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Every Friday, join us as we dive into the latest in real estate multifamily with David Moghavem, Head of East Coast Acquisitions at Trion Properties. David invites top experts who know the ins, outs, and trends shaping the real estate multifamily market across the nation!
Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just curious about where the next big opportunity might be, Deal Flow Friday brings you the weekly inside scoop on what’s hot, what’s not, and what to watch for in today’s ever-evolving real estate scene.
[00:00.0 - 00:02.7] Our generation is soft. Why is everyone wanting to work from home?
[00:02.7 - 00:06.4] I have no interest in calling you while you're sitting in your bedroom and brickle.
[00:06.4 - 00:10.2] You just make yourself so much more replaceable by like putting yourself in those shoes.
[00:10.2 - 00:12.5] I say the more uncomfortable you are, the better.
[00:12.5 - 00:15.9] Like, you know what sucks? You wake up at 6.30 and trying to put up two plates.
[00:15.9 - 00:19.9] Like, you know what's easy? Sitting at a desk sending emails when you're in your office and got your free coffee.
[00:19.9 - 00:23.3] These remote jobs, they're gonna go from back office to no office.
[00:23.3 - 00:30.3] Why would we pay $100,000 a year when we can just go to Latin America and spend $2,800 a month?
[00:30.3 - 00:39.3] I'm not sure if that generation is ever gonna fully recover just because so many of them are so resistant from getting into the office and they're losing so much opportunity.
[00:39.3 - 00:44.3] Some of the best ideas come from just bantering in the office and spitballing ideas.
[00:44.3 - 00:49.7] You want your high-level strong positions to be in the office. It's spontaneous collaboration.
[00:49.7 - 00:57.7] This whole like hybrid remote thing that we're discussing, working in your PJs, this is just a modern way of saying lifestyle versus career growth.
[00:57.7 - 01:20.7] All right. Welcome to another episode of DealFlow Friday.
[01:21.7 - 01:27.7] And today we got Mark Silverman, Bryce Goldson, co-founders of Advanced CRE.
[01:27.7 - 01:31.7] We also got big best friend of the pod, Max Sharkansky.
[01:31.7 - 01:32.7] Thank you for having me. Great to be here.
[01:32.7 - 01:34.7] Of course. Always a pleasure having you.
[01:34.7 - 01:42.7] And we got a sick studio that we're at. This is amazing. Shout out to Content HQ for that in Miami.
[01:42.7 - 01:46.7] Mark, Bryce, really good having you. Let me give a quick intro on Advanced CRE.
[01:46.7 - 01:57.7] They've been huge for Tryon. Advanced CRE, they're a premier executive search firm dedicated to the real estate industry, renowned for placing high-level executives in critical roles.
[01:57.7 - 02:03.7] Who have they placed for us now? Felipe, Adri, Natalina.
[02:03.7 - 02:07.7] I mean, that's a very talented list on our team.
[02:07.7 - 02:08.7] Johnny.
[02:08.7 - 02:11.7] Yeah. Wow. I mean, it's amazing.
[02:11.7 - 02:12.7] The whole executive team.
[02:13.7 - 02:16.7] Yeah. Tryon's come a long way from finding me like on the street.
[02:16.7 - 02:19.7] Yeah. On the back alleys of Hollywood.
[02:19.7 - 02:24.7] Exactly. To now using you guys to beef up our staff.
[02:24.7 - 02:27.7] You guys find our human capital, but that would be a great idea.
[02:27.7 - 02:37.7] Yeah. And you guys are great. And I think the inspiration for this too was you guys were bantering on text a little bit and saying, our generation is soft. Why is everyone wanting to work from home?
[02:37.7 - 02:40.7] And so I think we got to talk a little bit about that.
[02:40.7 - 02:41.7] That's a good segue.
[02:41.7 - 02:43.7] Get a little passionate about us.
[02:43.7 - 02:51.7] Before we dive into it, I want to give the audience a chance to hear about how you guys started this, how you get into it, and what you guys are all about.
[02:51.7 - 02:54.7] Absolutely. Thanks for having us. I appreciate that.
[02:54.7 - 02:55.7] Thanks for having us.
[02:55.7 - 02:59.7] I feel like I'm the first of us to touch recruitment. I kind of fell into it.
[02:59.7 - 03:04.7] I got cold called by a recruiter and they kind of said, hey, do you want to hear more about it?
[03:04.7 - 03:12.7] I was talking with Bryce during that time I was working for an aerospace company and I was like, I want to get into sales, something I can scale and leverage.
[03:12.7 - 03:14.7] The more you put in, the more you get out.
[03:14.7 - 03:18.7] So I took a chance, worked for a company, and I learned a lot about how to recruit.
[03:18.7 - 03:21.7] But I also said I learned a lot about how not to recruit.
[03:21.7 - 03:26.7] I think some of the bigger agencies, for our team, it's really high touch.
[03:26.7 - 03:31.7] We know, obviously, you guys very well, but every single client we work with, we try to get to know them very well.
[03:31.7 - 03:36.7] So I started my own recruitment shop right before the pandemic, actually.
[03:36.7 - 03:37.7] And then the pandemic came along.
[03:37.7 - 03:39.7] That must have been crazy.
[03:39.7 - 03:41.7] Wiped me out.
[03:41.7 - 03:45.7] But the good thing was, and I know we do bag on work from home a little bit too much.
[03:45.7 - 03:51.7] Without a little bit of work from home, it would have never happened because I got to work with Bryce from home while I was doing my recruiting thing.
[03:51.7 - 03:53.7] And he was doing something very different.
[03:53.7 - 04:03.7] Yeah, so I was actually just doing classic real estate investment banking, was just thinking I was going to recruit into either asset management investments on the real estate side.
[04:03.7 - 04:11.7] But COVID broke out, started working from home, and started watching Mark do some recruiting and thought, hey, this looks pretty fun.
[04:11.7 - 04:13.7] It's also a pretty good business model.
[04:13.7 - 04:19.7] And just human capital in general as an idea is just, in my opinion, something that drives so much value.
[04:19.7 - 04:32.7] And at the same time, I was starting to look at recruiting in real estate and work with some recruiters and starting to feel like, I wasn't like, they didn't necessarily understand the ins and outs of the industry always.
[04:32.7 - 04:45.7] There was a little bit of a gap there and just felt like if I could bring my industry expertise, even though it was only a couple of years, but just from working in the industry to recruiting,
[04:45.7 - 04:54.7] combine that with the background and recruiting that Mark had kind of taught me that we could really create something with a lot of value for the real estate industry.
[04:54.7 - 04:57.7] So we hopped in in 2021 and founded the company.
[04:57.7 - 04:59.7] And we're actually 2020, damn time flies.
[04:59.7 - 05:01.7] But that was like a wash.
[05:01.7 - 05:03.7] That was our mulligan year was 2020.
[05:03.7 - 05:04.7] Mulligan year.
[05:04.7 - 05:05.7] We don't count that.
[05:05.7 - 05:06.7] What company were you working at?
[05:06.7 - 05:07.7] Where were you doing?
[05:07.7 - 05:08.7] I didn't know you were.
[05:08.7 - 05:11.7] Yeah, so I was at Houlihan in LA doing real estate investment banking.
[05:11.7 - 05:14.7] And so, yeah, had COVID, never happened.
[05:15.8 - 05:16.8] Advanced CRE.
[05:16.8 - 05:17.8] Would never happen.
[05:17.8 - 05:18.8] Would never happen.
[05:18.8 - 05:19.8] And you're in L.A.
[05:19.8 - 05:21.1] Yeah, we were in L.A.
[05:21.1 - 05:25.5] You know, obviously we stayed in L.A. for, I'd say, three or four years after that and
[05:25.5 - 05:29.6] really got the groundwork and the foundation of, you know, we had an original team.
[05:29.6 - 05:32.6] We had a lot of people actually come through and, you know, some have gone off to start
[05:32.6 - 05:34.2] their own recruiting firms on their own.
[05:34.2 - 05:38.5] So yeah, we probably have had like 15 or so employees come through our firm, you know,
[05:38.5 - 05:39.5] but the people in L.A.
[05:39.5 - 05:44.0] We actually, you know, recently relocated, as you know, to the East Coast, but, you know,
[05:44.0 - 05:49.3] we really laid the foundation in Los Angeles and then took the band on the road.
[05:49.3 - 05:50.3] What made the move?
[05:50.3 - 05:51.3] What sparked the move?
[05:51.3 - 05:52.3] I mean, East Coast hours.
[05:52.3 - 05:54.0] You know, I'll boil it down to that.
[05:54.0 - 05:55.4] I'm going to miss that.
[05:55.4 - 05:59.1] Yeah, East Coast hours, I think, are so important for the work we do since, you know, our biggest
[05:59.1 - 06:00.8] market is obviously here in Miami.
[06:00.8 - 06:04.9] It's been surprising how much, when we really look back, how much we've done here in Miami.
[06:04.9 - 06:05.9] Also Atlanta.
[06:05.9 - 06:09.5] D.C. has been huge for us and, of course, New York.
[06:09.5 - 06:10.5] Didn't Texas.
[06:10.5 - 06:13.4] So, you know, being, even though there's central time, you know, being three hours ahead of
[06:13.8 - 06:17.1] where we were on the West Coast has just taken us to another gear.
[06:17.1 - 06:20.9] And when you're listing these cities, is this cities where you're finding good talent or
[06:20.9 - 06:23.2] that you're talking to a lot of owners, operators?
[06:23.2 - 06:24.2] It's chicken and egg, right?
[06:24.2 - 06:28.6] Like you find good, good professionals and you find good, you know, shops.
[06:28.6 - 06:29.6] Yeah.
[06:29.6 - 06:30.6] Right.
[06:30.6 - 06:31.6] Like so, which comes first?
[06:31.6 - 06:34.5] Sometimes, honestly, you find a really good professional and you can, you know, take that
[06:34.5 - 06:37.5] professional to a group and say, hey, I know someone really strong.
[06:37.5 - 06:41.8] We call it specking someone out or you find a really good client that, you know, has a
[06:41.8 - 06:42.8] lot of needs.
[06:42.9 - 06:46.0] Of course, you know, the job we do is finding them the people.
[06:46.0 - 06:50.0] So it can work both ways, really.
[06:50.0 - 06:53.2] Are you still seeing a lot of people move to for work?
[06:53.2 - 06:55.2] So do you like a relocation?
[06:55.2 - 06:56.2] Yeah.
[06:56.2 - 06:57.2] Yeah.
[06:57.2 - 06:58.2] Actually, like, you know, Bryce.
[06:58.2 - 06:59.9] I think Bryce has, you know, a really good eye on the relocation.
[06:59.9 - 07:00.9] Yeah.
[07:00.9 - 07:06.6] I would say the real market, I think, is like COVID definitely was an accelerator for it.
[07:06.6 - 07:10.9] And I'd say in a sense, I think it has slowed down a little bit is kind of like, you know,
[07:10.9 - 07:13.7] the COVID era has kind of cooled off a little bit.
[07:13.7 - 07:17.2] And just like where we're at in the market right now, I don't think we're seeing as much
[07:17.2 - 07:22.5] relocation demand as we were, you know, right at the start of COVID early on.
[07:22.5 - 07:25.8] But I do kind of think is like, you know, we are going through like a cycle change.
[07:25.8 - 07:27.8] There's a lot of new opportunities popping up.
[07:27.8 - 07:31.6] People are definitely like maybe feeling a little stagnant, feeling like a little more
[07:31.6 - 07:32.6] open.
[07:32.6 - 07:36.5] I think this year in 26, we've started to like definitely hear people say, you know what?
[07:36.5 - 07:40.8] Like, I'm not feeling the growth in New York or I'm not feeling the growth in San Francisco.
[07:40.8 - 07:42.8] I'm willing to go, you know, check out a market.
[07:42.8 - 07:45.3] It's just so opportunity driven, I think, for most people.
[07:45.3 - 07:48.7] And especially like some, you know, once you got a family, kids in school, like it becomes
[07:48.7 - 07:49.9] very hard to relocate.
[07:49.9 - 07:53.5] But some of these younger guys and gals, like they can pick up and move, you know, there's
[07:53.5 - 07:54.5] different factors.
[07:54.5 - 07:57.8] You know, people like get stuck maybe in the town or the region, they went to college and
[07:57.8 - 08:01.0] then they say, you know what, I want to go back to where I'm from originally, you know,
[08:01.0 - 08:06.8] so it's like usually you see at the, I'd say like at the five year mark is like the perfect
[08:06.8 - 08:08.1] time to maybe explore that.
[08:08.3 - 08:11.3] You know, 10, 15 years, it's really rare, I'd say.
[08:11.3 - 08:17.9] I feel like COVID was just this incredible force that actually spurred so much movement
[08:17.9 - 08:23.6] that now moving is the norm, working from home or hybrid is the norm.
[08:23.6 - 08:31.1] You guys started at 2020, maybe the mulligan year 2021, but you saw how the culture changed.
[08:31.1 - 08:37.2] What are some of the big changes in hiring that you've noticed through all these years
[08:37.3 - 08:38.3] since inception?
[08:38.3 - 08:42.4] Well, I'll say when I first, when I first recruited was 2018 and it was suit and tie
[08:42.4 - 08:46.7] every day, you know, like casual was no tie.
[08:46.7 - 08:47.7] Casual Friday is no tie.
[08:47.7 - 08:48.7] Right.
[08:48.7 - 08:49.7] Yeah.
[08:49.7 - 08:50.7] Yeah.
[08:50.7 - 08:51.7] Yeah.
[08:51.7 - 08:52.7] Exactly.
[08:52.7 - 08:53.7] What Max got.
[08:53.7 - 08:54.7] That's perfect for casual Friday.
[08:54.7 - 08:55.7] And I mean, you'd skip out at work at like 630 and they'd be like, oh, Silverman, you're
[08:55.7 - 08:56.7] taking a half day.
[08:56.7 - 08:57.7] Part timer, huh?
[08:57.7 - 09:04.2] That was the culture in 2018, office every day, you know, and you get on the phone candidates
[09:04.2 - 09:05.2] the same job.
[09:05.2 - 09:08.1] I got an opportunity, you know, yada, yada.
[09:08.1 - 09:11.6] First question was always, where's the job?
[09:11.6 - 09:12.6] Where's the job?
[09:12.6 - 09:13.6] Right.
[09:13.6 - 09:14.6] I did a lot of construction at the time.
[09:14.6 - 09:15.6] What's the pay?
[09:15.6 - 09:16.6] Those are the two main drivers.
[09:16.6 - 09:17.6] Now, first question.
[09:17.6 - 09:18.6] How many days do I get from home?
[09:18.6 - 09:19.6] Wow.
[09:19.6 - 09:20.6] First question.
[09:20.6 - 09:21.8] Can I, can this be a remote role?
[09:21.8 - 09:25.7] Or you'll, you'll tell them about the job and they'll say, can this be a remote role?
[09:25.7 - 09:29.8] And I'm like, no, what do you, I can't.
[09:29.8 - 09:33.3] So in that, in that light, where's the puck going?
[09:33.4 - 09:36.9] Like, where do you see this going over the next two, three, five, 10 years?
[09:36.9 - 09:37.9] It depends on the market.
[09:37.9 - 09:40.8] And Bryce talks about the candidate versus the client-driven market a lot.
[09:40.8 - 09:41.8] Like, yeah.
[09:41.8 - 09:42.8] I mean, what are we in now?
[09:42.8 - 09:43.8] It depends on where you're in.
[09:43.8 - 09:44.8] Yeah.
[09:44.8 - 09:49.5] I'd say like where it's going now is I think it's so case by case to a certain degree.
[09:49.5 - 09:54.6] I mean, I think longterm, like just with like some sort of hybrid flexibility is a driver
[09:54.6 - 09:56.8] for some people and they need that in their life.
[09:56.8 - 09:58.1] And so that can make sense.
[09:58.1 - 10:02.4] But I think, you know, certain teams definitely do gain a competitive advantage from being
[10:02.5 - 10:07.7] in person, you know, every day, you know, sharing ideas, sharing feedback, like, and
[10:07.7 - 10:13.1] if you're gaining a competitive advantage there, then, you know, the, your other competitors
[10:13.1 - 10:15.8] are going to have to pick up on that and, you know, follow trends.
[10:15.8 - 10:20.0] So like, I think on like the investments, asset management, the highly like competitive
[10:20.0 - 10:25.0] like sides of the business, like in person is just continuing to tick back towards that
[10:25.0 - 10:27.4] five days in office, four days in office.
[10:27.4 - 10:31.2] And like, I don't really see that trend slowing down because, I mean.
[10:31.6 - 10:34.7] In my opinion, I think it's clear just from our experience
[10:34.7 - 10:36.5] with having our employees in office
[10:36.5 - 10:38.3] versus having people remote.
[10:38.3 - 10:41.5] There is just an efficiency drive that's created.
[10:41.5 - 10:43.8] So if you're picking up on efficiencies
[10:43.8 - 10:45.6] that your competitors aren't picking up on,
[10:45.6 - 10:48.1] then eventually everyone's gonna float
[10:48.1 - 10:51.5] to where they can get the most value out of their people,
[10:51.5 - 10:55.0] which in our opinion is primarily that in-office culture
[10:55.0 - 10:57.3] where you can have a relationship,
[10:57.3 - 10:59.6] you can talk to all those people around you,
[10:59.6 - 11:01.5] share ideas, and you're gonna build
[11:01.5 - 11:02.8] more efficiencies that way.
[11:02.8 - 11:05.6] So I think it's driving back towards an in-office culture,
[11:05.6 - 11:08.1] especially on the competitive sides of the business.
[11:08.1 - 11:11.1] Now certain areas, like yeah,
[11:11.1 - 11:13.7] hybrid can work really well for certain roles,
[11:13.7 - 11:16.9] remote can work really well for certain roles,
[11:16.9 - 11:19.9] and that is gonna continue to drive that.
[11:19.9 - 11:22.0] If the top talent is floating that way,
[11:22.0 - 11:24.8] then maybe you can actually build a more competitive team
[11:24.8 - 11:27.4] in certain verticals by allowing people to be remote,
[11:27.4 - 11:28.8] allowing people to be hybrid.
[11:29.3 - 11:30.9] I think it's so case-by-case
[11:30.9 - 11:34.9] on the actual work the team is doing
[11:34.9 - 11:36.7] and what they're focused on,
[11:36.7 - 11:39.0] and also just the culture of the firm
[11:39.0 - 11:40.5] and how they're structured for it.
[11:40.5 - 11:41.7] Some teams work really well
[11:41.7 - 11:43.5] at a more hybrid, remote basis,
[11:43.5 - 11:44.8] and a lot don't.
[11:44.8 - 11:46.3] So I think it is very case-by-case,
[11:46.3 - 11:48.8] but I do think the overall trend is pushing back in-office,
[11:48.8 - 11:51.2] and I think we've definitively seen that over the past.
[11:51.2 - 11:56.2] So with a team, typical real estate investment team
[11:56.4 - 11:58.7] that's vertically integrated like a try-on,
[11:59.6 - 12:00.7] where do you draw the line in general?
[12:00.7 - 12:02.0] I know we're talking broad stroke here,
[12:02.0 - 12:03.0] but where do you draw the line?
[12:03.0 - 12:05.4] Where do you look at a candidate and say,
[12:05.4 - 12:08.2] this needs to be in the office?
[12:08.2 - 12:11.0] I mean, Max, I could even ask you this question too.
[12:11.0 - 12:13.1] What's the most effective in the office
[12:13.1 - 12:16.3] versus what is something that you feel better
[12:16.3 - 12:20.3] or feel okay if it's remote or out of the office?
[12:23.0 - 12:24.9] I would agree with Bryce.
[12:24.9 - 12:27.7] You want your high-level strong positions
[12:27.7 - 12:29.4] to be in the office.
[12:29.4 - 12:32.0] I have no interest in calling you on the phone
[12:32.0 - 12:35.1] while you're sitting in your bedroom in Brickell.
[12:35.1 - 12:36.4] Just come in the office.
[12:36.4 - 12:38.1] Five-minute walk away.
[12:38.1 - 12:40.0] I can walk into your office, and we could talk,
[12:40.0 - 12:41.1] and I can look at your screen.
[12:41.1 - 12:44.8] Some of the best ideas come from just us bantering
[12:44.8 - 12:48.5] in the office and spitballing ideas,
[12:48.5 - 12:51.5] and you don't get that if you're remote.
[12:51.5 - 12:53.7] It's spontaneous collaboration, right?
[12:53.7 - 12:57.2] You don't get spontaneous collaboration on remote.
[12:58.3 - 13:02.4] You have to send somebody a Teams message or call them,
[13:02.4 - 13:04.0] and it's not the same.
[13:04.0 - 13:04.9] I have an idea.
[13:04.9 - 13:05.7] I get up.
[13:05.7 - 13:06.7] I walk in your office, and we discuss it.
[13:06.7 - 13:11.7] But then at the same time, four years plus you guys,
[13:12.3 - 13:14.1] we opened the Miami office.
[13:14.1 - 13:19.1] Now half the team is not in the same office as the other.
[13:20.0 - 13:22.1] How has that experience been?
[13:22.2 - 13:24.5] What were some of the hardships in that regard?
[13:24.5 - 13:27.4] And then what were some of the positives as well
[13:27.4 - 13:30.5] from just having two offices,
[13:30.5 - 13:32.1] being able to work together
[13:32.1 - 13:33.9] by covering different territories?
[13:33.9 - 13:35.9] Well, as you know, I spend a lot of time
[13:35.9 - 13:36.9] going back and forth, right?
[13:36.9 - 13:38.7] I'm in LA eight to 10 times a year.
[13:38.7 - 13:40.8] Last year was probably 10.
[13:40.8 - 13:42.7] This year will probably be closer to eight
[13:42.7 - 13:44.5] because last year we brought on Natalina,
[13:44.5 - 13:45.7] Johnny, Farhan left.
[13:45.7 - 13:48.0] We transitioned him out, transitioned you in.
[13:48.0 - 13:51.5] So there was a lot of change at the corporate level.
[13:51.5 - 13:54.1] So I had to just be constantly in the office.
[13:55.0 - 13:57.7] That said, I'm doing that because there's a value to that.
[13:57.7 - 13:59.2] You spend time with people.
[13:59.2 - 14:00.7] You talk through strategy.
[14:00.7 - 14:02.2] You talk through the business.
[14:02.2 - 14:03.2] Where's the puck going?
[14:03.2 - 14:04.7] How do we make things better?
[14:06.4 - 14:08.6] So that's why we're spending so much time there.
[14:08.6 - 14:11.5] And I think we've kind of figured out
[14:11.5 - 14:12.9] a way to make it efficient, right?
[14:12.9 - 14:15.9] Like our CFO, Mashad, sits in LA,
[14:15.9 - 14:17.6] and he's got his accounting team in that office,
[14:17.6 - 14:19.3] and he runs his team there.
[14:19.3 - 14:22.5] It's not like he's got like five accountants in LA
[14:22.5 - 14:26.1] and five in Miami, and the whole thing is disjointed.
[14:26.1 - 14:28.0] We do have a few that are offshore,
[14:28.0 - 14:29.6] and that's probably something we should talk about too.
[14:29.6 - 14:32.0] Like, you know, is that a,
[14:32.0 - 14:34.0] because somebody recently asked me in our company,
[14:34.0 - 14:36.0] and we can talk about that afterwards offline,
[14:36.0 - 14:37.7] like, hey, I think I want to be remote.
[14:37.7 - 14:39.2] And I started explaining to them,
[14:39.2 - 14:40.9] like, it's just not that simple.
[14:40.9 - 14:42.5] These remote jobs,
[14:42.5 - 14:44.7] they're gonna go from back office to no office
[14:44.7 - 14:47.3] because like, why would we pay,
[14:47.3 - 14:48.6] for example, using a round number,
[14:48.6 - 14:49.8] a hundred grand a year,
[14:49.8 - 14:52.3] plus bennies, plus payroll, plus this, plus that,
[14:52.3 - 14:53.5] plus, plus, plus,
[14:54.5 - 14:59.1] when we can just go to Latin America
[14:59.1 - 15:02.9] and spend $2,800 a month all in.
[15:02.9 - 15:04.8] So that's what you're competing with when you're remote.
[15:04.8 - 15:05.8] Just understand that.
[15:05.8 - 15:07.5] Like, that is your competition.
[15:07.5 - 15:09.6] Yeah, I feel that.
[15:09.6 - 15:10.9] Yeah, but they're not filling those jobs.
[15:10.9 - 15:11.7] Like, I mean, some of those jobs-
[15:11.7 - 15:12.5] No, I know, but they're competing against, right?
[15:12.5 - 15:14.4] Yeah, we're not gonna find you an EA in Columbia.
[15:14.4 - 15:15.6] No, no, no, no, no.
[15:15.6 - 15:16.5] They're trying to place talent,
[15:16.5 - 15:17.7] and then maybe, you know, like-
[15:17.7 - 15:18.7] That screws us too.
[15:18.7 - 15:21.3] That screws us because, I mean, it's funny.
[15:21.3 - 15:23.5] Just yesterday, we signed a client in Miami
[15:23.5 - 15:25.4] looking for an executive assistant.
[15:25.4 - 15:28.1] There's been two executive assistant roles in New York.
[15:28.1 - 15:29.6] I think I'm missing even another one.
[15:29.6 - 15:31.0] Like, there's a huge demand
[15:31.0 - 15:32.5] for executive assistants right now.
[15:32.5 - 15:33.4] I feel like I don't know why-
[15:33.4 - 15:34.2] In the office.
[15:34.2 - 15:35.1] In the office.
[15:35.1 - 15:36.4] I don't know why that's the trend.
[15:36.4 - 15:39.0] I wish it was, you know, huge demand for CFOs, right?
[15:39.0 - 15:41.7] But no, right now, all these companies are saying,
[15:41.7 - 15:43.2] to drive efficiency,
[15:43.2 - 15:45.2] we need someone to take work off the plate.
[15:45.2 - 15:47.1] We need a really sharp professional.
[15:47.4 - 15:50.6] in the office, that's what, it's the trend.
[15:50.6 - 15:52.5] By the way, when there's smoke, there's fire.
[15:52.5 - 15:54.7] Like this isn't like a one-off thing,
[15:54.7 - 15:56.0] this is like a five-off thing.
[15:56.0 - 15:58.9] And it's only been like the first month in change,
[15:58.9 - 16:00.4] where six days into February,
[16:00.4 - 16:02.8] we have like six of these jobs already, it's crazy.
[16:02.8 - 16:06.9] I would never hire an offshore EA, VA, whatever,
[16:06.9 - 16:08.8] that's like doing anything meaningful,
[16:08.8 - 16:11.8] because I don't wanna give somebody in a foreign country
[16:11.8 - 16:14.2] all of my personal information, all my credit cards,
[16:14.2 - 16:15.4] my social. That's a good point.
[16:15.4 - 16:17.3] That's a very good point.
[16:17.6 - 16:20.2] Like my EA helps me with some healthcare stuff too,
[16:20.2 - 16:23.6] not that like, whatever, I've got like highly confidential
[16:23.6 - 16:25.0] healthcare issues.
[16:25.0 - 16:26.5] There's a level of trust with your EA.
[16:26.5 - 16:27.3] But there's a level of trust
[16:27.3 - 16:28.6] with somebody sitting six feet away from you
[16:28.6 - 16:30.9] versus somebody sitting in Bolivia.
[16:30.9 - 16:31.8] Yeah.
[16:31.8 - 16:32.6] Right, so.
[16:32.6 - 16:33.4] I never even thought of that.
[16:33.4 - 16:37.5] Yeah, and I think another thing to think about
[16:37.5 - 16:39.0] for these people that wanna like insist
[16:39.0 - 16:41.3] on being remote or whatever is like,
[16:41.3 - 16:42.9] not only can you be offshored,
[16:42.9 - 16:44.7] but where does AI come into it?
[16:44.7 - 16:45.5] Totally.
[16:45.5 - 16:46.4] Yeah, for sure.
[16:46.8 - 16:48.8] At which point does back office become no office?
[16:48.8 - 16:49.7] That's true.
[16:49.7 - 16:52.2] AI comes into the office with you every day, you know?
[16:52.2 - 16:53.0] Yeah.
[16:53.0 - 16:53.9] It's right there with you.
[16:53.9 - 16:54.7] It's in your pocket, right?
[16:54.7 - 16:55.5] Yeah.
[16:55.5 - 16:56.4] Here it is right here.
[16:56.4 - 16:57.2] That's wild.
[16:57.2 - 16:58.0] Let's talk a little bit about that.
[16:58.0 - 16:59.4] Have you guys gotten any calls on that?
[16:59.4 - 17:02.2] Like, hey, you know, we need somebody to help out,
[17:02.2 - 17:04.2] build us out like an AI tech stack,
[17:04.2 - 17:08.7] or like any type of like AI.
[17:08.7 - 17:09.6] Consultant.
[17:09.6 - 17:10.4] Consultant.
[17:10.4 - 17:11.2] Yeah, like a big REIT.
[17:11.2 - 17:14.0] We were just working with a huge REIT out of Boston
[17:14.0 - 17:16.6] on this like head of AI and implementation role.
[17:16.6 - 17:17.4] You know, and it's funny,
[17:17.4 - 17:18.6] cause you know, just be honest,
[17:18.6 - 17:19.7] like you celebrate your wins,
[17:19.7 - 17:20.8] you celebrate your losses.
[17:20.8 - 17:23.0] You know, this company was so gung ho about this job.
[17:23.0 - 17:24.8] We found a really good professional.
[17:24.8 - 17:26.9] I don't think they were willing to cut the check
[17:26.9 - 17:27.8] that he needed to see.
[17:27.8 - 17:28.9] And he was at CBRE.
[17:28.9 - 17:31.4] Like this was like the CBRE AI guy, you know?
[17:31.4 - 17:33.6] And they got cold feet.
[17:33.6 - 17:35.7] They, you know, maybe some egos got involved.
[17:35.7 - 17:38.1] They ended up not going forward with the professional,
[17:38.1 - 17:39.8] restarting the search.
[17:39.8 - 17:40.7] The month into the search,
[17:40.7 - 17:42.2] they got discouraged and pulled the job.
[17:42.2 - 17:45.4] And it's like, well, you still wanted that.
[17:45.4 - 17:47.5] It's like when you want to buy the new car
[17:47.5 - 17:48.6] and you realize you can't afford it.
[17:48.6 - 17:50.6] It's like, you don't have a sudden not want that car.
[17:50.6 - 17:52.2] Like you still want that new car.
[17:52.2 - 17:53.2] You just can't afford it
[17:53.2 - 17:54.5] or didn't buy it for whatever reason.
[17:54.5 - 17:57.8] It's like, I don't understand the pullback
[17:57.8 - 17:59.3] on such an important, you know,
[17:59.3 - 18:00.8] we're at the forefront of this thing,
[18:00.8 - 18:02.3] not the middle or not the end.
[18:02.3 - 18:04.5] So why would you all of a sudden give up,
[18:04.5 - 18:05.7] you know, when you're so close to,
[18:05.7 - 18:07.8] you're really elevating your company.
[18:07.8 - 18:09.8] I can't imagine what a head of AI
[18:09.8 - 18:12.0] and implementation coming from CBRE could do
[18:12.9 - 18:13.8] to like a underperforming REIT.
[18:13.8 - 18:15.0] I'm looking at their stock.
[18:15.0 - 18:16.2] Anyone can look at their stock.
[18:16.2 - 18:18.4] It's not going in the right direction, right?
[18:18.4 - 18:20.2] It's going the other direction.
[18:20.2 - 18:21.0] So-
[18:21.0 - 18:22.6] Let me be devil's advocate though for a second.
[18:22.6 - 18:26.1] So I also feel like that role,
[18:26.1 - 18:28.2] there's no, oh, I went to this school, that school
[18:28.2 - 18:32.5] and got a degree in AI implementation for a company, right?
[18:32.5 - 18:34.6] It's hard to show on a resume.
[18:34.6 - 18:36.7] It's probably those roles that you're saying
[18:36.7 - 18:39.9] where it's like, hey, I helped this big company implement it
[18:39.9 - 18:42.6] but AI is changing so quickly.
[18:42.6 - 18:45.4] There's no, just when you think, you know,
[18:45.4 - 18:46.2] how to implement it,
[18:46.2 - 18:49.4] there's a new way that AI can help a company.
[18:49.4 - 18:52.7] And so part of it, I've learned through our company
[18:52.7 - 18:56.1] is just being curious, trying things out,
[18:56.1 - 19:00.2] trying to take a second off of our extremely busy days
[19:00.2 - 19:03.3] to maybe have a task take a little bit longer
[19:03.3 - 19:06.1] just so that you can make it more efficient down the line.
[19:06.1 - 19:08.2] So we've been doing that.
[19:08.2 - 19:09.3] Is it the solution?
[19:09.7 - 19:11.6] I don't know, like maybe some of these bigger companies,
[19:11.6 - 19:13.6] you do need the guy.
[19:13.6 - 19:15.1] I think you absolutely do need the guy.
[19:15.1 - 19:16.0] I think-
[19:16.0 - 19:18.2] You need someone to drive the effort, right?
[19:18.2 - 19:19.8] It can't be, no offense to you, right?
[19:19.8 - 19:21.7] It can't be people doing trial and error.
[19:21.7 - 19:22.8] It has to be centralized.
[19:22.8 - 19:24.9] You need to have a professional drive the initiative.
[19:24.9 - 19:29.3] You can't have property managers, asset managers, analysts
[19:29.3 - 19:31.7] just poking and stabbing at different AI techniques
[19:31.7 - 19:33.5] and seeing what works and what doesn't.
[19:33.5 - 19:35.6] That's just not a conducive way to conduct business.
[19:35.6 - 19:36.5] Yeah.
[19:36.5 - 19:37.3] No.
[19:37.3 - 19:38.8] I do think like a lot of these firms
[19:39.3 - 19:41.0] when they're considering like who they're,
[19:41.0 - 19:44.0] they know they need to hire someone to like lead
[19:44.0 - 19:46.0] implementation rollout of AI.
[19:46.0 - 19:48.7] And they look like, okay, we need to hire an executive.
[19:48.7 - 19:51.0] But a lot of the times I don't even really know
[19:51.0 - 19:53.4] if that's necessary for what they need.
[19:53.4 - 19:56.5] Because they might, for instance, like a shop,
[19:56.5 - 19:59.8] it's 200 people, they want to hire a head of AI.
[19:59.8 - 20:03.0] So they go and look at all these senior directors
[20:03.0 - 20:04.9] and like AI wages are gone.
[20:04.9 - 20:06.9] So, you know, absurd.
[20:06.9 - 20:08.4] So they have something that they get like,
[20:08.4 - 20:10.3] kind of like, you know, sticker, like they're, you know,
[20:10.3 - 20:12.4] wow, we're gonna have to pay, you know, so much.
[20:12.4 - 20:14.1] And it's like, at the end of the day,
[20:14.1 - 20:17.0] like you really just, I think where we've seen like success
[20:17.0 - 20:20.6] is people hiring more junior level AI positions.
[20:20.6 - 20:22.7] It's like kind of a side note,
[20:22.7 - 20:25.6] but it's like I was reading an article about like Shopify
[20:25.6 - 20:28.4] and how they realized like their interns were the ones
[20:28.4 - 20:31.2] like that were driving the strongest understanding
[20:31.2 - 20:32.4] implementation of AI.
[20:32.4 - 20:35.3] Cause they had the most like exposure to it young.
[20:35.3 - 20:38.5] So suddenly they realized every single team on there,
[20:38.5 - 20:41.0] like throughout the entire company needs an intern.
[20:41.0 - 20:43.9] And that intern is going to focus on the AI implementation.
[20:43.9 - 20:47.2] So like, maybe you don't need the 20 year veteran
[20:47.2 - 20:50.0] with a PhD in AI to build out these tools
[20:50.0 - 20:50.9] for your real estate company.
[20:50.9 - 20:51.8] Maybe it's not that deep.
[20:51.8 - 20:54.8] Maybe you just need a super sharp comp sci
[20:54.8 - 20:55.6] right out of school.
[20:55.6 - 20:57.2] That's going to come in super motivated
[20:57.2 - 20:59.2] and you're going to pay, you know,
[20:59.2 - 21:01.8] 25% of what you had to for that year,
[21:01.8 - 21:04.0] but you're going to maybe drive even more.
[21:03.1 - 21:04.4] value for the organization.
[21:04.4 - 21:10.3] Max, we, we had an intern that this was earlier on, maybe over like a few years
[21:10.3 - 21:16.6] ago or a year or so ago, I don't remember the exact case that the intern kind of
[21:16.6 - 21:22.7] used AI, I think it was either with some accounting or reporting that they just
[21:22.7 - 21:24.5] did like a task that takes days.
[21:24.5 - 21:24.7] Yeah.
[21:24.7 - 21:25.9] And I remember what it was.
[21:25.9 - 21:26.2] Okay.
[21:26.2 - 21:28.0] So first of all, this guy was like a genius.
[21:28.0 - 21:31.6] He was way too smart for us and I think just too smart for our industry in
[21:32.0 - 21:35.2] give his name to a Bryson after the show.
[21:35.2 - 21:35.4] Yeah.
[21:35.9 - 21:36.9] Let me know who this guy is.
[21:36.9 - 21:44.3] I don't remember his name, but he, we had somebody in accounting that was doing
[21:45.1 - 21:46.2] credit card reimbursements.
[21:46.3 - 21:46.9] That's what it was.
[21:46.9 - 21:47.1] Yeah.
[21:47.1 - 21:49.8] And because it's property management, right.
[21:49.8 - 21:52.1] Or whatever you want to call it operations.
[21:52.1 - 21:56.6] And we're using the company card to buy materials and travel and all these
[21:56.6 - 22:00.2] things for the property level, which try on pays for, and then gets reimbursed
[22:00.2 - 22:02.1] for, and somebody was doing all of that manually.
[22:02.5 - 22:05.9] And he looked at, he says, what are you idiots doing basically?
[22:05.9 - 22:07.7] Like, are you out of your mind?
[22:07.7 - 22:09.2] This guy was like 22 years old.
[22:09.2 - 22:10.3] I don't think he shaved yet.
[22:10.8 - 22:14.3] And he said, I'm just, I'll just do this in AI.
[22:14.8 - 22:19.4] And the whole thing started just like reimbursing itself and creating this
[22:19.4 - 22:20.7] whole map of how to reimburse it.
[22:20.7 - 22:23.2] And this was like two years ago.
[22:23.3 - 22:23.6] Yeah.
[22:23.6 - 22:24.7] This is like 2024.
[22:24.8 - 22:27.4] This is kind of my point 18 months ago, 20 months ago.
[22:27.4 - 22:27.7] Yeah.
[22:27.7 - 22:32.4] Sometimes like, you know, these, like the, the AI role, I'm sure for these big
[22:32.4 - 22:36.1] companies, you need, you need a leader there, but maybe for some of like the
[22:36.1 - 22:41.9] middle or smaller companies, it comes to just having young talent, like a junior
[22:41.9 - 22:48.4] guy, someone that's grown up with this new wave, not the dinosaur in the room.
[22:48.5 - 22:49.7] Like us that are.
[22:50.0 - 22:51.7] We just did one of those in San Diego.
[22:51.9 - 22:55.4] It was like a BI AI analyst came right out of UCLA.
[22:55.7 - 22:56.5] Sharpest attack.
[22:56.5 - 22:59.7] Actually, I believe that he's still going for one more semester and he, this
[22:59.7 - 23:01.7] is his spring term graduation.
[23:01.7 - 23:01.9] Right.
[23:02.1 - 23:07.0] But the company was like, this kid is, is it, and they hired him early.
[23:07.1 - 23:11.2] Now he's part time, but he's going to, you know, it's almost like an internship
[23:11.2 - 23:14.1] and he's going to get the job after he graduates and exactly, exactly what
[23:14.1 - 23:17.6] you're saying, like Bryce saying, you're saying, you're saying young guy, young
[23:17.6 - 23:19.9] gal to lead that, that initiative.
[23:19.9 - 23:22.8] And we've done one of those and it was, it was, I think a great hire.
[23:22.8 - 23:23.0] Yeah.
[23:23.1 - 23:26.8] Maybe try starting out with like a intern of AI for a summer instead of trying to
[23:26.8 - 23:31.2] hire the managing director of AI, you know, I mean, just to like, I think it's
[23:31.2 - 23:34.8] just, you know, a place to start and build from there, see how much you can
[23:34.8 - 23:37.9] actually utilize it and grow, like from kind of the bottom up, you know, up
[23:37.9 - 23:42.1] instead of trying to just put this person in and help them deal with such a high
[23:42.1 - 23:45.5] expectation from day one in an area that's so constantly changing.
[23:45.7 - 23:47.8] Have you had Zalkin on yet on the pod?
[23:47.8 - 23:49.3] No, you were supposed to have John Zalkin on.
[23:49.3 - 23:51.6] So one of my friends in the industry, I'll give him a plug.
[23:52.2 - 23:57.8] Uh, he started, he left his old shop and he started a company called advise AI and
[23:57.8 - 24:01.9] he partnered up with a guy that was doing pretty heavy AI work for very large
[24:01.9 - 24:03.5] companies like fortune 500 companies.
[24:04.0 - 24:08.0] But those fortune 500 companies will pay you half a million or a million dollars
[24:08.0 - 24:10.0] to build out an AI tech stack, right?
[24:10.8 - 24:12.1] Nobody in real estate's doing that.
[24:12.8 - 24:16.1] I mean, unless it's like Vornado or Blackstone, nobody's doing that.
[24:16.1 - 24:16.5] Right.
[24:16.6 - 24:19.1] Especially like, and they're, I think they're kind of trying to target the
[24:19.1 - 24:23.5] middle market, like, or even like upper middle market, like 15, 20, 25,000 units.
[24:23.5 - 24:24.5] They're still not doing that.
[24:25.1 - 24:30.2] And they started a company called advise AI and they're a fractional AI officer.
[24:30.8 - 24:33.4] So they'll help you build out the tech stack and they use some of
[24:33.4 - 24:34.6] their own proprietary tech.
[24:35.3 - 24:37.8] And it's going to be a lot of underwriting.
[24:37.8 - 24:41.5] Of course, you know, instead of doing two, three models a day for like a group
[24:41.5 - 24:45.9] of our size or like whatever, like middle market, active sponsors do 10 models a
[24:45.9 - 24:46.2] day.
[24:46.3 - 24:46.6] Yeah.
[24:46.7 - 24:49.8] And instead of having three analysts, you have one analyst or you have an
[24:50.1 - 24:51.5] acquisitions guy with no analysts.
[24:51.5 - 24:53.6] If you're a little bit of a younger shop.
[24:53.7 - 24:55.6] Um, I know there's some other stuff too.
[24:55.6 - 24:58.1] I know the underwriting we talked about, but whatever, you'll have them on the
[24:58.1 - 24:59.5] pod and he'll talk more about it.
[24:59.5 - 25:05.5] So on that note, as Max was saying, it looks like with the growth of AI, there
[25:05.5 - 25:09.0] might be less of a demand for human capital.
[25:09.3 - 25:13.5] How have you guys been seeing that trend unfold in your, in your line of work?
[25:14.1 - 25:19.8] I think there is definitely for over, like for overall headcount, absolutely
[25:19.9 - 25:23.6] calls for a decrease, but I think in a way it almost demands that the headcount
[25:23.6 - 25:27.4] that you do hold onto needs to be of the highest quality, right?
[25:27.4 - 25:31.4] Like you can't, like, if you're going to only have one analyst versus bring in
[25:31.4 - 25:34.5] three analysts and figure out, you know, from there, well, who's the standout
[25:34.5 - 25:38.1] who's working, maybe who's not working, but you're only having one analyst and
[25:38.1 - 25:41.8] supporting them with AI, then it's like, you know, it makes sense to invest in
[25:41.8 - 25:45.1] getting the best person possible in that seat to drive value.
[25:45.1 - 25:49.2] So it's like, that's where, you know, people oftentimes say like, oh, there's
[25:49.2 - 25:51.3] not going to be nearly as many jobs with AI.
[25:51.3 - 25:53.0] Isn't that going to be bad for you guys?
[25:53.0 - 25:56.5] And it's like, I don't think so because it's going to draw, it's going to mean
[25:56.5 - 26:00.4] like, well, the jobs are left, the jobs that are still there, like the stakes are
[26:00.4 - 26:03.1] going to be even higher for the human capital that you're going to want to put
[26:03.1 - 26:03.7] in those seats.
[26:03.7 - 26:06.5] So that's where, you know, I think it could actually be a positive for our
[26:06.5 - 26:06.9] business.
[26:06.9 - 26:07.3] Yeah.
[26:07.3 - 26:12.7] And this, this might not be like a fair question, but are you actually feeling
[26:12.7 - 26:16.6] that there is now more of a demand or less of the demand in your, in your work
[26:16.6 - 26:18.7] from it, or is it just the same?
[26:18.9 - 26:21.4] I think it's hard to tell right now in real estate
[26:21.4 - 26:24.5] just where it's at in the overall market,
[26:24.5 - 26:25.4] how things are overall.
[26:25.4 - 26:26.9] There's so many other factors happening, right?
[26:26.9 - 26:29.9] What's causing, what is causing the job market?
[26:29.9 - 26:31.7] Because the job market is a little slow right now.
[26:31.7 - 26:33.5] We're not denying that.
[26:33.5 - 26:37.0] Right now, it's just a pretty slow job hiring market
[26:37.0 - 26:37.8] in real estate.
[26:37.8 - 26:39.8] So what factors are causing that?
[26:39.8 - 26:40.8] It could be AI.
[26:40.8 - 26:42.0] That could definitely be a factor.
[26:42.0 - 26:45.3] But I think it's more other fundamentals in the market.
[26:45.3 - 26:48.6] I mean, everyone's buzzword, economic.
[26:48.6 - 26:49.5] I don't think anyone,
[26:49.5 - 26:51.8] we did probably 20 meetings down here,
[26:51.8 - 26:53.6] and I don't think anyone feels like
[26:53.6 - 26:55.9] this is the best time of all time, you know?
[26:55.9 - 26:56.7] Right.
[26:56.7 - 26:58.9] But, you know, look, it's cyclical.
[26:58.9 - 27:01.4] You know, like for every peak, there's a valley.
[27:01.4 - 27:04.3] So it's just, we can't like look at it right now
[27:04.3 - 27:06.2] and be like, well, it's because of AI.
[27:06.2 - 27:07.5] There's other factors.
[27:07.5 - 27:09.5] And I think if you look at this
[27:09.5 - 27:13.3] like any other economic revolution, right?
[27:13.3 - 27:16.3] Anything that happens that's revolutionary to the economy,
[27:17.3 - 27:19.8] it does get rid of some jobs, but creates so many more.
[27:19.8 - 27:20.6] Exactly.
[27:20.6 - 27:22.9] So like when the car came around,
[27:22.9 - 27:24.9] yes, the people that were riding horses
[27:24.9 - 27:26.8] and whipping horses were out of jobs,
[27:26.8 - 27:29.0] but there were exponentially,
[27:29.0 - 27:32.9] literally exponentially more jobs making cars
[27:32.9 - 27:34.8] and everything that's car related.
[27:34.8 - 27:36.1] And I mean, we can go on and on,
[27:36.1 - 27:37.7] but I think that's kind of, you know,
[27:37.7 - 27:40.3] if you're an optimist on technology
[27:40.3 - 27:42.8] and on economic evolution,
[27:42.8 - 27:44.0] then that's the way to think about it.
[27:44.0 - 27:45.8] So you guys will have plenty of jobs to place.
[27:46.4 - 27:48.5] And just like, I was going to say like in real estate,
[27:48.5 - 27:49.8] like in the built world in general,
[27:49.8 - 27:52.6] like there's just like plenty of roles in the industry
[27:52.6 - 27:55.3] where like, how could AI replace like your property manager?
[27:55.3 - 27:57.3] Like if you like, or like, you know,
[27:57.3 - 27:58.3] maintenance professional,
[27:58.3 - 28:00.4] like it can't fix your air conditioner.
[28:00.4 - 28:02.1] It might be able to tell you how to do it,
[28:02.1 - 28:03.8] but it can't actually go there and do it.
[28:03.8 - 28:07.1] So it's like, I just think like the built world in general
[28:07.1 - 28:10.2] has, you know, just plenty of roles
[28:10.2 - 28:12.2] that are just almost like irreplaceable.
[28:12.2 - 28:13.7] Yeah, it was, I mean, my thing,
[28:13.7 - 28:15.2] like it's been my thing for a long time
[28:15.5 - 28:16.5] is construction development, right?
[28:16.5 - 28:18.9] So with that industry, like there's no,
[28:18.9 - 28:22.2] there's literally no way an AI could physically
[28:22.2 - 28:23.2] build these buildings.
[28:23.2 - 28:24.1] No, of course not.
[28:24.1 - 28:25.6] And like imagine how much more efficient, I'm sorry.
[28:25.6 - 28:28.1] The labor shortage is becoming insane,
[28:28.1 - 28:30.1] which Bryce was saying, there's opportunity for us.
[28:30.1 - 28:33.1] He doesn't think that we're, you know, losing our grip.
[28:33.1 - 28:35.4] There's like no construction talent out there.
[28:35.4 - 28:37.6] Like there's, and like vocational work,
[28:37.6 - 28:39.0] vocational schools, gone.
[28:39.0 - 28:41.1] No one wants to be an electrician anymore.
[28:41.1 - 28:42.4] No one wants to go in the trades.
[28:42.4 - 28:43.4] No one wants to work.
[28:43.4 - 28:44.7] You know what you have to do?
[28:45.1 - 28:45.9] You have to go to the job site.
[28:45.9 - 28:46.8] So no one wants to do that
[28:46.8 - 28:48.9] because they want to work from home in their pajamas.
[28:48.9 - 28:51.4] So yeah, we're like, but that means that we have
[28:51.4 - 28:54.4] an opportunity to go represent, you know, these companies
[28:54.4 - 28:56.0] and go find them these trades
[28:56.0 - 28:57.6] and these construction professionals.
[28:57.6 - 28:59.8] So I'm happy about that.
[28:59.8 - 29:01.9] That's good for our business, you know,
[29:01.9 - 29:05.7] because there is a critical lack of, you know,
[29:05.7 - 29:07.3] infrastructure talent.
[29:07.3 - 29:09.2] Well, I think part of that too
[29:09.2 - 29:10.8] is what we were talking about early on
[29:10.8 - 29:13.4] with the whole culture of work from home
[29:13.4 - 29:17.5] and now how people want to sit behind a desk
[29:17.5 - 29:20.6] to make money or sit in the comfort of their home
[29:20.6 - 29:23.9] and be introverted and not go out,
[29:23.9 - 29:26.8] not go on a podcast, not network
[29:26.8 - 29:30.5] and rather just do it behind a screen.
[29:30.5 - 29:35.1] Talk to us a little bit about where do you think that,
[29:35.1 - 29:37.2] what's wrong with our generation in that regard?
[29:37.2 - 29:40.0] You know, of like, why are people not seeing it the same way?
[29:40.0 - 29:40.9] Well, it's a problem because it's like,
[29:40.9 - 29:41.8] these are our peers.
[29:42.1 - 29:42.9] These are people that, you know,
[29:42.9 - 29:45.5] we hang out with on the weekends and we text
[29:45.5 - 29:46.9] and, you know, we joke around with,
[29:46.9 - 29:50.0] but like I go wake up six o'clock in the morning,
[29:50.0 - 29:53.1] work out, hit a, you know, eight o'clock train.
[29:53.1 - 29:54.7] It's freezing outside, you know,
[29:54.7 - 29:57.6] got my mittens on, usually I lose one, you know,
[29:57.6 - 29:58.5] and like, that sucks.
[29:58.5 - 30:00.2] And then you don't walk home with one mitten.
[30:00.2 - 30:01.7] So it's like, that's just like what you do.
[30:01.7 - 30:03.9] And then you get back home at like seven, 7.30
[30:03.9 - 30:05.9] and, you know, then your buddy's just,
[30:05.9 - 30:07.0] he never left the apartment.
[30:07.0 - 30:08.9] You're like, oh, well, this is just, you know, my friend,
[30:08.9 - 30:11.6] we just do the exact different thing every day.
[30:12.4 - 30:13.2] So it's like, it's hard for me to say
[30:13.2 - 30:14.1] what's wrong with this.
[30:14.1 - 30:15.5] Cause like, it's, these are our peers, right?
[30:15.5 - 30:18.5] This is the same level of same age, same, you know,
[30:18.5 - 30:20.6] graduating class and like,
[30:20.6 - 30:21.7] you're just doing something so different.
[30:21.7 - 30:22.5] Like, I don't know.
[30:22.5 - 30:25.3] With like 10 different side hustles going on in there.
[30:25.3 - 30:28.1] By the way, this whole like hybrid remote thing
[30:28.1 - 30:31.0] that we're discussing and like working in your PJs,
[30:31.0 - 30:33.4] this is just a modern way of saying lifestyle
[30:33.4 - 30:35.3] versus career growth.
[30:35.3 - 30:36.2] That's all it is.
[30:36.2 - 30:37.5] People don't want any, yeah.
[30:37.5 - 30:40.3] I say the more uncomfortable you are, the better.
[30:40.3 - 30:41.1] Of course.
[30:41.7 - 30:42.9] You make yourself uncomfortable in as many ways you can.
[30:42.9 - 30:43.7] Like, you know what sucks?
[30:43.7 - 30:45.7] Waking up at 6.30 and trying to, you know,
[30:45.7 - 30:46.7] put up two plates.
[30:46.7 - 30:47.5] Like that sucks.
[30:47.5 - 30:48.6] It's hard to work out in the morning.
[30:48.6 - 30:50.2] It's hard to, you know, walk to work
[30:50.2 - 30:51.1] when it's freezing outside.
[30:51.1 - 30:53.1] But the uncomfort I think prepares you.
[30:53.1 - 30:54.0] You know what's easy?
[30:54.0 - 30:55.2] Sitting at a desk, sending emails
[30:55.2 - 30:56.9] when you're in your office and you got your free coffee.
[30:56.9 - 30:59.0] Like the challenge of, you know,
[30:59.0 - 31:00.3] getting up and getting after it
[31:00.3 - 31:02.6] makes the rest of the job seem so trivial.
[31:02.6 - 31:04.5] Like it's easy to sit in an air conditioned room
[31:04.5 - 31:05.3] and rip cold calls.
[31:05.3 - 31:07.5] Like I'm calling these guys on construction sites
[31:07.5 - 31:09.1] who they're working their ass off.
[31:09.1 - 31:10.8] They're in the sun, like they're sweating.
[31:11.6 - 31:12.9] You know, they're getting their hands dirty
[31:12.9 - 31:15.5] where I look at my job and say, like, this is so easy.
[31:15.5 - 31:17.0] All I have to do is go to an office building,
[31:17.0 - 31:18.5] send emails and call people.
[31:18.5 - 31:20.1] Like that's very straightforward.
[31:20.1 - 31:22.1] Like that doesn't feel hard to me at all.
[31:22.1 - 31:22.9] Yeah.
[31:22.9 - 31:23.7] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[31:23.7 - 31:25.5] So yeah, like hybrid remote.
[31:25.5 - 31:28.5] So like when I was out of college, 22, 23, 24 years old,
[31:28.5 - 31:29.4] I was working at Marcus.
[31:29.4 - 31:32.1] I was a broker and I was telling peers,
[31:32.1 - 31:34.8] like I was working 7 a.m, 7 p.m plus weekends.
[31:34.7 - 31:37.2] and cold calling and hustling.
[31:37.2 - 31:38.7] And there are people that just,
[31:38.7 - 31:41.0] even in our industry, in the brokerage industry,
[31:41.0 - 31:43.0] they're like, ah, that's just too hard.
[31:43.0 - 31:44.8] Like, I'm not that ambitious, right?
[31:44.8 - 31:45.8] It's really what it comes down to.
[31:45.8 - 31:48.1] Like, I'll go work at Remax on the boulevard
[31:48.1 - 31:49.2] and I get a higher split
[31:49.2 - 31:50.8] and I could do half the deals that you do
[31:50.8 - 31:52.6] and, you know, make almost as much money.
[31:52.6 - 31:53.8] I don't have to work as hard.
[31:53.8 - 31:55.7] And, you know, that's enough money for me.
[31:55.7 - 31:57.2] And like, that's fine.
[31:57.2 - 32:00.4] And that's, it's a tale as old as time, right?
[32:00.4 - 32:04.5] And it just happens to be right now, it's remote, right?
[32:04.5 - 32:07.2] Somebody choosing lifestyle over career growth
[32:07.2 - 32:08.4] is just gonna go remote.
[32:08.4 - 32:10.4] And I always say, like, I'm dirty, I'm a dirty one.
[32:10.4 - 32:12.2] So I still kind of feel like I do have young.
[32:12.2 - 32:14.2] It's like, why do you not, like, people are like,
[32:14.2 - 32:15.7] I wanna travel when I'm young.
[32:15.7 - 32:17.4] I wanna do all this stuff when I'm young.
[32:17.4 - 32:18.6] It's like, well, that means you're gonna need
[32:18.6 - 32:19.4] to make more money.
[32:19.4 - 32:21.9] And look at inflation where it's taking things, right?
[32:21.9 - 32:24.5] When you're older and your, you know, bones hurt
[32:24.5 - 32:26.4] and you have kids, like, it's gonna be,
[32:26.4 - 32:27.8] you're gonna have to lock in and work harder
[32:27.8 - 32:29.9] at that older age instead of working
[32:29.9 - 32:32.4] when you have the energy and you have the, you know,
[32:32.4 - 32:34.8] go-getter attitude and then invest that money.
[32:34.8 - 32:36.8] And then when you get older, you get, you know,
[32:36.8 - 32:38.8] wealthier and it becomes easier.
[32:38.8 - 32:41.2] Like, why are you creating this challenge for yourself
[32:41.2 - 32:43.4] to earn and succeed later in life?
[32:43.4 - 32:45.6] You just kind of kick the can down the road.
[32:45.6 - 32:48.0] You know, why not use the, you know,
[32:48.0 - 32:50.5] just biological advantage of being young
[32:50.5 - 32:51.9] to try to succeed now?
[32:51.9 - 32:52.8] It's short-sighted.
[32:52.8 - 32:57.8] Our generation, you know, might not have kids
[32:57.8 - 33:01.0] or college, you know, paying for college yet
[33:01.0 - 33:04.5] or paying for weddings or paying for anything.
[33:04.5 - 33:06.8] We have way less responsibilities today
[33:06.8 - 33:10.1] than when we, what we will have 20 years from now.
[33:10.1 - 33:14.7] And yet we want to sacrifice growth for lifestyle
[33:14.7 - 33:19.0] at an age where you need to build for your future.
[33:19.0 - 33:20.8] And I think there's just a different, yeah.
[33:20.8 - 33:22.0] I'm having a good time this way.
[33:22.0 - 33:24.0] Like, I enjoy every single day I wake up,
[33:24.0 - 33:25.9] like, I'm excited to go work.
[33:25.9 - 33:27.9] Because AI is not gonna replace this, right?
[33:27.9 - 33:29.0] AI is not gonna replace this.
[33:29.0 - 33:31.3] They're gonna replace some of these other things.
[33:31.3 - 33:34.8] So not to go back to AI, but what I'm saying is
[33:34.8 - 33:37.9] there's just such a shift in culture now
[33:37.9 - 33:38.8] with our generation.
[33:38.8 - 33:40.5] And it makes me a little worried.
[33:40.5 - 33:43.8] It makes me a little worried about where our nation
[33:43.8 - 33:47.1] is heading in that regard of our productivity.
[33:47.1 - 33:49.4] You know, we're a nation that's entrepreneurial.
[33:49.4 - 33:51.3] We're the cutting edge of things.
[33:52.2 - 33:53.5] And it's through our hard work.
[33:53.5 - 33:55.7] And I just feel like now we're compromising
[33:55.7 - 33:56.5] that a little bit.
[33:56.5 - 33:57.8] And you see other countries like China,
[33:57.8 - 33:59.9] like all the kids wanna be like astronauts and doctors.
[33:59.9 - 34:02.7] And like everyone wants to be like a TikToker in America,
[34:02.7 - 34:04.3] which is like pretty concerning.
[34:04.3 - 34:05.2] Yeah.
[34:05.2 - 34:06.0] Yeah.
[34:06.0 - 34:08.6] I mean, also, I think this is also a tale as old as time.
[34:08.6 - 34:10.4] Deferred gratification, right?
[34:10.4 - 34:11.8] Like, don't do that.
[34:11.8 - 34:14.5] Don't take the six weeks sabbatical
[34:14.5 - 34:15.6] when you're 25 years old.
[34:15.6 - 34:17.1] It's kind of ridiculous.
[34:17.1 - 34:17.9] I mean, if you actually-
[34:17.9 - 34:19.2] They would like run you out of town on a rail
[34:19.2 - 34:21.4] for saying they're taking away your sabbatical.
[34:21.4 - 34:22.8] You can't say that.
[34:22.8 - 34:23.8] In where?
[34:23.8 - 34:26.2] If you say, oh, you can't take your sabbatical,
[34:26.2 - 34:27.3] they will freak out.
[34:27.8 - 34:28.7] At 25?
[34:28.7 - 34:30.0] You don't touch someone's vacation.
[34:30.0 - 34:30.9] Yeah.
[34:30.9 - 34:31.7] You don't touch their time off.
[34:31.7 - 34:33.1] Like you can't even come at that.
[34:33.1 - 34:34.1] Well, I think like, yeah.
[34:34.1 - 34:36.4] Like when I graduated from college in 2019,
[34:36.4 - 34:37.9] I was like, I feel very blessed
[34:37.9 - 34:40.0] that I got to spend like my first 10 months out of school
[34:40.0 - 34:42.9] going to an office and just like having that.
[34:42.9 - 34:45.6] And then like when COVID happened, that's gone.
[34:45.6 - 34:47.0] So like there's, and we hear about,
[34:47.0 - 34:48.4] and I think it's something we feel a lot
[34:48.4 - 34:52.0] with these kids that graduated in like 2020, 21, 22,
[34:52.0 - 34:55.0] where like they never started going to an office.
[34:55.0 - 34:56.6] Like they never did that.
[34:56.6 - 34:59.0] So in a way, like they don't A,
[34:59.0 - 35:01.1] understand the advantages to going into the office
[35:01.1 - 35:03.8] and B, like they're uncomfortable doing it
[35:03.8 - 35:05.0] because that's not what they're used to.
[35:05.0 - 35:07.6] So it just sets such a weird trend
[35:07.6 - 35:10.0] for kind of that new age coming out that like,
[35:10.0 - 35:12.8] you know, I'm hopeful that it will be offset,
[35:12.8 - 35:16.0] but you know, I'm not sure like if that generation
[35:16.0 - 35:18.0] is ever going to like fully recover
[35:18.0 - 35:20.9] just because like so many of them are so resistant
[35:20.9 - 35:22.0] from getting into the office
[35:22.0 - 35:23.8] and they're losing so much opportunity
[35:23.8 - 35:26.4] by having like all the pluses that you get
[35:26.4 - 35:29.1] from productivity, from networking,
[35:29.1 - 35:31.9] from just like being social, mentorship.
[35:31.9 - 35:33.9] Yeah, mentorship is a huge one that like is,
[35:33.9 - 35:35.3] I feel like getting lost out there.
[35:35.3 - 35:37.2] And also like you just make yourself
[35:37.2 - 35:38.4] so much more replaceable
[35:38.4 - 35:40.2] by like putting yourself in those shoes.
[35:40.2 - 35:43.8] Like, you know, it's just, it's definitely like a,
[35:43.8 - 35:45.2] you know, it's a trend for sure.
[35:45.2 - 35:47.9] And I think, you know, it's not something that's,
[35:47.9 - 35:49.4] you know, ever going to go away
[35:49.4 - 35:50.5] because we have tools now
[35:50.5 - 35:52.8] where you can work outside of an office,
[35:52.8 - 35:56.4] but it's, I just think so important to be going in there
[35:56.4 - 35:58.0] and building those networks early
[35:58.0 - 36:01.0] and just getting used to having in-person interactions.
[36:01.0 - 36:03.3] It's crazy, like when we come down here to Miami
[36:03.3 - 36:04.1] and we've been having a goal
[36:04.1 - 36:05.7] to like go on business trips every month
[36:05.7 - 36:06.5] to meet with people.
[36:06.5 - 36:08.1] And everyone's like, oh yeah,
[36:08.1 - 36:09.4] you guys are the first recruiters
[36:09.4 - 36:11.1] that have ever asked to like meet with me.
[36:11.1 - 36:12.0] Really?
[36:12.0 - 36:13.6] I feel like it didn't used to be that way,
[36:13.6 - 36:16.4] but I feel like everything like got reset in COVID,
[36:16.4 - 36:18.1] like all in-person business,
[36:18.1 - 36:19.9] like people are, you know, it just like,
[36:19.9 - 36:22.1] at least in like our industry, like recruiting,
[36:22.2 - 36:23.1] people are shocked
[36:23.1 - 36:25.0] when we like actually want to meet them in person.
[36:25.0 - 36:25.8] They just think like,
[36:25.8 - 36:28.5] we're those guys behind like LinkedIn
[36:28.5 - 36:29.6] or on the phone with them,
[36:29.6 - 36:31.8] but like that we actually want to have like
[36:31.8 - 36:33.6] a human interaction is like,
[36:33.6 - 36:35.6] like, wait, are you actually like a recruiter?
[36:35.6 - 36:36.7] And it's like, yeah, like we are,
[36:36.7 - 36:37.7] but like, we do want to meet you.
[36:37.7 - 36:38.7] And like, there is a lot of,
[36:38.7 - 36:40.4] like every time we meet with someone,
[36:40.4 - 36:41.9] it's rare that we leave
[36:41.9 - 36:44.6] without some sort of positive interaction on both sides.
[36:44.6 - 36:46.6] Like, you know, it's just like,
[36:46.6 - 36:50.1] there's something about like face-to-face, in-person,
[36:50.1 - 36:50.9] whether it's-
[36:50.5 - 36:54.0] in office or just a quick like coffee networking meeting
[36:54.0 - 36:55.1] where like you can drive so much,
[36:55.1 - 36:57.3] like there's so much value for both sides,
[36:57.3 - 36:59.4] but it just like, you know, it's surprising
[36:59.4 - 37:00.5] that it's just like, you know,
[37:00.5 - 37:02.3] people are so shocked that we wanna do that
[37:02.3 - 37:04.2] when we're in the business of people.
[37:04.2 - 37:05.3] Like it's surprising.
[37:05.3 - 37:07.7] One thing that's like really like blown my mind
[37:07.7 - 37:09.6] is like you ask anyone their favorite TV show,
[37:09.6 - 37:11.4] they're gonna say, oh, I love Succession,
[37:11.4 - 37:13.1] I love Severance, I love The Office,
[37:13.1 - 37:14.5] I love Parks and Rec.
[37:14.5 - 37:16.3] And it's like, all those shows
[37:16.3 - 37:18.3] are about fucking working in an office.
[37:18.3 - 37:19.1] Yeah.
[37:19.1 - 37:20.9] It's almost like a subculture at this point.
[37:20.9 - 37:23.7] People like they see it and it's so foreign
[37:23.7 - 37:25.9] and they can't relate to it that they actually enjoy it.
[37:25.9 - 37:27.5] I'm like, well, if you enjoy these shows
[37:27.5 - 37:30.5] where people are bantering and having ups and downs,
[37:30.5 - 37:31.9] highs and lows in the office,
[37:31.9 - 37:34.8] like why not try it for yourself?
[37:34.8 - 37:37.0] Like you clearly enjoy watching a show
[37:37.0 - 37:38.3] about people working in an office,
[37:38.3 - 37:40.8] but you don't wanna work in an office?
[37:40.8 - 37:42.4] I don't understand that.
[37:42.4 - 37:43.5] Yeah.
[37:43.5 - 37:46.4] Talk about, tell us a little bit about some,
[37:46.4 - 37:49.1] are there any interesting positions
[37:49.9 - 37:50.7] that you guys have filled recently
[37:50.7 - 37:51.8] or are hearing about,
[37:51.8 - 37:53.9] like something that's maybe outside the box?
[37:53.9 - 37:55.1] Yeah, I'll tell ya, for sure.
[37:55.1 - 37:57.8] Or maybe, I'd also love to hear about
[37:57.8 - 37:59.1] in the real estate industry,
[37:59.1 - 38:01.0] is there anything that's maybe like a canary
[38:01.0 - 38:01.8] in the coal mine?
[38:01.8 - 38:04.0] Like, are you hiring more acquisitions guys
[38:04.0 - 38:05.8] because the market's changing?
[38:05.8 - 38:08.5] Or maybe like development guys
[38:08.5 - 38:11.2] because there's gonna be some permits that are pulled
[38:11.2 - 38:12.8] because the market's changing?
[38:12.8 - 38:13.7] Something like that.
[38:13.7 - 38:14.6] Talk about both or either.
[38:14.6 - 38:16.1] I mean, we mentioned it with the EAs.
[38:16.1 - 38:17.8] I think that's very interesting.
[38:17.8 - 38:18.9] EA is definitely one thing.
[38:19.7 - 38:21.7] I would say, like last year,
[38:21.7 - 38:23.9] kind of like the last 12 to 18 months,
[38:23.9 - 38:26.8] like asset management was the hot job.
[38:26.8 - 38:29.4] But that, I'd say the past three months and onward
[38:29.4 - 38:30.7] has really kind of slowed down.
[38:30.7 - 38:32.1] I'd say where we're seeing a lot right now
[38:32.1 - 38:33.9] is on the fundraising side.
[38:33.9 - 38:36.5] Like groups looking to hire like a head of IR,
[38:36.5 - 38:38.1] head of fundraise.
[38:38.1 - 38:39.3] I'm thinking that's probably like
[38:39.3 - 38:40.3] where we're at in the cycle.
[38:40.3 - 38:41.4] Groups are thinking they're gonna like,
[38:41.4 - 38:43.2] you know, this is a good time to hire there.
[38:43.2 - 38:45.3] And then development is another area
[38:45.3 - 38:47.1] where I would say like specifically
[38:47.2 - 38:48.9] high-level development roles,
[38:48.9 - 38:52.0] like we have seen an uptick in interest in those
[38:52.0 - 38:53.7] where we pretty much hadn't seen those roles
[38:53.7 - 38:55.1] for the past two and a half years.
[38:55.1 - 38:57.2] So I think that's a promising sign
[38:57.2 - 38:59.3] on like just like the overall job market
[38:59.3 - 39:01.0] because in a way, like development,
[39:01.0 - 39:03.2] like so much in the built world,
[39:03.2 - 39:04.8] like it all kind of spins off development
[39:04.8 - 39:05.7] at the end of the day.
[39:05.7 - 39:08.5] Like even like, you know, like properties in your portfolio,
[39:08.5 - 39:11.3] like at one point, like they, you know,
[39:11.3 - 39:12.6] someone developed them, built them,
[39:12.6 - 39:14.0] and like they're still like, you know,
[39:14.0 - 39:15.1] creating the built world.
[39:15.1 - 39:17.9] So it's like, it's cool to see like, you know,
[39:17.9 - 39:19.5] the hope that development's gonna come back
[39:19.5 - 39:21.5] is that's just gonna drive growth in the whole industry.
[39:21.5 - 39:24.3] So I'd say like, yeah, on the fundraise development side,
[39:24.3 - 39:26.5] but like, yeah, acquisitions, I mean,
[39:26.5 - 39:28.9] that's been like a practical ghost town
[39:28.9 - 39:31.6] for us on the hiring front the past like two,
[39:31.6 - 39:32.7] three years we've made.
[39:32.7 - 39:33.5] It's a depression.
[39:33.5 - 39:35.0] We still see those acquisitions roles.
[39:35.0 - 39:35.9] And here's my thing.
[39:35.9 - 39:37.9] I mean, you know, when I approach one of these companies,
[39:37.9 - 39:40.3] I say, would you like to use a search firm
[39:40.3 - 39:42.3] to just see some talent in the acquisition side?
[39:42.3 - 39:43.7] They're always like, oh no.
[39:43.9 - 39:46.7] We get so many people interested.
[39:46.7 - 39:48.9] I'm like, I bet, I bet.
[39:48.9 - 39:51.7] But the best acquisitions guy or gal
[39:51.7 - 39:54.1] could close a single deal that would pay the search fee
[39:54.1 - 39:55.9] like a hundred times over.
[39:55.9 - 39:58.1] And I'm like, you wouldn't wanna maybe try
[39:58.1 - 39:59.2] to get the absolute best.
[39:59.2 - 40:00.3] I mean, it's contingent.
[40:00.3 - 40:02.1] You don't have to pay unless we find the person, right?
[40:02.1 - 40:03.7] And they just don't see that.
[40:03.7 - 40:05.8] The owners see the numbers of applicants.
[40:05.8 - 40:06.7] They don't see the quality.
[40:06.7 - 40:07.5] And Bryce pointed out the funniest thing.
[40:07.5 - 40:09.2] It's like these owners, they're like,
[40:09.2 - 40:10.5] they'll use a debt broker.
[40:10.5 - 40:14.1] They'll pay, you know, like a Walker and Dunlop
[40:14.1 - 40:16.4] hundreds of thousands of dollars on fees.
[40:16.4 - 40:18.7] They'll pay their investment sales brokers
[40:18.7 - 40:20.5] hundreds of thousands of dollars to fees
[40:20.5 - 40:22.1] to find and buy them an asset.
[40:22.1 - 40:23.8] A recruiter fee that's like 20K.
[40:23.8 - 40:25.1] Oh, absolutely not.
[40:25.1 - 40:28.6] A 15K, 20K, 25K recruitment fee.
[40:28.6 - 40:29.9] Nah, that's not for me.
[40:29.9 - 40:31.1] But they'll pay Walker and Dunlop
[40:31.1 - 40:33.0] millions and millions of dollars.
[40:33.0 - 40:35.7] So it's like, are your best assets your buildings?
[40:35.7 - 40:39.4] Yeah, are your best assets your buildings, you know?
[40:39.4 - 40:40.7] Or your people?
[40:40.7 - 40:42.3] And it's very clear, the silence is loud
[40:42.3 - 40:44.9] when they say, oh, we're not gonna just entertain it.
[40:44.9 - 40:46.5] It's like, that's fine, but guess what?
[40:46.5 - 40:49.3] There's people like you guys that will, you know,
[40:49.3 - 40:50.7] they just see the value in the service.
[40:50.7 - 40:52.2] If you don't see the value in the service,
[40:52.2 - 40:54.0] I can't show you the value in the service.
[40:54.0 - 40:55.5] And I just move on to the next company
[40:55.5 - 40:57.2] that does see the value in the service.
[40:57.2 - 40:59.7] Yeah, I mean, it's business one-on-one at this point.
[40:59.7 - 41:02.2] Like, if you don't understand
[41:02.2 - 41:04.1] that the most important part of your company
[41:04.1 - 41:06.7] is the people, like in the real estate business,
[41:06.7 - 41:09.3] we own a lot of assets, but the best assets are our people.
[41:10.1 - 41:10.9] And thanks to you guys,
[41:10.9 - 41:13.6] you guys helped us place some amazing people,
[41:13.6 - 41:15.1] you know, most recently in the last couple of years
[41:15.1 - 41:18.7] in operations and our CFO.
[41:18.7 - 41:21.0] And I can't tell you how many of our institutional
[41:21.0 - 41:21.9] like equity partners have said,
[41:21.9 - 41:23.4] hey, you've made some amazing hires.
[41:23.4 - 41:25.9] And that makes me feel really good.
[41:25.9 - 41:28.1] Obviously about like, you know, having the team together
[41:28.1 - 41:30.3] and obviously, you know, not that this is like top of mind,
[41:30.3 - 41:32.3] but paying you guys the fee is like, not even a question.
[41:32.3 - 41:34.9] It's just like, it's a no brainer.
[41:34.9 - 41:35.7] It's a no brainer.
[41:35.7 - 41:36.6] Yeah.
[41:36.6 - 41:37.4] A hundred percent.
[41:37.4 - 41:38.2] And like, when you think about like,
[41:38.4 - 41:39.3] on like the executive side,
[41:39.3 - 41:42.3] like how much value or like how much value
[41:42.3 - 41:44.2] can be lost with a bad hire.
[41:44.2 - 41:47.2] Like if you hire someone who isn't, you know,
[41:47.2 - 41:49.1] executing like on the operation side,
[41:49.1 - 41:52.0] isn't executing on business plan execution,
[41:52.0 - 41:56.3] lease up execution, like you're losing so much value there
[41:56.3 - 41:59.5] where, you know, if you hire the right person for that seat,
[41:59.5 - 42:02.5] like the value they can drive is just, you know,
[42:02.5 - 42:04.8] can be well over seven figures on a single person.
[42:04.8 - 42:06.5] Like seriously, like opportunity.
[42:06.3 - 42:11.2] So I think like, you know, it is so important to just be like, you know,
[42:11.2 - 42:14.7] open to like locating, you know, the best person for these jobs.
[42:14.7 - 42:18.2] And so, like, it is surprising to me when companies are like, especially because,
[42:18.2 - 42:21.0] you know, and we try to work like alongside our clients.
[42:21.0 - 42:23.7] Like, that's why we work non-retained, like non-exclusive.
[42:23.7 - 42:27.3] Like, we want our clients to still be able to hire someone from their internal network.
[42:27.3 - 42:31.0] Like, if that's the best person for the job, like, that's the best person for the job.
[42:31.0 - 42:34.1] Like, we want our clients to hire them so that's going to help spur future growth.
[42:34.1 - 42:36.5] And we can do, you know, more work together in the future.
[42:36.5 - 42:40.8] But just to be like, I don't even want to see the options that you have is like,
[42:40.8 - 42:45.8] really surprising to me a lot of the times just because I don't see what the cost is.
[42:45.8 - 42:46.5] But, you know.
[42:46.5 - 42:47.6] Cost is $0.
[42:47.6 - 42:51.5] I always say, worst case scenario, we fill the job and you have to pay us.
[42:51.5 - 42:52.5] Worst case scenario.
[42:52.5 - 42:53.0] Yeah.
[42:53.0 - 42:56.1] You know, because their best case scenario is they just find someone.
[42:56.1 - 43:00.5] And this actually, this professional, he worked at one of those like Cretech companies.
[43:00.5 - 43:03.8] He said this to me and it's a line that I have stolen from him.
[43:03.8 - 43:05.1] And I told him I'm going to steal this.
[43:05.1 - 43:06.7] There's three types of professionals.
[43:06.7 - 43:11.5] You're unemployed, unhappy, or you're like a good professional.
[43:11.5 - 43:15.8] And a good professional who's not unemployed or not unhappy is not applying to jobs on LinkedIn.
[43:15.8 - 43:16.9] They're a good professional.
[43:16.9 - 43:18.1] You know, they're locked in.
[43:18.1 - 43:19.9] They're taking people on tours.
[43:19.9 - 43:20.7] They're doing their rent rolls.
[43:20.7 - 43:21.3] They're lease comps.
[43:21.3 - 43:24.1] They're, you know, doing OAC meetings if they're a project manager.
[43:24.1 - 43:28.5] They're not brushing off the old resume and shooting it out to jobs on LinkedIn.
[43:28.5 - 43:31.5] So anyone who's applying to a job on LinkedIn, now there's exceptions.
[43:31.5 - 43:32.9] Company could be folding.
[43:32.9 - 43:37.0] Someone could be relocating because their wife, you know, wants to be closer to the in-laws or something like that, right?
[43:37.0 - 43:42.0] But like 99% of the people you're getting on a LinkedIn or an Indy job are unhappy or unemployed.
[43:42.0 - 43:45.6] Or they're in like Bangalore and like they're not even real people.
[43:45.6 - 43:46.2] Like I'm serious.
[43:46.2 - 43:48.5] Have you ever seen what comes through like a job on LinkedIn?
[43:48.5 - 43:49.0] Yeah, you can't.
[43:49.0 - 43:50.3] You know, like through the applications.
[43:50.3 - 43:53.0] You can't just go through the site again.
[43:53.0 - 43:59.1] So I actually wanted to touch on like one other trend I've noticed in CRE.
[43:59.1 - 44:07.6] So obviously there was the rate hike and the rate hike happened and it wiped basically a lot of companies' promotes.
[44:07.6 - 44:17.3] And I feel like promote was a way that kind of forced loyalty a bit with high level executives.
[44:17.3 - 44:28.1] And you saw this tectonic shift in a lot of companies where big, big executives are shifting to other companies and vice versa.
[44:28.1 - 44:32.9] How have you guys, A, seen that place, those type of executives?
[44:32.9 - 44:36.3] Like what are some of the calls that you've had after that happened?
[44:36.3 - 44:40.6] I want to kind of hear specifically in CRE with this happening.
[44:40.6 - 44:46.5] How now with, you know, promotes that shift with equity that has been built, that's been wiped.
[44:46.5 - 44:48.7] How has that changed your dynamics?
[44:48.7 - 44:49.0] Yeah.
[44:49.0 - 44:52.5] So I think like, yeah, promote is like it's such a big word.
[44:52.5 - 44:56.1] Like and it's such a big thing, especially in like real estate executive search.
[44:56.1 - 45:00.8] Like it's always, you know, it's like almost like the elephant in the room a lot of times because it's such a big thing.
[45:00.8 - 45:05.4] I think in a way, like, yeah, a lot of professionals like did get their promote wiped out.
[45:05.4 - 45:10.0] And now like I would say it feels almost like it's become less valued in like their mind.
[45:10.0 - 45:15.7] Like people are more focused on like, okay, what's like my actual cash comp just because of what's happened in the market.
[45:15.7 - 45:25.3] And there's recency bias, you know, like if like back in 2022, like everyone wanted promote because like look at what had happened to everyone's like promote over the past 10 years.
[45:25.3 - 45:27.1] And not like people don't want promote now.
[45:27.1 - 45:36.3] Like it's, you know, still very sought after, but I feel like it is lower on the totem pole than it was like three years ago, you know?
[45:36.3 - 45:38.7] So I think like that.
[45:38.7 - 45:40.4] Because those people probably got burnt.
[45:40.4 - 45:41.2] Like they got burnt.
[45:41.2 - 45:48.6] And now they're like, well, you know, like what am I, you know, like I back eight years ago when I signed up for this job, I thought this was like, you know, my golden ticket.
[45:48.6 - 45:50.2] And now that didn't pan out.
[45:50.2 - 45:52.3] So like, I'm not, you know, as worried about that.
[45:52.3 - 46:01.2] I think it's like promote has its most value when someone is going, like joining a role where they have never had promote.
[46:01.2 - 46:06.0] So it's almost like that thing they like, they want to like, you know, it's like, that's the next step.
[46:06.0 - 46:18.3] But then once an individual has stepped into a seat where they've had promote and experienced it, well, A, the fact that they're looking for a new job oftentimes means that it maybe didn't go quite as planned.
[46:18.3 - 46:20.3] Or why would they be looking to leave?
[46:20.3 - 46:29.0] So I think we might have a bit of like, that's more the people we talk to in these situations, because we're talking to people that are actively, you know, considering a change.
[46:29.0 - 46:34.1] So I think like, yeah, promote is, you know, it's still such a huge factor.
[46:34.1 - 46:39.2] But it's just, I think, you know, people are a little more reserved about it in a sense in this market.
[46:39.2 - 46:40.5] Yeah.
[46:40.5 - 46:41.5] Unless they've never had it.
[46:41.5 - 46:43.5] Then it's like, people think this is going to last forever.
[46:43.5 - 46:44.1] And it's not.
[46:44.1 - 46:45.3] It's like Birmingham to in the bush.
[46:45.3 - 46:54.5] People like, you know, people aren't feeling that aggressive, bullish in this in this market, you know, they want the bird in the hand, not everyone's burned out.
[46:54.5 - 46:55.3] Everyone's burned out.
[46:55.3 - 47:00.8] Recency bias, like you said, it's just, yeah, it's been so many years of a down market.
[47:00.8 - 47:04.6] And we're so deep in that we're like, we're basically in the ninth inning of the down cycle.
[47:04.6 - 47:06.5] I'm not making any predictions.
[47:06.5 - 47:08.5] I mean, I haven't called it a recession yet.
[47:08.5 - 47:10.8] So that's why are we in the first inning?
[47:10.8 - 47:12.7] Well, our industry is in a deep recession.
[47:12.7 - 47:18.5] I mean, it's whether or not people want to say it, say it, just say it already so we can start moving out.
[47:18.5 - 47:19.9] It's the worst kept secret in the world.
[47:19.9 - 47:21.3] That's the thing. I mean, come on.
[47:21.3 - 47:22.1] Like, everybody knows.
[47:22.1 - 47:24.8] that commercial real estate and multi-family
[47:24.8 - 47:26.0] are really bad.
[47:26.0 - 47:28.7] Other than maybe like a couple asset classes
[47:28.7 - 47:31.4] within commercial, like retail's been doing pretty well.
[47:31.4 - 47:32.2] Maybe self-storage or something.
[47:32.2 - 47:33.5] Even investment's been suffering.
[47:33.5 - 47:36.1] Yeah, like it's all, and there's a lot of supply.
[47:36.1 - 47:37.6] What's that gonna look like in eight to 10 years
[47:37.6 - 47:40.5] when there's a lot of supply and these leases roll?
[47:41.9 - 47:44.7] But anyways, yeah, I mean, it's a recession
[47:44.7 - 47:47.5] for our industry, so yeah.
[47:47.5 - 47:49.4] Yeah, almost to me feels like we're in like
[47:49.4 - 47:50.8] the 11th or 12th inning.
[47:51.2 - 47:53.0] It's actually the 11th.
[47:53.0 - 47:55.2] Yeah, it's like six months ago, everyone,
[47:55.2 - 47:57.0] it almost felt like, you know, it was like
[47:57.0 - 47:59.3] the bases were loaded in the bottom of the 10th
[47:59.3 - 48:00.4] and there was zero outs.
[48:00.4 - 48:02.4] Like it was gonna be over, but it's like,
[48:02.4 - 48:03.8] boom, next thing you know, it just felt like
[48:03.8 - 48:05.4] there was like three strikeouts in a row
[48:05.4 - 48:07.4] and it's like back to the top of the 12th now.
[48:07.4 - 48:08.8] Like that's how it feels.
[48:08.8 - 48:12.1] That's a very, very good description.
[48:12.1 - 48:14.9] Guys, last thought, kind of wrap it up.
[48:14.9 - 48:17.8] What's some advice you would give to an employer,
[48:17.9 - 48:20.8] a potential employee in this job market?
[48:21.7 - 48:23.8] I would just say like, for me personally,
[48:23.8 - 48:26.3] just you can't like look at the job market
[48:26.3 - 48:28.1] under the microscope of what's a bad job market.
[48:28.1 - 48:30.0] You gotta plan best case scenario, you know?
[48:30.0 - 48:31.8] You gotta say, you know, things will get better.
[48:31.8 - 48:33.7] It, yeah, recency bias I think was mentioned
[48:33.7 - 48:37.1] a couple times, but you know, like make the hire.
[48:37.1 - 48:37.9] Don't give up.
[48:37.9 - 48:40.0] If you're gonna hire the head of AI and implantation
[48:40.0 - 48:41.2] and you think that's gonna change the business,
[48:41.2 - 48:43.7] why would you decide to give up, you know?
[48:43.7 - 48:46.4] Like if you're, no one, you know, we always say
[48:46.4 - 48:48.0] it's ironic that we're in the first, you know,
[48:48.0 - 48:50.8] quarter of the year, the best professionals
[48:50.8 - 48:51.6] are the best professionals
[48:51.6 - 48:53.1] because they tell themselves news resolution,
[48:53.1 - 48:54.6] maybe end of the year they're around their family
[48:54.6 - 48:56.8] and they say, this is the year I'm gonna get a new job.
[48:56.8 - 48:58.8] And what you always see is like the best professionals
[48:58.8 - 49:01.2] step up to the plate in the first part of the year
[49:01.2 - 49:02.9] because they told themselves we can get a new job.
[49:02.9 - 49:05.5] Getting a new job is not as like spontaneous as like,
[49:05.5 - 49:08.5] oh, this guy just called me and he said the right things.
[49:08.5 - 49:09.3] That's not how it works.
[49:09.3 - 49:11.3] Like we're not convincing these people to take new jobs.
[49:11.3 - 49:12.7] Like they want new jobs.
[49:12.7 - 49:14.7] We present the good job and it makes sense.
[49:14.7 - 49:16.4] So, you know, just like if you,
[49:16.4 - 49:17.9] if this was gonna be the year of your new job,
[49:17.9 - 49:20.4] if this was gonna be the year that you made that hire
[49:20.4 - 49:21.5] and you really thought it was gonna change
[49:21.5 - 49:24.3] the trajectory of your firm, just keep going for it.
[49:24.3 - 49:25.5] Like why would you give up?
[49:25.5 - 49:27.5] Why would you psych yourself out?
[49:27.5 - 49:28.3] Yeah.
[49:28.3 - 49:29.5] I think my biggest, like honestly,
[49:29.5 - 49:30.7] the biggest piece of advice,
[49:30.7 - 49:33.9] and this is more focused on kind of the younger talent pool
[49:33.9 - 49:35.1] within real estate, but it's like,
[49:35.1 - 49:36.3] and we touched on it a little bit,
[49:36.3 - 49:38.9] like with talking about mentorship and like how key that is,
[49:38.9 - 49:40.3] but it's like, you know,
[49:40.3 - 49:42.5] if you're at like the analyst or associate level,
[49:43.1 - 49:44.7] don't think so much about like
[49:44.7 - 49:46.6] what your cash comp's gonna be this year.
[49:46.6 - 49:48.4] Think about who you're gonna be working around,
[49:48.4 - 49:50.1] what you're gonna get exposure to,
[49:50.1 - 49:52.2] and like who you're gonna learn from.
[49:52.2 - 49:54.9] And so like, I just feel like, you know,
[49:54.9 - 49:57.4] especially working with kind of this younger generation
[49:57.4 - 49:59.7] at more like the analyst associate level,
[49:59.7 - 50:02.7] sometimes their cash comp is kind of clouding
[50:02.7 - 50:04.8] what their actual like mentorship is gonna be like.
[50:04.8 - 50:07.2] And I just feel like from talking to, you know,
[50:07.2 - 50:09.5] super successful executives in the industry
[50:09.5 - 50:12.2] and hearing their story, like almost a common thread always
[50:12.8 - 50:14.8] is like some sort of great mentorship early on,
[50:14.8 - 50:16.6] like some sort of like someone who took them
[50:16.6 - 50:18.5] under their wing or really taught them.
[50:18.5 - 50:21.0] And so I feel like that is the most important thing
[50:21.0 - 50:23.0] at those kind of, you know, younger level roles.
[50:23.0 - 50:24.5] So like focusing on that,
[50:24.5 - 50:26.1] think about that as the paramount thing.
[50:26.1 - 50:27.8] Don't think so much about like,
[50:27.8 - 50:29.6] oh, I need to get a 50% pay bump
[50:29.6 - 50:31.1] if I'm gonna take a new associate job.
[50:31.1 - 50:33.6] Like, is that really gonna drive value
[50:33.6 - 50:34.8] for your career long-term?
[50:34.8 - 50:37.1] Like, you know, I don't know.
[50:37.1 - 50:39.3] Yeah, I mean, the younger you are,
[50:39.7 - 50:42.4] that needle's not gonna move your trajectory.
[50:42.4 - 50:45.4] It's about who your mentors are, who you're working under.
[50:45.4 - 50:48.9] It really does directly and indirectly
[50:48.9 - 50:51.5] predict the trajectory of your career
[50:51.5 - 50:52.9] and the network that you're in.
[50:52.9 - 50:53.9] And that's what it's all about.
[50:53.9 - 50:56.1] 100%, and I think like touching on like, you know,
[50:56.1 - 50:58.7] obviously talking a lot today about like remote work,
[50:58.7 - 51:02.2] hybrid work, it's like at the executive level,
[51:02.2 - 51:04.9] like if you're a super high performer
[51:04.9 - 51:06.6] that has a proven track record,
[51:06.7 - 51:11.0] and at that point you need to live in a certain market,
[51:11.0 - 51:12.5] like I think it can make a lot of sense
[51:12.5 - 51:15.1] for groups to still consider bringing that person on.
[51:15.1 - 51:16.1] Like I know with like, you know,
[51:16.1 - 51:17.8] Natalina when she was in San Diego,
[51:17.8 - 51:19.9] like you were willing to bring that on
[51:19.9 - 51:21.8] because she had such a proven track record.
[51:21.8 - 51:24.8] So I feel like at like executive level,
[51:24.8 - 51:27.1] like roles, if you have a proven track record,
[51:27.1 - 51:29.1] the remote hybrid, if it makes sense
[51:29.1 - 51:30.4] to get that person in the seat,
[51:30.4 - 51:32.6] then it can make a lot of sense and drive a lot of value.
[51:32.6 - 51:34.9] But it's these younger, more entry level,
[51:34.9 - 51:36.7] mid-level roles where it's like,
[51:36.7 - 51:38.5] that to me feels like that's gonna be the kryptonite.
[51:38.5 - 51:39.9] She's also on the road a lot.
[51:39.9 - 51:41.0] That was what I was gonna say.
[51:41.0 - 51:43.1] She's like an asset manager role,
[51:43.1 - 51:45.2] can be like a senior asset manager role,
[51:45.2 - 51:47.8] executive asset manager, they can be more remote
[51:47.8 - 51:49.5] because they're on the road so often.
[51:49.5 - 51:50.7] She's visiting properties every week.
[51:50.7 - 51:51.7] The properties are their office.
[51:51.7 - 51:52.6] Exactly.
[51:52.6 - 51:53.7] So it's almost like hybrid, right?
[51:53.7 - 51:54.6] It's not really remote.
[51:54.6 - 51:57.4] Yes, like when she's working office.
[51:57.4 - 51:58.4] Her team is all scattered.
[51:58.4 - 52:00.3] Any asset manager, all the regionals, yeah.
[52:00.3 - 52:02.2] Yeah, a lot of asset managers are remote,
[52:02.2 - 52:04.7] but it's truly hybrid because when you're doing
[52:05.6 - 52:07.1] your office work, yes, you're in your home office,
[52:07.1 - 52:09.6] but three days a week, you're on the road
[52:09.6 - 52:11.4] and it's really, really hard work.
[52:11.4 - 52:12.3] 100%.
[52:12.3 - 52:13.9] Like these people work really, really hard.
[52:13.9 - 52:16.8] I woke up this morning, I had seven to 10 emails
[52:16.8 - 52:18.0] in my inbox, they were all from her.
[52:18.0 - 52:18.9] Yeah.
[52:18.9 - 52:20.0] They get to study three in the morning?
[52:20.0 - 52:23.3] I mean, they're like between 10 p.m. and 1 a.m., my time.
[52:23.3 - 52:24.5] So yeah.
[52:24.5 - 52:26.7] Well, guys, really great having you on.
[52:26.7 - 52:30.6] Thanks again and looking forward to continuing
[52:30.6 - 52:33.1] to scale the company with your guys' help
[52:33.1 - 52:34.0] on the talent side.
[52:34.0 - 52:34.8] Appreciate you for having us.
[52:34.8 - 52:35.6] Absolutely, yeah.
[52:35.6 - 52:36.5] Thank you for having us.
[52:36.5 - 52:37.3] Awesome, this is great.
[52:37.3 - 52:38.1] Good stuff.
[52:38.1 - 52:39.0] Thanks, guys.