Sisters In Sobriety

In today’s episode of Sisters in Sobriety, join Sonia and Kathleen as they discuss the intersection of art and sobriety. Discover how creativity becomes a sanctuary, offering solace and self-expression to those navigating the complexities of recovery. With their warm and insightful guidance, they'll show you how art can transform the recovery experience, making it more vibrant and fulfilling.

Dive deep into the heart of this episode as we explore pivotal questions: How can art aid in healing and recovery? What makes creative expression a powerful tool for emotional and psychological well-being? How do individuals find their unique artistic voice in their sobriety journey? Sonia and Kathleen tease out these inquiries, shedding light on the profound impact creativity has on the path to wellness.

Listeners will walk away with valuable insights into key concepts such as the therapeutic benefits of engaging in art, the role of creative activities in developing resilience and coping strategies, and how art therapy can be integrated into recovery programs. This episode is rich with educational takeaways, emphasizing the accessibility of art as a healing tool, regardless of one’s artistic skill level.

The personal story segment is a highlight, featuring Sonia’s own journey with art as a pivotal element of her recovery. Listeners will find inspiration and perhaps see reflections of their own experiences. T

This is Sisters in Sobriety, the support community that helps women change their relationship with alcohol. Check out our substack for extra tips, tricks, and resources, where we continue the conversation, offering more depth, encouragement, and companionship on your journey to a healthier relationship with alcohol through the power of creativity and shared experiences.

  • [00:03:32] Kathleen's insights on how art intersects with sobriety.
  • [00:05:17] Sonia's perspective on art as a medium for emotional expression.
  • [00:07:19] Personal impact of art on Sonia's recovery journey discussed.
  • [00:08:28] Kathleen shares her own creative outlets and their therapeutic effects.
  • [00:10:04] Sonia shares her realization of the newfound time and possibilities post-sobriety.
  • [00:12:14] Exploration of various artistic pursuits Sonia engaged in during her recovery.
  • [00:13:24] Encouragement for listeners to find their artistic pursuits.
  • [00:14:50] Discussion on the importance of exploring creativity regardless of skill level.
  • [00:18:15] Sonia delves into her personal evolution through photography and writing.
  • [00:20:33] Kathleen talks about the psychological and emotional benefits of creative activities.
  • [00:23:34] Explanation of formal art therapy sessions and their benefits.
  • [00:25:49] How art and creativity foster a sense of community in recovery.
  • [00:27:02] Reflecting on the episode's takeaways about creativity and brain chemistry.
  • [00:21:40] Discussion on art as a stress relief and mindfulness practice.
  • [00:24:39] Sonia on finding new aspects of her identity through art during recovery.

Sisters In Sobriety Substack - find more tips, tricks, resources, and community
Sisters In Sobriety Email 

Sonia's EverBlume Website
Sonia’s EverBlume Instagram

Kathleen’s Website *Kathleen does not endorse any products mentioned in this podcast*
Kathleen’s Instagram

What is Sisters In Sobriety?

You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.

In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.

Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.

Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!

Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.

Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.

Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016. Sonia is now the founder of EverBlume, a digital tool that offers a unique approach to alcohol recovery support.

Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.

Her online platform EverBlume launched in February 2023, and was featured in Recovery Today Magazine and deemed an ‘essential sobriety resource’ by the FemTech Insider.
The company champions self-improvement and mindful sobriety, with support groups designed by and for women struggling with alcohol.

So how can EverBlume help you meet your sober community? By offering deeply personalized support. Members get matched based on their profiles and life experiences, and take part in small group sessions (max. 16 people). In your support group, you will meet like-minded women, discuss your experiences, and gain confidence, knowing you can rely on your peers in times of need.

Whether you identify as a binge drinker, someone who developed a habit during the Covid-19 pandemic, a high-functioning alcoholic, or an anxious person using alcohol to self-soothe… There is a support group for you!

Current EverBlume members have praised the company’s unique approach to alcohol detox. “No one is judging me for not being sure I want to be sober for the rest of my life” ; “I felt so heard and understood and today I woke up feeling empowered to make the change in my life”.

Feeling inspired? Learn more about the EverBlume sobriety community at, or simply listen to Sisters In Sobriety.

Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:55] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in [00:01:00] Sobriety. Thanks for being here. I'm Sonia and I'm with my sister in sobriety, actually my sister in law, Kathleen. How are you doing today?

[00:01:07] Kathleen: I am doing great. We just finished a long family day weekend here in Ontario. Yes, it's called family day, and it was really nice. I got to spend time chilling out, which hasn't happened in a very long time. And how are you today?

[00:01:23] Sonia: I'm good. So I, of course, think family day is a fake Canadian holiday. so ended up sort of ignoring it, butI do think it's a really lovely idea to give people the day off to spend with their families. I don't know why all the stores and restaurants had to be closed, but, uh,

[00:01:41] Kathleen: Because that would take you away from your family.

[00:01:44] Sonia: Oh my God. I mean, what else can you do with your family other than shop and eat?

[00:01:51] Kathleen: Uh, hang out, play chess, play cards,

[00:01:55] Sonia: Uh, so guess what we're talking about today? We're talking about art and [00:02:00] creativity and how it can play a positive role in recovery. So many people find solace and strength in creativity during their sobriety journey like I do.

[00:02:11] Kathleen: Yeah, we're also going to be talking about how to incorporate art in your life, even if you've never picked up a paintbrush before, and how these creative outlets can be a part of maintaining sobriety and building a fulfilling life in recovery.

[00:02:26] Sonia: And we haven't forgotten about listeners who might be thinking, I'm not an artist. Believe me, I can barely draw a stick figure. But we want to talk about how creativity comes in many forms. And it's more about the process than the end product and expressing yourself, discovering new aspects of your identity and healing through the act of creation.

[00:02:50] Kathleen: Well, I am like you, I can barely draw a stick figure, but it doesn't mean that we can't be creative. So, today we're going to share insights on how art can aid in [00:03:00] expressing emotions, reducing your stress, and connecting with other people who are on a similar path. Whether you're an experienced artist or just starting to explore your creative side, there's something in today's episode for you.

[00:03:14] Sonia: So grab a cup of tea as we discuss the transformative power of creativity and see where it can take us in our sobriety and recovery. So, Kathleen, how do you think that sobriety and artistic expression intersect?

[00:03:32] Kathleen: Oh, my gosh, there are so many ways that art and sobriety intersect, and, it can really lead to transformative experiences and really, really help in the sobriety journey. So, first of all, for people who are in recovery, art can really be a therapeutic outlet, and it's a really beautiful nonverbal mode of expression and a way to process, experiences and emotions, art.

[00:03:58] can also lead [00:04:00] to self discovery and personal expression. So those people who are in sobriety, our listeners and others, can often embark on a journey of self reflection and growth and art can be that tool. So they can express their identity, their struggles, and their triumphs. Art Is also an incredible way to tell your story.

[00:04:21] That could be the story about addiction and recovery. And there's also, present moment awareness and mindfulness in art. So the process of creating art requires you to be present in the moment, which are very, very crucial skills in sobriety. And not only that, in art can come. Community and connection.

[00:04:43] so these are just some of the ways, but as you can tell, there are a lot of ways that art and sobriety intersect. What do you think? How do you think creativity fits in with the sobriety journey?

[00:04:55] Sonia: Yeah, I think that you have so many new feelings when you're going through initial [00:05:00] sobriety, that it's a way to convey those feelings and thoughts and experiences in a tangible, or even in an abstract way. So when words just aren't enough, or it feels too heavy, you get art swooping in and giving those emotions a place to land.

[00:05:17] So I think of it as like having a conversation without needing to say anything, and it really allows you to channel all those new emotions into something you can see and touch. And Whether it's like a splash of paint on a canvas, or a sketch, in your journal, early on in sobriety, it feels like you're just on this emotional roller coaster, and it can get really overwhelming.

[00:05:41] And I think art can feel like a pause button, and it's just a minute to breathe, and be with yourself, and just focus on nothing else but creating something. And somehow in that space, things just feel a little bit I

[00:05:58] Kathleen: What can this mean for our [00:06:00] listeners?

[00:06:01] Sonia: think sometimes you don't even realize what's been bubbling up inside, until it sort of spills out on whatever creative, piece of expression you're working on. And I think it's a really unique way to say, like, this is me, and this is my journey. And what I really like is that it acts as like a visual diary of where you've been, and things you've gotten through, and how far you've come.

[00:06:26] So I love the idea of looking back at your own creative expression as a reminder of your progress. What do you think listeners should be thinking about?

[00:06:35] Well, I think that some of our listeners right now are potentially being like this episode isn't for me and I just to them, I just want to say, hold on, just hold on because even if you haven't. You know, been artistic in the past. It doesn't mean that you don't have creativity that can come out. It doesn't mean that you can't participate in art.

[00:06:58] Kathleen: And I think [00:07:00] there are so many ways to do it. Even if you, you feel that you don't have talent. It's not the end result. Actually, that's. The aim when we're talking about art and sobriety. So I would just say, just pause for a second, keep listening and, and see how art can really truly become part of your sobriety journey.

[00:07:19] So how Sonia has incorporating art and creativity in your sobriety journey impacted your recovery process?

[00:07:27] Sonia: Yeah, it really has become My voice when I found it hard to speak and so I know everyone loves hearing about my divorce, but I remember when I was going through that without even realizing it, I was making, so I do fine art photography and so I was making, a lot of art with like book motifs and like writing motifs.

[00:07:51] So, the idea that I was unable to get out. what I was saying. And so, yeah, it's just a great outlet for all those things. you're [00:08:00] learning about yourself and things I wasn't ready to talk about. Um, and also. I struggled too with causing shame to my loved ones by talking about my sobriety and this like deep fear of labeling myself as an alcoholic, or even admitting how hard it was for me not to drink.

[00:08:18] So when I was going through that I think you need an escape and I really just couldn't keep those Feelings bottled up inside. So, what about you?

[00:08:28] Kathleen: Well, I, I am not much of a visual artist and this alone causes me some shame because I come from a family of artists, Like real working artists, that have lots of this skill and creativity. And I've always felt like art isn't necessarily for me, even though I've really appreciate it.

[00:08:47] But for me, writing has always been my thing. So creative writing, and. To be honest, when I was going through my divorce, I started blogging about my divorce and, I started [00:09:00] talking about it a little bit more, and that was a creative outlet for me. Once upon a time, I, loved acting and drama, and so I think When I was younger, that was a creative outlet for me, but now it's really in writing and I'd say photography, not in the way that you do it, but I love taking photos and, I think that it has been.

[00:09:25] really cathartic. The writing piece has really been cathartic.

[00:09:30] Sonia: Yeah, I think that any difficult time you're going through, whether it's like sobriety or just like a tough emotional situation where you're like feeling all the feels, it can be a little disorienting and I think that art can be grounding.

[00:09:45] Kathleen: Yeah, I agree. I think finding those outlets for healthy emotions is a really, really healthy way to cope with feelings.

[00:09:54] Sonia: For sure, it's so much healthier than what I was doing before, which was drinking.

[00:09:58] Kathleen: I remember when you were [00:10:00] looking for healthy outlets. Do you want to tell us a little bit about this time?

[00:10:04] Sonia: So, when I got sober, there were a few things that were eye opening, and one was how much time I had. In the evenings and that I could do anything with that time. There are no limitations because I could drive anywhere. I could process information at any time. I was going to remember the things I was doing so I could do more important things.

[00:10:29] And so I just started off first by wanting to fill those hours and test out. things I couldn't do before. And for me, a big thing was taking classes because, you work all day and then I would be drinking most of the evening. So taking a class was out of the question. And so, I just systematically was testing out different interests.

[00:10:53] I knew that I needed something to fill those hours and I knew there was something inside me I needed. to express. I still [00:11:00] had a lot of anxiety that I had been using alcohol to calm and I still needed another outlet. So I started signing up for a website that offered a ton of online classes and I could just try something and if I didn't like it, no big deal.

[00:11:16] I Tried wood carving, I tried wood burning, but I actually, I don't know if you've noticed. I do have a couple of interesting coasters, and it wasn't for me. I did a flower arranging class and then I did some beginner photography classes. I did jewelry making

[00:11:30] Kathleen: do like chocolate making

[00:11:32] Sonia: I sure did with, with a really famous chocolatier in, New York, so I think that's important to you. so what are the workshops in your area? So that chocolate workshop was like, down the street from my house and I did gardening workshops at New York Botanical Garden.

[00:11:50] I did bonsai classes. I did Baking classes. I did a cake making class at the New York Cake Academy. So, but in the end, I really [00:12:00] just started to enjoy photography. And I loved the idea of capturing something that only I could see and I loved learning about light. And so after a few classes, I signed up for a certificate in photography, at an institute in Philly

[00:12:14] And then I also realized I wanted. To write and so I wrote a couple of creative nonfiction essays for a few share your sobriety story columns and I really loved how much it felt like people were getting out of it. And so I started signing up for writing classes and. I'm still taking one now.

[00:12:33] It's called Courage and the Page. And so, I'm, yeah, I'm being courageous and putting things down on the page. And I go between like formal creative things and totally informal. So I would say right now my photography is It's informal, no purpose, I'm not creating a series of images, I'm just capturing stuff I find interesting.

[00:12:55] And the writing is also a little informal, I'm not working towards a bigger [00:13:00] essay, I'm just trying out a few new techniques.

[00:13:03] Kathleen: So how, you've just done, you've listed so many, I'm like blown away by the, by the amount, I didn't really realize about the bonsai class. So how can people start thinking about artistic pursuits, especially if they feel like they're not naturally talented or creative?

[00:13:24] Sonia: Yeah, so I am really the least skilled visual artist, so just keep in mind it should be fun, it shouldn't feel like work, and you need to start thinking about, I know this is vague, but what sparks your soul, and if you love reading, Maybe you'll like writing. If you love music, maybe you'll want to learn to play the guitar.

[00:13:49] So there are so many potential creative pursuits and it doesn't just have to be like what we think art is. I think that cooking can [00:14:00] be artistic, especially baking. And, do you want to do something community oriented? You want to do dance classes? I did. I did take a hip hop class. It was horrific. I should have known when it was 90 minutes that things were going to go south. I almost threw up after because it was so hard. I remember like walking home and almost like vomiting.

[00:14:25] Kathleen: Girl, I used to be in a hip hop troupe.

[00:14:30] Yeah, in university.

[00:14:33] Sonia: I love that so much for us. I love the idea of us doing a hip hop, routine

[00:14:38] Kathleen: Oh my gosh, for TikTok? This will never happen, dear listeners,

[00:14:42] Sonia: What I, I have sent you guys TikTok dances to do, and then no one ever wants to do them with me.

[00:14:50] Kathleen: Yeah, no.

[00:14:50] Sonia: Okay, back on topic is like, so, yeah, I didn't know that there were things like, you can join a maker studio so you can interact with other [00:15:00] artists.

[00:15:00] So I, had friends that joined a maker studio who did jewelry making and also that way you have a few more resources. So they may havesoldering equipment that, you wouldn't normally have.

[00:15:11] so art isn't just about making things look pretty.

[00:15:14] It's really a way to connect with yourself and others. And whether you're doodling in a notebook or throwing clay on a wheel, I don't think it really matters.

[00:15:22] Kathleen: Yeah. I mean, you've, you've mentioned a few reasons, resources that people can find in their community, like a maker studio, but what are some other resources people can use to [00:16:00] find if to find their own creative passion?

[00:16:03] Sonia: Yeah, I think online courses are such a great way to start, especially since the pandemic. you can find online courses anywhere. I signed up for creative live, which I love. They had so many in depth classes. So that's where I took flower arranging my initial photography classes, but they also have painting and sculpture classes.

[00:16:23] I think other websites like Udemy or Skillshare. Craftsy I signed up for. So it has a bunch of different crafting classes and then there are in person workshops. You can try a course horse meetups and some stores even have classes like Michael's will have like a, Christmas wreath class.

[00:16:45] I did an embroidery class at a, an embroidery store. So I've done knitting classes at yarn stores. I'm going on a yarn crawl. Yeah, it's actually I think like you are coming to visit and I [00:17:00] think you're leaving and I'm going to the Yarn Cross. You won't be able to come.

[00:17:04] Kathleen: I'm not going to leave. Because actually knitting is something I really, I used to knit all the time. And I haven't knit in like two decades. So maybe I'm not leaving on that day.

[00:17:15] Sonia: I have three knitting projects on the go right now. Yeah, so also, it's a great way to find community. So cooking classes, they have them sometimes at restaurants. and I honestly, I still do this, which is if I get an idea of something crafty, I want, I wanted to, I'll order a kit from Amazon.

[00:17:32] So, and a lot of my clients do this too. They order adult coloring books. Beading projects. I had a client that was doing these ornaments calligraphy kit flower preservation. So I think that's a good way to test it out to Amazon has tons of kits and not just Amazon Etsy has tons of craft kits.

[00:17:55] Kathleen: I feel like the term art has, such a broad meaning and such different meanings for [00:18:00] different people.

[00:18:00] Sonia: Yeah, for sure it does. I would have never described myself as artistic, but something changed when I got sober.

[00:18:07] Kathleen: I really noticed that change in you. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it?


[00:18:15] Sonia: I just really needed an outlet and I think it was subconscious at first. my goal when I first started photography was just nature photography and I just wanted to know like, Huh, what lenses do you use for landscapes versus flowers? And then it just grew from there. And then I started manipulating landscapes.

[00:18:33] getting a little more autistic I started spray painting leaves in this metallic paint and then dropping them in the creek. I don't know if you remember this project I did.

[00:18:42] Kathleen: Yes, I do remember this

[00:18:43] Sonia: Yeah, and I would drop them in the creek and then I would photograph them as they floated with the current towards the river.

[00:18:49] And then I just ended up taking a class where we had to have a viewpoint or a common theme for all our images. And that's when I started thinking. More directly about my [00:19:00] sobriety and I tried a few different things and I landed on self portraits, really heavily manipulated and composited fine art photography and all these feelings started to come out.

[00:19:12] So about my anxiety. About how I was always pretending I was okay about my need to numb emotions and just that feeling of crawling out of your skin and not knowing who I really was. And so I really did for the first time in my life start expressing these feelings in a way I could never have done with words and then.

[00:19:37] I started writing narratives around the images and I was just really able to explore the feelings more andwhen my ex husband, love talking about this divorce, when my ex husband left I was in the middle of a writing class and so I really, really tried to pour what I was feeling out on the paper and it was [00:20:00] Excruciating.

[00:20:01] I remember there were classes where I couldn't even turn my camera on Zoom because I was crying so much, but it was cathartic. And I sometimes will go back and read. what I wrote around that time and you know what, it doesn't have to be an essay. it can be a haiku, it could be like a three line poem.

[00:20:19] So in what ways can art serve as a medium for expressing emotions and experiences that might be difficult to articulate through words alone?

[00:20:33] Kathleen: Well, I think words are just one form of expression, and quite frankly, the English language doesn't have many words for specific nuanced feelings. and art is a wonderful way to express oneself, not just through words, but through color and light and, you know, texture and all sorts of different things.

[00:20:56] Sonia: Yeah, so last week we were, having dinner [00:21:00] with you and my niece and you were asking her to describe what color her feelings were. And I remember being like, what the f What the fuck are you talking about?

[00:21:13] And I did think about it later and was like, Oh yeah, you can use colors to

[00:21:18] describe feelings

[00:21:20] Kathleen: you

[00:21:20] Can. also use texture to describe feelings too. Like, is it scratchy? Is it?

[00:21:24] Sonia: It's so funny. I was just like, can we get on with this? I was like, we have something we really want to talk about. You're sitting there asking about colors and now I really get it. Can you talk about the psychological and emotional benefits of? engagingin creative activities?

[00:21:40] how does art making contribute to stress reduction, anxiety management, and overall mental well being?

[00:21:48] Kathleen: well, it's that's a multi part question.yes, art is definitely stress relief. It can facilitate emotional expression and mindfulness. It can also give you a sense of accomplishment. [00:22:00] But it can also change your brain chemistry, so engaging in creative activities can increase the brain's production of dopamine, for example, which is associated with feelings of pleasure and reward, and it can create a natural high and improve your mood when you are engaged in regular.

[00:22:21] artistic, creative activities. This can also enhance your cognitive abilities. And, we haven't done an episode on, On the brain and sobriety, but it also helps increase brain plasticity. So this is really, really great for aging people, but also anything from mental sharpness and, overall mood.

[00:22:44] So there is also this point when you're making art and interesting. I'm going to do a shout out to my mom because she's quite an artist and my daughter is too, and they both describe being in the flow. And so I get like this when I write, [00:23:00] meaning time just stands still. I don't really know how much time has passed.

[00:23:05] but art can really provide, a distraction from painful or troubling thoughts. It doesn't mean that You're hiding from it. It just means that art can really be an immersive experience and you can be in that flow state, which is really therapeutic and calming and it can allow people to take a break from anxiety or stress.

[00:23:27] Sonia: Wow, it sounds like therapy. Can you tell us a bit about formal art therapy sessions?

[00:23:34] Kathleen: Sure. Art therapy is like, counseling. It is counseling. It's therapy, where you get to make art in a way that helps you feel better and understand yourself more. So, an art therapist is usually a trained individual who's a therapist and is also trained in art therapy. Instead of just talking about your feelings, you get to draw or paint or use clay or just show what you're [00:24:00] thinking or feeling.

[00:24:00] And it's great for anyone who finds it hard to put their feelings into words. You have to focus on being creative, not so much on the end piece. So it can help with all sorts of problems. Like grief, stress, trauma, and it's for everyone. For kids, adults, it doesn't matter if you're good at art or not.

[00:24:22] And an art therapist, just like a regular therapist, would make sure that everything you do and say stays confidential. How can, how has engaging with art and creativity influenced your sense of identity or helped you discover new aspects of yourself during recovery?

[00:24:39] Sonia: Yeah, I really was always someone and I talked to a lot of people who are similar that derive their self worth and identity from working and achieving. And when I was growing up, there were no hobbies or interests that were encouraged.

[00:24:54] So I started doing things just because I wanted to do them because they made me happy or [00:25:00] calm. And yeah, I've been knitting a lot lately. And so the goal, yeah, right, is to finish a piece, but I don't have a timeframe and may, I'm knitting a scarf right now and like maybe I won't be done till next winter, which is.

[00:25:15] Fine, I'm not going to turn everything into, an achievement. So I'm not going to knit a hundred pieces and sell them on Etsy. which you could, but for me, it's really good to do things just because I want to do them. And also identity is huge. I'd always seen myself as just analytical, left brained, and this really helped me see myself as a whole person with different aspects.

[00:25:42] Kathleen: How can art and creativity foster a sense of community and connection with, with people in recovery?

[00:25:49] Sonia: Yeah, I love the sense of community that you can get from artistic endeavors. So I love going to my writing classes and hearing other people's ideas. And when [00:26:00] I was taking photography classes, it was really scary to show my work. I remember we had to show it at the beginning of each class, but it was also really freeing and it was great to get feedback.

[00:26:12] So yeah,sharing is a really special part of creative things, but it doesn't have to be. It can be something you do solo, but it can also be nice to share it.

[00:26:22] Kathleen: Mm hmm. So, so what resonated, with you today from our episode?

[00:26:26] Sonia: really didn't know much about how creativity affects the brain, so I am really curious about that, that, yeah, I didn't realize that, there were neurotransmitters being, released during creative Process. I like knowing, that there's a reason behind, for example, if I'm like watching Love is Blind and knitting, there's a reason it feels good.

[00:26:53] Kathleen: It could be just love is blind, though.

[00:26:55] Sonia: Oh, God, you got to watch this seasonThere's something going on. That's crazy.[00:27:00] what resonated with you?

[00:27:02] Kathleen: Well, I think what resonated with me is more a personal observation. I think that so much of what I do these days is about, Achieving actually, because, as I build a practice and there used to be much more art and creativity in my life and there isn't anymore. And so I think that what resonated with me is that that needs to change.

[00:27:24] so I'm coming to see you in a couple of weeks and I would like to do some sort of craft project or art something. I have a list of goals in my, for my year and, obviously I have like five year goals and things like that and creativity, artistic expression is not one of those goals.

[00:27:44] And so I'm going to just reframe that, and put that in there so that I think this whole episode has actually resonated with me.

[00:27:51] Sonia: I love that. And we are doing craft project. We're making spring wreaths when you come.

[00:27:57] Kathleen: Are we really?

[00:27:58] Sonia: we sure are

[00:27:59] Kathleen: [00:28:00] Oh, yes. I am so excited about that.

[00:28:03] That's amazing.

[00:28:04] Sonia: I'm going to get, yeah, I'm going to get the stuff together. We're making spring wreaths.

[00:28:08] Kathleen: Well, it's a really good thing we did this episode now then, because I would have been like, oh, I have stuffto do. But now I'm going to be like, yes, I would really love to make my spring read. Well, thank you for listening today to Sisters in Sobriety. And we will see you next week when we're going to talk about milestones in sobriety. [00:29:00]