginning stages of COVID that I had this choice. I could either just keep on fighting myself
with this relationship with alcohol that I took up a lot of brain space and I wasn't happy with, or... I could
invest this time in myself and do something about it. So I chose a different framework to quit drinking,
because in 2016 and 17, I went through the AA route. And while I enjoy the community aspect of it, the
framework didn't really fit for my rebel spirit. I don't feel like I'm powerless over anything, quite frankly.
So I'm going to give anything a shot. And so I wanted to go a different route. And so I found this book
called this Naked Mind and quickly immersed myself in that alcohol-free community. And from there, I
decided that once I stopped drinking, I was gonna launch my own coaching business and get certified
to help other people remove substances from their lives. And I do professional development coaching
as well. I can't believe it's, I'll be six or five years, I'll call free in six weeks. So.
Chris Hall (20:40.970) Congratulations. That's awesome. I think that's so brave to not only do it, to
like do it in a way like AA is very much a proven model. But like I doesn't work for everybody. So I like
the idea that you're able to like tell people like, there's other ways to do it. You don't have to go to AA
meetings. And so The Naked Mind is a book that you read that guided you and we're gonna we're
gonna link to that in the description so that people can go check that out if they want to. So so how
How long did it take before, know, after reading the book that you're like, yeah, I'm just done, done. I'm
not going to do this anymore.
Toni Will (21:16.810) Yeah, I actually kind of, shocker, I did things kind of backwards. I don't do things
in a straight line. So where it started was I was at a girls weekend up North and normally I don't travel in
October because that's when we opened for hockey and I need to be in the arena. And because we
were dark, I was going up North and did this girls trip, quintessential middle-aged women white trip
where we, know, it's like, know, lattes and wine tours, yes, and bonfires and...
Toni Will (22:13.050) He was like, you, yeah, he goes, are you just saying that you've said that before?
And I'm like, no, I really mean it. And so the first two weeks I just white knuckled it and cause I'd been
sober before. So I'm like, I just didn't want to go back to AA. And so I was pretty miserable the first two
weeks, just emotionally felt like garbage. And then that's when I went to good old Google and I typed in
other frameworks to stop drinking besides AA. and that's where this naked mind popped up. So I
ordered, and it's by Annie Grace. So I ordered that book and I also ordered her 30 day alcohol
experiment book. And so once I started reading that, I found out she had a live group on Facebook
starting another 30 days in November of 2020. So that's when I really got into that material. So I did
two weeks on my own and jumped onto 30 more days. And so I lengthened, cause I wasn't sure, like I
still to this day don't say forever because I'm a rebel. And if I say forever, then I'm wanna break my own
rules. And so I just say I'm not drinking today, but wild horses couldn't drag me back. I mean, there's no
way.
Chris Hall (23:15.130) Right. I noticed that, you know, for me, I'm not a big drinker for the most part.
And I noticed for me that it's usually about the people that I'm around. You know, so like I, if I'm at
home, I don't pour a glass of wine. I don't, I don't make a whiskey or like that. And I, and I'm not saying
anything negative about people who do that. If that's who you are, that's great too. But I've never been
that way. But I did notice that like, you know, when I was with certain people, it was always let's put,
let's open a bottle of wine. Let's open a bottle of wine. And then when I was with other people, it was
like, you like, we're not drinking and that's fine too. So I personally haven't had any alcohol probably in
like eight or nine months. And only because I just sort of changed the people that I was around. And
that's so to me, I was going to say you so is that something that you've kind of had to do as well? You
had to kind of sort of change the people that you're around so that it's not such a, hey, let's open a
bottle of wine. Let's open a bottle of wine.
Toni Will (24:08.850) Yeah, well, part of the problem, yeah, I was that person. So if you and I were
hanging out, I was the instigator in every situation, Chris. So when you just take me out of the equation,
drink, Tony party time is what my friends called me. And so when you take Tony party time out I'm just
Tony, it's amazing. Like, so I was a big part of that instigation, but I did, know, drinkers like me
surrounded themselves with other drinkers. And so, yeah. Yes, my friendships definitely changed. And
I call it trigger people, but it's not that the people are bad. It's just that somewhere in my belief system,
in my brain, I made our relationship equate to drinking and having fun while drinking. And that was like
my number one reason or belief that I was drinking for fun. But yeah, so some of those relationships
certainly did change when I changed. But my priority was, I knew this was going one direction and it's
not good. So I was like, if I want to be my most authentic, high performing, high expectations on myself
woman, then this is my number one priority. I just can't moderate and I don't wanna moderate, but I
had cashed in all my drink tickets probably by my 30s. So I just had to stop and. and be careful, like
choose who's surrounding me, who's on my personal board of directors and build my own community,
build my own business. And I have all kinds of friends all over the world now because of it.
Chris Hall (25:43.680) So, so when it comes to like, you know, being in living in a sober life, one of
the things that I, you we had talked about is like, you know, building your friend group and having
things like that. But one of the other things is like, how do you navigate in the business world? So like,
you know, I'm sure you get a lot of business meetings and mixers and things like that. The one thing
that I noticed was, I don't, I don't really I don't really like drinking. It's not like a thing I enjoy that much,
so I really don't do it on my own. when I go to a business mixer, it feels a little bit awkward to not have a
drink in your hand. tell me how you navigate that, and maybe that could help some other people with
that same problem.
Toni Will (26:19.230) Yeah, absolutely. Listen, and if any world is saturated in alcohol, it is a sports
world. So I mean, and I travel all over the country to different hockey arenas and board of governors
meetings and all kinds of different events. So all-star games, hockey hall of fame functions. So I just list
those out so the audience can get an idea of how many rooms I walk into that are alcohol fueled. And
when I go to conferences, they're often sponsored sports, sports conferences sponsored by like
Anheuser-Busch or something like that. So it literally is everywhere. So the first thing I would say is like,
when I say to you, Hey Chris, let's have a drink. The first thought is, well, that means alcohol, right?
Just the word drink, but all drinks aren't alcohol. And so if we just stop and think about that, I can go,
you and I could literally, if you said, Tony, let's go, let's go have a drink. I want to talk about podcasting
with you because we're both podcasters. I'd be like, yeah, great. And I would still go and meet you and
I would order a drink. It just doesn't have alcohol in it.
Chris Hall (27:31.160) Right, right. Yeah. I think a lot of people like, you know, what I'll see is they'll
order like a soda water with a lemon because it like looks like a drink kind of like that kind of a thing.
Like, how do know it doesn't have vodka in it? Are you, is that somewhat similar to what you're talking
about? Or do you just like, no, I just like, I'm having a Diet Coke, you know, or whatever.
Toni Will (27:49.760) I've done both. So there's been different stages. So I didn't start out, my
mindset is much, you know, I've grown, I've become more comfortable in my choice not to drink
alcohol over the years. So have I done the club soda with lemon? Yes. Have I done, have I just had Coke
or tea or water or whatever? Absolutely. What I had to figure out was how was I going to have that
conversation? Did I need to have the conversation and how did I want to frame it? because why do I
have to explain if I'm not drinking? If I told you I was quitting smoking, you would be like, Tony, that's
awesome. Congratulations. No one says, what? Why are you quitting smoking? But with drinking, it's
like record scratch, you know? And you feel like, you know, or here's another thing. I didn't, I stopped
eating meat for a couple of years, cause I wanted to see how it feel to be vegetarian or vegan. I was
kind of on this plant slant thing and. And I'm like, I didn't stop eating meat because I was a meataholic. I
just did it for health and wellness reasons. And so choosing not to drink was, you although I didn't like
my relationship with alcohol and I do believe I had a problem, it was a health and wellness decision.
Cause I just wanted to live healthier. So I, yes, I did all the things and for like something simple, I would
just say, I'm not drinking tonight or I'm working out in the morning or, you know, I cashed in all my drink
tickets. I would use a little bit of humor or sometimes I just say, yeah, it was time for me to take a break.
Chris Hall (29:23.540) I when I was in high school, actually didn't drink most of my high school. I say
most of it. So because there's people out there, be like, you drank. But I didn't drink most of my high
school. And people would be like, are you drinking? And I'm like, no, I'm not drinking. And they're like,
why are you not drinking? I mean, even in high school, that was like, why are you at a party if you're not
drinking? And I would say, like, I'm like this normally. I don't really need anything. So that would be my
answer. I'm like this normally. I do think that's a challenge for a lot of people. think that the people who
are maybe on the edge and waffling, trying to good, trying to hold steadfast to what they're trying to
do, I think those are the places where they're going to have the most, there's just this social stigma of
fitting in. So I think it's helpful that they hear from you and you are mixing at the highest levels. and
you're doing it. So good for you. That's great.
Toni Will (30:22.740) Yeah, and I would say to those individuals who are, you know, feeling like they're
sober curious, but they're afraid that you're not alone. There are a lot of people that feel the same way
you do. And there's so many of us out there now who are working towards this movement. And the
latest research from Gallup shows drinking is down the most it's been since 1996 in America. So we're
moving in the right direction.
Chris Hall (30:46.990) Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that that same research shows like Gen Z's and
it's like not they're not drinking. Like Gen Z is like, nah, we don't need it. So now they might be on
weed, but for sure.
Toni Will (30:55.750) Yeah, that's a whole other thing. Yep, I can help with that too. It's all this work,
it's thought work, because we attach these beliefs to, we give alcohol all kinds of jobs in our lives. And
so it's just working on like, maybe I could think about this differently and applying it.
Chris Hall (31:16.930) Well. Well, have a back like right now I'm a financial advisor been doing for
almost a decade now. But before that, for another decade of my life, I was a pharmaceutical rep. And
you know, there's just so much pharma and alcohol advertisements. It's like they've done a
phenomenal job of making it no problem at all to stick whatever you want in your body, as long as it's
been on TV.
Toni Will (31:40.230) Yeah. yeah. You get me going on big pharma or big alcohol. I, I, big tobacco. It's,
it's money and it's like, it's, it's profits over people. So.
Chris Hall (31:51.910) Yeah. Yeah. so you have done something that's really cool. That's something I
think is, you know, maybe I don't know if it's a bucket list item, but I think it would be cool if I, if I had a
message that was resonating, but you've done a Ted talk. Can you tell me a little bit about your Ted
talk?
Toni Will (32:06.540) I did, I did, it's been almost a year. I did a TedX and here in Kalamazoo. And
again, it wasn't on my bucket list. So you're noticing this narrative. If I were really chasing something, I
probably wouldn't get it. And so that's kind of my coaching is, you know, hold things loosely because
you never know what's going to fall in your lap. So yeah, I had a friend that said, you should apply for
this. And I said, I guess I will. And I took five minutes and filled out the application and, and, they
reached out to me, they're like, yeah, we'd love to have you. Meanwhile, I meet my fellow speakers and
they have been trying for 10 years to land a TEDx or TED talk. so it was interesting. I kind of felt like a
little bit of an imposter, but not, you know, it was just tricky, but I also know like what is interesting. The
fact that my day job is interesting. And what's also interesting is that I choose not to drink. So I took
those two messages and talked about my six leadership pillars. and being a minority in sports,
choosing to live alcohol free and how to adopt my six leadership pillars professionally and personally.
So people can learn how to make change. And so they're inspired, but they can also take what I'm
sharing with them and put it in their own lives.
Chris Hall (33:22.820) Where did you come up with these six leadership pillars? noticed that, you
that you, you know, you talk about that in other things as well. Where did that come from and how did
you develop that?
Toni Will (33:33.440) So yeah, Western Michigan University was my alma mater and they called me
after, I think I'd been at the K-Wings for about three years, maybe a little more. And they said, Tony, will
you come speak to some of our college students about what you do and how you turn the K-Wings
around? And I'm like, how I turn the, I mean, like we were in the middle of it, you know? And I said, sure,
I'd love to talk to the college students. But I was like, I sat there at my desk and I go, how did I turn this
around? And so. But that's what I called in my TEDx and is unconscious, unconscious competence.
Like I just, follow my gut and knew what to do. I just didn't have language to it. So I, on a yellow post-it
note, I sat there one day and I just wrote out these six things that I did. And I carried that around in my
purse. I don't know why I use my notes app in my phone. I'm old school, I guess it's in there now, but,
and I would present on it periodically for about four or five years. And then. And then I was like, when I
stopped drinking, was like, I should just do what these leadership pillars are over here. And so, yeah,
that's what I did. And that's what I taught two personal stories and tied it all together with my six
leadership pillars with the overarching or the story arc of your perceived weaknesses or actually
strengths.
Chris Hall (34:50.410) And and to add to your accolades you're also Working on a book. Is that right?
Toni Will (34:56.410) Yeah, the manuscript is going to be done this month. So yeah, it's called not the
norm. you know what? I work very fast. And by that, well, and number one, I go to the experts. So I
hired a ghostwriter to write my book. Yeah. Yeah. It's an investment, but I, want things done at a very
high level. And, and I just, and I, I do paid professional speaking now and, I do a lot of different things
and so I was like, no, I'm gonna hire the best. So I went to the expert.
Chris Hall (35:29.260) Right. I love that. That's so good. I think that, you know, there are a lot of
people out there who have a story that they would like to tell, but they don't know how to hire a
ghostwriter or they maybe they don't want to afford it or they can't afford it. But I think like, you know,
with what we've got going on with AI and ghostwriting is like really surging right now too, I think. I think
people realize that they can get their message out, but they don't have to write every word. And I think
that's pretty cool. So good job. I'm glad you shared that with me because I think a lot of people who do
get ghost writers, they're probably going to be like, know, sly about it. I mean, if they get point blank
asked, how do you do that? Then they might say something, but I think a lot of people would not
volunteer that. So thank you for doing that.
Toni Will (36:10.320) Well, Alyssa, I'm glad you asked because whenever I do more interviews, once
the book comes out, I'm just gonna be upfront about it because I don't think there's any shame in that.
And that's why it's like, yeah, why, I don't know why it became a stigma, but I'm so anti-stigma. I'm like,
if there's a stigma on something, I'll just talk about it. Yeah, give me a stigma, let's go.
Chris Hall (36:30.640) That's your favorite subject. I love that. So what is this book going to be
about?
Toni Will (36:41.690) So it's called Not The Norm and it's taking my TEDx and expanding it out. So
it's like part business, part personal stories and how I made these changes and give tips and tools for
others to take whatever they wanna change in their life and equip them with how to do it.
Chris Hall (37:03.720) Yeah, I love that. I mean, you're really big on recreating yourself at midlife. And
I feel like this is really kind of like really falls in line with what you're already doing. already doing
coaching, you're already doing speaking, you got a book now coming. I think it's all really, you know,
very helpful for people who are also trying to recreate their life. I'm 53. And you know, I think when I
was probably even just 45, you know, I thought to myself, like, you know, I'm gonna make it to 70. And
that's gonna be about it. you know, for me. when I got to 53, I was like, wow, it's really coming up, you
know. But I don't know, there's just like this thing that kind of clicked over in my head that was like, you
know, I see people that are, you know, in their 70s, 80s, 90s, you know, often now. And like I have
clients, you know, who are I had a client in my office yesterday, who's like 76. He looks like he's about
60. You know what mean? Like, I really do think that like, and one of reasons I have healthy wealth is
because I think that you can't truly be wealthy unless you also healthy. And that's part of your journey
as well, which is really cool But I feel like there are people who look 72 and there are people who do not
look 72 and a lot of that comes down So like how they treat their body One of the things I like to say is
like who I'm gonna look like when I'm 70 has everything to do with the choices that I'm making now So
if I'm going to the gym, I'm going for walks, you know, I'm trying not to too much sugar You know all
those kinds of things those are gonna mold me not today, but the person I'm going to be when I'm 70.
So I think that the recreating yourself at midlife is just really resonates with me because I feel like I'm
there too. So.
Toni Will (38:33.780) 100%. There's some great work out there. I don't know if you've read Peter
Attia's book, Outlive, but it is, yeah, I would, you would love it. And he has a podcast called The Drive.
And the notion of the book is health span versus lifespan. And the choices we're making now are really
gonna impact the last decade of our lives. So let's make choices in our early 50s, late 40s. to afford us
to be able to lift a carry-on suitcase into the air, you know, in an airplane at age 90 if we want to. And
yeah, and we're making those choices right now. And so I have a calendar on my wall. It's a, don't know
if you've heard of 4K weeks, but essentially if you lived 80, you're living 4,000 weeks. And it's this
really cool, my husband calls it my death calendar, but basically each week you hit a dot on it, but it
shows you like how much life you have left and it can. if you lived a mine goes to a hundred though,
cause I'm to live to a hundred I decided. And so, yeah. So I'm like, well, I've got, I'm 47. So I'm, you
know, not quite halfway there, but it helps me decide what do I want to spend my time on? I want to
write a book. Let's do it. Hell yeah. I got all this time left according to my death calendar. So let's rock
and roll. So it's just a reminder. So I really like Peter's work.
Chris Hall (39:47.410) That's cool. It's called outlive And I like what you said like I don't know the
phrase I'm gonna ask you to say it again, which is like life lifespan versus what it was it Hell span. Yes,
that's really cool. That's a good idea to talk about it in that way Yeah, I love that. Thank you for that.
What so moving on to like you also have a podcast yourself What do you mostly talk about on your
podcast?
Toni Will (39:58.720) HealthSpan.
Toni Will (40:15.360) So my podcast is called WomenIn... and I have men and women on my podcast.
And essentially what it is is about lifting women up and telling stories about who are the women that
were influential in your life. The first half of the podcast and the episodes we talk about whatever is
relevant to my guest bio. And I just go down all kinds of rabbit holes and ask questions I find interesting
about them. And then we talk about some women in their lives and talk about... You know, like books
you're reading, what you're learning, what you're passionate about, what motivates you, what have you
changed your mind about? It's a conversation that just happens to be recorded.
Chris Hall (40:51.520) Yeah, no, I love that. That's I'm ultimately that's what I'm trying to do here, too
I'm just a very curious person. I'm very interested in things and so I feel like you know I have a pretty
good knack for like finding a question when someone is speaking I go I think there's a good question in
there. So I think that's you know, that's what it's about I think it's awesome just trying to dig in and have
a good conversation. So Now you have a program coming up in October. You want to tell me a little bit
about it?
Toni Will (41:17.080) Yeah, so we talked a lot about how I alcohol-free. October's, sober October. So
dry January is always popular because that's really spread around the world. And sober October is
probably right up there and not far behind. So I decided to, I'm going to host a group in October and
sober is in all caps. So here's the reason why I've been coached. I've coached hundreds of clients all
over the world for thousands of hours in this space over the last almost five years. And so there's kind
of two methodologies that are floating around out there. There's AA, which is all about stopping the
behavior. And it kind of stops there. And then with this naked mind, totally different framework, which
is more like you can keep drinking while you're doing this work, like mindful drinking. And then you kind
of work into taking a break. then if you choose to drink during any period of time, it's not a relapse, it's
a data point. It's all about learning. So it takes out the shame and the stigma. I think there are
philosophies that are good in both, but I think there's something else missing there. And I think the
equation is stop the behavior, then do the thought work. And so for my group in the 31 days in October,
you're coming to this group and we're just not drinking for 31 days. And we're gonna see what
thoughts come up during that 31 days, but we're not trying to do both at the same time. We're just
looking to build that confidence. do some things alcohol free or sober that you wouldn't normally do.
Like you and I talked about, if someone invited you out to the bar, ooh, that might be uncomfortable.
Let's just try it, see what happens and see what thoughts would bubble up. We'll put those thoughts,
we'll deal with them, but later let's just get you through the experience first. And so we're just 31 days
of not drinking and to build that confidence. And so that's what we're doing in October. I usually bring
in an author that's written a book in this space, we call it Quit Lit. And so I bring an author and we'll
read the book and have the author share and we'll do a Q &A with the author and then we do weekly
zoom calls. And so yeah, it's what I would call a boutique group. I usually have 15 to 20 people in it and
it's super affordable at $99.
Chris Hall (43:22.260) that's great. And then, so how do people get signed up for that? be something
to do on your website. Okay. Okay. And so, you do speaking engagements, you're doing coaching, like
your coaching is your coaching more centered around business? Is it more centered around sobriety?
Is it a mixture of the two?
Toni Will (43:27.200) Yeah, TonyWill.com.
Toni Will (43:40.300) Yes, so I do, I have two different tracks. do essentially what you said. So I would
say half my clients right now are looking to remove alcohol or reduce. And I do help people reduce their
intake. Usually people that wanna reduce end up removing eventually, but I do think that needs to be
celebrated and not skipped over. So I do substance coaching and then I do professional development
coaching too, generally for people who are looking to make a change because I've changed careers
three times. over my 25 years of working and they're in three very different fields. And so not being
afraid to do that and take the leap. And I started a business, which I've been doing both now for almost
five years, my day job and my coaching business. So how can we make that happen? And take some of
those limiting beliefs that people have sometimes like, there's no way I can do that and say, yeah, you
can, we can figure it out and just help get them there.
Chris Hall (44:35.120) That's great. I love that. So I am so excited to have you on the show. This was
such a fun interview for me. I really enjoy your story. I enjoy what you're doing. I think it's really good. Is
there anything that you would like to speak about that I haven't asked you about?
Toni Will (44:53.870) No, well there was one thing I thought you might ask me being a former athlete,
but I don't know if I can't remember if it in the notes or not, but I've done two Ironmans too. So...
Chris Hall (45:03.350) So yes, OK, so tell me more about that. I do want to talk about that. it was in
the show notes. And so we kind of started talking about your health journey. And we went to the
sobriety side. But definitely want to talk about the other part of your health journey. So tell me, how
does someone get to an Iron Man?
Toni Will (45:21.240) Well, in my case, there's four different distance triathlons. So there's sprint,
Olympic, half Ironman and full Ironman. So I started at the sprint level. I was 29 years old when I started
my first kind of into this sport. And boy, once you do it, you kind of get bit by the bug. so for the next
decade, I worked up to the longer distance races. And so I did my first Ironman in 2014. And if people
aren't aware what an Ironman is, it's a 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and then you run a marathon, 26.2
miles, and you have 17 hours to complete it. And so the first one I did, I wasn't drinking, no, maybe that
was, anyways, I was drinking. Anyways, when I was, not drinking during the Ironman, but at one point I
was sober and trained for it too. That would be a whole new level for us, whole new level. But. Yeah, so
I finished my first one in Louisville, Kentucky. was like hundred degrees that day. And it was insane. 13
hours and 56 minutes. And then I did it again three years later in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And again, it
was hot in the upper nineties and 15 hours and 20 minutes. And at that one, was 39 years old. And I
knew when I crossed the finish line, I was like, yep. This part of my chapter and book is done and I
stepped away from triathlon and I'm really proud of it. It was hard, but I'm glad I did it.
Chris Hall (46:44.140) Yeah. Now, how did you get into though? Was part of that journey? Was that
part of the journey? Were you overweight at some point?
Toni Will (46:51.080) Yeah, I wrote a blog, was Tubby Tony. I love that alliteration. yeah, when I had
my...
Chris Hall (46:56.530) I wanted you to say that. I didn't want to say that. I wanted you to say that.
Toni Will (47:02.230) I do it. Tuffy Tony. She was, she was funny. Uh, there's Tony party time. There's
Toby Tony. Yeah. I wrote a blog out of my website, but then there's some pictures on there. But yeah,
when I had my, so my kids are 23, 21 and almost 19 and, I was overweight before I got pregnant, but
then I really took these pregnancies seriously. And by that, I mean, I ate a lot of onion rings and I didn't
need to. So, um, I was really overweight. when I, after I had my son, just really was like, don't, it kind of
similar to my alcohol story. Like I don't like how this feels. I want to change this. So I'm going to learn
how. And that started my fitness journey. That's never stopped since then. And I, and I love to stand at
the bottom of a proverbial mountain and look up at the top and say, how do I get there? And I'm going
to figure it out no matter how many times it takes me to try and go up and down. to do it. And so I just
really enjoy a challenge. And I found too, cause I often get asked, how do you have the confidence to
do this stuff? And it's through just setting goals and like I start small and then you achieve the goal and
you build confidence and then you make the goal a little harder. and so I set a one year vision
worksheet every year and do these goals that I have and to be more confident and try the next hard
thing, like writing a book or whatever.
Chris Hall (48:16.720) I love that. So in one of my former lives, I put on alumni football games. So that
guys in their 20s, 30s and 40s put full gear on and go play against their old school rivals. I actually did
a game in Ypsilanti, Michigan. So yeah, so we were up there a couple of times. Great area, loved it a lot.
But anyway, we had a thing that we would These guys, some of these guys hadn't moved in 20 years.
And so we had a thing that we would share with them. was, it was someone else's thing, but it's called
the couch to 5k. And it just really shows how you can get off the couch and within just a very few
months, you could be, you know, running a 5k. And so we would promote that to our players saying,
you've got, you cannot just show up the day of the game and act like you're going to be okay. It's not
going to be okay. So I think the incremental steps is important. think having the design is important.
think for me in my business world, I try really hard to be thoughtful about what I'm doing next. Again,
with our health, what we're doing now works out 20 years from now. But what we're doing with our
time right now really works out three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now.
So yeah, that's cool that you did that. That's really cool. So would you recommend an Iron Man to other
people?
Toni Will (49:34.540) Yeah, I would. mean, I think it's, character building. mean, you, you, you got to, I
hired a coach, I believe all, I mean, in anything, not just Ironman, but like, not just cause I'm a coach,
but I think we all need coaches in one way, shape or form. But for the Ironman, both times I hired a
coach and I committed a year of training leading up to the race. So, but it teaches you a lot of things,
cause I can go back and draw on that for when I'm in challenging times and say, okay, Tony, you did
something really hard. You can get through. fill in the blank because in drawing off that experiences,
cause that marathon was no joke.
Chris Hall (50:09.870) You know, I actually coach football and one of the things I tell kids all the time
is like said, you know, this is going to be hard, but you were built to do hard things. So I think that's, you
know, people need to know that are listening right now that things are hard, but you were built to do
hard things. You're able to do it. You can do it if you want to try to do it. So I think that's a really cool.
And I think you've proven that over and over over again. Like, you know what I mean? You're like, I don't
know how to do this. So I'm just going to go learn how to do it. I don't know how to do this. So I'm
going to go learn how to do it. is very cool. besides the book, besides Silver October, is there anything
else on your agenda? Any other mountains you want to climb in the next few years?
Toni Will (50:47.740) No, I do host my own conference every year. So that's coming up. It'll coincide.
It's called Empower. It's with the book launch in March. I did it last year, Inaugurately in the middle of
hockey season. But it's a small conference that I do host in my hometown, which is really important to
me. So I'm going to be doing that again this year. that'll be, that's the next, launching the book along
with the conference in the middle of hockey season again.
Chris Hall (51:14.380) Nice. What is the conference about?
Toni Will (51:16.370) So it's called Empower Her. It's about, I bring women in that are looking for
professional and personal development. And oftentimes in conferences, what we see is two things.
One, they're usually gigantic and super expensive, and they're usually designed for specific lines of
business, like sports conference or a financial advisor conference or money conference, but it's never
just all lines of business or professions specific to women. So. That's what I'm doing. And then I pair it
with the hockey game. So at the end of our full day conference, then we go to a Kaywings game and
then I'll do a live podcast after the hockey game with a guest and they'll get to watch that and do all
that too. So yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Chris Hall (52:01.960) I love that. love that. Well, so if you haven't already heard it a few times, you
need to go to TonyWill.com and see what she's up to, because she's always got something going on
for sure. So I am so thankful that we got a chance to talk. I'm excited about this episode. I think it's
probably one of my favorite episodes so far. So thank you for your time, and thank you for what you're
doing out there. It's really cool.
Toni Will (52:23.900) Yep. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And you need to come on Women In.
Chris Hall (52:28.180) Yeah, absolutely. I would love to. actually, one of the things I'm working on
myself is I'm trying to get on, I'm not trying to, I haven't done it yet, but I'm thinking that I want to get
on podcast as, you know, for my profession as well, just to, you know, because I think I have a lot of
knowledge in this space. So yeah, that's really cool. I definitely would love to be on your podcast.
Thank you for the invitation.
Toni Will (52:52.250) Yeah, the emails coming your way. I said the emails coming your way after we're
done recording.
Chris Hall (52:57.640) OK, all right, sounds good. All right. So I will link to your website. Is there any
other things that you would like me to link to? So people are listening. They say, I want to hear more
about that. Is your website sort of just a catch-all for everything you're doing? OK, good.
Toni Will (53:13.610) Yeah, all everything's on there. All my social media is on there. They can click on
there. They can find me anywhere. That's TonyWill.com and my TedX is on there. So it's all there.
Chris Hall (53:22.770) Very cool. Awesome. So we'll definitely link to that. And then I'm also going to
link to the books that you mentioned, The Naked Mind and Outlive. So I'm going to link to those books
as well. So, all right. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you to everyone who's listening and
we really appreciate your support. Our subscriber growth has just been going crazy lately and we're
very thankful that you're enjoying what I'm doing because I really enjoy doing it. And you you guys
subscribing to my Podcast makes me feel like I'm doing something that's worthwhile for someone
besides myself. So thank you for that. Uh, you know, share this with your friends too.