Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Hello.

Hey, Paul.

Good morning.

How you doing?

Doing well.

I say, I woke up this morning.

I was I set my alarm for 6 50, which
is a little ambitious on my part.

We start this podcast at third.

We, one of us shows up at
the other's apartment at 7 a.

But not today.

Today I woke up, I came downstairs
from my regular let's just say process.

And I hear a little knock on the door.

Very gentle.

I was, the lights were off.

I didn't want to like, I was
going to, I was about to early.

Just a minute or two early.

He was so early and so rude and I had
to, in my underwear, open the door.

You weren't in your
underwear you were fine.

Everything was fine.

I was maybe a minute or two early
because I did the delicious thing

where I walked here from back heights.

Yeah.

Wow.

Which is, that is a
long way, which is nice.

Yeah.

I really enjoy it.

How long did that take?

Forty five minutes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Tom walks like a maniac.

Tom walks like he has
I walk extremely fast.

It's the last time.

It's bad.

It's bad for my blood pressure, probably.

Okay.

But yeah.

I like it.

Yeah.

So that's how the morning got started.

Yeah.

It was nice.

Yeah.

Tom He's probably the only
person for whom we do not clean

the house before he arrives.

Which, I've made the point,
is very flattering to me.

So flattering.

Yes, I like it.

I like seeing you guys as you
actually As we actually are.

The slobs that we actually are.

Okay, I don't agree with that.

Yeah okay, Paul, this is blunt, but you
mentioned before we were talking about

this episode before, and there was a
little story that you said you wanted

to bring up, just because you thought
it would be meaty and juicy for the

podcast, or just because you like it.

I love this story.

I'm going to just invite you to tell that.

Thank you for the setup.

Okay.

All right.

So here's the story.

When I was in India earlier, like
last year, last summer, I spent some

time with the pasta's grandfather.

Or, excuse me, uncle with Possum's uncle.

And he told me, he confessed to me
late at night a truth that he's been

living with for his whole life that I
just find absolutely mind boggling and

has really impacted my life, actually.

Okay.

So what was happening is Upas
and I were working zombie hours.

We were working San Francisco time, which
is literally 11 and a half hours flip.

So we were up all night and we were
surprised to find that Upas's uncle was

also happily up and he would just he would
just, usually when people are groggy,

they'll come out and they'll, maybe
they'll say a few words and, good night.

But he was awake, he was just, he was
animated and the same way he is normally.

To be fair, during the day
he's also a little bit groggy.

So he's he seemed that way all the time.

But we were surprised to find that
he was like, at all hours of the

night willing to chat with us.

And it was during one of these hours of
the night that he confessed that he has

not slept since he was 18 years old.

Wow.

He has not slept.

Okay.

And what happened How old is he now?

And he's, yeah, he's in his like mid 60s.

Oh my god.

So he's look, I haven't
slept since I was 18.

And he's tried all manner of
he was very concerned, right?

For the first 20 years,
he was very concerned.

Yeah, about 24 hours of
that transpirant, yeah.

Yes, and he went to every doctor and
he tried every remedy and apparently

the only remedy that works is opioids,
But he didn't want to stay on that.

So he's just made peace with
the fact that he does not sleep.

And so what he does now his
terminology for it, which I

love is he puts in the hours.

And what does that mean for him?

It means that he he goes to
bed at the appropriate hours.

And he lays there with his
arms flat by his sides.

Okay.

And he slows down his breathing.

I see.

And he tries to slow down his thoughts.

Imitates me.

And he puts in the hours.

Okay, except apparently sometimes he gets
up and talks to you in a positive way.

Yeah, sometimes there's
something fun to do.

Yeah, you have to take a
break while you're working.

You can't constrain yourself.

Yeah.

But he's learned that if he doesn't
Put in the hours, then he really

he starts to really break down.

But if he just puts in the hours, the
full eight hours of just laying there,

it's a fascinating medical premise.

Yeah.

He'll be okay.

He'll just feel very groggy
during the day, but it's not

like he'll be able to function.

I say, so he has lived the last
40 years being very groggy.

Oh my God.

That sounds awful, but alive.

Yes.

I wonder, did you bring up.

Marcus Aurelius or Stoicism at all.

It feels like a guy who
maybe could use a philosophy.

I think that is his Stoicism.

I don't think he needs
anything else in life.

You're right, actually.

Did you encourage him
to write a book at all?

More than anything, I just took this, I'm
like a squirrel, I put it in my cheek and

I've just been nibbling on it ever since.

It's just so delicious, this idea that
Oh, you think you're you have a problem.

Yeah, imagine not being
able to sleep for 45 years.

Oh my god It also raises like medical
questions for me about have we

misunderstood The importance of sleep all
this time and what actually matters is

putting in the hours as you put it just
being stationary for some period of hours

every day is what matters but the actual
act of sleeping is not as important as

we think it He's a university professor
he said that He picks a thoughts, a

direction that he wants to go and he just
mulls it over for a few hours at a time.

And then he picks a new thought,
but he mulls it over slowly.

He says, eventually he like, it's
not as fast as thinking during

the day, but it like works.

It sounds like another way of
looking at it is he's achieving

some sort of super high level kind
of state where he's like super in

control of the flow of his thoughts.

That would be nice, but I
think the reality is like.

I knew this about him even
before he told me this story.

He has the ability to,
he'll fall asleep anywhere.

We'll go on a 10 minute car ride like not
asleep, but like his version of a sleep,

which is closed eyes and slumped over.

He can do it on a 10 minute car ride.

He can do it in a lull in
conversation at dinner.

And so I think it's just, that's
just the state he lives in.

He chooses to put in the hours during
the time when there's no sun out,

but he could just, do it any time.

The middle of the day or whatever.

Wow.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

I can see why you're, yes, as you say.

Like a squirrel putting it in your
cheek or whatever because yeah,

it is a Nice dose of perspective.

Yeah.

Do you think you've got you
think you have some you got up?

You got something that's bothering you.

What if you hadn't slept?

How delicious is sleep?

Think about that next time you're
in the process of going to bed

you and I especially both Yeah,
long history of loving sleep.

We both sleep a lot.

Yeah Imagine not being able to.

I, this is morbid, I genuinely am
not sure life would be worth it.

Truthfully.

One of the most basic pleasures of life.

Yeah.

His son doesn't have it.

That's okay, that's good.

I think in some ways that
makes it all worth it.

Yeah, you just, you didn't pass it on.

Boy, it seems yeah, that's good.

It's still a small comfort for
the guy who has to live with it.

Yeah.

Oof.

Okay.

There you go.

That's my stoicism story.

Yeah.

I think though, I think that is about
as good an anecdote as we could possibly

have in terms of relationship to this.

I do wonder, actually, now
that we're talking about it, I

wonder if any historian knows
about how much Marcus slept.

He seems like he might have
been one of those guys who

didn't maybe didn't get a ton.

That's a good question.

Yeah, I read a biography about
Marcus, and it was dolefully short.

There wasn't really not that much.

Yeah, we don't know.

So one other history.

This is barely even a fun fact, but
we're recording this on leap day today.

Today is February 29th.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, so that's fun.

And there is a historical
misconception, I think, that

Julius Caesar invented leaf day.

Because, we use the
Julian calendar and stuff.

People think that it was his idea.

But I'm here to be a bummer and
say the Egyptians invented it.

It predates him, actually.

They had already figured out
the whole, we need a calendar.

Which is pretty amazing actually.

. Yeah.

I don't know how you do that.

Yeah.

It turns out this, yeah, they're counting
how many days between the seasons or

whatever, and they're like 365 is close.

It's not quite, but not quite.

Every fourth year we need to add a day.

Isn't it like 365.27 or
something like that, isn't it?

Not exactly 0.25.

It's, I thought it was actually 0.24.

Okay.

So I think there actually is an
allowance for that in the Leap

Day formula too, where every.

Couple hundred years, right?

Like on the hundred.

Love it.

We skipped the leap day
to, to compensate for that.

Yes.

Yeah, we thought of that.

Yeah.

So there's, it's, I think
we're set for several thousand

years anyway in terms of Yeah.

Keeping, keeping
everything amazing in sync.

Amazing.

And what would happen if
we didn't take this day?

Slowly over years slowly the
calendar would get shifted.

I see.

Like eventually December would be in
the summer in the Northern Hemisphere

or whatever, because we could be fun.

It would be confusing historically, maybe.

It wouldn't, yeah.

You want a date to refer to a position
around the sun, and we would lose that.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Okay.

Happy Leap Day, everyone.

Happy Leap Day.

This is, thank you, Julius.

Yes.

Not, no.

Thank you Egyptians for figuring
that out very impressively.

Yeah.

Cool.

Should we dive in?

Let's dive in.

Let's do it.

Cool.

Okay.

So our last last episode, we left
off with Marcus talking about how

he if you're breathing smoke, you
can leave, which is to say, if life

is bad for you, you can just quit.

I love this.

It's the classic when you come, when
you want to complain to Marcus, it's

just, you can always just kill yourself.

Okay.

We're at book five and this is number 30.

The world's intelligence is not selfish.

Whoa.

It created lower things for the
sake of higher ones, and attuned

the higher ones to one another.

Look how it subordinates, how it
connects, how it assigns each thing

what it each deserves, and brings
the better things into alignment.

What a doozy!

Yeah, that's, The world's
intelligence is not selfish.

If the world's intelligence was selfish,
it would only make really smart things.

Yeah, or it was like, yeah, somehow
or focus on a couple, like my, the

purpose of the world is to serve this
one beautiful thing or whatever, and

everything else just serves that.

But it doesn't do that.

It's this distributed system of
beauty and higher and lower things.

Yeah.

This is profound.

I think it took humans a long time for
like philosophically for us to believe

that, okay, animals are cool too.

So there is a first, the first
sentence here, it created lower

things for the sake of higher ones.

That's true, it does
still create lower things.

Yeah, I recoil at that a little bit.

I guess he's speaking, like that must
be how people thought at the time.

It's very unlikely that everyone
was like, yes, the butterfly is

just as important as the human.

And I, to be generous to him, we
could interpret lower and higher.

So he might think of all animals as
being higher, and for instance dirt

that the worm eats or whatever is lower.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, so he's being vague
about lower and higher.

So I can get on board.

Marcus being vague?

Yeah, but it's a nice sentiment that
he's just marveling at the complexity of

the world and how all the puzzle pieces
fit together in all these impressive

ways, including lots of ways that We
know about now that they didn't know

about back then, but even he could see,
oh yeah, wow, the world is complicated

and interlocking and and beautiful.

It's profound.

Yeah, I agree.

It's lovely.

Alright.

Reality check time.

Number 31.

How have you behaved to the gods, to
your parents, to your siblings, to

your wife, to your children, to your
teachers, to your nurses, to your friends,

to your relatives, to your slaves?

Have they all had from you
nothing, quote, wrong and unworthy,

either word or deed, end quote?

Consider all that you've gone through.

All that you've survived.

And that the story of your life is done.

Your assignment complete.

End quote.

How many good things have you seen?

How much pain and pleasure
have you resisted?

How many honors have you declined?

How many unkind people
have you been kind to?

Okay.

I'm interested in those last
couple of questions, actually.

Yeah, they get more and more specific.

Yeah, and also How much pain
and pleasure have you resisted?

How many honors have you declined?

Yeah, both of them.

I guess they both they both feel
very connected to our modern concept

of stoicism to me about yes, your
job here is to just be stationary

and resistant, but it's odd.

He's doing something that we can
recognize, or I feel like I could

recognize in the first paragraph
about at the end of your life.

The measure of it will be how you
treated these various people, but

then he does go on this, what feels
like a left turn at the end with.

The last one, how many unkind
people do you I love the last one.

Yeah.

Yeah, that one's interesting.

What I love about it is that
he goes halfway to absolution.

Yeah, I agree.

But he still thinks they're unkind.

Yes, there are unkind
He doesn't forgive them.

There are unkind people.

In this particular question, he is
not being kind to the unkind people.

But it is a thing that he
has done in other moments.

Yeah, exactly.

It's yeah.

It's the classic let's agree to disagree.

Or the, , I for Yeah.

Basically that I forgive you
kind of argument in a fight where

it's , I still think you're wrong.

Yeah.

, you're not really, yeah.

You're not really forgiving me.

Yeah.

Okay.

Interesting.

Yeah.

. Yeah.

This is a very, yeah.

Okay so some measure of what
actually matters in life, which is

being kind and doing good things.

Yeah.

But also.

Resisting.

Yeah, and some weird other stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

A very Marcus way I would say of measuring
the quality of one's life at its end.

Yeah Number 32 Why do other souls
unskilled untrained disturb the

soul with skill and understanding
and Then we have a dialogue in

response to this and which is that?

The one that knows the beginning and
the end, and knows the Logos that runs

through all things, and that assigns
to all a place, each in its allotted

span, throughout the whole of time.

Oh, Marcus, lovely.

Thank you for this
thread of a thought here.

Okay, I think, let me do my best
to understand what's going on here.

Some idiot has bothered Marcus.

Some unskilled soul.

And yeah, let's point out that
yeah, he's using the word soul here.

So this disturbance is not just
in a fleeting, temporary way.

Something has disturbed Marcus's soul.

And then we have this little
conversational saying, wait,

which soul is the one that has
the skill and understanding?

Oh, okay.

And he's saying, so in other
words, what's so special about me?

Okay.

And then he tells you what's so special
about him, that he's the one that

knows the beginning and the end and
understands the system of the world.

I think that's basically
all that's being said.

Here is it doesn't answer the question
why these unskilled untrained soul, right?

He just goes on a tangent Yeah, he just
posits a question and then clarifies

what he's talking about with the question
but doesn't as far as I can tell answer

Very immodest Unless there's something
maybe we're missing something but it

does seem like I know the beginning and
the end Yeah, and Assigns everything to

its place throughout the whole of time.

This is my other favorite
thing about Marcus's.

Yeah is he his whole like from the
beginning he's like he can tell

good from evil Yes, he you know
knows the beginning in the end

Yeah, it's extremely Presumptuous
yeah, I mean He's the emperor.

He's the emperor.

And he's being told, he's been told all
that stuff presumably his whole life.

And not just the emperor, but he can
probably maybe even tell that he is an

especially wise and thoughtful emperor.

Yeah.

It, part of me, this makes me think,
there's an angle on this whole, there's

a way to look at this whole situation.

Okay, so this emperor guy, uh,
goes to Greece or whatever.

And, is, and all these different
philosophical clubs are vying for

his patronage because it's good to
have the emperor be your patron.

And they're just like, no,
you're really special, Marcus.

You're, you understand the beginning and
the end and all these untrained souls.

It's like a cult, right?

Like you have to establish
the other in the cult.

Totally.

Yeah.

And I feel like he's just fell for it.

Like fully fell for it.

He's I am special.

Yes.

I think that's that totally And there's
still something funny about That feels

like there's tension with other parts
where he's but all of you may also like

a hundred years from now, everyone will
have forgotten everything and we're all

just going to be, it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

And I guess you must not really
believe the latter or, part of the

book is expressing that paradox.

Actually.

He's there's truth in both in . Yeah.

My soul is different and whatever,
which I think we would agree is true.

Yeah.

And like the temporary of it
all in humanity is also true.

Yeah.

This is the answer to existentialism.

It's to simultaneously, yeah.

Believe that nothing matters.

And have something you believe in.

Care about it.

At the same time.

Yep.

Totally.

So he's doing that, yeah.

I think he definitely does the
former, and the latter it feels

like he's inconsistent about.

Yeah.

He definitely believes oh
yeah, ashes to ashes, whatever.

Yeah.

And then, sometimes he's But the right
and wrong, the concept of right and wrong,

means that he believes in something.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right.

Yeah.

So Bye.

Yeah.

He doesn't explore that very, no.

He never goes into like
the way very coherently.

Yeah.

He never goes into the why, but yeah.

It's not, yeah.

It's also not really even the
structure, it would be hard, even

like in the format of this book.

Yeah.

I feel like to Yeah.

Really explore that.

Yeah.

One, one other little tidbit that Tom and
I discussed in the interim is we are going

to get a, some kind of, home adornments.

Oh, yeah.

Inspired by this book.

Thank you for bringing this up.

I've, I had completely
forgotten to bring this up.

So something I'm thinking
like a wood engraving.

Yeah.

Right over our respective beds.

And the inspiration for this was a, was
an entry from a couple of episodes ago.

Yeah.

Where he's talking, he's having a
little dialogue with himself about bed.

Getting out of bed.

Yeah.

And he's.

That one of the voices says but
it's so nice here dot and it's

just extolling the virtues of Yes.

And just humanizing the guy, basically.

Yes, totally.

And that guy ends up losing, I think,
in the debate, not surprisingly.

But it, yes, it gave us the idea, which
we think is funny, to have, yes, some sort

of Mark, comforting Marcus Aurelius quote.

Yep.

That is about coziness and hominess.

If we can find one in the tech
somewhere, we decided that particular

quote about, but it's so nice here.

The tech, it's just it
wouldn't quite scan.

I had it in my cart.

I had it all ready.

And I was, my finger was hovering over
the button and I thought to myself,

Maybe there's something better.

Yeah, I think that's we have only a
third of the way through we have an

opportunity to Hunt for something better.

So I would say so far in
this particular episode.

Nothing has leapt out at me.

Yeah as Exceeding that but yes,
we want to Live laugh love style.

Yeah.

Something you would see in an AirBNB.

We can elect at the end of
every episode we can say which

of, which was the best line.

I'm gonna I'm eyeing and which is that.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I really like the, You like the theme?

You like the theme of hominess?

The, yeah.

I feel like that is more, that will
make the joke clearer if there can be

something that is like related to that.

But it doesn't necessarily
have to be something like that.

Yeah, I'm open to anything at this point.

I would say in terms of stuff we've
read recently, the one about smoke

seems like the, that would be.

We could put it outside
next to your barbecue.

Yeah, genius.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, that's not bad.

That's probably in terms of recent stuff
we've read, that's my pick at the moment.

Okay, cool.

Alright, okay, 33 actually has a nice
contender here, right at the beginning.

Soon you'll be ashes, or bones.

Or bones.

Yeah, one or the other, they
might not decide to burn you.

A mere name at most, and even
that is just a sound, an echo.

The things we want in life
are empty, stale, and trivial.

Dogs snarling at each other,
quarreling children, laughing and then

bursting into tears a moment later.

Trust, shame, justice, truth, gone from
the earth and only found in heaven.

Why are you still here?

Sensory objects are shifting and unstable.

Our senses dim and easily deceived.

The soul itself, a decoction of the blood.

Fame in a world like this is worthless.

And wait for it patiently.

Annihilation or metamorphosis.

And until that time comes, what?

Honor and revere the gods, treat human
beings as they deserve, be tolerant

with others, and strict with yourself.

Remember, nothing belongs to you
but your flesh and blood, and

nothing else is under your control.

Ooh.

Yeah.

Marcus.

Okay, I was really hoping he
would answer the question.

The, why are you still here question.

He didn't really answer it.

He just moved on and said, while
you're here, do these things.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Why are we still here, Marcus?

Yeah.

The soul itself is a
decoction of the blood.

I have a bone to pick with our translator.

That is not a word.

What are you talking about?

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah.

Fame in a world like this is worthless.

Sensory objects are shifting and unstable.

Yeah.

I like the analogies.

Dogs snarling at each other and
quarreling children who burst into tears.

And it's just like very, I guess
the analogy is it's noisy and

it seems important at the time,
but it really doesn't matter.

Yeah, it's very temporary little
bursts of experience, yeah.

Which is a cool analogy.

Yeah, I agree.

That's nice.

Trust, shame, justice,
tru why is shame in there?

Yeah, shame is such a weird
I was also thinking that.

There are cultures where shame is
thought of as a positive, like a virtue.

Yeah, it's like restraint, or whatever.

I see, okay.

Gone from the earth and
only found in heaven.

None of these things
are available on earth.

Yeah, or yeah real humans don't
really exhibit that all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah, but you can find
them in heaven or whatever.

It's heaven.

Yeah, weird translation.

I wonder what that means to him.

Yeah.

Okay.

I do think, okay, my favorite part of
this actually is something that he says

at the end, which I always wonder about.

But he says, In his list of how we
should behave during our temporary

time here, be tolerant with others
and strict with yourself is lovely for

him, actually, because I always have
this thing where he's giving all this

advice and it's really unclear to me
whether or not he wants to apply the

same standards to himself as to others.

And this is the first time he's made
that really explicit that he does

hold different standards for others.

Yeah, and I think it makes sense that he
knows that this philosophy works because.

Only if you hold yourself to the standard.

It's not his job to hold other people
to the same standard or whatever.

But I really like hearing him
be very explicit about this is

a code for me and not what I'm
like as a boss or whatever else.

That's true.

That, that, that.

Treat human beings as they deserve.

Which is nice, but also kind Everything
has a layer of condescension.

There's a pleasant ambiguity
in there, yeah, where what do

you think they deserve, Marcus?

But I think he's being
nice at the end here.

Nothing belongs to you
but your flesh and blood.

I like that.

Yeah.

Nothing else is under your control.

It's a classic.

Yeah, this is the whole thing boiled down.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, number 34.

You can lead an untroubled
life provided you can grow, can

think, and act systematically.

Two characteristics shared by gods
and men and every rational creature.

One, not to let others hold you back.

Number two, to locate goodness in
thinking and doing the right thing,

and to limit your desires to that.

Whoa, cool.

Wow, these are not the things
I was expecting you to say.

To not let others hold you back.

Yes, to not let others hold you back.

Somebody is really stuck
in Marcus's craw right now.

I wonder who it is.

Yes, so one thing that all gods
and men and rational beings can do

is not let others hold them back.

Can I just say, I love how he interrupts
himself with every rational creature.

I love that.

So what is he talking about donkeys?

Do you think he thinks
of them as rational?

Who else would this be?

Yeah.

Oh, women!

Women!

Do they count?

Men is ambiguous in the translation too.

Sometimes men in the archaic
sense would include both sexes.

Maybe he means women.

Slaves?

Did they have other The minotaur,
the The men, God's men and mini

ares, or other semi heroes, whatever.

Semi human rational.

Oh man.

I hope he means animals.

Rational, but maybe yeah.

Or yeah.

Or he means women.

I maybe, yeah, there's lots of
offensive things he might mean.

Okay.

So to be so with bullet point number
one, I guess I interpreted it as

not to let others hold you back.

In the sense of he's got this thing where
you can always live according to your own

truth, even if you're a slave or whatever.

I think he means hold you back from living
in accordance with your own spirit and

nature and that kind of thing, as opposed
to the more literal Yeah, Think that

doesn't really make sense where like that.

Yeah, there are slaves on this time.

So some people are getting
held back by other people.

Yeah.

And then to locate goodness in thinking
and doing the right thing is nice.

Then to locate goodness.

Yes.

Locate goodness.

Yes.

To, yeah.

That's an interesting
use of the word locate.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think it
means defined basically.

Goodness.

So like in thinking the concept of
thinking, I, so I had parsed it that

way at first, and now I'm changing
the way I'm parting the sentence.

I think it's actually thinking and
doing the right thing are two different.

There's like thinking the right thing
and there's doing the right thing.

Yeah.

And he's saying that, oh, I see.

You can locate goodness in both of those.

. and then that, and that's
all you should want.

If you can think the right
things and do the right things.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah I would expect
these two to be flipped.

I would expect the first to be It's weird.

Do the right thing.

Totally.

And the second one is, don't
let other people hold you back.

Stop you.

Yes.

I agree.

That feels like it's not how I
would write this bullet list.

It's a classic Marcus to start with.

To start with, yeah.

He's bad.

Yeah, it's hurry!

I love that line.

Hurry!

Hurry to what?

We haven't really explained
what we're trying to do.

Yes, but he'll explain later.

Whatever it is, don't let other
people hold you back from it.

Yes.

Okay.

Okay, 35.

If, bullet point, This evil is
not of my doing, bullet, nor

the result of it, bullet, and
the community is not endangered.

Why should it bother me?

Now we're out of the list.

Where's the danger for the community?

Why is this a list?

I don't know why this is a
bullet in a list, but, he's

just scratching in a journal.

Sometimes it's He's like listing
properties of this evil, alright I

don't know, my, my annoying brain
is immediately countering this.

Okay massive hurricane.

It's not of your doing,
not a result of it.

The community is in danger by the way.

The community is in danger.

Yes.

And then he asks, where's
the danger for the community?

It's gonna wipe out the community.

I think he's, but this, massive
hurricane is not, this would not apply.

Oh, why?

Because the community, oh,
if the community is third

one of the conditions Yes.

Then he could.

Yes.

The first it won't.

If the community is not a major, then
what's the danger to the community?

. I agree.

Yes.

It doesn't make any sense, but I
think I should make lists like this.

. Yes.

That are just tonn logical.

Yeah.

I okay.

So let's meet him halfway here.

Okay.

I think he's just emphasizing
that's the thing to care about.

Yeah.

He's just saying it over and
over again, basically like.

. Okay.

So what's the there's no such
thing as personal harm for him.

What's the thing he's thinking about?

Tom?

Gimme the actual thing that,
yeah, that's a good question.

, historically, what would this have been?

Oh, maybe it's something like
maybe the after my collapse or

my my, my reign as emperor ends,
like my son won't be the best.

I'm worried that my son might
not be the best emperor, right?

But then the community would be endangered
by not having a good emperor, right?

I think it's more like internal
squabbling or something, someone

betrayed someone else, or whatever.

I see.

And I didn't do it, and I, and
the community's not endangered.

And it's just these two idiots who
are, At each other's throats, if

it's not, if it's not a problem,
it's not a problem, alright.

I was hoping it'd be more
profound than that, but okay.

Yeah maybe you're right, but I do
just worry that this caveat of the

community cannot we had one earlier
where he was like, basically, you

can do lots of damage to me and the
community is completely unharmed.

It doesn't really stand for me because
we have this concept now that the

individual is comprising the community.

When they're harmed,
the community is harmed.

But he's got this interesting,
he can divorce those things.

He has the whole and thing going on.

Yeah, the individuals are damaged, but
the community is undamaged somehow.

Okay, thanks Marcus.

Thanks for the if then statement.

36.

Not to be overwhelmed by what you imagine,
but just do what you can and should.

Easy.

And if.

And here we have something I think
that's been omitted from the translation.

It's like a little bracket ellipsis thing.

And if, something, suffer in
inessentials, not to treat that as

a defeat, parentheses, bad habit.

Like the old man asking for the
orphan's toy on the way out, even

though he knew that's all it was.

Like that.

What?

This is gold.

The old.

Okay.

Even though he, the old man asking
for the orphan's toy, is this like

a, some sort of aphorism we're
supposed to be familiar with?

Oh my God, I love it.

. I hope we can figure out what this means.

Okay.

So old man Okay.

Sees this orphan's toy.

Yeah.

On the way out.

So he's leaving the orphanage or he
sees the little toy train, you think?

You think literally on the way out?

Yeah.

Okay.

As opposed to he's about
to die or something.

I don't know.

Okay.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

I think you're right.

Even though he knew that's,
was, knew, that's all it was.

It was it, which is a toy, okay.

Know it's just a toy.

It's not a real train.

I know this is not a real train.

I, yes.

I would like that.

Even though, despite my understanding
that it is a fake train . So the

old man steals the doorman's toy.

Even though he knows it's
just a toy because he has been

overwhelmed by what he imagines.

wait.

Isn't that what we're understanding?

I don't get it, right?

Yeah.

He imagines that the toy was.

No, he knew.

We know he knew.

oh.

Oh, so then he's in the good side.

But just do what you can and should.

So he should take the orphan's toy.

And he can take the orphan's toy.

No, wait a minute.

No, we're losing the thread here.

If, okay, I think it might
actually be the, he's talking

about the second sentence.

About.

And if blank, suffer in inessentials
not to treat that as a defeat.

Okay.

I wish we knew what the, I don't.

I wish we had the word.

I'm having a, I'm having a, yeah,
I mean I wonder if they literally

couldn't read it or something.

Suffer in inessentials?

Yeah, that's what, that
seems like the key phrase.

What I think that means like,
you're, hey orphan, you don't

need that toy, you'll be fine.

Let's try to understand without
the old man and the orphan's toy,

because I don't feel like we're
parsing that part correctly.

But maybe, so like one Okay,
here, let me try to imagine.

Marcus is doing his best for his empire.

Okay.

And he has a lot of
hard decisions to make.

And he can imagine all sorts of bad stuff
that might befall his empire in his time.

And he's saying, hey, Do what you can.

Do what you can.

Don't get overwhelmed by every possible
thing that might go wrong for the Empire.

Bad habit.

Yeah, one thing, one foot in front
of the other, do the right thing.

And if your people suffer Indian
essentials, which is to say, they

don't, they don't get as much
wine, they don't get as much party.

They like, they don't get the
things that they don't really need.

Don't treat that as a defeat.

Because you're still serving them.

In their, in the most
needed, necessary way.

And it's a bad habit to, you're being
too much of a perfectionist, Marcus,

by saying, Oh, the people didn't
get every single thing they wanted.

Good job, Tom.

That's my guess.

But, I do not understand the old
man and the orphan's toy at all.

So we are supposed to be the orphan, Tom.

It's our toy that the old man
took, and it's an inessential.

And we shouldn't suffer the inessential.

Who's Marcus in this analogy then?

The orphan.

Marcus is the orphan.

Okay.

Is there any other?

I have no idea.

Okay, maybe we're the old man.

That's what I, initially I
parsed it as we're the old man.

Maybe we love the orphan?

What if we really like the orphan and
we're taking the toy to remember him?

Even though we.

Okay, what about this?

He's not actually, we don't
actually get that he's taking the

toy, he's just asking for the toy.

Okay, so he just wants to
play with it and give it back?

Or he's I think he's actually
playing with the orphan.

He's saying, oh orphan,
oh your train is so cool.

Oh, that's so good, Tom.

Let me, can I play with it?

I see, you're asking is the wrong word.

Yeah, that's my guess.

Even though he knows that's
all it is, I'm not your father.

I can't be, I can't fill that void for
you, but I'll play with you this one time.

Oh, that's interesting.

That's a very kind thing to do.

Yeah, totally.

Yes, and he's doing what the orphan
needs most, even though it's not

everything the orphan really wants.

He's doing what he can and should.

Yeah.

Lovely.

Okay.

I think that is Oh, that's so nice, Tom.

We're really giving Marcus , we're
really doing backflips for this guy.

I am as proud of our translation of that
as anything we've done on this podcast.

That was that.

I, we, oh my God.

I'm impressed by what we just
did to make sense of that.

'cause I really did not understand that.

Like that Tom

Okay.

Yes.

Alright.

Yeah.

You're welcome, Marcus.

All right.

36A.

Thank you, Marcus.

36A.

That one was 36A.

This is 36A.

This is related.

And this one has those little
dagger y things for some reason.

I have no idea why.

Up on the platform is denoted is
enclosed in dagger things on either side.

Yep, makes sense.

Have you forgotten what's what?

And then a response, I know,
but it was important to them.

And so you have to be an idiot as well?

What?

Okay.

Up on the platform.

I think I need to understand that first.

Maybe that's something like
he's Like a pedestal, a podium.

Yeah, or he's like literally
speaking to a crowd.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Have you forgotten what's what?

And so this is somebody
who's interrogating him

while he's up on the podium.

He's like, why did you make
a stupid decision, Marcus?

I don't know.

And he's I know, but it
was important to them.

So I think this is in conversation.

There's a reason that this is A.

It's an example of what
he's talking about.

He's he's made some poor decision for the
Empire, but it's because I really wanted

to bring the carnival to town or whatever.

I just wanted to play with the orphan.

It was important to the people that I
do this thing, so I made a bad call.

And so you have to be an idiot as well.

And so yes, the interrogator
is those dipshits who wanted

that thing were stupid.

And what you've done is also be stupid.

Man, I wish, it would be such
a rich book if he just, Hinted

at what he's talking about.

What he's talking about, yes.

But that's not the game.

The game is That's not what we're doing.

The game is figure it out.

But I think that one I
feel pretty good about.

I have absolutely no idea.

I guess the daggers just
mean stage direction.

I'm setting the scene here.

Okay.

Alright.

The last entry in Book 5.

Let's do it.

37.

I was once a fortunate man.

But at some point fortune abandoned me.

But true good fortune is
what you make for yourself.

Good fortune, good character,
good intentions, and good actions.

Pretty cool.

Yeah.

I'm The first sentence
is something new for us.

Yeah.

I was fortunate and now I'm not.

A bunch of terrible things
happened in his life.

Yeah, okay, so I think, insert
one of those terrible things.

Yeah.

Children dying, mutiny in the ranks.

Yeah.

Empire in close on all sides, by the way.

Empire in close on all sides.

A sense of this is the end.

Yeah.

Of.

Roman life as we know it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Wow.

What a pretty epic way to, yeah.

Really epic is the right word, actually.

Inspiring too.

Yeah.

Okay.

Good fortune.

Fortune has abandoned you.

Yeah.

Who cares?

Make your own do it.

Yeah.

Awesome.

It's like a, it's like
a speech in a movie.

Yeah.

Totally.

Make it yourself.

It wouldn't be Marcus Aurelius if you
didn't give a good ol list at the end.

Yes.

Such a pointless list.

Good fortune, good character,
good intentions, good actions.

It does that is how he
thinks about the world.

There's like the contents of
your spirit, what you think

about, and that's all there is.

Yeah.

Nice.

Okay.

Book five.

Yeah.

Hey I enjoyed book five.

I liked book five.

Yeah.

I think, he's still all over the
place at times, but I think we're

still finding, or I feel like
I'm still finding new stuff here.

He's not just repeating himself.

Yeah.

I agree.

There's new stuff in here for sure.

Yeah.

I cannot believe we're only halfway.

I know.

I think we're not even quite halfway.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

He had a long, a lot of time.

I guess he had a long life.

To write this stuff and I guess I think
the thing that I also enjoy about it is

even if some of the stuff is repetitive
we find, we change as we read this book.

So that, that is I think what
recommends this book to this

kind of reading, I think.

On the next episode we begin book six.

Hell yeah.

We're going to find something
to put up on our apartment.

Yes.

By the end of this we're going to know.

Yes.

What wall decoration.

Is in store for us.

So stay tuned.

Bye bye!

Bye.

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