Defining Hospitality

In this episode, Dan Ryan interviews Amy Michaelson Kelly, a former litigator turned hotel developer and Principal of Hatteras Sky. Amy shares her path from practicing law to creating unique hospitality experiences in Asheville, North Carolina. She’s developed the Radical and Zelda Dearest hotels, both providing unique hotel experiences. Amy discusses the importance of community involvement, storytelling in hotel branding, and balancing compliance with creativity. She also talks about her firm's upcoming project, the Asher Adams Hotel in Salt Lake City, Utah. Throughout the conversation, Amy highlights the value of intentionality in independent hotels, the significance of making guests feel celebrated, and the influence of her legal background on her hospitality ventures.

Takeaways: 
  • Storytelling can differentiate a business and create unique connections with clients, especially in the hospitality industry, where narratives can enhance the guest experience significantly.
  • True hospitality goes beyond mere accommodation; it involves making people feel truly welcome and cared for, often through personal touches and attention to detail.
  • Leaders should not be afraid to take risks and venture into creative territories.
  • Successful leadership often involves balancing rigorous compliance and technical demands with creative freedom. This ensures both operational excellence and innovative guest experiences.
  • Building and maintaining good relationships with local communities and stakeholders is crucial. Engaging with and listening to community members can lead to more sustainable and accepted development projects.
  • Flexibility is essential in adapting to new market demands and trends, such as the shift from traditional office spaces to more dynamic living and working environments.
  • Commit to continuous learning and personal growth. Leaders should seek opportunities to expand their knowledge and skills.

Quote of the Show: “I love to be underestimated. It’s my favorite thing.” - Amy Michaelson Kelly

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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Amy Michaelson Kelly
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[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

Dan: Today's guest is somebody with an immense amount of legal and hospitality knowledge. She's worked for one of the top three law firms in the world, Greenberg Traurig, where she generally represented, quote, the man in litigation, but sometimes got into other cool stuff. One of Georgia Trend's previous 40 under 40 young professionals, and she developed the Radical and Zelda Dearest.

Both in amazing Asheville, North Carolina, which was so kind to host the most recent, uh, ILC CONFAB in Asheville a couple of weeks ago. The projects have been featured, The Radical and The Zelda Dearest, in top [00:01:00] publications like the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Travel and Leisure, and USA Today.

Her company, Hatteras Sky, is the official hotelier. of the estate of F Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald in Asheville, North Carolina, which is really cool. I'm a huge Gatsby fan, uh, principal and founder of Hatteras Sky, which is soon to release with the Athens group, the Asher Adams hotel in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Ladies and gentlemen, Amy, Michaelson Kelly. Welcome Amy.

Amy: Hi. Thank you, Dan. Thanks for having me.

Dan: Well, thank you. For a being a great host for the ILC confab in Asheville, um, a couple of weeks ago, number one, because I just want to let everyone know, which would get into part two. Thanks for just, as far as being an entrepreneur, being a hotelier, um, and uh, I would say, um, a trailblazer. Not only hosting ILC at your [00:02:00] hotel, The Radical, but also being on a panel of neighborhood transformations and putting yourself out there, your vision, your company vision and your personal story to an audience of a hundred plus people.

Um, and I always appreciate it with owners and developers put themselves out there or anyone because the impact of the stories that you tell and Just your experience, not giving advice or anything, but telling your story, um, has profound halo effects, um, downstream and it impacts. People, entrepreneurs, other people who just care about our industry in ways that we can't imagine.

So I just want to say thank you for that. And just so all the listeners know, I was very struck by Amy's presence up on stage because she just has a really, I don't know, just like a very honest, no mask delivery about her experience. And I just appreciated that. So I made a beeline for her after. I was like, I love that.

[00:03:00] Will you please come on the show, uh, and just share your story. And she grace, uh, gracefully and just accepted. And I'm just happy that you're, you're here and sharing your story. So thank you.

Amy: Well, thank you. Thank you again for having me. And, um, that was my first ILC event. So the first time I ever encountered ILC was from hosting them at the Radical or hosting that event. And I thought it was awesome. And I plan to do more. Uh, I, I don't know if your listeners know, but it's the Independent Lodging Congress.

And just a lot of folks. you know, hover around independent hotels. Maybe taught someone something from just sharing my experience, um, as an independent hotelier, you know, you're really hands on, you know, you don't just like check the boxes and then send people off to do stuff. So I have lots of fun stories and I was really, um, I was actually excited to share, share it with people.

I mean, we just opened in October, so, uh, we've, you know, it's very front of mind and it's very [00:04:00] relevant to my life right now, just having and operating independent hotels.

Dan: Yeah. And I, I loved it. Just the event was amazing. And also just staying at the hotel and experiencing all that. I've been to Asheville before. It's such a cool city and it just. It has so much to offer. But I love the idea that you, you just shared just about like telling your story. And I think it also ties into, and we can talk about it later, but just how you managed to tell the story of F Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald in North Carolina.

And I feel, I truly believe that independent hotels have a greater ability Because they're kind of unfettered, right? To tell a story of where they are and how they came to be. Um, but before we get into that, Amy, how do you define hospitality?

Amy: so I am from the South, uh, I, you know, I'm one of the [00:05:00] lucky kids who has the best stepmom in the world. I know like stepmoms are not necessarily known for, you know, having a positive impact on their stepkids lives, at least in fairy tales, but I have the best stepmom. Like everyone who knows me knows that I have the greatest stepmom.

She's super generous and just super Southern. and I learned from her. What it means to make people feel welcome. I mean, actually, if you think about it, even in like the stepmother, stepchild context, like I felt like I belonged to her, you know, um, like from day one, it was her choice to love me that way. And she did.

And she's like that with everybody. And she kind of taught me what it means to be a hostess in the South. And I don't think I'm maybe like, A true like, you know, Southern belle or anything, but you know, you just pick up on these things when you're growing up and, you know, to, for us to host at our house, like, There was just so much [00:06:00] more than anybody needed in terms of food or blankets or, you know, comfort items.

Um, and so the other thing about it is, so there's abundance, you know, and then the other thing about it is that it was all tailored to everyone. Like, one of the reasons there was so much is because she was, and still does this to this day, like tries to make sure that everybody has their favorite thing.

And so you just end up with like, So many different items at brunch or whatever. It's, it's kind of absurd. Like as you're cleaning it up, you're like, why did we need bagels and biscuits? You know? Um, but that's just how she is. So in my mind, like when I'm hosting, if I want to be a good hostess, You have to have a lot, like people can want for nothing.

But you also have to have things that make people feel especially welcome. Like we're happy you're here because we, we know you like X and we provided X to you. So just making people feel celebrated in that way [00:07:00] and, Making it such that they don't, they want for nothing. Like that's my idea of hospitality that comes from my stepmom.

Dan: thank you for sharing that. And you also have a very unusual, like, an unusual path in the sense that you were practicing law. Right. Um, and you were telling me about some pretty cool cases, but oftentimes I've had, I've had one lawyer on here who practices real estate law and it's just so passionate and amazing and just loves it.

He I think is the exception to the rule. Many people will get out into practicing law and they get their law degree. They pass the bar, they're practicing, but then they use that special skillset to do other things. So what prompted you to leave one of the biggest law firms in the world, Also doing some pretty cool pro bono stuff to go onto this, what can be scary entrepreneurial journey into develop owning and developing hotels on

Amy: Like, I think everybody [00:08:00] who makes big decisions like that is making them for lots of reasons. I had had some regret around not taking risk, you know, and I think there's, It's obviously some virtue to like going to college, like that's difficult and going to law school and doing well, that's difficult and, but it's, it is a path.

Like when you go to college, you can pretty easily figure out what is the path to getting to a law firm. And so, um, it didn't, you know, it didn't feel like a risk to me. It felt like something that I was good at. And so I did it, you know, and then I had a daughter and for some reason, like I thought when I had my daughter that I would might.

I might take a step back, like I might do less and take care of her. And, but then for some reason, when she was born, I dug in and went, I leaned in, if you will, and, um, because I wanted her to know that I didn't want her to perceive a difference between me and her dad as to like, Who was pursuing their dreams or pursuing [00:09:00] professional pursuits and just having a life in general.

Um, it's something about having a girl just kind of changed me. Um, who knows if I'd had a boy, if it would have been different, who knows? You know, parenting is, you never know what kind of parent you're going to be. But I felt like I needed to show her that I could Take a risk and that she can too. Um, and then in addition, I just didn't really see how I was going to be a partner in a big law firm and have a child and be the kind of parent I wanted to be.

People do manage that. I was a litigator. So, you know, there were days where I slept four hours and you know, there's always deadlines that come up at the last minute. It's just very hard to, it's just hard to parent in that setting. So it, you know, a few things kind of came together for me to make me do this.

Um, Um, and I just, and I just did it. I don't know. There's different reasons, but I wanted to be more creative and I was also getting pretty worn down, like I was a litigator, so I'm like the person, like, you know, just like, you know, showing my fists to people and, [00:10:00] you know, and, um, I don't know, being aggressive and that was my job and that's what I was expected to do for my clients, you know, but I really, It's kind of, for me anyway, like for my personality, it just kind of eroded my, I don't know, happiness to be that way, you know.

I'm sending angry emails about the fact that you didn't produce a document to my client, you know what I mean? I just, it just wasn't my personality. And so, uh, going on this journey, it's different every day, uh, but also I'm like building something. Like when I have meetings, it's because we might create something cool together.

You know, as opposed to, I don't know, most of my clients were calling me on like their worst day they've ever had, you know, so just kind of

Dan: the law side. Yeah. Because they're like, they're at trial, they're contemplating life. Um,

yeah, totally. This is like the scariest thing I've ever been through. Even, even if it's a big company, it's just a bad day, you know? So I just,

that's an interesting, [00:11:00] that's an interesting, um, thread to kind of pull on there because with the, just your expertise and experience. In, in law and practicing law. How did it, how, how has that experience, as you were just talking about, influenced your approach to taking on this new path into hospitality as far as, you know, developing, managing projects, um, especially in our industry, which is just ever dynamic and always evolving.

Amy: Yeah. Um, probably, A few different ways, because there's, part of development is actually developing the asset, you know, and, um, and part of it is operating the asset, you know, and those, and providing that hospitality experience, and they kind of, they, Uh, they connect those two things, but they're, but you know, when you're constructing something, I mean, there were days when I'm just, you know, calling the city and, [00:12:00] you know, yelling, you know, yelling at the city cause we need this or that or whatever.

And then I'm using my lawyer litigation skills doing that, you know, so I'm obviously using that. Um, I think part of it is, you know, uh, legal services, especially litigation services, they're kind of, you know, Like if you're, if you get sued, you're going to find a lawyer. they tell you what they think you want to hear and then you got to pick one.

And so to distinguish yourself in that, in that kind of uncertain scenario where you don't know what's going to happen over the next two years in your case, but you got to pick a horse and ride it. And, um. We, you know, I just felt like I worked harder, like I did more and so, and I've made people feel comfortable and that kind of those personal touches.

I rely on that every day, like not only in just, uh, getting our building constructed. I mean, there's lots of constituents, there's community members, there's, you know, all kinds of people. So I felt like if I just worked harder, it would go better. And I [00:13:00] believe that to be the, I believe that's, That's how it turned out.

Um, and then, uh, and even just down to, um, you know, in the radical, I mean, if you look it up right now online, you'll see there's this beautiful chandelier in the lobby. I think it's 14 feet tall. The chandelier, um,

Dan: big.

Amy: our, I don't know how to say this exactly. I'm not sure what stage this is at, but our electrical services were behind.

And so, um, you know, we had an opening date and that's a pretty marquee piece of the lobby and I knew it would be really ornate. And so I strung it myself. I had an artist next door who helped me actually, cause he saw me in there struggling with ladders and things like that, but it took 20 hours. And I just knew that if I just.

Just committed the time just strand by strand and I strung this crystal chandelier. It would get done and we would open on time and I think there have been times, you know, as a lawyer where I was having to dig deep and find [00:14:00] time that didn't exist and stay up all night or whatever it took to get it done.

And that's just an example of that. Like when you know you're capable of doing something like that, you can, you know, you Do it in any scenario, building hotels or not. Um, I think it carries over to our hospitality offering though, too, because, you know, I think that a lot of times a hotel owner wants to kind of have the hotel hum.

This is what we do. We do these five things and if it's outside that box, then we won't do it. But when you're, when you come from a background of like, we will do whatever it takes, then you can provide people like an extra experience. Like, oh, you want to do this for four hours? Or you want to have a live painter?

Or you want to have nude models all over the lobby? Or you, you know, whatever you want, you know, we try to make it happen at The Radical. It's just, we just kind of look at it like. Why not? You know, do it. think that's,

Dan: I think that's a really good segue to go back into that idea of storytelling, right? Because again, those independent [00:15:00] hotels have an ability to tell stories, unlike those who are part of a larger brand. Um, and also just like in saying that it allows you to get outside of your, those pillars of the five things and you're doing this and nothing outside.

Although I would like to check out the nude models in the lobby. So just.

Amy: We did that at our grand opening, our grand opening. I think they covered up the, you know, like in the most minimal way possible.

Dan: fig leaf,

Amy: Yeah, exactly. I think it was.

Dan: but what, another thing that I didn't realize until we started to get to know each other is for the Dearest Zelda Hotel, you were able to get a license or have, build a relationship with the estate of F. Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald to even To tell, to continue telling their story, not, and the Radical is telling a very, a story of the Radical in this really [00:16:00] cool zone of, um, of Asheville.

And then, Dear Zelda, you're telling the story of a master storyteller in a really cool town. So, walk us through a little bit about that from a storytelling perspective, and what attracted you to doing that kind of an agreement. That's a very unusual agreement, I would say.

Amy: Totally. And I'll share before I share that story that I get high off of learning. Like when I travel, I just want to learn something and, and like help my brain fill out my worldview, you know, and so we, we thought this would be a good opportunity to help educate people like in a subtle way, like Zelda dearest is not a museum.

It's a, it's a hotel. Uh, but we want to educate people or just like plant a seed that like there's something really interesting going on here. So. When we were trying to, you know, independent hotels, as we all know, are difficult to [00:17:00] brand because you're starting from scratch. You're like, what is this place, right?

And so my partner actually had the idea, what if there was some non hospitality like concept or brand That we could start with that would bring us kind of past the first step because, um, so for example, the Vanderbilt family as the built more in Asheville, uh, that family, like when you think of Vanderbilts, you think of gilded age, opulence, like, you know, uh, Imported marble.

Yeah,

yeah, Rhode Island, not necessarily Nashville. And

the Biltmore is the largest is the largest house in America

Which is in Asheville? But anyway, you know he was using that as an example And so Zelda Fitzgerald and F Scott Fitzgerald spent like a weird amount of time in Western, North Carolina Because it's a beautiful place and I think it's a great place to create and so, you know I could see why and it also had health services It had like a weird focus [00:18:00] on health like people would travel from New York to Cause they're hot springs were

Dan: Oh yeah. Remind me, that's the same time period as, um, oh, he was a professor of mine in college. He wrote the, I can't remember his name right now. He was a writing professor. He wrote The Road to Wellville. Oh, that's going to kill me. Um, that's what happens when I get older, but it was basically, I'm sure it was the Vanderbilts and the Fitzgeralds in the 20s, the Kelloggs, like all those families went to Asheville and other places and did all these crazy, like wellness.

Things, which actually some of the, which have even stuck around today, but that practice of, of going to retreat and focusing and resetting, it was really cool that they chose Asheville

and it was because of the hot springs.

Amy: Hot springs. And I think there was some just healthcare institutions there that had set themselves up. So there's, um, I don't know. It's just been, it's. Been like that since time immemorial, I guess. Um, and so, and it continues to this day. I mean, Asheville is a great market to go to for [00:19:00] wellness purposes.

I mean, there's so many spas and like I said, hot springs and, um, they're just a, Asheville as a city is focused on balance in general, but, um, anyway, so he thought that, you know, what if we, we did something around Zelda Fitzgerald? She's so interesting and people overlook her, even though she's in the mainstream.

But it's funny in, in Western North Carolina, like you'll meet people who've named their cat Zelda, who you'll, uh, I have a friend who's from Morganton, North Carolina.

She dressed up as Zelda in high school and did like a report, you know? So people in Western North Carolina are very familiar with Fitzgerald's and especially Zelda. So, I reached out to a lawyer friend of mine. He's an amazing trademark lawyer. I'm very hard on our legal counsel,

Dan: Makes sense.

Amy: but he is exceptional.

I would trust him with my life. I actually, he's a friend of mine too. His name is Joel Feldman and he represents some of the greatest brands in the world. And he said, well, why don't I just figure out how to get in touch with the family? And so he [00:20:00] did, and then we went to tea, uh, at the Plaza Hotel in New York with the granddaughter of F.

Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald, her name's Bobbi Lanahan. She's a, she's a brilliant, just steady, and really kind person. So anyway, we had tea with her,

and so we hashed out, you know, she listened to kind of what our vision was and we hashed out an agreement where we're the official hotelier of the estate.

We can use. They're likenesses, handwriting, you know, that kind of stuff. And, um, and she was involved actually in the development in the sense that we would send her design and just kind of get her feedback. Like she never met her grandparents. She doesn't know the Fitzgerald's. Um, she never met them. Um, but she is the kind of repository for all, everything about them.

So she, gave us her feedback. She'd say, I don't like that wallpaper. I think that's too, uh, you To feminine or, you know, whatever. Um, and so, and so we would make tweaks based on her comments. So it's really cool. But now, yeah, we're the official [00:21:00] hotelier of the Fitzgerald estate. And it really conjures for people, like it evokes, like, like you probably have a vision of what Fitzgerald means,

Dan: Totally.

Amy: And so we, it is Art Deco. Yeah. It's Art Deco. I call it smart Deco. Cause it's, um, Zelda's like ahead of her time. Like she, when she wore something, it was in the New York Times and it was, you know, it was, she was just ahead of her time. So, um, the Zelda Dearest in general though, is focused on the early part of her life when she, she's from Montgomery, Alabama, actually.

And so we kind of focused on that and the fact that the Fitzgerald's never, Owned a home, they lived in hotels or in other people's houses their whole lives or rented houses, you know? So we made that project kind of residential. Um, but we hope that when people stay there, they will learn some things.

They'll say, you know, she grew up, this is such a weird fact, but she was friends with Tallulah Bankhead. Because [00:22:00] Tallulah Bankhead is also from Alabama. And so, you know, I have, I curated all the art for Zelda Darius and all the books. There's books in every, like in most rooms. And so I have a biography of Tallulah Bankhead.

It's kind of like, hopefully it sparks for people like, who is she? Why is she in this, you know, in this? Uh, Zelda Hotel. And, um, so anyway, it's been cool. Uh, but yeah, we try to tell that story, you know, if independent hotels, you just honestly don't even have a choice. You've gotta, you've gotta differentiate yourself and provide people that extra special experience that will make them forego their loyalty points.

Dan: Okay. So, and that's a good point because on the, on the, I wanted to go there and you just gave me the perfect entry on the loyalty points. So you have the big brands and you get the, the loyally points are create a stickiness to a brand and allegiance because they're going to travel for work.

They want to take their kids on vacation and use the points. But when you have a branded hotel. Or soft branded hotel that's aligned to a brand [00:23:00] of a large percent of that revenue has to get paid to the brand because the brand does bring a tremendous amount of value. When, what are the, what are the economics of like a royalty agreement for the hotel versus like a typical, uh, franchised or operating agreement with a larger brand?

Amy: so, oh, so are you saying like, in other words, because of the Fitzgerald affiliation, Yeah. But it's

Dan: not like a three or 4 percent of your

revenues that are going, you know,

Amy: no. And I'm not sure if I'm at liberty to talk about the terms of it, but it's not, it's not revenue based, but it could be, it's just, you could choose and it's, um, we are the only hotelier associated with the Fitzgerald estate.

So we kind of did it. However, the parties agreed to in that scenario, but it's very different. You know, the Asher Adams Hotel in Salt Lake City is a Marriott autograph. So I'm very familiar with how that works. I've talked to the brands about, um, you know, other properties too. I'm familiar with how it works.

That is, um, [00:24:00] first of all, I want to say very clearly too, because I feel like, especially at ILC, I, I'm like a. Maybe an, uh, an outlier on this, but I think that soft brands are great. Like, I think that you can be very independent and have your hotel tied to a soft brand. I think the soft brands and the brands, they want that.

That's why they're in that business. Like they didn't, they didn't like make everything a soft brand so that it could all become standard. They, they made it a soft brand because they want to. Party in the independent space, you

Dan: Yeah.

And I think it gives them much more flexibility. And also whether it's ILC or not, like the big brands, Marriott especially is a big supporter of ILC because they also see the power of the independents. And so I think, again, we're, I think all of these relationships and branded, independent, soft brand, like it's all accretive to one another.

And actually the more market penetration that the larger brands and even the soft brands have, um, [00:25:00] it, It also lays bare where those opportunities to tell different stories are too in a pure independent play as well. So I feel like the ecosystem of the hotels, just all, they all play very, very well together.

Um, I want to go back to your law career for a second as well. So being A lawyer and developing like I always like that Liam Neeson from the movie Taken. He's like, I have a very specific set of skills, but the skills that you developed, um, and then also forming a partnership and then developing now three hotels, how has that expertise really helped?

Not so much specifically on the development side. Cause I know you broke it into two tranches. Like there's the developing and then the operating. How have your special skills helped with your partnership in developing assets? Because when I hear people talk about, Oh, I I'm a developer. Sometimes I don't know what that means.

Because I think what a developer means is that they see an opportunity and they're [00:26:00] forging a path and finding a path and bushwhacking a path forward. And they need to draw from a special set of skills to actually create what their vision is.

Amy: it's both. Um, so it's, it's all those things. It's fact it's sometimes people are like, what do you do on a day to day basis as a developer? And it's like the weirdest things, you know, um, it's never a consistent answer. So I'm not even really sure what it means, but it feels like you're getting all of these people in a room.

For like a three or four year period and kind of picking the best, taking the best from them. And I think being a lawyer, uh, first of all, there's a lot, there are a lot of documents involved in development. And so, and we have a general counsel also, and my partner and I are both, Lawyers also

Dan: Oh, so he's a lawyer too.

Amy: Yeah, he's a former lawyer too.

Yeah, so So there are three lawyers in our company and we certainly rely on those skills all the time like because they're there There's a [00:27:00] lot of paper pushing and I think there's a certain level of Institutional quality we want to bring even to our independent hotels And I think we're just accustomed to that because we were working at law firms that were some of the biggest ones in the world And that's just how they train you they spend a lot of money and time training young lawyers to Check every box and make it look good and make it presentable And so there's just some of that just translates Um, and to that client service aspect, I mean, that obviously translates to a hospitality experience.

But in terms of like, why am I qualified to like, pick the artwork at Zelda Dearest and why, how could that have at all played a part in that hotel being nominated for an international design award? I have no idea, you know, I just tried my best. Really? And you know, I am a traveler, like I've always traveled, like I haven't, you know, I've, I've seen a lot of things in the [00:28:00] world, like a lot of people, you know, I'm not unique in that way, but that is something that I've, I've been interested in.

And so I bring that to the table, of course. And, um, but really like, I just. I don't know. I just did my best and I, I've, I, um, tried to be very intentional. I mean, that's another thing about independent hotels. Like every element is intentional, you know, because otherwise why do it?

Dan: actually, I think as you were talking right there, you helped me clarify my question a little bit in the sense that it's that idea of like, you come from a strong and your partner, what's his name?

Amy: Jason, Jason,

Dan: Jason Gordon. So you and Jason come from a background of compliance and like all those things that you said, checking all the boxes, doing all that.

How do you, especially in the, in the, in the pure independence, even with the Asher Adams Hotel and as a software, and how do you balance the compliance side? With that creative developing side.

Amy: Yeah. The [00:29:00] compliance side is almost like, it's almost intuitive just because we have so much experience with that kind of thing. Like if I were to go to a theme park right now, I would be concerned about the integrity of the rollercoaster instinctively, you know, that's just something that you learn as a lawyer.

So we always have that, but then the fun part, the part that like makes us alive. Is the creative part. So I feel like we have hired a general counsel. We try to let him do his job. And of course he's creative too. So I don't even want to diminish his creativity. He's a very creative person too. But, um, but Jason and I have like, we want to do the creative stuff.

Cause that's why we're taking this risk and, and doing it. Um, I will say just to give you an idea of, you know, Jason's a tax attorney. I mean, like. A tax attorney by background, but you were, you stayed at the radical. The radical is radical. Every single room has [00:30:00] a unique art piece on the wall that was painted between the hours of 10 PM and 4 AM by a band of like 20 artists, mostly from Asheville, but around the world during construction.

Like, so, you know, And Jason was in charge of that. That was his vision. Like he, he was in there saying, this looks too sloppy. We need more commentary. You know, having like lawyers, tax attorneys saying those kinds of words,

Dan: Tax attorneys are directing. I've never heard of such a thing. That's amazing. And it, and again, it, it's a testament to the radically unique product that the radical is.

Amy: I mean, That's the idea, but I think lots of lawyers are creative, to be honest. Like, uh, like a lot of them are in bands or a lot of them, you know, they, uh, so it's just tapping into that, having the confidence. I mean, it is a little daunting by the way, for the first time when you're like, here's what I put together.

And it's like an, it's like a visual thing. Like we have no training, you know, we've never done that [00:31:00] before. So having people react to what we've done is, is that's a, it's a daunting experience, but thankfully it's worked out pretty well. But. Yeah,

Dan: another part on that, on the developing side, and you mentioned this earlier, it's like, You spent a lot of time almost, I don't know if you said it this way, but it was really, uh, creating or building alignment between all of the community stakeholder or share stakeholders, or just the different community interests.

Um, how, how have walk us through that? Because I know. In the projects that you've done in Asheville, the community is pretty, is very involved and vocal. Um, but walk us through how your skill, how your skills of building alignment amongst all varied stakeholders within a development or a neighborhood and kind of going back into your ILC, panel discussion on just Transforming a neighborhood.

Like a lot of people don't want things to change. Some people do like [00:32:00] walk us through that building, building alignment.

Amy: Yeah, I mean, I think figuring out that it's not a transaction is the first thing you have to do. Yeah, so that's, you know, relationships are built in different ways, like some are very transactional. It's like, you need this, I need this, let's do it. You know, and then when it's over, you got to do it again.

Asheville is just not a transactional city. Um, and it's full of people who want to do business with other people they like. And so we set out probably, I don't know how many years ago it was before COVID. Was it before COVID? Yeah, I think it was before COVID. And we just had 15 minute meetings or maybe 45 minute meetings or so at a coffee shop.

And we just invited some artists. Just to get to know people and we started, you know, just working with them. And I think listening is really important. Um, by the way, we're not perfect at this and I don't think you can ever be, especially, you know, if you say that you're [00:33:00] trying to build. You know, community consensus, like you will fail because they will find a way, people will find a way to show how you're not, you know, in some way, especially when there's profit making occurring.

It's just inherently, it creates friction. But, um, we have built. A good amount of community consensus by listening and having people involved in the process. I mean, the art at The Radicals led by local artists, the art at Zelda Deer is led by local artists. We hired great people from within Asheville, paid them good wages, um, and You know, we've just listened to them.

We also own the building next to the Radical, which is full of artist studios. I think there's 24 artist studios. And so we have a close relationship with what they've got going on. Like if they're having a, um, a gallery opening or they're having like an event, you know, we support it at the Radical. And so we try to, we try to make it clear that we have their best interests at heart.

It doesn't always [00:34:00] land. And I've kind of learned to live with the fact that. It's, there will always be criticism, um, in a, when you're a developer, because there's no way to make everybody happy, but for the people who have gotten to know us and have taken the time and we've got taken the time to get to know them, like they at least know that we try and that's about as much as you can expect.

Dan: Cool. And so that's on the developing side. And then again, going to the second trance you mentioned on the operating. So with the three different property or two, you have, and one that's opening soon, when is it, when's the, uh, Asher Adams opening?

Amy: So I think the soft opening is October 15th.

Dan: how do you go about choosing a management company for, for your Those different, unique, very unique and differentiated properties.

Amy: Yeah, it's difficult. Um, because I think we heard somebody at, at ILC say this. I mean, they kind of, there are managers who can manage like the tightest ship in the world and you'll get all, everything on time. And then there are [00:35:00] managers who will never get anything on time. I, you probably heard this discussion too.

And that's, that's true. And then there's like some in between and just finding the one that's in between because we are lawyers. And we own the radical, like, you know, so we, we have to have like our retail stand at, at the radical is so bomb. Like, it's awesome. I love it. You probably saw it. It's great.

Like sourcing that stuff has to happen, but also like everything has to be on time. So, uh, because we haven't, we have an investment partner in that deal too, and they need their stuff on the bank. There's a bank, the bank has to get what they need, you know, they need So picking an operator is difficult, um, but yeah, it just takes time.

And of course you have to find a personality fit and all that too. Uh, but there are groups out there that do that. You just had to find the one that's meets kind of your tolerance for what you're looking for.

Dan: And it's the same operator operating both Zelda dearest. And the radical.

Amy: Yes. So

it's, um, Driftwood Hospitality.

Dan: Okay, cool. [00:36:00] And then who's doing, um, as far as the Asher, uh, the Asher Adams and Salt Lake, who would be doing that one?

Amy: So that's Davidson,

Dan: Oh, Davidson. Okay.

So then you get to try all these different ones. And then, so I'm asking this question because at a certain point, what I've seen in a lot of these conversations is that Owner developers will do it.

They'll get to a certain scale and then they'll want to do their own management company. Have you thought about that? Or do you think about like, okay, well, once we hit 10 hotels or 20 hotels, like we got to consider doing that. Do you have a rule of thumb on that? Or are you just taking every day by day?

Amy: We've joked about it. And like, sometimes you'll hear operators say that they, they had a company, then they got rid of it and then they got an, they got it one again. Or you'll hear owners say we operated by ourselves and we hired somebody to, it seems like it's a, it seems like a very difficult business that I've never been in.

So, um, I don't think we want to do that at least now. Um, but we also [00:37:00] just for background, we, we develop apartments too. So like, um, which we obviously is not relevant to this,

Dan: Well, it is because you're in developing a multifamily. You're also considering. The prospective tenants and what their experience is like in there. So again, I think hospitality just touches everything, which is why I think over the three years that this podcast has grown, because I think everyone can benefit from whether you're managing people, properties, developing, everything can benefit from a hospitality lens, I believe.

Amy: Totally. And that's what I was gonna say and how they're similar in the sense that that's why we kind of explain why we do both. I mean, one of the reasons is just from a macro economic level, like sometimes they track each other, sometimes they don't. It's a little diversification, but also, but the amenities now are the same.

Like, it's pretty cool, it's pretty cool, like, um, apartment buildings are really cool now. So, so we do that too. So we're not like that specialized where we would just be an operator, like, that would be like a big [00:38:00] overhead, like, undertaking for us

Dan: It is a huge undertaking of overhead and also, um, it's a tremendous investment, but if you really think about, tailoring all of your property, like you as the owner, probably know your property inside out better than somebody else, but if you could get to a certain scale and really tailor that management just to the, the types of guests that your properties are seeing, it does seem like it makes, I, I'm always curious about what the, What that threshold is, but you know,

Amy: I don't think I would want a lot of independent hotels. Like it just takes so much of you. Like there's so much in there. I mean, the other day we were like, ah, the gym looks a little bland. What should we do? And so my colleague Katie was like, we should put something on the wall. But I was like, well, let's make it funny.

And it was, you know, she comes back and says, do the five D's of dodge ball. And we're like, yeah, let's do it. So we did dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge. And it's on,

Dan: Cool.

Amy: on the wall. We painted ourselves, but like, you know, if we had [00:39:00] 20 hotels, like we would just lose the ability to have that fun. Like that day was a great day.

We had fun doing it. So

Dan: for the gym. So when I, I stretched out in there and then I went for a run along the river there, um, I, I don't know which way, I think I went North along the

Amy: Okay.

Dan: then a big black bear came around the corner from

one of the buildings and then I,

oh yeah, and I, I ran really fast after it went the other way.

But I think if you just, introduce wild bears into the gym, it'll, like, increase adrenaline and make people run farther and faster.

Amy: by the way, I don't think you're supposed to run from bears.

Dan: No, I waited till it passed. I froze

and then I was like, oof, yeah.

Amy: your arms up and look big.

Dan: But it was a black bear, so I don't think it was, it was that dangerous.

Amy: Okay. Yeah. They're not, but I mean, anyway, disclaimer, do not confront a bear and don't take my advice on to what, so what you should do with a bear, but I've been told,

Dan: Lawyer disclaimer, um, so transit to speaking more [00:40:00] about the transition from independent hotels, uh, to a soft branded hotel in, in Salt Lake City. Um, what's exciting you most about? That property and the foundation of what you learned doing Dear Zelda and the Radical and now going on to a soft branded in Utah, which is like halfway across the country.

Um, what's exciting you most about that and what did you learn the most in that process?

Amy: So, so we're partnered with Athens Group on that project and they are just, they have amazing experience too. I mean, we've shared some things, obviously, cause we just opened these like in this economy or whatever. So we've, we've shared information, but just, you know, certain things about, um, making sure, Certain aspects of the operation are up and running.

Um, and also our food and beverage is really great at Radical. And, um, and so just giving them information about how we're, um, about how we're programming that and like why it's successful and also, uh, you know, [00:41:00] although in Utah, you know, they have different formulations for cocktails. I don't know if you knew that, but we're getting familiar with.

Yeah, it's interesting. Um, so, but just, Uh, one of the very cool things about that project, and we've never spoken about it, but it's in the Union Pacific Railroad Station.

Dan: I just walked past that.

Amy: really,

Dan: My flight was delayed in February and we were trying to figure out things to do and we, my son and I did like a big walking tour and we walked past like the stadium and then the Union Pacific. I wanted to go in but it was closed so they was closed because they were building your hotel.

Amy: it's construction. Yeah. So, um, there's some suites in there, like the main lobby, there's a bar in that, in the main, the train station and the behind it is like new build and it's like, You know, over 200 rooms back there. So it's a really cool property. As you probably saw, it's historic. Um, if you look at like the Wikipedia page for Salt Lake City, it's like one in the pictures in the montage.

It's pretty cool. Um, other, well, a couple of fun facts for historical nerds. Uh, there are original [00:42:00] frescoes in that lobby from when the building was built, like showing like how they, You know, the gold spike and how they connected the railroad across America. So it's like a really historically significant building for that reason.

And because it is where they filmed save the owl foundation scene for Dumb and Dumber, you know, the nice hooters you got there. filmed that in the lobby of that building.

Dan: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah. rewatch that one.

Amy: But it's cool like you can like so, you know, like I said, I like get high off learning But it's like if you go to that hotel, you'll look up and you'll be like, wow, that's cool.

And it's about you know, the The pioneers coming to Utah about you know Mormons going to Utah next thing You know you're on Wikipedia and you've really expanded your understanding of You know, the history of America. So, uh, it's, it, it has that to offer too.

Dan: so you nearly have, you have nearly three hotels under your belt. This one's going to open in a month or two, a soft opening [00:43:00] in a month, um, a month and a half. Um, what, as you've kind of blazed this new path, exciting you most as you look to the future?

Amy: I think, you know, thinking about, you know, no one's going to the office anymore, so obviously that's bad for the office developers, but for hotel developers, I think people are out in the world, uh, living in other places, like wanting new experiences. And I think we can deliver that, you know, just, you know, on a micro scale, you know, one experience at a time, one hotel at a time.

Like we're not a, we're not a company that's going to, you know, go build 10 independent hotels at once. We'll do another one. We have one in the works called Zelda salon in Asheville. Um, but we can, Give people like those special experiences so that they're meeting each other. I mean, that's the beautiful thing about independent hotels.

Like you're in a neighborhood, a lot of times you're there with locals and you're having a, you know, you're learning [00:44:00] something by meeting people and connecting with people. I just think it makes us all better people. So like the ability of people to kind of get out of their space, I think it, it'll make us better people.

Dan: I also think that resonates with a topic that comes up in a lot of these conversations on the podcast where it's like, um, whatever's gotten you to where you are is not going to get you to where you're going. And what you said right there about nobody's going back to the office. I didn't think about it in the sense that, um, In that demographic shift or day to day shift, it creates pockets and eddies of new opportunity from a hospitality or experiential perspective that I think, um, independence really are good at filling that void and, and, and maximizing whatever that experience is.

Um, and I hadn't thought about that. Why haven't I thought about that? That's like a really, that's really cool.

Amy: Yeah. And like to the, to the point earlier about the development, it's like we, we're an independent hotel, but we want to have like some [00:45:00] amenities that people expect so that they can do things like that. Like, um, like we have exceptional internet, you know, and we have good access and your walkability and all that stuff.

So people can come and stay a week, work, you know, enjoy the not hundred degree weather that you get in the rest of the South, you know, being in the mountains and, and get to know people and, and. You know, expand their horizons there and also connect with people and just become better people. I think travel makes people better period.

Dan: Um, now I want you to, I mean, you haven't really taken off your female entrepreneur hat this entire conversation, but I really want you to put it on right now and think about what would, what would you say to other aspiring female entrepreneurs who were, if you could go back to that time when you were debating, do I do it?

Do I not do it? What advice or experience do you have for another woman who might be at that decision point?

Amy: Yeah. So, um, [00:46:00] there are studies that exist that show that men, like they'll see a Um, an ad for a position and they will see the description and they're like, Oh, that's me. But a woman who could have the same or more experience will be like, Oh, I'm not sure. That seems like it's more tailored toward this.

And I have experience in that, you know? So there's a tendency, I guess, for females to be maybe, I don't know if it's less confident. Or males to be overly confident. I'm not sure, but I'd seen those studies before myself and, you know, I'd seen those and sometimes when I see stuff like that, I become aware of maybe what I'm doing and, and try to fix it.

And so, you know, I have no business. You know, business, curating art. I have no business leading, you know, 70 employees. I have no business saying that pork tenderloin is too acidic or whatever, you know, dry or whatever. I have no business [00:47:00] doing that. I've never worked in a kitchen. I've never painted anything of any, you know, You know, since I was in elementary school, probably, um, you know, I've never done that, but I do have like a valid viewpoint and opinion on it.

And I'm sure other people are like me. And I, so I guess my, I guess advice to women, or I guess my experience has been that we can do more than we think we can just because we didn't have like some formal training. I actually, I heard that a colleague had made a comment. At some point, like, um, not an internal colleague, but just like, what business does she have doing that?

And boy, I love to be underestimated. It's like my favorite thing. And, um, so, you know, that person, I guess, I feel like was projecting, you know, like you, we all have a perspective. We've all had experiences. We've all seen art that moved us. Um, we've all tasted food that we thought was [00:48:00] good, or we've all been in a party.

Think about like when you go to eat, you know, there's probably somebody there who's on a healthy diet. HealthKick, you got your vegan, you got your celiac person. You want to make sure all those people, to the point about what is hospitality, all those people not only feel like they were accommodated, but they were like celebrated.

You're here. We're so glad you're here. We have something for you. And not only is it sufficient, it's actually great. We thought about it a lot. We toiled over it and we came up with this for you. And so, um, Everybody has that perspective. We've all gone out to eat with our friends. And so you can bring that to, I mean, hospitality in particular, because to your point, hospitality is in everything.

You know, it's not, it's not like for the few who studied it at, you know, Cornell or wherever, it's, it's, it's. For everybody, it's in everything we do. So everybody has, certainly in this space, everyone's got some perspective.

Dan: I love how you said that you've, you've [00:49:00] thought about it a lot and you're delivering and over delivering for everyone. Because I think going back to my first experience of you at the ILC was you're, you were speaking from the heart and it wasn't like you were just winging it, right? You, You, I could tell that you've really, you're just so thoughtful and you've put so much thought into everything that you're doing.

And I appreciate you sharing that thoughtfulness with everyone else and everyone else who might be thinking about taking a step because it's hard to take that step. And all these stories of entrepreneurs who take that first step, I think it just helps. Add to that, it could be a drop. It could be a dumbbell worth of, uh, weight towards making that decision and helping someone get the courage to break whatever inertia is holding them.

into a new path. So Amy, I want to say thank you for just getting to know you, putting, putting yourself out here with me and all of our listeners. And I [00:50:00] appreciate you. So thank you so much for being here.

Amy: Yeah. Thank you for having me, Dan. And likewise to you, by the way, like you are the best at making everyone feel comfortable and bringing out the best in everybody. So I've seen you do this for, you know, an entire day at ILC and now through this podcast, so, um, as your gift, you might have other gifts too, but I know that's one of them.

Dan: Thank you. I appreciate it. And Oh, Amy, if people wanted to learn more about you, Hatteras Sky or the properties that you're developing, what's a good way for them to get in touch.

Amy: Yeah, so I'm a big Instagrammer. So, uh, my Instagram is Amy at the Radical at the Radicals at the Radical Aav l Zelda Dearest is at Zelda Dearest. Um, and so you could find us on Instagram. That's the best way professionally. I'm on LinkedIn too, is Amy Michelson. Kelly, you could find me there, but

Dan: Great. Um, well, thank you. And also just thank you to all of our listeners because it's been, I don't know exactly what the date is, but it's three years. It either just happened or it's happening. Um, and again, I [00:51:00] wouldn't be here with such great guests like Amy, if it wasn't for you. So please, you know, it helps that we grow every week, but just, you know, Like it, give it a five star rating, subscribe on YouTube, um, sign up for the newsletter, all that stuff will be in the, in the show notes.

But, um, I'm just happy that people are listening and that we have a platform to share these incredible stories. So thank you to all of the listeners, um, who keep tuning in every week. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.