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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to another episode
of the Startup Therapy podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan, joined
as always by Will Schroeder,
my friend, the founder
and CEO of Startups.com.
Will, they say that success
has a million parents and that
failure's an orphan, but every
founder listening to this
knows a pretty simple truth,
and that most people only
show up at two moments, right?
At the start of this race where
no one is cheering them on,
or at the end of it when, when
all the fans finally arrive.
Will, why is it that people who
have the most to say after we
win are often the same people
who were absolutely nowhere to
be found when we had nothing?
blows my mind.
And, you know, so this past
week, just to kind of date
stamp this episode, you know,
uh, SpaceX goes public and Elon
becomes a trillionaire, and
an awful lot of people have an
awfully strong opinion- Yeah
on what he should do
with his money, right?
Yeah.
And, and basically just,
just different, different
versions of how, how they
should take it from him.
Yeah, whether it is his money
at all in the first place.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Right?
And so Elon is a terrible
example of, b- of what I'm about
to say because he's a rich kid
that became a more rich kid.
Yeah.
But when I look at this
among anybody of any level
of success, Elon is, is
obviously an outlier, I always
ask myself, "Where were you
when I was broke?" Yeah.
Or when they were broke, right?
You know, where were you then?
And again, people always forget,
my dates could be a little bit
off but not far off, around
2007, I remember living in Los
Angeles, and one of the big
headlines at the time was how
Elon Musk was fighting his way
through bankruptcy court- Yeah
um, and pleading with the
judge to be able to keep
his, quote, "pittance,"
by LA standards, right?
Uh-huh.
$30,000 a month, if I recall.
That his friends were lending
him- Yeah … because he had
invested all of his money
in SpaceX, you know- Yeah
… and, and everything else.
And I thought it was fascinating
because the people who were
lending him money back then, and
I can't remember exactly who.
My, my memory isn't that
good, but it was like the
Google guys kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right?
And so this goes back to
when he was in a bind, right?
Yeah.
When his back was against
the wall, who was there
for him, and who wasn't?
Nobody.
And so if nobody's got his
back then, right, how is it
so many people have, have
such a strong opinion on what
he does with his money or
what he's earned now, right?
Well, because the whole world
wants a piece of the win, but
there were very few people who
want a piece of the risk, right?
Exactly.
So they wanna show up after
it's completely de-risked.
They're like, "This looks like
a fun party now that it's a
party- … and not somebody
chopping their way through
a jungle with a machete.
Let's party." Yeah.
Yeah, no thanks.
Yeah.
So at a personal level, the way
I've experienced this is, you
know, like most founders early
in my career, I'm struggling,
I'm young, I'm alone, right?
Yeah.
And I'm trying to
build something that
no one understands.
At a time period, this is
like, you know, early-mid-'90s
that nobody understood
what a startup was.
We were explaining to
people what the internet
was at that point.
Literally.
That- Yes … that was my pitch.
Yep.
It wasn't what we can
do with the internet.
This is the internet.
It was what the
internet even was.
Yeah.
And I remember at that time, so
figure I'm 19 at the time, I'm
in college, and I remember I go
to my guidance counselor, and
I essentially was dropping out.
And I sat with her and
I explained to her, I
was, I was so excited.
And she was like, "Why are
you so excited?" that you're
dropping out of college.
Yeah.
'Cause back then, this is
like circa '94, dropping
out of college was not
a sign of something good
was about to happen.
Right.
Right?
This is usually where
the guidance counselor
leans in with help.
And I was like, "But
I'm starting an internet
company." Uh-huh.
She's like- Oh, boy … "The
internet?" Yeah.
I said, "The internet,
uh-huh." So, and I remember
her giving me the opposite
of help and guidance.
It was more like a
what a fool you are for
doing what you're doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was kind, but in her
mind, given her job, there
was one path to life.
Yes.
And she was the arbiter of
that path, and if you deviated
from that- If you play your
cards right, you can grow up
to be me, Will … yeah, I was
like, you know, whatever, man.
I think you said at some point
that your guidance counselor
even cost you a scholarship.
Yeah, that was in high school.
It went off the back of a desk.
There was a packet of
papers that, that was
just had to be submitted.
The thing was done.
We already knew the outcome.
Oh, brutal.
Yeah.
Yeah, I wasn't particularly
happy about that.
Although- … it worked out.
Yeah, it, it worked out.
But see, that's the thing.
The it worked out sounds
like a fine consolation
when it works out.
Yeah.
Statistically, it
does not, okay?
Yeah.
So which makes this way worse.
And so kind of the premise of,
you know, what I wanted to dig
into today is this concept that-
As we go through this journey
from, you know, the moment
we're starting all to the moment
where hopefully, when things
go well and we're successful,
the cast of characters, the
supporting actors in this
role changes quite a bit.
Oh, yeah.
And I find it to be fascinating
that the people at the beginning
who should have been helping us
the most- Yeah … aren't the
people at the end who haven't
done a goddamn thing to help us.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, support's cheap-
And you have very strong
opinions about that … when
it's obvious, right?
When the outcome is
obvious, support's cheap.
Uh, everybody's like, "Yeah,
oh, I'm very happy to pitch
in now that you've won a game.
Allow me." But conversely,
like, for as cheap as it is
once the outcome is obvious,
is so sacred when the
outcome still looks insane.
And I know you and I both have
just a, a few people who helped
along the way at those early
stages that really, really
made things different, right?
Like, without that little
bit of support, who knows
what would've happened.
And those little bits, like
to me, the value of that
early support, though it was
little and far between, was
so insanely valuable, right?
And, and like- Yeah … the
amount of gratitude that we
have for those people who were
there at the early stages, wow.
And where it's starting,
and where most of the folks
listening, you know, to this
podcast are at right now,
is that, those early stages.
Let's start there, because
I really wanna timestamp
this for folks who are
in this stage right now.
Like a, a moment to say,
hey, look around and take
inventory right now, right?
Of who's supporting you.
And remember that.
Because if I rewind back,
I think this is, this is
kind of an interesting time
machine timestamp for me.
If I rewind back to those early
years, I'm 19, I'm 20, I'm
just getting out of college,
meaning dropping out of college.
I don't know anything.
I am completely broke.
Yeah.
And I have no recourse in life.
I think that's the most
important detail here.
When I started my company,
I had exactly $19 in
my checking account.
I remember this distinctly
because, Ryan, you've, you
and I have talked about this.
You, you can't withdraw
twen- you can't withdraw-
You can't withdraw … you
can't withdraw 19.
You gotta have 20 to do it.
That's why I had 19.
"I need another dollar to get
any of my money." Literally.
I, I mean- That's Pareto in
effect right there … that's
where I was at in life, right?
You know, just to, to
put that in perspective.
And obviously not
exactly rolling in dough.
And, uh, anyway, I had no
support structure whatsoever.
I was, uh, kinda, uh, divorced
from my parents, so to speak.
Yeah.
So I, I didn't really
even talk to them.
And they had no idea
what I was doing.
I moved to some weird
place called Ohio from
Connecticut, so- Wow … and
they had never heard of.
And this was a time where,
like, you know, you didn't
have social media, you didn't
have, uh, even email yet.
And so nobody had any
idea what I was doing.
I was just- Yep … again- Just
gone … a fish out of water.
As I'm starting the company,
my roommate, he, I'm telling
him about it, and, uh, he,
he and I were both theater
majors, so we would go do
acting jobs and stuff together.
Uh-huh.
Um, so like that's what, where
our dialogue, you know, was.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, so his dad
was an accountant.
Word got back to his dad that
I was starting this company,
and his dad was the only person
that supported me, right?
This guy hardly even knew me.
Yeah.
He lent me $10,000.
Yeah.
Now, I just wanna put
this in perspective.
Number one, that was over
30 years ago, so that's…
Let's call it 50
grand now, you know?
I- Right … it's not
literally one for one,
but, like, in how we might
think of 50,000 right now.
Well, it was, like, a
5,000% increase over
your checking account.
That's- Exactly.
Exactly.
That's, that's the
important part.
Exactly.
So I wanna look at
that for a second.
So, uh, his dad loans me
$10,000, and he loans it to
me at a 50% interest rate.
Now, I didn't know what
usury was back then.
Yeah, that's, uh- I would
come to find out later
… that might be illegal.
So I mean, it's kind of funny.
I- he's a great guy and I, I,
I don't want to disparage him.
And I, I… And this
will be a theme of this.
I genuinely appreciate that
loan because the probability
that a 19-year-old kid with
zero experience was ever gonna
pay that much money back.
Yeah.
Hell, I don't know if
I'd lend it to a kid now.
Right.
Right?
Like much-
Yeah … less back then.
He probably assumed he
was getting exactly 0%
interest on that loan.
It was a big risk, okay?
But it really changed
my trajectory.
Fair.
Like, I mean, it sounds crazy.
It allowed me to buy a
laptop, which was way out of
my price range at any level.
Um- Well, they were also
hella expensive back then.
Oh my God, yeah.
And it changed everything.
So eventually, you know,
he, he got paid back.
But when I looked around at my
support structure of, of who
would've been there back then,
dude, it was, like, nobody.
Right.
I mean, like, literally nobody.
And I remember the first
year that I was in college,
uh, or second year I was in
college, but first year I was
in Ohio, uh, holidays come
around and I'm in the dorms.
It turns out that you have
to leave the dorms and go
home during the holidays,
which for most people is
just, like, rite of passage.
It's what you do.
Yeah.
Except I didn't have a home.
It, like, didn't occur to me
that I would- Yeah … get
kicked out at this point.
Makes it a challenge.
Yeah.
Like, "Wait, I have to go?
But where's my new room?" Yeah.
That point for sure.
They're like, "You know, hey,
it's, it's Thanksgiving, it's
Christmas," whatever, you
know, "Dorms are closing."
And I'm like, "Wait, huh?
What?" Anyway, so caught
off guard and one of the
new guys that I met, uh,
down the hall from my dorm,
um, says to me, "Hey, you
can come home with us."
And so, so I go to his parents'
house up in Cleveland for,
uh, for the holidays for
Thanksgiving, and I distinctly
remember just sitting in my
room working the entire time.
Right?
Like, he and his family
were celebrating Christmas
and I'm sitting working.
Well, fast-forward 30 y- years
later, I'm at his 50th birthday.
This is last year, and,
uh, his parents are there.
Now, I haven't seen his parents
almost since then, right?
Mm-hmm.
But his parents come up
to me and they're like,
"We are so proud of what
you've done." Right.
It was one of the coolest
conversations ever, right?
Uh, it was basically the, the
conversation I would've loved
to have had with my own parents.
Yes.
But, like, uh,
surrogated by them.
And I remember thinking,
"Man, at a time when I
really needed it, you
were there for me." Yeah.
Right?
More so than even my own family.
Right.
And I, and I thought about that.
I'm like… And then I, I
rewound back and I said-
How many people that are
in my life now were, were
helping me out back then?
Almost nobody.
Almost nobody.
I mean, it was cool that the
one guy that helped me, I'm
at his 50th birthday, right?
But like-
Yeah … almost nobody.
You know, it's funny, not that
I would ever tell a founder once
they've made their money how
to spend their money, but here,
here's one thing to think about.
Get a wide angle
lens for your camera.
Uh, because early on you're
not gonna need it, right?
The early photos when it's
still, it's just you're,
you're in a garage that
smells like failure, you
don't need a wide angle lens.
But by the time you're
victorious, by the time you
sell that company, you're
gonna need a wide angle lens
'cause everybody wants to
participate in that victory.
Yep.
Yep.
And look, man, like I do
wanna say that, like, I
don't think that all early
doubt is malicious I agree.
Sometimes it's just, it's just
people reacting reasonably to
an unreasonable- Reasonably,
yep … mission, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, y- your guidance
counselor is like, "You're
gonna start an internet company.
I don't even know
what the internet is.
This sounds like a bad idea.
My job is to guide people
through a university
experience, so I'm gonna try
to get you to do that." Yeah.
She doesn't know
any better, right?
Yeah, I agree.
But, but the brutal part,
man, is that founders already
have doubt internally,
and then the, the outside
world piles on even more.
And the only… With… As
early founders, we don't need
blind optimism from others.
It's not like we
needed cheerleaders.
Right, right.
What we need is somebody
that doesn't add weight to
the bar, and I think that
most people do think- Great
way to put it … they're
protecting us with their doubt.
But dude, what they're usually
doing is just sucking the oxygen
out of an already deprived room.
Yeah.
It's like- Yeah … "Now I
really can't breathe. You're
choking me out. This is already
hard, and you're making this
harder." I love that analogy.
Instead of spotting us on
the bench- Yeah … they're
sitting on the bar.
Right?
They lean over and they're
like, "How's everybody's
going down there?" Like…
I think about those early
moments for founders, you
know, c- so my own journey,
but, like, for other founders,
where nobody has their back.
Yeah.
Now, what's nice is there is
exponentially more support
th- for founders than there's
ever been in the past, right?
At the very least, being a
founder is actually a job now.
Yeah.
Whereas before it was just,
you were just- It's the title.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, right?
Like, at least
people understand.
And I kind of give two people,
two Marks specifically, credit
for this, Marc Andreessen
and Mark Zuckerberg.
Uh-huh.
Marc Andreessen was the baby
face of 1997 when- Yes … um,
Net- Netscape went public.
I lived this.
He's the one that, like,
broke the, the ceiling.
I say, like, broke the glass
ceiling for rich white guys,
but broke the, broke the glass
ceiling for young people.
Don't worry, it was insured.
Yeah.
He was the first time
people could look at
a young person- Yeah
and say, "Oh, maybe those people
can create value- Uh-huh … out
of something." 'Cause in the
'90s it was largely, I mean,
it was all young people, but it
was largely this novelty factor.
Like- Yep … look at this
cute kid- Yeah, yeah … uh,
doing a company, right?
Yeah.
It was Alex P. Keaton and
what was the other one?
The, the doctor.
Doogie Howser.
There you go.
Yeah.
But it w- it was
exactly that, right?
It is… Oh, funny note.
Uh, back then, you
know, I was super young.
I, I look like I was 12.
A buddy of mine who I'd started
a company with said to me, he's
like, "You just have the Gary
Coleman effect." Now, for those
of you that don't know who Gary
Coleman is, which, which would
be forgiven considering that
was back in the '80s, there
was a popular sitcom in the
'80s called Different Strokes.
Yes.
And it was about these two
young kids, and the one,
Gary Coleman, who was, I
think, Arnold Jackson, uh,
he's just this, this young,
cute kid, but he would always
have these big one-liners and
everything else like that.
Uh-huh.
But it turns out he actually
in real life wasn't a kid.
He was- Yeah … like,
21 years old.
32, yeah.
Right, right.
And so anyway, I said to him,
he's like, "You've got the
Gary Coleman effect." He said,
"When you walk into a room,
people are so blown away-"
that you're so young and you
look like a child, that if you
say anything intelligent, you
sound like a genius, right?
Yeah.
You like… It wasn't
really a compliment.
Um- Yeah … but I
remember thinking that.
He's quick, he's
quick for his age.
And you're like-
Yeah … "I'm 32." Uh.
Exactly, right.
And so what was amazing, though,
is at that time, you know,
in that kind of era, in the,
in the '90s, people had zero
respect for young founders.
Yeah, yeah.
Because it kind of
hadn't happened yet.
Yeah.
And you had no analog.
So the other side of it was,
for guys like you and me during
that time, there was no analog
for our support system to
say- Right … "Oh, this could
work." The support system was
exactly the opposite, in fact.
Like, again, they thought
they were helping.
But man, I, I felt like I
was running around protecting
this tiny little flame from
everybody else's harsh words.
They were all trying to blow-
Yeah … my candle out with,
with- Yeah … words of doubt.
And look, I, again, I get it.
I do understand, because
what we were trying to do
didn't really look all that
sensical based on their-
Yeah … model of the world.
It looked like something
you should not do.
Yeah.
Now, that said, that said,
again, it was harder back then
just from a d- 'cause there was
less of a support structure and
less of a general understanding.
Yeah.
I would say that finally
got crystallized in the
early 2000s with the other
Mark being Mark Zuckerberg.
'Cause he was the comically
young, over-the-top
founder of a very visible,
uh, consumer company.
Very, very visible.
And that was where the, the,
the public started to say, "Oh,
okay, you know, somebody that
young, early, whatever, could
actually create true value."
And he did.
But the point is, in each
of those cases, in the
early formative years, no
matter who you are, you're
kind of on an island.
Yeah.
Right?
And it's a shitty place to be.
There aren't that many
people that really understand
either what you're going
through, or let's put it
differently, how to support you.
They feel like the support
is telling you that
it's a bad idea, right?
It's not that they don't
believe what we're doing yet,
it's that they feel compelled
to, like, make sure that
we don't believe it either.
They're like- Right, right
… "How can I change your mind
about doing this thing?"
Like, please don't, right?
It's not what I need
you here for right now.
There's another side to that
which is when people feel
like they're warning you,
it also creates a structural
bias- Yeah … where they
kinda want to be right.
If you fail- I told him so.
Kinda, right?
Yeah.
So when Uncle whomever says
to you, "Hey, I don't think
that's a great idea"- Yeah
he's not really saying, "I
really hope that I'm wrong."
Like, "I hope- Yeah … that
I'm wrong." I, I'm sure there's
a kind part of him that, you
know, doesn't wanna see you
fail, but there's also another
part of him that wants to be
right- Yeah … about the fact
that he tried to warn you.
Oh, 100%.
Right?
Or, or said differently, if
you wanna test that theory,
when you fail, see if he
ever mentions it again.
Yeah.
I guarantee he will.
It's like, "I told
you so," right?
But here, here's where he
doesn't seem so chatty.
Years later when things go well.
Uh-huh.
Right?
And he's like, "Oh, man, I
always knew you, uh, you were
gonna make it." No, you didn't.
Allow me to, to rever-
re-review my diary where I…
And see, those are tear marks-
and that's, uh, what you said
right next to those tears.
Maybe, maybe correlated, maybe
causal, I don't remember.
But th- that always struck
me, because I had a lot of
people in my life, as things
started to go well, kind
of change their narrative.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, "Oh my God, we were so
proud of you. We, we always,
uh, knew you could do it."
This just isn't my personality.
I would never, like,
call somebody out, try
to make them feel bad.
That brings me no pleasure.
But in my mind I'm sitting there
going, "Dude, you didn't even-
Yeah … have my phone number
back then, and there was no
other way to reach me." Yeah.
"So basically, uh, you telling
me that you were supportive
while having no way to
actually support me-" Kind
of doesn't get lost though.
Yeah.
I have a pretty specific
view on this, which is that
the fair-weather fans don't
really support founders.
What they support is their own
proximity to success, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of that clear.
Yep.
And it's, it's sad, right?
Because I'd argue they,
you know, they're, they're
not helping now and, and
we don't need them now,
and they missed out, right?
They- Yep … people miss
out on, on what could've
been something really,
really exciting, really
interesting, really special.
And to your point from earlier,
it didn't take much, right?
Like, it was a couple of
meals and, and a little bit
of shelter and care over,
over a holiday, right?
It's not like we needed,
like, well, yes, I stroked a
million dollar check for them.
Didn't need a million
dollar check, man.
We just needed somebody d-
not pressing down on the bar.
When I think in terms
of my roommate's dad
who lent me $10,000.
Yeah.
And people feel this way about
investors, that was a tremendous
amount of validation for me.
Sure.
Right?
Huge.
Just hearing that someone
else- Finally somebody
pushing the other direction
correct, right?
Yeah.
When the entire world was
pushing, uh, against me- Yep
… he was pushing from behind.
Yeah.
Right?
I adopted a phrase back then
called you're either rowing the
boat or you're, you're making
it, or you're slowing it down.
Yeah.
Right?
So- Either- … if you're not
rowing the boat with me- Either
you're rowing or you're ballast
Yeah.
Exactly, right?
And we used to talk about
this with our teams, you know,
not, like, in such an- Yep
… incendiary way, but, like,
you know, every day make sure
you're rowing the boat, right?
Yep.
'Cause if you're not, you
know, you're slowing it down.
Did you guys sing the song?
What's that?
Did you- We had a shanty.
Yeah.
You sing Row, Row,
Row Your Boat?
Yeah, yeah.
'Cause that would've been an
amazing team building moment.
Every morning we get to
work and we sing Row, Row,
Row Your Boat with our CEO,
who looks like he's 12.
It's not weird.
Yeah.
Right.
It's so weird.
He's wearing a
Stellarate uniform.
It makes no sense.
And so, like, we get this
crossover moment where things
start to go well for the
first time, and it's awesome.
By the way, for folks that
haven't hit that moment yet- The
most bizarre thing, and I talked
to a million founders about
that, I was like, "At which
point did you find out you were
gonna be successful?" Et cetera.
They consistently say, "It
didn't occur to me until after,
much later after it happened."
It, th- there wasn't like a,
like a big win moment, right?
And I always tell you the
story about, you know,
with the agency where we
had this big colossal win.
Mm-hmm.
That was very defining.
Like, that was- Yeah,
yeah … clear, like that
shit had just changed.
Yep.
But generally, it's a whole
bunch of just banging your
head against the wall.
Yeah.
Until someday you just
realize you're doing it a
little bit less, but it,
it's never a colossal moment
where you're like- Yeah
"Oh, my God," like you- All
of a sudden life's just good.
There's no massive outcome.
Right.
But it's just like,
"Hey, I have money now.
I have a, a life that I enjoy.
I have a team that I enjoy.
I'm helping clients that
I enjoy." Life's great.
Right.
Right?
Yep.
And it's interesting too,
because with startups, part
of where we tend to see those
moments are in funding rounds.
Not exclusively, but
as an example, right?
Because when a company raises
a bunch of money, there's
usually a little bit of
a, some fanfare around it.
You know, maybe some
media attention.
Yeah.
You know, some social
media, whatever.
And it's a moment.
It's a victory lap, if you
will, for the, for the founder.
And when that happens, I watch
the same progression every time.
Everyone comes out
of the woodwork.
Always knew you could do it.
You know, sounds awesome,
amazing, whatever.
Yeah.
Invariably, there's the
other side of that where
the money runs out and
they n- they need cash.
Now, l- let me, before I, I
get into that part- Are they
all still there trying to
pump you up- Yeah, exactly
and help you feel better- I-
… that it's gonna keep going?
No.
Let me give you an example.
I lived this.
And some of the folks that
are, that, that I know listen
to this podcast, you were
part of this cycle of, of what
happened, so, uh, y- some of you
will remember this firsthand.
I'm living in Santa Monica.
And, uh, when we're raising
for a company, and we'd done a
very, very public seed round.
Like, we had just
phenomenal investors.
Um, we were like the, the talk
of the town for this seed round.
Uh, top of the
food chain, right?
High fives from
everybody, et cetera.
Well, fast-forward 18 months
and the money's gone, right?
It wasn't that big of a
seed round, like a million
two or something like that.
The money's gone, and now
we're out on the road looking
to do our series A. It's
not going well, and all of a
sudden nobody's talking to me.
Yeah.
Nobody's high-fiving, right?
And like, people at conferences
or, or get-togethers are kind of
avoiding me because, you know,
I've got the scarlet letter.
I can zoom.
I'm guy who's failing
publicly and cannot raise.
And I'm like, "Huh."
Now, now let me give
you some examples, okay?
One of the, the, the
people that, that wanna
meet you first when you
raise money are recruiters.
Yeah.
For all the obvious reasons.
Yep.
You just have money.
That's how they
make money, right?
You know, that's- Yep
th- they know that
money goes to you.
Yeah.
It's the same way when
somebody signs an NBA contract.
Anybody that you're likely
to spend with is about to
become a real close friend.
You bet.
You bet.
You sign an NBA contract,
and all of a sudden every car
dealer and real estate agent,
you know, has your number.
So we raise a bunch of money.
I get introduced to, like,
every, you know, hotshot
recruiter in town, and
by the way, they were
all really good guys.
So I- Yeah … this isn't
me disparaging them.
But invariably, right, when
the money runs out, none of
those guys are calling me.
Yep.
Right?
You know, they don't care about
what I'm doing or I'm failing.
And I find this to be
fascinating because we
get to see this, uh, cycle
with lots of founders.
Like, so y- yes, I've lived
it, but I also get to watch
it with other founders.
Like Ry, since you and I
help people raise money,
we're very well aware of
what happens when they can't
raise that money anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
All of a sudden the
world gets a lot smaller.
Yep.
Like, really fast, right?
Yeah.
And all those people that,
that just wanted to catch up
don't wanna catch up anymore.
Nope.
Right?
And you can trade that zoom
lens or that, that wide l-
angle lens back in for the,
the macro at that point.
It's, it's you,
yourself, and you.
The painful part for me
wasn't necessarily that
those people showed up.
Mm-hmm.
'Cause, you know,
yeah, it's fun.
It's a victory lap or whatever.
Yeah.
It's that they act like they
were there the whole time.
Yeah.
That was when I got kinda like
a little bit sour about it.
I was like, "You know,
you're overplaying, uh,
all of it a little bit.
Like, you're retelling the story
like you experienced some of it.
You showed up eight
minutes ago." Yeah.
Right.
Right, right.
Like, you can tell eight
minutes worth of the story,
how about I tell the rest?
Uh, I think that's fascinating
because again, when people
are, you know, having, having
their, their come up cycle,
I see this over and over.
Whenever one of my friends
starts to do really well, again,
their company's doing really
well, et cetera, all of a sudden
everybody's always known them.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And everyone's
always backed them.
You know, I'll give you an
example at a d- different
company, and I mentioned
this before, but the, the
last company I started, my
co-founder was Jamie Siminoff,
who would go on to start
Ring, the doorbell company.
Jamie's a, a great dude, but
Jamie all of a sudden was 10
times better looking, 10 times
more funny, 10 times more
interesting after Ring, right?
Yep.
Like, as far as the
people around him.
Yeah, yeah.
And this is nothing
to do with Jamie.
It has to do with
actually the- Oh, yeah.
No, it's, it's not
a reflection of him
the people around him … it's
how people's perceptions change
and how, yeah, like how- And
now everybody's always known
him … they romanticize people.
Yeah … right?
You know, oh my God, w-
we've always supported him.
Nope, you know what?
Yeah.
I've known Jamie for
a pretty long time.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I've seen him at,
at different stages, and
I'm well aware of the- Yeah
support that he had at
different stages, and it
wasn't always a high-five fest.
That dude worked his ass off
to get where he's at, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, you weren't
supporting the dream.
You're supporting
the press release.
That's cool.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I watched those journeys.
I'll give you one more, and
I've mentioned this before.
Years ago, this is a long
time ago, I looked this up
the other day 'cause I was
talking to somebody about it.
Uh, remember I told you that
whole thing when Sam Altman
sold his first company?
Yeah.
My date stamp's off here.
Let, let's call it… Well,
actually no, it'd been around
2011 'cause- Yep … 'cause
that's when we're, we're
launching Fundible.
Call it 2011, Sam Altman, as
many of you know, who is the,
uh, founder of OpenAI, so the,
you know, the parent of ChatGPT.
Sam had just sold
his first company.
Uh, he went through
Y Combinator.
He sold his first company for
I think it was $40 million.
And he posts it on what
is essentially the, the
Y Combinator version of
Reddit, their YC news
site, yeah, Hacker News.
He gets dogged by
everybody on the site.
Now, this is messed up for a
whole bunch of reasons, okay?
Number one, that's
his home field.
Like, those are his people.
Yeah.
Right?
Exactly.
That, that should have
literally been high-fiving him.
And all the people in the
thread, you can look this
up, all the people in the
thread are basically saying
he didn't sell for enough,
raised too much money, what
a waste, et cetera, right?
And again, this is very much
my feelings about about this
matter have not changed.
I get in there, I never
comment on this stuff.
I just, just don't care.
But this pissed me off, and I
was like, "Fuck you guys." Yeah.
Right?
I was like, "You guys are the
people that are standing- Did
you stretch out before you
got into your armchair, Mr.
Quarterback?
Oh my God, dude.
Did you?
But seriously, I was like,
I was like, "Fuck you guys."
Like, you guys are the people
that are standing at the end
of a triathlon or a marathon-
Yeah … telling the people
crossing the finish line that
they didn't run fast enough.
Uh-huh.
But you're not the
person in the race.
No.
You have no right to be able to
dog this guy, and I, I didn't
know this guy from Adam, right?
And so, so Sam writes
back to me, and he's
like, "Dude, thank you.
You're like the only person
that supported me." He's
like, "If you're ever in Palo
Alto, I would love to grab
lunch with you." So just so
happens, the next month I
was in Palo Alto, and so, you
know, he and I grab lunch.
Just this super sweet kid.
Now, who would've known
he'd go on to become the,
the guy that he's become?
But I use that story
to illustrate that it's
important to have a
founder's back when nobody
else has a founder's back.
Yeah.
Not because they'll
become Sam Altman someday.
Yeah.
But because we as founders
are typically the only
support structure that
really understands why
that support is needed.
You know, something that's
really funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all day
long at groups.startups.com.
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing
about what to do.
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.
There's another hidden danger
in there, man, and, and it's not
just the, the resentment that
we have around this or don't.
But the danger, I think,
and this is why it's so
important to have some of
those founders in the corner
so that you got people to
turn to post success too.
Because I, I think there's
a big danger- Yeah, good
point … in letting late
arriving voices influence
post success decisions, right?
The people who were not
there for the risk Often
have really terrible
advice about the reward.
And so I think that it's really,
really important that you've
got a few of those people
in there that you can bounce
off, 'cause you're about to
have a whole lot more voices.
That's a b- bunch, bunch
more people are gonna
show up for the photo.
Yep.
But I think it's important to go
back and say, "Who was actually
here through all of this?
Who understands the context,
everything that I sacrificed
to do this?" And let's let
that voice be just a little
bit louder than everybody who
showed up eight seconds ago.
I have this thing that I
do, and I've been doing for
a very long time, where I
show up in a founder's life
as the Ghost of Christmas
past, present, and future.
Let me explain to this show,
and they'll remember one of
these visits by Ghost of Will.
Here's what it looks like.
Either something really
bad or really good
happened to you, right?
Really bad, and this has been
on, on numerous occasions,
really bad whereby, uh,
something public went down.
Yeah.
Where, like, uh, you got
fired from your own board.
Yes.
Or, you know, that you, you
ran out of money, whatever.
And I do this weird thing
where I call those people,
even if I've never met
them in my entire life.
Yeah.
And I say, "Listen, you have
no idea who I am. Maybe you do,
right? But I'm calling because
I think you need help." And I
have no purpose for that call.
Like, there's no end
game in that call.
Yeah.
I do it because I think it's
the right thing to be done.
But I can think of quite
a few founders that are
listening to this podcast
right now that, that know
when I showed up to do this.
But what I wanna do is explain
why I show up to do it.
Yeah.
Right?
Because I genuinely believe
in that moment that a
single conversation can
change that trajectory.
I genuinely believe that,
since a lot of those
conversations have come full
circle, and, you know, folks
have, have gone on to, you
know, turn things around.
Time and time again, they'll
come back to me, which I
think is very cool, and say,
"Dude, when the chips were
down, like, you were the
only person that called me."
I'll give you just some,
like, kind of examples, and of
course they're totally an- an-
anonymized, but, like, I had
a guy that I talked to once.
Again, total stranger,
and he would tell me years
later, and he was in tears
while he's telling me.
He was like, "Will, I'm not
even kidding you, I had a gun
in my lap when you called me."
Oh my God.
Right?
I know.
I, I… Whoa.
I was like, "Did-" Yeah.
"Didn't see that coming," right?
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and he's like, "Listen,
I know that's a lot of
information." He's like,
"That's where I was," right?
He's like, "I just wanna
thank you for, like, ca- like,
calling a stranger," right?
Yep.
And that one kind
of blew me away.
In other cases, it was a case
where the founder was like,
"At that moment, all I needed,
man, was anybody to tell me it
was gonna be okay." Yeah, yeah.
"Because everyone around me was
telling me the opposite," right?
You know, and, and life was
telling me the opposite.
I just needed, like, a, a
light to, you know, s- uh,
shine on, on what I was doing.
There's something really
important there, which
is that real support
is actually measured as
much by its timing- Yeah.
Oh, ag- good point … as the
content of the messaging, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, it's not like you
had to tell him anything
earth-shattering, right?
Just like, "Hey- I see you-
Yeah … right, in this moment.
Right, yeah.
But you'll be all right.
The message is almost
pedestrian in some cases.
The stuff that you and I
received wasn't like it was
earth-shattering advice or,
or, you know, millions of
dollars in support, but the
timing of it matters a ton.
And so- Um- … again, it's
important for us as founders
to be there for other
founders for this very reason.
I'll give you one more example
just because he talks about
this publicly, so this,
uh, I'll say who it is,
and he's, he's a listener.
So you know Andrew Gazdecki?
Uh- Oh, yeah … Gaz is
the founder of acquire.com.
Yep.
Uh, when Gaz was first
getting started, this was
a long time ago, when it
was called Microacquire.
I'd heard about the business.
For no reason, I called
him out of the blue, right?
And at some point, he's
such, such a great guy,
and he was like- Will,
why are you calling me?
I mean, like, you can say, like,
he was a question- Yeah … he,
he was happy about it, right?
Yeah.
But I was like, "Dude, I'm
literally calling you to figure
out how I can help you," right?
Yeah.
He's like, "Seriously?"
And I was like, "I have
no end game in this.
I- Yeah … just wanna be
helpful in some way." And as
the years have gone on, we've
become really good friends, and
he'd always refer back to that.
He's like- Yeah … "Dude,
I'm still blown away that you
just called me just to help
me, with no end game, with
no outcome, whatever, just
to see if I needed help."
And I'm sure, just because
of the, the kind of guy he
is, that he's gone on to
do that for other people.
100%. I do think that,
that, that seed germinates.
But again, doing what we're
calling the time stamp there,
when nobody was helping you,
then fast-forward to the other
side, where all of a sudden
everybody wants to help you.
Mm. Right?
You know, things are going
well and everybody's coming
out of the woodwork, et cetera.
And l- let me, let me talk about
ghost of Christmas Future that
shows up at that moment, okay?
So I've got one guy again,
we'll remain anonymous, who I
called out of the blue, never
met this guy before in my
life, when the chips were down.
Like, something very public
happened- Mm … where, where
he got kind of crucified by his
own board, and I saw it it in
the news and I said, uh, "Let
me help this guy out." Yeah.
And that's actually how I
got You might be the only
person who's not a lawyer
that's calling this guy.
Exactly, right?
And, and of course, like
it's skeptical, like who,
who is this guy and whatever.
Uh-huh.
Years later, I get a text
message, this is actually like
a year or so ago, and he said,
"X million," like a lot of
money, "just got wired into
my bank account." And, uh, and
he's like, "I wanted you to
be the first to know," right?
It is awesome.
And just like the
biggest smile on my face.
It was also 5:00 in the
morning, he knew I was the
only person that was up
and working at that time.
Yeah.
Sorry to call you so
late, Will, but… But
here's what I said to him.
I s- "Congratulations,"
all that, "and we need
to talk immediately." Uh.
Right?
And so, so we get together,
uh, we get together for, we're
doing dinner, and I said,
"Listen, man, before all of
the congratulations come in
and before everyone looks at
your cash and figures out- Yes
how to make it their cash,
a few words of, of advice,
because this happens all the
time." Right, I'm sure we've
done like a whole podcast- I,
we have … on this subject.
Yeah.
So I won't belabor it, but I
say, "Listen, everyone is going
to figure out a way to take
title to your money." Yeah.
Right?
They're gonna feel like it's
deserved to them in some way,
usually in one of two camps.
Either they feel connected
to it in some way and so they
feel like they should get a
part of it, which is sometimes
true, or they don't have it.
Yeah.
Simply by that proxy-
Yeah … you somehow
magically owe it to them.
Isn't that funny?
Um- That's such a
funny mentality to me.
It's like, because it's the
same person who will tell
you you didn't really earn
all of that either, right?
Like you had a team-
Mm-hmm … you had whatever.
Like y- you didn't
really earn that money,
but I should get some.
Like, well, dude, you definitely
didn't earn any of it.
Yeah.
What the fuck are
you talking about?
Like what are you
actually talking about?
That's art, right?
I, you know, it's funny-
Yeah … I, I remember the
first time I encountered
this, and I really had…
And this was a, I, I guess I
was a founder at that point,
but you know, my, my little
cattle business that I ran from
age 11 until 16, I remember
driving to school the first day
in the car that I bought cash.
I pull in, I get out, and the
first thing anybody says to
me, they looked at the car
and they looked back at me
and they went, "Must be nice."
You must be nice.
Yep.
And I was like, "You
asshole." Right?
You know what wasn't nice?
Getting up at 5:00 o'clock
in the morning to feed those
things when they were babies.
I had to bucket feed
10 cows- Yep, yep.
Must be nice … twice
a year every year for,
like, six years to build
the cash to buy that car.
So yeah, it must be nice.
Yep.
It must be nice that I'm,
I'm now driving a car
no longer doing that.
But, uh, yeah, where were you
on all those- Yep … cold-ass
winter mornings when I
was freezing my butt off?
Just, it's so crazy how people
can just begrudge us something
we've truly, truly earned.
And look, it's the way I
feel about a lot of things
in life where there's,
the, a, a third party can
never really appreciate
what it took to get there.
It's the way I feel about
combat veterans, right?
And I'm like, "I can't
possibly thank you enough,
because I actually have no
context for what you went
through-" No, none … to make
that thank you meaningful.
It's thank you anyway,
but… Or the other side
of it is parents, right?
Yeah.
Where, like, kid turns out
good or kid turns out bad.
It's like, you know how hard
that parent had to work in
t- terms of frustration,
commitment- Yep … et cetera,
to get that outcome either way?
You know?
Right.
I was like, it's intense.
And so when I see this other
side, when I get the text
message that a whole bunch of
money landed in my account,
and I jump in to say, "Okay,
let's talk about how to
keep it in your account,"
I basically have a bit of a
speech, I guess, that I explain.
And just the, the heart
of the speech is this:
You earned every single
penny of that money, right?
However you choose to spend
it, it's your money, right?
It's no one else's money, and
no one has right or title-
Yeah … to what you own.
Now, at some point, I
become a character out
of Atlas Shrugged, right?
Where I come and I talk like
Midas or somebody that, like,
you know what I'm saying, and
try to talk, talk to people.
But that's not really, it's
not, like, a political thing.
It's me basically saying, "You
earned it. The decisions are
yours and no one else's. And
more importantly, when you think
about who's about to extract
this money from you, a really
important anchor-" is what did
they do to earn it for you?
Yeah.
Right?
Like, where were they in
the support structure?
And they might've
been phenomenal.
Like, if your parents
underwrote everything you
did- Yeah … and they ask
for money, it's up to you.
I have no opinion on what
you do with your money,
but I could see that.
Yeah.
But if they didn't-
Mm-hmm … right?
Like, uh, uh, in the case
of my parents, my parents
had a negative contribution
to my career and my life,
not a positive one, right?
Yeah.
Like, they owe me
a debt in life.
And if you knew the story, you'd
understand why I'm saying this.
Yes.
And I, I don't say it lightly.
I know the story, and I agree.
Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, people are
like, "Oh, did you buy your
parents a new house?" I did not.
No.
I did not.
They failed to provide
one of those for me when I
was, uh, eight years old,
so- Yeah, exactly, right?
I think about that in terms of
a whole bunch of people that
all of a sudden feel like,
like you owe them a debt, and
I think it's dangerous gambit.
Because it's really easy to
get lured into that, because
you're like, "Well, now I
have something I didn't have
before. These people don't have
something that I have now."
Yeah.
"And I should help." Now,
this is different from me
saying if, if you truly
wanna help those people,
by all means, do it, right?
This isn't anti-help,
it's anti-debt.
If I decide to buy Mom a house
because I just wanna do it,
cool, but do I owe it to her?
Correct.
Like, did she do something?
I know Mom's a bad example,
'cause if she raised you and,
you know, brought you into this
world meaningfully, then yeah,
m- maybe sh- debt would be okay.
But Uncle Jimmy, who all he
ever really did was just naysay
the entire time- Yeah … I
don't owe that guy shit.
What's the ROI on all the doubt
I poured into your startup?
Uh, how much- Mm-hmm … of
your cap table did that get me?
Yeah.
You're on the crap table,
Jimmy, not the cap table.
Fuck out of here.
Never heard that.
What we look at, though, is we
look at the people that actually
did help us, and like, those are
the bricks of our foundation.
Yep.
Right?
And it spans.
It's spouses, it's
family, it's coworkers.
Yeah.
It's friends, it's other
founders, you know, however,
however you would label those.
There are some people who were
the bricks of that foundation.
You know where I… Like,
I want to be the bricks of
other founders' foundations.
And we see it all the time
in the feedback from, uh,
founders on the startups.com
platform, where they're
like, "Damn, dude, finally
someone saying something that
isn't negative to me." Yeah.
Right?
Or s- or said differently,
and this is a, a lot of
what this podcast addresses,
they're basically saying that
what I'm going through, even
though it sucks, is okay.
Yeah.
You know, I, I said something
to a founder last week during
one of my getting customer
sessions and, and it was
basically telling him, "Look, I
don't fully get-" This, but I'm
not going to be another person
making you defend it, right?
Which is that other class
of support- Yeah … which
is like, I'm not gonna
make the bar heavier.
I'm not gonna push down on you.
I may not get it
yet, and that's okay.
I don't have to.
Right.
I don't have to get it the way
you get it, but I'm definitely
not gonna make you defend it.
I'm definitely not gonna d- try
to make you feel bad about it.
And sometimes that
was all they needed.
Like, you could just see
the relief on this person's
face, like, just wash
over them through Zoom.
Yeah.
You could see the
whole posture relax.
It's like, oh, thank God, right?
Because everybody else
that said they don't get
it is also telling me I
must just be wrong because
they don't get it, right?
Yep.
Like, people told
us we were wrong.
Like, the internet's
never gonna go anywhere.
People told Zuckerberg
he was wrong.
People don't wanna
talk to the people.
Like, you know, like,
everybody's been
told they were wrong.
When you're doing something
brand new, what they
mean isn't you're wrong.
It's mean I can't see it yet.
Well, guess what?
Yeah.
Good news.
Yeah.
You're not the founder
of this company.
You don't have to.
Out of the way.
Right.
I got it.
Yeah.
I'm good.
If you're not rowing, you're,
you're slowing us down.
What blows my mind, right,
is how few bricks there
were in my foundation.
Doesn't take a lot.
It doesn't take a lot, right?
Yeah.
It doesn't take a lot,
and it was far fewer
than, than people think.
So I think from the outside,
going back to what you said
a moment ago, where you're
saying, "Hey, must be nice."
Must be nice is
a generalization.
It's easy to make, you
know, when you see people
on the other side of you.
You see the guy roll up in a
Ferrari, and you're like, oh-
Yeah … you know, must be nice.
But you don't understand
what it took to get there.
It's the way I feel about
professional athletes, right?
If you've won a gold medal
at the Olympics, I don't
think people understand
how much dedication
and sacrifice it took.
It wasn't that you
were just really good
at swimming or skiing.
Yeah.
It's that you had to be
the best in the world.
Yeah.
And in order to be the best
in the world, you had to
sacrifice literally every
part of your life- Everything
else … for your entire life.
Like, like the- Yeah … what
it took or, or, you know,
if you're a star in the NFL,
it's like, yes, you were
probably in many cases a gifted
athlete, you know, as, as far
as your physique, physique.
Yeah.
But gifted athlete doesn't
get you out of bed.
Gi- No … gifted athlete
doesn't pick you up after
somebody just clobbered
you into the turf, right?
Yeah.
Like, that was you, and it
was very, very hard to do.
And I think for a lot of
people, when they see these
things from the outside, they
just see the outcome, right?
They don't see the work that
it took to get to that outcome.
But you know who doesn't
have that problem?
Other founders.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, again, this is, this
is what I said about, like,
I know that some other people
may understand my journey,
but I'm 100% that other
founders understand my journey.
Sure.
In fact, uh, you know, let
me give you a vignette.
I didn't get a chance to
share this with you, 'cause
it happened last week.
Last week, I'm out with
a, a friend of mine.
He's, uh, he's in his, uh,
early 80s, a great guy that
I've known for a really long
time, a very successful founder,
and I wanted to show him the
house that I was building,
because he actually had, uh,
he was part of the journey.
He actually connected-
Mm … me to the architect,
you know, et cetera.
We were going through the house.
We spent like, uh, an hour
together, you know, going
through it, and I'm showing
him every single detail.
You've been through this
house tour, so you know
what I'm talking about.
And I p- poured my heart
and soul into this thing.
And at the end of it, uh, he
looks at me, uh, like a proud
father, and he's like, he's
like, "Will, I'm so proud of
you." And he said, uh, "I know
what it took to get here,"
and I'm not talking about the
build of the house, right?
Yeah.
Like, you know, "What it
took for you to get here,
because I've done it. I've,
50 years of my own business,
you know, sweating it out,
doing the same thing."
And he's like, "I'm
proud of what you built.
This is a sweet house."
He's like, "But I'm proud of
the person you became to be
able to build this." Yeah.
Right?
Worth its weight in gold.
And that's somebody who's
earned the right to say
that kind of thing and give
that kind of support, right?
Ig- exactly.
Because that can ring real
hollow from somebody…
It, look, and they may intend
well, but, like, when we hear-
Yeah … those kind of things
from people who we know have no
context, have no understanding
for what we actually did
to get it, they recognize-
Yep … the receipt, right?
And that's it.
They don't recognize all the
work that went into to being
able to pay for it, right?
Which is powerful, right?
And to your point, he's
earned the right to that, to
the weight of that comment.
Yeah.
Right?
Again, it's the same way that
I've got a friend that, that
we both know that's Special
Forces, right, in the military.
Yes.
And, and whenever there are
special days, like a Memorial
Day or Veterans Day or whatever,
I always reach out, tell him ex-
and how incredibly thankful I
am, um, for what he's done and
the commitment that he's made.
But I also al- always point
out, "And I can't appreciate
it the way another- Yeah
… combat veteran would," right?
Like, I've never been
shot at, knock on wood.
Um, so let's hope
I keep that streak.
Uh, I don't appreciate it in
the same way, but, but I at
least have the self-awareness-
To be able to say like, you
know, s- "For as much as I, I
respect your commitment and what
you've done for our country,
I can never see it, uh, uh,
the way you would," right?
Yeah.
Now, to be fair- And have
it- … exactly zero people
in my life have ever given
me the same consideration.
They've never said like, "Hey,
I've never built, you know, uh,
built a company or had to take
the sacrifice you have, but I
respect the fact that you know
you go along." But I say this
in, in terms of earned right.
When I see someone do really
well, like the, the… Again,
I'll go back to the friend
of mine who, you know, gets
millions of dollars wired
into his bank account.
Part of that speech is
me saying, "You've earned
this. You deserve this, and
what you do with it only
matters by what's i- what's
important to you." To you.
Right?
Again, a whole bunch of people
are gonna have, uh, opinions on,
on what you do with this money.
Yes.
But the only one that
matters is yours.
Funny how what you should
do with it almost always
involves them somehow, right?
Yeah, and I, I think what's
interesting about that is-
Most of the founders that I
see that have done really well,
they're obviously smart and
ambitious, w- uh, whatever.
Yeah.
But there's also a, a
pretty significant emotional
torrent going on inside them.
Kinda how couldn't there be?
Because a l- all, a
lot just happened.
Yeah.
And then all of these,
call it debts, right?
These implied or, or literal
debts all come due, right?
It's all these people
coming out of the woodwork
saying, "Hey, man, can
you loan me some money?"
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, dude.
Success does not create
supporters, but it certainly
reveals opportunists.
Right, and, and I always find
that fascinating because I
think in terms of the person
that reaches out to me, I
had a friend that had reached
out to me early on in my
career, and he said, uh…
And, and things were going
well, so, like, and, I mean,
things were kind of visible
that things were going well.
And he said, uh, "Hey,
man, can you loan me
$20,000?" Pause right there.
That is a massive loan, right?
Yeah.
It wasn't a business loan.
Just casual.
He, like, literally personal.
A casual ask.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's like, "I've gotta
pay down some credit card
debt." And I was like, "Huh.
The balls." Yeah.
Just like… And, and
like, I, I liked him a lot.
He was a good friend.
Oh, geez.
Weird.
What's crazy is he had the
worst pitch of all time.
His pitch was basically like,
"Look, man, just over the
years, my credit cards just
k- like, kept piling up."
He's like, "I'd, you know,
I'd see an Xbox, and I'd
want it, and I'd buy it." Ah.
"And then I'd regret
it later." And- Yeah
and I'm like, "This is
everything you should not
say to a lender." Yeah, yeah.
It was the- You want me
to be responsible for you.
No, thanks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so, uh, needless to say,
I didn't give him money,
but he's still a friend.
But I say that to say,
like, no lack of people are
gonna come for that, that
withdrawal, so to speak.
And the draw comes,
not just monetarily.
I, I use that a lot just
because it's easy to understand.
But a lot of it's, "You should
thank me for how I, I helped
you." It… Look, and if they
have, by all means, do it.
Yeah.
And, and let me, let me re-
rewind back to, to that story
where my friend's parents had
helped me at Christmas time.
Like I mentioned, last year, I
got to see them at my buddy's
50th birthday party, and
it was amazing at how well
they remembered that moment.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And so… And they're
just great parents.
And so w- uh, we're sitting
there over drinks, you know,
celebrating their, their
son's, uh, birthday, and the
dad says to me, he's like,
"Man, all I remember when
you came to visit us for, for
Christmas was that you were
in the guest room, and our
son could not get you to come
out of the guest room because
he said you would just…
wouldn't stop working."
And I was like, "That
would go on for the rest
of my life, right?" Yeah.
Yeah.
They're still trying.
and his mom, sweet as could be."
It's like, all I remember is you
left a giant stain on the wall.
And what it was is I was
sitting on the bed, and I had
long hair that probably hadn't
been washed in a long time.
Oh, my God.
And the back of my head was
leaning against the wall.
Oh.
And, and apparently like,
like I left a spot of
what had to be grease.
That's amazing.
Just so gross in its
own right, right?
But not surprising.
That's amazing.
I know I wasn't, like, that
filthy of a human, but I had
pr- a lot of product in my hair.
Have they painted over it?
Because if not, there's a
really interesting piece of art.
We go extract that drywall,
and then, like, just as, like,
a testament to the work ethic.
I like that.
I just love that, that
30 years later, that's
how she remembers me.
And, and so anyway, so you
know, th- they were through,
you know, through our son,
we've followed your career.
You know, we're super proud
of what you've done and
everything else like that.
And I remember saying to them,
"I want you to understand how
thankful I am that in a moment
where I needed it the most, you
guys were there for me." And it
wasn't… Uh, I didn't say this,
but it wasn't that they did
some, like, extraordinary thing.
Yeah.
They did something simple that
wasn't slowing the boat down.
Imagine if they hadn't
done that, and I w- I don't
know where I would've been,
but certainly by myself on
Christmas- Yeah … which
would've been, like, just
depressing at a whole-
Yeah … a whole lot of levels.
With nowhere to go and
essentially homeless, that
would've sucked, right?
A- and so yes, maybe I was
working the whole time,
but I was working a place
where I felt support.
Yeah.
Right?
And, and- Yeah, you were safe,
so you could work … safe.
Right?
Right, man.
Yeah.
Um, and I say this to say
I think when we think about
supporting founders, you know,
through the journey, kind of
being there when nobody else
is, what you keep hearing
me say is it's not these
just extraordinary things
where, you know, y- you lent
somebody money or whatever.
Sometimes you just
said the right thing at
the right time, right?
You know, that,
that was supportive.
Sometimes you didn't
say a goddamn thing.
You were just there to listen.
Just there.
You know, it's making me
think, Will, we should start
an entirely new concept here,
the emotional seed round.
The emotional support
seed round, right?
Mm-hmm.
Just let people get in, get
on something that's way more
important than the cap table
and just be like, "You know,
I'm gonna commit to being there
to listen, being there to…"
I mean, this is this kind of
stuff you and I do every day.
I'd love to see it
formalized in some way.
I'm telling you, man, if I truly
take inventory and I look back
at those years and I say, you
know, "How many people were
really there for me, you know,
when, when I had nothing?"
I guarantee it's
less than 10 people.
I mean, I've met thousands
and thousands of people.
I have over 10,000 contacts
in my, in my phone book and
then that… And when I say
that, like, that's, those
are contacts I actually typed
in one by one, not just,
like, a social media feed.
And so I've met a lot of people.
It blows me away.
Now, mind you, my universe
was much smaller back
then, but it blows me away
at how few people it took
to build that foundation.
Yeah.
It, it wasn't, "Here are
hundreds of people that
helped me out." Right.
Sound amazing, right?
It was, like, five or 10
people that helped me.
Uh-huh.
Out of all the people I, you
know, I, I would go on to meet.
And what's interesting is
some of the people who I've
referenced, like my friend's
parents- And by the way,
that m- uh, my friend, I know
he's, listens to the podcast,
so thank you, of course.
I've told him thank
you a million times.
But it's amazing at how just
those little things were instead
of it becoming, like, a hole
or a pit that I was about to
fall into, it became just a
little bit, tiny springboard.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Pushed me a little
bit further ahead.
It wasn't the $10,000
itself- Yeah … that
made all the difference.
It was the fact that
somebody was even
willing to give it to me.
Yes.
Yeah.
That was all the difference.
And I think about that, I'm
like, "Man, you guys deserve my
act- support forever," right?
Like, I'm, I'm down for that.
But everyone else… Yeah.
Less so.
I don't feel quite as indebted.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, for sure.
So look, when we finally cross
the line, like, I think it's
really easy to get distracted by
the noise at the finish, right?
Yep.
The applause, the admiration,
the people suddenly reaching
out to say that they
always knew that you were
going to be a big success.
Look, that's fine.
Let them cheer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, but don't confuse those
cheers with the support that
actually got us there, right?
Those few, few bricks that
you keep talking about in the
foundation that actually made
a big difference at the time
we really, really needed it.
The people who matter the
most are rarely the ones
yelling from the podium.
They're the ones who carried
the water when nobody was
watching, who stood next to us
and when the bet still looked
really, really terrible, who
believed there… But before
there was any kind of proof.
Those are the people who
earned the right to be in the
story, and those are the ones
that, that we should try to
be for founders going forward.
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