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NWA Founders is a voice for Founders, Owners, and Builders driving growth in Northwest Arkansas, and is hosted by Cameron Clark and Nick Beyer.
'NWA Founders' is a voice for Founders, Owners, and Builders driving growth in Northwest Arkansas, and is hosted by Cameron Clark and Nick Beyer.
To recommend a guest or ask questions, reach out at nwafounders@gmail.com and follow us on YouTube and LinkedIn for video content.
[00:00:00] Marlon Blackwell: Nothing's given. Mm-hmm. You earn it. That's the Arkansas way. You don't, there's no crazy money and there's no free lunch here. You have to earn it. But the work that we have gotten to work on in Bentonville, like the Fadden School, uh, Christopher Bridge Museum, the opportunity to do the museum store, yes.
That was a competition. We had to earn that good design can be good business. That store paid for itself in four months. And then the same with the Whole Health Institute. This will be opening up in May one. That was a competition. We did designs for it and we won on basis of ideas. And we're competing with firm from, you know, around the country.
[00:00:31] Ati Blackwell: We have proven that we can do work here, but there's also a lot of competition 'cause people know that this area's good and is interested in building more. So there's a lot more competition.
Yeah. Uh, you know, we're still doing our pushups. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:00:54] Cameron Clark: Well, thanks for coming on today. Yeah. Great to be here. Marlin and Ti Blackwell here. Sitting here in your office in [00:01:00] downtown Fayetteville. So here at the NWA Founders Podcast, we wanna encourage others in northwest Arkansas. And what you guys have done here is absolutely exceptional. Over 200 design awards.
I. 2020 a i a gold medalist. And I think there's a lot people can learn from your story. So I appreciate you coming on. And kinda before we dive in, Marlon, will you give the overview, uh, 32nd overview, Marlon Blackwell Architects, what do you guys do here? Maybe people who aren't in the, you know Yeah.
Architects, construction world. Well,
[00:01:30] Marlon Blackwell: you, you know, we're making architecture for the 21st century. That's, uh, American
[00:01:34] Cameron Clark: architecture,
[00:01:35] Marlon Blackwell: I would say. Uh, and the ideas that we are trying to ennoble places, uh, and enrich people's lives everyday lives through, uh, through buildings and places that, uh, uh, you know, uh, improve the built environment, you know, and, and make, uh, great places, uh, to be everyday places and [00:02:00] work that is available and accessible to everyone, not just a few.
Uh, we believe that architecture can happen anywhere, at any scale, any budget, and for any, anyone.
Hmm. And
[00:02:09] Marlon Blackwell: so everything we touch doesn't matter how small, it's a carport all the way up to a new American embassy that we're working on in Central Africa. It all deserves to be architecture
[00:02:20] Cameron Clark: and be
[00:02:21] Marlon Blackwell: available and, uh, to folks to experience, to delight in and, uh, you know, to.
[00:02:27] Cameron Clark: To have a place to be. Wow. Tell us your story here. Where'd you grow up? Uh, and then, you know, college. Well, I don't know if you wanna say what we, uh, ahead.
[00:02:36] Ati Blackwell: No, I think you covered it. Did I cover? Okay. All right. All alright. Just I would feel free to interrupt. I mean, should be natural like at home, you know?
Yeah. I would say we interrupt each other. Add a little bit of character to the architecture. I think that's one of the thing I feel like we try to do. There's a sense of certainly trying to create a sense of place, you know, wherever we practice, we don't just do work here. Right.
Especially, yeah. We're [00:03:00] fortunate enough to,
[00:03:01] Ati Blackwell: uh, you know, being able to do our work elsewhere also.
But the thing that's really important for us is to connect with, uh, the project with our client and really understand what they're looking for and also a sense of place. Mm-hmm. And so, and also in some ways, I think we have a line that started many years ago. We call it cre, recreating strangeness in a way.
Strangeness is a strange word, but, um, it's also recreating something, you know, that you might have seen in that area. So you're familiar with in some ways Yeah. Familiarity,
[00:03:37] Marlon Blackwell: but, but in a new way. Mm-hmm. So interrupt the way in what you might, uh, have experienced it before. Seen it. So we, we call it the strangely familiar.
Uh, and that's, uh, we way we try to connect to our place, our local place here, but also we have a. A wonderful, talented group of folks here. Uh, and we're all quite familiar with the universal language of architecture.
Mm-hmm.
[00:03:59] Marlon Blackwell: So we're [00:04:00] really interested in having a dialogue with our, our own place here, Northwest Arkansas or wherever we work, but it's also a dialogue at the global level too.
Uh, so we, you know, we, I I think they call it the glocal, you know, so we, you know, we, we like to, uh, think of that and we think of architecture as a material practice, but always as a cultural act that, uh, we are in many ways contributing to culture and helping shape culture and, and, and in turn the work that we do is shaped by nature and by public life.
Hmm.
[00:04:29] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, and so that's, that's a lot of the things that kind of go into what we do and what we try to do. Uh, and we try to do it in such a way that there is a, what we strive for is authenticity. And so not the, uh, sort of corporate, uh, I can find this anywhere in the country, sort of, uh, uh, approach. We, we, we really like to think of every opportunity we have as a type of one-off.
Right. It's, it's unique unto itself, and we try to tap into that. And I think a lot of our [00:05:00] clients really like that. Yeah. That it's bespoke for them.
Hmm.
[00:05:04] Cameron Clark: I have a lot of questions going through that. I wanna dive in more on that. Um, on the, the, the strangeness piece before, I want to tell you the story, both of your stories, but the strangest piece, would that be like the, like the Fadden barn, the mm-hmm.
The red, like
rec
[00:05:21] Cameron Clark: Yeah. I mean that was the first thing that came to my mind. Or the red barn seeing, right. Seeing this other places growing up here, Northwest Arkansas. It just, yeah. The, the barn is there.
[00:05:30] Marlon Blackwell: Right. It's, um, it's, it's, you know, you can tell that it's certainly of its place. Yeah. But it's also slightly out of place.
It's like I haven't quite seen one quite like that before. So, you know, at when Clayton Marsh, the headmaster, uh, at the head of the school at Dayden at the time, came to us about this barn. I, I listened to him and he wanted a real barn that br breathed naturally, you know, naturally ventilated and everything.
And 'cause they're, you know, Dayden barn stormers and
[00:05:55] Cameron Clark: Yeah. And
[00:05:55] Marlon Blackwell: all that. And I told, I warned him, I said, you know, I've been working on this barn for 30 years, [00:06:00] so I'm ready. Wow. You know, so I, 'cause, you know, barns and
mm-hmm.
[00:06:04] Marlon Blackwell: Silos and all these things that I also think make the landscape of northwest Arkansas so unique and just a wonderful place to be.
Very pastoral. Yep. Uh, setting, you know, I. That those have been inspirations almost everything we do. So we went back to the original idea of the Ga Northwest Arkansas Ozark barn.
[00:06:24] Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:25] Marlon Blackwell: And
[00:06:26] Cameron Clark: then we went from there.
[00:06:27] Marlon Blackwell: Wow. Yeah.
[00:06:28] Cameron Clark: And, and so tell about growing up, growing up, you, you did not live in just, you did not live here.
You kind of No. Moved all over the place.
[00:06:34] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. My family's from Alabama and, uh, parts of Georgia. Uh, my dad was in the Air Force, so I grew up all over. I was born in Germany, uh, lived in the Philippines for a while. Selma, Alabama, uh, Florida, Colorado, Montana, uh, back to Florida. Went to school at Auburn, uh, uh, and uh, then wound up in south Louisiana after school in the Cajun [00:07:00] part of Louisiana.
Yep. Uh. Struck out for the city, went to Boston for five years, and then a year in Italy. Uh, in Florence, lived there to get my master's degree, Syracuse. Mm-hmm. And then, then thought, well, maybe I could teach and practice, you know, maybe, and maybe practice what I preach. So I worked 10 years, uh, in firms before I kind of went back to grad school.
[00:07:22] Cameron Clark: And, and when you were, when you were growing up, kind of going into when you were mm-hmm. About to go to Auburn here, when did architecture become a passion? Or, or did, or was it a passion? Was it, it,
[00:07:34] Marlon Blackwell: it, it became, you know, you go through a series of things as a, as a, as a child. I, I kind of, my formative years were really in South Florida, homestead, Florida, living near the Everglades, of course, I developed a real love of nature and of course.
Being out in the Everglades a real fear of it too, because there's a lot of things that can, uh, bite you Oh, yeah. And kill you. Um, so, you know, I was really, you know, into [00:08:00] nature and I thought, oh, paleontologist would be an interesting thing. And then I evolved into the
[00:08:05] Ati Blackwell: explorer. Yeah.
[00:08:05] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Explorer create rice to take, uh, my dad also raced cars, uh, stock cars and many stocks on the weekends that he had his own pit crew and stuff, man.
So I take, he'd take me out in the boonies and we'd raise, you know, Google cars and things, and I'd find skeletons and then I'd wire 'em together to see what they are. And, you know, so I was interested in that. And then I got interested in creative writing, you know, creating stories. Uh, and then I started cartooning.
And so I started fairly young and I would every day after school come home and I'd cartoon and I'd make up characters and stories and, uh, you know, weird little, uh, comic strips and, you know. Mm-hmm. Humor, humorous and rye, and, you know, those sorts of things You do. Yeah. Yeah. But some point I read a story about cartoonists that, uh,
[00:08:53] Ati Blackwell: no, don't say that.
[00:08:54] Marlon Blackwell: You don't wanna say that. No, please. You. But it's it true. I, I, I, I read a story that it was Aer and it's [00:09:00] talked about how cartoonists is amazing lives, but a lot of 'em have alcohol and drug problems. Uhhuh. I was like, oh God, I don't wanna be a part of that. Yeah. You know? So I thought, well, I'll become an architect instead was just a whole host of issues there.
Um, but, but I actually to, to the point I, I got to design in, uh, one of those drafting shop classes you have in like ninth grade. Yeah. Design your dream home and build a model of it. So I designed, it looked a lot like the house I was in. I was like, what the hell? You know, it was terrible, but, but, you know, building it, shellacking it and making a swimming pool shaped like a kidney.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was like, I was like, wow, I can, I'm drawing this thing and sketching and building it. I was like, ah, maybe I want to be a architect having no idea what an architect really does, or the reading you need to do and the math and all of that other stuff. But that, that's where I decided and I, three days after I, so I, I'm, uh, how was, I say I was pretty good in school, but I don't test well.
Okay. My A CT scores, [00:10:00] they were, uh, probably in the low end of football, uh, you know, in terms of, you know, football players were out scoring me on this, uh. So I had to go to, I got into Auburn, but I had to do a, uh, an option, a summer option deal in order to actually get into the program. Sure. So three days after graduating high school, I was in college for a whole summer, just total bootcamp for like 10 weeks.
Uh, and then you have to survive that, and then if you pass it high pass, you know, you get into the program. Sure. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of the, that, that takes me right up to 17 years old. So I started college at 17. So,
[00:10:35] Cameron Clark: and was the, as far as like the industry of architecture and the degree of architecture Yeah.
Or I know here at University of Arkansas, it's a five year program. Is it Same there? Same there. Okay. Yeah, it was the, say a five year. Um, yeah. Um, and is, is that when you were selling Bibles too? Yeah. That's at, at Auburn.
[00:10:51] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. So I, I, uh, well, so I, a lot of kids in my family with not a lot of money. Yeah. And so the order to go, I, you know, it [00:11:00] was financial aid wasn't gonna cover everything, so I had to figure out how to Yeah.
Money. So this program, I, a couple of friends in architecture said, Hey, we did this program last summer and you can make a lot of money at it. And it's, uh, sell bibles and medical books and stuff from through this, uh, Thomas Nelson publishing outta Nashville, Tennessee. And so I thought, well, okay. And I, you know, went and told my parents and, you know, they're quite religious.
My dad thought, oh, what a great idea out, you know, pushing the word of God, which is like, well, no, it's actually not quite like that at all. It's like, it's more of a business thing and yeah. How to develop a sense of independence and self, uh, motivation and all of these things. My mother was terrified, of course.
Uh, 'cause you're out, you know, with a person out in the rural south. Uh, you live in one community and then you spend the entire summer going door to door out in the country. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Really interesting experiences. I did it for five summers, but put my way through school Wow. Lived, you know, we said we, you know, you live like a rat for three months and live like a king for nine.
Hmm. [00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, and so it, it was, it was true. I mean, I worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, uh, and had some wild experiences, uh, that I, I won't document here. We don't have enough time, but everything from, you know, getting a, a shotgun, putting your back to meeting some of the greatest people you'll ever meet in your life Mm.
Uh, to spending a night in jail. So, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of crazy, but it was a, it was a great job. And, uh, put me in into touch with, uh, roots. And in places in the South you wanna read about, you know, and, uh, you got to experience. So I, that was a, a real life changer, uh, for me. Uh, and especially learning how to be, how to motivate yourself.
Yeah. And how to learn the principles of selling.
Hmm.
[00:12:43] Marlon Blackwell: Which are no different, whether you're selling a Bible or you're trying to sell ideas. The principles of selling are pretty, pretty, you know, you're selling a car, they're, they're all pretty much the same.
[00:12:53] Cameron Clark: Yeah. Well, what would you, just trying to think of you, you know, maybe someone who's like in, [00:13:00] in that same, uh, time frame of it feels like you learn a lot of hard work ethic in that face.
Yeah. Well, I've never had a problem with work. I, I've had
[00:13:08] Marlon Blackwell: a job ever since I can remember. You
know, I,
[00:13:11] Marlon Blackwell: you know, paper routes, lawn business in South Florida, you know, when I was eight years old, I was out there earning money to buy an ger and kind of investing in my little, I mean, I've always had jobs. Yeah.
So that's, uh, but yeah, work has never, in fact, wor work is all you, you, you have sometimes, because there's always someone more talented. Mm-hmm. There's always somebody smarter. There's, you know, it's, that's what I found in school. It's like, uh, but I can outwork you. Yeah. You know, that's, so that's the,
[00:13:40] Ati Blackwell: I think you may, I think you learn how to sell, like in a way that I.
I remember when we first started, like there's always challenges. You know, you are presenting this weird design that people never really see. They don't really know they want, but it's like Martin's, I feel like his ability to [00:14:00] always be positive about no matter how negative somebody's being at what at your product?
Like if, uh, and being able, or the process less product, more the process, the, the process or like, you know, whatever it is. Like you're presenting something and they might like 50% of it and 50% they don't. Mm-hmm. And then they would say things like, oh, I, I don't know if I like this when you can change it.
And he will hang on to the good stuff. Like, he'll remember like more or less idea and still does today, and then try to figure out how he can make the other 50 that maybe we like, but the client didn't like, you know, turn it into something else that the client will also like and we still will like. Yeah.
And I felt like that's how we started. I, I think that's an important mat matrix. Mm-hmm. For us. Because like people always ask us, you guys must have great client because all the stuff that you do are so different or radical or different, you know, like, I don't know. They don't know what they work. Like if you look at the Harvey Clinic for [00:15:00] example, right?
Mm-hmm. They thought that we must have ready client that wants something like that. But I think it's a lot of time, it's like pushing the envelope and being able to be ready. To turn a no into a yes and yet, you know, and make the client understand, um, what they're getting and that they get excited about it and that kind of stuff.
And I think, I feel like one of the biggest thing that you learn as a Bible salesman
[00:15:25] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah, no, I, you know,
[00:15:26] Ati Blackwell: in your school, uh, is, is the ability to one, connect with all kind of people being able to speak, uh, in the way that they would understand. So that's another very important thing that I see, uh, with Marlin, is that no matter who you are, you know, like being able to speak and, and being able to connect and then to be able to always stay positive.
Like he remember, I remember him telling us like, you know, somebody might already have 10 BuyBoard and he's gonna sell another one. Like, how, how [00:16:00] does he get there? You know? Yeah. I don't know. He does it well. I feel like,
[00:16:04] Marlon Blackwell: well, I person I like people, so I mean, I just, I like, I like people. I like connecting with people.
I like people from all walks of life. I was taught that way that, you know, you don't see anybody as you're better, you know, or you know, or, or worse, you know, uh, than somebody. So you, I, it's right. I, in the morning I speak with a sharecropper and sit out on the porch and talk to 'em, and you got, people don't, they don't buy into anything if they don't like you, number one.
Mm-hmm. And so connecting with people is really important at where they were. Right. Not talking over people or trying to patronize people either.
[00:16:38] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[00:16:38] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, and then in the afternoon I might talk to a mill worker and then in the evening, a state legislator. Wow. You know, and you have to connect with all of those folks.
So I think it's, it's important because in architecture we're you we're, first of all, people ask, oh, what, what kind of projects do you not do? And what, no, there are no [00:17:00] bad projects. There are only on occasion bad clients. Yeah. You know, and you have to kind of qualify the client in the same way they qualify you.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:17:08] Marlon Blackwell: But. We put stuff out there. I think the reason we're able to do it, 'cause we're satisfying their needs and what their desires are and so forth, they may not know what they're going to get, but it's less of an issue if it doesn't look like everything else because it does, it's what it does for them.
Mm-hmm.
[00:17:25] Marlon Blackwell: And their particular
[00:17:25] Cameron Clark: project that is, we've really addressed and talk about this first 10 years when you were, uh, just built, like starting to, to practice
[00:17:35] Marlon Blackwell: working for others, you know? Yeah.
[00:17:36] Cameron Clark: Working for others. That was, were you able to be that selective from the get go? I mean, you're just, you're just, you're learning more of the trade.
[00:17:43] Marlon Blackwell: I'm in. I never worked in an office because I couldn't afford to do the minimum wage. So I just watch selling Bibles 'cause I got to keep 42% of the profits, you know, and, and that paid for my expenses and my school for the rest of the year, you know, so that's what I did. So when I got out, I had no experience [00:18:00] architecture.
Mm-hmm. So I remember had a, a green, uh, skylark, green and rust filled with everything I own in the back, uh, a portfolio. And I'd written some letters to some firms in New Orleans and I went there, drove overnight from Auburn with everything I I owned. And I think I had a total of, uh, a hundred dollars. Wow.
And, uh, I got there and I waited two hours for the first interview with this really famous firm that was doing the World's Fair, 19 80, 19 84, but it's 1980. I waited two hours. I invited, invited in. They looked at my portfolio, says really nice, where's your working drawings, construction, drawing. I said, well, I've never worked.
Oh, well we need people like that. Never at once. You know, I told them. So this happened over and over in New Orleans. I went to Baton Rouge, same thing. And then I wanted up in Lafayette, Louisiana was $7, uh, no gas left. And I was engaged to [00:19:00] a, a Cajun girl
from
[00:19:02] Marlon Blackwell: the time. And, and so I stayed on her, slept on her aunt's sofa, Uhhuh, uh, and I went out and started looking.
It was it, this is it, man.
Yeah.
[00:19:10] Marlon Blackwell: And I met this guy. His name was Wayne Corn. He owned a firm called Corn Cellars. So literally I had a business card. When I went to work for him, he said, Martin Blackwell, corn Cellar. It was just, it was confusing to everyone. Uh, but he, he, he, he looked at my portfolio for about 30 seconds and then closed it and says.
How much you want. I was like, well, you, you didn't really look at work. Ah, no, I, I can see talent. What do you, what? You know, I said, you're not gonna learn anything about design here. We're gonna teach you the business of architecture.
Mm-hmm. I was like,
[00:19:37] Marlon Blackwell: okay. So that's how I, I got on.
Mm-hmm.
[00:19:40] Marlon Blackwell: It was tough. It was a recession laid in, uh, in the four years I was there, I was laid off four times.
[00:19:45] Cameron Clark: Wow.
[00:19:46] Marlon Blackwell: At one point I was doing, uh, part-time architecture in the morning, and then I would go to the mall and sell Scandinavian furniture in the mall until nine o'clock. Then I would go and do dj 'cause I used to de do DJ work. So I was a disc jockey in the [00:20:00] till from, uh, nine to two in the morning. Wow. And I did that just to pay my bills mm-hmm.
For
[00:20:05] Marlon Blackwell: several years. Uh, so it was tough. That's, and I finally, it's like economically I was, I just couldn't get anywhere. Yeah. And, and now it's also freelancing on the side after hours to build up my resume and my, uh, skill and expertise level. So I finally just, I had a friend, uh, uh, friends in, in Boston that said, Hey, there thing happening in Boston.
Mm-hmm. So I, I, I, I made the decision to go there without a job, just again, sleeping on people's couches. Yeah. You know? So what do it call, what do they call it? Uh, sofa surfing or couch surfing. Yeah. I couch surfing for about three weeks, uh, until I, I, I got an offer and, uh, yeah. Started, started up there.
And what kinda work were you working on in Boston? Boston? A variety of work. Everything from like dormitories to pub, not public housing, but housing. Uh. Things of nature. I never worked for a firm in Boston. Good firms, very, uh, [00:21:00] very solid firms. Mm-hmm. And they treat the people well and stuff. And I, but I, I was intimidated by all of that.
They actually, when they made the offer to me, uh, I, I said, uh, well that's a nice offer. Tell you what, I'll take a dollar an hour less. They go, what? And I was like, well, I don't know how I stack up here. You got all these Harvard and MIT grad stuff. I tell you what, if I do a good job at six months, why don't you gimme a raise?
He said, we've never had anybody ask for less when they make an offer. And I was like, I just wanna make sure, you know, I stack up. Well, I did. 'cause I had four years experience and I stacked and I worked again. Mm-hmm. That loved people from the south that time, because a lot of those other folks, they talked all day.
Yeah.
[00:21:39] Marlon Blackwell: We were in there working our butts off. So that went well. But I never really enjoyed, I enjoyed learning the work and I, but I really learned on my own. So I created an independent after hour studio, and I lived in a loft,
had
[00:21:52] Marlon Blackwell: this pit bull and loft and some loft mates. And lived, lived in an old tobacco warehouse in, uh, beacon Hill.
And, [00:22:00] uh, I just started doing, uh, side work and I got a chance to do a formal gardening garden house in, uh, in North Shore, uh, Massachusetts. And it got published, it was like award-winning, kind of published progress on my own. And then, then my, uh, and an ex, uh, girlfriend's mother who wanted to build a house in North Carolina.
And she. Hired me and, uh, designed that house. And I would fly back and forth on weekends, uh, North Carolina. And that house became an architectural record home in, uh, Southern Living Home of the year. In, in, its in its category. So, and it happened just about the time I got laid off. I was working at a really fine firm at that time.
Uh, but the, the recession was kind of starting in 19, uh, 90.
Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:22:46] Marlon Blackwell: So then that's when I decided I, I'd already applied for grad school, so, and I wanted to go to Europe and I'd never, I traveled to Mexico and Guatemala, but never been to Europe. So
[00:22:57] Cameron Clark: I, I went there. So why grad school when you're already, [00:23:00] you, it seems like you're, you're really building your brand.
The Marlin Blackwell brand. Nah, no. There was no Marlin Blackwell brand there. No, no. This
[00:23:07] Ati Blackwell: is freelance one. That didn't happen until you came here. You what it say? Every once in a while
[00:23:10] Marlon Blackwell: a blind dog finds a bone. I mean, this is, I stumbled into a couple projects. Yeah. 'cause you gotta be in pursuit. And I was, I was a hustler and it's like, got these products and I made something out of 'em.
And I fought like, uh, hell in the field, uh, later, almost got punched out one time because, you know, the guy called, you know, he was from Maine working on it, and he was dyslexic and he reversed all the details, the brick details in reverse and poured the concrete. It was just like. Oh my gosh. I was getting onto him.
He called me a asshole and I was like, you know what the, what'd you call me? And then the owner's out there punch him, punch him, you know, and it's this crazy crap working with, in the, you meet all kind of interesting people. But you
[00:23:52] Ati Blackwell: did build two good projects at the time. Two
[00:23:54] Marlon Blackwell: good, two good projects. And then, uh, I got a chance to, uh, I was, uh, to give my first [00:24:00] public lecture, uh, in Miami, Florida.
Uh, there was this guy who was starting an alternative lecture series at the University of Miami. And this is before grad school. Yeah. And he
[00:24:10] Ati Blackwell: in between. Yeah, he,
[00:24:12] Marlon Blackwell: yeah, he, he had invited a friend of his, as a really great guy from Miami, who was a Harvard grad who'd done this great project in, uh, Puerto Rico, uh, to called me and said, do you know any other people that are doing interesting work?
And so he said, I know this guy. So he goes, I came down part of that, and that's where, how I met it, she was in the audience, uh, that, that, that lecture. But yeah, I decided to go back because I, I thought maybe I could teach, but I didn't want to teach. I tried teaching at the Boston Architectural Center in Boston.
I was terrible. Um, and just beat the hell outta everybody. I didn't know how to, you know, I didn't know anything about how to teach, but it was a way to learn. Mm-hmm.
And learn
[00:24:48] Marlon Blackwell: what, what you're not, what you need to work on. Mm-hmm.
But
[00:24:50] Marlon Blackwell: I thought maybe I could have something to say. I don't really have anything to say, but after 10 years, maybe I have something to say.
And then I was starting to get a little bit of success, a little, you know, so [00:25:00] publication and, and, and so I thought. I need a master's degree in order to teach. Mm-hmm. But, and I didn't get in at Harvard. I, I, I applied, but like I say, I'm, I'm dumber a bag of hammers when it comes to taking a, taking a, you know, a, what do you call it?
A a, an a CT test or something. So, uh, yeah, so I didn't get in there. So I got in at Southern California Institute of Architects, our architecture, really prominent school in Los Angeles, but they didn't have any money, and it was really expensive, and I had to have a car and all, you know, it says mm-hmm. So I'm gonna go to Italy.
So that's what I did. And when I got there, I, you know, I was 34, I was the oldest guy in the class. They called me the Dick Clark of architecture, you know. Uh, but what I didn't have a natural, I, I mean, I can draw on stuff, but what I didn't have when these young guys coming right out, you know, the, in the kind of their sort of natural facility and representation on it.
I had in life [00:26:00] experience, I had 10 years in practice, so I, I could make decisions in a thoughtful, timely way. Mm-hmm. Uh, I didn't need to pull all-nighters, you know, I was kind of more disciplined, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
[00:26:10] Marlon Blackwell: And so I just kicked ass. Yeah. In, uh, in, in grad school. And they were so impressed that when I got through, they offered me a teaching position back at Syracuse.
So,
[00:26:22] Marlon Blackwell: and that's, that's how I,
[00:26:23] Cameron Clark: how I got there. Yeah. And auntie, did you go over there with Marlon as well?
[00:26:28] Ati Blackwell: No, no, no. I, I met Marlon in Miami. I think this is in between, he already got accepted to the program in Syracuse, in Florence, Italy. Yeah. And I had just, so when I met him, I went to a lecture that a friend of mine was organizing, and it's a new uni.
University of Miami at the time was very, very classically trained architect architecture. Everything is very rational, very [00:27:00] historically based, you know? Anyway, so somehow along the line, it was a five year degree, I actually got a scholarship to study architecture. Uh, I end up in Miami. I don't know how or why I thought I was going to like the east coast or something, you know, where you see like, like the love story, like I'm coming to America.
Like, so I had my two suitcase. I arrived in Miami, the door, the gate of the, the door, the airport open. Somebody was picking me up, take me to the dorm, you know, and I got hit by the heat, like hotter than Malaysia. I'm like, wait, what? This is America? I thought it's cool. The ivy cupboard. No, it was not at all like that.
But anyway, I don't know what I picked. I end up picking Miami for no reason. I had no idea I had, mm-hmm. Anyway, but it turned out really a really good experience for me. So, um, I remember like in my fourth year. They had an option where you have, no, you [00:28:00] don't have to, but it would be nice if you can afford it to study abroad.
And they have two study abroad program. One is in London, uh, the AA Architectural Association, which is at the time was the, probably the premier architecture school
in the world. In
[00:28:16] Ati Blackwell: the world, yeah. In the Vanguard. Right in London, across the corner from the British Museum. Wow. And because I was already on a scholarship, doesn't matter where I go, like they will pay me.
Yeah. As soon as I keep the grade, you know? So I applied and I got in, I went there. And then after that I went to the program that they have like a lot of architecture school have in Italy. And my program was in Venice, so I went and did that. Mm-hmm. So when I came back to the US to finish my final year in architecture.
I just got like really confused because, you know what, not confused, but like I really learned all the modern architecture aspects that, that they thought it was a little bit when we were in Miami, but they weren't encouraging us to do that.
Mm-hmm. So
[00:28:55] Ati Blackwell: when I came back, it was like, I started do doing all these modern [00:29:00] things that you are seeing in London or Italy.
You know, like Europe was really more advanced in terms of design and not just architecture, but like the daily basis. You are walking down the street and you're looking at people and you know, the environment like the, the way people dress, just things like that just really wake you up. Anyway, so when, when I met Morgan, I was already a young intern.
I was working a year or two. I was actually waiting to get a job in Malaysia 'cause I, my scholarship was from Malaysia and the deal was like, they pay me because they need architects. Yeah. In the country. And they were like, okay, I'll pay you up for your education, but you have to come back and work for us for 10 years.
I was like, all right, that sounds a good deal. Yeah. So, but when I graduated, there were a big recession that was hitting Asia at the time and they said, okay, if you can wait, uh, we don't have enough work right now, but like if you can intern at where you are, I was lucky enough, my best friend at [00:30:00] college, his dad was a developer in Miami.
He was like, yeah, I need some architect young architects. Yeah. Come work for me. Oh, wow. He has a department in his business that's, so I started working a year, two years, changed my visa and got a temporary, you know, working permit, like doing all of that. And after year five, the company that gave me the scholarship say, because we couldn't honor our end of the deal, which is like, you know, offer you a full-time job when you graduated.
We just, let's just like, you know, write off this whole deal. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I went home and write it off. Meanwhile, I was working, anyway, that's how I met Marlin. Um, for the lecture. I went to the lecture and then I saw Senator War. I thought it was kind of cool, you know, some of the new stuff, especially the house in North Carolina, because it's all wood.
It was like
[00:30:51] Marlon Blackwell: concrete block.
[00:30:51] Ati Blackwell: Concrete block. It was modern, weird in some ways start to see the DNA, you know, like different what
[00:30:58] Cameron Clark: you've been studying.
[00:30:59] Ati Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:00] Uh, and for an American house, like it was like, that you would see in architectural record is you would see that in California. Mm-hmm. But not in North Carolina.
I thought it was cool. So, anyway, um. Like me coming from this background as modern in London and and Italy. And after the lecture I went and said hi to the people that organized the lecture. 'cause they were bugging everyone that they know. They were like, make sure you guys attend a lecture. So I came down, I was like.
I really like your work and basically telling the guy that I showed up so that you, you know, I showed up to your lecture Yeah. To support his lecture series. That's how we met.
[00:31:40] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[00:31:41] Ati Blackwell: Anyway, uh, what was the question? Yeah,
[00:31:44] Cameron Clark: no, you, you, you, you, you answered it. Just, I wanted to kind of fill in more of the, the background, the story.
Yeah. And then, um, so wanna get it to, you know, here in Fayetteville. Yeah. Um, so talk about the decision to move here. Sure. Um, sure. And I, I assume it was to teach, [00:32:00] um,
[00:32:01] Marlon Blackwell: yeah. And to practice. Yeah. So the deal, so we fast forward, uh, a year. So from coming back from Italy, Syracuse, uh, we had now started kind of long distance relationship kind of thing.
And um, and I had an offer to stay at Syracuse, but I felt, you know, after one winter there I, I was ready to go back to South, it's like 200 inches of snow and, I don't know, it was really gray there a lot. And, you know, uh, I dunno, you know, a lot of Jackson Brown songs and you get suicidal, you know, just kind of like dealing with that environment.
Oh, the great school, great students
[00:32:40] Ati Blackwell: like three foot of snow. I know. No.
[00:32:43] Marlon Blackwell: At six It was crazy. And I was like, I gotta get out here. Yeah. Uh, so I wanna go back south. So I had some connections to North Carolina and I thought, well, that's where I'll go. And I'd heard about this really great architect named Frank Harmon at NC State, and I thought, I wanna.
I wanna go there, but they weren't looking. And then UNC Charlotte, they interviewed me, but it [00:33:00] was kind of a boys club. I wasn't really interested in no women on the faculty, which I thought was strange.
Mm.
[00:33:05] Marlon Blackwell: Um, and then there was this opening here and I came here and, uh, I just fell in love with the landscape.
And my parents at that time, my dad was stationed in Oklahoma City. And, um, I thought, well, I've never been to Arkansas. And, uh, they had a new dean, they had a new department head. There was a spirit of change. And, uh, and I'd heard of Faye Jones. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and, and his chapel, thorn Crown Chapel. I, and I remember I kept hearing about Faye, uh, in the, especially in the la late eighties.
Yeah. And he, it just reminded me that you could have a firm in the, kind of, in the middle of nowhere, a national presence. Mm-hmm. You know, and I was kind of tired of the East coast, uh, saturated with talent. It's great. But what I realized is that if you weren't independently wealthy, you didn't have the right pedigree or in blue blood or whatever.
[00:33:59] Ati Blackwell: Oh, well, connected. [00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. It's a pecking order. Yeah. And it's like, which is different from California because people with talent or people with, uh, money there trust youth in a way you don't see on the East Coast as much. Yes. So I,
[00:34:13] Ati Blackwell: there's not connection to family or anything like that. Yeah. Like in California, they,
[00:34:18] Marlon Blackwell: it's, it's a little different.
It's a little, but, but I wanted to go back to my roots in the south. Yeah. And I felt like, you know. Design needs to happen in the South too. And, and again, I'd heard about Faye and he was making it happen. Maybe I could also make it happen. Yeah. So, but I also wanted to teach and, uh, I had enjoyed the, the year at Syracuse.
So I interviewed here the next day. I'm in the, uh, what is now the graduate hotel. Yep. Invited by the dean on the next day. And we're sitting there for breakfast and he immediately makes me an offer, which I was almost offended by because I was like, well wait a minute. You guys must be scraping the barrel here.
You make me an offer less than 24 hours. I mean, it's supposed to be a courtship and all that. Yeah. You know, that's what I was told. Well stayed a little bit. Yeah. I stayed a little bit and I was like, I was hesitant. [00:35:00] I don't know. I'm, you know, still single and it's a small town. I've never really lived in a town for a long time.
It's small and college town and, you know, I'm kind of hemming and hawing. He says, well listen, lemme just cut to the chase. What would it take for, uh, you to come here? What, what is it that we could offer you? Goes, well, I don't know. I said, I'm not, I said, I'm not an intellectual, I'm not a scholar. I really wanna practice.
I wanna, and I don't wanna be able to practice what I preach.
Mm-hmm.
[00:35:28] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, he said, if you'll come here, I will guarantee you commissions to start your practice. Wow. I was like, really? And I went back and I told the dean at Syracuse that, 'cause he'd asked me how the trip went and he immediately stood up from his desk and says, you need to go.
It will never happen here in the rust belt. Wow. And so I made the decision. I had a little Alpha Rome, uh, spider, and I drove, I. All the way from Syracuse through the West Virginia, all that top down, you know? Yeah. On my new adventure [00:36:00] to, you know, northwest Arkansas. Here we go. Yeah, here we go. And he delivered, he was true to, he had, I found out later, he had no idea how he was gonna do it.
What he did is he funneled phone calls that coming into the school almost on a daily basis of people looking for a student or for a professor that could help on the project. They wouldn't normally go to a firm. Mm-hmm. Ah, okay. And so he funneled those to me. And within months I had, uh, a neat little project out in Weddington.
Uh, I did, uh, uh, uh, I call it the house barn. Barn house. Okay. So, for some folks that really lovely people, we still work. Our travel agents, basically Don and Flynn, and George, uh, uh, George Schmitt, uh, but did this, uh, uh, they had, uh, horses, he worked on kit cars and they needed a place to live. And we built them a one structure for all of that
Uhhuh, for like
[00:36:50] Marlon Blackwell: $40 a square foot.
It was now, of course, this is,
yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:54] Marlon Blackwell: 30 years ago. But, uh, and then it just kept capping a little projects here and [00:37:00] there, and, uh, uh, it over, you know, slowly building. I thought maybe I'll do two projects a year. And I worked, we lived on the corner of Washington Lafayette.
Mm-hmm.
[00:37:10] Marlon Blackwell: And I had a little room in the back, which was a, we'd by.
I moved here in 92. We were still dating, uh, we got married in 94. Mm-hmm. And I talked to her into leaving Kuala Lumpur where she was at.
[00:37:24] Ati Blackwell: I finally got a job in Malaysia. The recession ended and then I went home and then I, I, I talked to, I didn't come here to stay. Yeah. You know, came here to get an education and then go back.
Anyway, I went back to Malaysia and, uh, and I have had, unlike Marlin, I have work in Miami, like, you know, doing great work there. Umm, Miami was really building up at the time. And also, uh, on the side of my boss's office, his cousin, who was, uh, doing interiors, he, he was just a businessman, but he hired interior [00:38:00] designers mm-hmm.
To furnish a lot of like the hotels in South Beach and also condominiums. So they would crank out like. I don't know. At the time there were a lot of small, small hotels that like needed to be upgraded on the inside. Yeah. And, and outside. Um, because Miami is suddenly becoming a happening place. So he would be like, his interior designers are really good with like materials and stuff, but they don't know how to do perspective, uh, or they can't do architecture, you know, so he would be like, Hey, can I borrow art for a little bit so she can draw some of the stuff that I need?
So I'll go over there like drawing stuff, and I'm looking at the interior design, and they would teach me how to do stuff. Like, yeah. They were like, no, over here, I want you to put this material anyway, so I'm kind of absorbing the stuff that they're doing. Yeah. And this was before, I mean, there was no computer program.
You have to do everything by hand. All the drawings be generated by perspective, you know, so like, you have to, I mean, you're selling this thing to Italian investors or German, like those are [00:39:00] where all the people were coming from buying in Miami. So turn all, turn all of that. And got to a point where like, I become an expert in interior.
I think this is a, an important thing in our relationship later on during here. So after that, you know, I think I end up working in Miami for five more years, like total of five years after I graduated. And then I. Recession ended and I went to Malaysia and then like by then I'm doing high rise in Malaysia.
You know, they're doing the Patronas Towers, the Twin Towers. And it's like, I mean, I have an experience in Miami, the United States, everyone want me. Yeah. When I went back like so, you know, like working the high end kind of practice and I'm really fast pace. I end up also working in both architecture and interiors.
Like 'cause architecture, you imagine you're doing high rise from the first dis it will be like five or six years before anything will ever be finished. 'cause construction will take two or three years. Yeah. Design may [00:40:00] be one, you know, so at the very minimum, three years before we see anything. So I realized like, I gotta keep doing interiors because there in, in three year, in three months you get a product.
Yeah.
[00:40:10] Ati Blackwell: Like, so then I start working with this company that does a lot of, um, whatever you call it, um, prototype. So like if you are studying a like J crew, let's imagine something like that, right? They have what we call British India, which is similar to J Crew here. Uh, so you kind of conceptualize. The lifestyle, all of that stuff.
Like you measure everything and then you like design the display, design the look and feel, and then you could design and everything in three months. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, 'cause they work 24 7, like construction wise at night. Mm-hmm. Because the construction industry, I mean, everything that I learned there is very different than here.
So anyway, so that was interesting. Like the whole integration between architecture, interiors, what it takes scale wise and speed wise, and [00:41:00] also colors and things like that that come into play. Anyway. So by then I had met Marlin, um, I was in Malaysia. I don't know, we end up like decided that maybe this is working, like relationship.
I don't know, I never really thought it was real, you know, it was just a friend, you know?
[00:41:18] Marlon Blackwell: Really. After four years, I dunno, I don't think so.
[00:41:21] Ati Blackwell: I know like my dad tells me, I remember right before I got in the plane, we were like, you are not dating any American boys. You're coming back here. Okay. Yeah. So it's like, what?
My dad never says anything like that. He's a very quiet guy. Like very, you know, like, so the fact that he said that, I was like, oh shit. Like, you know, so I adhere to that. I only know Marlin as a friend. So in my mind it was just a friend. I couldn't admit the fact that he's anything. But anyway, Marlin came, tell us a story and how you came, that's how it works.
You came to Malaysia.
[00:41:52] Marlon Blackwell: Oh. But I mean, we only have an hour. Okay. So that story along, I no, a short
[00:41:58] Ati Blackwell: form story, like [00:42:00] the short
[00:42:00] Marlon Blackwell: form. Uh, there is no short form story.
[00:42:02] Ati Blackwell: Don't No, no. I'll tell him the short form story. No, no, no. That it'll be long. I'll tell, I'll tell the short form story.
Yeah.
[00:42:06] Ati Blackwell: So how we decided, like, we kind of like, I don't know, we end up proposing over the phone and he said no.
He tells me that I proposed to him like, 'cause I was like, I don't know, maybe we should get married. He was like, what did you just propose to me? I was like, no, what, what? And then he said, what a, I should tell the story because, uh,
[00:42:27] Marlon Blackwell: I think you're leaving out some subtle No, no, that because you'll take, but we should move on.
Okay, we'll move on anyway. Because I think this is a focus more on business. It's focused on business, not on our personal, but I know,
[00:42:37] Ati Blackwell: but the whole story was, think it's a good story, but I think there is, uh, d uh, like a, a story line in a way that how our practice become. Yeah. I felt like Marlin had, you know, he's 10 years older, so he had, he started the practice while I was still a student.
I mean, I attend his lecture. We have different, um, like different training. Training, yeah. [00:43:00] And then when we end up coming to Arkansas, I ca after we got married, I came to Arkansas. We lived in that white House behind the whole, what is that?
[00:43:09] Cameron Clark: The co-op. Co-op. The co-op, yeah. Coop. Like back then it was
[00:43:12] Ati Blackwell: like divided into four apartment.
We were upstairs anyway, so. When I first got here, I worked at, uh, hi Jackson. It was the only company that was hiring. They were really nice to me. They would, you know, I have a different training. They were like, but you have never worked in Arkansas. You don't know how things work here. I was like, okay. So like, I got like a really reduced rate to work there, even though I had like, I don't know, at that time you would bring a very unique skillset, very unique skillset and more experience.
Yeah. And I worked there and then it was actually the first place I started to do computers at the time. Oh, wow. And I got to learn it there. Oh, wow. So, uh, I, anyway, so after a year or two of this, I realized, and I, I would act as a critic. When I would come and visit Marlin, you know, I would see like he [00:44:00] did that coop building and I would like, well, Marlin, this is all you can do.
Like, we would kind of like challenge him to kind of be thinking a little bit differently. Anyway, so we had always in a way kind of collaborate mm-hmm. In a design thing. But I didn't really join him until our second. I think child is, yeah. I was pregnant with our second kid and we needed the bedroom, like the back room that we were using as a studio.
She
[00:44:26] Marlon Blackwell: kicked me out.
[00:44:26] Ati Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:27] Marlon Blackwell: So,
[00:44:27] Ati Blackwell: and I think also our practice grew from the fact that Marlin's idea of, uh, practice was like he was gonna do one or two houses a year. That's it. Like, and anything bigger than that, he was gonna co like, collaborate with a local architect.
Mm-hmm.
[00:44:42] Ati Blackwell: At the time, I think he, he, um, there was an opportunity for one project and I think he was collaborating with another guy, another slightly bigger architecture for, because by this time he's really busy.
Right. He can't, he's a professor and he can do it. He can design at night, but he can't do the [00:45:00] production. So one day I said like, Marlin, this is what I do. Like why can't I, I'll just draw it for you. You know? And then that's how we started. Like, I would draw his drawing and then
[00:45:10] Marlon Blackwell: well, let's, let's paint a picture here before you get, because now you know I gotta tell the story, which is, uh, so.
I'm working on two projects that already had done a few houses.
[00:45:21] Ati Blackwell: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:21] Marlon Blackwell: But I got an opportunity to go back to North Carolina to do a honey house. And this is, yeah. What's the timing? 1998. So this, this is a couple year, few years in to Yeah. Six years in. Yeah. Uh, I'm getting to teach was I main experience teaching?
I just gotten tenured. Uh, and I didn't even believe in tenure and I was their tenure track. And the dean said, well, you gotta do stuff. And so I, I never published anything. I didn't, hadn't done any awards that I wasn't a member of the a i a, uh, and, uh, so I had to, I joined and started submitting some of the work.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and winning, you know, some awards, some just [00:46:00] local, like the Ella building here and the, uh, Cozart and so forth. But, uh, and, and some houses. Uh, but I think the opportunity that came along to do this little honey house, which was in addition to the house that we had done for her, which was a $40,000 project.
But I thought, well, how do you make a, a honey house for a beekeeper? And so we prefabricated it here to control the quality, you know, and the cost. And also, 'cause you couldn't keep, uh, con constructions in the mountains in North Carolina on the, they had all these seasons. Mm. They had like deer season, squirrel season, dating season, I mean, just tons of seasons.
Mm-hmm. And so it's like, well, what if we prefabricated ship it out there and then take, uh, at least folks from, uh, good friends of mine, uh. Adam and Dick from, uh, Razorback Ironer works, and they went out there and put it all together.
Wow.
[00:46:50] Marlon Blackwell: And it was fantastic project. Uh, at the same time, we're doing a tower, McKean tower house.
Yeah. Uh, that we've been asked East to do a tree house, right? Mm-hmm. And [00:47:00] so I'm drawing by hand and every stick, whatever, and it's like, well, I can do this. So we had an orange iMac, a tangerine iMac, so she's putting it on the computer and I'm with a T Square drawing by hand. Wow. It was just kind of a really transitional time.
Hmm.
[00:47:18] Marlon Blackwell: Um, and I was also teaching at the time with one of the most theore, uh, uh, academic and, uh, theoretical architects in the world. Peter Eisman
mm-hmm.
[00:47:28] Marlon Blackwell: In New York, who'd also done the Jewish Holocaust memorial in Berlin, uh, had done the Wexner Center at Ohio State. So I'm getting to teach with him. So he, I'm the Neo Luddite.
This is the guy that, you know, cutting edge. And so we, it's interesting contrast, right. That are going on. But those two projects got completed about the same time. Uh, and uh,
[00:47:49] Ati Blackwell: basically I start to draw that one project and after that I started drawing all the project on the computer. Yeah.
[00:47:57] Marlon Blackwell: Anything on the, and
[00:47:57] Ati Blackwell: then, um, I [00:48:00] remember.
[00:48:01] Marlon Blackwell: But I wanted to talk about the business thing about what happened with those two projects that launched us.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:48:06] Marlon Blackwell: Because that you have to have these breaks.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's
[00:48:10] Marlon Blackwell: breaks that happen, you know, it's just something where you, you know, that if you read that book, what was it, Malcolm, uh, Gladwell's Tipping Point mm-hmm.
And so forth.
Mm-hmm.
[00:48:19] Marlon Blackwell: Things sort of tip. Yeah. So you're tilling the soil. Mm-hmm. You have this idea about how you wanna practice. I base ba I was basing a practice on Faye Jones. You don't have any marketing, there's no business cards. You don't collaborate, you don't do competitions. You just do whatever walks through the door.
That's how Fay read
[00:48:33] Ati Blackwell: and, and imagine half of his time is teaching. So he felt like only half, half the time while I'm sitting here thinking like, okay, with two kids, I need flexibility. Yeah. Like, we need, if I'm gonna draw this, I need to draw more stuff. Yeah. Like, than just one or two a year. Right, right. So it's like need, having that time to do it and, and do it at scale in a way.
[00:48:55] Cameron Clark: So, and, and how, just so people who aren't in the, in the architect in the industry. Yeah. [00:49:00] How do you choose, like, I mean, things that you, you can integrate your style with or like, versus just, just, you know, designing an interior office build out? Or like, or how do you,
[00:49:13] Marlon Blackwell: how do you, yeah. Okay. Well I decided earlier on there wouldn't be any red and butter projects.
You know, the kind of things that are kind of like throw away products that you make a buck.
Mm-hmm.
[00:49:21] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, none. Faye Jones told me, 'cause I asked him, I said, how did you. Do 60 years of practice and all the work is so consistently, it's such a high level. Mm-hmm. And he says, well, you don't what I see. Basically, he said, I decided to start the firm the way I wanted to end it.
Wow. I said, you don't wake up at 50 and decide you're gonna do good work. It doesn't work that way. You have to start out the narrow path, you know, and the, and and, and do the hard work of, uh, things you'll do and things you won't do.
[00:49:52] Cameron Clark: Yeah. And
[00:49:52] Marlon Blackwell: so, I, I, the reason I was, one of the reasons I taught was to provide, uh, the means by which I could pick and choose what I wanted to do.[00:50:00]
And so, the Honey House was an opportunity. The Tower House with James Keenan was, I, I mean, I used to pinch myself. It's like, I can't believe we're building this. We're actually building a, a, a, you know, a seven story house. Uh, and, um, you don't know what you're building. I mean, you're, you're just doing it and you haven't done it before.
Mm-hmm. And it's happening. It's getting built.
Yeah.
[00:50:23] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, we had, you know, houses that way too. And we would help manage the construction. 'cause nobody could wanted to build 'em. 'cause they were, they were, they didn't look like everything.
[00:50:33] Cameron Clark: Well, and talk about that too, for people who are in the industry, the, the difference of designing something and actually getting it built.
And
[00:50:40] Marlon Blackwell: like the str maybe the struggle there. Right. Well, a lot of general contractors, they don't wanna mess with that. 'cause it's, it's a lot of risk on them and they, you know, there's not a lot of money in it for 'em. And so ti and I, we would just work with the subcontractors and get to know this whole network of subs and we would, because we knew enough to know that we didn't know [00:51:00] if, I didn't know how to do a detail.
So I go get the sub and sit down with 'em and said, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? Mm-hmm. How would we do this? And so we start this kind of buy in, they start to buy into what we're doing. Then they said, well, here's how I would do it. And what I've learned in the business that almost every time the way they want to do it, uh, probably be less expensive and,
you know,
[00:51:17] Marlon Blackwell: not as difficult.
So I'm learning, uh, how to simplify details and things of that nature. So it's, we're both mutual mutually benefiting, but then they get excited about doing something they don't normally do. Mm. Yeah. So that's how we work and doing that. We start small, like, you know,
[00:51:30] Ati Blackwell: like in, in the beginning I think we, you know, we do like a garage edition.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:51:37] Ati Blackwell: With like maybe a renovation of a kitchen. And then the next one is a, a full house, but a small one, you know?
Yeah.
[00:51:44] Ati Blackwell: So, and every time it's like you scale up, but you also scale in terms of your design. Pushing. Yeah. And then it got to a point where we are designing our own house.
Yeah. But
[00:51:54] Ati Blackwell: the lot that we found had a creek going diagonal, and then I called Marlon, I'm like, wait, [00:52:00] I, there's a lot for sale.
And I was like, no, nevermind. There's a creek can build it. And Marlon said, what? There's a creek, I'll go take a look at it at the studio. So he came and take a look. He was like, call the realtor. We, we are gonna get this. We can build, we can
[00:52:12] Marlon Blackwell: build on this. Mm-hmm.
[00:52:14] Ati Blackwell: We got
[00:52:14] Marlon Blackwell: it for half price.
[00:52:14] Ati Blackwell: We, we can build a bridge.
He said, that's what he said. Like a, I didn't even think about a bridge. I'm like, so anyway, so once we decided that we can bridge over with that, you know, putting covert and making a big investment on making the land ready to build and was like, okay, we can do a build a bridge. So, so that's like, I think the whole idea of familiarity, like building a bridge makes sense.
Then I could picture it. You can't imagine like building a house that's a bridge, you know? Mm-hmm. But a covered bridge, think about it. Right.
[00:52:43] Marlon Blackwell: You're learning from the site what the site Yeah.
[00:52:45] Ati Blackwell: What the site speaks to you about.
[00:52:47] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. And, but I wanted to finish about the top because there's something momentous that happened.
Mm.
[00:52:52] Marlon Blackwell: Uh and it was almost very, so the one thing I've always appreciated about University of Arkansas, they've always been very supportive [00:53:00] of teachers who practice. Mm-hmm. That's not always true. Uh, but because of Faye Jones and because of the Ozark moderns and people like Herb Valor and John Williams, and so they were very supportive of that.
So, and they were also supportive of the opportunity to maybe. Teach elsewhere, you know, if I, as long as I come back, right?
Yeah.
[00:53:20] Marlon Blackwell: So we finished these projects, um, and a magazine published one of them, honey House and butchered it, just terrible job. And I called 'em up New York and they said, oh, what do you think?
And I was like, oh no, I, that's not very good. I said, you know, I, all these photos I had invested my entire fee. I got on this honey house into the photography. 'cause I knew it could, should be out there.
Mm-hmm.
[00:53:51] Marlon Blackwell: And, uh, you didn't use the photos that I have, you know, and I, I and I, they had a writer out there and I [00:54:00] said, the writing doesn't go, I mean, the writer wrote, but their photos don't go with it.
I mean, it's just like, I, I just feel like I look at the other projects and I said, I, I feel a little zip code challenged here. All the projects from California, New York, they're all three pages, whatever. We get two. And and you don't even get it, right.
Yeah.
[00:54:16] Marlon Blackwell: He goes, oh, and you
[00:54:16] Ati Blackwell: don't do that. You don't complain about any publication.
That's the less similar. You don't like, you don't. Well,
[00:54:22] Marlon Blackwell: but this guy goes, oh, uh, well, he goes, it had nothing to do with zip code. Assure you. It's like, well, I just don't, I don't get what happened because it's, it's, it's, uh, it's unfortunate. I, you know, I, you had the photos you for four months. Why didn't, why didn't you use them?
He goes, well, they just weren't up to artistic standards. I was like, okay, why don't you tell me I could have flown back out, you know, flew the guy back out. We would've retook them. I said, and this guy used to work for Tim Hursley, so he's the most prominent architect photographer in the country. And he lives, he's outta Little Rock.
Yeah. Wow.
[00:54:54] Marlon Blackwell: And, uh, so they said, oh, well we didn't think you'd have the resources to fly back [00:55:00] out there. And I said, what did you say? And I, I don't wanna say this over the thing, but I gave him a few F-bombs. Yeah. You know? And I said, do you realize what you just say?
[00:55:10] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[00:55:11] Marlon Blackwell: I said, you think because I, I'm in, in the Ozarks, I'm this little guy doing stuff and I'm trying to do my best, do a practice that I don't have resources to go reshoot.
And so you just do crap.
[00:55:23] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[00:55:23] Marlon Blackwell: You know, and insult the project. I was furious. Mm-hmm. And well, we'll help you on the tower, you know, 'cause we wanna publish. I said, no, I don't know about that. So what I did, I, I got over the anger part of it. I said, I gotta get this republished and I gotta get this tower redone.
Mm-hmm.
And
[00:55:42] Marlon Blackwell: I met a guy, Robert Ivy, who wrote WR Faye Jones Monograph National Book Award winner had met him here. He's from Mississippi, another southerner. He was the editor, CEO of architectural record in New York at the time. Uh, I called up his [00:56:00] secretary and said, Hey, I'm gonna be in New York and I just would love to drop by and show you some of the new work we're doing and da da da da.
Uh, well, I wasn't gonna happen to be in New York. It was my sole purpose. Yeah. Oh yeah. And so. Guy was like, yeah, I met him. But man, he goes, that's pretty brash. And normally the architects just send in the work. We don't meet with him in person.
Yeah.
[00:56:19] Marlon Blackwell: But he gave me some time and I showed up at lunchtime and at Penn Station, wherever their office was.
And I started showing the, my work and to him, and he's looking at it and I said, I showed him the honey house. I said, this was published, but I, and I know y'all don't normally publish, but people have been published, but they did a terrible job. And, and he goes, yeah, I don't know about that. And then I started showing him a tower and he just stopped.
And he said, whoa. And he stood up and he said, this famous architect from New York, this looked like John Hayek, a famous teacher, grew up and built something. I said, is that an compliment? He goes, yes. And he went in, he said, hold on. He goes in, he gets all his editors, pulls 'em back into the room, said, sit down, start over, [00:57:00] start it over.
And then he, he shoot 'em all out and he turned the light on. He closed the door and he turned around, said, I've been waiting for somebody like you come in here. People that are out in the side, the centers of fashion are doing really good work, but don't get the attention. It's like they, you know, but you're out there working every day and trying to make a difference in your place.
I said, yeah, because I'm gonna do a firm profile on you and I have five others. I wanna do that. And so he did this magazine, uh, called Outside the Centers of Fashion. Wow. It's his issue of arc record. Wow. It was one of the, won a national award for that issue. That was in 2001. At the same time, I'd been invited by MIT.
To come teach there, which was a real honor to do it. And the university allowed me to do it.
[00:57:46] Cameron Clark: Wow.
[00:57:46] Marlon Blackwell: So the magazine came out the day of my lecture at MIT with the tower on the cover.
[00:57:53] Nick Beyer: Wow. Wow. Because
[00:57:53] Marlon Blackwell: they never tell you that, which was
[00:57:56] Nick Beyer: huge. Yeah. National. Oh goodness. We had
[00:57:58] Marlon Blackwell: that, we've got thrust into [00:58:00] the whole national, the phone's ringing and the whole whole thing.
So that was a big, uh, moment for the firm. I just wanted to say that. Uh, and then we didn't have any work for two years. Practically. Ti and I office, we're doing a futile dress shop here at Mason's First Masons and,
you know,
[00:58:18] Marlon Blackwell: a, a few things. Uh, and then we get this opportunity too. Remember ti with Gentry Public Library?
[00:58:25] Ati Blackwell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:58:26] Marlon Blackwell: To take that that is uh, to
[00:58:29] Ati Blackwell: seven years. Seven years. Didn't have money.
[00:58:31] Marlon Blackwell: It's the least expensive public library of Arkansas. We had to three
[00:58:34] Ati Blackwell: times and it still, they had a million dollars and it came in over like always, you know? Uh, yeah. But it was during never a re It was, yeah. But it finally got built.
[00:58:45] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah.
[00:58:45] Ati Blackwell: After the third bid.
[00:58:47] Marlon Blackwell: But that project, yeah. Uh, was taken a a hundred year old hardware store and turning into a public library. It's the first national. Uh, library award winner in the state, and there's now [00:59:00] some other ones that have been done in Little Rock, but still the least expensive. Yeah. $110 square foot.
So they really take care of this,
[00:59:06] Ati Blackwell: but I think it's really important as a, you know, a small town like that, you've, you've been to all the small town Yeah. In America that are dying, right? Yeah. Like, because there's a Walmart somewhere else and the center of town is dying. It was like that. But like they really wanted to use that corner.
That used to be on Main Street. Yeah, on Main Street. Yeah. That used to be their general store and they, they had like, they tell us about, what was it like?
[00:59:30] Marlon Blackwell: Like, oh, the Mary's deep barbecued beaver out the barbecue when up. Apparently they sold buggies up in the top, uh, the horse and then hooked them up to the horses below.
And so it was a whole history and a legacy. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, we developed all these really beautiful details and we left it in its ruined state outside. Yeah. The
[00:59:47] Ati Blackwell: idea of that, it's like you are displaying the skeleton of the. Existing concrete break building as an artifact because we didn't have any money and everything else is attached Yeah.
To that. So it's like treating [01:00:00] it like it's a real object to be cherished.
Yeah. The folks with little Debbie. So when you look at the detail into it, bubble
[01:00:06] Ati Blackwell: glass and everything is, that's
a thing that, so
[01:00:08] Ati Blackwell: it's like, I feel like, I think that's really important too. Like the recognition not only as, you know, an incredible library, but people start to see the difference of how we treat architecture in a way that, I mean, you can see across the street, you know, what was that, that look like?
It's, it looked, it is fake ethos. Yeah. To look beautiful and perfect. When is that really a historic No, it's not. It's, it's, it's covering a real aging building that is beautiful underneath it with a full on fake foam. Like, so we didn't wanna take it that way. You know, we took it completely different route.
And I think that is, that's when people start to understand the things that we do and how we approach architecture in a way that are really authentic. Hmm. And I think it had a lot to do with modern than [01:01:00] teaching and keeping that side of the business and understanding the current discourse, things that are happening, the discourse that's happening in architecture.
So I feel like a lot of the stuff that we do had a lot to do with like, the fact that. The teaching help involve, um, beca make the architecture inform and also us building it, like allow the academic side of practice particularly, uh, see what we can do. Yeah. So I think, and now what we are finding is that in terms of architecture, we can build so much faster here in, in our area or in this part of America because there's a lot, I mean, we still have to follow all of the re regulations, you know, like mm-hmm.
Streamside ordinance, all the zoning, all of the, if you're doing things with lead and all that, you still have to follow that, but things happens faster.
[01:01:51] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. And I,
[01:01:52] Ati Blackwell: things like that is harder to, in other places. So
[01:01:55] Marlon Blackwell: I wanna turn it back to, to the, a [01:02:00] critical, another critical business thing. Mm-hmm. Because you have to have people believe in you.
You know? That's really key. I mean, you'd like to think you do it all in your own, but you don't. Yeah.
You know, it,
[01:02:08] Marlon Blackwell: you have to have advocates, you have to have people that give you opportunity. And opportunity is what we've been fighting for, you know? Yeah. Uh, that's all you have in this deal, but you have to earn it.
And we've had
[01:02:19] Ati Blackwell: people along the way, like us. Well, well I wanted
[01:02:21] Marlon Blackwell: to,
[01:02:22] Ati Blackwell: I know, but lemme just add to that, like, you know, it's either you have a client, a house believe in you, that you can do the house differently, like the whole hybrid house with a horse under in the car. Like that's. An important client that feel it.
I can live upstairs and my horse live down below and my car is down. Like, so like small scale, and then you go to the next, next one and next one. Yeah. And that's the
[01:02:45] Marlon Blackwell: where, so it's the opportunity to scale. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I got the residential stuff is interesting, but you're dealing with all these personalities and all that and you know, I don't mind doing it, but we got a taste of doing public work with Gentry.
Mm-hmm.
[01:02:59] Marlon Blackwell: And that [01:03:00] process, and it's messy and you know, but we were seeing something come out of it. Well, the, uh,
John Tyson, uh, his house caught on fire and he, uh, uh, uh, the architect of that house was, uh, s Sutherland, who had, was also teaching in the faculty historian. Anyways, he had called and said, my house is image. Do you, uh, si is a practicing board as you have somebody that might, could help kind of renovate this, get this.
Anyways, so I actually get the call from the dean and I go and meet Tyson and within three weeks we're demoing and designing and getting things up there. And he, you know, we, we, it's a, a beautiful house, but he was also thinking at the time about a new golf clubhouse. A golf course. Yeah. And gave us the opportunity to compete against some other firms.
For the opportunity to [01:04:00] do this clubhouse and with it would come the Razorback Center for the men and women's golf team and all that. So we did that, uh, competition and lo and behold, we, we won it. And we are a firm. It's ti and I and maybe one other person, like
[01:04:18] Ati Blackwell: four people or four.
[01:04:19] Marlon Blackwell: And we pulled Allnighters, do the models and all that.
Anyways, we won it and uh, he, its partners won it. Well you need to get the guy ran out second place 'cause they're a real firm, you know, and have them team. And I'm like, so I'm gonna team with the guy who didn't get it and give them the fee.
Yeah.
[01:04:39] Marlon Blackwell: I said no. Yeah. And to John's credit, he's like, no, he give these guys, he, he trusted
Wow.
That we
[01:04:46] Marlon Blackwell: could do this and, and means we had to scale.
Yeah. And
[01:04:49] Marlon Blackwell: I don't even golf. I know nothing. And so who comes to our office? 'cause we're in the Easton building on the corner. John Lewis in the Bank of Fayetteville comes over who had been helping [01:05:00] us, you know, with our own financial planning and so forth.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. 'cause we were having to start from scratch and just learning about how importance of good credit for a business. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And he came over and says, I hear you have a, a new commission. And I'm like, well, how do you know that? He goes, it's a small community. And he, and he's like, I said, you're gonna need a staff.
And I said, yeah, we're gonna need some hire some people. He goes. And you're gonna need a credit line. I go, because we'd all just paid cash. Because you may not get paid right on time. You're gonna have to pay other consultants, and you're gonna have to go with this. Come over here and let's talk about me getting you a credit line.
So this guy, you know, just based on our us paying our bills on time
[01:05:44] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[01:05:44] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, with them, because we've taken a loan from 'em, gave us this amazing credit line mm-hmm. In order to comfortably start the business, you know, at another level. Yep. And so that was life changing for us. The, the trust that we got. And [01:06:00] then, and then actually building this project, improving that we could scale up.
Mm-hmm. You know, it's,
[01:06:05] Cameron Clark: it's a, it's a great clubhouse and it's, yeah. And scaling up there, was that five more architects or what was what, what that was? Yeah. Yeah. It was about four.
[01:06:14] Ati Blackwell: Yeah. So it's not just me drawing. And then we had like a, a lot of you start to Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so that's, we usually get like the, uh, young, younger intern.
'cause it's like, that's what we could afford school, getting students. Yeah. And you train them. Mm-hmm. So around that time, then we could hire like, real people with experience.
[01:06:32] Marlon Blackwell: Right. So that's o so we don't have
[01:06:34] Ati Blackwell: to train from scratch
[01:06:35] Marlon Blackwell: two. Yeah. Okay. And, and then, then I, I, my, the client, 'cause the golf center, that was, uh, Frank Royals mm-hmm.
And Bill Gray, they were basically providing the money to build it. And then, you know, using it on the land there of the blessings. That was really interesting. So, uh, uh, a person to work with as well. Um, [01:07:00] and so this whole complex came together and it proved that we could scale. And so now we really like, man, we want to try some things.
We could do
[01:07:06] Ati Blackwell: it in-house. At that point, magic and Mo never really thought that he could. I mean, uh, he thinks that, I mean, he couldn't himself. Like he couldn't, he can design, but he can't execute because he's too busy. So
[01:07:19] Marlon Blackwell: we weren't trying to build a large firm. No, no, no. We're still trying. We're we're on the Faye Jones model.
Mm-hmm. Well, then we, I wanna speed this up because we could be Yeah. All day. Um, yeah. But then we, we got our first national project that we won by No, we
[01:07:34] Ati Blackwell: had the Fulbright building after that. Well, no,
[01:07:36] Marlon Blackwell: I was going to about the, IMA building was before that. Okay. Yeah. Uh, inter, uh, Indianapolis Museum of Art.
Mm-hmm. The Art and Nature Park. There. We won. Um, another great story, but I don't have time Yeah. Story, which at Blake, uh, landscape architect outta Mississippi who had doing some teaching here at Arkansas, we teamed together, we won this project, uh, to do the Ruth Lilly, uh, pavilion and, uh, [01:08:00] everything in that park.
So that was a national project, is the
[01:08:02] Ati Blackwell: Indianapolis Museum of Arts. Yeah. So our first museum project.
[01:08:05] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. And so that was a great opportunity. So we're working on that. And then we start, yeah. We start working on, uh, really nice outer Jim Blair. Mm-hmm. Uh, we're working on, uh, the Fulbright Library, converting that.
Yep. When the library moved into an office building 'cause they were gonna tear it down. Really cool project. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So there are things happening and we're growing and then, uh, and we're still working off phase model, um, in oh nine hits the great
mm-hmm.
[01:08:35] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Recession.
Mm-hmm.
[01:08:37] Marlon Blackwell: And phone quits ringing, uh, you know, and I'm scrambling 'cause we got six or seven people now.
[01:08:45] Nick Beyer: Mm-hmm.
[01:08:45] Marlon Blackwell: And I'm trying to find 'em jobs, so.
[01:08:47] Nick Beyer: And are you still teaching at this point? Still, still teaching
[01:08:50] Marlon Blackwell: and I'm, I'm calling all my friends here in Arkansas. Yeah. I have a really good person because you got, got a job down in bay, St. [01:09:00] Louis got another job up, Roger. You know, we're just doing everything we can to keep from laying people off.
And, um, and then we got inspired a little bit, uh, by, uh, this idea of shovel ready projects. A stimulus package. I never heard of that. You, you give a stimulus package, you know, this is Obama
Uhhuh, uh,
[01:09:18] Marlon Blackwell: at the time. And, uh, I just had, had we had an idea, it's like, rather than go, you know, retreat and just cut, cut, cut and all that.
Yeah. Why don't we do the opposite? Let's go to our credit line. Take a loan from that. And change our business model to where we collaborate. We do rf, Q's, request for qualifications. Mm-hmm. Uh, we change our website, we change, uh, we have business cards. We do a portfolio that we can go out and we're growing.
We're gonna grow. We're, we're, yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna grow and we're going to represent ourselves because, uh, architects knew who we were, but clients didn't.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [01:10:00]
[01:10:00] Marlon Blackwell: And so we did that and, uh, got all local folks like Dosa, the graphic design firm and others, and started working to represent ourselves.
And
[01:10:09] Ati Blackwell: we moved from the basement underneath David Adams there in the corner of mm-hmm. You know, into the Fulbright building also because. When we renovate the Fulbright, building the area down below, that used to be where we drive the car to drop off your books back. Then you still have to turn that like get outta your car and turn.
So we glass it in as part of the design. Yeah. And then they, that's our office. And then they find it kind of hard to lease out and they were like, Hey, you know, a recession, we can give you a good deal if you move over here. And we are like, so we took it. Yeah.
So,
[01:10:40] Marlon Blackwell: and
[01:10:40] Ati Blackwell: it was like, it kind of rebranded came into Ima image of who we are as well.
We were real. Yeah. You because I
[01:10:45] Marlon Blackwell: the architects and also it's
[01:10:47] Ati Blackwell: not in the basement anymore. Wow. It's like it's a glass in brand new building.
[01:10:51] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. But you know, we were still legit problems, you know? Oh, you're not a real architecture firm. 'cause you don't really have to make a salaries or page with the [01:11:00] local like No, we're doing that.
But because I taught they, it was like, oh, you're just sucking off the government tit. And I literally had somebody say that was like, you know, really? Yeah. Yeah. And so at the
[01:11:11] Ati Blackwell: time the biggest companies like architecture company are all in Little Rock. 'cause that's where, you know, and they've been there a long time and they have branches here.
Mm-hmm. In small branch. So it's just like everybody that are there are here. Mm-hmm. Right. And they used to have this kind of like. I would say downright hatred towards,
[01:11:31] Marlon Blackwell: I don't, I think it's hard word.
[01:11:31] Ati Blackwell: I don't know, like, like this day, I think it was a kind of thing, didn't believe in the legitimacy of our company like us.
Mm-hmm. That started from nothing. And also the fact that he's teaching that whole idea of him being a professor and also an architect. Mm-hmm. Like make them think like, you're not really real architects, it's just like you're just teaching. You're all Yeah. You're just teaching. Yeah. Yeah. So had to overcome that for many, many, like, and, and I think many years
[01:11:55] Marlon Blackwell: doing the, the blessings, doing these other projects [01:12:00] that are real and they have real budgets and, you know, all those things real, we were executing.
Yeah. And so it isn't just paper architecture, we're actually executing and it's, these projects are not dying. The death of a thousand cuts, that happens to a lot of projects. Right? Mm-hmm. So, uh, anyways, within oh nine, by the end of oh nine, by rebranding of stuff we formed a team to do, uh, to compete for fhs, uh, yeah.
Fayetteville High School and with hijack DLR outta Kansas City, and we won that project. Mm-hmm. And that was a huge 'cause that pulled us out of the, what I call the death spiral, you know? Mm-hmm. When you're, the ground's getting closer. Yeah. You, you, you're out, man, I hadn't had a paycheck in a year, you know, it's like, yeah.
It's tough. And, uh, and then, um, miracle upon miracles, uh, the dean of the school, uh, we. We're in line for a new architecture school.
Mm-hmm.
[01:12:59] Marlon Blackwell: And he [01:13:00] made an argument, uh, uh, to the chancellor that we should be considered, and we helped them get money from the Reynolds Foundation. Uh, and the Reynolds Foundation said we'd like to keep this design team.
We teamed with folks Stanley and Wow. And so we got the architecture school and FHS going, so we were able to make it through the recession.
[01:13:19] Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm.
[01:13:19] Marlon Blackwell: Growing rather than shrinking.
[01:13:21] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[01:13:22] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, and it all started with let's do the opposite rather than, rather than keep cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting.
Let's actually take a risk. I don't know how we wanna pay it back, but, you know, put the money
[01:13:34] Nick Beyer: back into the firm.
[01:13:35] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Invest, double down.
[01:13:37] Nick Beyer: Yeah. And, and when you say you won bid, like you won these projects Yeah. For someone who's not familiar with an architecture bid Yeah. How that works, does that, does that just mean your rate was lower?
Does that mean No, it does not design better. Like tell, tell people what goes into that.
[01:13:49] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. So it was our qualification, the team that we formed. And the, uh, impression we made with the owners that this is the people we wanna work with. We didn't necessarily have a [01:14:00] design at that time. We are, you're based on your qualifications, your proposal fees are part of it, but our fees are never lower
[01:14:06] Ati Blackwell: for blessing, for example.
It all depends. That was a competition. It all depends on what that means, right? Like, uh,
[01:14:12] Marlon Blackwell: that was a design competition.
[01:14:13] Ati Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, the Fulbright building, I think these guys are from Fayetteville. They're seeing us like doing work that look slightly different, you know? Mm-hmm. So they came to us and they were like, we just got this building.
We felt like you might be the right architects. And like, so they talked to us knowing that they would like to work with us because of what they see we are doing around town. And then we still had to negotiate. So if things work well with our fee proposal and we have time to do it mm-hmm. And we can do it, then sometime it's just based on negotiation, based on the fact that they like our design or what we've been designing.
Right. So that's one with a blessing. For example, he was looking for something different. Like he actually hired, uh, a golf clubhouse architect from [01:15:00] Atlanta, uh, when he was designing the golf course. Mm-hmm. But he said every time he's looking at it, it looked like I've seen it before, like in some other place.
He was like, I, this land is so precious. I want something. And he knows it deep inside that he just want, he doesn't want what he's seen. Like every time these guys giving him the design, it was like, I. He had a, he
[01:15:20] Marlon Blackwell: had a vision and Yeah. And he, you know, the experts kept, uh, not listening basically. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, a lot of it's just listening and Yeah.
And making a pitch, you know? Yeah. You have to pitch what you can do and that you're gonna be the right partner to work with them. Mm-hmm. And
[01:15:35] Ati Blackwell: sometimes people don't want it, like they don't come to you 'cause they don't want that kind of design. 'cause we design in a certain way. We don't Yeah. You know, we have a certain product and we listen to them, but it's always like, it has a certain DNA to it.
Right? Yeah. So for John Tyson's, uh, because we work on his house and he understand how we will understand the process, he like what we bring, it's very different.
Mm-hmm.
[01:15:58] Ati Blackwell: But he's ready for something different. Yeah. [01:16:00] So at the time, that's when he was saying that, Hey, you know, I have this golf clubhouse. I already have a design for it, but can you take a look at this?
Like, you know, and then he was like, you know what? I'm gonna get rid of this guy.
Yeah.
[01:16:13] Ati Blackwell: I wanna bring like five different team. They're all local. Like, so he invited I think five, right?
[01:16:19] Marlon Blackwell: It was four, but four. But four local. Yeah. So it was a design
[01:16:21] Cameron Clark: competition. It was a design
[01:16:23] Ati Blackwell: competition. That's
[01:16:23] Cameron Clark: another way to do it.
Yeah. And let's, I wanna make sure we are, we kind of cover where, you know, where you guys are at now. 'cause I think it's, yeah, we stream impressive point. I'm sorry. Impress. We were just laying the foundation
[01:16:34] Nick Beyer: for all that. No. The found, which is this big foundation. No, no, it's good. And just again, for people who aren't familiar with the architectural space, is.
Is architecture. When you say fee, is that based, y'all kind of get together and you're like, we think this project's gonna take this many hours. We charge this much per hour's, we task.
[01:16:51] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. We task it out. Okay. And then we give a percentage of construction. Okay. Uh, typically we also, uh, our fee usually includes basic services like the [01:17:00] mechanical, the electrical, the plumbing, structural.
Okay.
[01:17:02] Marlon Blackwell: And then there could be additional services as needed, like lighting or civil engineering or mm-hmm. You know, all of all of those things. Landscape architecture. Mm-hmm.
[01:17:11] Ati Blackwell: And you also know what the general fee is. Mm-hmm. In, in, in general, this is a market cap to a project fee. And then, and that's why like a developer, for example, they have to have the lowest fee in order to make their performer work.
Mm-hmm. So that might not work for them to hire people like us, you know? Mm-hmm. So that's why like,
[01:17:31] Marlon Blackwell: but it did work on Fulbright. 'cause that was a developer, but that, that was a developer that was wanting to find the right project for us to Yeah. As just said, but we don't. Uh, they kind of have to come to us in a way, I mean, in, in that regard.
Mm-hmm. Uh, so a lot of times when people come to us, they already know our work and they're
mm-hmm.
[01:17:51] Marlon Blackwell: They're kind of interested. Uh, it's a little different when you're going out. Yeah. Uh, trying to do rf, QS or RFPs, the invites and, [01:18:00] yeah.
Yeah.
[01:18:00] Marlon Blackwell: Then, then you're out there kind of cold and let, in our experience, if, if we don't have a connection, a personal or professional connection in some ways mm-hmm.
If it's, uh mm-hmm. It's, uh, your law of averages are lower. Sure. Yeah. After that we do have,
[01:18:12] Ati Blackwell: like right now, we, we, we had what with a couple of developers already. We have one that we did, you might have seen it in our website, the PS 1200 project with Concert Huts,
Uhhuh, Fort Worth, you know, in Fort Worth.
[01:18:24] Ati Blackwell: That's a developer project and usually it's like a developer that can't, will negotiate the fee with us, but more importantly, they wanna work with our design ideas. Yeah. 'cause they know we will push the envelope a little bit. We are also doing one with a Tishman fire, um, which is a national developer and they outta New York, it's a project in Boston.
Mm-hmm. Uh, for Harvard Business School. So they have the new enterprise, uh, campus. So where they are building a couple of labs. One conference and convention center. We are doing the hotel part. And how many story housing? [01:19:00]
[01:19:00] Marlon Blackwell: 17 story.
[01:19:01] Ati Blackwell: 17 story. Wow. 400.
[01:19:03] Marlon Blackwell: So that's, that's well under construction. Yes. Now we're doing the.
The restaurant, the pool and the rooftop bar. Bar or the, not pool, but the rooftop
[01:19:10] Ati Blackwell: bar. So a lot of time when you are building with the developer, it's because they want our design. Mm-hmm. And they will negotiate the fee with us and make their performer work with, however, you know, like, uh, the one in Boston for example, we are doing the design and some, some of the construction document integration and they hired somebody else to do all the CD and ca
[01:19:31] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah.
[01:19:31] Ati Blackwell: For that. So, we'll, yeah. So what we're,
[01:19:33] Marlon Blackwell: what we've decided to do, you know, once we got through and, and kind of prove that we could do some of these projects, we're like, we have an opportunity to become, we're a local firm that's building a national reputation.
Mm-hmm.
[01:19:45] Marlon Blackwell: So we have a opportunity to become a national firm that happens to be local.
Yeah. And that's, I think, where we're at today. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it happened because, uh, we started to marry some of, um. What we're able to achieve, [01:20:00] uh, through an economy of means, right? Mm-hmm. And maximizing the value of that. We kind of got known for that. The, I hate to say this, the MacGyver of architecture, but, you know, but we thought, well, we can
[01:20:11] Ati Blackwell: do more with less.
We can do more with less. Mm-hmm.
[01:20:13] Marlon Blackwell: So, and then it was like that became a kind of national deal, but, uh, a lot of architects don't like that 'cause we're, well, you're making everybody have to work hard. But at the same time, we thought, let's, let's marry some ambition with this. Yeah. So I had an opportunity to be an industry advisory, uh, uh, reviewer for embassies, uh, for the OBO for State Department that did that for five years.
And then they had an IDIQ, which is an, an open call. Yep. Uh, where you get a, an extended contract. And so we applied for that 400 applicants. They were, they hired 15 firms. The smallest firm they hired was us to do Wow. Embassies.
Yeah.
[01:20:48] Marlon Blackwell: So that was a five year contract. Now it's a six year we've done, uh, well just.
Finished a, uh, design and everything for, uh, a new American Embassy in the [01:21:00] Central African Republic, which is the poorest country in the world. Well, I think, I think and in the process of that built, we,
[01:21:06] Ati Blackwell: yeah, well, I think what I wanna say about that is that, you know, we, all the things that we started in the very beginning of the years as, you know, architect from scratch in this town, and then building slowly to a larger scale.
I think it's, and through Marlin's teaching that, I think that's a very important component because he's along the way with the stuff that we built and the teaching can help inform
[01:21:31] Cameron Clark: the, integrate with father. Yeah.
[01:21:32] Ati Blackwell: And the elevation of not only him as a professor, but also, uh. Our practice on the national level.
Mm-hmm. Like he wouldn't get invited to be in an industry reviewer for the embassy program.
Yeah.
[01:21:46] Ati Blackwell: Which now allow us to submit, to become one and was selected to become one of the 16 firm, you know, to design embassy. Well, why? It's because of his teaching. Mm-hmm. And he wouldn't have been asked to teach more than has thought everywhere.
[01:22:00] University of Michigan, Yale, Harvard, MIT, uh, all the places that he could have think of, you know, he has thought like, uh, semesters and they still ask him to do that. Uh, he doesn't have time to do it. Um, but he does, like he's You're going back to Yeah, yeah. Next. But I'm here in Arkansas, but I'm still here in Arkansas.
But I think that's the, I think that's what's important. Limits are important, and I think what we
[01:22:23] Marlon Blackwell: haven't feel here is important. Yeah. Yeah. The, the place. No, no, the place. This, you're here. This is the roots. Yes. And this is why I think we've been given opportunity, especially, uh, in Bentonville. Mm-hmm.
Again, we have to, nothing's given. Mm-hmm. You earn it. Yeah. That's the way, that's the Arkansas way. You don't, there's no, there's no crazy money and there's no free lunch here. You have to earn it. But the work that we have gotten to work on in Bentonville, like the Fadden School, thank God for the Walton, uh, design excellence program
mm-hmm.
[01:22:53] Marlon Blackwell: Basically is advocating for good design in northwest Arkansas. Yeah. Uh, the, you know, crystal Museum. [01:23:00] Uh, Christopher Bridge Museum. The opportunity to do the museum store. Yes. That was a competition. Yeah. We had to earn that. Yeah. But we, we did it and we proved that good design can be good business. That that store paid for itself in four months profits.
It's excellent. Wow. So, so that's sends a great message to, you know, uh, funders and owners. Mm-hmm. Um, and then the same with the Whole Health Institute. This just, we'll be opening up in May one. Yep. That was a competition.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
[01:23:25] Marlon Blackwell: And, and we did designs for it and we won on basis of ideas. Hmm. And we're competing with firms from Chicago, you know, from, you know, around the country.
So that to me, uh, is really important to Kim community to do the work here and to be willing to scale. There's, you know, the ledger work we've teamed on that. Yeah. Uh, and
[01:23:46] Ati Blackwell: we wanna continue to do more work. I mean, the thing is about, uh, I mean the good thing is we here. Mm-hmm. And we have proven that we can do work here, but there's also a lot of competition 'cause people know that, you know, this area's [01:24:00] good and is interested in building more.
So there's a lot more competition.
Yeah.
[01:24:04] Ati Blackwell: So we don't necessarily always have the opportunity. 'cause now there's a lot of people coming in, so we still have to. Uh, you know, so we're still doing our pushups. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we have to open markets. We can can't as well. We hope that it can be as easy for us, but it's not, it's not always.
Yeah.
[01:24:23] Cameron Clark: That's really respect. Like, there's a lot of respect there. Um, we only have a few minutes left, so I just wanna make sure we have, do you have any Yeah,
[01:24:29] Nick Beyer: let's, 10 10 is what is our stop? 10 15. Okay. Okay. Yeah, we're okay. That feels good. Yeah. So let's, let's recap kind of just as, as we're thinking through this, it sounds like 1992 is roughly when Marlon Blackwell Architects began here.
Mm-hmm. Here. Yep. And the first, we'll call it six years, y'all are trucking along, you're teaching, you're learning, you're doing a few projects a year, and then all of a sudden the Honey House happens. Honey House. In the Tower House. In the Tower house, and, and those kind [01:25:00] of put you on the map on the national map.
On the national map. And uh, I
[01:25:03] Ati Blackwell: didn't come here until 95, so before that was Mullin. And in five, I came. But more acting as a critique to is what, while I work locally. Yeah. Okay.
[01:25:13] Marlon Blackwell: But we started, yeah. In together. In oh one. In oh one. Yeah. Okay. On the ease of building one, that's when we, yeah. 400 square foot offer.
Okay.
[01:25:20] Ati Blackwell: Like, you know, we decided that, I think it had a lot to do with, by then we start to hire a lot of students and mm-hmm. And young architects and, uh, I became the defacto, uh, business person because I'm not spending half my day teaching. Right. Yeah. I'm here full-time.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. So
[01:25:36] Ati Blackwell: then you had to handle all the staffing and everything, which by the way is one of the most important thing mm-hmm.
Is that we cultivate local, and mostly in the beginning, a lot of young architects that are graduating from the university and cultivating their talent. Mm. And then we realized that we need to incorporate in order to provide the workplace that we [01:26:00] need mm-hmm. For them to thrive. Mm-hmm. So like, meaning that, you know, getting them health insurance and, you know, 401k like things like that.
Right. You know, being not, not only like, 'cause that's the whole thing, like the whole idea of the Faye Jones model didn't work for us because a lot of p not only the, the scale of the work. Yeah. But also like, uh, we realized so much on the talent that I hear on an everyday basis. Like you might see more than, or maybe occasionally me, but that's, every project relies on.
You know, engagement, all five more people mm-hmm. That work within that team. Yeah. And they work very closely with us, and they're very important. Some of them are no longer here. They went on and, you know, opened their own practice. Very successful, a lot of them, uh, elsewhere, so,
[01:26:47] Cameron Clark: well, and I really respect that.
But the, the latest, the latest book, and there's like, you list every, every person who's even been here before. I was really, I was really impressed by that. Well,
[01:26:55] Marlon Blackwell: yeah. I mean, I mean, it's, can't do it without, I mean, I, I, I read the Fountain head when I [01:27:00] was a student. I believed that. And then after I started really making work and real practice mm-hmm.
It's like, wow, there's a lot of bullshit in here. You know, it's like you gotta do it with a team, you've mm-hmm. You know, you've gotta empower that team.
Yeah. And
[01:27:12] Marlon Blackwell: you've gotta help them feel like part of the authors as well. So, you know, you're creating a framework by which these, uh, products can evolve.
Mm-hmm. And so, 'cause it's, as I said earlier, it's one thing to have ideas, it's another thing to actually execute. Yeah. And mm-hmm. And that's what we've been trying to prove. I know you were trying to summarize it. Yeah. So I don't have, so then,
[01:27:33] Nick Beyer: and guys, you guys move into that building. 2001, 2002 is the Tyson project, and you guys kind of start to pick up more steam locally.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then it's oh nine recession hits. But instead of shrinking, you're really starting to, to go outbound and start to really focus on, on growing the business Right. To really
[01:27:51] Ati Blackwell: scale up as well. Scale up.
[01:27:52] Marlon Blackwell: Mm-hmm. That's where Fayetteville High School came in. Again, we're part of a team. Mm-hmm.
Design, were the design lead team and then, [01:28:00] and then the school of architecture. Uh, uh, with a, uh, Oak Stanley and, and a again, these are, these are huge projects. Yeah. Like, say we're small firm.
[01:28:12] Cameron Clark: Well, what would you tell someone who's maybe at that stage right now where, hey, they, they have the opportunity to, I mean, it's, uh, it's risk risky to go on to that next.
That's a very big jump.
[01:28:23] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it, it, scale wise, yes. It, it is. Um, that's a great question. 'cause it's like, uh, whatever I say may have worked for us, may not work for other folks. I may not. It's like, what, what was that? Uh, guy Hunter s Thompson, you know, what, what, what's worked for you? And he goes, sex, drugs, and rock and roll, but doesn't work for everybody, you know?
Yeah. So, uh, same thing here. I, I think first of all, you, you, you've gotta learn. You have to have something to offer. Uh, first of all, if you're just doing what everybody else is doing and, and knock off, that's a [01:29:00] different business model.
[01:29:01] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[01:29:01] Marlon Blackwell: And that's a business model that's legit. And, you know, valid. I don't begrudge anybody going that route, but that's just not the route I would, I I we chose to go.
Yeah. Right. So, uh, I. I think you, you have to learn the language of your own discipline.
Hmm.
[01:29:18] Marlon Blackwell: Doesn't matter whether you're in real estate. Doesn't matter whether you're in medicine or whatever. You need to learn the, understand the language of your own discipline. And so you don't just get a degree and you're done learning.
Yeah. And then it's all about making money. It's, it's, the money will come. And that was one the thing I learned about, uh, selling so forth. Don't focus on the money, focus on the service, focus on, uh, purpose.
Mm-hmm.
[01:29:42] Marlon Blackwell: And I think, uh, that's key. I I often caution people to, you know, qualify the projects, you know, and, and put together the teams that can get those projects.
You
Yeah.
[01:29:54] Marlon Blackwell: You know, that's really key, getting the right team. But, and if you don't have the expertise or [01:30:00] maybe, uh, from a design standpoint, I really need to up my design game, well then team with the, uh, uh, somebody that might be smaller, may have a little bit more design edge, uh, and, and collaborate.
Yeah.
[01:30:11] Marlon Blackwell: And I think that's, that's a worthy thing to do. But I think it's also, I mean, uh, ti is really the more entrepreneurial of, of the two here. So I, I, uh, I'm Dr. No. And then, and then I always wind up saying yes. Well, I think
[01:30:25] Ati Blackwell: it takes, like, it takes
[01:30:27] Marlon Blackwell: two, I know we compliment each other, but point being is maybe you should be answering this.
'cause from a business standpoint, we just took, we did counterintuitive things.
Yeah.
[01:30:36] Marlon Blackwell: Like, oh, everything we need to shrink. And then we're like, we're like, but yeah, but there's this stimulus packet and people are. Investing in themselves. So I
[01:30:43] Ati Blackwell: think it's not that I think, I think, I think it actually was that.
No, I think it's, I didn't think you have to invest in yourself. I didn't even think about that. I think about like, well, shit, like, you know, the recession is hitting, what do we need to do to prepare ourselves? So like, we figure we need a new website. So it's like Yeah, but that's
[01:30:58] Marlon Blackwell: investing in yourself.
[01:31:00] Exactly. But what I
[01:31:00] Ati Blackwell: meant is like it's, it is, it's a matter of survival. Mm-hmm. And you sit there and you try to figure out what do we need in order to survive? Yeah. So like you have to go out there. Yeah. And start doing more. So things, things like every single time where I feel like there is, um, you know, uh, like a challenge and you kind of like sit there and how do you rise to that challenge?
Yeah. For example, uh, we are at the ending cycle of our embassy work. So we are not gonna, you know, we, we did the five years, and this is unlimited, IDIQ, meaning that any work can come to us. You don't have to re-interview for that. Mm-hmm. So now we are standing for another year, and then after that we fall off the cycle.
So knowing that we don't have this possibility of any new embassy, what do we do? Like, so every time you think about it and you're like, okay, I need to maybe hire a marketing person now mm-hmm. That does this full time. I need to have a business person that goes and, you know, do outreach on behalf of our company.
Mm-hmm. You kind of try to figure [01:32:00] out things, you pivot, you know, you kind of, yeah. Yeah. You have to always be on your toes, but
[01:32:04] Marlon Blackwell: you, you have to do what you need to. You have to have some core values though. Yeah. And you have to know what those are. And the people that are working with you need to know what those are.
Mm-hmm. What are your core values? What are the principles that help you overcome circumstance? Right.
[01:32:16] Cameron Clark: And what are yours?
[01:32:18] Marlon Blackwell: Well, uh, our, our principles is, you know, uh, we, you know, we try to use, uh, uh, judgment before haste, you know? Mm-hmm. We, we try to, uh, reflect on things before we make a decision. We look at the pros and cons, uh, that are implied by that.
We try to think about the fundamentals of what we do, which is scale proportion, uh, the proper use of materials, uh, natural light, you know, and, uh, environments that, uh, are healthy environments in many ways. Uh, our principles, uh, too are to provide great [01:33:00] service. We're not nickel dimers.
Mm.
[01:33:02] Marlon Blackwell: We, I refuse to, to make it transactional.
Our relationships. It's about service, but it's not being a servant.
[01:33:11] Cameron Clark: There's a
[01:33:11] Marlon Blackwell: difference between it service and being a servant.
[01:33:13] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[01:33:13] Marlon Blackwell: So we're not tools. We refuse to be a tool or somebody's pencil.
[01:33:17] Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm.
[01:33:18] Marlon Blackwell: We're, we're there to work with people, uh, together. Uh, and we're purpose driven. So keeping the everybody on the team, contractor, owner, design team focused on purpose mm-hmm.
On the project. Mm-hmm. Not on somebody's ego or somebody's just, uh, you know, the bottom line is part of that purpose, but it's, you know, what is the project and what, what does it offer back to society? You know, and that's part of the purpose. But what I'm saying is, is if you don't have those values, if you just, it's all about just a transactional thing and then the medium happens to be buildings, it could be anything.
Right. It could be a car wash. Uh. [01:34:00] Circumstance often directs you mm-hmm. Rather than you directing circumstance. And that's a, that's, I think, uh, Faye used to say, I have a set of core values that I live by and that I build by. Mm-hmm. And they're not that different.
Wow.
[01:34:20] Marlon Blackwell: And so, I, I feel similarly, our core values is, you know, we be kind to people.
Mm-hmm. You know, uh, you, you make your art and, uh, you don't just, uh, always swim downstream. Mm. Yeah. You know, you swim upstream as well to get something realized.
[01:34:39] Cameron Clark: Well, I think that's really evident. And just the, yeah. Both of you, it's just like, continue to innovate. Mm-hmm. Continue to work hard and, and go.
I mean, it's, it's not easy. It's not easy walking in seeing the bear, what you said as we were walking in, you gotta see the bear, which the bear's
[01:34:55] Marlon Blackwell: bigger than you. Yeah. And what do you do? Do you run away or do you fiercely [01:35:00] take on, you know, meta metaphor? That challenge? That challenge? Yeah. The challenges that are bigger, but because the purposes are higher, they're important and we have a strong belief that what we do is important.
It is what we leave behind that. Riches and dignifies a place. Mm-hmm.
Right.
[01:35:18] Marlon Blackwell: And the problem with most places is that they look like a lot of other places you can find anywhere in the country, and people's reality gets conditioned by that. Mm. And their expectations get lower.
[01:35:30] Cameron Clark: Mm.
[01:35:30] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. But what if you offer an alternative model, a new way of thinking about it, a new way of looking at it, then what you do is you interrupt their understanding of their, that reality, and you expand it, and you actually raise their expectations.
Oh, wow. That's really amazing. That can happen here. Mm-hmm. You know, the clinic right there would've never happened with that client if it wasn't for crystal bridges. Mm. Because the idea that art, uh, could be part of the [01:36:00] conversation in northwest Arkansas as a cultural transformer, right? Mm-hmm. A cultural catalyst that enriches our daily lives, which I think that museum was a, a, a catalyst allowed us to talk about a medical clinic that could have, uh, uh, a sense of identity and, uh, artfulness.
Uh, and yet at the same time, uh, introduce painterly qualities on the inside that could, the environment could be something that, uh, actually children want to go to rather than run away from, you know, those sorts of things. So that's, that's the kind of thing that you wanna leave behind.
Mm-hmm.
[01:36:40] Marlon Blackwell: Mm-hmm. And I think, uh, that's what makes Northwest Arkansas unique, is there's, here's a sort of concentration of, uh, artists, makers, designers, and visionaries and, uh, benefactors who are kind of, in many ways working together with a common purpose.
Mm-hmm.
[01:36:58] Marlon Blackwell: So good. And, and, [01:37:00] and, and, and that's why we're still here.
[01:37:01] Nick Beyer: Yeah.
[01:37:02] Marlon Blackwell: You know, and don't wanna go to
[01:37:05] Nick Beyer: New
[01:37:05] Marlon Blackwell: York or
[01:37:06] Nick Beyer: wherever. So, so it's amazing. Um, I think we've got like 10 minutes left, so I'll just bring us up to 2025. Yeah. Um, whether it's revenue or how, how many employees y'all have. I know you just opened an office in 2024 in Bentonville.
Just kind of talk us through the scale of Marlon Blackwell Architects, and then maybe talk a little bit about a project you're working on that you're really excited about. Mm-hmm. Finishing or maybe just finished.
[01:37:32] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[01:37:33] Nick Beyer: Well, uh,
[01:37:35] Marlon Blackwell: I think I, tonight together, I, uh, you know, the firm is, we're at 25 right now.
[01:37:41] Ati Blackwell: 26 I think.
[01:37:41] Marlon Blackwell: 26? Mm-hmm.
[01:37:42] Ati Blackwell: Okay.
[01:37:43] Marlon Blackwell: Uh. And a, a wide range of experiences and stuff. We have incredible people here. Mm-hmm. So, uh, that's the one thing we've worked really hard at is just building a strong team, uh, that believes in our, what we're doing, uh, and it, and feels like they're part of it. Mm-hmm. [01:38:00] Uh, it's really, really important.
Um, and we've seen our revenue, uh, increase with that, uh, with being able to do more. And we, we run a pretty tight outfit. I, again, it's the, the brilliant mind here of the business and entrepreneurial deal. She didn't like to hear that, but that's the truth. Uh, and so she makes that happen. But at the same time, we've learned how to work together, uh, to where we're now, I think, stronger as a design firm, because we've now find a great deal of alignment in our design sensibilities and what we can do.
I think that's fair.
[01:38:38] Ati Blackwell: Uh, yeah. I mean it, like, again, the project is massive a lot of times, so it's, it, it takes a lot. Well, whole, whole health is, and integration of a lot more, um, the interior spaces versus the outside, you know? Mm-hmm. So like, that's like a balance. Much more integrated. It takes a big team for a long time.
[01:38:56] Marlon Blackwell: Used to be you have these Yeah. Really robust exteriors and [01:39:00] stuff. You get the inside and it's like, oh, what happened? They ran out. But
yeah.
[01:39:04] Marlon Blackwell: But, but ti really asserted and kind of developed her own sort of design. Sensibility to compliment what we're doing outside. And then we work together both outside and inside.
So Whole Health is a great example mm-hmm. Where a project that we worked inside, out and outside in. Wow.
Yeah.
[01:39:22] Marlon Blackwell: And to make that specific to its place and that campus and the ravine and how it captures space before you go into the ravine where it's event space. We're using the local vernacular, the giraff stone.
It's never been used this way before in terms of the scale of it. Uh, we even made the stones larger so that it, it adjusted to being larger walls. This mm-hmm. You know, I'm talking about the giraff, uh, uh, on, it's, it's a vernacular that where people take fieldstone. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
[01:39:49] Marlon Blackwell: Cash crop here is rocks.
Yeah. So, you know mm-hmm. Use those. But, you know, it's a, it's, it's a project for us excited about, 'cause it's part museum, part [01:40:00] education center, part office building, uh, part national headquarters for ideas about whole health and, and as well as art bridges, which is getting, again, art out of museums, basements and into communities.
Yeah. I mean, I mean, amazing purpose,
[01:40:15] Ati Blackwell: but I think we would like to do more of that now that, that's coming to an end. You know, we, I think that has showcased like our ability, because that was something that we have done elsewhere, but not here. Mm-hmm. You find it. Skill wise, we don't get, it goes to other people.
Yeah. So I think this is with the exception of maybe school of Architecture, is this is the second big building that we've done in our local area.
[01:40:38] Nick Beyer: And how, how big was that? It,
[01:40:40] Ati Blackwell: uh, this one is 85,000 square feet. School of architecture was,
[01:40:45] Marlon Blackwell: uh, a hundred thousand.
[01:40:46] Ati Blackwell: A hundred thousand. Yeah. But then we associate with Folk Stanley, so that was great.
And this is on our own. Yeah. 85,000. And we had, you know, the parking deck. So we like to do more of that. And I think that's why in 20 25, 20 24, we [01:41:00] started with that branch office in Bentonville so that we could service our client better. That was the intention to know that we, with Walmart now to the northwest part, the northern part of northwest Arkansas, 'cause you know, sometimes 30 minute drive to Fayetteville is harder.
Also give our people that has to service the northern, um, Bentonville project, for example, a place to be. Mm-hmm. So that they don't, you know, of course whenever it's under construction, we have the trailer. But, um, you know, no, now we have the office, we don't have the, so now we the office, we can, we can have meetings there.
So that's what we wanna do. We have hired, uh, other people that we didn't have before, like business, uh, executive that can help, you know, kind of like go and visit potential client that we might not have time to do ourself mm-hmm. In the past. So that's, that's been great. And
[01:41:48] Marlon Blackwell: we're still going after the national work.
Yeah. So we're, uh, I can't talk about it, but we're invited for a headquarters of a very prominent. Uh, organization in Detroit. You know, we, um, [01:42:00] talking to folks in New York, big hospital there, you know, just their, uh, universities, there's just
mm-hmm.
[01:42:07] Marlon Blackwell: Things that we're still ambitious about that, but we don't, it's our anchor.
Our roots are here. Mm-hmm. So that's what we're really trying to continue to develop that. Some of the other projects I, that we're excited about are, are, we're excited about all of 'em. We're like children. They're all, we love them all. Uh, but the, uh, this project we're doing, uh, uh, to turn William Faulkner's Mule Farm into a, a writer's retreat to bring back folks from Mississippi, uh, who are trying to find their voices, writers a chance to re be in a place, uh, engage with Mississippi and have a place to stay.
It's amazing. Like a fellowship. Uh, the new Columbus, Indiana, uh, air traffic control tower will be the first aircraft control tower with public space.
Yeah. And, uh,
[01:42:52] Marlon Blackwell: that's a, that's a great project. This new UMS project, the, uh, orthopedic sports medicine mm-hmm. Uh, project, I think is gonna be [01:43:00] very innovative and, and beautiful, uh, simple brick buildings in a 30 acre meadow.
Mm-hmm.
[01:43:06] Marlon Blackwell: Um, that hopefully start construction soon. Uh, wonderful project. Uh, so we, you know, there's just, uh, and a host of things that we're doing. Uh,
[01:43:16] Ati Blackwell: yeah. So not, not just a practice. Yeah. But I think going forward too, like thinking about what happens, I. With us. It's like, as we, you know, housing, we're getting into housing.
That's the thing we're really excited about. Right. Oh, wow. Also like people within the organization that might come up, you know, uh, after us and Yeah. Touch thinking about that succession. Yeah.
[01:43:35] Marlon Blackwell: Hmm. Well, anyways, it we're, I think we're in a good place, but, you know, uh, we're, uh, how would you say moving forward?
Yeah, looking sideways.
[01:43:47] Cameron Clark: Well, I'm in a, I'm in awe. I just, it's, it's extremely impressive and, uh, especially being here. Um, last couple questions here. The, I think, you know, one, we like to ask why Northwest Arkansas, which I think you kind of [01:44:00] answered that, but with, and including in that, what's your vision for Northwest Arkansas for the next 10 years, 15 years, 20 years?
[01:44:12] Marlon Blackwell: Well, I think the vision is that the civic quality of the buildings and places in northwest Arkansas will continue to evolve, uh, in, in a, in a much more, uh. Uh, reflective and dignified way, you know, that, that it, you know, fundamental civic dignity recognizes all people with value, you know, and that they will continue to develop places where everybody feels welcome to come to.
And, uh, they, they, they feel the fidelity to craft and thought that go into well-designed spaces and environments and buildings, and it's something that enriches their daily life that makes them feel more alive, [01:45:00] right? Mm-hmm. By being there. And so, I hope that keeps happening. I think the design excellence program and, and, and I guess source the collateral projects that are happening around that.
I hope there's a, a, a truly a, a sincere and authentic housing initiative that will take place, uh, for workforce housing, for people, again, from, uh, that, uh, are in the market, or young people coming up, you know, that in the service industry where they have a place to live, you know, that's they can afford to own.
Mm-hmm.
[01:45:31] Marlon Blackwell: So we're gonna have to do a better job at that. And I think that's gonna be, I think, the next big thing.
Mm-hmm.
[01:45:36] Marlon Blackwell: Uh, and I see this issue of, uh, health, uh, really being a, a big, uh, uh, economic impact here. And I hope, uh, you know, one of the most impoverished building types, honestly, are. Schools and health projects.
Yeah. There's something formulaic of a lot of, a lot of them. I hope the models that are being [01:46:00] presented here will continue to inspire other entities to up their game, uh, when they come to Northwest Arkansas. Uh,
[01:46:09] Ati Blackwell: and I think like for us, like we came to Northwest Arkansas, I always thought that when I joined Modern here, like, uh, we'll only be here two years, we'll end up in California.
'cause that's where everything like new and modern was happening. Yeah. Particularly architecture. But I feel like Arkansas, particularly, this part of Arkansas has been such a tremendous place to be. I think we just happen to be here at the right time. There were a lot of businesses and, and individual that are making it what it is today, and we just kinda help contribute to that.
And we, we like to continue to do so. I think it's, I don't know, I don't know what happened here. Like of course, just all the pieces were in place and we just happened to benefit from it and now kind of help contribute to that. I remember talking to Alice one time. I don't know, we were walking, I don't know what it was, but I remember she said [01:47:00] it's the crystal.
I don't know if she was saying that, but it was like she said, it's the crystals. You know, like, I like to think it's the crystals. But I see tremendous growth and tremendous opportunity for everyone here in Northwest Arkansas. And I think it can only be better and if all of us, you know, that are lucky enough to contribute.
You know? Mm-hmm. To make it a home for us and for everyone else that come. I think that's, that's gonna be great. And I think it's funny because like, one of the thing that we see that people talk about us is that like, how incredible the work that we are doing here, because you can only do it here. Yeah.
Like, I can't imagine the ledger happening anywhere else. Mm-hmm. Because you can't build anything by Right. In most places, you know, like you have to kinda apply for special. And also the risk that somebody like us as an architect would take to allow someone to go up a building on their bike where you could like fall off it.
Like, if you are not careful, but we think, I mean, I remember asking more that [01:48:00] part, do we really wanna take this risk? It's like, can you imagine a kid falling off their bike when they're making the, the turn, you know, at the, whatever you call it. Yeah. And, and I remember Marlon saying like, yeah, of course, and somebody will fall.
But it's like, are we gonna prevent ourselves from doing this? It's like, so we're like, okay, like we'll deal with it with somebody.
I don't think I said that, but like, we make
[01:48:24] Ati Blackwell: like a higher, uh, rail, you know, we can anticipate that. Yeah.
[01:48:28] Marlon Blackwell: We solve, we suffer all that. Yeah. We solve for all of that,
[01:48:30] Ati Blackwell: but at the same time, it's like.
You have to take some risks Yeah. In some way to make something like that happen. Mm. Yeah. And it's like the first ever bikeable building Yeah. In the world. I think that saves a lot, not only for the folks actually fund the project, you know, the architect that will do it and take the risk. I mean, we have other partners in that design,
[01:48:50] Marlon Blackwell: design collaborators with that.
[01:48:52] Ati Blackwell: Yeah. Design collaboration. But, but, uh, a lot of it, I think a lot of things that are happening here, I mean, we're talking to this writer at D [01:49:00] and he's saying that it's an, he's calling it the, uh, American architecture. It's not region the 20, this is what century we're, is
[01:49:08] Marlon Blackwell: American architecture. Mm-hmm.
Embodies American values, principles. And, and,
[01:49:12] Ati Blackwell: and I know we talk about strangely familiar before. Right? Right. Like I, if you look at the, uh, the project that the new, the new house that we did at Blessing for the Shaw
mm-hmm. You know,
[01:49:22] Ati Blackwell: the front that are like very beautifully set up facade. Yeah. It's based on they wanted a courtyard house.
Mm-hmm. Oh,
[01:49:29] Ati Blackwell: because they wanted, they said as we age, they were in their seventies at the time. As we age, we wanted to be able to feel like you are outside without being outside. And one of the things was like, it's all glass. You still have privacy. They never feel ca cabin fever. Everything is one floor, but the topography slope.
So you see what's single level on the front, front end, you go in the back, it's actually overhanging like a cantilever. Mm-hmm. So to me that's a transformative typology of a courtyard house. Mm-hmm. Into [01:50:00] something. Completely radical. In fact, it's quite radical. A lot of houses are really radical in some way because we could do stuff like that, transforming a certain type, you know, and, and clearly making it strangely familiar, for example.
Yeah. And I think that something that a lot of times I don't feel like you can do it
Yeah. Elsewhere
[01:50:21] Ati Blackwell: because of the limitation of the land or something, you know, like that's always something. So that's what's interesting about being here, and I see so many, so much more possibilities as we go forward in the future.
[01:50:33] Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm. That's amazing.
[01:50:34] Ati Blackwell: Yeah.
[01:50:35] Cameron Clark: Yeah. That is, it's amazing. And it's, it's cool in y'alls field, you can see it based on the projects you've done. Mm-hmm. Um, and so last question here before as we wrap up, um, open-ended. How do you define success?
God,
[01:50:51] Marlon Blackwell: I wish you would've asked me how you define happiness. That's, uh, that's, uh, because I had a great George Bernard Shaw quote on that one. Uh,[01:51:00]
uh, but maybe, maybe there, maybe that is, uh,
I don't know. Maybe it's similar though. It's, you know, to me it's always been being so busy doing what you love to do. You don't have time to worry about whether you're happy or not, or successful or not, or whatever. You're just doing what you love to do. That's, to me, the real measure of success.
Do
[01:51:32] Marlon Blackwell: I love it.
And I think success means to me is one, you, you have to love it. You have to be willing to give great effort for it. And you have to be willing to suffer for it as well. If you need be, you know, you, you, because you love it so much. You, you, you know, it's not always gonna be roses and everything. And success is being able to, you know, understand purpose.
Why am I doing this? Yeah. [01:52:00] You know, and still loving to do it and finding ways to do it. And so to me, uh, success is an a static thing. You know, it's a, it's constantly in motion, you know, and that's how I look at it. That's a, I feel successful, but when I'm doing things and when I'm, uh, being productive and when I'm, you know, uh, you know, kind of in the pursuit of something, you know, so Walker Percy, you know, the writer said that, uh, the search is what we would all be on, uh, perhaps if we weren't so caught up in the sort of tedious ness of our everyday lives, right?
But then he said, but to be onto something, to be on in the search, uh. Is what's most important not to be onto something, is to be in despair. And I think it's really important to understand that we, that success to me is to be onto something.
Mm-hmm.
[01:52:57] Marlon Blackwell: To be in pursuit of something. And [01:53:00] I don't measure it monetarily.
I felt very successful, quite frankly, when we had very little
and
[01:53:07] Marlon Blackwell: are barely making ends meet and trying to dig outta debt.
Yeah. I still
[01:53:10] Marlon Blackwell: felt, but I'm onto something. I'm digging outta debt. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm moving and, and now we're in a different sort of economic situation. Some 30 years later I still feel no less successful.
Uh, then though I, that I do now, I just feel like, ah, you know, it, it, yeah, this other stuff comes along with it. Yeah. It wasn't the end, right? Yeah. Yeah. End point. So I, that is a messy and is not easy, easy to solve and, you know, a soundbite. I wish I could do that, but, uh, you know, uh, success is, you know, doing your thing, man.
[01:53:46] Cameron Clark: Yeah. So good. Thank you.
[01:53:49] Nick Beyer: Well, I'll wrap us up here. One thing we like to do at the end of each episode is just talk through, oh, I thought you were gonna say call hos don't,
[01:53:55] Cameron Clark: don't make us call hos. Please.
[01:53:57] Nick Beyer: No. One thing we love to do is just, uh, share [01:54:00] kind of our biggest takeaways from it. Yeah. For, for our listeners too.
Be great. As I think through both of your stories. Hmm. Hard work really marks, um, both, both you from moving over here to mm-hmm. The scholarship, pursuing your ac academics and then you working 12 hour days, six days a week, paying your way through school. I, I feel like both of your histories are really marked with hard work.
And I think you can see it really translate well into how the business has grown and also probably the, the values that you've instilled in, in your employees and, and everyone who works here. You're very team oriented. Yeah. And I think that's, um, a great result of hard work. And so I think that's the, the first thing that's super clear.
Um, the second piece is pushing the envelope. And I know we talked about strangely familiar is mm-hmm. Kind of one of y'all's mottoes here. But you look at the projects that y'all have done and, and whether it's local or national, I mean, they're totally different. And, and it's, I mean, I'm looking at the, the, the bee, the, the, uh, honey [01:55:00] house, the bee house behind the honey house behind you.
And it's like, that was 1998. That's like almost 30 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And it's contin that, that, that, that's continued for 30 years. Keeps
[01:55:12] Marlon Blackwell: going. I gotta say that little project. We won the architectural review outta London's emerging, uh, architects were one of the five. Winners. I got to deliver a talk based on that project to the Royal Institute of British Architects and then go to Copenhagen to receive the prize.
That's amazing. $40,000 project people. Let's use b's. That's amazing. And the fee was the $4,000 fee that I got, went to pay for the photography. Uh, and, and, and so that way I could get it out there in the world. I mean, it's kind of dumb, right? But I mean, it's this investing, you constantly have to invest.
That was the other thing, the success. Never just take the money and run, invest, put it back, folded back into what you're doing. Mm-hmm. And we do that. We're still doing that. We're, yeah, we're not, we're not [01:56:00] satisfied. We, we, we just hired Pentagram, which is one of the most wellknown, uh, uh, graphic design firms in the world.
Uh, they're out of New York to do our new website and kind of mm-hmm. Help us rebrand, help us think about the future. Wow. You know, because, you know, we want to provide a future, not just for us, but for all the folks here, you know? Wow. So, yeah. And just kind of going
[01:56:21] Nick Beyer: back,
[01:56:21] Marlon Blackwell: I mean, I think huge investment.
Yeah. Right.
[01:56:23] Nick Beyer: It's,
[01:56:23] Marlon Blackwell: you constantly have to keep doing that. Yeah.
[01:56:25] Nick Beyer: And that's, again, pushing the envelope. And I think, I think the, the story that really summed it up for me was you initiating a meeting with the CEO EO in New York and just mm-hmm. Getting it out there and like,
[01:56:35] Marlon Blackwell: who is this guy,
[01:56:37] Nick Beyer: audacity
[01:56:37] Marlon Blackwell: of this guy to interrupt my lunch, you know?
And, and, but I would make shit up just so I could go to New York to put myself, 'cause I knew like selling a Bible, if I can sit across the table in person, not by email, not on phone call, you know, then people are, are, there's incivility and courtesy enter in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's really key because people are general civil mm-hmm.
In [01:57:00] general. And
[01:57:00] Ati Blackwell: we try to say that to students. Like we actually, uh, sponsor at least one minority NOMA architect, which is National Organization of minority architects. So we try to provide a place for them to be able to come and do a summer intern with us. Mm-hmm. Now it's going to our fifth year. And every time I go there, you know, and, and again, like any students that do internship here, I try to tell them it's like this place is really special.
This place, meaning that here Northwest Arkansas is really special. Like, you guys are really special. Like, just have the audacity to actually know that you can do anything. You can pursue anything. Yeah. And I think the product that we make here are being looked at as something really special. Mm-hmm. And it's not like.
We are sometimes fascinated by other people's fascination with the work that we do here.
Mm-hmm.
[01:57:49] Ati Blackwell: When we are sitting here doing, like, doing it for half they what they can do mm-hmm. Elsewhere, and it's out of our own, you know, wanting to do more. Mm-hmm.
[01:57:58] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. Uh, I
[01:57:58] Ati Blackwell: think that's the whole thing. [01:58:00] I, I think
[01:58:00] Marlon Blackwell: asking critical question
[01:58:02] Ati Blackwell: Yeah.
[01:58:03] Marlon Blackwell: Always whenever we present it with a project is how might it be otherwise? So here's how it is, here's the status quo,
here's what
[01:58:10] Marlon Blackwell: it is, how might it be otherwise? And then go, what if? And then imagine And just taking people on that journey. Yeah. So they understand where they're at or I'm talking about clients in this Yeah.
Where they're at, uh, you know, what their desires are. And then, and then it's like, well, what if we did this?
[01:58:31] Cameron Clark: Yeah.
[01:58:32] Marlon Blackwell: And it opens up a whole new set of possibilities. Mm-hmm. And those are the kind of clients that we have been fortunate, I think, to work with who will come along the, this journey of kind of discover and, and trying to find wonder and dignity and joy in the project.
Mm-hmm.
[01:58:50] Marlon Blackwell: That they can benefit from, from an economic standpoint, but also from, uh. A people standpoint. Yeah. They're people and the [01:59:00] people they also serve. So That's so good. Yeah.
[01:59:02] Nick Beyer: Last thing. 'cause I know time, but Yeah. Um, as we think through, just again, the last big thing I learned, I think you even captured it there, this where creativity meets discipline.
I think a lot of people don't associate discipline with creativity. In fact, quite the opposite. It's the opposite. You have to discipline the
[01:59:19] Marlon Blackwell: imagination. Mm-hmm. That's what we teach. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When we're teaching, we're trying to discipline the imagination, but you don't imagine out of nothing.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
[01:59:28] Marlon Blackwell: If you don't know your own history of your discipline, you don't know, uh, you know, the basic fundamentals and values and skill sets. You, you, you can imagine all you want.
Mm-hmm.
[01:59:39] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah. You're not gonna make anything. Right. I
[01:59:42] Ati Blackwell: think the discipline aspect from a business standpoint too, is very, very important.
You know, there's always challenges like a client or budget or whatever, like just be disciplined enough to know that I want this project built. I want it to be successful. What are the things that. We can do to make it a success. So [02:00:00] a lot of time the challenge is something that we can overcome. You just have to do it, you know?
And it's very hard sometimes, like a lot of time you'll be like, I'm not doing this, I'm just gonna walk away. Like, don't walk away. You have it within you to keep doing it and make it as successful as you want it to be. Mm-hmm. Not for others. 'cause a lot of time it'd be like, okay, what do you want? I'll do it for you.
Like, and then you're like, oh yeah, don't look at that project wasn't mine. The client wanted this. Yeah. We've never have a single one that we have to excuse for that because the challenge is on us to make it as successful in our eyes, you know, not just in the client's eyes, because that's very, very hard to do in architecture where you like, give up your design, you know, to
Yeah.
[02:00:45] Ati Blackwell: App piece something. Either budget or client didn't like it. It's like, that's why when people ask us all the time, it's like, do you guys must have great client? Or we have clients just like you guys. The thing is to keep your eyes on what you want. What is the [02:01:00] matrix of success for you? And it also is because it's like, this project are successful to our client because otherwise they won't build it.
Mm-hmm. But is it successful for us? Yeah. I would say every single one of of it, we are happy, you know, to have it the way it is because we made it that way.
[02:01:18] Cameron Clark: Yeah. Appreciate, appreciate y'all coming on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, how can, how can everyone get ahold of Marlon Blackwell Architects? They, um, get, if they reach, wanna reach out for a project or how, however, I was anyway, like best way.
Anyway.
[02:01:31] Ati Blackwell: I got the website, the phone call, the social media, you can see us, you know, comment. Yeah. 42 E Center.
[02:01:38] Marlon Blackwell: Yeah.
[02:01:39] Ati Blackwell: Come, come with you Every day.
[02:01:40] Marlon Blackwell: We, we've had folks just walk in, you know, say, Hey, I've got an idea for a project, you know? Yeah. And then, but yeah, sometimes it's just, you know, info@marlonblackwell.com.
Yeah. And then yeah, just we're easy to find. Yeah. We're in a geographical oddity, right. We're in northwest Arkansas. Everything's, you know, 20 minutes [02:02:00] away, so Yeah. 15
[02:02:01] Cameron Clark: to 20 minutes. So, well, thank y'all again. Yeah. Thanks for your time. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate
this.
[02:02:06] Cameron Clark: Thank you for listening to this episode of NWA Founders, where we sit down with founders, owners and builders driving growth here in northwest Arkansas.
For recommendations are to connect with us, reach out at nwa, founders@gmail.com. Lastly, if you enjoyed this episode, then please consider leaving a rating, a review, and sending it to someone who you think would benefit from it. We'll see you in the next episode.