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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take a
moment, a moment to sit on the threshold,
a moment to take as an invitation
to reflect on what has happened
both within your life
and within this minute,
breathing in and breathing out,
allowing yourself to ground and
center and simple, the breath holding
you, inviting center as you reflect,
breathing in and breathing out,
taking this opportunity to allow
your body, your thoughts, and
the emotional space to receive
your past.
And as you breathe in and
breathe out, I invite you now
to be with that.
Present to self, present to experience.
Opening your eyes to see the
room, and most importantly, to
see yourself a little differently.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
It's with deep pause and deep gratitude.
I I've been waiting for this conversation.
Amy, how are you coming in?
I'm coming in very grounded.
And excited.
It's a really cool combination of
feeling so rooted and filled with joy
and not getting swept away, right?
Feeling too heavy or too light.
It's just this, it's a
really great space to be.
Well, and what's super amazing for me
and what I adore is this idea that we're
going to do something new today, right?
We're going to spit in the psychedelic
psychologist's soup and we're going to
talk about the reality of psychedelics.
And I am so grateful that you are
going to do that as we've integrated.
We've talked a lot about that, right?
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
So my ask of you is what we're going to
do is we're going to know that you're
on the precipice of another journey.
So we're going to meet up directly
after in the next week or two.
Yeah, that's correct.
And you're in what I would
call the liminal space.
That you've had two big
experiences that we're integrating.
Yes, big ones.
Big ones.
What I want to know is what is the draw
to psychedelics and what drew you to the
therapeutic relationship of it recently?
Well, thank you for asking.
I was drawn to it at a young age.
At the dentist on nitrous, like a
lot of people say, and it was this
feeling of like six years old.
Like I belong here.
There's something here.
At six years old, and then fast
forward into, into the fours,
we'll say into my, my forties.
And I've been in therapy
for a couple of decades.
I have complex post traumatic
stress disorder, a lot of
challenges throughout my life.
And.
Many decades of therapy the methods
and modalities, the list would, the
listeners would have to sit here
for 15 minutes to hear medications
and, the different types of therapy.
And I kept being, it was like I was
called and we'll get to the medicine
calling, but I was being called to
something which I just didn't know.
And then a wonderful therapist that
I utilized was like, Hey, have you
ever read the body keeps the score?
And then from there, it was just, kind of
led me into, I mean, it's just, I was just
guided to me by spirit into this space
of, wow, remember, remember when you were
six or, and I've, I dabbled recreationally
back when I was in my younger years.
And so, Did a lot of research,
like a lot of folks read some
books and then by chance happened
to encounter some people who, you
know, utilize psychedelic therapy.
And they connected me with an
incredible guide that I can't
even, I have no words for my guide.
They are just I couldn't
do it without them.
I wouldn't want to do it without them.
And then.
you as my integration therapist.
So it's like, is this happening?
Is this real life?
So that's how I got here.
That's how we're here today.
I was sick and tired of
being sick and tired.
And I was tired of having to put pills in
my mouth to make everything feel better.
Yeah.
Can you say more about that?
Because I'm humbled by you in the sense
of your transparency around the complex
post traumatic stress and all the lineage.
And just to honor you on this side,
share with me a little bit about what
it means to stop relying on those pills.
What, what has transpired recently?
Well, I'm a very transparent
person and I've eliminated shame.
Shame is not welcome within me.
So I've been on any SSRI.
You can think of, Lexapro and
Paxil, and I'm talking years.
And then I was put on a decent sized
dose, two milligrams of L Prazolam.
So Xanax about 20 years ago.
And I.
Thought that was making me better.
I thought it was helping with
this extreme anxiety that I have.
And, you know, I was told I was almost
told more that I had it than experiencing.
And then the mind went, wait, you've
got horrible, horrible anxiety.
How are you functioning?
You got to take the pills, right?
Alice, take the pills, you know,
go small, go big, whatever.
Just avoid, avoid, avoid.
And what I realized,
Ryan, is that I was just.
Putting band aids over bullet holes,
and I really want to stress this point.
This is not the case for everyone,
and there's, disclaimer, there's
nothing wrong with medications.
There's nothing wrong with them.
For me, I just felt they weren't.
I wasn't healing.
I was stuck.
I was existing.
I wasn't living.
And then I found psychedelics.
And so this is where they kind of mesh.
Because I credit the medicines, and I'll
clarify, medicines to me are psychedelics.
Medications would be the pills.
So when I discovered the
medicines, it gave me breath.
It gave me curiosity.
They gave me courage.
To go, Hey, what would it be like
to get off those, those little white
pills that you're taking every day?
And when I did, I started
tapering with a prescriber and.
Laid out a plan.
And I mean, she basically said
here, take a year to do this.
And I went, no, watch me because
I have the medicines on my side.
And I mean, I started tapering down
half a milligram every two weeks and
realized that it was the Xanax that
was actually giving me the anxiety
because as soon as it would wear
off, my body went, wait a minute.
And so through the tapering,
I haven't had anxiety.
I think I've had it.
Once or twice in the very beginning
of psychedelic experiences.
But since then, I'm like that fucking
medication made me sick, me dependent.
It made me, I had no agency
and it gave me anxiety.
I appreciate your ability to see
the difference of agency versus
anxiety and the fact that you
saw it within the medication of
Xanax that was amplifying it.
Another thing I'd like to mention, Ryan,
is that it makes things, medications
can make things very confusing.
So for somebody like me who does
have anxiety due to a significant
amount of trauma from sexual
abuse when I was a child you know,
Rape, physical violence, a lot.
I mean, there's been a lot in
my life that I've experienced.
I still carry with me gratitude
and my strength for who I am.
But the medications can make
things confusing and even trying
to the discernment and, and
distinguishing, like, is this nerves?
Nope, it's anxiety.
It just instantly pushes
everything to nope, it's anxiety.
Instead of what if it's excitement?
What if those bubbles that kind of feel
the same you're so conditioned, the
mediation kept me in line behaviorism,
like follow suit, it's freeing and
I have deep reference for this realm.
It's changed my life.
It's given me life.
It's given me life.
And say more about that because
I know we've talked peripherally
about the two experiences.
You are actively tapering on Xanax
in between the two experiences.
Can you color with me what you're
integrating from maybe the first one
and then we'll unpack the second one?
I guess I should just jump right in and
say psychedelics for Amy are not fun.
They are not a party.
They are not me seeing kaleidoscopes and,
you know, God or Buddha or whomever it is.
My first experience on MTMA was all
physical and it was panic attack after
panic attack after panic attack for hours.
And.
I looked at my guide.
I mean, I took off my blinders
and looked at my guide.
Who just was so, just held space and
I was like, what the fuck am I doing?
Why am I doing this to myself
over and over and over?
And I learned that it was breath.
My guide just said, breathe.
And at first I wanted to say
like, why don't you breathe?
I feel like I'm dying here.
I need the pill.
I need the pill.
I need the pill.
Just breathe.
Stay with it and breathe
and ride the waves.
And that's what I did.
And MDMA gave me breath and
I'm a dual certified Yogi.
I mean, I know breath work inside
and out, and it gave me a breath.
I have never experienced.
And my guide didn't say, breathe like
this, my guides, listen to your body.
How does your body want to breathe?
And it was magic.
And.
The fear was just
gone.
I walked around in fear, am I
going to have a panic attack today?
Am I going to get anxious
when I'm at my son's game?
Am I going to, you know, freak out?
Am I going to, do I have Xanax with me?
I traveled, oh my God, I'm delayed
because of weather for two days.
I don't have my medication,
what am I going to do?
MDMA taught me just breathe, just breathe.
And then it made me realize like,
Why am I band aiding all this?
How are these wounds going to heal
if I keep them covered, right?
They need the air.
They need the blood.
And that's right.
I'm just so grateful for
that very trying experience.
It was hours and hours.
Your breath of fresh air regarding that
trials and tribulations is so vital to me
because I think there is an undercurrent
of our society saying it's going to be
unicorns and cotton candy and, you know,
the MDMA specifically has this, love
drug or, oh, it's going to be easier.
And your reflection on it is saying It
brought you to what you needed to heal.
And it's not for the light of heart.
It is not.
And I will say it is the love drug,
but not in the way that people
think, where it's like how you're
saying the unicorn and rainbows.
It's the love drug that I, it taught
me how to love myself hard enough.
That's the love drug.
Unpack that for me because
that's a beautiful statement.
Love you hard enough.
That's amazing.
I
experienced
a lot of, like I said,
physical sensations.
And then there were a couple
old traumatic memories.
One being the sexual
abuse when I was a child.
And the love for myself came first
through the radical acceptance
of this was never your fault.
This was not you.
And having to sit with that because I,
I walked around for years, had you not
done this or had you not done that, you
know, questioning and blaming myself.
Then the strength that I
talked about, that strength of
just breathing through these,
I mean, when I talk about panic,
I mean, it was so intense.
It was, I mean, sweating and I, I, I,
I, I can't explain it and I look back.
It took time, you know, a
couple weeks, a few weeks, the
integration, that's, that's what.
Is everything to me is the integration.
The medicines are beautiful,
but it's the integration.
And through that integration,
I was like, holy shit.
Do I love myself?
Do I love who I am?
How I show up as a mom, as a
friend, as a human, you know, and.
Yeah, that love.
Right now, what's the
emotion coming from you?
It's
just,
it's new.
And there are still parts of me
that I'm, you know, I can hear,
Are you sure you're worthy of it?
But it's soft.
And gentle, like you always say, through
the integration, you taught me how to
love myself by being soft and gentle.
I'm the girl that's working out constantly
to be perfect or look like this, or
present and perform for the world.
You, you taught me like how to shed
that armor to take what my guide
and I worked on together and then
bring that into a space with you.
And it's this beautiful collaboration
and y'all have helped me grow
this garden of love within myself.
And I'm grateful.
And I'm humbled by that
expression, and I'm super
appreciative of the transparency.
Yeah.
What led to the second experience?
Well, you don't, you don't have a say.
You don't have a say.
The medicine's just
calling people and ask me.
The, the close people I talked
to in my life, I'm limited with
who I share, not because I have
any shame, but this is mine.
And I want to say that to anybody out
there, you don't have to tell anybody.
If you have a integration, you know,
therapists like you, Ryan, and an
incredible guide and like, you don't have
to people, I like to, I'm proud of it.
And, and this is, it's life changing.
So I was called.
It's just this song.
It's this gentle song
and I know what it is.
It's like, Oh, this time
it's going to be psilocybin.
That's it.
And so I went into it and it was
again, no unicorns or rainbows for me.
For me, it was I was extremely ill,
extremely nauseated the whole time.
Wanting to throw up and
it brought me back to.
My fear of being ill when I was a
child and then through adulthood, like
being deathly afraid of being sick,
getting sick, specifically tummy sick
is what I call it, throwing up nausea.
And that was my psilocybin experience.
So like, like the MDMA.
It just was waves of constant
nausea, no pretty glitter,
but I had that breath from
that, that MDMA session.
And I utilize that.
And again, my guide was right there, right
with me and providing just that stability,
like knowing I wasn't alone, which made me
realize I was alone a lot when I was sick.
So there's a lot that comes out that you
just repress and Yeah, so it was extremely
challenging, just as challenging as
the one prior, but in a different way.
And yet, once again, knowing that
we've worked so long together is the
golden thread of not leaning on the
Xanax or medicating in a way that you
took it with yourself and for yourself.
I showed you in our integration sessions
in my purse, I had a black bag and
in the black bag, there was Xanax,
there was Zofran, there was Gasex,
there was anything, just in case, just
in case, because there's that fear.
And as you know from our last
integration session, there's no
black bag in my purse anymore.
I don't need it.
I have a breath.
Right.
And what I'm witnessing and I'm
literally bowing in humility with
your smile and your grace is, it's
the whole story of going through it.
You can't go around it.
You can't, the only way out is through.
The only way out is through.
Like the bear hunt, right?
Going on a bear hunt.
We got to lighten it up a bit here.
We're getting kind of heavy here, people.
No, I just, it's cool.
But what I want to say is let's
follow up the heaviness with, I
would do it a billion times over.
If I have to get sick every time or
anxious every time, where it comes for me,
people say the afterglow and, and whatever
you want to call it is the integration.
That's where it comes.
That's where this, this freedom just, and
then the light bulbs are just going off.
There's no expiration date on it.
There's no rhythm to it.
It's fucking awesome.
That's that to me is the journey after.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I get really excited.
So no, no, I want it in that, but, but
Amy, that after that you described,
speak to me about all the different
modes and modalities that it's not just
a heady game for you, you, you, you're
identifying integration as a holistic
approach as well, is what I'm hearing.
Absolutely.
I mean, we're talking
mind, body, heart, spirit.
I mean, there's the
transformation, the expansion.
Ineffable at this, still at this
stage, like, is this real life?
Is this happening?
Is this
coming out of the cocoon?
You know, the, the, the
wings are spreading.
It's, it's glorious.
And.
I go through, you know, challenging
journeys, and it may be that way
for a while, not, I don't know.
I don't care, it doesn't matter,
because the medicine brings what
I need, and I trust the medicine,
I trust myself, I trust my guide.
That's vital.
And, you know, afterwards, It can be
a day of sobbing, few days of sobbing.
It can be exhaustion.
It can be elation.
I tend to go pretty deep and
I take this very seriously.
So it takes me a few days and
then a week or two, then all of a
sudden it's like, ah, here we go.
Okay.
Okay.
It takes time, but I like that.
Let it simmer.
Like everybody wants the quick fix.
Doesn't work that way.
Doesn't.
Well, especially after years and years
of using tools and skills or even therapy
practices that they're asking for.
It's, it's what I'm really impressed by
you saying is Amy, it's incubating it.
It's allowing it to
unfold in its own time.
And at the same time, A direct respect for
you taking care of your body in the after,
not just trying to go, okay, now I'm going
to just blaze my way through life, but
walking incrementally back into the world.
Yes.
And I will start out.
Cause I think it's important for people
to know that before I found my guide,
I went the ketamine route in a clinic.
And there was just a a lack
of integration, which It was
ketamine is no shade on ketamine.
It didn't do what the
psilocybin and MDMA have for me.
It does help in a different way.
That
kind of gave me a peek into like,
Ooh, you need to tend to your body.
Right.
And then I do a really good job of.
Insulating is the term you gave me.
I didn't know that term.
I just felt like I need to kind of take
care of myself prior and then after.
And that's something you were really
great with me and integrating was
like, how are you tending to yours?
Are you, are you being
gentle with yourself?
And so I listened to my body.
If I'm tired, I rest.
If I'm hungry, I'm, I eat.
I just listen.
That's it.
Listen, don't listen to the external.
Don't even listen.
Maybe let's rephrase it.
Feel it.
What do you feel?
Do you feel hungry?
Do you feel like crying?
You know?
And then sometimes it's like you're on
the couch crying and crying and crying.
I say you, I'm referring to self.
And it's like, get up and go outside
at those bare feet on that ground.
And I just tend to myself.
And it's shifted how I.
The amount of sleep I get, what I, what
I put in my body, meat, it's gone for me.
It was, I'm back to, you know,
on my pathway back to being
a vegan and it's awesome.
And so, yeah.
And what, what I'm hearing and what I'm
reflecting on is you making it your own,
something that is so important to me and
something that I'm really indebted by
your expression today is you're feeling,
you're listening, you're shutting out net.
Because you're not listening to
the external, but amplifying your
discernment for the external.
Yeah.
So bring me up to speed with what are you
feeling and what are you listening to?
Because I know you're on the precipice of.
a big ceremony, how does one speak
now and how does one pivot to the
future and to what's alive in the
present with those eyes big and that
was a lot of questions in one question
that's my problem i do that thank
you for talking we all know this all
of us know this that listen Right.
Tell me that.
Thank you for calling me out six
questions in one and attention deficit.
Can you speak to me about what
you're doing to feel and listen to in
order to accept the next invitation?
Well, the, the most important thing
that I, I have to mention is you, Ryan.
Because our integration is what there's.
The integration, the preparation,
it's all commingling with one another.
And so working through and integrating,
I'm going to be integrating past
journeys, this, this upcoming journey.
So it's just a process that
it's, the whole thing is the
journey and it's never ending.
I'll never reach a finish line.
And so.
I think I forgot the question
because I'm hung up on it.
That's my favorite part about this
is that there was no question.
Yeah, I'm just, I mean, I'm hydrating.
I'm not exercising today.
I had a 90 minute massage.
I'm being Nice, thank you.
I'm gonna go have fun and watch my kid
play soccer, like, and I'm going into it.
I'm afraid.
Now, may I get nerves?
Sure.
But am I going to go,
holy shit, it's anxiety.
Oh my God.
Oh my God, fucking it.
No, it's okay, because I'll be fine.
Well, and as you know, because you built
the container, you've created the safety,
you have deep relationship and you have
deep trust for yourself is what I'm
hearing you listening to is not only to
the medicines, but trusting in yourself.
In your intuition, can
you see the council?
The council is your guide.
It's your integration therapist.
It's the people you choose to, talk
to whether it's friends, family,
if it's a community of other people
who explore with psychedelics, teach
their own, create your own safe space.
But the key word being safe.
Thank you.
Thank you.
What are you doing to walk
gently in this moment?
Allowing.
That's it.
I'm just walking gently by allowing
whatever is going to happen.
If somebody cuts me off in traffic, okay.
if, I don't know.
Just allowing.
Surrender.
I used to not like that word, but now I'm
kind of like, I'm kind of vibing with it.
Kind of vibing on it.
And in a public service announcement,
we do have to disclose that listening
to the grateful dead is also another
way to drop into being gentle.
You know what?
And if you're in a bad mood
down space, you put the dead on,
you're going to be just fine.
I promise.
And if you actually listen to the
poetry that comes from that music,
man, I'll tell you what you will
connect to people, to souls, to
energies in a way you'll never know.
You'll never know.
You'll hear the dead different once
you've done psychedelics, I can say that.
Let me rephrase, the grateful dead.
That's right.
Much love to you.
Thank you.
I bow humbly and I'm so grateful.
Thank you, Ryan.
I look forward to speaking again.
Me too.