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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
If you've worked in product
marketing long enough,
you've probably encountered
a scenario like this.
You're sitting in a
meeting and two teams
in the same company are
describing the same product
completely differently.
Sales is saying one thing,
marketing is saying another,
the product team has
their own language for it.
Meanwhile, leadership keeps
asking, "Wait, so how is
this different from the
other offering again?" And
the scary part is everyone
thinks they're aligned.
Messaging problems rarely
show up as messaging problems.
They show up as slow sales
cycles, confused positioning,
weak cross-sell, campaigns
that don't convert the way
that they should, a website
that feels like five companies
stitched together into one.
Today's episode is about
what it actually looks like
to fix that, and I don't
mean just rewriting copy.
We're talking about building
the operational foundation
that allows an entire company
to speak the same language.
And I could not think of
a better person to walk
us through this than
today's guest, Kevin Chan.
Kevin has spent years helping
organizations operationalize
product marketing from the
ground up, including messaging
and positioning systems inside
highly complex organizations.
Today, he leads product
marketing at Fleetio in this
episode, we're diving into
one of the most interesting
transformation stories from
his time consulting with Hims.
Yeah, that's that big
healthcare giant that most B2B
marketers are familiar with.
You probably remember them
from that big conference
that they put on every year.
So while working with Hims,
Kevin helped turn super
scattered product expertise
into a shared messaging
system that the whole
organization could use.
Kevin, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Al. Happy to be here,
uh, alongside so many other
PMMs that have walked before
me and that I've listened to.
So, uh, yeah, happy to be here
Awesome.
Thanks so much.
Okay, I'm really excited
to talk about this, uh,
'cause it's something that
I think a lot of PMMs
have encountered before.
So we're gonna dive right in.
You're currently at
Fleetio, and I, I wanna
come back to that.
We're gonna talk about
how this kind of all
intersects into your career.
But, um, today's case
study is about Hims.
So give us a quick snapshot
for those who may be listening
and like, "I've heard of
Hims," or, "But I don't
know exactly what it is."
Like, give us some
context on that
Yeah.
So, uh, HIMSS is a global
healthcare organization
that's really focused on, um,
helping healthcare systems
like acute organizations Like,
hospitals and their healthcare
leaders use information and
technology to improve the,
uh, patient outcomes of those
that, in which they serve.
Not to be mistaken, uh,
with Hims and Hers, which I
understand is like a different
sort of pharmaceutical brand
that's in the United States.
Um, so they're very
much on the sort of
global healthcare side.
I think the thing that's
unique about them is they,
um, have a host of both
digital but also educational
event and advisory style
services that they offer.
So again, like a very
complex portfolio like
you mentioned, Elle.
And, uh, like of course,
like you mentioned too,
I think most people know
them from that one big
gl- global conference that
they do every year as well.
Yeah.
Like, I feel like every
tech marketer has, you
know, probably touched a
campaign marketing strategy
for at a Hims conference.
okay.
Very cool.
Very helpful.
Okay, now diving a
little bit into the
actual case study itself.
So for this first segment of
our show, we're gonna talk
about when you started at Hims
and how you realized that you
needed to build this messaging
system for the, for the whole
company, which is pretty huge
and, again, something that I
think es- PMMs especially at
more complex organizations
have encountered.
So walk me through, like, what
was going on when you walked
into the situation at Hims?
Yeah.
So I joined Hims, um, as
sort of like a, full-time
director of product marketing,
but on a contractual basis.
And so I wasn't like a
permanent headcount there.
They, they had a PMM need
that they wanted to fill and,
um, I had for-- worked with
their CMO at the time, uh, in
a former engagement, and so I
was sort of brought on board,
um, in that capacity I think
the interesting thing about
PMM at HIMSS when I joined
was really the challenge, as
we know it today was HIMSS
has a lot of credibility.
I mean, there's a reason
that a lot of organizations
are going to that global
conference is because they
want to be associated with
sort of the healthcare, uh,
technology advisory services
sort of umbrella that HIMSS
offers to, you know, so many
North American institutions.
Um, and you know, they have
a lot of that credibility,
they have a lot of that
expertise, and they have
a very broad portfolio.
But I think that sometimes
works against an organization
like HIMSS where, um,
that same portfolio
is very fragmented.
And so they have a lot of
products, you know, they
have a lot of service-led
offerings, whether that's,
uh, you know, a professional
development network,
accreditations, um, both
at the individual and the
organizational level, um,
maturity model related
solutions that align closely
to, um, acute patient care
outcomes that again, like
these hospitals are, are
trying to improve upon and
also advisory-style work.
And so if you think about
all of that together, like
how can an organization or
even like a buyer possibly
know, hey, you know, how
does this all fit together?
What does my
organization need?
what type of prof-
professional development
do I want to implement
across my, my institution
to drive, again, you know,
better patient outcomes?
And so while they could
understand that HIMSS was,
you know, a very credible
organization, I think it
was harder to understand
like what part of that
credibility or what part of
that overall portfolio of
solutions was right for them.
Which ones should
they start with?
Which ones should
they grow into?
And you know, like what is
that sort of, again, like
maybe buyer journey even aside
from coming to HIMSS in the
first place, but then looking
at that menu and, and, and
trying to make, make it sense
for-- make sense for them.
And so, stepping into
that, HIMSS at the time
when I joined, like had
no true PMM function.
There was a product
marketer that was there.
I think she had her hands
tied with just so much of
the sort of the campaign
work that can really overlap
with, PMM competencies in
an organization like that.
And so as a result of that,
those campaigns or any
sort of, um, go-to-market
tactics that they were
working on were very ad hoc.
And so they were, you know,
different each time and,
different in terms of the
copy that they were using
because they didn't really
have that sort of foundational
messaging structure
to, to base it off of.
And, you know, we'll, we'll
get there in a second.
But they also had no,
you know, shared ICP or
understanding of a persona
framework in terms of like,
who are we gonna be targeting
and not just say, you know,
everyone underneath this sort
of healthcare umbrella, but
like how do we niche down?
And as a result of that
niche down, both the
channels that we're using
and the copy and, you know,
putting it all together.
they also, as I mentioned,
um, alluded to before,
didn't really have any
sense of like a cross-sell
or bundling strategy too.
And so that really also led
to like a lot of internal
competing narratives where,
um, they were sometimes
going to market with
slices of campaigns that
were actually, slightly
combative to one another and
essentially saying, "Hey,
here's like two options."
And instead of maybe saying,
"Here's why you should choose
them together," it was sort
of a bit more like maybe
just, just choose the one
that maybe where, um, this one
business using it is pushing
at the time and with less
consideration to the others.
What I'm realizing as
you're just describing the
situation that you walked
into is that, like, there's
this domino effect of
having, a messaging problem
where it starts to infuse.
You don't notice it right
away, but it starts to infuse
into other areas of the
company, and ultimately the
customer's gonna feel that
too, that fragmentation.
so okay.
So you came in, and you
know, some of it probably
the CMO noticed as well
and is the reason why
they brought you in.
Um, and then obviously things
that you picked up as well.
So I guess, where
did you start?
Like, there's a lot
that you mentioned here.
There's, there's so much
that you just described.
So where did you
even get started?
Yeah.
So, I think as most
consultants are usually
being brought on and knowing
that your, you know, your
time is limited in that
organization and you're
trying to have an outsized
impact, I was really brought
in to help just create, more
scalable, uh, evergreen kind
of like iterative processes
and foundations that, um,
eventually they could bring
in someone full-time in-house
to be able to sort of anchor
on and, um, create this like,
again, like repeatable motion
across their portfolio, as
it relates to like product
marketing and different
go-to-market, um, activities.
or how to have PMM as a
function be better plugged
into all the existing
functions within Hims.
And so, um, you know, product
organizations, service-led
organizations, and then of
course like the marketing team
in terms of like being able
to use all that foundational
stuff in the various channels
in which they're upkeeping
and wanting to improve upon.
And so, uh, really building
up the product marketing
discipline from the ground up.
for us, we really started?
really at the sort of core
foundations of I think
where most PMMs would
start, which was around
standardizing messaging and
positioning, which was a
big need for an organization
which again, um, had no
consistency and sometimes
ended up cannibalizing their
own products or solutions
as a result of that.
and then obviously like
the personas in which each
of these messaging and
positioning frameworks should
be, most applicable to.
But I think maybe before we
get into like obviously the
frameworks and the templates
and things like that, I
think the bottom line was in
order to build a repeatable
process across any of these
different areas that a
product marketer may own, is
really like making sure that
there's alignment across,
um, leadership, subject
matter experts, whether
that's, uh, product experts
or service-led experts, and
marketing and sales around
like a shared understanding
of, first of all, like how
PMM should be leveraged
in a very multifaceted,
very multi-complex
kind of organization.
And, uh, to do that, I think
obviously before you're
us- applying templates,
you need to understand what
those templates should be
leveraging information off of.
And so the task for me from
day one was, you know, let's
build a good relationship
with all of these internal
stakeholders that I mentioned.
Let's make sure that we can
build some sort of repeatable
engine here, but also earn
credibility, not just for
myself, but for that product
marketing function that
needs to be able to be stood
up and well understood.
And that starts with
voice of customer and not
just internal opinion.
And so, I think like most
people do a listening
tour when they start
at an organization.
I think it's not just
listening about, hey, what are
the problems in the market,
but what's like, what is
the relative understanding
of product marketing
within that organization?
And so how can you understand
first like what type of
gap you might need to jump
just in terms of getting,
you know, those internal
folks on board in, in, in
full agreement that way?
Okay, so you just mentioned
a bunch of, I would say like
big objectives that you had.
which is so- I, I think it's
really smart that you put
those down thinking about
like, okay, here are the like
big rocks that I'll need to
hand- get ahold of before
we actually get started.
So once you actually like
put those, into action, like
what does that look like?
And I like that you,
you talked about like
building, um, uh, basically
the PMM discipline
and making sure that,
leadership and stakeholders
aligned with that.
It kind of sounds
like a PMM charter.
I don't wanna put too much
like words into your mouth.
But, um, you tell me like
what is the, what kind of
like actions did you take,
you know, as the next step?
Yeah.
It, it was, it was a little
bit of a, a, a charter, I
guess you could call it.
I think the, uh, I heard this
term the other day and I'm
gonna steal it, um, 'cause I
just felt, feel like it was
really relevant in this, in
this sort of case example.
is like really what we
wanted to do was come in on
day one and say, "Hey, you
know, if we're a restaurant
and we're just opening
up our business and we're
sort of doing that soft o-
opening, here's like the menu
that you can sort of order
off of right now," right?
Like, here's the appetizers,
the kind of things that like
a product marketing team
should be able to support on.
Here's maybe your entrees,
which are obviously like
the things that, you know,
PMM can take the lead on.
And then, Yeah.
you might notice these things
that are maybe like, part of
A- menu that might be able
to come in the future, but
understanding that today we're
sort of like in this soft
opening phase and we wanna
kind of serve you, again, like
the dishes that, we know that
we can serve really well, you
know, in, in the beginning of
opening up the kitchen and the
service and things like that.
And so, um, for us with that
charter, uh, or with that
menu, uh, as you, as we would
just put it just now, we
started with the messaging
and positioning side.
And one of the reasons why we
chose to do that was I think
that when, especially like
executives or stakeholders
who are less familiar what
PM-- with what PMM can bring
to the table, a lot of the
times starting with messaging
can be valuable because it
can also just be an inter-
great internal documentation
exercise of essentially
putting a plan on a page and
getting stakeholders to be
able to commit together on
that being, um, sort of the
right strategy moving forward.
Because what is a positioning
document, if not a
strategy well documented?
Yeah.
A- absolutely.
Exactly.
Okay.
So you started with, basically
the messaging and positioning,
getting the plan on the page.
Like, once you have all of
that, you know, buy-in or
whatever from executives,
then what do you do with that?
And, like, and, and I guess,
like, before I, before
we get into that, I wanna
double down on a comment
that you made, or I guess
maybe more of an observation
based on your comment.
At the start of this, we
talked about the whole big
picture mission that you have
is to create a process, right?
A system.
And I love how your mind and,
like, action plan immediately
went to, "I need to get my
stakeholders on board in,
defining, like, what the
product marketing function
even is before we even start
with building that system."
Because the system's not
gonna work if they don't have
beliefs and aligned on the
foundation o- of that system.
So I thought that was
really good, I guess,
course of action.
So, once you do that, then,
like, I guess, um, and before
we jump into, like, what
the outcomes actually looked
like for you, is there anyw-
anything else to the story
in terms of, like, you build
out the messaging, like what
else contributed to this,
like, system, this messaging
system that you built?
and then I wanna talk
about, or I wanna hear
about the results.
Yeah.
So I think, um, you know,
as we were building out
that sort of menu charter,
uh, and we decided, hey,
you know, messaging and
positioning is gonna be where
we're gonna start first.
before we actually started
putting, uh, I started putting
pen to paper on sort of like,
um, getting to work on that
messaging, um, the first
action that we actually took
was it starts with education.
And I maybe have alluded
to this a little bit in my
earlier statement, but, I
think what we can sometimes
take for granted as product
marketers with a familiar,
familiar model, such as like
a messaging and positioning
framework and, you know,
there's many of those
templates out there, and
you can't really go wrong
with, with any of them.
But I think you can kind
of look at it and you can
immediately understand
sort of what the relative
value of that looks like.
I don't think the same can be
always said with, again, like
a, an executive stakeholder
who has never worked with a
product marketing team before
or has, you know, maybe,
been dismissive in the past
of what value a messaging
and positioning document can
have as a, uh, instead of,
you know, trying to get to
the heart of it, which is
oftentimes like, "Well, this
is nice, but like, can you
show me it on a webpage?"
You know what I mean?
Like that kind of analogy.
And so
I think, uh, starting with
education first, the way
that we wanted to approach
it was, okay, how can we
build something in the way
that they can perceive the
relative importance of it?
Or like, how can we start
really at ground zero
and assess with these
stakeholders, have they
ever seen a messaging or
positioning document before?
And if they have, like,
did they buy into it?
Or if they didn't,
why was that?
And so I think that's
where the listening tour
really came into play.
And I think one of the
things that I had understood
while I was starting to
meet with these stakeholders
was, um, some of them
had obviously seen like a
messaging framework before.
Some of them had, worked
with a PMM team before, but
some of them haven't as well.
And so instead of maybe
starting with, um, something
that was a bit more on the
marketing side, you know, like
a little bit maybe too fluffy
in terms of like the different
categorical components of it.
Um, again, working in
HIMSS, which is like a very
healthcare driven, very
technical kind of stakeholder
audience in which they serve,
in which comprises their sort
of employee base as well.
Um, we ended up choosing, I
think a framework that's just
rooted in a lot more of the
practicality in which they
prefer to understand things.
And so for that sort of
framework, we chose, um, you
know, really rooting what,
what the messaging should
be for each of the products
and solutions in sort of
like that common pains,
gains, and jobs framework.
So again, like what
is the buyer's pains?
Like what are they feeling
that, provokes them to go
find a better way to do
what they're, they were
currently doing in the past?
Um, you know, what are
obviously the gains and
so what are they trying
to, get out of that?
And that's obviously not
just for the organization,
but obviously commonly
overlooked is like the
individual that's feeling
the pain the most pronounced,
the one that's going out
to find the solution.
There's an intrinsic
motivation for them to be
able to do that, right?
They wanna seem more
competent in their job.
They want to get a
promotion, whatever that
sort of, sort of looks like.
And we wanna make
sure that we're, we're
capturing those gains.
And I think that was well
understood by our stakeholder
group as well because they,
you know, care immense.
These, healthcare
professionals, you know,
are, um, they take a lot
of pride in their work and
they want to, you know, they
also want to be recognized
for that type of work
that they are providing.
And so, um, gains is a, you
know, powerful thing in the
healthcare sector at times.
And then obviously jobs.
And so across a acute
organization like a
hospital, there's a lot
of both technical and
non-technical folks that are
involved in, patient record
keeping, o-overall patient
care, tracking outcomes.
And so how do we make sure
that we're capturing all, all
of the very disparate jobs,
um, sort of under that roof?
And so I think even by
educating stakeholders on a
framework like that, you can
sometimes even see their eyes
light up where they're like,
"Oh, like this is a great way
to categorize something that
maybe I have been thinking
about or even writing down
on a notepad, but I didn't
know how to like collect
my thoughts in such a way."
And, uh, that's where I
think like, you know, PMMs
are, invaluable in our
ability to sort of like
help categorize across a
wide body of folks with
different opinions, like what
that ultimately looks like.
And so, I spent probably like
the first two weeks of joining
Hims and, you know, breaking
down that menu and then
figuring out, okay, how do
we do that listening tour and
open up people's, willingness
to be educated about product
marketing and messaging?
And then, um, and then I
sort of got to work on, uh,
concurrently got to work with,
um, also proving my worth.
And so, you know, I can
ask a lot of questions.
I can, hopefully engage
people in the right way.
But like how do you earn
trust, especially as a
consultant or a new person
joining an organization,
that you not only are, you
know, great at maybe like
listening to them, but show
that you can quickly have an
understanding of the market,
so when you're pr- producing
strategic material that
they trust the material that
you're ultimately creating.
And so concurrent to that, I
conducted a lot of like sort
of VOC research upfront, and
so wanted to show that I'm
not just, hearing from them
and then repeating back to
them what they just told me in
terms of their understanding
of the market becoming my
understanding of the market.
And so, um, quickly got to
work doing the things that,
you know, all of us do.
So sitting in on customer
calls, pouring over CRM notes
on won and lost opportunities
and all the different sort of
activities progressing across
deal stages, reviewing the,
all the various sort of like
beta documentation or product
technical documentation
across both, again, the
technical and non-technical
offerings that they had.
pulling insights from
these very well-established
healthcare advisory boards
that Hims, um, chaired
and often held as part of
their sort of portfolio
of, of advisory services.
and used all of that to
actually create, um, a
centralized VOC artifact.
And really, um, in order for
me to then bring into, um, a
part I'm gonna talk about in
a second, which is around,
uh, like workshopping and
sort of showing a, a bit
of a myth versus fiction,
uh, through that as well.
I love all of this, in
particular how you prepared
the artifacts and I guess
anything that you were gonna
present to them by assessing
that, like what you call
the, the willingness to learn
or willingness to listen.
I think that's something
that just when you're in
a rush, you've got big
objectives, you've a lot
on your plate, it's, it can
be easy to skip that, part.
So, uh, I'm very eager to hear
kind of like once you did…
That's a lot of work, right?
It's like sifting through,
the VOC work, and sitting
down with all the SMEs,
and getting their feedback,
and getting their, um,
perspective on the market.
so tell me, I guess, like
once you did all of that work,
like bring us home to like
what the, you know, results
might look like and anything
else that, that got you there.
Yeah.
So, um, after all that
VOC work, work was done,
actually this is kind
of the fun, fun part.
And so this is kind of
like where you, uh, at
this point you feel like
you've done the work and now
you're ready to prove it.
And so, um, for us,
typing was good.
Um, they had a, uh, were
having a onsite based in
Chicago with all of their
different, uh, senior
leaders coming together.
And so, uh, and as part
of that, with actually
very little product on my
side, and again, this is I
think like the importance
of getting buy-in upfront.
I had actually asked for, um
an extra day of that onsite
where I could dedicate it
to, doing a bit of that
messaging and positioning
works, workshopping on
like together, physically
together at that onsite.
And so we were able to bring
together those senior leaders.
Um, we, we all met in
Chicago and, uh, we, and
I conducted, a messaging
and positioning workshop.
And so bringing it all
together, this is sort of
where, uh, I was able to, talk
about the pains, gains and,
and jobs framework that I had
already briefed them all on.
So they were, you know,
they were familiar with it.
They sort of knew what
to expect through this
process, and so you didn't
need to do education up
front with, and, you know,
hope that the 12 people in
the room all understand it
the same way right away.
Like we've done that
tr- preparation.
We've, we've prepared
them in that way.
And so through that, we, we
put up a bunch of actually
these, big whiteboards
with, you know, like your
sort of like breakout of
tables with like pains,
gains, jobs, like, how does
a customer describe it?
You know,
Yeah.
Did you use sticky notes?
Please tell me there
were sticky notes.
notes.
yes.
And, uh, and we got to work.
And so, you know, I think
that, um, the senior leaders
were all able to share
their different viewpoints.
Some of them, you know,
on more of the technical
product side, some of
them that were more on
the maybe accreditation
education side, um, some
of them that were more, on
the sort of advisory side.
And so we got a lot of
like different viewpoints,
which I think was,
um, was really great.
And once we got those
sticky notes all mapped
out there, um, that's when
I brought out the VOC.
And so I didn't wanna
immediately come in and
say, "Hey, I know-- Again,
I know better than you.
I had a chance to talk to
all of you, and I did my
own VOC research, research,
and only listen to me." And
instead, what I said was,
"Let's listen to each other.
Let's all write these down.
Let's see what we agree with
and what we may disagree with,
and then how do we overlay
that VOC that we created now,
um, over top?" And so I ran
them through the VOC and sort
of was able to show them like,
again, these are the data
points that we got them from.
Like, here's how we
earn some credibility
in the room as PMMs.
Like here are the sources of
the data, but not just are
we like arbiters of data.
We're not data analysts, but
here's what the data means.
And so we to- we would take
the VOC and, uh, like in
a live exercise, sort of
map some of that VOC data,
over those sticky notes.
And so that's
essentially, sounds fancy.
It's just more sticky notes
on top of sticky notes and
sort of like a VOC sticky
note, uh, with obviously
like the opinionation
kind of sticky note.
and you know, I think
the good news through it
all was, thankfully,
uh, 'cause I've, I, I
have seen this go a bit
more awry than this.
Um, we found about 70%
alignment between sort of
like the pains, gains and jobs
that the senior leadership
perceived them to be.
And, you know, obviously what
we were seeing in terms of,
um, you know, the advisory
boards that I was able to
sit in on, you know, some
of the CRM notes and, um,
things like that as well.
Um, and where there was
actually most of that
mismatch, so where that
30% mismatch was, was
actually, not in terms of
general directionality.
The directionality actually
overlap y- I would say, m-
majorly or, or do- dominantly.
Where most of the mismatch
happened was, um, around
like very specific
wording and language.
And so again, I think
that, you know, uh,
when you're working on
something as important as,
as messaging, there's a
subjectivity to it, right?
There's an element of, well,
you know, if you, you tend to
speak or, or use the phrasing
of the people that you spend
the most time with, right?
And so on the senior
leadership side, they are
not spending as much time
with sort of like our, um,
champion or sort of like our
in-the-weeds buyer persona.
They're spending more time
with like other fellow
executives and, uh, and
the partnerships and, uh,
relationships they're trying
to build, you know, sort
of above the power line.
And so, where we ended up
seeing most of that mismatch
and, um, really where,
again, using everything as an
educational moment, the sort
of final l- great point as
we sort of departed from that
senior leadership onsite was,
using this workshop not to
just build buy-in to whatever
we put on the sticky notes,
but again, slowly bringing
them along that journey to
be able to say, "Hey, like, I
think we all learned a little
bit more about our audience
today, and then let's continue
to think about that moving
forward as now we start to
consult with other groups,
through that process as well."
Yeah.
Bravo.
I, it's so hard to get that
executive alignment, but
what I've noticed throughout
your story is that if
this big workshop that
you were doing was kind of
like the big game, right?
You were preparing for
the big game, like every
moment before then.
You know what I mean?
Like you had, you know,
almost like practice shows
or y- you know, where you
met with some of those
stakeholders ahead of time.
So by the time they saw
something in the workshop,
it wasn't the first
time they had seen it.
Like you had kind of like
been preparing their like
readiness to accept what
you were going to unveil
to them in the workshop.
Uh, so I just think that was
so, I don't know how, how much
that w- I think it was pretty
intentional the way that you
did that, but I thought that
was, a really sharp strategy.
okay.
So what I wanna do now is
take this case study and
turn it into a playbook,
and you've kind of given us
some pieces of that already.
But let's say that I'm a
product marketer who is,
kind of going through the
same thing, where I work
at this super complex
organization and I have all
these different offerings.
I have services, I
have products, I have,
you know, subscription
models, all, et cetera,
et cetera, and no one's
speaking the same language.
And I am coming to
you as my coach.
Where do I get started
in all of this?
What's step one?
step one is assessing
stakeholder readiness and,
uh, I think, you know, that
was pretty clear up front.
I think, uh, If you're,
sometimes like itchy on the
trigger finger or itchy on
the action like I am sometimes
and you just wanna like
jump straight into messaging
documents, that sometimes
can get you in trouble.
And so, I think what
you really need to do
is understand how, an
organization currently thinks
of what product marketing
can bring to the table and
messaging obviously sometimes
being like a very strong
component of, uh, of that.
And so the real blocker
with step one or even before
you move beyond step one is
that different teams have
different beliefs, right?
And so, um, does the
company understand truly
the difference between
positioning versus messaging
and messaging versus copy
maybe most importantly,
uh, important than other?
and then from there, does
sales trust the way that
PMM puts together messaging
in the first place?
Do they understand
the process?
Do they ha- you know, have
that implicit trust or
do you need to earn it?
And so what steps do you
need to take to earn it?
I think that, um, a useful
question to ask when you're
joining an organization
for the first time is when
you're understanding the
baseline of the understanding
of product marketing or
messaging, like what prevented
the last, that last attempt
from being successful?
So that last attempt of
building, uh, personas,
that last attempt of writing
messaging and having it stick,
um, through enablement and
through marketing channels.
Like what, what was the
hindrance and, and, and
how can you learn from that
before you make that same
mistake a second time and,
um, and maybe erode that trust
further without knowing it.
And so, I know I think first
and foremost, you have to
educate the people on why
what you're working on matters
and how it can help that
organization make better
decisions, uh, downstream of
where that work is happening.
Yeah.
I love step one because it's
all about earning trust,
and that is going to be the
biggest hurdle, especially
if you're somewhere where
trust has been broken.
I worked at an organization
that I was, like, the third
PMM leader to come in, and
it was just, like, so hard to
get all of the stakeholders to
trust product marketing again.
It took a long time.
It took, like, uh, almost
six months before I
finally got everyone…
And, I mean, we're talking
a massive organization.
So, so I appreciate the, like,
some of the, um, tips that
you give on how do you assess
that and, you know, maybe
how you start to earn trust.
So okay, step one is assessing
stakeholder readiness.
So what is step two?
Step two is that doing the
voice of the customer work.
And so, again, once you
understand that organization's
readiness, uh, now you need to
ground the work in evidence.
And so that's where, earning
your seat, especially as
a consultant or a newbie,
is this is where, this
is where that gets done.
And so otherwise, you know,
whatever you're working on,
messaging in this example
can become a debate about
internal opinions as, uh,
as opposed to, um, you know,
here's like, yes, there's a
art to writing messaging, but
there's also a science to it.
And so here's the science.
VOC gives you that
shared source of truth.
And in Him's example, um,
admittedly the data setup
was not perfect compared to,
I think the way we can, uh,
use AI and a lot of the new
ways that we can collect that
voice of customer tooling.
But back then that wasn't
present, but we had something
and that was better than
nothing to earn that trust.
it was enough to identify
the patterns and keep going
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay, I love that
you mentioned AI, and
I wanna come back.
So I'm gonna-- we're gonna
get into a couple other,
like, side topics before
we move on in the playbook.
So earlier on in our
conversation, you
mentioned that oftentimes
stakeholders can confuse
messaging with copywriting,
and that is so true.
I cannot tell you how many
messaging strategy meetings
I've been in where, like,
every word was picked apart.
And there are times when you
should pick apart language.
There, there absolutely are.
But sometimes it was just
like, "No, no, no, this
isn't, like, website copy.
Like, that's not what this
is." So, um, so I'm glad
that you called that out, and
then I'm also glad that you
called out AI, and I have some
questions for you around AI.
now I remember interviewing
somewhere because I had done a
lot of-- I was v- I've always
been a very strong believer
in voice of customer work
and talking to customers and
synthesizing CRM data with
sales calls transcripts, and
actually talking to customers.
And I remember working,
interviewing somewhere
once, and they were shocked
at how much time I spent
doing the VOC work, and
they thought, like, "How
do you have time for that?"
With all of the, like--
'cause PMMs do everything.
Like, we do so-- we're
responsible for so much.
So how do you
have time for it?
So that's no longer
an excuse now.
With AI, we can, you know,
jump through some, jump
over some of those hurdles.
So, like, how do you think
about, like, AI changing,
like, the VOC collection
for, like, messaging work
and especially, like, how
would you compare it to
this particular project
if you were to, like,
kind of like do it again?
How does AI play
a role in that?
Yeah, I think it, I
think it changes things
quite drastically.
And so, um, when I was
at Hims, this was, yeah,
maybe closer to five
years ago at this point.
And so, uh, none of that
at least existed, at
least to the competency
level that it does today.
Um, but yeah, it can
help a lot on the
research and especially
on the synthesis side.
Um, when I was working with
Hims, the OC collection was
much more manual, and so
I'm sure a lot of people
can empathize with this,
but I was poring over CR-
sorry, CRM notes manually.
I was, sometimes Command
+ F-ing to si- find unified
keywords and make sure
that I'm drawing down
that information correctly
or sort of distilling it
into different categories.
I was, you know, meeting
with, uh, advisory boards
for feedback, and I didn't
even have a call recorder,
so I was writing stuff
down on a notepad and,
and having internal SME
conversations and again,
kind of doing the same thing.
And so the work was valuable.
VOC work is super
valuable, but it was slow.
I think today with AI, it's
just so much easier to turn,
uh, unstructured customer
data into structured customer
data, and you can get that
from all very various facets
of, um, your organization.
And so, you know, call
transcripts are one
way that you can, you
know, add that in.
Same thing with sales
notes, uh, that are in your
CRM, customer interviews,
support tickets, public
reviews, uh, from review
sites, things that are on
community forums like Reddit.
and with AI today, you can
pretty much just take all
of that, put it into like
a second brain, and then
be able to like query that
information or prompt it in
any which way to make sure
that you are slicing and
dicing it as many different
strains as you need to, to
be able to get that insight.
And so, the work
just moves faster.
But the one thing that I will
say about AI for data research
or synthesis is, if anything,
it just makes PMM judgment
more important than ever.
I think I said at the
top again, that PMMs are
not data analysts, nor do
I think we should think
of ourselves as them.
Instead, you know, the data
can come from anywhere, right?
Like, I think we're,
we can work with really
great data teams to
get, to get information.
We can work with our
product teams to better
understand maybe the user
and how they're different
than maybe the research
we're doing on the buyer.
But ultimately, I think it's
that PMM sense or gut that?
you can sort of continue
to build upon over time to
say, "Okay, well, um, it's
not just about me being
an echo chamber of all the
same insights that everybody
else knows, but like,
what's the strategic insight
that I might have as I'm
pulling these all together?"
That's where that strong
sense of, I think PMM
opinionation comes from.
When someone's coming to
you as a PMM, they're not--
they don't want your data,
they want your opinion,
and I think that's really-
I am so glad that you said
that because one of the,
cautions that I have to
PMMs who are not skipping
the VOC work these days,
they're doing it but they're
doing it with AI, which
is helpful, so helpful.
Like we just talked about
how helpful that is.
But, um, my caution is for,
and particularly for junior
PMMs who are just kind
of starting their product
marketing careers and they
didn't ha- they didn't,
um, you know, experience
l- product marketing life
without AI like you and I did.
So they don't, they don't know
what it's like to sit there
with a pen and notepad to take
hand notes, you know, or, um,
plug in pages of notes into a
spreadsheet and to, you know,
sift everything together.
Like they don't, they didn't
have to do all of that.
So but, and it, and it's,
there's pr- definitely
pros and cons to this, but
I think one of the cons,
and that's why I call it
a caution, and I wanna get
your perspective on this.
I still think product
marketers should, if you
haven't done it, should put
the work in to do it without
AI or like with very little
AI because you mentioned
like that PMM gut, right?
That when stakeholders come
to you, like they can j- if,
if they wanted to, they could
just go build an AI model to
go do that their- themselves.
They're not asking
you to regurgitate
the output of Claude.
That's not what they're
asking you to do.
But to get, build up that
like what I think you said,
like that kind of like
PMM perspective or, you
know, that gut reaction,
it's really a confidence.
So you have to do the work
to get the confidence in
yourself and your ability.
Is that kind of like
what you're saying with
some of how you explained
like the AI kind of world
that we're in right now?
Yes, Elle, for sure.
And I think that's, that's
where, um, you know, one of
the things that I think, uh,
using, you know, something
like Claude or ChatGPT can
take away from you is, um,
if all you're doing is copy
and pasting in a bunch of
different transcripts or CRM
data or any, you know, mix
of data that you can sort of
think of, and it's giving you
an output and you're taking
that output and you-- maybe
you're copy and pasting it
into something else and then
transforming that dataset or,
um, sort of information into
another format, you're not--
you yourself are not learning
anything through that process.
And so just like, um, writing
down something by hand helps
commit it to memory, if
you're not-- if you yourself
are not wading through that
data, you are not committing
anything to memory, and then
that's gonna just hurt you as
a PMM leader when you're in
a room and you need to have
an opinion on something, and,
uh, you don't have that, you
know, quick ability to, um,
you know, prompt that answer,
then, um, they are looking
for you to have an opinion.
And if you don't have that
opinion, then, maybe worst
of all is are you gonna
continue to earn that seat at
the table that, you know, I
think we're all trying to earn
Yes.
The trust that we need
to build, that was step
one of this playbook.
So I'm so glad you
mentioned all of that.
I think, um, I agree
with that thinking.
Okay, so step one was
assessing the readiness to
kind of learn and ex- um,
basically hear you out.
Step two, I think, was to do
the voice of customer work.
What is
step three?
Yeah.
So s- step three?
is, uh, bringing stakeholders
along for the ride.
So, um, throughout that entire
process, there were, um, you
know, times where I was maybe,
um, having a conversation
with a stakeholder,
bringing them up to speed.
You know, I think no surprises
when you're trying to work
on something as important
as, like, a positioning or
messaging strategy, right?
And so, you know, again,
PMMs can often feel
like, hey, you know, I
can do all this myself.
I know how to do the research.
I can build the framework.
I can polish the doc, and
I can show everybody what
it looks like at the end.
And, uh, like, maybe, like,
hopefully, like, rub my
hands off of it and, uh, walk
off into the sunset, right?
That doesn't really
work in actuality.
And so, um, stakeholders,
uh, if they don't understand
how you got there, they're
more likely to, you know,
debate the individual
words, uh, maybe dismiss
the initial strategy that
you're even putting in
front of them to begin with.
Um, and I knew that at Hims
the messaging would only
stick if people trusted the
process, and so we needed
to make sure that we, um,
brought them along for
the ride, not just at the
beginning, but throughout.
And so the leadership
workshop was really about
understanding how the
leaders saw the business.
following up from that, we
did similar smaller sessions
with, um, s- different
subject matter experts in the
healthcare space that were
employed by Hims and made sure
that the language would hold
up with those expert buyers in
which they more often engaged
with at the very peer-to-peer
level that they operated in.
And so at the end of the day,
it wasn't sort of me coming
in and saying, you know, "I
like this messaging, and so
you should like it too." It
was more like, hey, as an
organization, like, let's
look at the evidence together.
Um, let's, you know, build
that trust not just in PMM
but with each other, that
we all trust the expertise
that we're all bringing
jointly to the table.
And especially when you have,
you know, again, executives,
um, both technical and
non-technical SMEs, um,
sales and marketing, we all
bring different perspectives
that are, you know, really
important to, to make
sure that we all agree on
before we move forward.
Yeah.
And something that I wanna
call out that I think kind
of connects step, step
two with step three is,
um, and, and all the more
reason why, like, sitting
with the data is important.
It's helpful for your
stakeholders to actually see
how you got to the conclusion
that you came to, 'cause
that's what earns trust.
And having-- Like, just going
into a Google Doc and, like,
suddenly seeing it filled
out, like, isn't something
that's necessarily going
to, like, build that trust.
Um, it, it, it actually just
reinforces you as an order
taker of, like, "You asked for
the messaging, here it is."
Not that collaborative, "Let
me bring you along for how I
got to this conclusion so that
moving forward we all agree
that this process is something
that we all wanna follow."
So I really
appreciate that note.
Okay.
Now what's next?
What's step four?
Yeah.
I think step four?
is really about, um,
okay, now we've, um, you
know, again, taken people
along for that ride.
And so now we're hopefully,
you know, at this point
starting to get further
and we're starting to
draft the messaging itself.
And so let's be intentional
with that word choice
that we end, ultimately
end up choosing, for, um,
the messaging strategy.
And this is where I think,
you know, if anyone's ever
worked on a messaging project
before, it can be highly
subjective and suddenly
before you know it, we're
wordsmithing by committee.
And so it's like, uh,
you know, what about this
word instead of this word?
Or, you know, like I, um,
someone's gonna go and, you
know, go on Webster's and look
up a synonym for a different
word or something like that.
And, um, the way out of that
is you need to ground the
word choice in the VOC and
in the alignment that you're,
that you're putting together.
know, not every word needs
to come directly from a
customer quote, but important
language should be explained
through customer evidence.
Um, you know, I think that
at Hims this mattered a
lot because again, we were
dealing with a very complex
healthcare environment and
so, we wanna make sure that we
can speak really, truly speak
the language of our buyers.
And so we had to be very
deliberate about word
choices, what words to also
avoid and like what terms,
um, specifically meant.
And so as part of the
messaging framework that we
ended up putting together,
we actually had very clear
excerpts where if we were
being very particular about
a word choice, we would
call out why we need to
be particular about that.
And like, you know, if
you were to swap maybe
these three words, that
might be okay, but this
fourth word, don't swap it.
Here's why.
Here's a spec-
specific reason.
And so, that's where we
need to be clear where
we're getting that from.
Is that VOC?
Is that other
stakeholders, you know?
And at the end of the
day, as much as I always
preach alignment, sometimes
there's also something that
I like to call, which is
like disagree and commit.
And I think that's where
as PMMs we can, should
be able to say, "Hey,
here's the objective
facts, facts on the table.
I know that, you know, you
as a product person or you as
a salesperson said we should
use this word instead, but
this word, the, this word
was chosen intentionally
grounded in A, B, C, D, and
E. We heard your suggestion.
Here's why we chose a
different direction." And I
think that's a very healthy
kind of disagree and commit
where, um, you know, if
you're showing-- if you
have the data, that's where
again, like your data and
your opinionation on those
two being the right things
can really matter in how you,
uh, work with stakeholders.
'Cause at the end of the
day, not everything's gonna
be this like really clean
commit and high five and walk
away, um, kind of movement.
Yeah, I appreciate you kind of
highlighting some of the like,
you know, sometimes you don't
agree and it's a uncomfortable
situation to be in, but just
kind of relying on the data
and the evidence is really
helpful way to move forward.
Something else that you said
that I wanna come back to
is we talked a lot about
earlier on in the conversation
that like don't confuse
copywriting with messaging,
but here your step four
is about be intentional
with word choice, right?
So I don't wanna
confuse listeners.
Something else that you said
earlier on too, which is
related, is that when you were
doing these workshops with
your stakeholders, executives
often had different probably
word choice because they
were having more peer-to-peer
conversations, not like, I
don't know, maybe practitioner
level conversations.
And I think that's
so important.
That's something that
happened a lot at some of
the lar- larger, more complex
organizations that I've worked
at, where we had to be--
we had to recognize which
persona are we talking about
here, because the worst case
scenario is when you build
messaging that was intended
for a peer-to-peer audience
of executives, and somehow
that's the narrative and
that's the messaging that
gets used for practitioners.
It's--
Been
It was a bad outcome,
let me tell you.
Yeah.
Um, so I guess what I'm coming
back to is w- earlier when
we said like, don't confuse
copywriting with messaging
is still true, but I think
what, and I'm trying to like
get clear on your step four
here, it's just being clear
with word choice of messaging
and making sure that it's like
the same language that you're
speaking to the customer.
is that, is that
accurate to kind of say
Yeah.
I-- That-- Yeah,
that's correct.
And I think where, um, to
me, like m-messaging sort
of sits compared to copy
is, you know, messaging is
your strategic truth, right?
It's the truth that you wanna
be able to tell to the market.
And I think obviously like
on, with, on the, with, with
copy, that's really like
where you wanna maybe be
able to make it a bit more
channel specific, right?
And that's where, um, you
know, there's people that are
much better experts than I
at copywriting, but I think
messaging is like, again,
where you need to seek that?
type of alignment that
you mentioned, you know.
Uh, is it practitioner
to practitioner?
Is it executive to executive?
Yeah, totally.
Um, okay, so bring us home.
Like, it, I'm guessing there's
a step five, but, uh, and
then is there anything else
to the story after that?
Yeah.
So, um, step five
is leaving room for
iteration and feedback.
And so, my engagement
with Hims was actually
less than a year.
And so, um, just get--
going through this
messaging component,
took a good, took a good
component of my time there.
And so at the end of the
day, when you're departing,
you wanna make sure that
you're leaving room for
iteration and feedback.
And so I was able to help,
guide or facilitate this
through the, um, remainder of
the time in which I was there.
But ultimately, um, this is
another place where PMMs can
suddenly, stop too early.
And so, you know, you launch
the new website or copy,
uh, you know, you write
that new sales deck based
on the messaging structure
that you've created, and
then you kind of move
on to the next project.
We didn't wanna do that.
At Hims, I certainly didn't.
And so, um, messaging is
only proven once it gets used
and, uh, we needed to make
sure that when it was used,
like, is it being effective?
And so at Hims, um, this was
really important because we
were introducing messaging
again for the first time in
an organization, maybe not
to the stakeholders, but
certainly to the organization.
And so, um, we did not
want to build a culture
that if messaging was to
be done in the future, it's
a one-and-done initiative.
And so you need to teach
them how to detect signals
from places where messaging
is supposed to create the
type of impact we expect
messaging to create.
And so is it landing in
the sales calls as we're
sort of converting that
into the pitch deck, right?
Are we-- you know, is a,
a senior leader maybe when
they're giving a keynote at
like a healthcare convention
or, or, or a presentation, is
that landing in the right way,
you know, out in the audience?
And so how can we pick up
on some of those maybe like,
um, harder to pick up, like
more, less tangible cues.
And then obviously when
it comes to like more
quantitative signals,
there's where, you know,
things like, um, are they
spending more time on page?
You know, are they like
reading the copy actually?
Um, you know, if we're
building white papers
and the white papers are,
leveraging more of that
messaging structure, are
we actually maybe getting
better download rates because
we're hitting on pain points
that are true to the folks
that are encountering, um,
that content moving forward?
And so, um, really making
sure that we're building a
culture in which, you know,
me- uh, PMMs won't be able
to see all the signals as
they're coming in live.
We rely on so many different
stakeholders to feed
that feedback back to us.
And so, um, what does that?
look like and how do we let
people know that this is
just the first step, we're
gonna continue to iterate
and here's how the iteration
process ultimately works.
Yeah.
I've always heard and even
said myself, messaging
is a living document.
It's always changing
and growing.
so, I wanna fast-forward
now in your career.
You're at Fleetio now.
What-- How does this
playbook show up in Fleetio?
And I know you
have a ton of…
We've already talked a
ton about AI as well.
So help contextualize
some of this for us.
Like, what does it look like
in practice now in a totally
different setting, like, no
longer this, like, complex
healthcare organization?
Yeah.
So, um, I think at when
it comes to like, well,
certainly the VOC collection
days, you know, manually
pouring over CRM fields
is, is, you know, for the
most part, it's, it's over.
I think that's again,
where like AI does a really
great job at turning, uh,
unstructured data into
structured insights that
you could use in a variety
of formats and where, you
know, like tools like Gong
and their, um, AI Studio
and other conversational
intelligence tools can just
dramatically accelerate
the sort of analysis that,
Elle, to your point, like
could take you months,
um, back, you know, Back
before AI existed and, uh,
Back in my day
Yeah.
Back, yeah.
Maybe we're dating ourselves
a little bit here, but, um,
I, I was trying not to go in
that direction, but, and yeah.
And I would also even say
that like where we used to
previously be wholly reliant
on very perfect CRM hygiene in
terms of like, hey, you know,
when we need to understand
that the product won for
this reason and lost for this
reason, like here's all of our
pick lists, and the pick list
needs to be granular enough.
Now you can, um, you know,
pull that same information
from, uh, a Gong transcript
with some good detection.
You can, you know, um, be able
to do the same thing by even
taking the unstructured data
that is a seller's like won or
lost notes or activity notes
throughout an opportunity
in their CRM and be able to
like tell-- better understand
that story without, you know,
someone spending 15 minutes
polishing that type of data.
And so, that's the one piece
that I think has changed
the most in that playbook.
But then not only how do you
take that VOC, but then when
you're writing the messaging
in, in step five, when I was
talking about that iterative
feedback loop, that's also
where I think, um, you know,
the times are changing.
And so AI's been able to
really step in and, and,
and add I think a bit more
directionality or at least,
maybe not causation, but
strong correlative ties
between I think like what
a PMM does and the sort of
impact that it might have
out there in the field.
And so, um, at Fleetio, one
thing that we are um, looking
at right now is, um, you
know, again, if you have that
sort of like foundational
messaging and again, like
enforced by that more scaled
sort of way of gathering VOC.
in your messaging, you can
also like be a lot more
specific because you spend
less time in the CRM data,
you can spend more time
in the different slices
of what that messaging
can ultimately look like.
And so for us, um, when we're
dealing with a technical
buyer, there's obviously
a lot of different sales
plays in terms of like
if they're wanting to use
our o- our API or they're
wanting to use an integration
with us, or they're, you
know, looking at any, using
any of the sort of data
interoperability features that
are available, not just in
Fleio, but across the board.
and you know, let's say your
seller's not super technical
and they shouldn't actually
need to know the 100, uh,
the, the, the five-foot view.
They sh- it's okay for them
to primarily just understand
the, maybe the 20-foot view.
there is some, there is
more we can do now with
AI around like coaching of
proactive beha- like the
type of proactive behaviors
that we ultimately wanna see.
And so I think that's where
for us, I mentioned when it
came to HIMSS, one of the
signals that we would look
at quant, uh, qualitatively
was, you know, like if a, if
a rep is using the messaging,
how is the, uh, buyer
reacting to that messaging?
And you might be able to
like, you know, pull up a
Gong transcript to see that.
Going one level further now,
what you can do is not only
how are they reacting to that,
but if, if they maybe had a
negative reaction to that,
is that because there was
something wrong with what the
seller had said, and how can
you coach that immediately?
And so that's where I
think A- AI through being
able to quickly crawl a
transcript, understand where
that objection was maybe
handled incorrectly, and
then surfacing the right
coaching moment based on
here's actually like in
the messaging, the type
of direction we should
have pointed the, to that,
them to one layer deeper.
Um, you can actually have
that rep go out, go back out
and say, "Hey, um, realized
last, last week or yesterday
I didn't, um, answer that
question you had as, as, you
know, as well as I should
have. And so here's a way,
here's, um, some information
that I do wanna leave you
with and, uh, and, and you
can feel free to ask me
any more questions, you
know, that you might have."
And so it allows for that
sort of really great,
proactivity where you don't
need to let that opportunity
go all the way to a close
before you realize, "Oh,
shoot, I messed up that, you
know, my talk track there."
There's a bit more of that
proactivity of like, "Well,
maybe that wasn't so great.
Here's how I can fix it."
And not only does that help
that opportunity, but it
al- also helps, um, the
seller in that moment, you
know, be coached that, that
little bit better as well.
Yeah.
So these messaging systems
that you're building are so
much-- They can now go way
beyond just building and
establishing the messaging or
iterating on the messaging,
but also going into, like, the
enablement of the messaging.
So I love that.
Okay, this is my last question
for you on this topic.
Um, what's one piece of
advice you have for a PMM
who's in the thick of it?
They're trying to create,
you know, establish that
foundational messaging.
What's-- If you had
to pick one thing for
them to walk away with,
what, what should it be?
I think the first, um, the
hardest thing for me that I
always try to remember anytime
I'm getting into any sort of
exercise similar to what we
covered today is that, um,
messaging is hard because
it's both an art and a science
and, and that-- and because
people, you know, words
matter a lot to people, right?
We're a very communicative
society, and that, you
know, that really matters
at the end of the day.
And so, just to be able to
maybe calm yourself down
and in the middle of a
heated moment when someone's
debating messaging with you,
they're, they're probably
just not-- They're, they
may not be reacting to
your messaging specifically
or to your phrasing or
word choice specifically.
What they can sometimes
be reacting to is, um, the
strategy behind it And I think
that, like we as PMMs, we're
very prideful people, right?
We, we wanna be?
involved in the strategy.
We wanna earn our
seat at the table.
But a strategy is something
that's ultimately defined
by a number of stakeholders,
and hopefully, you know,
we and any listener here
is part of that group.
But it is a group activity
to create a strategy
that as an organization
you can commit to.
And so a lot of the times
when a mes- when what is
messaging, if not strategy on
a page, and so if there's a
disagreement around messaging,
sometimes it's good to just
take a step back and take
a breath and go, "Okay, is
this a messaging problem or
is it a strategy problem?"
If I can divorce those two
in my mind, I can understand
what it is that I need to
do next, whether, whether
that is like, hey, do we
actually need to get, take
a step back and do more
strategic alignment, or is it
actually a messaging problem?
In which case, if it is a
messaging problem, I do know
how to solve it by, you know,
again, digging back into that
VOC, having more conversations
and, you know, having a
grounded, um, data-backed
kind of opinionation again
as a product marketer.
I love that.
And it's funny that it, it
feels like, um, the one piece
of advice is really anchored
in a relationship driven, um,
you know, the stakeholder-
with the stakeholders.
So, and it's so true, right?
So I really, um,
appreciate that note.
This was such a
powerful case study.
I'm so glad that, you know,
you were so generous to
walk through it with us.
All right, so now
it's time for the next
segment of our show.
This is the
messaging critique.
So Kevin, this is where you
and I as marketing experts
get to analyze real world
messaging, and the fun
part is you get to pick the
company that we analyze.
Um, so let me throw out
some quick ground rules.
Um, first, you're gonna
tell me something, after
you reveal the company,
of course, you're gonna
say something that you're
loving about the messaging,
something that stood out
to you in a positive way.
Then you're gonna talk through
something you wish the PMM
would've done differently,
and then lastly, we'll
just do a quick brainstorm
iterating on how that PMM can
take it to the next level.
So without further ado,
please reveal the company
that we'll be looking at today
Yeah.
So I'm gonna, I think,
take this a different
direction than some of your
other guests in the past.
So I'll pick a, um,
a physical device.
Uh, and so for those of you
who are familiar with, uh,
Brick, it's a, uh, physical
sort of square device and
it, um, it essentially
helps you lock your phone
down so you stay, stay
more present in the moment.
Um, you know, which I
need to sometimes when
I was gonna say this should be
a required product for, like,
every American household.
Okay, so it's, um,
getbrick.com is the, the
website for anyone who wants
to kind of follow along.
So okay, walk us through it.
Like, tell us about the
messaging and, like,
what stood out to you
Yeah.
So I think what really stuck
out to me, uh, was that-- So
first of all, they, I think
they lead a lot with, yes,
like a very generic statement
at times, and that maybe is
part of my critique if we're
gonna get there later on.
But, um, really
take your time back.
But in terms of like how
they message around maybe
that key position is,
um, not through actually
using your phone more.
And so right away they sort
of call out the competitors
in the space, which are
like these, uh, other apps
that sort of will help you
limit your screen time by
downloading yet another
app in which you can set
that time restriction.
Um, with Brick, um, they
make that more of a f- uh,
that action more physical.
So the value isn't just in
blocking apps, it's actually
from removing, um, that moment
of negotiation with yourself
where you're like, "Oh, I'm
gonna extend my, you know,
my limit 15 more minutes."
You're actually locking down
that entire phone and, um,
it makes it easier, at least
maybe now I'm speaking purely,
uh, anecdotally about myself.
It makes it easier for
you to go, "Okay, well my
phone's locked down. I'm just
gonna put it in that drawer
and I'm gonna come back to
it like after my kids are
asleep," or, you know, like,
um, after I'm spending, you
know, more time doing maybe
what I should be doing,
um, at the end of the day.
All right, so let's
get a little bit into
the critique now.
You, you gave us kind
of like a tease of it
with a generic piece.
Go a little deeper.
Tell us more
Yeah.
So yeah, I think, like I
said, the, the-- I think the
whole adage of like helping
keep time is still a little
bit of a generic keyword.
I think, uh, what really
helps Brick differentiate
themselves and, you know, why
I ended up purchasing a couple
for us was, um, they're not
really just solving, I think,
like a screen time problem.
They're ultimately solving
like a willpower problem.
And so maybe, again, speaking
for myself as I guess now
calling myself someone with
weak willpower, uh, once you
sort of lock down that phone,
uh, and it's truly been, I
guess, bricked as the way
that they might wanna, wanna
call it, You know, I think
that it reestablishes the
willpower that you may not
have had previously, right?
So, you know, I know I can't
access this and so-- And
there's gonna be not just one
step of extending screen time,
but, um, a, a physical step of
repairing it with the brick.
A f- another physical step
of then going into my phone
and hitting, "Yeah, I do
wanna get unlocked." It's
that multi-step process that
I think is, uh, such a strong
factor and, uh, also like
maybe strategically where you
have that brick in your house.
And so if you have your brick
like right when you walk
through the front door, are
you really gonna wanna shame
yourself by walking back to
the front door to, you know,
to unbrick it again when you,
when you have the urge to, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So it-- what I'm hearing
is kind of like a behavior
change, and it feels like
they're kind of like anchoring
around time-saving, which
is I feel like a lot of
PMMs fall back on that.
Um, I'm not gonna lie,
I have in my career.
Um, but they have so much
more opportunity here
that they could lean into.
So help us iterate
a little bit.
H-how would you take
this to the next level?
Yeah.
I think I'd, um, maybe like
build off those moments
that I just spoke about.
So like you're walking
through the door, you know.
I mean, I'm not walking
through many front doors these
days because I work from home.
But you're walking f-
you know, you're walking
through the front door.
You're-- Maybe
you're off work.
And so, uh, I think that
there's a lot more that they
can do to take it to the
next level to really like
ground it in, um, the daily
actions in which you want
to, um, unplug and you want
to leave that device behind.
And so like when you get home,
like brick, brick when you
get home, you know, maybe you
want to brick before dinner,
before, you know, when you
want the fullest attention
of, uh-- When your kids want
the fullest attention of you,
which, you know, like again,
speaking from experience,
that's why we're doing that.
And so I think it makes
it feel less like, a
productivity hack or, you
know, something that's like
y- something you feel like
you are guilting yourself
into doing and like a bit
more of a smaller ritual for
protecting that family time.
So, you know, I'm walking
through the front door and,
you know, you brick when you
get home and, and that's just
what you do as a family, so.
I love that.
Like, and again, like
it's coming back to
like establishing like
positive behaviors.
So, really interesting.
So all right, shout out to
any Brick PMMs out there.
You've got some fans,
and we have some ideas
for you to try out.
Check it out.
All right, so Kevin, one
thing that I always like
to make space for on this
podcast is a moment of, uh,
gratitude because as product
marketers, we never get to
the next step in our career
without learning from others.
So this is just a genuine
thank you for taking the time
to prepare for this episode
and then of course come on
and have the generosity to
go deep into your case study
and, um, share your expertise.
Thank you so much.
Um, and then also I'd
like to turn it around
and give you the chance
to give some shout-outs
to some PMMs who have
brought you to this moment.
Yeah.
I guess in a, in a
full circle moment, I
will give a shout-out
to my friend Jonathan
Pipik from Blue Manta.
Uh, I know he gave me a
shout-out when, uh, he
joined Your Applied, and
so I'll return the favor.
Jonathan is just like
one of the most genuine
PMMs that I've ever met.
I think
He's so kind, so he's a
powerhouse PMM and just
so generous with his
And he's someone that you
can just talk shop with all
day, and I think that, like,
he was maybe like the first
PMM that I feel like became
a true friend that I've never
actually worked with before.
And I think that's like
a good testament to the
type of connections that
he's, I think, built
with the community.
So definitely Jonathan, you
know, this one's for you.
Shout-out Jonathan.
I think, uh, the other
two that maybe I'll just
shout out really quickly
are, Study and Saurabh.
These are two PMMs that
I worked with back when
I was at Hootsuite.
I think we were all, you
know-- I think that you
often think back fondly
to like the earliest
PMM days that you have.
And for me, like it was
getting in the, you know,
being in the weeds with them
and getting some stuff done.
And so, Yeah
shout-out to them in terms
of like just how we've, uh,
I think continued to grow
and push each other and stay
close, I think, through, um,
the careers that we all, you
know, have on this winding
road that's product marketing.
I love that.
I love that.
Shout out to PMM peers.
Thank you, friends.
Um, all right.
Well, thank you
so much, Kevin.
I really appreciate that.
I swear this is my
last question for you.
Where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it best to find
you on LinkedIn?
Yeah, LinkedIn is the best.
Um, I am also, uh, a mentor
for both the Product Marketing
Alliance as well as ADP List.
And so, I li- love giving
back to the community.
I think that actually
sometimes I learn more
about, um, when I'm in the
heat of a conversation with
somebody else that also
loves product marketing and
love the way that I've been
able to meet other PMMs
through that mentorship
program on both sides.
And so, um, you can find
me, yeah, again, LinkedIn?
ADP List, or the, uh, PMA
mentorship group as well.
Oh, that's so kind.
I love the mentorship.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Um, again, Kevin,
thanks so much.
This has been awesome.
And hey, PMM listeners, if you
liked this episode, uh, please
share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful if
you would leave us a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.