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Join us in this engaging episode of "Mending on the Fly" as we sit down with Tim Cammisa, a renowned figure in the fly fishing community. Tim shares his journey from humble beginnings to becoming an influential educator and innovator in the sport. Discover essential tips for fly tying, the importance of a strip set, and the thrill of fishing in unique locations like Iceland. Whether you're a seasoned angler or a beginner, Tim's insights and stories will inspire and educate you.
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a comment on what you found most interesting in this episode! Follow Tim on his social media platforms for more tips and updates.
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a comment on what you found most interesting in this episode! Follow Tim on his social media platforms for more tips and updates.
Timestamps:
- [0:00] Introduction to Tim Cammisa
- [2:00] Getting Started with Fly Tying: Tools and Budget
- [10:00] The Importance of the Strip Set in Fly Fishing
- [18:00] Fly Fishing in Iceland: A Magical Destination
- [28:00] Tim’s Background and Love for the Outdoors
- [39:00] Memorable Fishing Experiences and Lessons Learned
- [50:00] Tim’s Book and Insights on Competitive Fly Fishing
- [1:02:00] Virtual Fly Tying Classes and Community Engagement
- [1:06:00] Tim’s Top Confidence Flies for Brookies
- [1:07:00] Closing Thoughts and How to Follow Tim Online
Creators & Guests
What is Mending on the Fly?
"Mending on the Fly" is a podcast hosted by Devin Carlson that delves into the world of fly fishing, focusing on its therapeutic and environmental aspects. Through engaging discussions, expert insights, and captivating stories from the water's edge, each episode takes listeners on a serene journey down the river to explore the profound impact of fly fishing on personal well-being and conservation. Whether you're a seasoned angler looking to perfect your craft, a newcomer navigating the complex world of fly fishing equipment, or someone passionate about safeguarding our precious waterways, this podcast is for you. It's an invitation to connect with nature, dive deep into the art of fly fishing, and contribute to the vital cause of conservation. So, grab your gear and prepare to wade into the enriching world of fly fishing with Devin. See you on the water!
Untitled project from SquadCast
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devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: [00:00:00] Today I'm thrilled to host Tim Cammisa, a true innovator in the fly fishing world. Alongside his wife Heather and their children Angelo and Fina, Tim has nurtured a family deeply embedded in the sport, enriching the community with shared experiences and a passion for the great outdoors. Tim has become a pivotal figure in educating anglers with a legacy built on demystifying the complexities of fly tying and fishing through his popular platform, Trout and Feather. His work spans from high quality YouTube tutorials, which have amassed over 5 million views, to hands on teaching and workshops, and international trips. His book, Fly Tying for Everyone, further cements his role in bringing advanced techniques to everyday anglers. Join me as I learn from the best about the methods, stories, and passion of a person who's not just chasing fish, but also shaping the future of fly fishing. Tim, welcome to Mending on the Fly.
Thank you so much for being here.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you're welcome, Kevin. Thanks so much for having me. And I appreciate everything [00:01:00] you're doing for fly fishing as well. I think, I don't think a lot of people realize how much time and energy and effort goes into any content, you know, let alone podcasts. So, you know, everything you're doing is extremely appreciated.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: No, that's awesome, man. Yeah, I know, I know you've had a long, a long journey, longer than mine at least, fly fishing, um, and also trying to Really expose more people to the world of fly fishing. And it's something that's benefited me greatly. Um, more on like a mental health level really than anything else.
Just being able to be out on the waters is kind of what the draw is for me. And I just hope we can, as a, as a community can help communicate that to a wider audience. Um, but before we dive into anything for. Someone who's interested in fly fishing or fly tying, because it might be a little bit more accessible.
It's something you can do at home. What do you need to get [00:02:00] started? Because I know, I know that I have spent far too much money and far too much time going to different fly shops and buying vices and, uh, all sorts of different materials and bobbins and scissors. What, what does someone need and how much money do they need to spend? start enjoying this incredible arts and crafts activity, this meditative arts and crafts
activity that we, we, we all appreciate so much.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Wow. That's a loaded question in a sense. And, and I appreciate everything, every aspect that you brought up, up, up with it, because the short answer is we have like a, I can give like a defined set of tools and,
you know, kind of the, the, the catch all the starter, the beginner set to get started. Um, I'll, I'll first preface to your audience.
If, if you're getting into fly time to save money, don't just get out of it right now. Okay. Cool.
Go to your local fly [00:03:00] shop, buy a few dozen flies, contact me. I'll put you in contact with a great fly tire. They can fill a box of flies for you and you'll be set for 10 years. So let's get that out of the way.
There's like 1 percent of 1 percent that probably saves money in fly time.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Sure.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I don't think that's what it's about. I mean, for me at least, and for so many anglers that I'm friends with and, and, you know, and so many anglers I've talked to over the years, Fly tying is like, it's this incredible extension of fly fishing, where you truly have this, this ability to be able to sit down at your vice, where I know you're sitting in front of your fly tying area right now.
I have one, two, I have four vices around me right now. I have like all these fly tying stations around my house. And there's
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: that many hands.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yeah, there's constantly these creations just coming off of them, but it's so, it's just so incredible to be able to say, I'm going to tie this fly on this vice right here, head to the water tomorrow.
And then, you know, in less than 24 hours, I'm going to catch a rainbow trout on this. And it's on a fly that I designed. I tied myself. There's just something that's, I [00:04:00] don't know. It's just so amazing about that, that I think For those of us who've been tying for as many decades as me, which I've been tying for over three decades, it's easy to kind of lose that, that aspect of fly time, that, that we, we truly have this connection nature based on something that we're doing, you know, and it's built upon all of the observations and everything else.
It's just so just incredible about it. Now, the.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: The meat and potatoes part. I mean, yeah, I mean, you're going to have a little bit of money at the beginning. And the short answer is, you know, if you think it's going to be something you're, you're going to stick with, meaning you have good dexterity, you're able to, you know, do a lot of, you know, fine motor skills with your hands and your fingers and you enjoy a challenge because that's what it is.
Like there's a steep learning curve. To anything, but for those people who are like, I'm up for this. I have this growth mindset. I know there's going to be a couple roadblocks, you know, road blocks or some speed bumps along the way. But, but I'm, I'm all in for that. Like,
absolutely. Like buckle up, like set a budget and [00:05:00] kind of go from there.
And whenever I say set a budget. It's because you're going to need to have some tools. I mean, you're going to need to have a fly tying vice and you can get, you can get vices that are in the 40, 50 range up to the, you know, multiple thousands of dollar range. And it's like, where's, where's the honey spot?
Where's the sweet spot. And there, there's not a, there's not an answer for that. It really just depends upon how much money do you want to spend? Do you want to spend a hundred bucks? Like I have a vice that I can tell you, I can recommend for a hundred. If you want one at 300, you want one at 500. Like you basically for, for everyone out there, it's almost like.
Find your price point and then buy, just research everything around that price point, and then just go with the one that, that has the best reviews or you know, based on some other fly tires that you've talked to. Because I mean, we're very lucky right now, Devin. There's so many great just quality vice in that a hundred to $150 range, which you know that that's still a chunk of money, but.
At the end of the day, say you get into fly tying, you buy 150 vice, you [00:06:00] use it for a year, two years, and you decide it's not for you. You can sell it on eBay or Facebook marketplace and get a pretty, you know, significant percentage of that vice back. So don't look at it as you're dropping one 50 in a bucket and you're never going to see that again.
Like there will be a return on that money, either from that fly time perspective or from the notion of reselling it.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: And, And there's so much, there's so much instruction that's readily available for free. Online, which is like, you know, it's not, you're, you're not going to get advice and then sit there and not know what to do with it.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, cause you need your basic tools. You're going to need advice. You're going to need thread. You're going to need some scissors. Uh, you're going to need to learn how to whip finish. I mean, there's going to be some, some basic tools. And I think anyone can do a quick Google search and just say, if you're thinking about what, let's just say trout fly time, you can do a search and say, what fly time tools do I need to tie trout flies?
Yeah. And you're going to see there's less than a dozen that you're going to need. I mean, I think back to whenever I first got into fly [00:07:00] tying, my first like starter set was a set of tools from Cabela's or Bass pro shops. It came with this little wooden box. I don't remember how much it was maybe, you know, 29, 99
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: was going to say 30 bucks at Orvis back in like 92 when
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yes. And they're not that much more expensive than that now. I mean, they might be 39 99.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Right.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: No. So it's almost like you start with that set. They're not going to be the best tools in the world there. You're probably going to have to upgrade your tools over time, but they'll at least, you know, what's your appetite and get you thinking about, do I like this or not?
And then once you got, you know, your starter set and everything, you got to make that decision. Like what flies am I going to tie? And for, for those people who are already fly fish. It's basically like, what are the three flies that you fish the most often go and research and buy the materials for those three.
And if you don't fly fish already, then it's, you're kind of can throw it up in the air. You don't have to do a search and say, you know, what fly should I tie first? Because most people are going to tell you like a, a woolly bugger or a mop fly. Like that's going to be it. [00:08:00] Those are the two most popular, you know, quote unquote first flies now.
But if, for those people who are just like, I want to get into fly tying as a hobby, You can tie anything you want. It doesn't matter because if you're not going to fish with it, you're just doing it for your creativity purposes anyway. But there's a reason why people recommend certain patterns over others.
And it's because there's these skills and there's some beginning skills that lead to intermediate skills that eventually lead to, you know, success. This expert or this top tier level that some people aspire to get to. So, you know, I think that's kind of the cool part about fly tying is that it truly is like those books that I read when I was a kid.
You get to choose your own path and just, you get to the end of the chapter and it's like, well, if you want to go this direction, turn to page 20. If you want to go to this direction, turn to page 85 and you can turn to whatever page you want. And there's nothing wrong with that.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Right. And so for, let's just say for someone who's never even gone fly fishing, why would you get into fly tying? What, what has it done for you?[00:09:00]
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Well, I'm that person. I mean, I'm, I'm. I'm the person you're describing right now, right now, Devin, whenever I was 10 years old, that's when I took an afterschool fly tying class that my parents signed me up for.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Dude, same, honestly, same here, nine years old, my parents took me to an Orvis store in Rochester, New York. Same exact thing.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: and the addiction starts. I
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I'm, I'm not sure what it was for you. I'm, I hope you share for me. It was kind of this notion of I get to this class. I love the outdoors. I mean, I was always a curious kiddo that just loved to just get, get dirty, play in the mud, you know, walk around in the little stream.
I mean, that was me fishing. I liked, I didn't love, I mean, I vividly remember waking up far too early when I was a little boy, just falling asleep stream side with, well, my dad was trout fishing. I, it was cool. I didn't love it. It was cool. So, which is why I like, I appreciate that. My son loves it now. And you know, at his age and you know, he's eight years old, he loves it.
And I, at eight years old, I don't know if I [00:10:00] loved it as much as he did, but then they'd sign me up for this class. And it was kind of like, Oh, cool. And I remember Devin, For this class, I'm sure there was a, this connection between fly tying and fly fishing, but I don't remember it. I just remember there were a bunch of, I don't want to use the word old, but just experienced gentlemen that were the instructors for this class.
They reached the
Oh yeah, they, they wreaked of cigar smoke varnish, like weird glues. They all had beards. I mean, they were all in their seventies, older,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Right.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you know, they were teaching us how to tie flies, like wet flies, these traditional Catskill ties and, and to spin deer hair aside from the wooly bugger.
And there was just something that I just found like fascinating about it. Bless you. I, I don't know what it was. I wish I could tell you. I wish I could go back in time, but. I know I had this Plano fishing box and I would tie a fly and I remember opening the drawer and I would set it in that drawer and I closed the drawer and then I would watch them, you know, explain how to tie another fly and I would, I would tie [00:11:00] that fly.
And it was such a challenge to get my fly to look just like theirs. And it rarely did. And I think that was for me, it was, it was this challenge aspect where I think the words you use were, it was kind of like a craft. It was like this, it was a craft, but it wasn't like sewing or something that just came naturally.
There was a challenge. There was that aspect of it that just drove me crazy. And I worked tirelessly, like for, I don't know about you, like. hours. Like my parents would be throwing parties and there'd be a bunch of people in our house. And I was like the, the weird kid that was in his room with the door closed.
They're like, what's this kid doing? Like I didn't, I wasn't going through an emo phase. I was tying flies like underneath, you know, with, with a vice from the seventies and I just facet, I didn't want to leave that, that aspect.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah. I get it. I mean, I was on the couch with like a TV table. Mostly like pink and bright orange fur and I guess I suppose you could call them woolly boogers But I mean, there's just hair everywhere My mom's vacuuming the couch out the next day [00:12:00] because it looks like a you know, some wild animal
Teletubby or something came to town But yeah, I'm with you.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: You and I stuck with it. There was something that kept us going.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: I took a long a long hiatus I'm I'm back in it now, but You know, lost a couple decades, uh, Anya there, but, um, but like the passion remained and it just took, it just took finding it again. Um, which is great. Um, kind of before we get into your background too, you do have such a, you have an incredible, um, social media presence on YouTube. People can find you on YouTube, on Instagram. Um, I imagine those are your kind of two. main, uh, social media outlets, but, um, and probably Facebook and all the others. But, um, what is your, and I know [00:13:00] trout and feather was established the website, which is a fantastic website, by the way, great blog, great resources. People should go check it out and the YouTube and the Instagram. But what, when you started it, Uh, kind of the, the social media enterprise that you're, you're now engaged in what started that. What is your goal? What's kind of the end state for you?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I wish I had a great answer for you because to tell, you know, you and your listeners about my background, I'm a teacher. I teach elementary school, sixth grade math and science. So that's my day job. And a lot of people sometimes are thrown off whenever I tell them that, because they're like, But you do all this fishing stuff and I'm like, you're darn right.
I do like, I don't get a lot of sleep. Like I'm very, I'm kind of like, I just go, you know, I'm like the, my, they always called my dad, the Energizer bunny. And I think the apple never falls far. So getting to that idea of like social media, I am for years, I've never been [00:14:00] someone that. Love social media. I don't like it's there.
I don't want to call it a necessary evil because it's not even necessary. I mean, it's, it's something that I could stop tomorrow and my life would go on. I'd be perfectly content.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Sure.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: The aspect of like, why do I push in that direction? I mean, number one, whenever people ask what, what am I trying to get out of this?
I mean, I have a day job. My goal is to help others. get better at fly fishing and fly tying. I mean, that's, that's the goal. At the end of the day, it's just to help people get over this steep learning curve because I had it. Luckily, I was very motivated. I had really good mentors. My parents would drop me off at the library.
I was, I was the boy that would check out like 10 books, all fly fishing and fly tying, bring them home. I would take Diligent notes throughout the books, return them, get another 10. I would go to the fly shop and rent VHS tapes and, and just listen. Cause I knew there had to be like a silver bullet fly in there.
Some techniques, some fishing technique that, that was going to help me catch them, you know, a hundred more fish or [00:15:00] some magical cast that Mel Krieger or lefty Craig could, you know, could teach me that
that was going to be it. And I was going to be this master caster. And I just continue to push myself and research and learn.
And. I know a lot of people out there are like that. And those are the people that I'm drawn to. But then I also know that idea that some aren't. And, and I, you and I both, you know, we were texting before this podcast, like you were putting your family, your kiddos to bed. I was putting my kiddos to bed. I was like, I'll be five minutes.
It was 15 minutes. It wasn't five. I wasn't trying to lie. It was, it just stretched a little bit. And,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Time is finite.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: yes, but I get that with other people as well. And whenever I think about like all the work that I've, I put into learning about fly fishing and tying when I was younger, there's, there's kind of two trains of thought.
It's, do you want people to a struggle like you struggled and it remained a mystery that they never end up solving? Or do you want to help give them a few puzzle pieces along the way for them to put them together in, you know, in an order that makes sense [00:16:00] to them. So they have this, you know, this better resolution.
And for me, it's the latter. I, that's kind of where I take the social media aspect. And I tend to post on as many platforms as possible. Uh, it doesn't matter if it's Pinterest, Tik TOK, Instagram, Facebook, you know, X threads, it doesn't matter. I find me on all of those platforms. It's a little bit more time to do that, but, uh, Like I was at a fly tying event last week and I was talking to this, this gentleman and he's younger, a little bit younger than the two of us.
And he's like, Hey, I saw you before. I'm like, Oh, where did you see me? Thinking he was going to say one of the fly fishing shows that I, that I headlined in Denver, New Jersey.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: no, he's like, tick tock. I saw your tick tock page. And it's
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: hilarious.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: awesome. Like, that's the whole reason because that's another audience.
Like I know my demographic on YouTube. I know my demographic on Facebook. And it's like, that's not the same demographic that's watching tick tock. So for those people that are on tick tock, it's like, we're reaching another crowd. Like we're reaching tomorrow's crowd. And that's, that's a [00:17:00] cool thing to help that crowd out as well.
Cause I remember being in that crowd. It was pretty darn tough when I was in that crowd and
now they have these great resources available. So I'd rather be considered this person. That helps somebody out versus that person. It was like, Hey, this is my information. Stay away. You got to figure it out yourself, kid.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah. I love that. I, uh, I mean, I think, I think we're, we're kind of, uh, aligned that way in the sense that it's like, you know, we're just doing this to help people. Um, But, you know, one of the really cool things I've been able to do just in the first, you know, I think this is the ninth episode, uh, just in these nine episodes is talk to, like, these incredible people, including yourself, who, Are out there doing this stuff just to help other people, you know, I mean, my first episode was with, um, Susan Gates with casting for recovery, uh, and like just, uh, you know, getting women is suffering with breast cancer out on the water for the first time. Um, And like [00:18:00] a lot of them turn to fly tying afterwards and
continue fly fishing, you know, and then to have resources like you online, um, and by the way, you, I mean, you do a phenomenal job, uh, especially like with your shorts and your, even like your 10 to 25 minute videos. They are awesome, man. Really, really like great quality content. Uh, fun to watch. You're a super engaging guy. And so I just want to say congrats on
making making such a great channel, uh, and something that I want to watch and subscribe to and, um, learn from. So, you know, that's awesome.
Um, in your
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: by the way, I appreciate that, which thank you. I truly do. We're very lucky though, because I don't know about you, Devin. There's so many great YouTube channels out there that have bigger followings than me and much smaller followings. Like we're, we're so lucky to be able to go to the search engine, type in Whatever basically, and have this wonderful channel about fly fishing or [00:19:00] tying just pop up and just say like, Oh, let's see what their journey is going to be like and follow along for a couple of years.
So
I'm just, I'm very jealous of people who are getting into fly tying and fishing today, because it's like, Oh my gosh, if it was this easy for me years ago, like I can't even, it's, it's really tough to comprehend just how far we've come even in the last decade compared to the prior 20 or 25 years to that.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: for sure. I just propped my iPhone up behind my vice and, and, uh, you know, learn to tie a couple of flies. It's, uh, I mean, it's like awesome, a lot easier now than when I was
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh, for sure. For sure.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: in your. You, um, write that in 1989 was your first year of fly time. What was, uh, what was life for you? Like before 1989? Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I was a decade old in 1989. So I was fourth grade. Um, I can't tell you much prior to that. I was this, this energetic kid [00:20:00] that was just trying to figure things out. I love to ride my bike around. I mean, I had this bike. I was, I had a neighborhood full of kids my age and I was kind of like the leader of the neighborhood and we would take excursions in the woods.
Um, yeah. We take excursions to find ice cream stands. I mean, we were just kind of a group of kids that just kind of did our own thing. It's not like we, we didn't parent ourselves by any means. I mean, I'm sure our parents knew what was going on in our minds. We were hiding everything from them,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Oh yeah. It was like, stay, stand by me in the Goonies
all just
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I mean, we,
we had parents that were kind of hands off that were kind of like, all right, there's this group of kids and they're going to figure things out, which is kind of the way that, you know, I pair it now. I'm very fortunate. I live on a little, a little cul de sac is around 10 houses. And I think eight of the 10 have children or nine of the 10.
We all have children around the same age. And we're kind of like in that same mentality where So I will text the rest of the parents and say, Hey, anyone have eyes on the kids? And so they'll say, yep, I see him. They're back in the woods. Like, so it's kind of cool [00:21:00] that I'm able to let my children experience it this way.
Kind of like I did, because it's not like that for everybody. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a different world from, from 1989, you know,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah, and so you, you talk about your two grandfathers, uh, Jack and Angelo, um, can you talk a little bit about, I, I, I, I, love what you wrote about grandpa Jack, um, and that he instilled a drive in me to never give up and was one of my most cherished, one of my most cherished life memories was the day he took me fly fishing, not to learn himself, but to simply enjoy watching his grandson fish. Um, uh, like I, you know, I just love that there's, there's people have, um, similar little, um, memorials to family members in, especially in their fly fishing books, oddly enough. Um, [00:22:00] can you talk a little bit about your, your, your grandfathers and their influence on you?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yeah, yeah, of course. Um, I mean, I was lucky. I had, you know, a wonderful set of parents. My parents are still alive and their parents as well. My grandfather, Jack, Jack Burke, he was definitely that just that rock solid figure. He was married to Lottie Burke. My, my Nan, I called her my grandmother. And,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Lottie. What like, what a name. Um,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh, Lottie Lorraine, really cool name.
Really cool name. Old school.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: yeah, it's, uh, what's that baseball movie, Tom Hanks and, uh,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh, the Sandlot. No, No, no,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: no. no.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh, I know what you're
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: women, the women's baseball
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I know.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
There probably was a Lottie in there, but sorry anyways.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: could have been, uh,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you're going to drive me crazy. That's my father in law's like favorite movie. He's watched like 300 times. He's going to kill me if he hears this podcast.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: It's a good
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Um, yeah, I will. [00:23:00] So I don't know.
There were, there were wonderful people. My grandfather liked me when he was a school teacher, he taught middle school and high school. So a little bit older, um, students. But he retired relatively younger and they bought this trailer. It wasn't a, an Airstream. It looked like an Airstream was called an Avion trailer.
And they joined this club called the Avion Travel Cade. I think don't quote me on that.
And it was basically like a group of people that all had these trailers, bunch of silver cans of beer driving around the country in these caravans. If you want to call it like that, they'd set up. Shop at a campground.
They'd stay for a week, a month, like, and then they go to another one. And, you know, they had a house, you know, close to where I lived as well, but it was just a group of like, like minded people. I think they're still doing it to this day. And there's a group of people that have airstreams to do the same.
And sometimes the airstream people would interact as well. So, um, They would just travel all summer and for many summers, my parents would kind of let my sister and I go with them and we would hang out with them for a month at a time and go to states like Michigan or go [00:24:00] out west or go up to Maine. Like it was awesome.
It was like really cool. Cause there was kids that would come around as, you know, come with, come with their grandparents or their parents as well. And we, we all knew each other and we played games together. It was just, it was a really fun experience, but it was during those times, you know, I, I grew really close with my grandfather and.
As I became, you know, teenager and then start to turn into a young adult, like he was that person that I kind of looked at as he was this mentor, like the things that he did and just his demeanor and life in general were things that I just, you know, it inspired me. I wanted to be like him as I got older and just, There was very, every characteristic and quality he had, you know, I wanted to have that as well.
And whenever he spoke with me, you know, he was very positive. He just built me up. He's that, he's that mentor that, you know, you, you hope everyone has mentors in life. And he was just, he was a giant for me. And that day that I referenced in my introduction or my acknowledgements, Which thanks for pointing that out.
I I've been for as many people have bought my book [00:25:00] and as, and as many comment on the book itself, I get more comments about my acknowledgements than any other aspects of the foot. It's really, I mean, I've had other authors that have reached out to me to say, Hey, because of your acknowledgements, I've rewritten mine before submitting my book to the publisher, because I want to, I want it to read like yours, which
I kind of, yeah, I looked at it.
It was like, it was this, it's a, it's a book. It's going to, it's forever. It's a library of Congress. And it's like, I don't know how many books I'm going to write. I like, I just submitted my second one recently, but. When I was writing my first, I'm like, this might be the only book I ever have the opportunity to write.
You never know what direction life's going to take. So I really want to make it a special one. And I wrote the acknowledgements the way I did. And for each person I try to think about, like, whenever I think about this individual, What's the first thing that comes to my mind. And for my grandfathers, both of them, it was, it was tough, but for Jack, it was the day, you know, related to fly fishing, where he wasn't a fisherman.
He enjoyed fishing occasionally, but not, you know, by that point in his life, it was just not for him. [00:26:00] And I'd said to him, I really wanted to go fishing pop. And he said, well, I'll take you fishing. And he brought me to the stream. Uh, it's called the Shannon Creek in Northwestern Pennsylvania. And And I, I still remember the spot.
We, we hiked along the trail, we walked down into the water and I fished and he would just sat on the river and just watch me fish for all I know he was taking a nap. I don't know. I'm maybe, but I don't think
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Now he was, he was watching.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: it. And he just enjoyed that experience. And it was tough for me because the whole time, Devin, I just kept saying like, pop, do you want to make a cast?
Do I try to catch a fit? You know, like I'm trying to get him to come out there and fish. Now I can see from his perspective, he was just, You know, enjoying his grandson fishing.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah. I love that, man. It's just such a nice story. Um, so let's fast forward from your grandparents to Heather, your wife, who is also a fly fisher. Was she, uh, did you guys meet, uh, on the stream or, uh, how did, how [00:27:00] did you guys wind up? On the river together.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I mean, she loves the outdoors, so I'll preface it with that. I mean, whenever. I think our second date we went on a hike, um, to this, like this, this spot called McConnell's mills. It has all these rock formations. All it's just, it's, it's a, it's a tricky spot to hike depending on the time of year. And I kind of took her there on a second date.
It's almost like it was kind of like a test location. I would bring dates whenever I was in that, that phase of my life, just to see how they, I would always give like, after the first date, you know, I don't know about you, Deb, but it was like, all right, we'll go to dinner first. And then if there's a connection, For the second date, I always had a couple options and one was like, like a movie, maybe go to dinner again or go on this hike.
And if they chose the hike, then I was going to go through with the date. If they chose the other two, I was just going to
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: You're gone. Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: You're out. So she chose that one. So I was like, all right, cool. So she's into the outdoors. And then from that point, You know, like the relationship flourished, everything was great.
Um, we did a lot of hiking together. She loved to hike in New York. She showed [00:28:00] me some of the mountains up there. We snowshoed, but fly fishing was my thing. And it just wasn't her thing. I would take her Brook trout fishing. I used to build bamboo fly rods. So we, you know, we grab a bamboo fly rod and I take her out and we would adapt the water and catch Brook trout.
But to her, that wasn't fly fishing. Cause it was kind of like, you're not really casting. You're just touching the water with a
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah, like, like,
Huck Finning. Huck Finning and Tom
Sawyer.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: how she looked at it. It was her perspective. So it was just, she enjoyed it, but it was, you know, I have these great pictures of her. She's wearing like a dress and like sandals.
Here I am, like, in all my gear as we're fishing together. I mean, they're hysterical looking back.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: right.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Then, uh, I think after we had, Right around like the time we had our, our first child somewhere in that, in that range, you know, it was around 10 years ago. She, she said like, Hey, I, you know, I'm, I'm reading all about fly fishing.
She's reading about the notion of wellness and just, you know, and, and just these types of hobbies or activities that you can do that you can, you can do these things for the rest of your life. And it's only going to make your, [00:29:00] it's going to enrich your life. And fly fishing was one of those. And she's like, well, I've been reading about fly fishing.
Will you show me how to do it? Absolutely. You know, and. Yeah, we're in. So, you know, she just kind of, she jumped, she went all in hook, line and sinker, you know, pun intended. And we've been taking trips around the world together. I mean, I have a good group of friends that I travel with as well, but you know, it's, it's the end of April, 2024.
And we were just in Iceland a couple of weeks ago for the openings truck opening trout season over there. Like
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Okay
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I'm very lucky.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: we got a pause right there cuz I Would like two days ago was I mean BWI has flights Baltimore the International Airport in Baltimore Has flights to Reykjavik? like every day And they're not, they're not terribly expensive. And I was
looking all over and I actually reached out to, um, Hans van Klinken to see what he has to say about, um, [00:30:00] fly fishing in Iceland.
And then I, and then putting it in YouTube, I found your video, which I hadn't seen before, um, with, with, uh, Mats, the,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: yeah.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: the German dude. Yeah. Who's, who's a professional guide in Iceland. And, um, man, it seems awesome. Awesome. And I saw that you have a trip coming up in July, which appears to still have openings if anyone's interested.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: It's not, it's so, no,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: it's sold out.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I'm very, my trips out in about a week. So no, they're, yeah, yeah. People have to get on a list ahead of time. No, Iceland's a, it's a pretty incredible destination. I've been doing, I've been, I've been fly fishing in Iceland for, I don't know, seven years, something like that. I try to take two or three trips a year.
I bring about one group of year. That's some years I'll bring two groups. I think this summer, I think I only have one on the books right now. I think there might be a private group that's going as well, but that's not like a, there's no public openings, but yeah, Devin. Iceland is just, it's a magical destination.
That's
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Is it? [00:31:00] How did you find fly fishing in Iceland?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: One of my good friends, Rob Janino, he runs the Fly Fishing Journeys podcast. He, um, he and I do, you know, we, we do the fly fishing show. And if you do the fly fishing show, like I'm a feature presenter there, You know, you do the show with, you know, a lot of the same individuals. So whenever I go to Denver, I know a lot of people in Denver, but there's also a crowd of people who also do the Edison, New Jersey show and do the Lancaster Pennsylvania show.
So you develop kind of a, you know, a click of friends, if you want to call it that. And you go out to dinner with that click of friends everywhere you are. And, you know, that's just, that's your group at the shows. And, um, for Rob, he had, you know, his little click of friends and one of his friends is named Sindri and Sindri is a co owner or a fish partner You know, one of the, one of the better outfitters in Iceland.
So
at one point there was like this opening for a trip and I, I don't know all the specifics, but the gist was, it was going to be a media trip to just kind of, you know, check out Iceland. Um, Rob was going to do some podcasts related to the, the outfitter, [00:32:00] bring along a videographer and, um, you know, in return, you know, get, get a little discount on the trip and that type of stuff.
And, and he needed one more, he needed like, I don't want to say like a hired gun, but somebody to catch some fish, but also who could, you know, You know, bring some content along.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Old steady.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: absolutely. So he, you know, he gave me a call. He's like, Hey, um, we just got back from Wyoming. Do you want to go to Iceland? I'm like, I don't know.
I don't know anything about it. Like, yeah, I'm in. How soon? He's like a month. He's like a month. I'm like, let me check my passport. Like passports currently I'm in. So we went over there. I went over knowing literally nothing. I think I was listening to a podcast on the plane. I'm like, About like fly fishing.
And like, I knew nothing. I was just like,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: some flies. I tied these Icelandic patterns. I knew the rods to bring in that type of stuff, but I'm just like, they're fish. How tough can they be? And they weren't, it was their fish. Like I literally, I think the, the guides over there were kind of laughing because I would say, what should I, what should I fish?
And they'd say, Oh, fish this fly. And they'd look in my box and I'd say, yeah, I don't like that. And I just put on like something I would use in [00:33:00] Pennsylvania and
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Right. That's
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Fish like they're either going to eat it or not. And I did really well fishing like my Pennsylvania patterns or the patterns that I fish around the world.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: awesome. With
Atlantic salmon or trout or what were
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: that first trip. We were, we mainly fish the Highlands for Arctic char and for Brown trout.
We also fished a couple of lakes too, for Browns. Um, I was not a big Lake fly fisher prior to that trip
and they were difficult. I mean, I, I got some fish, not as many as I should have. I missed a lot of significant size Browns, but I also landed a handful and.
From that trip. That was one of those trips that was like, Ooh, I'm good at this, but I'm not good at this. And when I got back to the United States, like I pushed the new directions to become better because of that. So it had that vibe, but you're over there. And like the train is just unreal. I mean, it's where the astronauts train before the Apollo mission, because it's the only place on earth that kind of replicates the moon.
So you just see this like crazy terrain, the [00:34:00] water's crystal clear. They're pristine. You drink from the, from the rivers. I mean, It's just this, it's this magnificent place. That's just it. It's so incredible. It's got a high, like, you know, tourism, you know, population right now. I, I don't know their, their current population of residents we're, well, let's just say there's 250,000, but during peak tourist season, it's like one and a half million.
So there's like four or five tourists for every resident,
but. They're not fly fishing. So when you're fly fishing, the rivers are all private over there. It's like, there's, there's four people on a river and the river's 20 miles long. You're not running into people all day fishing.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: So
you, so you have to go to a lodge basically.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you don't have to, there, there is like a license that will give you some public access, but it's not like the United States where it's like, oh, you can fish as long as there's not a posted sign.
Like, I think if you buy the license, it gives you access to don't quote me like 40 to 60 lakes and rivers.
Outside and we're talking to the entire country. So outside of that, more than likely, I would recommend if somebody wants to do a [00:35:00] DIY, don't Google fly fishing in Iceland, like reach out to someone who's like, reach out to me because knowing that there's all these, these tourists that are coming like on the weekends, everybody's a guide in Iceland.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you pick the wrong guide, you're not going to have the good water. If you don't have the good water, you might not catch as many fish. And it just might not be that experience that you expect it to be. Not that it's always about the fish, but you at least want to put yourself in a position where you
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: If you're going to Iceland, you
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: opportunity than yeah.
So that's why I tell people, like, if you're going to do Iceland, it doesn't matter. Don't, don't, don't. Whether or not you take my trip, like my trips are incredible. I'm lucky I get peak dates, but if you don't take my trip, like contact me, like, tell me when you're going to be there. Tell me what type of experience you're looking for.
Do you want to stay in a lodge? Do you want to run a camper? Do you want to drive around the ring road? Just fish a day or two. Do you want to get a guide for a day? Like, just tell me what you want out of it. And I'll make that happen, but there's only a handful of outfitters that I recommend just because I know, [00:36:00] I like, I know them.
Like I know all their guides, like there's a reason why they're the best.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well, and you, you do have great, uh, insight on the YouTube channel as well. So if anyone's interested, I would start there. Um, so
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Well, I care about when you're going to go, Devin, you need to get over there. Let's not worry about your listeners. I
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: I do need to get over
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you know,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well,
I, uh, like
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: hour flight from you to
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: I really did. I like texted Hans, uh, cause I desperately want to go fly fishing with him. I like, we were talking and he's telling me how terrible his casting is. And, uh, it's like, first of all,
I'm sure it's
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: down.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: right. But, uh, like what, uh, what a, like just cool dude.
Um, and hilarious. Uh, like, I just want to go camping. to a river with you like the guy's just a wild man. I'm
sure it's just a lot of fun. Um, [00:37:00] I've got a bunch of questions, but I'm a little sidetracked the the You talked about lake fly fishing, uh, in Iceland and how you started kind of working that into the routine and in Pennsylvania and I'm in Maryland, uh, and I like avoid lakes like the plague. Um, I mean, I think I just, I enjoy being out in moving water in a stream more.
So are you, tell me a little bit about lake. Fly fishing and how you're, how you're doing it really. I mean, are you out on a boat? Are you casting from shore? Are you using like big long drop rigs or, or what are you doing?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yes. And yes. I
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Okay.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: the short answer is yes. And it, whenever I go all in with something, I go all in like that was so for, you know, three or four years, it was, I, as much as I could fish on a lake, I fished on lakes for trout mainly sometimes for, for bass, [00:38:00] sometimes for, for hybrid stripers, but it was mainly trout.
That's kind of what I was going after because I had access to these lakes in Iceland. I still do. But That were just loaded with these trout. So I'm like, well, I'm doing okay there, but I, I don't think I'm doing good enough. So how can I do better? So let me practice, see what, see what works in the United States and see what translates over to Iceland and not just Iceland, like to lakes where I'm fishing out west or, you know, in other countries in Europe.
So the short answer was like, the first thing I had to do was just learn a little bit more about like, what's it like fly fishing in a lake? Like what's, what's the difference. I mean, some like little things, some little tips that I can share with your listeners. Like your rod tip is nearly always in the water.
Or at least pointing straight down because that gives you a direct connection to the fish.
The other thing that I, I really learned was just the importance of a strip set. I've done a, you know, a, a, a nice amount of saltwater fish, saltwater fly fishing over the years. And I lost one of my, my biggest tarpon on, on a hook set where I didn't think it was a, it really was an [00:39:00] eat.
It wasn't eat. I lifted the rod, I did a trout set, and then the fish swam off after showing itself. And it was just like that most heartbreaking, Oh, just the most heartbreaking moment. And that was when I learned about the strip set, but I had looked at my guide, Michael Mowry down in Florida. And Mike was like, well, Tim, let me, let me explain what's kind of going on.
And the gist of that situation was, you know, I was doing a slower tree of on my fly. I was, The fish was following and when it ate, by the time I lifted my rod, you know, for every action, there's that equal and opposite reaction. Like it just pushed that line enough to kind of allow that fly to just come loose.
And that fly wasn't tight. I almost could have just done nothing and lifted my rod eventually. And I probably would have had a better chance. But when that fish is swimming straight at us, you know, cause that's, if you're retrieving, you're retrieving your fly straight, you know, straight towards yourself and your rod tips in the water.
So now it's like, I'm on a direct line with my fly line to my leader, to my fly. And there's very little sag in that system. So knowing there's very little sag. By setting my [00:40:00] rod, I'm, I'm basically just wasting time versus just by doing that strip set, or I'm right handed. I just take my left hand and just start pulling the line as hard as I can.
And what I learned whenever I, I really started pushing myself in Pennsylvania on these lakes is that I would have an eat. Didn't matter if I was fishing from shore or from a boat. It didn't matter if I was tight to the tight to the fly, or if I was tight to an indicator, I would have an and I would do a strip set and I wouldn't feel anything.
And I, and it was after I, I felt that, that bite, or I saw my indicator move and I was like, man, that's weird. And then sometimes like the fish would come back and then I strip set again and then lift my rod and the fish would be there. And other times like I would do this strip set and then nothing, and it was just like, it was driving me mad.
Like I just couldn't figure out what was going on. And then right around that time I was like scrolling on Instagram and I saw, I can't remember who it was. Um, I can see as I can see him, I just can't think of his name right now. And there was just [00:41:00] like crazy, this crazy hook set that he had whenever he was fishing somewhere in this jungle.
And he strip set this fly like 20 times. He just kept strip setting, strip setting, strip setting. And I just like instantly went back to Florida. And I was like, I remember what Mike told me, like not strip set once, just strip set till it comes tight, then hit it a couple more times. And I was like, I'm going to try that some I'm out for trout.
So sure enough, like, You know, I have an eat whenever I'm back on this lake in Pennsylvania, I strip set, I don't feel anything. I strip set like three more times, nothing. And then on the fifth strip set, it comes tight. And I'm like, Oh, so I strip set one more time, lift my rod
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: We're on.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: And it's like. Oh, that was like, I took, that was like five or six strip sets on a, on a 14 inch rainbow trout in the lake.
Like that, like that, that ate like nothing fly. Like that was, that was extreme,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: but that's only a 14 inch fish. Now like multiply the size that you double that. You'd get a 28 inch Brown trout on there. That's really moving towards that fly. Like. You got to [00:42:00] catch up to that fish because it's, it's moving while you're trying to set the hook.
So you got to be stripping your line faster than that fish was moving as it accelerated towards your fly. So that was probably like the, the biggest game changer in my life was the notion of when I'm on lakes, keep a direct contact to that flyer, to my indicator, and then strip set until it comes tight.
And then strip set one or two more times. So Then lift my rod. And I mean, we were just on, there was, there's a little lake by my house. My whole family was just there Monday after, after school. And my wife missed a fish. She missed the Palomino one of those, you call it Palomino golden rainbows, whatever you want to call them, banana fish.
And she was like, what'd I do wrong? I'm like, you didn't strip set. She's like, I did. I'm like, you did it once. And she's like, well, you show me. And I made one cast. You know, I was just in a really light thing, you know, figure eight retrieve. And I felt a little twitch and I was like, Oh, here we go. And I was like, strip, strip, strip.
And I'm like, I still don't feel it. One more strip set. There was a fish. I raised the, raise the rod. She's like, show off. She's like, I'm not netting that fish. You know, but it was all, it, it [00:43:00] was, it was truly educational because I was like, you just, you gotta keep strip setting that
that's a huge tip that I'll give all your listeners.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: might get me out. That might with focusing on the patience required to, um, get a solid strip set, uh, and having to strip several times might be a fun challenge this summer. Uh, and it just opens up that much more water too.
Um, so that, that will be great. Um,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: but Evan, it doesn't happen overnight. If I make this seem like, oh, I just said I better strip set. And it's like this took. At least a season and a half to really ingrain into my brain. Then once it got ingrained, like, it's not like it just lasts forever. Cause just like you, I love moving water. Like I don't like fishing out of drift boats or boats anywhere.
I'd rather wait if I can,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you know, there's when you start to put yourself in new situations, like you gotta, your, your brain has to rewire every time. So
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well, that's a good,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: it does come [00:44:00] together though.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: that actually is a good segue because, um, I mean, I, I love moving water. Um, but I'm also teaching my four year old to fly fish, uh, took him out to like a teeny little stream maybe a month ago and just, you know, for 30 or 40 minutes before we had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on the little river bank.
We,
we just, you know, Did some casting and like, um, it was, it's really fun. I think one of the benefits of kids and moving water is that they get to see the dry fly, uh, you know, moving. Um, I think there's a lot lost once you try to drop streamers in or whatever. Um, right. They're just not seeing it. It's
like. So, you know, maybe, maybe lake fishing, um, would be good for, for fly fishing with kids, but I know you've done a few videos. What, um, and, and for [00:45:00] me and for the listeners out there, uh, I've got a two and a four year old. So. Obviously the two year old is just a bit too young.
Um, although he's interested four year old super interested, super eager.
And you know, I can't really stop him at this point. So
we're, we're going to start fishing. Um, but I loved your videos on like waiters and all that sort of stuff for kids. Um, where do you start with casting for kids?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: man. Um, I don't, I don't want to tell you, I don't think there's a right answer to this. I think, I think as you probably know, you know, whenever you're reading like the parenting books and watching the videos on just how to be a parent, I think it's based upon your child for starters. I think that's really it.
There's times that I, I subscribed to the Gary Borger, uh, casting school where he does a lot of the, the pantomiming where it's, you're just
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Cell phone.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yes. And I think like sometimes we'll be driving and [00:46:00] I'll say, all right, like backcast forecast and like, and we'll, and we'll We'll talk through that just so whenever we get to the water, you know, he, he, I can say, all right, let's try this now.
And he's able to do that because sometimes when he wants to, you know, when my son wants to fish, it's not, it's not time for casting instruction. That's not it. Like casting instruction,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: So shut
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: you know, no, that happens in the backyard. That happens when we're driving. But I think the child has to also be interested in doing it because you know, there's times where my son was, he just wanted to catch a fish and Casting was not a, that wasn't a thing like he, there'd be times when we were lake fishing, he'd say, dad, can you cast it out real far?
So I have a better chance of catching a fish. And as a dad, I was like, well, this kid figured it out because if Devin and I are fishing together and Devin, when we cast 10 feet and I cast 50 feet, I'm going to probably outfish Devin all day long because more fish are going to see my fly. That's just, that's easy math.
And my son figured that out. So there are times that I would cast for him and I would hand him the rod and he would just. He would reel his fly [00:47:00] really in, you know, and, and then he'd catch a bass and that was, that was cool for him.
There were times we would go bluegill fishing and versus, and he would use a fly rod, but versus having his line and leader come out of the guides, I would just tie the leader onto his tip top 10 car style.
And he would still be able, he'd flip it out. He would flip out a popper, something like a sneaky
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: idea. That's a great idea.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: It was easy to use it. He didn't have to worry about casting far. He didn't have to worry about managing line. It was basically like poor man's 10 Cara. That's what it was. But also my son wasn't, wasn't the child that said, like, I want my rod to be just like my dad's
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Right. I want the hardy three way. Oh,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I want to be able to like, cast like my dad or like my mom. And that's a different, and I get that. Like, and then if they do, like, then you really have to consider that for me, I had this old fiberglass fly rod. It was like a six or seven footer that I put a fly row on.
But again, like the leader was attached to the tip top, so he could, he would catch a fish. [00:48:00] He would reel the reel thinking he was reeling in the fish when I would say, all right, just take a couple of steps back. Then I net the fish game over and it was, he loved it.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: that's cool. yeah,
Okay. Those are great tips. Those are really great tips.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: super cool. So just work. So you just got to figure out, you know, what, what they're interested in doing and then just capitalize on that.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah, okay. That's actually, that's great advice. I mean, honestly, it's like, I'm thinking about casting and all this
other crap. It's like, I don't really need to worry about that yet. He's four. It just, we need to get the, the fly in the water. And, uh,
it, it was funny, like last,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: and have fun.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: yeah. Right. And yeah, a lot of patience.
Um, the, uh, last summer we were, On the Yaka Haney and it was just, um, my four year old and I out camping and, uh,
we fished for probably an hour and a half, didn't catch anything. And then I like dropped my net, lost control of my line and my fly [00:49:00] just hit the water, like maybe a foot and a half in front of us and boom, rainbow trout. I was like, I was like, I'm the dad of the year
here, you know, we, uh, yeah, so we, that, that like, was a, uh, life changing experience for him, I think, because he got to see this beautiful, beautiful rainbow. I mean, small, but they're just, they're beautiful. You know,
beautiful little animals. Um, so, okay. So that's, that's great advice. That's really great advice. Let's, um, talk flies a little bit, if you don't mind.
I, uh, one thing I think we forgot to mention for anyone that's new. To fly tying, uh, I would say don't start with like a size 22 fly. I would go with like even single digits just to learn how to, how to fly. I don't know if you agree on that, but.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yeah. I mean, I think a size eight woolly bugger size 12 mop fly a size [00:50:00] 14 zebra mage. I mean, there's again, like depending on what, what species you're catching, you're trying to go after. But yeah, I, I think you, you're onto that. Go with a larger fly, you know, heavier diameter thread, maybe do like a nano silk or something just so your threads are constantly breaking when you're tying flies.
Yeah, absolutely.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: I, uh, so I interviewed Ann Kitchener and I know you've, you, you, you know, both of them, obviously she, she actually was the one that recommended I reach out to you. So thank you, Ann for, for, uh, linking us up.
Um, and I know you, I mean, just salt of the earth.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh yeah.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Just an awesome human being. Um, and I've got mostly Semper fly stuff behind me here. Um, how important, and I know, like, I saw your, your interviews with Tom, um, talking about. Really how into kind of making dubbing you guys get and and all [00:51:00] that and I'm definitely not there yet
I have I have a few different kinds of dubbing Because it's like so fun to just go by like you
think when you're just when when you're pulling off Stuff at like, I shop at precision, uh, fly fishing in Maryland.
I know they have a store up in Pennsylvania as well, but it's like, it seems so cheap when you're going to the fly shop and you're just popping stuff off the, off the shelf. And then you get to the cash register and, and reality sets in. Um, so I've made that mistake, uh, more often than not, unfortunately, but how important. Are these materials like I know you and Tom are talking about like Tom's shaving, uh, a hair's ear to get the specific fibers. And I mean, like, I get it. I mean, you've progressed decades in the sport and it's
like, you just have a feel for a certain material. But for those of us out there that are very [00:52:00] amateur, how important is all that?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Um, I mean, let me say, I'll say this and you mentioned some, some pretty big names. I mean, Ann Kitchener's one of the owners of Semper fly, which is their manufacturer. Some of the best fly time materials on our planet right now. Tom Rosen, Bowers, the host of, you know, the Orbis fly fishing podcast. He's an ambassador for fly fishing.
I've had an opportunity to fish with him. I mean, he's just, those are two incredible people. Um, and if you talk to them, I'd love to hear their answers on that question, because that's a tough question to just tell you right off the bat, because To me as a fly tire materials matter, like they truly matter, which I most was going to guess your question was going to be, do I prefer natural versus synthetic materials?
Cause that's a, that's a pretty, that's a common question I get asked, but I think your question kind of like leans in a different direction because You're, you've implied correctly that like by me, time flies and, and utilizing these materials for all these years. I [00:53:00] understand whenever I pick up X material, it's going to be useful for this application.
And this is what I'm going to need to do. This is how I'm going to have to use it. You know, this is going to be the right technique for it. And I get all that. And then for someone who's brand new or for a beginner fly tire, who's never used this material before. It's like, how are they supposed to figure it out?
Besides watching a YouTube channel. You know, reading a fly tying book,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: And going and spending a grand
on
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I'll take the fly tying class. I mean, the short answer is, you know, experience pays off. I mean, that's, that's the way it works. And that's why YouTube is great. I obviously, I think it's wonderful, but I'm also a presenter at the fly fishing show, because I have a chance whenever I'm teaching a fly tying class, whether a private class or the demo in front of a hundred people, I'm able to say, all right, like I can hold up the material.
And say, this is, this is how I use this material and this is why, or whenever I say, which I love this, this past season during my fly time demos, whenever I had a crowd of people, I would say, all right, everybody, you know, I'm a teacher, you're going to take [00:54:00] a field trip. So everyone stand up and come to the front and I would make 50 people or 75 people come up and I would show them what a dubbing rake was.
And I would grab a hair's mask and I would say, watch how long this takes for me to shave. This hair's mask with a dubbing rake. And I would do it and it would take, I would literally have it done. And you know what, that, that section in about nine seconds. And then I would take my coffee bean grinder, which I have right here.
And I would take this coffee bean grinder during those demos and I would open it up and I would say, I'm going to put that in. So I might take all that dubbing and then I would hold up my dubbing pack. And I would say, this is the dubbing pack I got from my local fly shop. This was in their bargain bin because it's the ugliest color that nobody wants, killing me.
I'm going to, I'm going to put it in there as like a hotspot color, and it's going to blend well with this hair's mask dubbing, and I would put a pinch of it in and I would put my lid on and turn on, and then I would pull out. And basically what I just made was an entire pack of dubbing. It took me about 35 seconds to make and probably cost me a quarter.
It's not a money thing. Again, you're not saving money, but it was, that's, that was the [00:55:00] reality of it. The most important aspect I would be able to say to the crowd was, and now I have a color dubbing Then not one of you has, there's no one else in the world who's using this color right now. I just created it right now.
I'm gonna put it on a fly. Whenever I cast my fly on this river in central Pennsylvania in a couple weeks, it's gonna be the first time they've seen this pattern. Like I guarantee it because this is such an ugly color. No one would buy this color and the crowd laughs. And then half of 'em are like, do you sell these dubbing rakes?
I'm like, no, I don't sell stuff. You know, like, no. Like hairline's gonna make some money on me right now. 'cause they're gonna sell these rakes as they should. It's a pretty cool thing. But now like getting back to what about that, that tire that says, Hey, can I just buy a 2 pack or 3 packet delving? And it's the same thing.
And the short answer is yes. Like, yes, like, like it is. I think the bigger question, it should be, how do you learn which material to use in which situation? And I think that's where. That's sometimes where I think videos can be very [00:56:00] difficult. I'm not saying YouTube fails anglers at that. And maybe as we advance into AI and people can ask chat GPT and these other, these other sites, which I think that's going to be the reality when somebody is going to be able to type into a chat GPT type platform and say, I have this hair's mask.
What are five flies that I can tie with it? And which section of this hair's mask should I be using for those flies? Because right now on YouTube, You watch, you know, a hundred videos on tying a hair's ear and they're probably going to say, use hair's ear dubbing. And if I hold up a hair's mouse, which I'm looking at one right now, and somebody says, well, which section of this do I use?
I don't think any of those videos will say that. And that's a shortcoming of YouTube. I think, but that's, that's where, for those people who have access to a fly shop or to maybe, uh, you know, uh, I don't want you, it doesn't even have to be a fly shot, but it could just be to have access to a Facebook Live or a YouTube live or TikTok live where there's an in, there's a group of six tires that are tying and they're just having a conversation like you and I are.
And [00:57:00] then I can either jump in and also tie with them or in the chat say, Hey, I have a hairs mask. What section of this should I be using? And that's where I think that's where dialogue happens. So I think it's kind of twofold where people who are using materials and they don't know how to use them, they have to know that.
Number one, they have to know the question to ask and they got to find a resource to ask that too, because you know, I have, I can hold up my Semper fly synthetic peacock curl right now, but like, this is great if I go to the shop and buy it, but like, what am I going to do with it next? And
some vendors and some manufacturers are able to put on their website, here's some recommended patterns you can tie with it.
And that's why I think those manufacturers are doing better because it gives that beginner fly tire, like a starting point.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah. Well, like that Semper fly catalog that they have on their website. Uh, very helpful. Um,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: So I don't know. Did I answer your question? I don't know if I did a
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: yes, no, you
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: did somewhat of a sidetrack.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well, I mean, the material is important, I think is, is ultimately [00:58:00] the answer. Um, and like, for me, um, As an amateur, it's like, well, you know, this thing calls for Hare's ear, but I have a snowshoe foot dubbing out on my desk.
So I'm just going to use that because I
don't feel like going into my little pack and opening. And I mean, it's already like a frigging mess. I can't, you know, I can't take anymore. Um, and
so I'll use it And it like looks
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Flagler says, use, well, Tim Flagler says on his channel, use hairs here. Well, I got to use hairs here. Cause that's what Tim Flagler says. Or if Devin Olson says use black peacock dubbing, I'm going to use that one. Cause that's what Devin Olson says. And you know, I'm guilty of that as well.
Sometimes when it comes to the, the idea of varying materials, because it's like, well, this person who's got 70 years of experience is telling me this is the material. So I'm If I don't have it, I gotta buy it, or I gotta find someone to trade it. And, you know, if they do
[00:59:00] versus now, like, I realize when I make my videos, like I tell specifically what I'm using, but I also, I, I try my best to be very clear to say, if you don't have this, it, it's okay.
You can use something else. But then going back to your point, like if I say, Hey, I, one of my favorite dry flies is an xca and I, I use deer hair on it. Well, there's a lot of sections on that deer. And if you use the wrong section of deer hair, it's not going to float or it's going to spin or, you know, something happened to that fly.
That's not going to be based on the hair that I'm using there. So I think being able to at least understand, like, if I say I want to tie it with deer hair, you got to figure out like what part of the deer. Or what, you know, what, whenever you go to buy deer hair at a fly shop, like there's going to be five different varieties of deer hair.
Which one do you buy? And so that, that's where that conversation has to take place between you and the fly shop employee or between you and somebody
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah. Well, and, and I think, um, in your acknowledgements as well, you, you call [01:00:00] out local fly shops, which, which was awesome too, because I think, I mean, that's the local fly shops are the, uh, The backbone of this entire community and, uh, you know, kind of the, the, the really like the spiritual gathering points too, because, you know, with the hosting events and all that sort of stuff, it's like, nice to, to get together with a community of, of like minded folks. Um, I think it's also worth mentioning on your website, trout and feather that you do, you do some live videos that people can, uh, participate in. Purchase access to, and also recorded. Um, you have a series of recorded videos, uh, on trout and feather that. That I think, um, sound awesome. Uh, like especially being able to sit down and, you know, most of them are an hour, hour and a half, um, and see you and, you know, probably type questions in and ask, uh, [01:01:00] just a great opportunity.
If anybody out there is looking for a place to start, I imagine that would be a really
helpful
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I I, wish I could do more of those. I mean, the idea behind those was it came out of the pandemic. There were a lot of clubs that were going to, you know, remote or hybrid meetings, and I was like, well, I'm a teacher. I've just taught through, through the pandemic on Zoom. Why can't I teach some of my, you know, fly fishing presentations via Zoom?
So a lot of clubs started booking me, which I do a lot of club presentations every year, but. You know, being a teacher, I can't travel to as many, you know, I, I have to turn down most
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: months.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: and no, and no clubs meet in the summer. Very few. So I just know upfront, like I can, I can commit to maybe, you know, 10 club presentations a year, the major fly fishing shows, and then maybe a couple of local events.
And then that's it. Then all my fishing trips. So I just know this is my number of a year. It can't go any higher than that. That's just, that's it. But then after the pandemic, I was like, well, what's next? I can do zoom [01:02:00] calls. And like last week I did, you know, three zoom calls with clubs in California, New Mexico and, and, uh, Connecticut.
So it's like, I don't have to leave my house for that. But then the other aspect of it was, well, like if Devin Carlson, you know, if he lives in Maryland and he doesn't have a club that's close by to access one of my zoom calls, why does Devin not have that opportunity? So I was like, well, instead of just saying, I'm only going to do these calls for a club, why don't I just.
You know, post one every couple months and then, you know, have that topic
and make it available. Yeah. And just, and just see how it goes. And I had no idea how they were going to go because like, I don't, I know how club calls go, but I didn't know, like, if I was going to have this gathering of people from around the world that we're going to meet up on a zoom call, like, what was it going to be like?
And so I had, I limit the number. Most of them will sell out, which is, which is cool. That it's cool that they're able to sell out. But then I also realized that a lot of people were buying them just because they wanted a spot. They want it to be able to see it. And they didn't even show up for the event.
They just knew it was going to be recorded. [01:03:00] They knew the next morning. I was going to send them an email that was going to have the link. It was going to have all the links that we talked about, all the images that we talked about. They were able to go on YouTube, watch the presentation as many times as they wanted.
And my price was, okay. Was really reasonable. They didn't have to leave their house. Like they could watch it for as many times. You know, I didn't just say, Oh, you can only watch it live with me once. And you could never see it again. Like I uploaded the zoom call to YouTube and the first one I did went like really well.
And I was like, Oh, that was cool. And I've got so many emails, like, when are you doing it again? And I'm like, what? I have all these club calls I have to do. So I did like one couple months later. And, and I just said to my wife the other night, I was like, it's April. I haven't had a zoom call for, you know, like a month or two.
And she's like, when are you doing your next one? I'm like, I don't know, like maybe may, but it's going to be the summer. Like, I don't have time. It's you know, I'm fishing all summer long. I don't have time to do zoom calls. So it's, I have all the, all the prior ones. That are recorded. I, I do sell, you know, you, uh, you can, for whatever the fee is, I forget how much I'm charging, [01:04:00] but you know, I'll anyone who buys one of those zoom calls, it's basically a masterclass.
And, you know, I'll send you the link. You can watch the YouTube video, the recording of that night, and then you, you have access to all the links and everything else that, you know, that was available. I don't really offer too big of a discount on that because I figure if I offer a discount on like, once the event's over, it's like, why would anyone even sign up for the event?
So I, I. I tend to leave the price the same, just knowing, you know, I, I like the live event. I wish more people could attend live, but I also get like, you know,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Life happens.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: we could be watching live and our kids could wake up having a nightmare. And it's like, all right, well, it's cool. I know I can close my laptop and walk away and it's going to be waiting for me tomorrow.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well, we're gonna have to get you like a Starlink satellite connection so you can start doing live videos while you're, uh, in Iceland or something.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: No way.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: We always connected.
That'd be good. Well, um, I have kept you on here over an hour and, um, uh, on, on [01:05:00] Mending on the Fly, we wrap up with the whip finish and, um, yeah.
So, um, First things first, and you have videos about this, but what is your, you talk about having having confidence in your flies, what would be your number one confidence fly?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh shoot. Um, what do we, you got t we fishing for? How
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: We're fishing for brookies cause they're my favorite. Uh, in, in, in Maryland and Pennsylvania.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I was going for brookie wouldn't fish one flight, set like a dry dropper se Uh, gosh, I would probably either say I would have a size 12 humpy or a chubby Chernobyl for my dry fly. One of those two, and I know I'm not, I'm not being accurate to your question, but one of those two [01:06:00] today, I'd probably do a chubby, you know, probably a chubby somewhere on size 12, something like that.
Uh, maybe a mini chubby, uh, is my dry fly. And then I have a little dropper.
So I would do dry dropper based on the water depth. If I was fishing some drop pools, that, that, that would be my setup.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Beautiful. I think it sounds great. I think it sounds perfect. And I think I'll do that. Um, how can people follow you on social media? Uh, Instagram, YouTube, and uh, I will just go ahead and say that troutandfeather. com. Is the website, uh, and folks really should check it out. There's a ton of great stuff on there.
And I loved your recent article on mop flies. Um,
because to me, they just look, they're like such garbage flies, you know, like, but I mean, my God, if you're going to catch fish,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Devin, I told you, I just, I just [01:07:00] submitted my second book. I can talk a little bit about it now since it's in, but I won't give you the whole, but the gist was I interviewed 30 of the top competitive anglers around the world. I reached out to them, said, would you be interested in me interviewing you for an hour?
They said, yes, it's all on your own nymphs. And, um, at the end of it, at the end of my interview, I asked every one of them kind of like you're doing now. I said, what are your top five, your nymphs? And every one of these anglers gave me Three to three to six nips or three to six flies. Some gave me dry droppers.
Some gave me some jig streamers. But so I have like, imagine like whoever the best fishers are. Competitive fishing. We're talking Devon Olsen's Lance Egan, Lubos Rosa, Howard Croston, Greg juggler at from France. I mean, you name it in Cody out West. I mean, Josh Miller, Pat Weiss, you name them. They're in my book.
Like I was,
they said, yes, everybody said yes. And um, What was interesting, some of the biggest takeaways for me were a lot of their confidence flies were the flies that you would expect them to say, which, which there wasn't like any ducking, like it was like an interview, like you and me right now. So there wasn't a, like, [01:08:00] I'll get back to you.
It was like, what are your five? Like, and many of them would be like, they'd hold up their fly box, but like these weren't right.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: it.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: These ones.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: this box is nothing, but this fly, this is my fly, which is super cool. And more people use mop flies than I thought. Like I felt like the mop fly got really, it picked up a lot of steam for a while.
It really animated people and what made them move in one direction or another. And I kind of thought it kind of died down, but I was shocked by how many of the top competitive anglers around the world are still fishing the mop fly.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: love that you're like buying, uh, carwash gloves and,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yes,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: like floor cleaning slippers, you
know?
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I was, but I want to say I was equally shocked by how many are like still opposed to it. Like there were some anglers, which, which I listed their names in my book. Like this book, wasn't just like a, Oh, if you like the fly, you're up to get your name. If you don't, you're not like the people who said I hate it.
Like, [01:09:00] I quoted them like I hate this fly and here's why I hate it. And I put their names in it. Cause I'm like, that's how books should be. It shouldn't be. It's all like, let's just glorify this stuff. Like let's, let's have an honest conversation about the mop fly. So it was really cool. And, and, but some of the reasons why people didn't like it was because it caught too many fish.
And you didn't focus on the technique and the fish just gravitated to the fly like a silver bullet and they didn't like that. And it was, it's kind of cool when there was two or three flies in my book that people, many anglers didn't like because they, they're almost not a panacea, but it almost comes across like that because they work so well.
You can kind of let your guard down on your technique, but
Yeah.
the mop fly is definitely one of those fun ones.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well, I think the mop fly will be for me this summer. That might be my, uh, confidence fly. We'll see. Um, yeah. So, so social media, uh, Tim Cammisa on YouTube
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yeah. I mean
the best way to, [01:10:00] if, if people were trying to just get an overview of everything going on, uh, for sure. Like Instagram probably is the best Instagram or Facebook simply because if they follow me on Instagram, I tend to post a lot on Instagram about what's going on in my other channels as well.
Um, so really stay up to date with me. I would say go to trout and feather. com and then just. You'll, you'll get a pop up screen that will say sign up for my newsletter and I would say, input your email address there and then you'll get updates on my newsletter. Anytime I release a new video, I send out an email, um, that type of stuff.
If I release a new blog, you'll get an email that that's probably the easiest way to really just stay a little bit more up to date than everybody else.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: And actually one other question before we, before we wrap up, cause I, I, Tim for the, for the listeners out there, Tim has just awesome content, like just really great, engaging content. Um, and I think, um, some of that has to do with just that. You're like a cool, humble dude that is [01:11:00] happy and you're out there.
Like just. It's really clear that you are engaged in enjoying what you're doing. And, um, I think that really comes across. And so, uh, the content that you create, I think just echoes that. Um, but on like a kind of nerding out on social media a little bit, are you, are you doing all your own social media right now?
Or do you have like a social media manager that's helping with this? Cause your videos are like really great. Um, You know, everything just looks very, very good, professional.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I mean, it's taken, you know how this is, Devin, it's taken years to get to this point. This like a lot of people who are like, Oh, like, you know, the people who are like, Oh, Tim wrote a book. It's like, that didn't happen overnight. Like whenever I tie a fly and somebody is like, Oh, you tied that. And I, you know, I don't sell too many flies, but every now and then somebody will say how much you want for that fly.
And I'll give them a price. And it's like that, whatever that famous artist was that was like, you know, he, he painted somebody in like a minute and they were [01:12:00] like, you know, I'm not going to pay this much. And I'm like. You know, it only took you a minute to do this. And he was like, it took me 50 years to learn how to do that in a minute.
Like, so it's kind of like that with social media as well. Um, I do have editors that help me out with my video editing for my, for my shorts, but that's pretty much it. The rest of it is kind of like me, which I don't like, I wish I could get a little bit more like hands off to say, I wish somebody else would do the editing for me,
but I also.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: I mean, it's a lot of work.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Yeah. I mean, I'm working on a video right now for, you know, that's should have been out like two weeks ago. And I'm working on the editing every morning. I wake up at five. I edit for about an hour before I go to bed for half an hour, every night I'm editing pictures on Lightroom. So it's like, there's always this, there's always something going on, but
I luckily I enjoy it.
I don't look at it because it's not a job. I mean, I have a day job. This is just, this is, it's not fun. It's also, it is work. I'm Mark. It's, it's a second job. I will say
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: passion. This is
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: It's a,
passion. It's [01:13:00] more than a passion. You know, it's, it's part of my, it's my life. I mean, I love, I love everything fly fishing.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: I wish I had a little less, I wish I could just move, remove myself a little bit and just say, all right, I just want to send all this, all this stuff to somebody and you just put it together for me.
But I just don't have that trust yet. One of these days, I hope I, I hope I get it.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Cause
uh,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: offering, let me know if you're offering,
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: I'm not offering, so sorry about that. It'll cost you 10, 000 a month and I'll do it.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Oh gosh. I might, you might, you just got hired. I'm sorry. I
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: that I quit tomorrow. Um, man, well, I, I, I just cannot say thank you enough for, for joining me tonight for the listeners out there. We are at 10 PM here on the East coast. Um, uh, Truly a pleasure to talk to you, and I really appreciate your time. Please say thank you to Heather and your kids for allowing you to to do [01:14:00] this tonight. It was a real pleasure to talk to you, and and I hope to share a stream in Pennsylvania or Maryland with you someday.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: forward to that. Thanks for everything you're doing, Devin. Listen, is this podcast 10? Is that what I see?
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah, uh, it'll be nine or ten. Yeah,
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Well, awesome. I mean, don't they always say if you make it past like eight, you've, you've made it past 90 percent or something like that. So keep it going. I'm really proud of you.
devin_1_04-24-2024_204323: Yeah, thanks dude. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's really, uh, we'll see where it goes. I'm, I'm really enjoying being able to talk to people like yourself, um, and, uh, just really get exposed more to all the various people in the community. Uh, so it's been, it's been a blast, but thank you so much. And, um, I look forward to talking to you again soon.
tim-cammisa_1_04-24-2024_204322: Uh, you're welcome. Thanks, Devin.