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After cycles of depression and anxiety, Chuck Anderson was finally given information on mindfulness-based stress reduction, which changed his life dramatically for the better.
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to we, not me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:15] Dan: how the devil uh,
[00:00:16] Pia: devil are you? Well, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you
[00:00:19] Dan: oh, you got in there quick.
[00:00:21] Pia: I did. How are you?
[00:00:23] Dan: Yeah. That's a very relevant question today, pier actually because we tend to ask ourselves that don't we just just randomly and we say fine, which you taught me a long time ago, stands for fed up. Irritable neurotic and emotional, I think it was. But,
[00:00:39] Pia: Yep. That'll do. That'll
[00:00:40] Dan: question, I think it was a rude diversion. But obviously behind that question is something that I think we're getting better at asking, which is the, how are you really? And this week, Family WhatsApp. We were checking in with each other. And one of my family members said actually I've been a, got the black dog present at the moment, which is of course Churchill's phrase for depression. I thought, wow, it's amazing how. we do actually talk about those things and the, how are you can now elicit a genuine response.
[00:01:07] And I felt that was really healthy. And we're talking about mental health today. And I, and it was just a real reminder that things have improved, but also that we've got a long way to go
[00:01:16] Pia: We have. And when you think of the current situation that we're in and where we're in this. Emerging into the third year of this pandemic. It has a, it's probably going to have a bit of a psychological grip on us and that the stats aren't great. So who tells us that the 13% of the worldwide population has a mental health disability and the same number 13% of Australians saw their GP regarding a mental health issue. So that's, you know, bad maths that's about one in eight or nine. So that's that's something that really struck me and, frightening is that the second largest cause of death between 15 to 29 year olds is suicide. Which is utterly
[00:02:09] Dan: it is tragic. And I, I also think the, the that's at one end where it's terribly serious, the subclinical mental health. Issues that people that we all suffer from have been ignored for a long time. I think when I started working. So your um, as a manager, you were, you really saw them literally as human resource you were taught that this, we have a task to do these people are there to do it.
[00:02:35] And, to be honest, if people were angry or sad or whatever, it was just they became an obstacle. I'm not saying that's necessarily how everyone behaved, but there was a little bit, it was difficult to deal with and there was no language around it.
[00:02:48] But I think we're moving into, into a different world. Obviously people are having different experiences of this pandemic, but it's definitely having a negative impact on some. So it's a timely episode, I think.
[00:03:00] Pia: Yeah, it is. And we also bear in mind that the rest of life carries on and we have births, deaths, marriages, illnesses, all the normal things that go on. I think I, I. I've just completely stoked to be having Chuck Anderson, who has had lived experience. And he's such a courageous man that he's gone through a big experience himself, and then looked at that how can I make a difference to others and how can I share this and really begin the conversation.
[00:03:30] So I think within teams, his perspective is going to be absolutely crucial.
[00:03:35] Dan: It is
[00:03:36] Pia: so Let's go and talk to him.
[00:03:37] A big welcome to you, Chuck. Absolutely delighted to have you on the program today. How are you?
[00:03:47] Chuck: I'm good. Thanks for having me. Good morning, everybody.
[00:03:50] Pia: Great. Dan, we've got a bit of a five card trick to kick us off.
[00:03:54] Dan: We have indeed, as we do now on, in, in this season of We Not Me, we have a little conversation starter card game, Chuck. So just to get to know you a little bit with it, we'll start chucking you in the deep end as it were. And I have three packs of. cards. Each one has a question on it, which will, which we're going to ask you, and it's a way of just getting to know you a little bit. So there's green, which has easy questions, Amber, which has slightly more tricky questions and red, which has some sort of
[00:04:20] Pia: Jolly
[00:04:20] Dan: pointy questions. So which, which pack would you like?
[00:04:23] Chuck: Let's go in the deep end. Let's go with red.
[00:04:25] Dan: Something told me you'd go that way. Very brief. So I'm going to randomly choose a card. And here we go. Let's take it out. Everyone has to oh, it's leaves. This thing is okay.
[00:04:37] Pia: you sitting down?
[00:04:39] Dan: I instantly take against people who.
[00:04:42] Chuck: I think for me, it's this guy that had the word, this the right way. Tricky question, tricky answer. I think for me, often when people are a bit showy about what they have. I think from a materialistic perspective whether it be wearing a certain brand or having a certain kind of car, I think that for me is a real put off. Because I know deep down inside, it's an insecurity that they're trying to fulfill with something materialistic and to make themselves feel better.
[00:05:13] And that's okay. I think we all do that too. Again. But I think a bit of going over the top and being a bit preachy about how great you are and what you have. I think it's a real turn off. I think the humility in, in, in life is much more appreciated and welcoming, especially for me. So I think that's a real put off for me.
[00:05:33] Dan: Great. Well done for pulling that answer out.
[00:05:35] Pia: I wouldn't be showing you pictures of my new ride on mower, then
[00:05:39] Chuck: No, I think that'll work. Yeah, that'll work. Yeah. Got to
[00:05:42] Pia: that is easy at the
[00:05:43] Dan: she's quite showy Offy about it to be
[00:05:46] Pia: To terrible, absolutely hopeless.
[00:05:48] Chuck: Now. I feel guilty.
[00:05:49] Pia: Do you know, um, I wa I do. I do. Do you know, Chuck, I thought about the topic that we're going to talk about, which is mental health and teams and being of a certain age and Dan being of a certain age, I actually thought, gosh, how great.
[00:06:08] We get to really openly, properly talk about this. When I certainly come from a generation where it wasn't talked about it, wasn't understood. And we didn't know how to manage that. So I really hope that our conversation today really shines light on that and brings it out as a topic that we can get some insight into.
[00:06:30] So understanding and some, taking on from. Season one, the compassion to work with our teammates and ourselves in all these difficult circumstances. So start us off. Tell us, take us into your world. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:06:46] Chuck: For me, if you couldn't tell by the accent, I'm from the US. My partner and I moved here about seven years, years ago from Washington DC, with our little pup as a silky terrier. His Buddy he's 14. He's an old man, but he doesn't act like it.
[00:07:01] Pia: there's a few of those.
[00:07:01] Chuck: I'd say for sure. So for me, I think some background on me personally I spent some time in the military. I joined when I was about 17, about seven years. And. I wanted to travel the world a bit and see what was out there. Cause I come from a small state called Delaware. It's actually the second smallest state in the whole country. And I wanted to explore things a bit. I just wanted something different. And from there I went into some security work and Intel working for the government and that led to my partner and I'm eating for it'll be 15 years next month, 15 years we've been together. Which is great. It's a big milestone. And we've again came here seven years ago. We've had a fantastic life here in Sydney. We wanted to travel somewhere together and experience something different and we don't like the cold weather. sorry, Dan.
[00:07:48] Dan: Strange, it takes all sorts. Carry on Chuck.
[00:07:50] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. And for us, I think Australia made the most sense and Sydney did as well.
[00:07:56] Dan: And what work are you doing now chuck? That's. You had an really interesting history. Where have you got to now? What do you spend your work life doing?
[00:08:02] Chuck: so my work life is a it's a mental health and wellbeing consulting company. My partner and I started it about five or six months ago. And what led to that was really my own experiences with mental illness. I'd say right before my partner and I came to Austria. I became quite sick, physically sick. And there were a number of different symptoms that couldn't be explained. I went to a number of different specialists, had all poked, pronged scan a number of times, and they couldn't tell me what the problem was. And this went on for about a year. We arrived in Sydney. We did some more tests with some more doctors and ultimately they couldn't tell me what the problem was.
[00:08:42] So I became quite depressed and I was diagnosed with depression, anxiety and ADHD when I was in my mid twenties. So those were really challenging times for me during that time when I was sick, because having deal with that illness and how it impacted my life. Sometimes it wasn't even allowing me to function independently.
[00:09:03] That became a real challenge for me mentally. And of course, if you have depression or anxiety, you're predisposed to that, so you can spiral a bit easier than the average person who doesn't deal with that. So I did, I spiraled hard. So we got to the point where they couldn't do anything else for me, but one of my doctors gave me a packet on mindfulness and mindfulness meditation, and that was on a program MBSR it's mindfulness based stress reduction, and that was something that was created by Jon Kabat Zinn back. And I think in 1979, that was focused primarily on pain management, but it's evolved since then significantly. And it Jews for a number of different mental illnesses chronic pain throughout the body and a number of different things.
[00:09:45] And it's really just changed my life. Meditation has been fantastic for me. I meditate now 45 minutes a day. I haven't missed a day and probably about seven years. And it's my practice has evolved, obviously over time, I didn't start out with 45 minutes typically with about five. And then I get super distracted and get bored. And then over time, your practice is more defined and it's tweaked to the point where you can do 45 minutes of meditation.
[00:10:13] So from there, I started working for a large telecom organization and I realized that throw my experiences over that years time. And prior to that, I knew that I had something that I could teach people, because I spent a lot of time learning about meditation, learning about myself, a lot of self-reflection and overtime, those symptoms that I was dealing with that I mentioned they went away. And it wasn't because of meditation, but I think the meditation helped me respond to the symptoms and how the impact in me quite a bit differently, a bit more healthy. And from that, I created different initiatives in that organization. And eventually it started out from an idea that I had to because I wanted to help people. And I wanted to provide them with the insight that I had. And it ended up going across the business, across the country. And we impacted thousands of people.
[00:11:09] And I left there and it was an executive sponsor budget. We had support from the board. It was fantastic. It was a fantastic experience. And throughout a lot of that time, it was me telling my story to people about how I deal with depression, how I deal with anxiety and ADHD, which are often linked to depression and anxiety. Cause ADHD, you tend to have this paranoia about your ability to. Articulate yourself and be competent and contribute. So that there's a lot of self-judgment. So that tends to lead if it's for an extended period of time to clinical depression, clinical anxiety.
[00:11:43] Dan: Yeah, they're all, they all seem wonderfully linked in exactly the way you don't want them to be. Um, And so when you were going through, that sounds like a very courageous thing to do before you started talking so openly. Was that an easy thing to do? Did you and yourselves feel barriers about talking about that? What was, what was that like?
[00:12:04] Chuck: Uh, Yeah, of course. I mean, I, I think that even coming on this show now and experience my experience with talking about, I'd say myself in a way where I'm sharing some thing deeply personal, it's taking me a good while to get comfortable with it. Again, coming on this show, this is still a bit of nerve, you know, there's still a bit of a hesitation, you know, because you don't want to be judged. I don't want to be judged unfair. But I've found that over the last, probably seven years of me talking about these things, no one has ever judged me, no one has ever called me strange or weird or broken, and I've had nothing but a response of respect and appreciation because I know that people are out there struggling just like me and my honesty and my authenticity comes across and it builds a connection, from human to human saying that I struggle. And I see you. I know that you struggle too, and this is how I manage it. You don't have to have depression or anxiety, or ADHD. You can have your own challenges, but ultimately equals distress and trauma. And the, we all deal with these things and we all deal with them differently. This is how I deal with it. So I've come a long way with that.
[00:13:14] Dan: No, it's great to hear.
[00:13:15] Pia: So Chuck tell us a little bit more about your business Living to Thrive, because I think this is how you're really trying to build out the understanding around mental health.
[00:13:25] Chuck: Yeah, thanks. So Living to Thrive was created. We started it about six or seven months ago and that was with my partner, Eric. And it was. I left that organization that I mentioned that I was with for about six and a half years. And I knew that I had more to say more to talk about, and I have a background in psychology and positive psychology, and I took all those skills and that experience, and I figured, I want to start a business where I can help people and have the ability to be flexible with myself and my time. And so we started it Living to Thrive and it's a mental health and wellbeing consulting company. And our approach to it is looking at workplaces who wants to develop a resilience, engagement, productivity, cohesion, teamwork within their organization to help build overall resilience for the business.
[00:14:19] And some of the things that we do is I go into a business and I can do facilitation of different presentations or workshops on how to manage stress, how to build resilience, how to build more compassion and empathy within teams. And these experiences that I've had have really allowed me to speak from lived experience. And I think that my approach to it makes it a bit different than the average consultant who goes into a business to talk about these things and puts out a lot of facts, stats and figures as I do as well, but I wrap that all up in my own experiences, which builds that connection that I mentioned before the human connection and it humanizes every one's experiences because I have the same challenges the day to.
[00:15:04] And we also do some work around mindfulness building programs, initiatives, and doing more workshops on mindfulness. And my experience with meditation it's certainly helped me do that and I can translate the technical aspects of meditation and talk through it in my. My experiences.
[00:15:21] And then we do some additional work around public speaking. So work like this. When talking to you about my mental health, I like to do these things in a larger forum where I can speak directly to people face-to-face which hasn't happened in a long time because of the pandemic. So that's been, that type of work has been a big catapult for my own mental health, because as you help other people, it helps yourself, and the more I learn, the more I can give to other people to inspire, to encourage them to live a fuller life. And that's really what it's about living to thrive. You do the things that you need to in order to thrive in your life, because we all struggle. We all deal with these challenges, but there are ways to deal with. And ultimately you can use those skills that you develop. Hopefully learning them from me and these workshops and live a more thriving life.
[00:16:16] Pia: I think that's so inspiring, Chuck and we are now the third year of the pandemic, So it, we've got a new reality and where everything that you're talking about is we've got a lot of individuals who may be going through quite a specific set of circumstances related. Their job, their home, their working life. And it's isolating. Now that you've done this amazing, almost like judo roll of your own experience into really building out the support for other people through living to thrive, what are you seeing out there? Like what's your sense of what 2022 is going to look like from a mental health perspective?
[00:16:59] Chuck: I think over the last three years That I've worked with a few different organizations and talking to some of the employees. Everyone has experienced it a bit different. Some people who are a bit more comfortable being by themselves, they've really enjoyed it. They enjoy some of the isolation that comes along with being in isolation when we all are stuck at home, because we're not allowed to go outside more than so much time we can exercise for an hour, but then we have to go back inside. Some people. Other people really struggle with it because my partner is very much a social butterfly, so it can be challenging for him when we're stuck inside for days, weeks, and months at a time. And I think for the employees, a lot of it is about uncertainty. Not sure when it's going to end, not sure what tomorrow is going to bring and just not knowing what's going to happen with them. And I think that uncertainty leads anxiety. And also, it also leads to a lot of feelings of depression. You become depressed because you feel like this is never going to end. You just feel a bit lost just like everyone else does. And I think that one of the topics I talk about in the presentations is around vulnerability. And a lot of that relates to being open about your struggles. And talking to your peers about it at work and being open with them because that's the only way you're going to get the support that you need is if you show to them that I'm struggling and as a guarantee, they're going to respond with, so am I,
[00:18:30] And so your question around 2022, and what does it look like in the future? We often hear that mental health is more important than ever. I think over the years, we hear that more and more. But again, I'll repeat it. Mental health is more important than ever. I think that the challenges now that I see from my perspective, in my experience, organizations, beginning to shift back to the tasks and KPIs, focusing more on business development profits. And that begins to take away from the mental health and wellbeing support that employees will get. I don't think that there's a complete shift, but I think the balance is tipping a fair bit because you don't see the businesses out in the city, managing the crowds as good as they could in the past. Like as far as controlling the number of people wearing mask. So that's beginning to scale back because they're not really, it's become such a norm for them that it's beginning to get to the point where we're going back to normal. We're finding this new normal. And the new normal often is not healthy.
[00:19:38] And looking at businesses, even on LinkedIn, there's not as much around mental health and wellbeing. It's more about agile and how can you best adapt in these times you know, So you can get more out of your employees without really considering their mental health and the impacts of it, because if you don't have healthy employees and it's really going to impact your business, but I think a lot of that's being forgotten.
[00:20:00] Dan: Yeah, because it's not a it's not a zero sum game, is it? You've got that looking out to people's mental health will deliver the organizations priorities. It's not one, I think that it's a one side and focus on the KPIs now.
[00:20:13] Chuck: Yeah, I think it's about balance. You ha you have to function as a business. You have to make money. That's just how business works. But you also have to have healthy employees to, to have a healthy business. And I think it's definitely about balance. I think it should always be at least 51% focused on the employees and that 49% should be focused on the business.
[00:20:34] Dan: very precise. And if, you know, if we zoom in now on the know what we're all about here on we're not me, which is teams, what role can teams actually play in helping this, uh, in this landscape?
[00:20:46] Chuck: I think that you can look at it from two different approaches. You have say a manager and you have the team members. So I find that leaders and managers they're often held to this really high standard, uh, they need to perform, make sure the team is in line. Make sure they perform, meet KPIs, etc. But often I don't think that they get the time to reflect on themselves and think about self-compassion. And think about the times when you might not make the right decision, the perfect decision. You might not say that the perfect thing to your employees you will have times where you don't always do the right thing and that's okay because that makes you human. And I think that managers and leaders should be a little bit more self-compassionate towards themselves. I think there's a lot of benefit and value in that. And also there is a book by Dr. Kristin Neff. It came out in 2011. It's called self-compassion. If anyone wants to learn more about self-compassion, it's a fantastic book.
[00:21:45] It's something that I've read and that changed my life completely because I didn't fully understand what self-compassion was. And it'll teach you a lot about that also around self care, take care of yourself, because if you can't take care of yourself, really, you don't have the skills and the time and the energy to support your employees. And I think that as far as how. Managers approach their teams. Empathy is super important. Looking at your team members individually, everyone has their own struggles, their own challenges, but how I'm struggling with this the pandemic could be different than someone else, but be open to that.
[00:22:23] Don't expect everyone to deal with it the same way and be open to talking about that. And then there's also vulnerability. I think that a manager should, or leaders should take the time to open up about some of their challenges with the pandemic, because that immediately opens up the door for their team members to say, I'm struggling too.
[00:22:42] It makes it okay to talk about these challenges that they're having. Because the managers, as saying, I'm having a difficult time with this or with that.
[00:22:51] Pia: Is that difficult though? Is it difficult sometimes for a manager to open up the conversation? Because, Because it makes them look. And it, and is there still some myths about this or, in terms of their misunderstanding of the situation? I How open are you seeing managers to, to even understanding and being aware of some of their team members, having challenges, mental health challenges at this time?
[00:23:22] Chuck: I think that varies greatly from manager to manager. I think we've all had great managers. We've all had crap managers and some of them have more skills than others in different areas. And I think that having the skills, the soft skills, as they say, to deal with. Mental and emotional challenges that our employees are having is it's challenging, it's difficult because sometimes when you open up about your challenges and then your employees do the same, it can be scary because you might not know what to say. And I think that having that vulnerability, depending on again, the generational gaps it can be more difficult for someone say who's in their fifties and sixties, because when they grew up, it was never talked about.
[00:24:03] And I think a lot of that really. Depends on the culture of the organization and how they support their managers and giving them the skills to be able to talk about these things, because we can tell the manager, you need to talk to your employees about this, and this, and make sure that they're comfortable with dealing with their feelings in their emotions. But if we don't give them the skills to do it, then they're not going to be able to do it effectively.
[00:24:27] Dan: What language can you use? How do you, how can you maybe very quick answers if you like, but just a quick mini master class here, how would you, how could you open that subject with your team?
[00:24:37] Chuck: I think a lot of it really is about listening and asking questions more than trying to find the right words to say. I think that people want to be heard. They want to know that someone sees, someone acknowledges them and someone sees value in them enough to the point where they'll take the time to listen to what they have to say.
[00:24:57] I think that it's very easy just to say, how are you doing? We have, are you okay day? But again, that can be done all year around. Are you doing okay? And then likely you'll see in their face that they're not doing okay. And you just give them the space to speak up. And if they don't want to don't force it. Because you can't want them to speak up more than they want to.
[00:25:19] Pia: Because you could. An overly keen managers that have light think they're got a divot of psychotherapy, 1
[00:25:25] Chuck: a bit overzealous. Yeah.
[00:25:27] Pia: and that, and that may not help.
[00:25:29] Chuck: Yeah, I think a lot of it is don't, cast judgment. Don't assume that you know how the person feels. Try to come from an understanding perspective, say, you know, I get that. I can kind of understand with what you're dealing with and show them that they're not alone in their challenges. I think that don't try and diagnose them. Don't say well, looks like you might have clinical depression.
[00:25:52] Pia: On Tuesday
[00:25:53] Chuck: Yeah.
[00:25:54] Pia: ADHD on Wednesday.
[00:25:56] Chuck: Yeah, I can tell him that meeting. You have anxiety. it's, so it definitely don't try and diagnose them. There are people who do that, who are experts, who are much more qualified than the average manager, more qualified than myself, that they can speak to, to get the support that they need. Don't try and diagnose, try not to cast judgment and listen.
[00:26:17] And I think that a lot of the language that the manager or leader would speak to would be defined by the culture of the organization and the policies in the organization. There are a lot of different things that they could say, and I think a lot of that is around going with their gut, but don't be overzealous. Um, cause I think uh, managers and leaders really they, have an idea of what to say uh, but ultimately has to be in their own language, but in a soft way that doesn't come across as judgment.
[00:26:46] Pia: and when you're a manager, I mean, a lot of these things you're taking in information and you're getting a sense of how that person may be. And if something doesn't seem right, what are some of the sort of Almost behavioral warning signs as a manager, that you should be more just open to just, and it's, that's going to be harder when we're all essentially either virtually working or hybrid working. But I think there's an element here where we have to dial up what we see and the information we're taking in about our people. What are some of the, what are the, some of the signals or signs that actually some people in your team may be struggling more than you.
[00:27:28] Chuck: I think if you begin to see behaviors that are the norm for that person, are they becoming more isolated? Do they not speak up in meetings anymore? Do they look sad? You know, cause it w a lot of the, a lot of the meetings that we have now with not all of them are virtual and most people have their cameras on, so you could see it in a person's face, whether they look a bit off that day. And I think that if they come across as a bit more aggressive than usual, you know, that's an indication for dealing with something. Cause we all get more. We all get a bit more aggravated, a bit easier when we're stressed out. I think it's just seeing behaviors that are out of the norm for that person.
[00:28:09] Um, if they start saying things like, you know, I can't do this, I'm not good enough, putting themselves down. I think that those are indications that they're not doing well. And that's when you reach out to them and say, let's catch up, you know, for virtual coffee and just have a chat.
[00:28:24] I think having the one-on-ones with your people on a regular basis is super important because that's the best way to build the connection to where there'll be comfortable to talk to you about these things. And that's when you get to know them. So you can see the differences in their behavior, because if you don't talk to them and you don't know your people, you won't really notice those differences.
[00:28:42] Pia: They're so simple, but they're so important because if we be, if we tell ourselves, get ourselves a sort of you know hospital pass by saying, I'm here to deliver the business results, I'm not here to check in on how my people are. Then you miss that information, you know.
[00:28:58] Have you, have you ever seen it where a team can start talking about this? So at a team meeting that it can actually build that almost that sense of team spirit, commanderie that almost that compassion at a team level?
[00:29:13] Chuck: I have, I Have. Um, and I think that for me, that, that came from personal experience and my previous role, and I was always very open about the things that I deal with, you know, depression, anxiety, ADHD. And there were days when I would be struggling. And I would say, all right, guys, I need to take some time off for today. If you can find some time to support the work that I was doing, because I need to take a step back, please do. And every time I talked about the challenges I was having, people were very supportive. They were very open to saying no problem, Chuck, we'll support you as best we can. And I think that for me, that team that I had was extremely supportive and compassion.
[00:29:56] Because whenever I needed that additional support, they were there for me to do that. So it, I have seen it personally it is out there for sure, but I think a lot of that really was about our manager opening up to a degree about being open to the discussion of, if you're having a difficult time, you can talk to me. And I'd say opening that door, telling people that it's okay to talk about. These things certainly leads to something bigger, something brighter when people can talk about their emotions and their challenges to a degree, because don't expect your manager to be a psychologist because they're not.
[00:30:31] Pia: I think that there's the two steps here are the manager has a responsibility for these conditions in their team and everybody experiences and brings their individuality to that. But I think there's also something around knowing that you're not alone and that everyone else in the team is viewing you as the person that's got the mental health issues, where in actual fact we've all got issues.
[00:30:58] Divorces or challenges with their kids or it, this is the messy Hurly burly bit of life. And sometimes we bring our corporate armor and we just cannot let that down for fear of being exposed. Whereas in actual fact that vulnerability, when we actually do take that step forward, we actually find that we've got a lot more support and our humanness and our compassion can really help us all.
[00:31:25] And that to me, yeah. Creating that space for that type of conversation. It may be brief. It may be, short periods of time, but I think being able to have that conversation is really key.
[00:31:38] Chuck: I think it, it may be brief, but it can also be invaluable. It can really, it could essentially could save someone's life because often when somebody feels, has urges maybe to hurt themselves, it's a lot of that is about feeling. And feeling like nobody understands me. You know, I I've, I, I need to get away from all this, but if they see that someone out there can relate to them, it's like, wow, I'm not alone. I'm not broken. You know, I'm not abnormal. You know, I'm a human being just like they are. And everything that we deal with as human beings, it's a shared experience. My challenges are no different than anyone else's. It doesn't make me special. Just makes me human.
[00:32:22] Dan: Chuck. It's a brilliant point to start to bring us to a close here has been so timely, but thinking about. That word human, that's genuinely what we are. We sometimes forget don't we we're in the workplace and we we're roles and titles and suits and everything else. And but that's really, but it's really remembering that we have to connect as we can connect as humans.
[00:32:43] I hesitate to ask this chat because you've shared so many useful ideas with us. Can you leave us? What, what thought could you leave us with, if there's a, for our listener they're in a team they might lead a team or just be be a member of a team.
[00:32:56] Chuck: I think one of the first thing you can do as an individual to help yourself and your teammates is one to remember that you're not alone in what you're dealing with, as much as it might feel like it, as much as you don't hear from anyone else because they're afraid also to talk about it. You're not alone in what you're dealing with. No one is truly alone in what they're dealing with because we've all dealt with struggle, and I think that if you need support from your team or your manager, you just have to ask, you just have to ask, just ask the question. tell them, you know, I'm struggling today, I'm feeling really anxious. And I guarantee you, someone will look at you and say, wow, you know, I feel the same way, or I felt the same way. Cause I've, I've never heard anyone cast judgment on me at any point. And I think that that's a valuable lesson for so many other people saying that, wow, he did that, you know, he opened up so I can too.
[00:33:56] So I think that the only way you're going to get support from your team and your managers, if you ask for it, they're not going to know when to help you or how to help you if they need to help you, unless you say, all right, guys, I need some help and be okay with that vulnerability.
[00:34:09] Dan: That's such a practical place to start and yeah, remembering that you're not alone, I think is just such a great place to really, even before doing anything I think, to start with that mindset. So, Chuck, it could not have been more timely to have you on the show in early 2022 when this is that mental health continues to be a challenge. And we'll, as you say, it has many competing things against it now. So I'm really hoping, I'm sure that our listeners, where they really loved listening to you. And thank you so much for sharing your personal experience and your expertise with us today.
[00:34:40] Chuck: Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me. I really do appreciate it. And having the opportunity to share my story to potentially help someone else. It's it's, it's a fulfilling and very meaningful experience for me. So thank you for the opportunity.
[00:34:51] Dan: Yeah, that last point that Chuck made there really struck home pier. Given the comments I made at the top of the show about the old days when if people did have any of these problems, they were just seen as being probably difficult. And something had to be either ignored or dealt with that the way you returned to actually it's about being human, I thought that was, you know, it's obviously what the show is all about, but it reminded me that actually we w before you're a manager or a team member or director, whatever you are, you are a human, and you're working with these people. And I think that's a lovely thing to remember that. As a sort of foundation for this, that these are people and and we're here to support each other.
[00:35:39] Pia: I couldn't agree more. And I think that with the passage of time, you and I have a few decades under our belt, then, you realize that we've all got human frailties. And rather than this sort of shutting down and as Jillian Coots talks about that, compassion, the opposite, shutting it down. Actually, you don't need to know all the answers you don't, you're not there to fix somebody, you just need to show them that you care and that you have compassion and just ask questions. That's all it is. You don't have to know what to do, but you know, how many times people say, oh yeah, how are you? But they're not really interested in the answer.
[00:36:19] Dan: no.
[00:36:20] Pia: And I think having that care for humans picking up the signals, if things aren't right and having the courage to just ask somebody to go. I think be sure you're okay. Is everything more all right, because the very worst is they go. Yeah. Yeah. I'm fine. Don't talk about it. That's fine. That's okay, too. It doesn't have to ha it doesn't have to have the result that you're looking for, but I think that just that caring.
[00:36:44] Dan: Yeah.
[00:36:45] And I do I think that one of the barriers is probably what's going to happen next. If they say well, actually I've got this thing. And I think certainly being an analytical person, I can relate to people who sort of worry about not having the answers. And, And actually um, you know, in my old age, learning that it's about having the questions and the care that I don't have to be at, and I thought his point about you don't have to be an expert.
[00:37:08] And even when I was when I was a manager in in previous lives, I touched on this, but it was, it's it makes you worry that you're going to be thrust into a point where you have to be a professional in this, but, Chuck was really clear. It's actually about just showing you care. Asking the right questions. And even if you're not having the answers, but just being there for that person and that point he made about people just wanted to know they're not alone in that is so powerful. I thought that was that was worth remembering. And I think is a real spur to action for managers and T and team members today.
[00:37:40] Pia: I think isolation happens on so many levels and we think that it's about being geographically or virtually isolated. And it's not, you can be sitting in a room with a bunch of people and somebody is isolated because of the noise that's going on in their own brain. So, you know, It's just um, not having fear yourself, not thinking that you've got to fix it, not being overzealous, not trying to be an amateur psychologist, just asking questions and demonstrating that care and compassion and making it okay for your team creating that environment that it's okay for the team. And that is a leadership example that is often has to be led by the way.
[00:38:19] And so that's a, it's a bit of a soul searching for leaders to go, ah, how do I feel about that? And do I feel that it's, my own vulnerabilities are challenging for me to share or is that type of environment that you want to embrace? I think, I think we'd all be surprised actually, the richness that could be created.
[00:38:37] Dan: And we've talked about this before, haven't we sort of the I'm perfectly fine, but I want you all to share your mental health problems. So ease is Not, really leadership stance. The thing the other reflection I have from this week was that some my. Parents were in town and they found this booklet from 1991 from my wife's employer at the time, the threat 30 years ago. And one of the articles in it said the nineties at the time, when we're going to finally find the balance between work and life. And of course, it's laughable now that the nineties were brutal, the two thousands, the noughties were brutal. We're only finally now getting to this. So it's taught it makes me realize that.
[00:39:17] We have a mental health challenge here. Let's not wait 30 years to solve it. I think there's an imperative for everyone in teams to do something about it um, So that we're not looking back and wishing we'd done something in 30 years time,
[00:39:31] Pia: With those large shoulder pads that you had in the nineties as well.
[00:39:35] Dan: the massive shoulder pad build up exactly. Huge hair.
[00:39:38] Pia: a really rich and and and an absolute kudos to Chuck for the courage to be able to face your own challenges and then turn that around for the good and the betterment of a much greater number of people.
[00:39:53] Dan: Good on him.
[00:39:54] Pia: what's next, Mr Hammond?
[00:39:56] Dan: What's next in our little and the, our adventures in team land. Next week we have Ian Smith joining us. He's the, he can only describe his employment status as nerd, but he's here to talk to us about teams in the metaverse. I'm sure our listeners would have heard about the metaverse that have seen the goings on at Facebook and elsewhere. But what does this actually mean? Beyond the technology? What does this mean for how humans can connect and for teamwork in the future? And we'll be here to share some of that and in some, some of our early attempts to get into the metaverse and work together.
[00:40:32] Pia: This is going to be exciting. We're going to see little sort of avatars of Dan and Ian and their adventures in metaverse.
[00:40:40] Dan: Yes, my my avatar is 12 and always looks worried. So it's quite a clever little tool clearly.
[00:40:46] Pia: Yeah, pick that one up.
[00:40:48] Dan: It's got me down. Yes. So anyway, really looking forward to that, but however, that is it for this episode you can find show notes and resources at Squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link under resources. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends and your teammates.
[00:41:06] We Not Me as produced by Mark Steadman of origin, FM. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:41:13] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.