Defining Hospitality

Dan welcomes Paul McElroy, Executive Vice President of Design and Construction at Lucid, Highgate’s in-house design studio, onto today’s episode where they dive into the transformative power of sustainability within the hospitality industry. Paul emphasizes the critical role of small changes and conversations, the significance of detailed project management, and the impactful lessons learned from challenging construction projects. The conversation conveys how vulnerability and resilience shape professional approaches and industry-wide improvements. The duo also explores how pioneering figures and companies are integrating sustainable practices, stressing the necessity of these efforts to become standard operations due to regulatory and market pressures. 

Takeaways: 
  • Embedding sustainability into projects from the kickoff meeting ensures that objectives are clear and incorporated into the workflow from the beginning.
  • Integrate sustainability metrics and waste management plans into RFP processes to ensure accountability and commitment from contractors and vendors from the start.
  • Show up with authenticity and vulnerability. This approach breaks down barriers and builds stronger, more genuine relationships with peers and partners.
  • Set clear, audacious goals and communicate the “why” behind initiatives. This helps to align and motivate teams around shared objectives.
  • Work collaboratively with contractors and vendors, bringing them on the journey rather than dictating from above. Understanding their challenges and working together to solve them can result in more sustainable and feasible solutions.
  • Recognize and utilize the power of collective effort. Mobilize your organization and partners to join in the sustainable mission, thereby amplifying the impact.
  • Be open to changing course based on what you learn along the way. Healthy friction and iterative improvements can lead to significant advances in sustainability practices.
Quote of the Show:
“It's very important that a hotel exhibits extreme hospitality to their guests, but I think hospitality extends way beyond the four walls of a hotel.” - Paul McElroy

Links:
Shout Outs:
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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Paul McElroy
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

today's guest is somebody with extensive experience in leading projects and building teams in the hospitality, construction, and consulting industries. He's taken a special interest and is extremely passionate about the environmental impacts of design and encourages embracing more sustainable design efforts.

He's been featured in American Builders Quarterly, Metropolis Magazine, HD Magazine, Hotel Executive Magazine, and Pacific Edge Magazine. He's currently a judge for Sleeper Magazine's AHEAD Awards. He's the Executive Vice President of Construction and Design at Lucid, Highgate's in [00:01:00] house design and construction studio.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome this in person interview I did with Paul McElroy. Enjoy. Paul McElroy.

Dan: So first of all.

Paul: of all.

Dan: Thank you for inviting me in here. Um, we're at the So and So piano bar at the Roamer in Hell's Kitchen, which just opened a week or two ago?

Paul: few weeks ago, yep.

Dan: and it's really cool, and I'm inspired to do parties here, so,

and get togethers.

This is like a really cool space, and the photos don't do it

justice.

And who designed it?

Paul: Uh, Goodrich, Matthew Goodrich.

Dan: Another one of my favorite people? Yep. Um,

so,

I want the listeners to know how I I want an outcome of this conversation

to

one of the many outcomes to be how

small collisions or conversations can lead

to tremendous impacts. Okay. And [00:02:00] there's a whole bunch of different ways that we can get

there. But if I were to share with the listeners, when you started at Highgate, You said

you're going to, you're really excited and you want to really have a,

make me an agent of change and use the platform

for having a positive impact from a sustainable, a sustainability

perspective. Um, and you brought up

this

platform called MindClick and you said, it's really important to you. I want to make this change. Can you

please

take this seriously, really look at it and get Berman Falk on

board?

Paul: that,

Dan: don't remember exactly when that was, three or four years ago.

Paul: Yeah, about Three years ago. Three

Dan: years ago?

Um,

Paul: we

Dan: went through the process. It

was

really instructive because

oftentimes if you want to change,

you have to measure things. You can't change things if you don't measure them. Sometimes you don't like to see what those measurements are, but it provides a framework for how

to move forward. [00:03:00] and since that conversation with me, and I'm sure you had that conversation with countless other

people, um,

Paul: The

Dan: FF& E and product that we provide to your projects and that are provided to your

projects, we've all made these changes to continually improve.

And even though we came out as a highly ranked

company,

Paul: um,

Dan: we saw that

we could eliminate all foam

from our packaging. And that seems like a really small

thing. But it's actually tremendous when you think

of waste towards the end of the, of the installation

cycle. So,

Paul: And the scale at which you're doing it.

Dan: scale, correct. So what I wanted to say is thank

you, because without that conversation, we wouldn't have been on this path.

and I

know that I'm

just one drop of water, but there's hundreds of

others that I'm sure have had the same impact. And

when you look at all of this holistically,

The final impact is incredible. So

I just want to say thank [00:04:00] you.

Paul: Thank you for being open to it. Yeah. Because not everyone is.

Yeah. Um,

and you're right, you're one of many.

And when we started kind of on this

journey with

intention, like four years, four or five years,

ago, we knew we

didn't have the answers,

but we had a start. And

no one has all the answers on how to like do this perfectly, but

collectively. And at the scale that we, you know, do projects and the scale of our business, if we can get everyone to do a little bit, to your point, it adds up to a lot.

Um, and we researched back five years ago, how do we start measuring ourselves? Because we have to hold ourselves accountable. And like, we're ultimately the ones getting ranked. Each individual vendor and partner gets ranked for their, their piece of the project. But it's us Highgate that's being ranked.

For our holistic supply chain. [00:05:00] And we didn't know what the results were going to be on our first project, but we were like, we have to start, we have to measure, and we're going to get better and better and better. Um, and we've done maybe eight or nine projects, completed eight or nine projects now with the MindClick program.

Um, and we're learning every single day and now we're learning, like, we're measuring FF& E, which has a huge impact, but what about base building

materials? What about the other parts of the project that we need to start measuring that? So that's kind of our next journey, um, with them is how do we start to measure the things that we're not currently measuring, but also have massive impacts.

If you do a topical renovation, you're not really touching a lot of base building materials, but if you're doing projects like this, you know, a lot of the projects that we undertake are big, you know, what I call open heart surgery to old buildings and When you're doing those projects, you're, you're touching a lot more than just

FF&

E and OS& E.

There's a lot of drywall, tile, um, there's a lot like HVAC. There's a lot of things, [00:06:00] ductwork, sheet metal, all these things that need to start getting measured. Because when these, like when you guys change your foam, for example, for like a project of ours, We're impacting the whole industry because you're changing it now, period.

Berman Falk's changing it, period.

Dan: Yeah, and we want people to copy

Paul: it goes like, our intention here was to start a

ripple that goes way beyond Highgate.

Dan: I want to talk about all

of that stuff because to me that drop of water to waterfall is incredible. Um, and I think we just all need to understand that these small collisions and conversations are going to make a

difference.

Those collisions and conversations don't happen where you ask someone to do something.

Where you kind of break down that wall of like, Client,

Vendor, Friend, Vendor, like, and to do that takes a little bit, uh, or a lot of vulnerability, right? Because you're going out on a ledge saying that this is

important to you, can you do

it, right?

And,

[00:07:00] so I think that idea of

vulnerability

Um, is really important to this conversation as well, because we can't really make change if we're not

opening up, measuring, being vulnerable, opening the

kimono, if you will.

Paul: Completely.

before we

Dan: get into like,

that open hearted,

and even you said like, you just said open heart surgery, but it made me think open

hearted, just conversations where there's like, there's no mask.

You're just, there's that ask and a need or want and a desire. Um, um,

You look at what You do from opening these projects, building these buildings, doing these crazy, from a design and construction

perspective, it's not typically something that you, even though they're hospitality spaces, it's not typically something where you're

exhibiting hospitality in trying to be on time, on budget, on schedule.

So,

to use it as a departure and launch

point into the conversation, what does hospitality mean to you?

And and how does that relate to you having all of these other

[00:08:00] accountabilities of getting things open?

But, tell me about

that.

Paul: So I think it's really difficult to define hospitality in a sentence. I think hospitality is more of like a way of life.

It's how you just show up in the world. It's very important that a hotel exhibits extreme hospitality to their guests. But I think hospitality extends way beyond the four walls of a hotel. Um, I mean, like, I I work for a hotel owner operator developer, so we're rooted in the hospitality business, but I'm in an adjacency, if you will.

Um,

but I still have to show up exhibiting hospitality. to the teams that we build, to the teams that we lead, to the partners and the vendors and everyone, we assemble these huge teams of people to accomplish the goals of transforming these buildings into like something special. And [00:09:00] even though we've got deadlines and budgets and investors and all those pressures to perform, I actually think if you don't show up with hospitality, you decrease your chances of accomplishing those goals.

Because When I sit down with a contractor, sit down with a subcontractor, sit down with, you know, a shipping company, like all the different jigsaw pieces that go into making up the puzzle. When I sit down and talk to people about why I'm pushing for this, because what you do impacts this, and then when that happens, like we're going to actually meet our goals and everyone's going to be elated and we're all going to do this together again and again and again.

But when you just like say, I need this by then, and someone's like, I don't know how to do that. But when you actually break it down and say, look, here's what I need and here's why, like, what can you do for me? And it's kind of going, that's

Dan: what you did with me.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, it's going that extra, like

the devil's in the

details, but I think the magic is in the details too.[00:10:00]

And you have to get down

into the inner workings

of the project teams. And whenever people understand what you're trying to do, it's

so rare that

people say is like, you don't get a you get, let me look at it. Let me take a look at them. We'll come back. And there's Half of the solution there and then maybe the half of the solution is with another vendor partner and you get there.

But you have to really sit with people because at the day we're building these hundreds of millions of dollars worth of spaces but it comes down to people putting them together and the human interaction and the openness and to your point vulnerability with up and down like the, you know, the leadership chain.

To me that's where the magic happens in these projects because it really is. A bunch of humans putting their brains together to create something special.

And I really believe everyone on the team is as important as the next person. Like the interior designer or the architect who are leading the creativity, they're [00:11:00] important, but so is our carpet supplier, so is our case good manufacturer, so is our lighting designer.

If any one of these pieces don't work, it all kind of, it's a house of cards, it all falls down. So.

Impartin on the team that you need to be open, you need to communicate. You can't just ask. You gotta explain why. And when you explain why, you're gonna get a better

answer. So,

Dan: I love how you said that the

devil and the magic are in the

details. Um,

you have a pretty cool origin story. But one of the things that

struck me, and has always struck me throughout my career and

my

journey, is

the problems with are the greatest opportunities for

learning.

And I'm curious on two

things. One, I want to hear,

like, I don't know, listeners, if you hear his

accent, he's not from Staten Island. he's from Ireland,

a different island. And now he's living in another island out in Hawaii. But, um,

I'm curious how you found your way into hospitality. But before we go there, [00:12:00]

a story that you shared with me.

I think it

was at the Hilton Hawaiian

Village. There,

Paul: Probably 15 years ago,

Dan: was 15 years ago, but you, but it was a huge nightmare. You

were involved in

some crazy litigation. um, because of, it was like

the, there was a superlative, the biggest something.

Paul: Mold

Dan: the ledge, Oh, Oh, it was mold. Okay. I didn't know that. So there was mold, but then you went through and they basically stripped down the entire

hotel. You were an expert

witness. And when you said magic and devil in details, it brought me back to that story you shared with me years ago

about how that was like

an MBA in learning the magic and the devil in the details. So share a little bit

about that and how you learned

so much.

Paul: Yeah, so it was a hotel that was built. in Waikiki, I think in 2000.

And I had moved

to

Hawaii in 2000. So I remember when I moved

there, I saw this

building [00:13:00] being built in Waikiki. And about a year after it opened, it shut down, and it had

mold infestation. And no one knew what was going on. And it started to grow basically on every surface in the building. And

The company that I worked for at the time, RLB,

we were brought in by the owner to just demolish five rooms and they wanted to see what was going on in the cavities of the walls to see if there was a pattern of air flow that was kind of tied to mole growth.

So, I'll try not to make this too technical or boring, but um, long story short, we ended up realizing that there was a host of problems with the building. Um, there was no one thing that made this grow, but it was like a perfect storm. Part of it was the orientation of the building, part of it was the type of facade on the building, the mechanical [00:14:00] system of the building.

So, the only way to remedy the problem was to strip the building back down to its structure. So, there was not, this was a 12 month old building, there was not, it was a 25 story tower I believe. Um, You could stand in the middle of the floor and look right or left, or north or south, and you could see all corners of the building.

There was nothing left except, like, stud walls. Everything, everything had to go. Um,

and

Dan: much, how much did it cost to build and then take everything

apart?

Paul: I don't, I don't remember exactly, but

I think at the time it cost about, this could be not completely accurate, 60 million to build and about 50 million to, like, fix.

Dan: And then they had to

rebuild it. Or no, that was included in

Paul: the rebuild. Cause

Dan: the core and shell was

Paul: kind of changed. And it was

shut down for a year. So we mobilized this

team to work 24

7. We had 3 shifts a day, 7 days a week for 12 months. Um, [00:15:00] And we were the project managers.

And I was a year

and a half out of

college. And it was like

sink or swim. Um, but the big lesson there was

Whenever we took the building apart, we started to see things that weren't done correctly. And that became like a bigger part of this whole litigation. It was like, there was a lot of shortcuts. There was a lot of stuff behind the walls that no one ordinarily would ever see.

Um, and it just, it embedded something in me that stuck with me forever. It's just like risk. There's so much risk in putting these projects together. If you don't have the right project team and the right QA, QC, making sure that things are done correctly. Um, and after the, a year after the hotel was built, rebuilt basically with a new mechanical system.

So we had to end up drilling all these [00:16:00] cores through the building, running all these new ductwork through an existing building and creating an entirely new mechanical system. Um, and the day the hotel opened. I went to the attorney's office and spent the next two years in the attorney's office, helping be a quote unquote expert witness, um, strategizing on the lawsuit, the last two years in litigation.

Um, so that was kind of my first, almost three years in this

Dan: yeah, so to me, if I had that

experience, I would be very into everything I could learn

from it, but I might run away from ever building a hotel ever again. what

what are you a glutton for punishment? Or what kept you in or what, what kept you

in hospitality, but not

just in it, like at a young age,

Paul: but also, uh,

Dan: forging this career path and

passionate journey

about like,

staying in here and, and

affecting change and like, what, what

kept you in?

Paul: mean, I've kind of [00:17:00] been around construction, like, my whole life. Like, all my summer

jobs

in?

high school and college was

always

working for a contractor. It was just,

you're going, you're going to do some manual

labor on a construction

site.

I think maybe my dad did that to keep me at college, actually. He was, I always wanted to, I never wanted to finish college. I was like, I just want to work. I want to go work. Most of my high school class didn't go to college.

And my dad was like,

You need to get your college degree. Just get it. And at the end of every, when we got to the summer break every year, I was like, I'm ready, I'm done. And he would make me go work for these like brutal contractors. Um, and by the end of the summer, I was like, I'm ready to go back to college for another year.

And on my graduation day, he said, all those horrible summers you had, like shoveling concrete and, you know, just doing the worst jobs. He said, that was all by design so that I would see this

day. So he said, once you get this piece of paper, you can do whatever you want, but you needed to [00:18:00] get this piece of paper.

Um, which was

something I really appreciate from him. Um, but, so I was kind of around construction. My dad was in like a, he worked for a, you know, a building product supplier. They had their own quarry and they made concrete and CMU blocks and all this sort of stuff. So it was just kind of in me. And then In some ways, that experience, especially within the two years in the law firm, I actually really loved it.

Like, I loved understanding what went wrong, and I loved then the strategy on like, how to like build this kind of like, case. Where we were being fair every step of the way. We're always like, we're going to be fair with everyone. We got to resolve this. And I just, I really love that's the strategy piece.

Um, and then as that, um, litigation was winding down, [00:19:00] we started to like work on some new big projects. Like we were, we had gone from like a really small project management company and this mold litigation project kind of threw us under a new stratosphere. And the whole team learned like it was an MBA for the whole team.

And when we got through that, we started, like people were knocking on our doors. We're building a new tower that people knew that we knew what not to do. From that experience. and at that time I was just part of like, when I joined RLB in 2000, there were three people when I left in 2009, we were like 70 people and I was just kind of part of that like momentum of like building up this big project management team and um, getting more responsibility in every project.

And it was kind of, it was exciting. It was really exciting. And like,

thankfully we've never, I've never found myself in a project like that again. And I think that actually helped me like,

Dan: around the corners. Be

Paul: more successful [00:20:00] on how to complete these projects and avoid all that stuff.

Dan: and

going back to that idea of vulnerability and asking and telling and asking and

also giving the why,

how do you think that that nightmare of a scenario and litigation and project and taking the building apart and

rebuilding

it, how do you

think

that

helped you to learn how to ask for why so

that you can? Help your

teams do more and not have that happen again.

Paul: I, actually, I think I learned

like through that

litigation that even though this was a horrible situation,

I, I saw like attorneys on all sides of the argument still being like graceful. And even the companies involved were like graceful with the situation. Um, I think that like taught me that even in like really tough situations, you can still have grace and you can still have like, Like they were having open, honest conversations [00:21:00] about what do we do here?

How do we solve this? Like together almost with insurance companies. yeah, I mean, I've always said that that was the biggest learning I've had in like 25 years doing this. Um, and there's probably a lot I've learned that I don't even know. It's just kind of, it was, it was so intense. It was a project that ran 24 7 for a year. And then. I went to the attorney. I showed up at the attorney's office every day for work.

That's where that was my office for two. I was just part of the firm for two years and I just sat next to one of their name partners

and I

was 24 and I were 23 at the time and he and I worked and this guy was like in his late fifties, early sixties at the time and he and I worked like partners. And he actually, and I brought this up recently at one of Highgate's leadership conferences, where I had to speak about just leadership.

And that guy made me feel like I was a named partner in that company. And [00:22:00] like, he gave me such a voice and he actually listened, even though he knew I had like, you know, two or three years of experience at the time. But like, he, he saw something in me and the way he led me. Made me want to do more for him. And, like, he would call me occasionally on a Saturday, but apologize for calling me, but say, like, like, I would never do this, but I really need this. And I would, like, I would have ran through a wall for him, just because of how he made me feel seen and heard. Um, and I'm still, like, friends with him today.

But I think all of those experiences, kind of, you know, for better or worse, like, shaped me a lot, like, to who I am today at work. partner

Dan: took you under his, under his wing, um,

how did that mentor mentee

relationship inspire or impact you

with any and all of the teams that you've

built since then?

Paul: It has impacted me in a huge way, for sure, because, [00:23:00] like, I learned more and did

more because

of him. And When we build these

teams for projects now, like,

I have

this belief that

most people show up to work and there's like 20 or 30 percent left in the tank that never gets tapped. And I think that's primarily down to like, leaders not creating spaces that allow those people to like, be a bit more vulnerable.

You know, have an idea and maybe they're like afraid to say it in case they're afraid of judgment or they're like, well, I'm not the most experienced person in the room, so I shouldn't be saying that. So, like, he taught me that like, I could go to him with, I was going to him with like strategy on this litigation.

Like, hey, here's what I think we should do because of this. And he's like, wow, that's a great idea. Um, and maybe like he saw that I wasn't tarnished from being in the business for 20 years. So I just had these. You know, [00:24:00] ignorance is bliss sometimes. And I just had these thoughts that were like, well, this kind of makes sense to me without any baggage behind the thought.

It was just a thought and I would share it. But I shared it with him because I wasn't afraid to be judged by him. I was like, he'll listen to me. And he'll like, tell me if he thinks it's a bad idea, he would sit and explain. That's a great thought, but it's not going to work. And here's why. So there was learning like all the time with him.

And like, I try to um, create spaces as best I can. for the most junior person in a big design or a big charrette or a big workshop. Like sometimes I'll say, Hey, what do you think? I haven't heard you speak yet. And sometimes like they have the best ideas. And I also think, you know, I always say that in pre construction, like if you've got the right contractor, there's so many brilliant minds in construction companies and they're, they're great technical problem solving.

you know, engineer, kind of [00:25:00] like, you know, wired minds, who are just problem solvers. Because when they start construction, all they do is solve problems all day long. You've got a set of drawings, you've got a plan, you've got all that stuff. But sometimes, you've got to throw it to the side and just solve the problem that's in front of you.

Because no one knew that behind that wall, there was going to be a bunch of abandoned pipes. You know, that don't meet code, or whatever the case may be. So, um, um, Trying to like, A, create a space where everyone in that big room can speak. Not just the people with the biggest titles. And then, B, like, tapping into like, some of the people that you don't ordinarily think might have the right ideas.

Like, hey, let's get the contractors in here. Like, what do they think about this detail? Or what do they think about this procurement plan? Um, and I think, I think the delta between doing that and not doing it isn't like 2 or 3 percent. In terms of like, brilliance that's out there. I think it's like 20 or 30 percent.

I think it's massive.

Dan: I think so too. and

Paul: like a project that we did [00:26:00] when I first joined Highgate was Alohilani. It was the Pacific Beach. You and I sat and had lunch there like a few years ago. Um, and,

like that was, our plan for that project was like, Big and audacious and people were like, it can't be done.

Like, you can't build a pool deck there. Like, you don't have the structure. if you build a pool deck there and we drop a pool down, you're gonna kill the ballroom underneath and I was like, Well, let's go, let's go on top of it. Let's go up on top and we'll build all these terraces. And they're like, how do you do that?

I go, we're gonna do a pedestal system. Like, well, we've never done it more than like two feet. Well, we're gonna do eight feet. We're gonna make it work. The structural engineer is gonna help us and he, the structural engineer is like, Gosh, I've never done this before and I'm like does that mean it can't be done or just means you haven't done it before let's engineer it and We started like creating this, you know, super cool hotel and It was like a four or five year effort But it was it really was like everyone on the [00:27:00] team and when I talk to people now We finished that project six years ago.

And even when I talked to, you know, Some of the people that worked on the project with us, they still like, the first thing they'll say is, God, like Alohi Lani was a challenge, but I think I'm so proud of it, because they all did stuff they didn't think they could do. I mean, there were so many easy off ramps,

but I was, and I'm not saying I, it was like, I really believe we could do it, and I just wanted to like, get a team of people that could believe it.

Or,

Dan: they didn't even believe they could believe it, but that question you said,

like,

can it not be done, or you just, have you never done it?

Yeah. I think

it's,

to me, when trying to effect change, in any

challenge,

it's

Paul: okay.

Dan: What would it take to do 10 times whatever that other thing

is? Oftentimes it's not possible right away, but when

you just don't think of any encumbrances, like here's a magic wand. What does

it take to get it done? Like, don't think about money.

Don't think about [00:28:00] people.

Don't think about technology.

Paul: beliefs.

Dan: Yeah. Get rid of all those limiting beliefs And

you'll figure out what it is. It might take

a couple of steps to get there.

Paul: Totally. You might not get

it done 10x on the first try, but maybe it's 2x. Yeah. and then 2x opens up a bunch more ideas to get you to 6x. Um,

Dan: and maybe sometimes it's just straight

up not possible. Going back into

those little stepping stones on your

path, we tend to learn most from the challenges. And those challenges,

we're forced to listen, right? We're forced to open our eyes. We're forced to take in a lot more.

So that we can get our head around the

scope of what we're dealing

with. And

I've been through some Crucible projects, or parts of projects with you,

Paul: um, we've

Dan: gotten through it, but it

was always mutually respectful. We have an issue, how do we get through it?

we get through it,

but those crucibles

offer that moment of, um, of, vulnerability. I think, [00:29:00] actually, if I were to think out loud on that

one,

It would also make me think, before you brought up the mind click

thing of putting yourself out there, where I was also ready to listen because we had a

previous

relationship, you and I were sitting like this, um,

at the Nomad Hotel in the library bar, and

Paul: my dad

Dan: had recently died, or I think, yeah, he'd recently died, we had a memorial service, I'd done all this journaling and self exploration, and you just went on this incredible retreat.

and did a whole deep dive. You mentioned your dad earlier before, but I said like, what did you get the most out of it? And you were

like, just a greater love and appreciation for

your parents,

right? And I was sharing

what I had gone through with the loss of my dad

and um, how I was able

to actually, he might've been like the first real interview I did because he died.

He came back to life and I got to like interview him and ask him all the questions I was too scared to

ask him

over my,

Paul: over

Dan: my life. It was amazing.[00:30:00]

Paul: Um,

Dan: But because we had shared that with each other,

again, it opens up

this

real kind of heart to heart connection where

I think if your heart is open, your ears are open, then that's where you

listen.

Paul: Um,

Dan: and I think

It was shortly after there you started working at MindClick, and then

you said that,

But because of

that,

because you created space for me, I created

space for you,

whenever we

connect with each other,

it's like a real meaningful, we're both hearing each

other.

Completely. Right?

Paul: we haven't sat together like this for Don't know like we we see each other at BDNY or HD and it's like ships passing in the night But I think the last time we sat kind of in a quiet room like

this was probably

at the Nomad

Yeah, which was what we said 2018 early 2018 But I agree.

Like, if you show up the right way, I think other people will meet you where you're

at. If you show up closed, even with personal [00:31:00] relationships, you know, family dynamics, at

work, like,

you're responsible for at least 50 percent of what you bring to the table. And, like, if you're bringing your full 50 percent open, chances are the other person will, like, maybe not meet you all the way, but they'll meet you closer.

to where they would otherwise meet you if you, you know, show up with a bad attitude or bad energy.

Dan: If I could also go back to that

story of us sitting

there,

you shared another story of, I think it was before you were in college, it was you were in high

school

and you had like a

near death experience, right?

And try and tie,

I want you to share

the story if you're okay with it, but also kind of tie that into how you learned how to,

how that helps you with vulnerability.

Paul: Yeah. So I was

actually in college.

Dan: Oh, you were?

Paul: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was in college. I was

studying in Belfast in

Northern Ireland.

And this was, I was

a college there

from,

um,[00:32:00]

1996 to 2000. So this

was, this was like in

1999. I was in my final year and at the time I played, I played soccer for the college, but I also played soccer on like a, in like the professional leagues in Ireland. So I was playing for, I had a game, back there you can play club and college at the same time.

So, we had a, the club team had a game in Belfast, um, but the,

team that I was playing for was from a different part of Northern Ireland. So rather than me travel an hour away from Belfast to come back to Belfast, I said, guys, I'll just meet you at the stadium. I'll know an hour and a half before the game.

So this was kind of before the peace process. This was like, um, you know, it was, there was still a lot of like stuff happening in terms of terrorism and bombings and shootings and whatnot. And [00:33:00] at this time there was This 60, it was 45 or 60 days, I can't quite remember, but there was, there was a tit for tat like murder happening every day of, um, a Catholic taxi driver would get shot on a Monday, and on a Protestant taxi driver would get shot on a Tuesday.

And this was going back and forth for like weeks on end, and every evening the news, it was just, it was like a headline. And I had to get a taxi. In the middle of this whole thing, I had to get a taxi from the middle of Belfast to like where the stadium was. Belfast was very segregated at the time.

And there was like roads and streets that if you were a Catholic or a Protestant, you just didn't cross. There was no, it was like, there was parts of the city that could have been another country. I just never even thought about going there. Um, and, but the stadium we were playing at was in a part of the city where I'd never been before.

Um, and [00:34:00] probably shouldn't be. And I was like, God, I have to get a taxi in the middle of this, you know, crazy, every, shootings every 24 hours. So I went to the nicest hotel in the city and said I'll get a taxi from their lobby that decreases my chances of getting murdered tonight. Um, I can laugh about it now.

But, so I get in a taxi, it's like, you know, Winter weather, it's miserable outside, and we're driving through the city. We cross the street that I'd never crossed before, and we start to like, drive down these streets where there's just crazy sectarian slogans on the sides of buildings. Um, a lot of the streets are kind of boarded up, and kind of, And we come on the street where there's concrete barricades where you have to like zigzag like S shape through the street.

And there's no street lights. They're all like kind of busted [00:35:00] and most of the houses are just boarded up. And I could have been like anywhere in the world. It wasn't even the same study where I like lived in as a student. And we come to the top of the street and I see two black silhouettes in our headlights.

And I can tell that they've got machine guns strapped across their back. And I was like, Oh my God, this is like, this is it. Like I'm, I'm done. And I just sat in the back of the taxi with my head down and I just started praying. And one of the guys came up to the car and the other guy kind of stood in front of the car with his hand out, no telling us to stop.

So as the guy got closer, I could see that he had He had a black balaclava on his face and he just had, his eyes were cut out in his mouth and he was all, all in black. And he came up to the car, the driver put the window down and he said, where are you going? And he said, I'm going to the Oval, which is the stadium where I was playing.

And he said, who's this? [00:36:00] And he said, this is one of the players. And he got his machine gun and put it. And he like pushed it on my throat and like I was kind of choking on my Adam's apple. And he said, um, who do you play for? And that's basically a question. Are you Catholic or Protestant? And I was raised Catholic.

I was, um, until that point, I was playing for an all Catholic team. And a few months earlier, I transferred to an all Protestant team. And I was like. the only Catholic on the Protestant team. And when I said the name of the team, that was his like, he was like, okay, he must be a Protestant. And he scraped his gun off my chin and took like a lump of skin with him and said, go ahead.

And I never spoke to the taxi driver. He never spoke to me. He drove me to the stadium and I was like, just shaking like a leaf. [00:37:00] that

Dan: up

And

deal with it later? How did you

process that?

Paul: I kind of didn't. Like, I didn't tell my

parents until maybe like 15 years later.

Dan: Wow.

Paul: Because my mom at the

time wanted to take me out of college because she thought it was dangerous.

And I

was like, well, if I tell her the story, there's no

way I'm finishing college. So I just kind of told a few friends. And

Dan: and you'll get stuck

on all those

construction sites that

your dad was

Paul: Exactly. I'll be shoveling concrete for the rest of my life. Um, so

Yeah. I

never,

I'd actually, I never really like, no, processed it. I actively, intentionally processed it for

years later.

Um, I I, started that game and I like, was like a lamp post on the field. I couldn't even move. I just was like frozen. And the manager yelled at me for 45 minutes. And at halftime, he sat me down, he was like, what the F is wrong with you? Like, he just, he just was like beside [00:38:00] himself, and I just wouldn't even move for the ball.

I couldn't, I was just like, paralyzed. And he just like, subbed me off at halftime. And I was like, gosh, I just want to like, go home and see my mom.

Dan: I can't even imagine. But if

you

if

if you think about

on your journey,

and

kind of getting the most out

of others and vulnerability and meeting them where they are. um,

I remember you sharing that story

with me

when we were sitting at the Nomad Library bar and I just

like

struck. It

was,

it was crazy because I can't even,

I

can't

even imagine. But where I wanted to go with

it was, um,

you shared

it with me

and then we were talking about what we were

doing. And then,

I think in the what you were doing, you had a crisis of, maybe not a crisis, but like a lack of confidence that like you were kind of not

centered on your [00:39:00] values because you were just building stuff.

You weren't taking into account

the sustainability angle or hospitality for the planet or whatever you want to call it.

Um,

And then I think from that point forward you really started looking and

you,

you, you changed what you were doing. You found this passion. I almost got the feeling after that conversation that you might have wanted to go into a whole

different track.

Right? Yeah. So how,

in a way,

what I'm trying to think about is like how, have all those steps,

and the shocking ones too, um,

help you be more vulnerable to help you get the courage

to

not leave what you were doing,

but actually

forge a new

path

to create all of this

impact and get everyone else on board, or as many people

on board as

you can, to

impact the world

positively.

Paul: Yeah, [00:40:00] going back to

that incident, in hindsight, think it's given me, like,

perspective that I couldn't like otherwise get. And that really was like a

life

or death situation, like literally. And, you know, a lot of the conversations that we want to have, but are afraid to have, are not life or death situations.

They're just conversations. And

I wouldn't say that like, that became like, that's what led me to anything. But I think that incident Has definitely made me realize that It's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to be open. Um, it's not the end of the world, you know, and I just think, Dan, when you When you can be like Open and honest But also humble Nine times out of ten Like people will listen to you and like meet you where you're at But someone has to be willing to go there.[00:41:00]

I think so many, there's just, so many of us are walking around wearing masks and we're trying to like, be perceived as something we're not. Um, and there's a whole host. I mean, we could go into the whole Hoffman conversation for another hour on that as to why, but you know, I would say that incident in Belfast when I was a college student and Hoffman are like two of the biggest, things that happened in my life that whoever I am today, like those two incidents were, had a big, big, um, influence on it.

Dan: okay, so if you were to add that in the

terrorist incident, the gun

at

your throat with

Hoffman,

because you didn't do half until 20

years. later, maybe,

Paul: 19 years

Dan: 19 years later.

Um, and

then you feather in that kind of crisis of confidence of the, what you were

Paul: doing.

Dan: It took 20 years. Like

if [00:42:00] things don't happen overnight,

but how did that, how, if you add those two things together and all the

other

work that you were doing and introspection, how did that give you the courage to

not leave your

vocation,

but to forge a new path?

Paul: Well, so the current role I have at

Highgate is like, you know, EVP of Lucid, which is our in house design And construction studio.

And that role is basically overseeing all of Highgate's design and construction activities globally now for the company. And I've had this like little, not little, I've had this moral, internal moral crisis of, gosh, you know, I love what I do. I love creating I think even as much as loving creating stuff, I love building teams and like seeing teams punch above their weight.

Like that gives me, sometimes like the, what we create as the by product of like making people punch above their [00:43:00] weight, um, versus the other way around. And,

when I took this role, I realized that, gosh, this conflict that I have We're creating all this stuff and it's beautiful, but we're kind of doing it with our eyes closed and we're not even like thinking about the impact, um, let alone measuring the impact. So when I took this role, I was like, gosh, I, I think now I have like a platform to like maybe create some change.

And like with the platform for me came like a responsibility to create change. Like, I don't think it would be. Right for me to just have this, you know, no, Highgate's got plus or minus 500 hotels. I don't, and we're renovating, you know, gosh, I think, like, in the last two years, we've probably renovated, including select service, we've probably renovated 70 plus hotels.

Um, so, [00:44:00] like, I can't sit in this seat and have that platform and not try and use some of it for good and try and create this change that. I mean, we're probably like to use a baseball, you know, we're probably in the first or second inning in terms of like where we need to go. But at least for me two years ago, I wasn't even like in the game in terms of like impact and change.

So, yeah, one of the first things I wanted to do when I took this job was have a conversation with our leaders about guys, exactly what I just said to you, like I have this conflict, I love what I do, but I think there's an opportunity for us. To like make, be the agents of change and like it doesn't have to cost a lot of money.

It's just, it's to me, it's more about changing mindsets and getting these conversations embedded into projects on day one. If you try and like embed, you know, a sustainability initiative or bringing in another consultant or asking vendors to change, you know, their, their ways of doing business [00:45:00] midstream, it's kind of impossible.

It has to be. intentional at the kickoff meeting. Like, here's what we're trying to build, here's what we're trying to create, what sustainability is really important to us, and here's the things that we want to measure, and now let's talk about who are the people we need to surround ourselves with to like, you know, to measure.

So it, it's, it's something that I take, it's not passive for me, like this is like intentional and it's kind of a, a mission. Um,

Dan: And that's what, when you originally said it to me, there was almost,

um, I could tell the level of

importance just in the way you were saying it to me. I was

like, okay,

I hear you

Paul: And there's so, there's so

much more we have

to do. Like, I'm glad we're started.

Dan: well, let's, let's talk about that because again, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Ultimately

you can question whether being human is

sustainable,

Paul: right? Yeah.

Dan: Like we're messed up and flawed

[00:46:00] beings. Um,

when you, found your voice on this new

platform and this became important to you and you

started winning hearts and minds to come over onto your, onto your

strategy,

environmental strategy,

like walk us through some of the metrics, the measurable metrics from that first

project you did to kind of where you are now and then

what's exciting you most about the future.

Paul: So the first project we did was the Hyatt Regency in San Francisco, and this was like 2000 into 2001. Um, and all we measured in that project was the FF, the impact of the FF& E, and how all of our vendors were performing based on a mind click rating. Um, and It was a huge effort because in that, in that case, we didn't start it on day one.

Like, the project was [00:47:00] happening, we were about to like, um, go into model room review, so like, POs had been issued, you know, furniture had been delivered. And we were like, we might not, we might not do well here, but let's just start. Like, let's not wait till the next project, because that could be another couple of years.

So we just started, um, and we actually got a really good rating. Because the whole team got behind it immediately. And, and some of the, some of our vendor partners changed how they're doing things midstream on the project, which was incredible. So, you know, that was kind of like FF& E. Um, and now since then we've hired a VP of sustainability, who's just, who's focused solely on what's Highgate as a company doing from a sustainability standpoint, not just, you know, Lucid is part of it, but, you know, we, operate about 500 hotels and there's opportunities in every single hotel to change, um, from no single use [00:48:00] plastics to how we wash linens to solar to EV, um, what type of mechanical systems are we, do we have in the buildings, what kind of rebates can we get from local, no jurisdictions to, you know, change to like, you know, smart thermostats.

There's, there's, within the Highgate ecosystem, there's so much. action, active action right now to move towards a more sustainable company. I think for Lucid, I think it's expanding the FF& E effort and getting more and more people to get on board like you guys did. Um, I think OS& E is a big area because that's a consumable that's constantly getting like, you know, more Changed out and re bought and re bought and re bought.

Um, and I think it's build, base building materials. Um, you know, we're starting to do more ground up construction. And I think [00:49:00] there's a massive opportunity for us, again, at our scale, to like, go to some of these big, you know, suppliers and say, Guys, this is important to us, and it's important to us now, But guess what?

In five years, it's probably going to be important to everybody. So like, get on board now.

Dan: You know, on the base building materials, I was recently listening like the, like yesterday or the day before to an interview

that, uh, a journalist, I'm a big fan of Kara Swisher. she was interviewing Bill Gates on a bunch of his

initiatives and on sustainability.

He was talking about, you know,

um,

From creating energy to building materials. And he was saying, he's like, listen,

concrete is one of the biggest

carbon contributors. Um, he said there are other alternatives, but they're

super expensive. And, but he said once

you get a couple of people trying to do it, and there's a will and a way.

the scale, like it'll grow and then the [00:50:00] scale will bring the cost down tremendously to where it's on par. And I have an experience of that just with the advent of the US Green Building Council, USGBC and LEED.

In

2018 I became a LEED accredited professional

and we changed our supply chain of what

we, what we could use in building our

furniture. And around that time in 2018,

2017, um,

Oh no, it must have been earlier. It was

2008. I'm so

sorry. I missed a decade. It was 2008. Before 2008, you couldn't even get, or

it was difficult to get and expensive, to get low VOC.

Plywood or MDF or just glues without added,

um, urea formaldehyde. Now you can't find the other stuff and it's only readily available.

And on par, aside from inflation, the cost is pretty much the same as it was. And it takes leaders like California

and the Clean Air Resource Board and LEED and MindClick and your, your [00:51:00] efforts and other people in our industry

and, uh, and construction in general. We're. That biggest contributor of I don't even know the technology behind,

um, more sustainable or less carbon off,

um, emitting concrete.

But

if there is widespread adaption, adoption,

that moves the needle tremendously. But again, it takes

these,

these little trickles and water and, and, and raindrops to create that

waterfall. So, so with that in mind, as

you look to the future, what's exciting you

most about the future?

Paul: the more people I talk about

how do we become sustainable on how we deliver projects. Even in the last four years, like the conversation has shifted. Where there's like less resistance today than there was four years ago. And people are like, how do we get on board? The conversation is becoming more mainstream and it's becoming [00:52:00] more

like, being sustainable is going to, my hope as a being sustainable is going to become business as usual versus what business as usual has been up to this point.

Um, and I think there's a lot of other

forces and regulation common, um, where, whether people want to think differently or not, they're going to be forced to. to kind of stay in the game.

Dan: Okay, and then with on that

note, what kind of an outsized role or megaphone, or I think you said a halo effect earlier,

can our industry have

to construction at

large?

Paul: the folks with the big platforms have to get on board because they are the, that's the bread and butter For For who, who gets to work on what.

So, the players with the biggest voices can create the biggest change. Because others will [00:53:00] follow. Um, so, you know, and that's, even talking about construction, you know, we've started to enter RFPs. Like One of the measurables that we didn't measure in the past is talk to us about your waste management plan.

And like, where's the, where are like the bathtubs and where are the water closets that you take out of the building? What's happening to them? Where's the drywall going? Where's the concrete going? Um, where's all your waste, the amount of like wood that's wasted on a project from just like all the cuts is like crazy.

So, and we actually asked them at the start, they're like, wow, like, are we going to lose a job because of this? And I said, it's an ingredient, like what you do with the stuff you do out of this building matters to us. So I'm not saying you're going to want to lose a job, but it's, it's part of the [00:54:00] valuation criteria going forward.

Dan: but you know what, you know what else I really appreciate that about that is that

if you can't measure, you can't change, like you

said, but also

going back to how you

kick off a project, where it's intention and setting this up at the beginning. To hear you say it's in the RFP

process,

it's really incredible because if you're,

oftentimes people won't go and do this stuff because they want the perfect solution

Paul: perfect is the enemy

Dan: of good. Perfect is the enemy of progress. Because

we kind of have to bump into things and break

things and be unhappy with what's going on.

Paul: the results. Yeah, healthy friction so that

Dan: Like

Paul: Like perfect will stop us from starting. Yes. Um,

and so when so we started

to talk to no listen to the contractors as to why

This is difficult for them. So then we started to say guys. Why don't you tell us as RFP? Like Let's try and, [00:55:00]

because they said this is going to cost us money. We're like, we know that, but we're willing to listen to what the cost is, because that cost may be worth it to us in the long run. So, we asked contractors to, if you were to try and divert 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%, try and break down your projected waste on the project into like, quarters, and tell us the premium that you think it would add to your project.

bid as if you were just throwing it wherever it needs to go. Um, and we'll, we'll look at that and we'll evaluate it and we'll do the, no, but we do the same. We create a level playing field. So it's not one contractor thinking, well, if I like divert 50 percent of my waste, I'm going to be like, no, half a million dollars higher.

It's across the board. And then we look at that and we're like, guys, this is really important. Like are there parts of the project that we could VE? Is there things we could do differently? Cause we need to try and, And get this embedded into the project now, because if we do it after the RFP, if we do it [00:56:00] after the budgets are set, it's not happening.

It has to be at the beginning. so, those are the things we're like, how do we flex our muscles a little bit to create more of this change? And look, on the first project, and some smaller projects, it's not feasible today, but at least we've started that conversation. And on the bigger projects, you know, where maybe you're dealing with more sophisticated contractors who have more resources and more like networks.

It's like, maybe we divert 25%, but guess what, that's 25 percent more than we had diverted, you know, on the last project. And we talk about guys, how can we get this to 50? So it's that big journey and it's, it can't be us beating up the contractors. It's like us bringing them on the journey with

us. As partners. I

Dan: know if I shared this with you, but I was just at the lodging

conference, And there was a sustainability panel and there was a gentleman named Bollie, something, I can't remember his last

name.

He does PACE

Paul: financing,

Dan: which is a really cool concept that hasn't really, [00:57:00] people use it, but I don't think people really

understand everything about it. And then, uh, there was this one gentleman next to me, I forget his name.

He

was, he brought up the Hotel Marcel up in New

Haven, which is the first,

I don't know. Passive house rated hotel. Um, there's zero emissions that it, that it gives off. It has a whole solar farm.

And I know, I've interviewed, I think I sent that to you, but Bruce Becker, who's the architect, developer, designer.

He is so passionate that,

um, hotels, because they spend more on CapEx than other commercial real estate

assets,

could

pro, if they really wanted to, they could become zero emission or passive house or something within 10

years. Um, That could be on one end of the

spectrum, right? But, but now he's been open for a year and the gentleman sitting next to me was saying further to whatever their performer was because of all

of these sustainability initiatives from solar to heat pumps, to,

low voltage lighting, to

all the things that they've [00:58:00] done.

Um, They're actually, whatever their proforma was, they're outperforming their proforma because their utility costs are so much lower.

And it, so it's a dollars and cents

thing now, which hotels

and

commercial real estate are. But if you take Bruce on one end of the spectrum, who says the whole industry can convert in 10

years if they, made their mind up.

And then on the other end of the

spectrum, I've mentioned that project to other developers who are used to developing things their way. And they say, Oh, that was a unicorn project. I could never get done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle,

if you set out with intention to do it from the beginning.

And I actually think

Just hearing Bruce's passion and his vision, I think it can actually shade way more over there. And my question to Bali from the Pace

Financing, or the Pace Financing

Specialist, was how do we, we see that gap of understanding

of what's [00:59:00] possible, it's

not,

how do we narrow it? And I think

it's leaders like you, and you're not alone in

this, but

it's setting

out with that intention on projects and a portfolio

of projects to narrow that gap.

What are your

thoughts on that?

Paul: It can't happen overnight. Um, and there are going to be projects in certain states or jurisdictions with certain project sponsors that are more, um, like amenable to being more sustainable. And it could be like, because an owner has got a long term hold, you know, vision for the project versus, you know, a company that needs to like develop it and turn it.

So there's a lot, there's a lot of factors that lead into like,

how sustainable can you

be on a project? But

I really believe that

like

the power is in the collective. And like someone's down on the street corner beating the drum about like being sustainable is not going to get us there, but [01:00:00] it has to be like a collective effort.

And, um, I do think that we can lean more in the direction that you were alluding to versus, you know, leaning towards 60, 70 percent versus 20 or 30%. Like I really believe that that's where we can and will end up.

Dan: going back to what Bill Gates was saying, the more we get to,

the more we lean over

here,

the faster we can get to,

scale.

The faster the cost of all of

those systems, the cost of trying to do green concrete, whatever that is. I

want to learn more

Paul: Carbon cure.

Dan: Um, the more that we do that and the little steps and little successes and the

little wins we have, it

becomes

that scale becomes real.

Paul: Yeah,

I completely agree. And People that are questioning it today, like, are going to question it less just as time passes.

Dan: Yeah.

Paul: Like, five years ago, would we have been having this conversation?

Dan: Maybe you and I would. Yeah. But I don't think it would have, I feel like [01:01:00] it's

catching fire in the industry. Yeah,

And I also think hospitality has an outsized role in that because from a storytelling

perspective, all of the guests that come

in.

If the staff is passionate, it helps you

recruit the whole team that works at the hotel.

They can tell that story and evangelize. Those people will go home and look at their homes, their communities, their schools,

and there is this halo effect that

can

happen.

Paul: It is a rebel effect, definitely.

Dan: it's an uncharted frontier or

untapped

frontier. It's starting, but I think it's gaining mass

and I think it will

tip

soon.

Paul: Yeah. Look, and I think as costs increase, insurances are increasing. Like, a lot of this stuff is happening because of, like, climate change. And it's, you know, we, I believe, we're a big part of that. Um, and I think being more sustainable.

Maybe like in a year over year view, you can argue, I don't want to do it. But if [01:02:00] you look, if you take a longer range view on the cost of not being sustainable versus the cost of becoming sustainable over the long term, becoming more sustainable is an obvious answer in my

mind.

Dan: Mm hmm. I Agree, I want to go I want to go back in time to you standing like a light post who

said on the soccer pitch

Paul: Mm hmm.

Dan: Probably scratch neck

after the gun shoved in your

throat Um,

If the Paul I'm sitting with right now, talking to here,

were

to magically appear in front of that light

post Paul,

what advice would you have for yourself.

Paul: well this is probably the stuff that I talk to my son about now,

who's about to go to college.

Um, Don't try to be everything to everyone. have better boundaries for yourself. like, trust that you are who you are and don't try to be someone else. Because I think I probably [01:03:00] spent a lot of time doing that in my younger years. Um, probably, like, mostly in career. Which, you know, it's, was it good, was it bad? Like, there's a Chinese proverb, right?

If you have good luck and bad luck, is it really good luck or bad luck? Who knows? Um, but,

I, I think it would be,

trust who you are and you'll be okay. I feel like that now.

Dan: Love it.

Paul: But I didn't feel like that.

Dan: Your son's name is Shane, or Shay? Shay. Shay!

Shay, I hope you're listening. We're gonna actually cut that

out. We're gonna make an mp3 and put it on repeat, and you can

go to sleep every night

at

college,

listening

to that.

Paul: Yeah. Shea is definitely

an improved version of what I was at his age.

Dan: and that's all we can

hope for as parents and stewards, right? it's like every, every generation be a little bit better

than the

last.

Paul: I actually. I'm not saying this to be corny, but, and it's a weird,

maybe thing to think or say, but I

believe it.

Even though he's like 18 so [01:04:00] many times, I feel like he's my North star. And like, he's got such, just old soul morals that there's so many times where I'm like, wow, that's smart. Yeah. Um,

Dan: this has been wonderful.

Paul: Yeah, it's been great.

Dan: Thank you for hosting us

here. Um, if people wanted to learn more about you,

Highgate or Lucid, what's the best way for them

to

find

Paul: out?

Um, I mean, there's luciddevelopmentgroup. com is our website. You can see the whole team on there. highgate. com is the company. Um, my email.

Dan: Cool. And we'll put the LinkedIn up there.

Paul: Yeah, on my LinkedIn. We've got like Lucid LinkedIn. Perfect. Um, which we just started. You know, so we just, Highgate always had DNC.

It was Highgate

DNC forever. And then three ish years ago, Um, we were [01:05:00] starting to kind of like re, look at the team, look at like our, our growth, like just,

kind of like making sure we had the, the right engine in place to support what needed to be supported. So we really went out methodically, intentionally, slowly, um, kind of started to like augment the team.

And, um, we said, look, we've got some incredible people. We've got some incredible talent. We're doing some incredible projects, not to toot our own horn, but like, I believe it. Um, we said, let's, let's rebrand, like, let's give ourselves identity. Um, so about three years ago, Lucid was born. Um, and then we had a website and we now have our LinkedIn.

So, and we're actually now about to do our first, like third party project, like outside of the Highgate ecosystem, um, which was something we talked about. Maybe one day we'll start doing that. Um, and here we [01:06:00] are.

Northstar

Dan: strategy. This has been wonderful

for me.

Thank you.

Paul: Yeah.

Thank you.

Dan: And thank you to all of our listeners because without you guys tuning in every

week, we wouldn't be here in this amazing spot, talking to the likes of Paul and other people who are making a tremendous difference in what we're doing.

So

Thank you.