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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: So you are in a meeting. People are talking, but you are not. They may even be making decisions that you don't agree with. What do you do? Well, maybe you WhatsApp your friend who's also in the meeting to say how ridiculous it all is. This is a common scenario, but what's stopping us from speaking up?
[00:00:17] Our guest on this week's We Not Me is Betina Szkudlarek, professor in International Management at the University of Sydney Business School, who has recently completed some in-depth research on why we often don't speak up and what we can do as leaders and team members to do so.
[00:00:37] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:44] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:46] Dan: And this episode, Pia, is something that's quite close to your heart, I think as a semi Dane, uh, half Dane about speaking up.
[00:00:56] Pia: Yeah, it is actually . I mean, so much of our day-to-day work is working with teams, and I find myself at the pointy end of asking tricky questions sometimes to hopefully, hopefully, well actually just to, to get everyone to think together and to contribute. But it is interesting sometimes 'cause uh, you are left in the lurch in the balance with no one speaking, and um, and that could be quite, quite an interesting experience. You get very used to it.
[00:01:25] Dan: Yes, indeed. Indeed. Yeah, well, it's, um, it's a, it, it, yeah, it's fascinating and, and of course teams are all about, um, not just diversity, but also inclusion. But how is it going is the question. And, uh, Professor Betina Szkudlarek, that we have on the show today, has done some research on speaking up that caught our eye a few months ago. And so brilliantly, we've got her on the show today, closing season eight of We Not Me. So, this is a fantastic place to end and, uh, so let's go over and hear from Bettina now.
[00:01:58] Pia: Big welcome to you, Betina.
[00:02:03] Betina: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:04] Pia: So, um, well it's interesting that we're going to be talking about speaking up 'cause we're gonna throw you a really difficult question at the beginning, which is what we do to all our guests. So it's a bit, it's a bit of, a bit of a tough welcome, but I'm gonna hand you over to Dan and, um, he's shuffling the cards and thinking of a topic that he can ask you.
[00:02:23] Dan: And I've come up with an absolute corker here. Well, the, the pack did. Um, this is good for a professor. I think the worst thing I did at school was.
[00:02:33] Betina: Um, I probably have a whole list of items, a whole list, I have to say, Dan. I, I am one of the students I would not like to meet in my class. Uh, I think, you know, questioning my teachers on a regular basis was one of the items. Uh, and I think my favorite ones when I was probably nine or 10, uh, in Poland on the 21st of March, the first day of spring, we also have what is called the day of, uh, I don't actually know the English term for that, but it's a person who doesn't go to school who kind of avoids going to school.
[00:03:13] Dan: Oh, a, a truant.
[00:03:14] Pia: A truent. We got someone who doesn't turn up, deliberately, doesn't go to school.
[00:03:19] Betina: There you
[00:03:20] Pia: There go. We've taught the prof something. We've taught the prof a new word.
[00:03:23] Dan: Yes. first, a
[00:03:26] Betina: So I remember being nine or 10 and kind of convincing half of the class to go and celebrate the day because that's what we should be doing since it was an official day. And I remember that. Uh. Most of my, you know, 9-year-old friends went back to school and I was, you know, one of, of the only few, if not the only one who did not. And I felt so bad and I was so apologetic. And, and I still remember my parents luckily laughing at me and saying that I think seeing my apologetic, you know, face that it's fine, it's all good. Um, but yeah, I managed to convince quite a few students to initially join me and not show
[00:04:07] Dan: It's in, in not just doing it yourself, but inciting a little bit of an uprising. That's, um, that probably says a lot about, about you, I would thought. Um, and so why don't we keep in that vein, Betina, and tell us a little bit about you, your, your sort of bio in a box.
[00:04:22] Betina: So, uh, I was born and raised in Poland, but then I moved to the Netherlands. Uh, and if you know anything about the Netherlands is, is a, it's a place where people are quite outspoken and direct. And they speak up their minds, sometimes, possibly to the extent that can be quite confronting for foreigners. Now then moving to Australia where I've been now for about 13 or 14 years, uh, at the University of Sydney Business School, I. I, I found quite a contrast in terms of speaking up, especially in, in, uh, meetings.
[00:04:56] So, um, I spent the last, uh, 10 years researching different areas linked to diversity, inclusion, leadership effectiveness and so on. Um, I also work with the United Nations on, on topics of kind of inclusive leadership, uh, in the context of grassroots project. So, kind of unrelated to the topic, but, but related to the topic is the frustration, which as I'm saying might be linked to that, uh, youthful, kind of, uh, rebellious way of thinking that if something is not right, you speak up about it.
[00:05:30] And, and that's where the project that we are going to talk about kind of came from, came about. That, that was literally the, the thinking around why do people who are so unhappy and complain so much about everything in the corridors remain so silent, where actually they are in a place where a decision and a change could happen?
[00:05:53] Pia: And, where, where did you study?
[00:05:55] Betina: Uh, I did my master's degree in Poland in political science and journalism. So again, speaking up was somewhere implicitly on the agenda. But then I learned pretty quickly that, um, being a politician back then meant a lot, speaking against what other people do, rather than proposing something meaning meaningful by yourself. And I didn't like that.
[00:06:21] Pia: That's a really interesting, that's a good definition of politics, isn't it, really? That, is it something meaningful that's useful or is it just to further your own cause?
[00:06:30] Betina: Yes. And, and the journalism was equally, uh, disappointing when I realized that most of Polish journalists were freelancers and never had any day off because then they wouldn't be paid. And, and that unfortunately, you know, like everywhere in the world, journalists, journalists are predominantly surging for something that is going to sell, which is not necessary always what, uh, we see as, you know, quality journalism.
[00:06:56] So yeah. So I decided that that was not a path I was going to follow. Uh, but I found passion in, uh, cross-cultural communication or intercultural communication. So coming from a very monocultural countries such as Poland, I realized that, uh, there are so many cultural differences in how we communicate when it comes to, you know, interaction with people from different parts of the world. And nobody knew back then anything about it in Poland. So I couldn't really imagine getting a job in anything related. So I decided to do a PhD on this topic, and that's how I ended up in Rotterdam, at the Rotterdam School of Management, uh, working on my PhD on intercultural communication. And, uh, then I moved to Sydney.
[00:07:40] Pia: And so, um, and I dunno how recent that was, but you released this great piece of research about people speaking up in meetings. And, um, and it really resonated with Dan and I who facilit facilitate a lot around teams, um, and use Squadify. And we spend all our working lives encouraging people to speak up. So I think it was such a, such a relevant topic. So tell us what drew you to this research, and then also what, what you found.
[00:08:13] Betina: It's a great question in terms of, it's one of those very obvious things about, you know, speaking up and then there is also this very obvious questions why people don't speak up. So I'll be very honest. This particular research project really came out of frustration and not being able to understand why people complain in the corridors, send text messages during meetings telling how ridiculous decisions are to one another in a meeting instead of simply speaking up when asked about their opinions about a given decision.
[00:08:49] So it really, you know, the whole idea came out out of frustration, and the fact that if I kind of was, you know, laughing about it, that if someone after another meeting is going to, you know, tell me and complain behind the closed doors about what they don't like, but yet remain silent, I might become quite unpleasant with them. So, as a way to release that frustration, I decided to do a project to understand, because I just simply couldn't understand where they were coming from.
[00:09:18] Dan: Was that your Dutchness coming out, had you, or?
[00:09:22] Betina: I think it was, you know, Dutchness, the Dutches, the Dutchness and the Polish, you know, kind of questioning always that I had to earlier on, I don’t know. But I feel I'll be honest, this particular project resonated with such a wide range of people that we, you know, together with Mats Alvesson, my co-author are surprised ourselves because it really resonated quite universally across the world. We've got quite a few people reaching out to us. And it resonated equally well with the leaders, as it did with the followers, which was the kind of interesting bit.
[00:09:56] Pia: I think you're so accurate. People are text messaging each other in meetings, particularly on virtualized meetings, so they're not saying things directly. And I've heard instances where there are subsets of WhatsApp groups in teams, and not everyone's included. So there, there is a different dialogue going through certain specific members and that's, uh, it can't be healthy,
[00:10:22] Betina: No, it certainly isn't, Pia.
[00:10:24] Dan: So Bettina, what did you find in this research fueled by your, your, your, maybe some frustration, but what did you, what did you discover?
[00:10:33] Betina: I think the important bit about the. Process of research in this particular case was that I wasn't taking at the face value the predominant responses that we know of. So if you look at the literature, traditionally, it says that people don't speak up because they are afraid. So there is this fear element, or they don't speak up because they don't believe they, you know, words, their participation will make any difference, so there is this element of futility.
[00:11:01] Now I observe different meetings, and I assume that's not the case. There is nothing really to fear, and if you never exercise your voice, you don't know if it would or wouldn't make difference. So in some way, uh, the, the big part of the process was that, that, by the way, is an interesting finding in itself from a research perspective, is that rather than rely on the initial response, which very much was along the lines of, I don't speak up because I'm afraid of the consequences, or I don't speak up because, uh, uh, I don't think it's gonna make any difference, uh, I would follow up with, have you tried or what consequences could possibly happen to you?
[00:11:42] And that's where people started to dig deeper into the reasons why they really don't speak up. So we went, you know, outside of the superficial, very easy excuse, uh, it, it's dangerous in this place. I can't speak up or the words, you know, nothing's gonna make a difference.
[00:11:57] Dan: That's fascinating. As you say in itself, you get beyond that sort of skin of an answer. Where did the, where did the conversations tend to go when you really knocked on that, those fear and futility, um, responses?
[00:12:09] Betina: So we had a numbers of different types of responses, which we document in the paper. Some of them were along the lines that I can't be bothered, I can't be, you know, I don't wanna miss my time. And you know, at the end of the day, uh, what I'm gonna complain about it a lot, I couldn't care less. So, so there is definitely that element.
[00:12:29] Another one was a little bit, well, unless there is nothing in it for me. I'm not invested in the organization, so I don't care. So if I can see, you know, personal interest that comes out of me speaking up, I will. But if I don't, why would I care?
[00:12:46] The next interesting notion was, which really surprised us, was, oh, well I'm not a leader. You know, that speaking is kind of reserved for, for the leaders and, and the confident. And we realized, no, we are talking about daily activities, the functioning of the organization. You don't have to be a leader to speak up. So there was kind of people almost in the context of remaining silent for such a long time, they, they simply lost confidence, or never built confidence to, to participate and contribute in a meeting. And the longer you kind of stay in that circle of, you know, spiral downward, downward spiral of silence, the less confident you feel to speak, you know, next time.
[00:13:29] And finally, the last bit that came out is that people just relied on others, and there was this, what we labeled as outsourcing. Yeah. I couldn't be bothered. This person always speaks up, so why don't they speak up because they are better at it anyway? Or you know, I'll just tell them to speak up next time and share my frustration.
[00:13:48] So again, there were a number of reasons why actually very few of our interview, we stayed on that level of confirming that it's really fear and futility. They suddenly discovered, nah, it's actually other reasons.
[00:14:00] Pia: I think that's so interesting. I think there is a big part of self preservation here. You know, will I look okay? And I think that, so that's a part I think people bring to those meetings. I think also we're not really sure what the conversation that we're having is about. What's the quality of that conversation? Because I dunno whether you found this in your research, but there's a lot of information giving. It's boring as. So most people don't, they tune out, and they're think and they are texting somebody else because they're thinking of something else that's more meaningful.
[00:14:36] And I don't know whether we've been doing that, that the, the quality of our meetings has, has been degrading or we haven't paid attention to it, or it's something post covid and we all went hybrid. I don't, I don't know. But I think it's important that we really qualify what our meeting is about and have more time to have better quality conversations. Is that something that you also fan?
[00:15:01] Betina: Absolutely, Pia. I think I'm gonna start with the fact that first of all, the looking good element, the, I'm not a leader, so I shouldn't be speaking up is there, but at the same times, those who did it well would say, if anything, speaking up in a constructive way, advanced my career significantly because I became visible. I wasn't one of, you know, many silent people sitting and, and kind of being seen as doing nothing. So again, in, in some cases speaking up in a meeting can significantly advance your visibility and career prospects.
[00:15:34] Now, regarding the meeting structures, that's where we could write a whole book about. Because the truth is indeed, and, and, you know, I'm not sure about other places in the world at the moment, but in my, you know, work context here in Australia, I get 400 pages of, you know, material to read before the meeting. Now if I, uh, if I'm honest, and I hope you know, my bosses don't hear me well, I do not have time to read 400 pages before the meeting. Probably I have never read the 400 pages before any of the meetings. So
[00:16:10] Dan: Let's be clear.
[00:16:10] Betina: So most of us come to meetings unprepared, and we come to meetings unprepared. Not because we don't care, but because the structure imposed on the meeting from the very beginning where we get the, the package, the material, reading, makes us in some way being unprepared because there is no way we can go through 400 pages.
[00:16:30] And, you know, this is linked, I guess, extensively to, to, to the massive amount of compliance that has, you know, either self-imposed by the organization or imposed by, you know, external bodies that everything has to be minuted, everything has to have, you know, massive documentation behind. So, so we don't have really time to, to focus on things that really matter between all the administrative load associated with every single meeting.
[00:16:57] Dan: Some of those points you mentioned as you got deeper there, they, they, they strike me as being the, the thing that my brain sort of linked them to those, those statistics on engagement, um, around the percentage of people who are, actually actively engaged, sort of neutrally engaged and actively disengaged. And those, those, I think they come out once a year and it's a massive, it's a slightly depressing bit of reading. But a lot of what you're saying seems to be rather about that, that sort of idea of engagement, which obviously is a little bit of jargon really, but in a way, what you're say, what you say brings it to life, which is what is it like to be passive or actively disengaged? You, you, you just don't bother. You know, I, I think, or I don't care, or it's not my job, basically the sort of things that I'm hearing. And it, it, it really brings those, those engagement elements to life that can look a little bit theoretical sometimes I think.
[00:17:52] Betina: Yes, absolutely. I mean, most, uh, most people in those meetings are heavily disengaged and we all know, especially when it comes to virtual meetings, 80% of participants are not really in the meeting. They physically, their faces are, but they are responding to emails and doing everything else. So we kind of. It, it, it's, it's interesting in the sense that we keep on doing those kind of rituals meetings where there is a lot of information passing while we deep down know, so it's kind of to tick the box. But as leaders, deep down inside, quite often we probably do know that people are disengaged and doing 20 other things while they pretend to listen.
[00:18:35] Dan: and while these are things that we, we can always look at the people who are disengaged and say, well be dis be engaged, um, we would normally put the ownership for engagement out at the feet of the leader of that meeting, wouldn't we? I mean, that's where, what, what can the leaders do to, to step up and create an environment where people don't feel these things and they do contribute?
[00:18:58] Betina: Absolutely. I think from, from our research, what emerged is that both leaders and you know, participants have opportunity, responsibility, however you want to call it, to make those meetings meaningful. Because at the end of the day, I would believe that both sides want a meaningful meeting, otherwise, what's the point of holding one?
[00:19:17] So I think, you know, from the leader's point of view, we really have to start with rethinking meeting structures. How is the meeting look? Is it really a one way transfer of information or are we having some structured ways of discussion? And when I say structured ways, you can't have a meaningful discussion in a room of 20 people. You can, if you put them maybe in small groups and let the small group discuss specific topics and present, you know, quickly specific answers.
[00:19:44] So again, those meeting structures that, for example, you know, everyone who comes knows we are going to discuss the following three issues and we are going to make a decision on those three issues, and we want to have your input so everyone comes prepared and everyone, every individual has a position on those three issues. That already narrows down the level of preparation before the meeting and makes people accountable that when I come to the meeting, I better know what we are going to discuss.
[00:20:13] And if you do those small group discussions before you present and open up the plenary, everyone in the small discussion can then present their view or should present their view so that a diversity of views can be brought to the surveys.
[00:20:27] Just literally last week, a participant, uh, in another training I, I ran, said that the problem with large meetings is that sometimes the vocal voices are actually the voices of the minority. So when they ran a little anonymous, uh, survey about certain issue, it turned out that over 80% of people were actually against the proposed, solution, which the vocal minority was presenting us, you know, strongly supported.
[00:21:00] So, so you really are missing out on understanding what your organization is after, what the people in your organizations are after. If you don't enable structures where everyone comes prepared and everyone represents their view and is expected to speak up, even if, as I'm saying in small work group context.
[00:21:18] Pia: Oh, sorry. Yeah, no, I'll jump in. I was gonna say, my experience too is, is that some meetings are dominated by a couple of more extrovert characters who don't like the sound of silence. You know, you ask a question and, uh, you know, if you're a really good facilitator, you hang in there for your six seconds so that everyone gets a, someone will eventually answer, but they, they tend to jump in a bit sooner rather than later. And then other people then go to the leader after the meeting to complain about the people that have been talking, but they didn't talk. So I, I, I've witnessed that as well, which takes quite a strong leadership to go, well, we need to hear, hear from you.
[00:22:02] If you wait too long, that silence gets filled sometimes with people who are less patient or feel more uncomfortable with that, that, and they want to, they feel that the person asking the question is in pain because, you know, it's taking a long time to answer.
[00:22:16] Betina: Pia, I think that that speaks very much to the kind of small group dynamics, which I said if you come to the meeting and everyone starts discussing in small breakout rooms or breakout groups, then you avoid that over dominance of a certain voice. So I think that's number one.
[00:22:31] I think second of all, there is this view that we also advance in this research of, of a kind of looking at, at the, at your own meetings and see the structure and the dynamics, and possibly reflect upon it out loud. Because you know, when you think about those extroverts speaking up, it's again one of those situations where possibly behind the closed door, everyone complains about them, but they being extroverts are unaware of that dynamics. Because nobody really wants to take over the whole meeting.
[00:23:00] So there is this opportunity that if we openly, actively speak up in the meeting saying, look, we have noticed that in our meetings it might be two, three voices that that take more space than others, and really we would like to hear from everyone, if you do it gently, the two, three voices will know, oh, that might be me. And they will, they're likely to serve regulate, at least in short term. You might have to do their, do a reminder. But again, that's the leader's role to call out on that dynamics because nobody wants to be the only voice in the meeting the moment they are being made aware that that's, you know, counterproductive to what the organization is doing.
[00:23:41] Dan: It's, It's, a great tip, and I think that's something that we've seen a lot is that that act of reflection is, is not, not often done in teams. It's, it's built into agile processes, of course, but even there that can turn into a retro on tasks, which is important, but not a retro about how are we working as a team? And if you really follow agile principles directly, it's actually about how do we accelerate? Which is about how are we working together. But you can almost feel sometimes when you get people to reflect that they, they shy away from that sort of talking about the teamwork. But it's probably, I think Pia, I dunno if you'd agree with this, it's probably the most powerful thing that teams can do that they don't do. It's the biggest gap in terms of team practices, I think. So I think that's a great tip. Betina.
[00:24:30] Pia: Yeah, I, I think that the conversation, you get dominated by the task, as you said, and becomes a, almost like a show of, of functional strength. But it becomes a very different type of conversation when you say, how are we doing? Not what are we doing? And, and actually given the pressures that are out there in the, in the business world, in the corporate world, in society today, and where people are under those pressures, it actually can release a completely different type of conversation. And, and but it takes a degree of courage from the leader to facilitate that. And I think sometimes we, we might have, we might have lost the art of facilitating a good conversation because we work in soundbites. And I feel, I feel about 105 years old saying that, but.
[00:25:20] Dan: Still time for a PhD, Pia.
[00:25:22] Pia: Yeah, still squeeze it in. But you know what I mean? It's like, I mean, if you, gosh, have you ever read any of the sort of the Jane Aire, Charlotte Bronte, and you looked at how they discourse, how they spent a lot of time talking, we boiled that down and, but, but in it, we've lost a means of communication. I'm not saying we have to talk like that, but I think that point is well made, Dan.
[00:25:43] Dan: Um, so Bettina, we've talked, uh, quite a bit about that sort of leader responsibility, which is important. What can the, uh, participants in teams do?
[00:25:53] Betina: Uh, I think, first of all, understand that we are the organization. The amount of time I hear responses such as a, they, the leadership, the management, the, you know, whatever you call that godlike body, somewhere up there that makes decision, every member of the organization makes the organization. So taking responsibility for how your organization looks and assuming that you can be an active actor in creating the work environment in which you are, and that you are not alone because everyone else next to you wants the same. They also want the good place to work in. So I think there is this kind of first step, rather than disassociating yourself, associate yourself and see yourself as powerful rather than powerless.
[00:26:38] I think that also means that leaders help people in the organizations set up and propose meetings they would like to discuss. So basically tell, you know, next meeting I want, you know, this theme, this sub of theme, you bring to the table the topic that you think we should cover because it's inhibiting how we work or it is negative impact on our organization or whatever that is. And if you create a group responsible for leading a given topic, you remove that individual fear, if there is any, and you enable them, empower them to actually take ownership for some of that change. So, you know, collective voice is of course much stronger. So, so having, you know, allies and making sure that you are not, you know, on your own, I think it's really the, the important, uh, step.
[00:27:28] The other bit which I think is really important is stop outsourcing. Stop relying only on those few others, people who who should be speaking on your behalf. Because again, they pay a heavy price of feeling that responsibility and the burden, and they then become the outliers while in fact they are most likely representing your interests. So I think it's really important, but rather than outsourcing something to another person, you join them and support them and you form a, a coalition that you can be one voice supporting the cause that is important to you.
[00:28:04] The other thing which I think is important and people underestimate, and we found it in our research a lot, oh, that I can't be bothered it's taking too much time, but if you think about our organizations, a lot of those things that, that make organizations dysfunctional are those tiny bit of administration here and there, and there and there, and they seem tiny, but altogether they become a massive burden and everyone is just overwhelmed.
[00:28:29] So stepping in, even in those small moments before something ridiculous, ridiculous is introduced, can mean long gains in the long term. So thinking long term rather than I'm rushing to my lunch now is another thing which will probably help to see why it's important for you to take active role and speak up in, you know, in the moments when your own organization and your work, uh, dynamics might be affected.
[00:28:57] So I think my, my final advice for, for, you know, all the meeting participants is be courageous and believe that their voice can make a difference.
[00:29:07] Pia: I think that's such a, such an important, and listening to you then, and, and hearing that courage, I kind of was struck by, I, I wonder how many people are taken back to their own family dynamics of how they spoke up in those early stages. You know, very amateur psychology hour here. But I do think that those early experiences did teach you whether your point could be validated or shut down or laughed at. I certainly, I have very fond memories of my family's discussions, but I listened a lot. I listened to how people contributed or how they didn't, and tried different ways and failed lots, you know? But anyway, that, I just wonder whether there's anything there.
[00:29:55] Betina: There is, Pia, there is a lot in there. Because if you think about your organization, like a small, you know, family unit, the newcomers, they learn what the norm is. So when they enter and they see that everyone is silent, they assume that the way things work in here is the silent way. And I should not speak up. So basically silence produces silence. That's why, you know, the paper was about doing silence. We, by remaining silence we contribute to, to those dysfunctional organizations where nobody speaks up and nobody dares to speak up because they create those narratives of fear, of futility. Well, the truth is nobody even tries. So therefore they can't really test any of those assumptions.
[00:30:43] So I think, again, I think your point is absolutely critical that we need to mentor newcomers those new members, organization and show them this is a place where we do contribute, where we are active members of this unit, and we work together, and your voice matters and your voice is important to us. And that's where leaders have a huge responsibility that if someone daress to speak up, that they don't just quickly shut or dismiss them, but they recognize that yes, it might have taken courage for someone to speak up, but because they did, we will have better decision making, we will have better functioning, functioning organizations.
[00:31:23] Dan: Uh, Bettina, it's it, this is our last episode of the, of our, of our season. I think this is just such a great way to end, that sort of rally and cry to, to speak up so that that beautiful diversity in teams can be, can, can really flourish. I think it's, it's a, it's a and your, your, your impassioned plea to get people to speak up and to help others to speak up is a, is a wonderful place to end.
[00:31:48] Um, there's a lot there. We always ask the baby steps question if someone's listening and they think, you know what? Yes, either I'm not speaking up, I'm not sure everyone in my team is speaking up. What's a, what's your recommended little place that they can make a small difference rather than trying to swallow too much at the same time?
[00:32:04] Betina: I think when it comes to participants, one of the things which I really recommend to quite a few people who feel they lack confidence is kind of setting themselves a goal. In this meeting I'm going to speak up once, just once, and take a note. Because quite often the stress takes over and they feel like, oh, I dunno what I want to say. So, so take a note of what you want to say, find that space and make that one contribution, just one. And sometimes you will be taken aback by how powerful one mindful contribution can be and how much positive reinforcement you will get, which will, they'll then empower you to, of course, do it again and again.
[00:32:43] Dan: And the teams get into habits, don't they? So, so I'm sure, so just breaking that in a small way is, is just Absolutely. And the same old patterns emerge and we, we all, we all, we'll do, it's sort of comfortable in a way. So a small way to disrupt that much as you did Bettina on the, um, on Truance Day, um, way, way back, back in the day.
[00:33:02] Um, so Bettina, I, um, I'm, I bet you have an interesting answer to this fi our final question, we always ask for a sort of media recommendation, a book, podcast series. What's inspired or interested you recently?
[00:33:14] Betina: Um, I think I recommend a book that is quite relevant to what we discuss at the moment, which is a book of, of my wonderful co-author on this piece of research, Mats Alvesson. And it's the, the book, the Stupidity Paradox. And it basically talks about the functional stupidity in organizations that we reproduce. And I'm sure all of us can relate that there are some system processes that we all deem to be stupid, and yet we play in and are a part of that stupidity. This is a great book to kind of, uh, reflect upon your own organization and, and your own, uh, buying into the stupidity and reinforcing it, and maybe making, again, small baby steps in, in changing some of those, uh, quite paradoxical, uh, counterproductive things we observe in every single organization.
[00:34:06] Pia: And I wholeheartedly agree. I think we all do worry that, you know, we'll look stupid. And again, there's been plenty of, sort of early experiences in families and schools that have taught us that and sort of socialized us. So good, uh, good as adults to make better conscious choices, and, uh, and have grown up conversations.
[00:34:25] Dan: Here's hoping here, here's to that. Uh, Bettina, thank you so much for being on Win Not Me today. It's been, uh, wonderful to unpick this research and it's, it's really important. So, um, but you've, you've painted a, a really good picture for us, so thank you so much.
[00:34:40] Betina: Thank you both for having me. It was an absolute pleasure and, and I hope it, uh, will help of, to change our organizations for, for better.
[00:34:49] Pia: One conversation at a time.
[00:34:54] Dan: I, I don't wanna end our season at a low, Pia, but, um. In a way, well, my, my, where this took me was that yes, the, the research is so interesting to get below the surface of that fear and futility. You know, I'm, I'm worried about those normal answers. There's no point, or, um, I'm scared of the results to actually discover people are saying it's not my job, I don't really care, or, um, I've, I don't have the confidence to speak up or wait for the leaders to do it.
[00:35:22] I think that there's a sort of why against each other. The why don't people feel like that? And of course that's quite, that reflects very poorly, I think, on our organizations, uh, potentially at the moment that people don't, aren't engaged sufficiently to speak up. I think, you know, if these people, if, if. Uh, these are us as well. You know, they're at, if they're at a, a, a meeting at the school and their child's being bullied and no one's doing anything about it, they would speak up because they really care. But there's something missing here, I think, in that engagement that we, we talked about in the, in the conversation.
[00:35:57] Pia: So if it, if your daughters and sons were sitting in a team and they, they didn't feel okay to speak up, whose responsibility is it? Is it theirs or is it the, is it the leader?
[00:36:12] Dan: And is it the organization? I think it's, it's all of those things. I think it's, I, I, they definitely have a responsibility to speak up. Um, but equally, the, the, there needs to be an environment where that is practically possible for a start. Because actually when people are talking all the time, it's genuinely difficult sometimes getting their word in. And also well received. If they've done that a couple of times and they have been ignored or you know, that's the thing. It's not as if people say, oh, shut up. That's a stupid idea. That tends to not happen, but it's the sort of, if you get ignored a couple of times, you're just gonna think what is the point? I think it doesn't take much for you to have that taken off. But I think it's a shared responsibility actually. I think we all have to take a load.
[00:36:54] Pia: I think, I think, I think you're right. I mean, it's rarely that it becomes such a ooh, an exciting conversation that you either just want to stand back and watch. That, I mean, normally it's a bit meh, and it's about a four or a five out of 10 .That that's kind of like, yeah. And your mind has gone somewhere else and Elvis left the room years ago.
[00:37:12] And on top of that, and I mentioned this, I think we, we've gotta think about the quality of the conversation we're having, what is the point and what are we talking about? And somehow we've got this fixation on a meeting. And we think that just by bringing people together, that's it. We don't think anymore beyond that.
[00:37:32] Dan: How did we get to this?
[00:37:34] Pia: Well, it's sort of doing. It's just, it's sort of slight Stepford Wives. We're not, we're not really thinking about it, we're just robotically moving from one to the other. And I, you know, I often do an exercise where I go, so if we added up your salaries for this hour, you know, took your annual salary and then, and then worked out what your hourly rate was, and then we added all that together. This is probably gonna cost thousands. So what exactly do you want to do with this time that's useful and feels valuable and you are feeling in engaged?
[00:38:04] And I think that's a great point that Betina said. This is a place where we all can contribute. Your voice matters.
[00:38:13] Dan: And, and that doesn't ha by the way, ha doesn't have to be in a meeting, as you say. A small point in favor of meetings. They can be awesome. That's when we get together and we can, if we've done right, it's amazing they've got a bad name for themselves because we don't organize them. But also at the heart of this for me is where did we come up with this idea that eight or 10 people sitting around a table, randomly talking, is going to be a good way to share information or make decisions?
[00:38:41] And it's reminding me of Bastian Overgaard who was on in the, in this season. And not just about the, um, essence of silence he was talking about, but what really landed every, it stayed with me ever since, is that a conversation is multitasking. You know, you are listening, processing, planning, what to say, you know, and it's, it's, it's too much, too much.
[00:39:04] And I was actually at the weekend, um, visiting some friends and our friend had a really serious stroke actually, um, four years ago, nearly. And, um, he was saying he's always been a, you know, a, an introverted, think he's very bright, uh, guy. But he says that, you know, when we have the conversation around the dinner table, he, he can hardly interven because the thing is going all over the place. But I think he's not alone in that actually, that the sort of the plastic bag of the conversation is wafting around the windy alley and it's just not an effective way.
[00:39:36] And I think we have to make this shift that meetings need to be structured properly as, as Bettina said, and we'll have a clear goal structured, but have these media through which we can contribute. You know, whether that's post-it notes, or um, whatever, whatever it is, something different than just sitting there talking, which is when you think about it, obviously ridiculous.
[00:39:59] Pia: And I think it takes, it does take some facilitation skills from the person leading it. And I don't think that is an onerous responsibility, but it's a, it's a reading the room, ensuring you've got contribution, asking questions, making the meeting feel safe, and everybody knowing that they're there in use of achieving the outcome and, and that that is a useful outcome for the level of leadership or responsibility or contribution that they bring. So they feel that it's a net, a net positive experience,
[00:40:38] not a drain.
[00:40:39] Dan: Yes. I mean, in, I, I think I'm right in saying this. In my entire career, I've only known one team leader who uses facilitation techniques. Now, uh, that might be an exaggeration, but, uh, takes post-it note, you know, in their physical meetings he'd take post-it notes, he'd get people to use them, and he'd share them, do, do all this stuff. And he said, yeah, I learned it in a previous job. But I, that's such a rare thing. But I think as a vision for team leaders, if you can just pick up some basic tools like that. it's going to make a huge difference. You know, rather than just relying on these, these sort of plastic bag wafting conversations. So, um, yeah, it's an impressive thing.
[00:41:18] So, and a lovely way to end. But for me, there, there's been a big, a lot of thinking this season about, um, about the quality of the conversations and whether, and how we can organize 'em a little bit better so that everyone can be heard and you get better outcomes.
[00:41:31] But that is it for this episode and this season. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:41:52] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.