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Humanising IT: We Need to Talk About IT is the podcast for IT leaders, service management professionals, and digital transformation teams who know that great IT is about more than process, tools, and frameworks.
Hosted by Katrina Macdermid and Wesley Eugene and brought to you by HIT Global, this podcast explores how to make IT service management more human, more effective, and more relevant in a world shaped by experience, AI, and constant change.
Each episode dives into the real conversations happening across modern IT, including:
- IT service management (ITSM)
- Human-centred design in IT
- ITIL and experience-led service management
- Digital employee experience
- Service desk and support leadership
- IT transformation and organisational change
- Humanising AI and modern service design
If you work in IT and care about creating services that actually work for the people who use them, this podcast is for you.
Whether you’re a CIO, IT leader, service manager, consultant, support professional, or transformation lead, Humanising IT: We Need to Talk About IT will challenge outdated thinking and help you rethink what better IT service really looks like.
Expect:
- Honest conversations
- Fresh perspectives on ITSM
- Practical insights you can apply
- Thought leadership from experienced voices in the industry
- A more human view of IT, service and experience
Subscribe to Humanising IT: We Need to Talk About IT for new episodes, expert insights, and modern thinking on the future of IT service management.
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Learn more about Humanising IT™ training and certification: https://www.hitglobal.services/podcast/
[00:00:00]
[00:00:05] Speaker: Well,
[00:00:05] Hello, I'm back in, uh, the studio, and I have once again the amazing opportunity to talk with, I guess I could say, two equally amazing gentlemen. One we've already met, that's Chris Barrett, and one that we're introducing is, uh, Paul Farrow. Paul, good afternoon. How are you? And if you could introduce yourself, where you work, and what do you do?
[00:00:31] Speaker 2: Great to, uh, see you both. I wish I could be there in the studio with you. Uh, um, I'm head of IT service at the, uh, Treasury, uh, in the UK. Um, uh, I work, uh, out of the Darlington Economic Campus in the northeast, but you know, I spend a fair bit of time, uh, you know, down in Westminster and look after our, um, internal platforms.
[00:00:47] Uh, um, uh, you know, Treasury being a, uh, policy, uh, based department. Uh, but, you know, really thrilled to be here both and, uh, um, uh, you know, cognizant of the, uh, the amount of expertise, uh, there in the studio today.
[00:00:56] Speaker: Thank you. And Paul, I'll ask you first, and I'll, I'll ask Chris as well. Um, you, You manage IT...
[00:01:03] It, it's interesting that you say IT service, not IT service management. I, I did notice that. Uh, and I'm, I'm curious before I do ask the question, why is... why don't you have management at the end? Is that-
[00:01:13] Speaker 2: So, uh, y- yeah, I think, you know, it's probably to allow me to wear a number of hats.
[00:01:17] Speaker: Right.
[00:01:18] Speaker 2: So I am responsible for IT service management.
[00:01:21] Speaker: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:21] Speaker 2: Um, I also look after, you know, product teams, the pr- practice, uh, in the, uh, the Treasury. Um, uh, and, uh, you know, a, a myriad of other things. So ITSM is part of what I do.
[00:01:30] Speaker: Right.
[00:01:30] Speaker 2: Um-
[00:01:30] Speaker: Nice ...
[00:01:31] Speaker 2: uh, yeah.
[00:01:32] Speaker: Hmm. Good. That, that... 'Cause, uh, I keep meaning to ask you actually, 'cause I've, I've had the opportunity to go to your office at Westminster, and, uh, every time I, uh, go to ask Paul why you don't have management.
[00:01:39] So very good, good answer. Thank you, Paul. So in your role, and as we know, IT service management is complex, it's, it's hard. What pressure do you face in IT service management?
[00:01:55] Speaker 2: I think, y- you know, probably the pressure that most people don't see, uh, is not so much about process. It's making defensible trade-offs.
[00:02:06] Um, I think most of us will recon- uh, c- you know, aware of the cost, quality, time triangle when you're, you're looking to deliver projects. Um, uh, I find that a lot of time in IT service management, you get, um, decisions that sit between control, speed, and outcomes. Um, and it's very hard, y- you know, if not impossible, to try and optimize all three.
[00:02:24] We've gotta decide where to accept risk, y- you know, where we need to slow things down and take a, a bit more of a step, uh, and where to speed up. Um, and then we layer in that, y- you know, in an environment where we're, uh, got suppliers aligned to contracts, um, we've got governance and legislation that might prioritize being able to audit things, um, uh, you know, and then legacy systems that constrain what we can do, the choices that we have.
[00:02:46] Um, so, you know, really for me, it's around those trade-offs. It's, uh, you know, we can't create perfect systems, but it's trying to make, uh, y- you know, imperfect decisions, uh, transparently and accountably.
[00:02:57] Speaker: And, and yes, this is a plug for my book, but that's exactly what my new book says, Paul, is that the distortion of experience, it's very hard to create a, a good experience in a complex system that is complex because of, of technical debt and other things.
[00:03:13] But because we've got regulatory requirements, governance, uh, so much, it's very, very difficult to do that. Um, and I think that that's where a lot of, um, our users don't really appreciate or understand, and sometimes we can't give them a great experience. Um, unfortunately, that's just how it is. Yeah. Uh, Chris, from where you sit and from your level, what pressure do, um, IT, does IT service management face?
[00:03:41] Speaker 3: I'll go back to that tr- now back to that translation layer again. Translation. Yeah. Or back to demonstrating the value. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm fascinated with Paul there. You've got, uh... You're making decisions, you're making priority calls. You're probably eating on a cost basis, a customer experience basis or, or a value basis.
[00:03:55] 'Cause what, what I'm talking about here is the layer of, uh, translation between that operation, the IT services, and value to the organization. Now, it doesn't have to be a, a, a PE, portfolio company. That can easily be a public sector organization that measures its own value. So you'll be making those value calls.
[00:04:11] I'd, I'd be fascinated to hear how value is part of that discussion. How is that part of the decision-making process?
[00:04:19] Speaker 2: Uh, so I think that's a really good point, and, you know, there's probably a spectrum across government. Um, uh, you, you know, I, you know, talked, uh, you know, a bit on the Green Book previously.
[00:04:28] But, you know, i- in government, you really, that's between the green and magenta books. We've got a whole range of colored books in government. Um, the Green Book's more about, you know, the early side on, you know, what we're going to do, how we prioritize investments, what the... You know, and government will look at that value, not in terms of a bit dial like you might do in a private organization, but more in terms of is the cost value for money.
[00:04:48] What are the societal outcomes that we're intending to produce? Um, uh, the magenta book is there, you know, about making sure that we follow up and, you know, have achieved what we intend to achieve. This becomes a lot more complex in some of the policy-driven departments, I think, in central government, where we're not delivering citizen-facing services, et cetera.
[00:05:07] A- And if you look at those policy-driven departments, you know, actually, what, you know, what is the product that we're producing? You know, where's the value that's being delivered? And a lot of the time, that's in decisions, uh, decisions and analysis. So for me, it's about, well, how does IT enable us to make more effective decisions?
[00:05:23] How does that improve the outcomes of those decisions, the speed to those decisions, um, and the quality of those decisions? Um, and, you know, I'm not sure that, you know, there's an effective framework really to, uh, you know, dashboard that effectively. And so it makes some of the value conversations very difficult.
[00:05:40] Most of that still roots around cost, um, uh, and, uh, you know, what the, um, uh, how much of the budget we're taking up
[00:05:48] Speaker: And is that in line with-
[00:05:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got my mind racing there, Paul, 'cause there's, uh, there's a translation layer there that probably, uh, yeah, we talk about EBITDA, if we talk about, you know, private companies and, uh, and investment scenarios and hold periods.
[00:05:59] For public sector, that's different, so you're gonna have different value triggers, different value metrics, things that will be useful if it was standard across the piece, uh, and whether it's UK government or beyond. But an understanding of this is what value means, uh, this is a bigger pull on value than, um, X versus Y, and then you've got something material to actually make decisions on.
[00:06:17] Otherwise, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of opinion in there. There's lots of... I can imagine in, uh, in certain departments, who shouts loudest or what the current zeitgeist actually is. So pulling back to something that is a, a value accounting standard but for, um, citizen-facing decisions and also policy-facing decisions would actually be something hard to fall back on rather than actually going through that, "Yeah, how much value are we getting out of this, this piece of IT versus this piece of IT or this program versus this program?"
[00:06:45] That's gonna be incredibly hard without that. So yeah, no, my mind started racing there too. Yeah.
[00:06:48] Speaker: It'd be- Correct. Different- ... absolutely intriguing, wouldn't it? To- Absolutely. To work that out. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Paul, we talked about, um, that you, your background, um, behavioral psychology And yet here you are running an IT department.
[00:07:03] Interesting. How does that help you?
[00:07:07] Speaker 2: Um, yeah, so I, I, I guess for context, I, I, I, I graduated in psychology many years ago now, but it's always been something that stuck with me. Um, I've had a, a, you know, an interest in user design, in how we nudge people through design to do certain things and, you know, the impact on that around us, um, uh, as it were.
[00:07:24] Um, uh, yeah, I think a lot of that was probably piqued, you know, A, by my degree, you know, by some of the pop culture, um, uh, podcasts and books out there like Freakonomics. Um, but also, y- you know, by the work of Don Norman, um, who, uh, you know, some affectionately refer to as the grandfather of user design these days.
[00:07:39] Not quite sure how he'd feel about that, uh, and all that. Um, there's a great concept that, you, you know, and I think we see this in many areas, but it, it... that he coined and, uh, takes his name, but Norman doors. Um, uh, and if you're familiar with this, uh, you know, once you see it, it's a bit like the veil has been lifted and I cannot see them, go anywhere without seeing them now.
[00:07:57] But in theory, a door should be really simple. Um, you, you go up to the building, you open the door, you go in. Shouldn't have to think about it. But frequently we'll find doors that are designed, uh, where the, uh, you know, Don Norman called these affordances and signifiers, but basically, you know, how the door looks, how it...
[00:08:12] you assume it should work, you know, what signs there are around to tell you how it works. Good design sh- you should be intuitive. You should be able to see the handle, know that you pull it, walk in and open the doors. There are some doors in many of the buildings that I work in that have a handle each side, but only open one direction.
[00:08:30] Uh, you know, they're... you go up to the door, you go to push it, doesn't work, you've got to pull it. Go along any high street, you'll see this, and I think we see this in IT, um, uh, frequently. Things are not necessarily designed with the way that they work, and then we have to build more and more signage around them to tell you how to operate things.
[00:08:48] Speaker: Absolutely. And as I said to you before, I had the opportunity to meet Don Norman, um, when we were in India, and he's, he's a very interesting character and, um, of course, embarrassingly, I asked if I could have a selfie with him. And he... I wouldn't say he... He didn't say no, but he said he, he wouldn't look at the camera.
[00:09:06] I had to converse with him. Um, and, and he's very... He does a lot of lecturing now, and he's very, um... about sustainability. He's, he's very passionate about that in, um, in, in his later years. Um, but yeah, I was in a, I was in a lift, as I said, in India where we were staying, and, um, he got in and I'm like- No. And I said, "Good morning."
[00:09:24] And as soon as he spoke, you know, I might... And so we, we struck up a conversation. He, he's a lovely man. Um, and for those that haven't read his book and know of him, um, please do, 'cause as you said, Paul, there's a lot of lessons we can learn in IT service management. What should be damn simple, such as opening a door, such as, dare I say, logging an incident, resetting a password, should be pretty easy and intuitive.
[00:09:55] Choosing a category from your service catalog.
[00:10:00] Should be easy. So yeah, I, I... there's a lot of, um, lessons, as I said, we can learn. What I'd like to ask you next, both of you, Chris, I'll go to you first. If you said to the head of, I don't know, someone in IT, let's say the service desk manager, "Give me some reports, please." But you said, "You know, letter, I don't want
[00:10:17] to
[00:10:24] see the number of incidents, I don't want to see the number of tickets, I don't want to see failed changes," what do you think they'd give you if they didn't have our traditional... Do you think they could What, what do you think?
[00:10:36] Speaker 3: What a question. They're gonna be stumped, aren't they? They're stumped, and then they'll fall back to what they know.
[00:10:42] Yeah. And what they're doing a very good job on. It would be tickets, time to response, media, uh, media response. Yeah. That would be a meaningless conversation unless I can literally produce something alongside and say, "Yeah, you realize that the dashboard you've got, this is what you're doing for the organization.
[00:10:59] Everything you've just mentioned, those five metrics here contribute to this, and therefore the value of the organization." That becomes a different conversation quickly. But if you just ask them, we- we're seeing it live again. Yeah. They, they don't have the tools or the language to, uh, describe what they do, which is valuable, hugely valuable at an operational level, but cannot be translated currently into enterprise value.
[00:11:21] Speaker: And, and Paul, I- I'll say, and I wonder if you agree, um, uh, spot on. I di- I don't think that most people in IT, and it's not a criticism-
[00:11:29] Speaker 3: Yeah ...
[00:11:29] Speaker: I think that we are rewarded by what we've been taught. So we're rewarded by speed, uh, compliance. What teaches us is
[00:11:40] frameworks, tooling, maturity assessments, et cetera, et cetera. So to Chris's point, like if you asked your team or, uh, for some IT reports and you said, "But I don't want, I don't wanna see the traditional metrics," how do you think your, your team would, would go? I,
[00:12:00] Speaker 2: I think you'd be taking most of our Power BI estate now off the table, uh, you know, right away.
[00:12:05] Um, uh, you know, and, and bringing it down to quite a, a, you know, a narrow field. Um, you, you know, we do have some experience in sentiment, um, that we measure. Um, and I think that's increasingly becoming important. Um, uh, you know, with the, you know, the rise of digital employee experience tooling, you know, understanding, you know, what people do feel or how the estate's behaving and, you know, there's really a, a more modern layer there.
[00:12:25] But most of what we do, and I think this comes back to Chris's point on the, on the, you know, it's a translation problem Um, you know, ITSM will often report on SLAs, ticket volumes, activity, um, uh, you know, which is great for the language we speak and like that. It's great for the dashboards we want to look at.
[00:12:41] Um, but we're not producing dashboards that, uh, senior management, the boards necessarily care about outcomes, productivity, risk, uh, within IT service management frequently. And, um, uh, you know, I guess we're measuring what's easy, not necessarily what correlates with the success of the organization.
[00:12:58] Speaker: Mm. And, and again, and you're right about employee experience, so I'll do a bit of plug for Nexthink.
[00:13:02] So our friends at Nexthink, they're amazing what they do. Um, I, as you know, I'm an ITIL master. I, I kinda challenge sometimes 'cause ITIL kinda does tell us to do that, and, and again, I think it's that translation. Um, it's always all about you, you know, outcomes to the business. I mean, that, that's what my ITIL Masters is about.
[00:13:19] And I worked for Qantas, and we did start introducing, rather than incidents, what did that incident cause? It was a, a delayed plane. That's what- What you got ... executives care about.
[00:13:33] Speaker 3: Dollars attached to it. E- Exactly.
[00:13:35] Speaker: Exactly. Yep. And but again, like, to your point, Paul, I don't, I don't, uh, uh, we, we won't, we, we go with what we know.
[00:13:43] And again, it's not a criticism, and I say also, we still need those metrics. We don't say throw them away. We absolutely need them. But it's if the audience who, you know, as I said, execs do not care about how many failed changes there were and for incidents and things like that. Um, what did that mean to the business?
[00:14:05] And are toolings, um, configured to do that? Probably no, because we haven't configured them to do that. And, and I think this is a such a huge opportunity with, with guys like you that are bringing this much needed awareness and change.
[00:14:20] Speaker 3: But, but it's not hard to join the dots, though. This is basically where I'm coming from.
[00:14:23] So Paul, you mentioned customer experience. You'll have, uh, whether it's, um, NPS, eNPS, but you'll have scores that say, "Yeah, we are satisfied or not satisfied with the IT service we're getting." Let's reverse that all the way back. Exit interviews. How many exit interviews mention, "Oh, the IT didn't work for me.
[00:14:37] It was a real pain. It stopped me doing my job"? Not many, hopefully, but if it does, then you've actually got a different metric into play here, and that's like regretted attrition. So people are leaving the organization that you really didn't want to leave. Now, if, if you're training and you're improving people's experience and people's, uh, how much they enjoy working for an organization, yeah, of course, IT's gonna be part of that.
[00:14:55] Giving people the tools to do a good job is part of the job satisfaction and what they take away. So that's IT enabling it, but we haven't joined the dots here. There's a... That's, uh, that one's quite a stretch, but yeah, how people enjoy working in the organization, part of that's gotta be, "Yeah, I've got... My kit works.
[00:15:13] The Wi-Fi works. Teams works for me." And hopefully a big platform that they actually work with, or an operational platform, the CRM, the RP, that's all working beautifully for me, and therefore I enjoy working for this company. There's, there's part to it there. No, it's not everything. It's not a one-for-one match, but it's a contributor, and that's where you think, "Yeah, just keeping the, the lights on."
[00:15:32] Ah, it's more than that. You're contributing to employee satisfaction. Employee satisfaction cont- contributes to reduced churn, reduced attrition, which contributes to P&L. Of course. In fact, we're back to, we're back to HR. Yeah. We're back to Mercer again.
[00:15:46] Speaker: But I, I'll give, um, listeners, uh, something that I learned to, again, I refer to Qantas.
[00:15:52] I asked the head of the contact center for a list of the customer, or report of customer complaints by passengers. And he said to me, "But Kat, they're not... No one's ever asked this, and they're not really IT issues." I said, "Can I have a look please?" And that was a really big change for me, uh, uh, how I approach service management, because at the end of the day, we're here to c- for customers' loyalty.
[00:16:21] And I know your situation a bit different, Paul, but I, I think a lot of similarities. Um, and if we wanna be innovative, so for example, a lot of the customer complaints was, um, they weren't aware of the excess baggage fees. Now, IT can innovate that if we know what our customers are talking about, but IT never gets this data.
[00:16:40] And as you said, Chris, the data is there, we just never ask for it, and we can connect the dots. And again, that translation layer of education and understanding what's important. Um, yeah, so as I said, it's just a really good, interesting thing, and I think everybody should know what your customers are saying about your organization.
[00:17:00] IT people should be aware of that. That should be what they wanna do. A- as I said, not that how many failed changes there were. You know, who cares? Uh, how can we make the, that experience for our customer better through innovation and IT? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:17:14] Speaker 3: 100%.
[00:17:15] Speaker: Great. All right, uh, just to wrap up, uh, just got a few questions.
[00:17:19] Just trying to find the most trickiest.
[00:17:25] I did say IT service management is working exactly as designed We designed it. However, I, I ask this question every time I speak at conferences, every time I do a webinar, put it in the chat, write it down. I ask IT people, "What do you think the business thinks of IT?" And
[00:17:55] 95% of the responses are negative. Complex, cost center, don't understand us, et cetera, et cetera. Paul, how can we change this?
[00:18:13] Speaker 2: I think this comes from how we design the ser-services around people. Uh, you know, ultimately, uh, you know, most IT, I believe, is designed to work, but not actually work with people. And, uh, you know, we expect that people interact with technology, but actually people are interacting with technology, and technology problems are essentially human problems.
[00:18:29] People are designing with what we've designed around the technology, the workflows, approvals, desk interactions. You know, we construct that reality. Now, at all, you know, there are constraints with what technology does. But, you know, users, customers, they don't e-experience what we intend. They experience friction, ease, delay, confidence.
[00:18:50] Um, uh, so I guess for me, you know, it's really about making sure we involve them in the design of some of those processes, what works for them, so that, you know, as Chris comes back to, we design a better employee experience. You know, that translates into happier, more productive employees. We look at the reality.
[00:19:13] I'm... Apologies, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, pick up here. Uh, th- there's a great concept I love about desire paths and, you know, how we intend things to work, but actually where people go. You'll see this at the corners of roads where a straight path meets a road, people cut across and it creates a worn path.
[00:19:28] Michigan, um, University in America, um, when they've designed their paths, they didn't build the paths originally. They watched where people walked, uh, across campus. Google it, find a photo. It's absolutely beautiful to look at, uh, from a design perspective. And then when they saw where people actually walked, they built the paths there.
[00:19:46] And for me, that's where we need to meet the user, at the point of their reality.
[00:19:50] Speaker: Yeah. And, and Paul, that, um, goes back to what we say in humanizing IT, is if we create a poor experience, it's not the framework's fault because the framework was not built for experience, and I'll dig my heels in on that. It was built to manage technology efficiently, to, to provide value to the bus- It was not designed for experience.
[00:20:14] And again, that's why I wrote my new book, The Distortion of IT Service Management, 'cause, uh, you know, ITIL and frameworks are doing exactly what they were meant to do, and they're doing it good. Um, and we have to be careful of mixing, overextending frameworks, and what I personally feel is then diluting their value.
[00:20:34] Um, and we need to be very, very careful at... And as I often say, if we stop talking about operations and start talking about all the other things that's coming out, who's looking after operations? You know, we need to be very, very careful, very careful. But, uh, conversely, it's a really good opportunity, um, for a need to change.
[00:20:54] So thank you, Paul, for that. Um, there was really, I think about four golden nuggets in what you said, and I'm gonna replay those and do a post on those. That was great, actually. And Chris, finally, before we wrap up, hard or easy question?
[00:21:10] Speaker 3: You pick. Go ahead.
[00:21:13] Speaker: Okay, let me think. I want to do a hard one.
[00:21:20] Where is IT service management going to be in two years? What-- 'cause I believe, as you know, it hasn't really changed in 40 years. Where's it gonna be in two years? Are we at this stage
[00:21:38] Speaker 3: Uh, there's different aspects to that. Um, one is where I think it's gonna be with respect to, yeah, AI, cyber, ESG, all of those things, uh, will be the next gen.
[00:21:47] We know that. We know that. That, that's not where I'm coming from. I'm hoping that it's, uh, it becomes, well, is on the journey to becoming a, a value-based organization-
[00:21:55] Speaker: Yes ...
[00:21:57] Speaker 3: uh, where, yeah, the CIO turns up to board with a trust scorecard and says things like, "This quarter, I've generated six million in enterprise value.
[00:22:08] I've done it these ways. You understand that, and below that I've got another layer that I understand even better. Impact on your big DA, my regulatory exposure, ESG, um, exposure. And below that I've got my metrics that you don't wanna see."
[00:22:22] Speaker: Mm. "
[00:22:22] Speaker 3: That, that was three years ago." Yeah. "Okay. Now I'm talking value."
[00:22:27] So if we're on the path to doing that because we build a translation layer, then yeah, it's, uh, it's, it, it's, it's, it's step forwards.
[00:22:34] Speaker: And, and it's conversations like these, I love that you say, you know, "We're a value-based organization. We're not an IT department."
[00:22:41] Speaker 3: A- And next to what Paul was saying as well, they have feedback loop in there.
[00:22:44] So, yeah, just, just delivering good IT service, y- you don't get the plaudits for it. You, you, you, you get the negativity attached to cyber issues, and system issues, and availability issues. But everyone who's keeping the IT service running and running smoothly, world-class or otherwise, is actually generating value.
[00:23:00] But if that was visible to the guys on the service desk, visible to the guys in ops and infra, then th- their, their, their world becomes a little bit more enjoyable. Uh, they get the feedback- Exactly ... so you've contributed to the value of the organization. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Technical debt is an obvious one, but other areas you've contributed to employee satisfaction, you've contributed to-
[00:23:20] Speaker: Growth
[00:23:21] Speaker 3: P&L- Yeah ... growth. Yeah. But you've done it these ways. Yeah. So do this, do it well. You're doing a great job, but it's not just you in your bunker, in your engine room. Yeah. It's you adding value to the organization.
[00:23:31] Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And
[00:23:32] Speaker 3: the board gets it. Yeah. And I, that, for, for me, that's a great bit of feedback for,
[00:23:36] Speaker: for- Well, well, let's hope that that conversation changes maybe sooner than two years.
[00:23:40] Um, as I said to you, A- Adobe C and the work that you guys are doing, conversation is starting. So thank you both. Uh, been an absolute pleasure, and I wanna do this again. So we'll see you soon. And, uh, listeners, uh, links below, and you, um, message you on LinkedIn, Paul and Chris, happy to take any feedback.
[00:24:01] Speaker 3: Keep the conversation, keep the conversation going.
[00:24:02] Speaker: Absolutely.
[00:24:03] Speaker 3: So, absolutely.
[00:24:04] Speaker: Absolutely. Thank you, guys. See you soon. Bye-bye.
[00:24:07] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[00:24:07] Thank you.