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What on earth does feedback have to do with growing revenue?
A lot - and in this episode we share some approaches to feedback we've taken - and how they help you get better as a team or as an individual.
Also while we have your attention, please provide feedback on this episode by dropping a note to podcast@growblocks.com
Creators and Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:09] Mikkel: we're back, back in the studio again. There we go. We have cables everywhere. We do lighting is on we're pipes on the background pipes in the background we're recording. And today we're gonna talk a bit about feedback mm-hmm and how to give it.
[00:00:25] Why it's important, how to build a culture of feedback. And also, should you listen to all feedback? Well, we're not gonna do that now. We're gonna do it in the end, right. It it's coming. Just wait for it. And I think the first first thing is why is feedback important?
[00:00:44] Toni: Yeah, I think, um, many, many ways to go about that question?
[00:00:49] Honestly, I think number one is just a., do you want to get better at what you do? Mm. That could be the first question you ask yourself, and you will try really hard in getting better at whatever you do, but eventually you'll find out that someone else's opinion might be helpful on that path.
[00:01:06] Right? So you, you can tie it to personal growth, personal development, all of these, all of these things. I think another thing is also. And maybe this is more of a darker corporate reality piece took it there fast, um, you know, trying to avoid to get fired.. So if your boss is telling you, Hey, you know, you should be doing this like that.
[00:01:29] And I think you did this wrong like that. And we're gonna get to how to give, you know, feedback and a little bit, but, you know, I think it's, I think it's healthy for you to listen to that. Yeah. It's healthy to have. At least, you know, a quick step back and be like, okay, what about this? Can I take away here?
[00:01:47] Yeah. Right. And, and I think the, you know, why many people maybe don't wanna listen to feedback is probably more because they don't want to hear it. Right. It's always, it's kind of always bad news. Yeah.
[00:02:02] Mikkel: It's like you get the meeting in your calendar. Yeah. And you already then know, oh no, yeah. I'm, I'm gonna, you know, get a scolding or get fired.
[00:02:09] Like sometimes that meeting appears and you know, what's
[00:02:12] Toni: gonna, yeah. So I, I think kind of setting a specific meeting for feedback. That's, that's maybe also not the best, you know, how to, but, uh, I do believe that, Let's just say it the other way. Whenever I got feedback, I hated it. I hated that moment. I hated that situation because it's always Tony, you know, you're not good enough.
[00:02:32] This over there is fucked. And I just don't see how anyone is enjoying that. Obviously kind of you go out of the situation, you look back, you probably kind of happy about it. Uh, you probably hopefully learn something. And maybe you're gonna be, you know, a better professional, better person, a better whatever.
[00:02:51] And, and this, you know, this feedback thing is not just a, professional thing. It's also, you know, with your spouse and your partner and forth. Right. those are, those are not great moments when, when someone tells you that, you know, something isn't kind of perfect and that you need to okay.
[00:03:06] You know, let me adjust that. Yeah. You know?, no, but I think that's generally speaking, you know, that's, uh, that's. There's at least for me, the purpose of feedback, right. Is to, to try and help someone to get better. And I think
[00:03:16] Mikkel: you also see it with the teams that perform really well. They're really good at giving each other feedback.
[00:03:23] It's not necessarily a manager direct report scenario. It's a, Hey, we worked on this thing together. Here's how we can improve as a team and a collective or even as individuals. Right. Yeah. And that helps improve the team. Uh, so it doesn't have to be just the manager direct report. and that's really why it matters to, to, I think, for us to talk about when you wanna grow a and scale, a company feedback is an important ingredient in, in growing a business.
[00:03:49] Mm-hmm
[00:03:50] Toni: yeah. And to be honest, I'm, I don't think I'm the best one in, and even also, definitely not receiving, but also not giving feedback. So I'm also looking for looking forward to the tips, how to some tips. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've lots of stories to tell, I think on, you know, you know, what and who and why not and all of that stuff, but we'll, we'll get that a.
[00:04:08] Mikkel: That's great. So I think the next thing to dive into is, how kind of, how to do it. And maybe before we do that, there's one thing that just hit me. People give feedback very differently. Mm-hmm. Some were, you have to listen to some cues. Others will sit down with you, have a very clear structure and tell you a, B, C, D.
[00:04:32] And you talked about this thing around. I wanna be able to not just, Excel, but also keep your job. What are some cues you think is worth to look out for?, because some, like I said, they won't have that structured approach, but they will still give you hints at something that's, you know, wrong that you should change.
[00:04:51] Toni: Yeah. So one thing that, that I do use is. I'm I'm so I think I'm terrible at this sitting down structured. ABC and this. What is that, that, that, that sandwich that people talk about? Oh yeah, the shit sandwich and, and, and, and, and these kind of things. No, but I think, uh, small directive tweaks, um, usually director after meeting kind of, I think you should be doing X.
[00:05:15], I think this was, you know, this got too little attention. I think this got too much attention. And when you do it directly after a meeting, and if, if you can keep it on, on the, I think, and I observed, which usually is a much better way to, build a message than to say you did this.
[00:05:33] Yeah, you did that. Right by the were also by your marriage., and, and then it's, then it's just, just a quick one, right? It's a quick, quick directional kind of tweak instead of, sitting down and making a big thing out of it and, and acting like, Hey, this is a pivot. Now you need to kind of fundamentally change who you are.
[00:05:49] Mikkel: Right. You, you kind of did it with me the other day. Right. We had this all hands and I was presenting something and I can't remember what I said, but I. Immediately when I had said it it's like, you Mor what, what are you thinking? Right. And the feedback you gave was literally just a tab on the shoulder and you way out, to a meeting saying, Hey, that thing, try not to do it.
[00:06:11] And I was like, yeah, I know. But I think actually the, the important thing just from, from my point of view and the receiving end is I also have a chance to tell you that I'm aware mm-hmm that this is something I know should not have had happened. Yeah. And. I will do my best to never do it again. Right.
[00:06:28] And, and I think that dynamic and the feedback is very important as well, because who knows what's going on in the mind of
[00:06:34] Toni: someone else? No, exactly. And it's, so I've, I've had situation as a manager where, you land name, feedback, conversation that suddenly turns sour. Yeah. So again, right, the very easy one is like, you're just in the hallway and tap on the shoulder and say, Hey, more, this less of that done.
[00:06:52] Where, where it becomes really difficult is when, when it leaves the observational and, I think space, yeah. I don't know. Maybe you have a great solution for this. And it's like, and it more goes to the, I feel your behavior, you know, in, in that cultural way or something like that is off.
[00:07:09] Right. And, and the, and the reason for that is, or for example, another example is, your performance as a leader, mm-hmm. And this could be sales, it could be anything., and in sales you obviously feel well, that should be easy. It's the numbers. Well, it's not really only the numbers, but your performance as a leader.
[00:07:29], and then when you say something like that to someone, obviously there's like ohoh, this is, this is not good. This is, this goes to the core now. And you know, if you make it a serious situation, also, you will basically, get a rebuttal. Which I think is fair. I think people should not always just take it on the chin.
[00:07:49] And, and those situations, if you are not well prepared, can turn sour really quickly. Yeah. if you don't have at least three tangible examples of a specific behavior and, or action and so forth, and, those are, those are things where. Where I usually struggle to be honest. Right. Because sometimes you just feel and send somethings off.
[00:08:09] Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you feel something isn't working out. but then, you know, trying to find specific intangible examples and verbalize it and bring it across super difficult. Right. And. Lots of lots of opportunities for this conversation to turn sour and also this relationship to be, damaged actually afterwards.
[00:08:27] Yeah,
[00:08:27] Mikkel: because like we said, at the beginning, feedback is a way to build trust. but it can also destroy it. Yeah. And this is where I think the quick tweaks and tap on the shoulder, that's for smaller things, you don't wanna tap on the shoulder and say, Hey, you know what, your leadership, it's not great. Yeah.
[00:08:45] And I think that's where you're right. There's actually preparation that needs to happen. And there's a couple of tricks that at least I've adopted. I. The the first one is, called SBI. So situation, behavior impact mm-hmm is a simple way to even structure, quick feedback by the way. And it's, it literally goes situation.
[00:09:08] Where did it take place? Right. Okay. Do you remember, we had a meeting in this room yesterday with this person, that person, that person talking about, this is like, In that meeting, you were, leaned back, not really participating in the conversation. and then you said something that, stopped the meeting because you, you didn't know where the conversation was going and the impact it has is it makes you look unprofessional.
[00:09:34]. And that's very clear, then it's easy for people to recall. Right. And understand what is, what is happening based on the behavior. And then you can. Taking the next step and that is providing help. That's really key. I find, uh, that you don't just wanna tell people you have a problem with this here, offering potential solutions or discussing a solution is a great idea.
[00:10:00], because sometimes people don't know, obviously you need to, to have the relationship to understand the person, what you know, is it, is this, is it again? Is the reaction is, yeah, I. Then stop it then it's okay. Because they are where, um, you can then follow up and ask, well, do you know how to avoid it
[00:10:17] yeah. Um, or why did it happen? Right. Yeah. Those, those are important. And I think if this is a, a manager direct report situation, there might be other dynamics in place you, you need to
[00:10:27] Toni: account for. Yeah. And sometimes the answer just isn't that simple. Right. And I think it also depends on. The trust that is built between the two of you already and the, and maybe even the seniority of the other person to just say, Hey, I observed that.
[00:10:40] Yeah. And sometimes that's enough to, to trigger a thought process of how to fix it, because not always is the answer so obvious, not, you know, not always you as a leader, can say like, oh, you know, obviously you should have done. You should have done it like that. Especially, you know, as you know, in leadership and in bigger organizations and, in high intense situations.
[00:11:03] Yeah. Probably the person is better equipped to figure out what the right, next time reaction is.
[00:11:10] Mikkel: Totally. And I think you, you obviously have to be mindful if you do it because no one likes to be told how to do their job or how to behave. Mm-hmm I think the way where it's been very helpful is, Hey, this is my approach.
[00:11:24] And just leaving it at that, because then they might realize there's a couple of steps that they can do to then actually perform better or avoid certain scenarios. Right. And I know like the feedback you gave me, I was very aware of why did it happen? No sleep for a few days. And, not, not totally prepared to be honest.
[00:11:43] Right. And, and I think that's where you can totally control. Well, I can't control the sleep because, you know, if my kids wake up, that's kind of what it is. Right. But the preparation I
[00:11:53] Toni: can. So this is actually, it goes a little bit off track here, but it's actually, uh, called I think it's called fundamental attribution era.
[00:12:03] So. In many cases, people have, you know, based on the perspective you have, you take a different route of reasoning, why something happened. So the typical example is, you go to a supermarket checkout in front of you. You have a dad. With a screaming child and screaming child wants to have the candy bar or something like that.
[00:12:25] The dad says no, no, no, no, no. And then, you know, screaming, doesn't stop. And then a couple of minutes into the dead relents gives the candy bar. I've never done it. Never, never of course. you stand behind that person. You think what a weak dad. What, what a weak person and, oh, you know, this child's gonna grow up and be like, you know, all messed up.
[00:12:48] But then, you know, you switch around, now suddenly you are the dad with a child and, Hey, it's raining outside. You're picking up the kid late, forgot because stress at work, your partner's already home cooking and maybe it's Too late already. Yeah. And, and then this child started screaming and you just like had enough and just give the Kenny by and, you know, finally it, you know, it's not saying anything anymore and you just, that's it, right.
[00:13:15] So fundamental attribution era here is when you see it from a, the outside perspective, you will always blame the person. Will always be the weak dad. if you are yourself in the situation, you will always, put the, the reasoning for the situation on, on your surroundings. Never on yourself.
[00:13:34] You will never be there. Oh, I'm, I'm a weak person and therefore, right. And I'm not sure how it kind of helps with feedback, but it's, but it's, I think really good to kind of have in mind that, the way, you know, you as a, as a, as a person giving feedback and, you know, someone else is someone receiving it, how they will find the way in reasoning, why it happened and how it happened.
[00:13:55] Mikkel: I, I think it's it's a really good point, because if. Let's say you're not even at someone's manager and someone is, doing bad behavior for, for the sake of argument. Right. I think before giving feedback, it's certainly a good idea to consider. Why is that happening? Is that, is it a trigger at work or could something else be at play just to be mindful of it?
[00:14:19] because I think it's easy for us to judge other people really. And feedback is not a way to place judgment. Mm-hmm it's to improve and help each other at the end of the day. So I think that's, that's, super important.
[00:14:34] Toni: I, I do, I do believe though you can, you can't always know what's going on with the other person and, and that shouldn't be the reason why.
[00:14:43] Don't get feedback there, there should, you know, you shouldn't be scared as like, oh, you know, I don't know what's happening at home, so therefore I'm not saying it. I think that's wrong. I think what might be more helpful is to phrase it, first of all, in, in I messages rather than in you messages. And that could be, I think you that's already in I message.
[00:15:02] Right. and, uh, it can also be that. Instead of, pointing out specific things, you can also just focus on yourself and say, Hey, this is how this made me feel. Yeah. I think Facebook has a very, very strong feedback culture.
[00:15:15] And I think there spent a lot of time teaching everyone, some one, um, something similar to the SBI, but really more on the, Hey, you know, this is what happened. This is how it made me feel. and I think this is how I would like you to consider doing it differently in the future. I think there's, there's that approach basically.
[00:15:35] And I, and I, and I think what it probably does to people is, um, it makes it easier to also provide this feedback upwards. Mm. Also, to provide this feedback to people that you're not managing. Right. It's really a, Hey, you know, this happened and this is how it made me feel. And I didn't like that feeling.
[00:15:52] Yeah. Right.
[00:15:54] Mikkel: Totally. And I mean, so maybe that the next, the next point is, you know, really who, who should be giving feedback. Right. Mm-hmm because I think it's, it's not just we've talked about this already. So probably the za is already in the episode. Yeah. But it's not just a manager direct report.
[00:16:12] Toni: No, exactly.
[00:16:12] I think it could be, um, anyone to anyone else? I think what is important to keep in mind is, also a little bit where the specific expertise area lies with the person giving the feedback. And I think there's a bunch of areas where that doesn't matter, right. If. if you make me feel like shit, then I'm the expert of that feeling.
[00:16:36] And I can tell you that, you know, I think that's totally fair if this is about a presentation or a deck or a campaign or something else you did, then I don't know. I think then it suddenly becomes an opinion and, um, there are many of those and. Sometimes that's useful and all, but at least then the one receiving that feedback, which really is just an opinion at that point.
[00:17:03] That would be fantastic. What, what is, what is an opinion versus feedback by the way, but anyway, then, then, maybe it's really just not that helpful and maybe also. It's really difficult for the one receiving that feedback to take anything away from that. Maybe that person actually gets more confused by yeah.
[00:17:18] Yeah. You know, more, more noise instead of signal. Right. So
[00:17:21] Mikkel: Yeah. Um, so I think there's, there's two. Two types of feedback, right? Because you talked about whether it's opinion, there's feedback on an individual mm-hmm and then there's feedback on a team or a project a team has worked on.
[00:17:35] So internally here we have this thing called stacking the blocks, which is really about, Hey, now the work is done on this project. Let's actually sit down and review, how did it go? What can we improve? What have we learned? What, what feedback do we have as a team?. And I think there is obviously.
[00:17:52] Some of it will be subjective because it is right. It is gonna be, but some of it can also be objective if it, if we talk about something that broke down and we, we knew we probably shouldn't have chosen this vendor, we should have chosen that vendor or what, whatever it is. Some, some things will be very clear to the team.
[00:18:09] Toni: And I think so actually I've grappled with that for the last, I don't know, 10 years or so I think. You know, besides not wanting to receive feedback because it's always negative and I totally, cognitively know that it's a good thing.
[00:18:24] Yeah. I always struggled with whom whom to listen to what kind of feedback to listen to, because everyone will have advice for you. You wanna have an opinion and many times their opinion conflicts with. Someone else's opinion and someone else's advice. So how do you, not, not to say at least, your own opinion and what you think your yourself you should be doing.
[00:18:49] So I think it's, I think it's super difficult still, by the way, I haven't figured this out. This is not the oh, oh. And outcomes. I, I don't think I have figured this out. I think, when you, when you take it away from just, your own personal self, which is, in, in my case, you know, co-founding this company, it's, let's just talk about product market fit and funding that, right.
[00:19:11] Because it's to a degree, it's this, it's the same, very confusing process. Yeah. That you're going through, you talk about, Hey, I have this thing and it's really helpful. And, I think it could be helpful for you. Yeah. And then the other person says, no, I don't think it's helpful at all, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
[00:19:29] and now you're kind. Okay, well, is it, is it because the person is wrong? Is it because I explained it wrong? Is it because the product is wrong? Is it because of timing was wrong? What, of all of those. And there are probably 10 more dimensions by the way. Yeah. Yeah. What of all of these is it actually, that I need to tweak and.
[00:19:50] How do you fight the self doubt that comes every time, you know, negative feedback, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and then I think, product market fit is one thing, right? Yeah. but really transforming it to your own person. I think there are a couple of more dimensions that are settled for you as a, as an individual being like 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years old.
[00:20:09] Right. And having some experience in this. But I think it's the same concept that super confusing actually, all those different variables and, and the feedback you get, usually doesn't point out why something is wrong. It just tells you, negative signal, right. and I think
[00:20:25] Mikkel: that's where you, you obviously need to build up a filter because there's always gonna be the, the negatives.
[00:20:31] But there's also gonna be some positives and then it's, and I think you're in a very different situation when anybody who's a CEO, they will get a lot of feedback from a lot of different places and yes, it's gonna be conflicting. I mean, obviously. Co earns that spot and that trust because they're able to make a decision, not just on the basis of feedback, but also on the basis of whatever else they can find.
[00:20:54] Toni: No, that's true.
[00:20:55] Mikkel: And, and I think if you then flip it around and say, well, if you're just starting out in your career and you're a junior, then I think it's totally legit to listen to the feedback your manager's providing. And if you get feedback from someone else on the team, and you're unsure, talk with your manager, I, I think that's a good start.
[00:21:14] And, and, and again, it's very much like we talked about in the beginning, do you trust that person and even, Hey, is this a person you, you look up to and admire and potentially want to be like, because if the answer is no, then probably you can learn a thing or two, if they're successful, but you probably don't wanna listen to the entire feedback.
[00:21:33] No, that's right. I think trying to figure out, the why behind the feedback, why did it not work? Or why did I, deliver bad work? I mean, you can, you can kind of, you know, twist it in all kinds of different understanding. The circumstances is sometimes almost the, the better takeaway than, than the directional nudge you get.
[00:21:53] And then you said something else there that I just wanted to, uh, shortly talk about, right? There's this whole. Haters gonna hate, you know, you know, all this, all this, Hey, you know, negative people. I, uh, I think you should totally listen to these folks, by the way. I, I don't think you should just kind of, you know, zone them out and push them away.
[00:22:14] I don't think it's gonna be great for your mental health. That's not, that's not the part of this, this conversation here. But I do think, uh, besides people trolling, right? Um, again, important to understand why is, are they just having fun? But you know, negative, you know, people like that, Sometimes the reason why it hurts is kind of hits a little bit of a, of a kernel of truth, actually.
[00:22:36] Yeah. and all the ways, all the things around it throw all of this stuff out, but still, you can probably find some piece of wisdom in every shitty piece of, of feedback you get. Don't take the whole. Don't don't change your life around. Don't over, correct, because of it, but there's probably a piece here somewhere that you can take away.
[00:22:56] Toni: Right. And, and especially the ones that are, trying to be negative, it's it, it can be a great source of, of understanding actually. Oh yeah.
[00:23:05] Mikkel: And I think you, you can start seeing potentially a pattern, right? so, so I think, you know, it, it's, it's a really fine line to walk, right? What feedback to listen to, and, and there's not a straight answer.
[00:23:17] Anyone will be able to give you, you will have to decide for yourself. And I think you will find, there are certain people you will listen more to than others and actually bringing feedback. You're unsure about to someone you trust is a great way to just level check. Hey, is. Is there some truth to this because you're right.
[00:23:36] There might be some truth to it, but with adaptations, and then you can figure out the path forward. And I think, that's the, the other kind of the whole feedback piece is you wanna, you wanna be quick to actually implement it so you can do better. And I think you said it the, the other day you work with someone.
[00:23:54] Who was just excellent that got the feedback or reimplemented right.
[00:23:58] Yeah. So that's actually a good point. I almost forgot about this. I worked with like a very selected few folks that basically basically took this whole feedback thing as their super power. Mm. Um,
[00:24:14] sure. There's ego involved in all of that stuff, but basically, they iterated so quickly on feedback. But that, that helped them to outgrow other people, around them. And, and it's so fantastic. Once, once you, as a manager, a leader, figure out that someone is extremely receptive to not just your feedback, but feedback in general, it actually also makes it easier for you as a leader to give feedback.
[00:24:42] Toni: Oh yeah. You know, because. You now know, Hey, you're not gonna walk into a, a situation where suddenly, you know, the world implodes and, and you're gonna have an issue on your. But just then like, Hey, I actually know what's gonna happen if I give feedback to that person.
[00:24:57] So the barrier of entry for me to give feedback to the person is kind of lower. and that then led to more feedback to that person. And that person kind of then, as a consequence almost developed faster, right? So maybe 1, 1, 1 growth hack here is, Try and be awesome at getting feedback.
[00:25:15] You know, let's not, let's not talk about taking it and changing. Sure. You should probably also do that. And there's some tricks to that I guess, but, just make it easy for people to give you feedback. Oh yeah.
[00:25:26] Mikkel: I think the re the reaction and it's so hard, right. Because the best feedback really.
[00:25:31] Hurts. Yeah, it's called a growing painful reason. And I think the immediate reaction is you get defensive because it's a defense mechanism. People have to protect, protect themselves and, and their mental health quite honestly. Right. Mm-hmm but then, you know, you hop on the bike and go home or into the Metro, whatever, and then you start reflecting.
[00:25:50] Right. And then you're like, oh no. So, so I think at default state, if you know, now I'm getting some feedback and it hurts, try and just listen to. And get to the end, say thanks. And then that's it. Then you can follow up next day. Once you've had a chance to reflect and try and understand, Hey, what can I.
[00:26:12] then you can have the contract conversation if it's really, if it's, if it's really one of those that hurts, right? Yeah. and you won't have it that often, obviously it's gonna be, be maybe a couple of times a year, if you're lucky, I would say mm-hmm. and, and, um, I, I think actually just taking that, you know, pause at the end and going back is key.
[00:26:34] Toni: I think one other interesting, interesting perspective. Especially when getting feedback and when it hurts, and you kind of talked about, Hey, you know, the stuff that's true, probably hurts the most. And, and the reason is, why does something that's true, hurt the most kind of actually, you know, counterintuitive it's because you held an opposite belief.
[00:26:59] Yeah. Maybe strongly, and now are being. Not only told, but convinced that that belief isn't true anymore. And, and that process, and I'm kind of a hobby psychologist here. but that process is also, I think it's called, uh, cognitive, dissonance. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm so the, and I, I had this happen to me a couple of times, uh, very painful.
[00:27:25] I see it. I see it in other people a lot of times, actually also. So typical example is you hire someone and the process of hiring someone is a little bit also following a lot, with that higher in a professional sense, obviously. Right. But really, you know, and especially kind of a high stakes highest.
[00:27:45] So VP sales, VP marketing, kind of these kind of folks, you hire them in, you're totally convinced in the process, by the way you. Need to sell them also to the organization that, Hey, this is obviously the right decision to make and you know, all of that stuff. And, as you sell it, you get more and more bought into that.
[00:28:03] This is the perfect idea. And, um, then you know, that person stance and, sometimes you feel it in the, in the first freaking week. Yeah. It's like, oh, Or this gonna be this is gonna be, but at that point, you tell yourself, no, no, no, all of this is great. You know, he, or she's just getting started, yada, yada.
[00:28:25], and then, you know, then there's small little pieces of feedback creeping up from, you know, people around him or her and so forth. And you kind of feel it coming. Um, This is, you know, this is now the point where cognitive dissonance keeps you from jumping over to the, the, the right side. And realizing, oh, this isn't working.
[00:28:48] Right. Because you kind of keep on holding on to that, one decision that you made. And sometimes it really takes someone else to kind of yank you out of that. And that situation hurts a lot. That is kind of one of those examples of a belief yeah. That you, that you held that turns out to be untrue.
[00:29:05] Right. And
[00:29:05] Mikkel: I think that's very much a, that's really a managerial exercise usually. where you have a direct report and, you know, okay, there's some feedback here I'm gonna have to give very soon and it's gonna hurt. And the prep is so important. I, I just cannot stress this enough. You can't do it on a whim.
[00:29:26] And I think some of the steps that's been helpful to me in those situations when I had to give that feedback was actually to talk with the. And say, Hey, I am, you know, and actually it was a quarterly cadence, so it was normal. It was baked into the process that I talk with people and say, Hey, I would like your feedback on person X.
[00:29:45] It would be anonymized, but then I can use it related to the person. And often I found that the team would see the same as I was seeing. And they would maybe have a bit more context for me to understand, because sometimes when. A manager, you won't have the full picture and you can just see the smoke a little bit appearing.
[00:30:04] Right. Um, but you don't know exactly where the fire is. And the job of the manager is to obviously deliver the feedback, explain the impact it's having on the team in a, in a structured way, but then also enable a conversation on. What can you do to change, and again, you don't wanna just hand a do this, these exact steps.
[00:30:24] That's, that's not the point. People have to take, action themselves, but providing direction is critical because you wanna be in the call now and have that person's back. And also quite frankly, explain that you're giving this feedback because you want them to be successful and you know, it hurts, but this is a part of growing.
[00:30:41] Toni: No, and again, from a managerial perspective, right? It's It's also not only good practice, but also necessary to give feedback when you wanna, you know, manage someone out. Yeah. Because what's really, what's really, the worst situation is you end up firing someone and, and that person is surprised.
[00:31:03] Yeah. You know, that, that, that is a situation that you should be completely avoiding. You know, I'm not saying that the person should be seeing it coming and kind start to be worried coming to work and all of that stuff. It's not about this, but when it does happen, obviously there will be a surprising element there.
[00:31:21] But there needs to be a, as manager and in the story, you're gonna tell, because it's gonna be a story. You need to have a couple of folks to say this, this and that. And then, then it's gonna be, um, I think a much fairer conversation, but also has been a much fairer process. Right. And I think one last one last point around that actually it's really, um, you know, and this is really sales world, right?
[00:31:46] Performance improvement plan. You know, on two degree, you know, performance management and all of, kind of these buzzwords around it, it's really just an organized process of giving that feedback sometimes based on numbers sometimes based on behavior and, I think one really important bit here is, and, and, and you said it also yourself, right?
[00:32:07] Hey, you give someone feedback and you need to show a path out. Mm. Otherwise it's. It's just the, you know, the very long notice period. Right? it's, it's really about, in your performance improvement plan, giving this to someone and then giving that someone also the resources to get out, which then might, might need either coaching from your side or from someone else and so forth.
[00:32:30], but if you, if you don't, you know, if you don't give feedback without the opportunity to improve., then it's also really unfair for the other side.
[00:32:39] Yeah. I think then, you know, there's gonna be organizations where like you are, you know what you've figured out now we're giving you the feedback and I'm, pretty certain that the organization that have built a resilient culture around feedback, they are winning.
[00:32:54] They are totally winning, but I think this is, uh, you know, a great future episode, the whole. Performance management, because feedback is obviously a part, but there are way more steps to it. Mm-hmm so, you know, good little teaser for a future episode there go every year. there you go. But hope, uh, this was helpful.