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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Are you looking to reset your relationship with alcohol? Look no further than our self paced seven day reset program. In just one week, you'll gain the tools and support you need to kickstart your journey to a healthier, more balanced lifestyle.
[00:00:15] Head over to sistersinsobriety. substack. com . [00:01:00] Welcome to Sisters in Sobriety, and today we are honored to have a very special guest, Valerie Mason John, also known as Vimala Sara. Valerie is an author, a public speaker, whose work has profoundly impacted the field of addiction in and recovery. They're the author of Eight Step Recovery, a program that combines Buddhist teachings with practical strategies for overcoming addiction, as well as Detox Your Heart, where they share a series of grounded meditations.
[00:01:45] Sonia: And now the first aid kit for the mind, outbreaking the cycle of habitual triggers. And you all know how much we love to talk about triggers. And Vimalasara's journey from personal struggle to empowerment and leadership is nothing short [00:02:00] of Inspiring. Their unique approach to addiction emphasizes mindfulness, compassion, and a holistic and deeply transformative path to recovery.
[00:02:10] Vimalasara: So join us today as we delve into the Melissa's incredible story, exploring their groundbreaking methodologies and draw inspiration from their unwavering commitment to help others heal and thrive. This is an episode you will not want to miss. Welcome, Vimalisara. Hi, thank you. Thank you for that intro, Sonia. I'm very happy to be
[00:02:33] Vimalasara: here. so excited to have you. So, we can get started. Can you share a little bit about your early life and what led you to begin your recovery journey? Oh, my early life, I think. Gosh. Yeah, I think, my whole life has really been about, You know, working with habitual addictive behaviours, I was thinking that the, I think the first thing I most probably was addicted to was sugar. [00:03:00] I can always remember, um, I, I grew up in a, in an orphanage and, you know, and I went, don't feel sorry for me.
[00:03:06] Vimalasara: I always feel more sorry for people who grew up with their parents. Okay, so.
[00:03:11] Sonia: So true.
[00:03:12] Vimalasara: Yeah, exactly.
[00:03:14] Sonia: sorry for me.
[00:03:15] Vimalasara: Yes, exactly. Anyway, we used to get pocket money and on Saturdays and so we would come out of the village, the orphanage's village, go over to the nearest shop, buy all these sweets and just binge on them in the next kind of 12 hours.
[00:03:31] Vimalasara: And definitely, you know, sugar. I mean, that, that is the one, I think the last one that I really have to work with. So that real. addiction to, to sugar. And then I got addicted to, um, shoe cleaner, shoe cleaner, sniffing. So, you know, I'm that kind of generation in England who were into Evo stick, glue sniffing.
[00:03:55] Vimalasara: I never got into glue sniffing because I could see my friends doing really crazy [00:04:00] things. So I was, I, there was a bit of a sensible boner, but he was like, no, that's too crazy. You know, they thought there was evil Knievel, they could jump off buildings and that kind of stuff. So, um, yeah. And I, I would say actually it's interesting that I talk about sugar because I would say that my core, my, my core addiction. It's, it's food. You know, that's the thing that I, I still work with. You know, I had disordered eating. I was diagnosed as an, as an extreme chronic bulimic anorectic. Fortunately, you know, that, it's in remission, let's just say, it's always very easy to say past, past me, but it is in remission and something that I have to work with.
[00:04:44] Vimalasara: And of course, you know, I had to give myself respite. I was into. Cocaine, champagne, blah, blah, blah. But those were the easy things to let go of. Cigarette smoking, champagne, cocaine. Food, having to [00:05:00] work with food. It's a life, it's a lifelong, long journey because it's something that I have to come into relationship with.
[00:05:06] Vimalasara: It's not something I can say, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna touch that again. You know, yeah. Mmm,
[00:05:14] Sonia: It's not something you can eliminate. I um, just recently started realizing that when I was growing up and my parents would fight, I would go into the kitchen and there, we drank a lot of tea growing up and there was like a little sugar pot and I would eat teaspoons of sugar, I think as a way to calm myself down.
[00:05:35] Sonia: And so, what was the turning point that made you decide to seek recovery and how did you take those first steps?
[00:05:41] Vimalasara: those steps, it's a really good question. I think I write about it in my book, Detox Your Heart, and, uh, I got to a point where I could really see that I was, damaging my brain, snorting too much. And I, I really, [00:06:00] I could really feel that the composition of my brain was changing. And, um, I, I just knew I needed to do something different. And the joke of it was, is, well, because I had studied psychology, I knew that the brain could develop new areas. So I thought, okay, I will learn a language. I'm still trying to learn Spanish, learn a language. And I also started doing headstands. But then, you know, I put my neck out and whatever, so it was like, okay, this isn't great.
[00:06:35] Vimalasara: But that was, that was really the beginning of my journey. And then I can remember having a job. I had this job where women chose to go to rehab instead of prison. And Their crimes had been done under the influence of alcohol or drugs. And so me and a co facilitator would do the anger management program, which was [00:07:00] over, you know, several months.
[00:07:02] Vimalasara: And I can remember we were working on the Petrasca cycle of change, which was, the cycle of change which was developed to stop cigarette smoking, but it was used for other things. And I always remember two things. I remember Me and my colleague, being outside and actually my colleague, I, I, I wasn't smoking and I, I stopped smoking in my early twenties, but I can remember thinking, Oh, we're no different from these women. And then one of the women said, it's not possible to stop drinking. And I remember thinking. I don't know whether it's possible or not. Let me stop drinking. And I stopped drinking because I just thought, you know, I couldn't answer that. It was like, and I needed to know, so I stopped drinking. And, um, I stopped drinking and, and I let go of drugs.
[00:07:59] Vimalasara: I thought [00:08:00] I'd experiment of drugs and see what that would be like for a year. And I didn't really look back. And then with the food, which was The hardest and which has been the journey is I had had a one woman show. So, you know, I've had all these different careers. I was a performance artist for a while, and I can remember.
[00:08:21] Vimalasara: Being in Italy, visiting friends, and just thinking I'm not going to be able to get through this because the purging really has an impact on your throat. And I got back home and I was aware, like, all, there was posters all over the tube, you know, advertising my show, it was all on the tube, and it was like, I can't do this.
[00:08:42] Vimalasara: And I can remember being in my bed. And actually thinking, I can't this, I can't do this. And there was this voice saying, yes, you can. And I was like, how? And they just said, just stop. And that was it. Just, just, just stop. [00:09:00] And I stopped. And then, again, another time, I can remember thinking, again, waking up in my bed thinking, oh my God.
[00:09:09] Vimalasara: My biggest addiction is just thinking, thinking. But just coming back to that stopping of the disordered eating. It's been a journey. It's not like it's been a clean stop You know, there have been slips and Relapses, you know, I kind of stopped for the first year First two years and then it was like, oh just once a year So once a year, I would have this slip, you know once a year and put myself back on track, you know, andnow it's really, I have these I've, I've just stopped my obsessive, uh, attachment to raw cashew nuts.
[00:09:51] Vimalasara: So it'd be like, it was chewing gum, and then I'd let go of the chewing gum, and then it would be seaweed, and then let go of the seaweed, and then it [00:10:00] would be nuts, and whatever. So I'm still really working with it, and actually what's really interesting is, in, in that, I did some work to stop, but what I've realised is, it's like, when am I gonna keep on, when Cutting out all the things that I have, uh, an obsessive attachment to.
[00:10:20] Vimalasara: And I realised, like, part of that stopping has to be stopping at one. You know,
[00:10:25] Vimalasara: So there were certain foods, like sugars, I just don't do. It, it, it's, there's just no way I can beat sugar. But it's like every time, oh, I'm not gonna have this, I'm not gonna have that. Actually, I have to learn to stop at one.
[00:10:37] Vimalasara: One is enough. If one helping's enough, do I need to go back? So that's my practice at the moment, is just stopping at one, yeah.
[00:10:46] Sonia: yeah, that's such an interesting approach in general to. to recovery and things that you have to come in contact with every day. so you stop drinking, you're, you know, giving [00:11:00] yourself a reprieve once a year. When, when you were in early recovery, were there any people or programs that were influential to
[00:11:08] Sonia: you?
[00:11:09] Vimalasara: That's a really great question, you know. Um, I actually had specialised Treatment, and that was a real turning point. I can remember, I think, specialised treatment for disordered eating. And I remember coming towards the end of it, and this, this was just before I went to Italy. I had a, I had a couple of lovers in Italy at the time.
[00:11:33] Vimalasara: And I remember thinking, if this doesn't work, what will work? And I had to be on my own to use the tools. So it was like actually to take myself out of therapy, out of everything, and to really use the tools. So that was one thing that really helped. The second thing that really helped, I always say that I got my recovery in the rooms of Buddhism, in the rooms of meditation. So that was definitely, [00:12:00] uh, really, uh, part of my recovery program. I did try, uh, 12 steps, you know, I did. Try going to, um, well, I think to AA, Overeaters Anonymous, going to AA. Was, I mean alcohol wasn't my thing. I knew I had to, alcohol was, was, was what you call a gateway, gateway drug. If I drank alcohol it would be in the sugar, so I knew I had to let go of that.
[00:12:27] Vimalasara: But you know, you go into the rooms of AA and there'd be all this food. You know, back in the day, there'd be all this food, so it's like, well I can't go there. And then also, as well, when I was living in England, Back in the day, they were predominantly white and it was like, just didn't feel comfortable.
[00:12:46] Vimalasara: And then it would be like, F. A. I think, food addiction, F. A. that was like, you couldn't share until you had like 40 days or so many days abstinence. [00:13:00] And you know, part of the disease of disordered eating is, is that you stop talking. And you talk and you cry through the food. So I just knew intrinsically, that wasn't gonna work, you know. And then the final thing that I would say is, I can remember, um, when, Really back, you know, being bulimic and going to the doctors, I would have been about 18 or, or so. And the doctors writing me a prescription to take pills. I remember thinking, how's that going to work? I don't keep anything down, do you know what I mean?
[00:13:37] Vimalasara: That's not going to work. But maybe I would have got my recovery a lot sooner if I had taken medication. Who knows?
[00:13:45] Sonia: Who knows? Yeah. And so I would love to talk more about your, your Buddhist practice and in what ways has your Buddhist practice shaped your approach to addiction and recovery?
[00:13:58] Vimalasara: You know, I [00:14:00] think, um, to take it out of the context of Buddhism's meditation, it was meditation that was my raft and I think it was because meditation, when I started meditating, I started having feelings and emotions of happiness. And I, I was at a point in, in, in my life. I just got back from I'd been working as an international correspondent out in Australia. And I was like 27 and I just got back and I was at my lowest, lowest point. And, And I knew that I had to come back to England then to do the work, but yet it was like meditation. I could feel high, I could feel, have these altered states, I'd have these bliss moments of bliss [00:15:00] that I'd never really had, you know, apart from when I was a lot younger on the dance floor, you know, that was, dance was one of the things that really helped to save my life.
[00:15:11] Vimalasara: So, it was like, I had these These moments of peace and happiness through meditation and going on meditation retreats. And really that was the beginning. I mean, often what would happen is I would come off the retreats and then I would just binge, you know, because nobody would tell you like, integration, be aware of when you leave the retreats.
[00:15:37] Vimalasara: But, there was something about Meditation that really opened up my heart and also the practice of loving kindness, of learning to love myself. And then if I talk about Buddhism, there was a teaching, two teachings, that was so critical to me. And [00:16:00] the first teaching, um, is the Four Noble Truths. And the first truth is that there is suffering.
[00:16:08] Vimalasara: And when I read that, I was like, Oh my God, I'm normal. Because I thought there was something wrong with me, because I suffered and struggled so much. It was like, what's wrong with me? Why do I suffer and struggle so much? So I thought something was wrong with me. And of course, you know how it is, we think we're the only one who's struggling and suffering.
[00:16:29] Vimalasara: And actually, this teacher was telling me, actually, I'm normal. Suffering was part of the human condition. So just, it was like overnight of like, Oh, nothing's wrong with me. You know, that I had to really look at what happened to me. That's the journey. But it was like, nothing's wrong with me. And actually, many people are struggling.
[00:16:52] Vimalasara: So that was really critical. And then of course, it was like the second truth. Seeing how we create extra [00:17:00] suffering in our lives, cause of suffering, craving, and I could really see how I created extra suffering in my life. So those, two truths were so critical for me. And of course it goes on.
[00:17:13] Vimalasara: There's a path that leads away and then there is an end of suffering. um, the other teaching was this teaching of the centrality of going for refuge. And that is Going for refuge. What do we go for refuge to? What do we place at the centre of our lives? And I could see I was going to refuge to food, I was going to refuge to drugs, I was going to refuge to alcohol.
[00:17:41] Vimalasara: And those were the things that I was placing at the centre of my life, realising if they're at the centre of my life, that's going to impact my whole life. And so that teaching of, oh, this is what, this is what I'm running to, to protect me to whatever and actually this is really impacting my [00:18:00] life and how can I begin to put freedom at the center of my life you know, Buddhism is about freedom how can I put the teachings that point to freedom at the center of my life?
[00:18:12] Vimalasara: How can I put the spiritual community that has discovered freedom at the center? So those were the teachings which was very much mine.
[00:18:25] Sonia: That's incredible. Well, actually, speaking of the idea of freedom, you talk a little bit about letting go. And what does letting go mean to you in the context of recovery?
[00:18:39] Vimalasara: I was talking about this the, the, the other day with, with a friend talking about letting go and, you know, this thing of stop clinging, stop grasping. I've really got to the point that letting go is stopping. It really is, um, stopping. [00:19:00] There's a, there's a teaching in Buddhism, Angulimala, and I think it's a really good teaching for those of us who have.
[00:19:08] Vimalasara: Addictions because often We, what keeps us still sick is, is that, you know, in, in, in the big book, The Wreckage of Our Past, how can we come to terms with the wreckage of our past? And, and I won't go through the whole story, but Angulimala means the garlanded one. He wore 999 fingers around his neck. He killed 999 people.
[00:19:31] Vimalasara: And he had one more person he needed to kill. So just really fast tracking the story is that he, he sees his 1, 000th person and it's like he's telling this person to stop because he wants to kill him and the person's walking faster and Angemüller is trying to keep up and the person keeps on walking faster and Angemüller is trying to catch up and he's saying stop stop and the person turns around and says Angemüller I have [00:20:00] stopped it's you who needs to stop and it was the Buddha.
[00:20:05] Vimalasara: It was a Buddha who said, I have stopped, and it's you who needs to stop. And then, you know, the great thing is Angi Moola does actually become enlightened. He does, obviously, you know, people are still angry with him for what he's done. But the reality is stopping that the Buddha had stopped. You know, like in the Eighth Step Recovery Book, talk about the Buddha being in recovery.
[00:20:28] Vimalasara: The Buddha had stopped. We need to stop. There's a whole, uh, Teaching called the Patakatha Samasutta, which is five ways to work with distracting thoughts. Because you know those thoughts can get us into that vicious cycle of addiction. And again, that last one, well there's two which really, I think I talk about it in the new book actually.
[00:20:49] Vimalasara: Um, and the last one is just crush it, just stop, just, just stop. And I can remember, you know, it was my 50th [00:21:00] birthday. And I really wanted somebody. To come. And end. You know, I was at the Buddhist center and I was leading this ritual which was in call and response and I got so obsessed with this Person hasn't come for me, poor me.
[00:21:15] Vimalasara: Why haven't they come for me? And suddenly I'm trying to do this thing in call and response and my mind is getting Plagued by these thoughts and in my head I said stop and something shattered It calmed down and I was able to do this ritual. So for me, there was something in that letting go of stopping.
[00:21:36] Vimalasara: And what we have to realize is, is that some people don't want to stop. And we have to acknowledge that. That there are some people who really do not want to stop. You know, as my partner says, who's a big book, big book thumper, always says, you know, when, it's not a relapse, when people pick up. They can put it back down in the next moment.
[00:21:59] Sonia: Yes.[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Vimalasara: And this was something that I had to, in my recovery, because I was a chronic relapser. And I realized that in the moment of me picking up, I was choosing my addictive behavior over the, my recovery. You know, I chose, later, oh, I can't be bothered. Stop, I can't be bothered.
[00:22:22] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:22:24] Vimalasara: So this, it takes energy to stop, and we know that there's this time, you know, there's, do we pick up, there's about 15, 20 minutes where we're like that magnetic pull, like, you know, we're, we're trying to, and, and many of us fall, we, we fall before we get to that finish line of the 20 minute, 20 minutes of that,
[00:22:46] Vimalasara: And if we could ride that 20 minutes,
[00:22:49] Vimalasara: we'll get to the finish line. And it goes.
[00:22:52] Sonia: Are you looking to reset your relationship with alcohol? Look no further than our self paced seven day reset [00:23:00] program. In just one week, you'll gain the tools and support you need to kickstart your journey to a healthier, more balanced lifestyle.
[00:23:08] Our program includes daily audio, helpful exercises, and guided reflections. And best of all, it's on your time. Head over to sistersinsobriety. substack. com and let's take that first step together towards a better you.
[00:23:21] Sonia: I know, I always talk about the 20 minutes. so you're, you're talking about stopping the thought, like disengaging. What is the difference between that and what you've called spiritual bypassing? And how can we avoid that?
[00:23:39] Sonia: So the difference between avoiding and stopping.
[00:23:42] Vimalasara: yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think, you know, in the rooms of 12 steps, we refer to, um, the willing alcoholism, the dry drunk. Or, knuckling it, and those are the people who [00:24:00] have actually, I would say, been spiritually bypassing. It's like they've let go of the alcohol, which is fantastic, and have not done the work that's actually caused it.
[00:24:12] Vimalasara: So, again, the spiritual bypassing, actually, it was something that a psychologist named, I can't think of his name at the moment, who named the spiritual bypassing, Buddha Stewart. It's like Oh, it's all about being happy, all about, you know, can we be happy, but actually have we done that in a, in a work and it is work to be done.
[00:24:34] Vimalasara: And of course, some people are too scared to do the work because they think if they do that in a work, will they relapse again? You know, and it's interesting, you know, there's some people who can be in recovery, being, be in recovery for 20, 30 years and they relapse and why they relapse because they haven't done that in a work.
[00:24:55] Vimalasara: So that, so what we're bypassing is, is a [00:25:00] lot of the, the woundedness, we're bypassing a lot of the, the harm that was done to us as young people. You know, we're, we're bypassing the fact of when we get activated that we're not really looking at that. So we can really, it's possible to free ourselves from our childhood conditioning.
[00:25:21] Vimalasara: It really, really is possible and I would say the reason why, um, I am in recovery and the reason why I do have abstinence of so many things in my life is because I have stepped out of my childhood conditioning. I've stepped out of my adolescence conditioning and that is by doing the work, by doing that inner work.
[00:25:47] Vimalasara: Can you talk to us a little bit about how that ties into the idea of self It's interesting,
[00:25:56] Vimalasara: I do talk in terms of self, yeah, and that [00:26:00] there is a self. What is the self? The self are, are all the identities that we're attached to, okay? So, you know, like. We, we, we can be attached to the addicted self, some people, and that, that creates a self.
[00:26:16] Vimalasara: We're attached to the, you know, we can, race, gender, parent, all those can be the self, and what creates a self are the stories around the self. You know, we have this story of who we are, we, and that story is fixed, that, that is the self, and that's really coming from a, a, a Buddhist perspective, because in a Buddhist perspective, we talk about fixed self, no self, and how we fix the self, and when we fix the self, that means we hold on to all the stories, and if we hold on to all those stories, We're not going to be able to shift and part of the work is letting go of the stories
[00:26:59] Sonia: [00:27:00] we talked about the meditation rooms. what is the distinction for you between mindfulness and meditation?
[00:27:07] Vimalasara: Oh Yeah Yes Well meditation is an aspect of mindfulness So, you know, um, if we're practicing mindfulness, meditation is going to be part of, um, part of mindfulness. And mindfulness really is about becoming more aware. Becoming more aware and not just aware of, um, of what we do often, you know, people say, be mindful, be, be mindful, walking, be mindful, you know, it's, mindfulness is about becoming mindful of ethics.
[00:27:48] Vimalasara: Yeah. So, it's really, if we're, we're, we're practicing mindfulness, how we can become more ethical. But if we think of the four foundations of mindfulness, then [00:28:00] there is mindfulness of the body. There's mindfulness of thoughts. There's mindfulness of, of perceptions and cognitions and all the stories.
[00:28:09] Vimalasara: And then there is mindfulness of what we call the dharmas of, of aging, sickness, and death, you know. And so there is a whole meditation practice, one called the Anapanasati, which has 16 stages for tetras, and we learn to become We learn to breathe and become more mindful through the experience of the body and then more, you know, through the experience of feelings and sensations and through the body and through the the dharmas of aging sickness and death and Meditation can help us to become more mindful and then let's talk about meditation because meditation isn't about sitting cross legged You know, with your hands in a beautiful shape, you know.
[00:28:57] Vimalasara: We, you, the, the Buddha [00:29:00] taught that meditation is everything we do. Sitting, standing, walking, lying. Meditation is about having a crap in the morning. Meditation is about having a cup of coffee in the morning. Meditation is about how we leave our space. So, you know, Meditation is inextricably linked with mindfulness because mindfulness is about Becoming more aware and meditation helps us to become more aware and so in a way, people think, oh, you know, I can't sit still or whatever.
[00:29:35] Vimalasara: Well, you can do meditation walking, you can do meditation cleaning your teeth. So it's just about becoming more aware, slowing down and becoming more aware. of what is happening in your experience moment by moment by moment.
[00:29:51] Sonia: Yeah. And then, I'd love to talk about the stinking thinking. So when I was reading your book,the idea of stinking thinking, really [00:30:00] resonated with me. I think my, my, life's work for myself is work on my stinking thinking. and it did, it took, it took a while, of being sober to see it clearly.
[00:30:13] Sonia: But how did you realize that your biggest addiction was your thinking?
[00:30:17] Vimalasara: Yeah. Um, thank you. I think as I was saying earlier, literally, Sonia, literally, I, I think like I had stepped, um, onto the path of recovery. The last thing was, Working with a disordered eating and I can remember must have been in the, in, in the second year and I literally remember sitting bolt up in my bed thinking, Oh my God, my biggest addiction is my stinking thinking.
[00:30:49] Vimalasara: It was that crystal clear and it was almost like I was at the beginning of my recovery process. And in a way I would say like [00:31:00] that. First year of letting go of that disordered eating because by that time I wasn't drinking alcohol I wasn't taking drugs. And so if you think people might be thinking how long ago was that?
[00:31:15] Vimalasara: So it's it's like about 20 to22 years of all three of all longer with the alcohol and drugs and I I'd say that first year when I stopped the disordered eating, I was it was like, I just had to, I wasn't going to pick up. Also, I felt wonderful. I mean, it's a hell realm. I mean, I've never been back in that hell realm again, that hell realm of being in the food of binging, purging, binging, purging or starving. In that second year, I had to do some more work, and I could really just see how I, I had a lot of, um, self hatred for myself. And I can remember, I didn't realize at the time, but at this [00:32:00] point, I was meditating, you know. I started being in the rooms of Buddhism from the age of 27. So, I can remember leaving the meditation room, waiting for the train.
[00:32:14] Vimalasara: This, like this, my whole body rigid saying, I hate myself, I hate myself, I hate myself.
[00:32:20] Sonia: Mm hmm.
[00:32:21] Vimalasara: So I knew, you know, even then, like, I hadn't really worked with that. So I didn't, basically, it was like when I was 38, when I let go of the disordered eating. So I was still having, I hate myself in my head, you know, and that was something that was part of my stinking thinking, I hate myself. And I had to really work with that, and then one of the ways I worked with it was like, okay, I'll start saying I love myself, and my love for myself would drown out part of I hate myself. [00:33:00] And I was still hearing my hate myself, but not as much. And then I got to a point of realizing, oh, there's no self to hate again, because what was I hating?
[00:33:12] Vimalasara: I was hating all the stuff that was going on in my head. And then I think the breakthrough was, is that I realized, through my therapy, you know, therapy, it was like, oh, I flee to my hate myself because it's so much more familiar than to stay with the pain of what was going on. And then I got it, Sonia, I really got it.
[00:33:33] Vimalasara: This was the door opening for me to let go of the hate, hate myself was. I realized, oh, that voice comes up just when I'm vulnerable. If I'm experiencing vulnerability, that's what kicks in. And so now, if that ever voice comes in, it's like, Oh, vulnerability is here. What do I need to do? Because, you know, again, it's so much easier to be with, I hate myself, than to be with [00:34:00] vulnerability.
[00:34:00] Sonia: Yeah, you're right. I always say, it's easier for me to blame myself.
[00:34:05] Vimalasara: Exactly.
[00:34:07] Sonia: to look at a situation clearly. It's like I'm more comfortable in that place where it's my fault. I'd rather it be my fault. and that is tough. Right. so you did mention one way to start managing these negative thoughts.
[00:34:21] Sonia: Like just think the opposite, right? I hate myself. I love myself. Can you tell us a little bit more about the idea of thoughts without a stanker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:34] Vimalasara: you know, I, as a riff off from Epstein, who writes a book, Thoughts Without a Thinker, So, you know, just playing with that, thoughts without, thoughts without a stinger. So in a way, of really, if we could really come into relationship with thoughts and not facts. I mean, thoughts, yeah, thoughts are not facts.
[00:34:57] Vimalasara: Because often, We think our [00:35:00] thoughts are facts and we begin thinking, and that actually gets us back into this cycle of addictive, habitual behaviors. Gets us back into picking, into picking up. It's a bit like using, for an example, example, I could be out somewhere and, um. I see somebody on the park bench who's got alcohol in their hand and what happens is there is a sensation in the body because my eye has had contact with this alcohol that's in this person's hand and I might salivate and I might get itchy palms and the thought might be,I want a drink or, you know, and it's like, and it begins to plague me.
[00:35:56] Vimalasara: and I begin to believe it, and it becomes a fact, and I pick it [00:36:00] up. Or it, it could be that, you know, I'm still trying to stop, like, Oh, this is a sign, sometimes, it could be, I could be out, and I see somebody eating a cream cake, and I'm, and it's like, Oh, this is a sign, you know, this is speaking to me, and before I know it, I'm in a bakery and ordering cakes and eating it. So, it can just happen that quickly. So one of the things, that's been a really good teaching for me, that thoughts are not facts. And that actually, how can we have thoughts without a thinker? That thoughts will arise and just let them cease again. Because what happens is a thought arises, we cling to it, we grasp it, we fix it, and it becomes me. It becomes me, and the thoughts aren't me. So one of the things that actually we [00:37:00] can do, and this, this comes from, the words of the Buddha, of this is not me, this is not mine, this is not I, that, you know, and sometimes, when a thought arises, you know, we can be in recovery for years and all of a sudden this thought can come in, it's like, okay, this is not me, this is not mine, this is not I, to give me space.
[00:37:19] Vimalasara: So that's one of the ways to work with it. But going back to this spiritual. bypassing those of us who have had addictive, compulsive, habitual behaviors. There's a lot of self love and compassion that we need to do. You know, and I think sometimes people didn't even realise that it's okay to love and like themselves.
[00:37:42] Vimalasara: And definitely in my new book, it really is about exercises of learning to love ourselves. In the first book, Eight Step Recovery, I have four basic needs of the heart where we really want people to really begin to pay attention to themselves, give themselves [00:38:00] some affection. some appreciation and acceptance.
[00:38:03] Vimalasara: Yeah. In this, in this new book, in, you know, First Aid Kit for the Mind, one of the things is, it's just about love. I love working with acronyms. So just learning to, to like, it's just something about ourselves. Beginning to own our uniqueness. validating our existence, our existence, and just embracing this moment.
[00:38:31] Vimalasara: And also, again, of really eliminating some of those toxic things that, we've carried around with us. And another way to begin to let go of this toxic thinking is, when you have this story in your head, Who's who, whose voice is that. 'cause often when you ask yourself, whose voice is it?
[00:38:53] Vimalasara: It's gonna be a parent, it's gonna be a teacher, it's gonna be an adult. It wasn't your voice. And [00:39:00] even if somebody says to me, well, it's my voice, I say, how was that voice shaped? Who shaped that voice? And even that, when we can begin to see that this isn't our voice, that this was somebody else's voice, this isn't us that can give us space. And then, you know, another way to talk about in the book, it's just relaxing. Sometimes we just have to tell it. Sometimes we have to tell it to shut the fuck up, basically. Yeah. Sometimes we have to, yeah. Just give me a break. Step aside a moment.
[00:39:38] Sonia: Yeah. You talk about the importance of just like taking a deep breath sometimes, right? speaking of the book, you talk about the idea of coming home to the body. What? What does that mean? And what significance does it have? Hmm.
[00:39:56] Vimalasara: that's a really important [00:40:00] teaching for me and I just want to say everything in this new book doesn't cost a thing. We've got it. It's all there. You don't have to go out. The only thing that costs is a copy of the book. And definitely this body of coming home to the body. Sonia. We know, like, those of us who have had these addictive, compulsive, habitual behaviours, often it's about getting high, it's about splitting from the body, it's about being out of the body, having out of body experiences. And why is that? Because for so many people, it's so painful to actually be in the body. And often, why is it so painful to be in the body? Because We may be somebody who experienced a lot of sexual trauma as a young person, physical trauma, just this trauma. And [00:41:00] so we get to the point when all sense doors are closed.
[00:41:05] Vimalasara: if we think of the home we live in, we lock the windows, we lock the doors because we don't want anybody to get in. And we do that with this body we walk around with, that we close the sense doors. All the scent stores were shut down because we don't want anybody to get in because we've been hurt so much.
[00:41:23] Vimalasara: And actually, I always say part of the recovery is a bit of an oxymoron because it's like we're spending all this time wanting to be out of the body and then what we're saying is, is that you've got to come back home to the body. And what I mean by that is, is to be in the body and begin to feel some of that messiness.
[00:41:45] Vimalasara: Thanks. of feelings, some of that messiness of, of unpleasantness in the body, some of that messiness of, of anger, of rage. You know, we, we have to come back home to the [00:42:00] body if we really want to stabilize our recovery. Again, that's how we can bypass of not being in the body. Yeah, and we, we have to learn. To come home to the body and actually acknowledging that this can be a really scary place.
[00:42:21] Vimalasara: Because being in the body was a place that was very unsafe to be in. And you know, I want to use an example of, of sexual trauma. Is that, um, that when, young people or when anybody is sexually assaulted, we know that sometimes that the body can be touched in a particular way and pleasant sensation will just arise.
[00:42:52] Vimalasara: You can't control that. Pleasant sensation will arise. And so, you know, if you're somebody who's been [00:43:00] assaulted and you experience a pleasant sensation arising, You think you're dirty, you're nasty, blah, blah, blah, it's your fault, blah, blah, blah. And so, anything to do with pleasant, then, you don't even want to allow yourself to experience pleasantness, because it's just so activating.
[00:43:19] Vimalasara: You don't want to be in the body, you don't want to experience that. So, you know, these things of physical, sexual trauma, emotional trauma, can really catapult us out of the body. Because that's the safest place to be. And I can remember that. I experienced all those traumas. And I can remember the last one, physical trauma, when I was having physical things inflicted upon the body.
[00:43:44] Vimalasara: I wasn't in the body. Forget it. If I'd been in the body, I wouldn't have survived. I left the body. I was out, And that's something that, you know, I really had to work with, bring myself back. I'd be, I was a cyclist in London, [00:44:00] I'd be cycled like two hours to work, two hours back. Sometimes I didn't even know how I managed to get home or to work because I wasn't on the bike.
[00:44:10] Vimalasara: I was somewhere else. So learning to be in the body, and that's part of loving. That's part of taking care of the body.
[00:44:19] Sonia: Yeah. I know we had just mentioned briefly about triggers, but can you explain this practice of rust? Rust. recognize, understand, stretch, tell, and how that helps in managing triggers.
[00:44:34] Vimalasara: Yeah, um, thank you. again, I, as I say, I love working with acronyms and so this practice of RASTO would say that, the mind can get rusty. You know, and we know, like, when things get rusty, things don't work as smoothly as what they used to be. It's a bit like, the car gets rusty, you take it in for, to service, and it comes out working a bit [00:45:00] better, and the mind can get rusty.
[00:45:02] Vimalasara: And so, how can we begin to, get rid of some of this rust? So I'm playing with that image. Of the rustiness and actually, and what I'm saying is, is that ah, when we're, when we find ourselves assailed by stinking thinking or an attack, you know, like sometimes we can have this attack of stinking thinking.
[00:45:25] Vimalasara: Sometimes it's more subtle that the ah is just recognizing that we're activated, and, and that can be just, but just recognizing we're triggered and the you is. understanding that we're just caught in a story. That's all that's happened. We're caught in a story and sometimes it's a familiar story.
[00:45:47] Vimalasara: It's a story that we've been recycling for years. And if we can understand that and S is sensations, just stretch with sensations, perhaps [00:46:00] scream, you know, sing with sensations, just shout, just sway the body with sensations, move the body because that's what happening. And the T is Trust this too shall pass and also tell it to relax.
[00:46:16] Vimalasara: And so, what I say to people is, is that when we're actually caught in something and our mind has been captured by a narrative, it's been captured by something, we won't be able to go through the whole process of Russ. But what we could call on one of them, it's just like, Oh, you understand, I'm just caught in a story. Okay, it's just a story. This isn't fact, it's just a story. Or. you might just call on, I'm just activated, I'm triggered, so I need to take care of myself because I'm, I'm experiencing triggers and activations, or you might just call on the S, sway the body, stretch the body, because often, when we're, [00:47:00] Captured, we're, we're, we're stuck, and just moving the body, just swaying the body can free up something.
[00:47:06] Vimalasara: Or, you might just call on the tea, and just trust this to, will pass, it's gonna pass. Or, just tell it to relax, sometimes just tell the story to relax, so that we can have some space with it. And so, just really, it's a way of just working when we, um, So again, if you have a thought of wanting to pick up, call on the, recognize that you've been activated.
[00:47:37] Vimalasara: Something's activated for you to start thinking you want to pick up. Recognize that. So what do you need to do? If you recognize you're being activated, pick up the phone and call someone. Pick up the phone and call your sponsor. Call someone. Ask for help. Again, if you are, oh, I'm caught in a story. reach out to somebody so that you can actually talk to [00:48:00] somebody about it. So that's the practice of Rust.
[00:48:04] Sonia: I can't tell you how much that encapsulates, my sobriety. Just reading it was like, that's it. That's it. The recognize, understand, pause and, and trust that it'll go away. It's the way you speak of it is exactly, exactly what it feels like when you're trying to manage yourself. I know that's what I took away from your book, but what do you hope readers will take away from First Aid Kit for the Mind?
[00:48:34] Vimalasara: Yeah, you know, um, the book is designed that If you're somebody who's like, Oh, not another book. Oh, not another book I'm going to buy. And it's going to pile up and I have to read. Okay, this is a pocket book. And actually, it's almost like you could use it like a pack of cards and open it up on one [00:49:00] page.
[00:49:00] Vimalasara: And maybe that is just enough for you. It's designed that actually there is a one minute practice that you can do. You know, and if you want something longer, you can have 15 minutes. There is, there are one minute or five seconds nuggets of wisdom. And then there is wisdom which takes more reading. what do I want people to take away? Um, just that they take away a nugget of wisdom that,if you think like, Oh, I can't cope with reading a whole book again. You don't have to read the whole book. There is something in there for you. So, in a way, I, I think, what I want people to take away is to have more freedom. You know, this is about freedom.
[00:49:48] Vimalasara: So, if anybody's listening and they aren't having freedom from their addictive or compulsive or habitual behaviours, you might think about doing [00:50:00] something different. Because recovery is about having more freedom. Yeah, it is. You know, and those of us who are in recovery, who are in a bit of a rut and who are stuck, because we can always have more freedom, think about what you're doing.
[00:50:15] Vimalasara: So, I really hope that this, pocketbook will give you some more freedom, open up the doorway of freedom.
[00:50:25] Sonia: I talk about sometimes I get in this sobriety fatigue and I feel like opening a page up of the book We'll help you get through that. So thank you so much for writing this book, Mimosara. Thank you for coming on the podcast. And I want everyone to go out and get their new book and you know what?
[00:50:45] Sonia: Pick up one of the older ones while you're at it. and thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.