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Welcome to Driven By Excellence, your trusted place for all things logistics and road safety from PDT Fleet Training. Each month, join host Hattie Hlad as she interviews experts on a wide range of topics within the logistics field.
Driven By Excellence, your trusted place
for all things logistics and road safety.
Today we are joined by Driver and Vehicle
Standards Agency, DVSA Enforcement
Policy Specialist Mark Horton.
For those who work in the
transport sector, the DVSA are
absolutely central to our industry.
From car and HGV tests to roadside
enforcement, today we look to
dig deeper into their role of
ensuring drivers, vehicles and
operators are safe out on our roads.
Thank you for joining us, Mark.
Whilst I'll doubt there's many, but for
those listeners who may not understand the
role of the DVSA, can you firstly give us
an overview of the key responsibilities
and the scope of your organisation?
Yes, well, first of all
thanks for inviting me and
giving me this opportunity.
So DVSA, we keep changing our names,
but that's our current name, are
responsible for testing, really.
Our main role is, we do vehicle
testing, so that's commercial vehicles
and we also have a role with sort of
private vehicles, cars, et cetera.
We also do driver testing, so that's, we
oversee the theory test, but we actually
undertake the driving test and then on
top of that, we have a enforcement role.
So the enforcement role covers
both commercial vehicles, so you'll
see us at the side of the road,
checking vehicles, PSVs, etc.
and to a lesser extent we're involved in
checking light goods vehicles as well.
We also do some enforcement around driving
examiners and also MOT testing stations.
So they're our sort of key roles.
Thank you.
Some of our listeners will have crossed
paths with you, but for those in the
industry that haven't, can you tell us
about your background and how you became
to be the enforcement policy manager?
I joined DVSA or Vehicle Inspectorate
as it was back in 1997, so I've been in
the organisation quite a long time now.
Prior to that, I undertook various
different roles, but not actually related
to transport, so transport was quite new
when I joined the Vehicle Inspectorate
back then and I came in as an Enforcement
Officer, so I was one of the guys at
the side of the road checking vehicles.
Did that for a number of years and then I
moved into some various managerial roles.
So I was managing some of the teams and
also undertaking project work and then
more recently, about 10 years or so,
I joined the Enforcement Policy Team.
So I run the team there that's I
guess our responsibility is trying to
make sense of legislation, trying to
have pragmatic instructions for our
examiners at the side of the road and
also looking at not placing too much
of a burden on the industry, making
sure any enforcement action we take is
in the public interest, so yeah, been
doing that for a number of years now.
Still enjoy the job, spend
a lot of time working with
external stakeholders as well.
So whilst I might not have that
first hand experience of working in
transport, we do, we spend a lot of
time talking to stakeholders, getting
them involved in the work that we do
to make sure that we're not just making
stuff up that's not going to work in
the real world, so yeah, that's me.
That's amazing.
Let's move on to roadside
enforcement, if we can.
We can see the information
shared across your platforms, the
type of scenarios you're faced
with on daily roadside checks.
What actions do you take
in these situations?
The way we enforce is probably, you
could split it up into two main ways.
So we do the roadside enforcement,
so that's the things that you see,
that's the guys on the side of the
road, we have our own stopping vehicle,
so we pull vehicles in and we target
using various different mechanisms.
So, if we're pulling somebody in,
there's generally a good reason for
us stopping that vehicle because
we do tend to concentrate on the
vehicles and the operators where
we expect there to be a problem.
We'll undertake checks of the vehicle,
we'll undertake a roadworthiness check,
so we're looking at the vehicle to
make sure there's no obvious defects
on it that's going to affect its
ability to operate safely on the roads
and we're also looking at the driver.
So we're looking to make sure that
the driver's appropriately rested,
we've got lots of driver's house
rules in the UK, making sure they're
following those and making sure that
the operator's got all the appropriate
documentation to operate on the road.
So we're looking at sort of fair
competition and a level playing field.
If we find any problems with
the vehicle, we're going to
issue a prohibition, primarily.
So that's there to stop the vehicle
from going anywhere until such
time as, whatever, the reason for
the prohibition has been repaired.
So if there's a defeat then we're going
to expect them to rectify the defect,
or if the driver needs a rest, we're
going to basically impose a rest on him
until he's safe to go back on the road.
So that's mostly the stuff
for the side of the road.
We do advertise a lot of what we
do on social media, so there's
various Twitter feeds which we use
to highlight some of this work.
Yeah, that's interesting.
It's always worthwhile for anybody
who wants to see the sort of
problems that we do identify at the
side of the road, we tend to show
the bad and the very graphically
bad rather than the minor stuff.
But, it's good to get that
message out there so people know
what we're coming up against.
Then aside from the roadside work, we
also Do a lot of what we call follow up.
So it's where we go in and we see the
operator, we sit down with them and
we'll have a look at all their systems.
So this is all the management
systems that they've got in
place to manage their business.
We sort of take the view that if
we find a problem at the side of
the road in one area, then there's
a possibility that there might be
other problems that they've got.
So we'll go in there, we'll sit down with
the operator and we'll look through their
systems, make sure that they're compliant
and where we can we'll help them,
we'll help them become more compliant.
Of course, if there are lots of serious
problems, then we do have to take or look
at taking action against the operator.
It may well be that we put them in
front of the traffic commissioner.
So the traffic commissioner sort of
oversees the transport industry and
has various powers to take action,
again to sort of ensure that they
are encouraged to be compliant, I
suppose, best way of putting it.
In most serious cases, we'll prosecute,
you know, we will take operators
to court, we'll take drivers to
court, we also issue fixed penalties
as well at the side of the road.
so there's quite a lot of options
open to us in dealing with this.
We don't jump straight to
taking enforcement action.
We do consider more sort of educational
advisory routes because we don't want
to just be the bad guys all the time.
So it's not just a case of taking
the most sort of robust action, but
you know, where necessary, we do
Weighing up the severity of the situation.
Clearly, load security continues
to be a high priority for the DVSA.
How fast would you say the non-compliance
is in this particular area?
And maybe you can highlight a
recent case which has had an
impact of the work on the DVSA?
I'd like to highlight two cases.
Go on.
Yeah, of course.
They're both from very different sectors
within the transport industry and I think
they both highlight different things.
I think that the message that
they put across is important.
So the first incident involved a chap
called Stephen Oscroft and Stephen, he
was involved in an incident in July 2020
and he was out with his family driving
in North Nottinghamshire on a day out
and a tipper vehicle was coming in the
opposite direction and a lump of concrete
fell off the back of the tipper, so this
tipper was removing demolition waste
from a site, the concrete fell off the
back of the vehicle and went straight
through the windscreen of Stephen's
vehicle and killed Stephen in front
of his daughter and his grandchildren.
Obviously a very unfortunate incident
and there was an investigation
as you would expect after that.
The police weren't able to take
any prosecution action against
anybody because they couldn't prove
beyond reasonable doubt where this
lump of concrete has come from.
But it did end up in a coroner's court
and the coroner at the time and this was
May 21, I think, when the actual hearing
took place and the outcome of that was
that the coroner approached DVSA and
also the Health and Safety Executive,
because we work very closely with the
Health and Safety Executive, approached
us and asked us what we were going to do
to prevent similar incidents happening
in the future and this is called a
Report On Preventing Future Deaths and it
happens quite a lot in coroner's court.
So we were then obliged to respond to
this request and say what we were going to
do and that was one of the catalysts for
some of the changes that DVSA have made to
the way we enforce load security and also
the guidance that we've recently written.
So again, that was very tragic and then
more recently, a young chap called Harry
Dennis, was involved in an accident in
December 22, just before Christmas and
this case was only very recently in court
at the end of 23, it was in November and,
Harry was in a passenger vehicle and going
the opposite direction was a light goods
vehicle with scaffolding on it and one
of the scaffolding parts, the scaffolding
had swung out because there was no load
security whatsoever on this vehicle and
you can imagine what happened when the
scaffolding hit the vehicle coming in the
other direction and Harry was an 11 year
old young kid and he was very sporty,
obviously loved by all his family and he
died in hospital a few days later, they
weren't able to save his life and again,
it was a tragic incident and there was
an investigation there, the driver was
actually sentenced to four years in prison
for death by dangerous driving and he got
quite a serious driving ban as well, and
some of the findings that came out of that
was the fact that the driver would have
known about this because, first of all
the parts of the scaffolding that swung
out, he could see through his wing mirror,
so it would have been obvious to him.
But also the findings were that, and
probably through his own admittance as
well, that he didn't secure his load,
he'd been doing this for a number of
years, just relying on the weight of
the load itself to keep it secure and
again, a tragic incident and in both
these cases, these were foreseeable,
had the drivers taken more time before
these vehicles went on the road.
Ten, fifteen minutes, all it takes, two
people, obviously one's of, one's of
end up losing their lives and then the
knock on effect on their family, also the
family of the drivers of these vehicles,
because you know, it's awful for them.
So, yeah, absolutely tragic.
and unfortunately these happen on a
fairly regular basis, they're just two
cases that I'm highlighting, but as
I say, I work with Health and Safety
Executive and they will tell you that
this is a weekly occurrence where
somebody is losing their life because
of poor practice in a lot of cases.
If we can for a moment talk
about the consequences of
this type of non compliance.
You've mentioned there that chap got
four years, but what are the other
consequences of unsecure loads?
I assume it's not just the killed and
seriously injured figures, there's
no doubt in my mind that there's
a whole host of other impacts, can
you explain with us what they are?
Yeah, I mean, you're right.
I mean, I think it's, obviously we do
tend to emphasise the dramatic and the
tragic, but I think in a lot of cases and
anybody who drives around on the motorway
network will hear on the news there's
been an incident, there's a goods vehicle
shed its load and there's delays, even on
the way down today, there was an incident
where a load had been shed which caused
delays, and I think that is one of the
main things that, so, delays that are
caused on the network and the debris on
the motorway that is a result of these
incidents and of course somebody's then
got to get out and clear up that mess.
I think it's probably one of
the most dangerous places to be.
They always used to say that being on
the hard shoulder was the most dangerous
place on the motorway, but we haven't got
hard shoulders anymore, so I think they're
getting even more dangerous so, and
Highways England are responsible for doing
that, so that's a big effect on them.
But of course, if you're stuck in a
delay, if you're trying to deliver a
load, then you're not going to meet
your delivery slot, there's going to
be people failing to go to meetings or
hospital appointments and so there's a big
impact on the economy across the board.
From a DVSA point of view, where goods
vehicles are involved in this, because
they're not securing the loads properly,
then obviously they're going to be of
interest to us, so they're more likely
to be targeted by us, because we do tend
to target based on behavior and what we
experience, our interaction with operators
and drivers, so it does have an effect
on that and of course, if you're going to
be pulled over more by DVSA, then that's
going to make it harder for you in the
future, because we're going to be delaying
you a lot more, so it's damaging to their
reputation, potentially to their business,
there's a cost, of course, for that.
Might make it harder to recruit drivers
as well, you know, you don't want to
work for an operator that's always been
pulled over by the DVSA because, you
know, it's not good for you either.
So yeah, there's lots of different
knock on effects, not just the
obvious, it's everything else
that goes on in the background.
Many already understand that human
error causes most collisions.
I'm led to believe it's
actually around 98%.
We know that the DVSA makes significant
investment into making our road safer,
would you say there has been a standout
project or initiative that has had the
biggest impact on improving compliance?
It's been very difficult to just
pick on one, one initiative.
So I'm going to tell you about a few
initiatives that we've been involved
in and I've been involved in, some of
these as well over the years and in this
role we say 98% down to error really,
things that are avoidable, and that's
a, you know, that's always a concern.
I think we always say that 85% of the
defects that we find are the side of the
road could have been spotted by the driver
before they set off on their journey.
So that's a lot of the problems that
we find are extremely avoidable.
As far as initiatives go, I'll start
with load security because that's
something that I've been involved in.
So DVSA changed its approach to load
security going back now 10 years or so,
where previously we'd been quite reactive.
We dealt with them where we came
across them, but we didn't go out
there talking to drivers and operators
and we didn't really have a strategy
as such around that, but we changed
that as is often the case with these
things because of incidents that were
happening and people losing their lives.
So we started working with the health and
safety executive and we came up with a
strategy on the best way of tackling low
security and that was very much about a
pragmatic approach, using advice where
necessary, but having this strategy set
out very clearly for people, and also
working with industry to deliver guidance
that was more helpful, because while
there is a lot of guidance out there,
it does tend to be quite technical in
nature and actually, that's probably
not what people need, what people need
is something that they can pick up and
read, understand and then implement that.
So we provided that, we actually
won an award, Prince Michael of
Kent International Road Safety Award
for the work that we did there.
So that was a good
recognition of what we did.
But then looking at some other things,
so we introduced something which we
call the Operator Compliance Risk Score.
This is something that we use to target
based on our interaction with operators.
So if that interaction is positive, then
they get a positive score, if we find
problems, then that has a negative impact.
I'm simplifying this hugely for the
sake of time, but because of this, an
operator will have a score, it'll be
a red, amber or green, obviously we'll
target the red and we'll leave the green
alone and that was introduced a number
of years ago, and one of the unintended
consequences of that was that because
anybody can access an operator's OCRS
score, and being able to access that,
a customer can look at an operator and
decide whether or not they want to give
them their business, because if they're
a red operator, they're far more likely
to get stopped by DVSA for a start and
they've probably got higher insurance
premiums and there's other issues there.
So that had a good knock on
effect to encourage operators
to be compliant and then as an
extension of that, we introduced
something called Earn Recognition.
So Earn Recognition is for the very best
operators that we have in the UK and
if you're an Earn Recognition operator,
DVSA pretty much leave you alone.
We rely on you to monitor your
own compliance and you provide
us with assurances that's what
you've done and we won't touch you.
The only time we'll do that is if we
see your vehicle go past and there's
a wheel missing, that sort of thing.
So generally speaking, we leave you
alone, let you get on with your business
and also what that does, it allows
our resource to be freed up to deal
with the non compliant, because again,
we're leaving the compliant alone.
Another initiative that happened a
few years ago now was called the Small
Trailer Initiative and this again was a...
There's an unfortunate incident
where a young boy called Fred Hussey
was killed by a runaway trailer.
So it was a light trailer being carried
by, being pulled by a car and because of
some successful lobbying and MPs being
involved in that, additional funding
was made available to DVSA so that we
could go out there and start looking at
light trailers, caravans, things that we
wouldn't normally look at and that had
quite a big impact, particularly in the
region where this young chap was involved
in the accident and then above and beyond
that, we recently have signed up to what
we call NAS, and that's the AMPR and
enforcement cameras around the UK, we now
have access to that, I think somewhere
in the region of 12, 000 cameras, and
having access to that enables us to
be much more targeted in our approach.
So we tend to know where
vehicles are on the network.
so if we have targets, we can make sure
that we're in the right place at the
right time and again, it's a huge saving
and resource because whilst we have
lots of check sites around the country,
everybody knows where our check sites are,
so it can be quite easy to avoid them.
We do have, obviously mobile capability
as well, but having access to these
cameras has been a real game changer
for us, in targeting the non compliant.
Yeah, I bet.
You just mentioned the development of
the Safety Code of Practice, which I know
you've been personally instrumental on.
So I just want to talk about
that a little bit more.
I know you mentioned it
was updated last year.
How do you think the logistics sector has
responded and adapted this into practices?
Could more still be done?
I think there's always more that could
be done, I think what one of the problems
the DVSA has in monitoring compliance
with something like load security is the
fact that we check a very small proportion
of the traffic that's out there and we
try, we are as targeted and we try and
be as targeted as we can so we know
we're checking the right vehicles but
there's still a lot that we don't check
so sometimes it's very difficult to get
a handle on how compliant industry is.
One of the other things we're acutely
aware of is that when we do stop vehicles,
because of insecure loads, nearly 50
percent of all those incidents are because
the load hasn't been secured at all.
So, this isn't marginal
things where somebody's tried
to do the best they can do.
This is people not bothering at all,
hiding behind curtains and things
like that, so we know there is a
problem and this is why we wrote
the original guidance and then we've
rewritten all the existing guidance.
So there's quite a lot out there and
we've tried to bring it all into one place
and write it in a way that's much more
accessible, people easier to understand
because we publish this on the government
website, it has to be written in a
certain way that makes it very accessible.
So for people where English isn't
the main language, et cetera so,
and hopefully that's as a benefit
and it makes it more helpful.
Probably one of the biggest compliments
we got was this, somebody said
from a trade organisation that
people are actually reading it now.
So, we don't get much praise in
enforcement anyway, but, actually the fact
that it was out there and we, did quite
a good publicity campaign prior to it
being released and also because we spent
a lot of time talking to stakeholders.
So when it came out, it
did cause quite a stir.
Judging by the amount of emails that we
got at the time and certainly continue
to get about that and I think it came as
a surprise to some people that there was
guidance out there and also that they
should be securing the load and whilst
there had been guidance knocking around
since the early 70s, I think it had sort
of been, you know, disappeared into the
mist sometimes and so us redoing that
and doing that publicity and publishing
it out and, you know, it has made a big
difference, people are looking at it
and people are challenging us as well,
they're challenging the instructions
and the guidance that we've given and we
work with them, we look at information
that they provide and if what they're
suggesting as a change is appropriate,
then we do that, you know, we don't
take everything on board, you know, we
couldn't do that, but we do listen to them
and hopefully the guidance does evolve.
We're going to be about to release a new
version the next couple of months, which
is taking on board all the feedback we've
had from when we released it last year.
So it's going to evolve, it's going to
improve and of course, we gather more data
through our encounters, so we know what's
happening, we know what we're finding,
we know where the biggest problems are
so we can place the emphasis in the
right areas and that's not just with the
guidance, that's with the way that we
enforce, the way we train our examiners,
who we interact with in the business.
So if we are training our examiners,
we will get external operators,
manufacturers involved so that
they can explain to our examiners
what the problems that they face.
So it's getting a better understanding
of those issues that gives them more
of a rounded approach to enforcement.
So I think the message is, yes,
compliance could be better.
We do everything that we can to
drive that compliance, you know,
we don't just sort of go with a big
stick, we do help as much as we can.
I do quite a few talking events and
conferences where we'll talk about
these things and we'll identify what
the problems are, we'll tailor that
to the audience and we do get a lot
of requests to do that, which I see
only as a positive thing so yeah.
If we can for a second just edge over to
a more proactive approach to risk and talk
around that and that's risk assessments.
Not only do they reduce the chance of
incidents occurring, but also demonstrate
to employees and external bodies such
as the DVSA that companies have taken
ample steps to protect people from harm.
Do you think adequate risk assessments
take place in the transport industry?
Increasingly, we do place emphasis
on having effective risk assessments
in a business to control those risks.
It's also a legal requirement of course,
depending on the size of the business and
the law says something along the lines
of employees must protect both their
employees and anybody else who could
be work, from their work activities.
So it is an extremely important part
of managing that and effective risk
assessments are key to controlling those
risks and the transport sector is known to
be a fairly dangerous sector to work in.
Not just out when they're out on the
road, but it's the loading and unloading
of vehicles that causes a lot of problems
for the Health and Safety Executive.
Where people are working at high,
there's manual handling, so there's
lots of risks associated with that
and of course, goods vehicles are
big and they cause a lot of damage.
So it's extremely important that
when operators are looking at those
risks, they look at all the risks and
it's not just about coming up with
a risk assessment, it's about what
you do with that risk assessment.
So obviously it has to be effective,
but it's the way then drives the
way that business then operates.
So in the latest version of
the load security guidance,
we've added a whole section.
about risk assessments because what we've
found is that a lot of operators have
said to us well I know the guidance says
we have to do one particular thing but
actually we think we can do it better than
that or we think there's a another way
of doing that and we've said to them well
okay that's fine if that's what you want
to do, but show us your risk assessment,
you know, demonstrate to us that you
have considered all the problems that are
associated with what you're deciding to
do with the load that you're carrying,
you know, what are you looking at?
Are you looking at the
roads that you go on?
Are you considering the experience
of the people that are involved
in that transport train?
You know, are you training your drivers
and all these different things that can
help to make a risk assessment effective?
So we are placing more emphasis on that.
There was a recent case actually,
which illustrates quite well, where
one of the traffic commissioners,
Miles Dorrington, he revoked a
license from an operator because of
their approach to risk assessment.
So whilst they've got risk assessments
in place, they hadn't actually done
anything with the risk assessment.
So they'd gone to the trouble of looking
at the risk, writing the documents and
so on, but they hadn't actually acted
on those risk assessments and I think
that's the key thing here, isn't it?
It's not just about doing the risk
assessment, it's what that then
drives you to do to make sure that
your business is a safe place, safe
environment for drivers and anybody
else that interacts with that business.
Absolutely.
We've discussed some serious issues
today and I'm sure our listeners will
have much to take away from this.
Our final question before we
draw to a close is more about
looking into the near future.
How would you see the introduction of
alternatively fueled vehicles such as
electric gas and hydrogen affecting
the way that the DVSA enforces law?
What challenges do you expect to
encounter over the next few years?
So I'm going to do that thing that
politicians do and I'm going to
answer a different question, because
I think that question should probably
be about autonomous vehicles because
as we move forward, connected and
autonomous vehicles are going to
be probably the biggest change in
the transport industry in the UK.
So we're seeing this now with private
cars, anybody who's got a modern car
will have driver assistance systems on
there and I've got a hire car today and
it won't let me drive out of the lane
I'm in, very frustrating, but they're
there for a reason, so the government's
committed to autonomous vehicles in the
future and the autonomous vehicle bill
is currently being written and what that
does it sets out what the legislation
will say in the future that's going to
govern how we integrate these vehicles
into the UK and also that's going to
set out how we're going to enforce that.
We're very much involved in this
at the moment we have a project
team that is, they're just devoted
to looking at autonomous vehicles.
We're involved in a lot of
the trials that are ongoing.
For example, there's one called CAV4th,
which is on the 4th Road Bridge near
Edinburgh and we're working with the
local council and the manufacturers
of these vehicles there and we've got
vehicles going across that bridge without
drivers and there's lots of other trials
around the UK, mostly they're not on
the private, they're not on the main
roads, they're sort of in industrial
estates, airports and places like that.
But this is going to be the biggest impact
on traffic in the UK moving forward.
There's a lot of challenges for this
country, not least the fact that our roads
were very old, very bendy, so whilst it
probably worked quite well on motorways,
the challenge is how you then integrate
that into rural areas and towns and so on.
So that's a big thing and that's, it might
be a few years off, but the thinking's
there, the technology's in place, it's
just how we start integrating that.
We're going on to alternative for fuel
vehicles, so we'll answer your question.
I think from our point of view,
they don't make a great deal of
difference to what we will do.
I mean, we train our examiners there
might be things they don't want to touch
when they're looking at an electric
but other than that, these vehicles
still need brakes, they still need,
you know, tires and everything else, so
essentially enforcement remains the same.
I think there's challenges around,
certainly for larger commercial vehicles,
electrically powered ones, because
batteries take up a lot of space.
They eat into carrying capacity
and they're obviously very heavy,
so there's challenges there.
There are some around, but we're
not seeing many on the road.
I think if, you're doing
local runs, then that's fine.
But anything, any like long
haulage is a real challenge.
I think where we are seeing a lot more
and where they are more viable is, like
commercial vehicles, you can get the range
out and the vehicles aren't as heavy.
and the recently been some consultation
that the government's undertaken looking
at how we can increase uptake of these
vehicles, so it's looking like at some
point in the very near future legislation
is going to change that will allow them
to operate at slightly higher weights,
but without attracting all the additional
requirements that you might associate
with slightly heavier vehicles and this
is recognising the fact that battery's
weigh way more, light goods vehicles
are notoriously overloaded anyway, so,
and that's a definite challenge that
we have at DVSA dealing with that.
But by allowing them that increased
weight limit, it does make them a
much more viable option to use on
their own and of course we want to get
people away from fossil fuels anyway,
so, anything that we can do, whether
that's the DFT or DVSA, can only be
a good thing there, so, you know.
On behalf of all of us, Mark, thank
you so much for joining us today.
What an interesting episode that was,
great for you, our listeners, to have
a chance to hear direct from the DVSA.
Mark has left us with standout takeaways
such as the cost to the economy for
non compliant load security, but
more importantly the cost to lives.
To refresh your business on the
safety code of practice for load
security, please head to gov.uk
So that was our twelfth episode
and it brings our first season of
Driven By Excellence to a close.
We'd like to take the opportunity to thank
our listeners for your time investment and
most importantly for our expert guests.
After a short break, we will be back
with season two very soon, so stay tuned.
Thanks for tuning into this
episode of Driven by Excellence.
We hope you enjoyed listening, and if
you did, please don't forget to click
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For more information and to keep up to
date with industry news, head to our
website pdtfleettrainingsolutions.co.uk