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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
194. Chris Legg
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[00:00:00] Chris Legg: I say a phrase so often that somebody made it into a T-shirt at the church phrase I ask is, have you met you? I think humans are amazing. I think there's bottomless depths to what we can learn about each other and ourselves, and I also think we're honestly just pretty awful. I mean, [00:00:15] if you've ever studied history at all, you see the examples and we're not getting better.
[00:00:19] Chris Legg: It's not like we're suddenly not doing horrible things to each other all the time. Even our best moments are tainted. Am I getting up on Sunday morning to preach because I think it's the right thing to do. Sure. Is [00:00:30] it what God's called me to do? Yes. Do I also really love people looking at me with adoring eyes and telling you how amazing I am also?
[00:00:37] Chris Legg: Yes. The truth is everything we have is tainted a little bit by emperor motives. It's just amazing to me that anyone would think [00:00:45] self-esteem has any power at all. I feel like if my esteem is built purely on me, well then I need to be really honest. With the fact that though there are some amazing things, there's also some pretty horrible things.
[00:00:56] Chris Legg: I don't see how anybody in a healthy way, a non [00:01:00] delusional way, build their identity on themselves. You must be some kind of therapist
[00:01:09] Stephanie Winn: today. I have the honor of speaking with Chris Legg. He is a pastor as well as a licensed [00:01:15] professional counselor, or as he said it earlier, a bit of a unicorn. He is the lead pastor at South Spring Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas, and the founding owner and clinical director of Olathe Family Counseling Center.
[00:01:29] Stephanie Winn: Uh, Chris Legg, [00:01:30] welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.
[00:01:32] Chris Legg: I am excited to be here. Thank you.
[00:01:34] Stephanie Winn: So it's, it's been interesting wading into conversations about faith on this podcast. After 180 episodes, I was always very private about my spirituality until [00:01:45] that moment where I actually became a Christian.
[00:01:47] Stephanie Winn: It sort of a slow then all at once process and then, and, and then suddenly it feels like the rules of the game changed. And I, I am now speaking about faith and it's, I, I'm in this role of [00:02:00] being on the one hand seen as an expert in my, my field of expertise, but also sort of a baby waiting into conversations about faith.
[00:02:06] Stephanie Winn: And yet, um, I've been blessed with, you know, people like you coming forward at just the right time saying, Hey, wanna, wanna have a conversation. And so, [00:02:15] um, really glad that you are here as someone at the intersection. Of faith and the counseling profession and as, as, as someone personally from the west coast, the, the way you do life over there in Texas feels like a different country sometimes.
[00:02:29] Stephanie Winn: [00:02:30] Like just the idea that you can be both a licensed professional counselor who, who runs a counseling practice and a pastor, uh, that feels very much like something we would never do on the west coast. Um, but, but I mean, [00:02:45] Texas is, uh, it's a lot more densely populated with Christians. Would you say?
[00:02:51] Chris Legg: I would go so far as to say where I am in Tyler, Texas is the little diamond on the cowboy, on the buckle of the [00:03:00] Bible belt.
[00:03:00] Chris Legg: That's, that's probably where I am right here. Like it is. This is, this is probably the, will be the last bastion of. As we become a post-Christian nation, Tyler will be the last to fall probably. So anyway, that's a, [00:03:15] yeah. So, so the answer to your question, yes. If I throw a rock in almost any direction, I'm gonna hit a church.
[00:03:20] Chris Legg: Um, okay. Some
[00:03:21] Stephanie Winn: way
[00:03:22] Chris Legg: they're all around.
[00:03:23] Stephanie Winn: So tell us about that combination of being both a pastor and a licensed professional counselor. [00:03:30]
[00:03:30] Chris Legg: Well, it happened in the order of, uh, when I was a teenager hearing, there was a radio talk show every night by a guy named James Dobson, um, who ran a ministry called Focus on the Family out of California, in fact.
[00:03:43] Chris Legg: And he, um, [00:03:45] uh, I would listen to his radio podcast. I was intrigued as a young person that this total stranger to me seemed to understand me better than my parents understood me, but some of us better than understood myself. And so I was fascinated by this. And so the field of [00:04:00] psychology and. Um, even into like psychiatry and the other fields.
[00:04:05] Chris Legg: Those became really interesting to me very early. And so following kind of that path, starting with my master's in counseling, I mean, starting my master's in psychology, [00:04:15] um, I realized after one semester that they were training me more how to study people and not so much how to help people directly. I'm not, I don't mean to put an inappropriate dichotomy there.
[00:04:26] Chris Legg: I know that both are both, but, um, it seemed like that's more they were [00:04:30] preparing me to do. And so when I asked about that, they said, well, what about, what if you went into counseling instead? And I, I honestly at that time did not even know that that was, uh, a field I could shift into like that. And so I did.
[00:04:43] Chris Legg: And the best [00:04:45] program in my area was actually at a seminary. And not just the best program for Christians, but the best program probably period. Um, at the time. Uh, and so that's where I went and learned how to become a counselor, and then started doing counseling and developed a [00:05:00] private practice. Um, and then over time as I moved to Tyler, was seeing just a few clients a week while doing another job at a ministry here, pine Cove Christian Camps, and, uh, as a chaplain, as a basically their on staff counselor.
[00:05:14] Chris Legg: And [00:05:15] then, uh, and then when I left there and started doing private practice full-time, built up a lathea and then a church called and said, would you come do some consulting with us and help us understand ourselves better? And our staff, I did that and a few [00:05:30] months later they came back and said, would you be willing to apply to be on staff as one of our pastors?
[00:05:35] Chris Legg: Uh, and the fact that I, the fact that I'm church staff, that I'm a lead pastor of a church probably is indication of God's sense of humor, uh, if nothing else. [00:05:45] And so, but that was one of my, the ideas was I said, I, I'm not, Tyler has lots of pastors and not many. Good counselors, um, at the time. And so I said, I feel like I need to keep this practice open and do this work.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Chris Legg: If you're okay with that, then I will come start talking with you at the church. And now we have a, Lathea has six locations around t around Texas. Um, 30 ish therapists spread out in those areas. And, [00:06:15] um, it's been just a huge blessing. And I'm here about, I'm only here about a day and a half a week doing training and then, uh, and then seeing a handful of clients every week.
[00:06:24] Chris Legg: And then the rest of the week I'm at the church now, the lead pastor, when we got planted as an independent church, I became the lead pastor. So this was [00:06:30] a, again, a convoluted path to get here. Um, but I've always been kind of a believer. I was raised by scientists and so I was always kind of on the opinion that all truth is God's truth there.
[00:06:43] Chris Legg: And so, um, if [00:06:45] it's true, it's true. If Sigmund Freud uncovers it, and it's true, it's still true. Even if someone like Freud is the one who discovered it. Um, so it's true. If it's true, it's true. And so that's, to me was valuable. And, and so I've never had a, I've never seen an inherent conflict between [00:07:00] the study of the psyche, which is just the Greek word for soul, um, or the study of, uh, you know, the study of theology, the study of who God is and who that means we are.
[00:07:11] Chris Legg: And so, and those seem to integrate real nicely, and it [00:07:15] has, it's been a huge great partnership here, um, in our community. So, so far so good. At least.
[00:07:21] Stephanie Winn: How do you see the similarity and differences between your roles as a counselor and a pastor?
[00:07:27] Chris Legg: Well, gosh, I mean, the main differences have to do with [00:07:30] the ethical guidelines of having an LPC board.
[00:07:33] Chris Legg: And so, um, somebody comes to talk to me at the church, you know, they don't, they don't have the protections of, of that kind of stuff. And so, uh, and, and so I always tell them upfront like, I [00:07:45] can't promise perfect confidentiality as you coming in to speak to your pastor about something. I mean, that's.
[00:07:51] Chris Legg: There's a lot of other issues here that might come into play. If you, if you were talking to me at a lathea, that would be different. But, but also to keep in mind, like, [00:08:00] I have to be careful with, uh, non-therapeutic relationships that if, if I'm someone's pastor, when is it appropriate for me to also be their counselor?
[00:08:09] Chris Legg: And when, isn't it? And that's part of why I have so many therapists is I send them to other therapists, um, usually other [00:08:15] than myself. And so just protecting those non-therapeutic relationships, those are really the complications to be honest, is, is really has more to do with that. But in a smallish town like Tyler, anyway, I mean, but my clients are gonna [00:08:30] end up, their kids are gonna be on the same basketball team with my kids and we're gonna be co-coaching with the basketball league, or we're gonna be, they're gonna be, you know, they're the, the only doctor in town in a certain way is also one of my clients.
[00:08:43] Chris Legg: And so I'm going to this [00:08:45] doctor. To do this medical work with me because they're the only one in town or the only one who's any good. And so that's gonna happen. That's, it's just a challenge for sure.
[00:08:55] Stephanie Winn: That's a, that was a really small town.
[00:08:57] Chris Legg: It's messy. Yeah, it's pretty, I mean, Tyler's about a [00:09:00] hundred thousand people, so it's not tiny, but it's still, um, it's still small enough that, that it has that feel.
[00:09:07] Chris Legg: You bump into people all over the place.
[00:09:10] Stephanie Winn: I actually think that's kind of the perfect size for a town, just having, having been to a [00:09:15] few different places. Yeah. I, I like that a hundred thousand person sized town. So are there people who seek you out, seek for a, a counseling relationship because of your ministry?
[00:09:29] Stephanie Winn: And, [00:09:30] and how do you, when someone approaches you for counseling and they know you as their pastor, how do you sort of figure out if that's gonna be the right relationship for you?
[00:09:42] Chris Legg: Honestly, it's just an open conversation. So in some [00:09:45] cases it's clear to me immediately, you know, if they're a member of my leadership board or something like that, well then no, that's not appropriate for me to be their counselor.
[00:09:54] Chris Legg: Um, if, if they're just a member, I mean, the, the church has, you know, we typically have between [00:10:00] 1,012 hundred people present on Sunday mornings, and so there's a good chance they could be a member of the church and I don't know them at all. And so that, that might work. Um, even then I try to generally gently send them to somebody else.
[00:10:13] Chris Legg: But there are times that it seems [00:10:15] appropriate, uh, that's just an open conversation from day one. Listen, if, if this ever seems like an issue, we need to solve this and be prepared to solve it if it ever seems like that. What you'll think is, what you may think is really interesting is actually, I've had several people come to [00:10:30] me because I was a pastor as well as a counselor who were not Christians.
[00:10:37] Chris Legg: Who wanted to have those conversations with a Christian. Interesting. They wanted to have these conversations. It's, it's been intriguing over the years to have [00:10:45] several people come to me for counseling who were not believers knowing that I was, it's not like it's sneaky that I'm, uh, and our counseling center is not a Christian counseling center.
[00:10:55] Chris Legg: It, it's a, um, it's just a counseling center, a family counseling center. [00:11:00] Um, it is typically we are all people who found fundamental views are, are in alignment with the Christian worldview and with, have a correct understanding of grace. But, um, but we have, I mean, probably a third to half our clients [00:11:15] are not, would not make any claim on Christianity at all.
[00:11:18] Chris Legg: Um, but we're all trained licensed professionals and so. Um, so actually it's been the opposite at times. Sometimes it is, I'm coming to you because you're a pastor and I'm dealing with these issues or these fears or these [00:11:30] anxieties, and sometimes it's, I'm coming to you because I know you're a pastor and I am not that.
[00:11:35] Chris Legg: And sometimes it's because they've experienced bad church hurt or trauma through the Christian world in a Christian setting. That's super common. And I can sometimes [00:11:45] represent a person for them to engage with, to talk through those things with as kind of a weird representative of, again, like we said, both worlds.
[00:11:54] Stephanie Winn: Well, it sort of reminds me of the father wound. You know, before we start a recording, I told you that [00:12:00] as a, as a fatherless girl myself, that I need to be protective of my heart as I grapple with God the father, because it's easy to get it wrong, right? It's easy to, um. [00:12:15] Project, my fear of persecution, my fear of judgment, all these things when really what I need to be doing is basking in the glow of his generosity as someone who was deprived of that in, in childhood.
[00:12:24] Stephanie Winn: And, you know, for similar reasons. That's why I might [00:12:30] choose a, a male counselor, for example, so that I can work through those father wounds. And I can imagine something similar if someone has those religious wounds, which often overlap with father wounds, whether it's it's father abandonment or fathers abusing their power.
[00:12:43] Chris Legg: For sure. I, [00:12:45] I'm a firm believer that our, I mean, my experience at least is that our intuition of God, our childhood intuition of God is our father, is our earthly father. And so, um, something that may help you as you [00:13:00] wrestle with that is to remember that at least I believe it isn't that humans are sitting around going, how can we understand God?
[00:13:08] Chris Legg: Well, we've got this concept called Father, maybe he's kind of like that. The correct understanding [00:13:15] is there is a cosmic concept called father, and it is God. And, and his that is, he's the only exemplar of that. Human men are either good or bad ex [00:13:30] at exemplifying the paternal traits of God to the degree they're good at it, they're good fathers and the degree they're bad at it, they're bad fathers.
[00:13:38] Chris Legg: And so the job of a dad, I've got five kids and I don't know how many hundreds of [00:13:45] spiritual children, um, over the years. But that to say my goal as a dad is that when my kids wake up to the fact that, oh, he's not God, he's just dad, that's God, is that they don't have to pivot 180 [00:14:00] degrees to just go from one to the other.
[00:14:02] Chris Legg: And when you've been abandoned, you go, okay. Godfather. Intuition is not safe, not trustworthy, not there, not whatever, or this weird fantasy version of it that [00:14:15] by weird, I mean typical that we go, my father's out there somewhere and he must be amazing, or he must be awesome and he must be whatever. And then all the fantasies that children create.
[00:14:25] Chris Legg: And then to be able to pivot and go, okay, I'm gonna turn 180 degrees in order to [00:14:30] see that the true definer of father is God. And my dad was a poor example of that. Um, or, and all of us are poorer example to one degree or another. And we also all need dozens. I don't know how many [00:14:45] hundreds of paternal figures in our lives in order to color in the paint by numbers that God as the exemplar our father is.
[00:14:54] Chris Legg: And so we need that. But our intuition may always be this default, [00:15:00] whatever we were raised with or failed to be raised with as dad. It we'll have this childhood intuition to default towards that. Um, when it comes to God as father, and by the way, I think the same thing is true of mother God is the exemplar of mother as [00:15:15] well.
[00:15:15] Chris Legg: God being the Father presented in scripture doesn't mean he has male plumbing. It's has to do with just, just the traits and the way that's introduced. But, but is like, uh, the mater, the maternal traits of God. [00:15:30] The job of a mother is to exemplify God's maternal traits. Well, and the degree to which you do that, you're a good or bad mother.
[00:15:37] Chris Legg: And so you've probably been a maternal figure, especially as a counselor. You almost unavoidably have been a maternal figure to many, [00:15:45] many people and have hopefully exemplified the, the maternal traits of God. Well, and they've gotten to experience a good mother, not fully. There's certain colors you're not allowed to color in as a therapist or as a counselor.
[00:15:57] Chris Legg: Um, but there's so many good. Aspects of [00:16:00] that. Anyway, so yeah, that's a wrestling, that's gonna be a fascinating paint, uh, artwork for you to be coloring in what it means to have a father
[00:16:10] Speaker 3: Hmm.
[00:16:10] Chris Legg: Who sees you as a gift, who's crazy about you and who you know. [00:16:15] We'll go to any lengths. Um, okay, I've gotta tell you.
[00:16:19] Chris Legg: Okay, we've gotta do this real quick. The, um, the, uh, I use a video from the Antiques Roadshow, um, sometime you can look it up. [00:16:30] It's the, it's an Antiques Roadshow video on YouTube that is a Ute U-T-E-A-U chief wearing blanket video from several years ago. A what a ute. It's an, it's a, a Native American wearing blanket.
[00:16:42] Stephanie Winn: Okay. Um,
[00:16:43] Chris Legg: and so somebody, you searched [00:16:45] that ute, it's UTE is how it's spelled, but, and it's an older guy named Ted who finds out that this blanket that he's brought in that's been laying over the back of his chair. He is actually a national treasure. It's a wearing blanket from a couple hundred years [00:17:00] ago.
[00:17:00] Chris Legg: And it's worth, you know, at the time it was worth about half a million dollars. I think it actually sold for $1.8 million, um, this blanket that this guy had just had laying on the back of his chair. And I asked clients, so how [00:17:15] valuable was that blanket laying over the back of the chair all those years?
[00:17:18] Chris Legg: And their instinct is to say, well, it wasn't valuable. And I say, so you think the value of the blanket changed on the day of the Antiques roadshow? Well, no. The value of the blanket didn't [00:17:30] change. The ignorance of the owner changed. And so there's this really cool parable in the Bible that Jesus tells about a treasure hidden in a field.
[00:17:38] Chris Legg: And so I think one of the things that's intriguing is that when we were treated as less than treasure, [00:17:45] and God I think, identifies us as his treasure in that parable. And so when we grew up being treated as something less than treasure. We have to re realize is there was never anything wrong with the treasure.
[00:17:57] Chris Legg: The treasure wasn't the problem. [00:18:00] The treasure was treasure. The problem was the owner didn't know they had treasure either their own ignorance or defiance or whatever's going on. That's, they were the pro. The problem wasn't the blanket laying over the back of the chair. It was the original owner, [00:18:15] Ted, who didn't know it was a treasure.
[00:18:17] Chris Legg: And so he didn't treat it like treasure because he didn't know it was treasure. Whereas God not only is a treasure hunter, but he is, he teaches us to be treasure hunters as well. Um, that we can see treasure where other [00:18:30] people can't. So, and that's how God sees you and sees me is as treasure. And he, with joy, purchased the field because he knew it was treasure.
[00:18:42] Stephanie Winn: Hmm. I like that. [00:18:45] That's good picture. I, I wanna, I wanna bring up, um, a Bible verse that really struck me the other day. Mm-hmm. So it's in Luke 11
[00:18:54] Speaker 3: mm-hmm.
[00:18:55] Stephanie Winn: Um, where Jesus basically tells his disciples, look, [00:19:00] here's how you pray, you bang on God's door really loudly.
[00:19:04] Chris Legg: Yeah.
[00:19:05] Stephanie Winn: I mean, I'm misquoting it on purpose to be hyperbolic, but it's not that far off.
[00:19:10] Stephanie Winn: Right. So, so, um, for for listeners who, who aren't familiar, I'll, I'll [00:19:15] give my lay layperson's understanding and then you can give your professional understanding. But what I took from it is Jesus says, you know, okay, first of all, here's how you pray. And then he does part of the, you know, our father who are in Heaven Hall, [00:19:30] be thy name and so on.
[00:19:31] Stephanie Winn: And then he goes into, if you, uh, went to your friend's house in the middle of the night. And shouted at him, Hey, I have a visitor and I need to feed him something and I don't have any bread. Well, you give me some bread. Your friend would be like, go away. My [00:19:45] kids are in bed, we're sleeping. Leave us alone.
[00:19:47] Stephanie Winn: But if you were persistent enough, your friend would get out of bed and help you. Not because you're his friend, but because you were so obnoxious.
[00:19:55] Chris Legg: Right.
[00:19:56] Stephanie Winn: This is what Jesus says. And so he's like, so that's how you should pray. [00:20:00] Yes. And I'm going, uh, I, I like, I was really like, okay, so God wants me to be obnoxious.
[00:20:06] Stephanie Winn: Like, Hey, you're not answering my prayers. Bang louder on the door, bug him until he gets outta bed. I mean, so I [00:20:15] wanna know as a pastor what you think about that verse.
[00:20:19] Chris Legg: Okay. So I'm going to take you that. I think that's really cool. And here's what I, so here's what I love. So I'm gonna take you also to one of other Luke's stories.
[00:20:27] Chris Legg: Okay. Jesus, the parable Jesus tells in Luke, which [00:20:30] is in Luke 18, which is the parable. If, if anything, this is even worse. It's the parable of the persistent widow. So you have a widow who, there's a judge who does not fear anyone. He's a total narcissist. There's [00:20:45] no God higher than him. And a widow comes to him asking for justice, and he just keeps ignoring her.
[00:20:50] Chris Legg: And she keeps coming and keeps coming and keeps coming. And in Luke, uh, 18, um, [00:21:00] he said, Luke 18, verse four, for a while, for a while he refused. But afterwards he said to himself, though, I neither fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.
[00:21:14] Chris Legg: So one, I [00:21:15] think it's fascinating that God would say, yeah, if you're not getting what you want from me yet, keep, keep hounding me. Right? Which is wild. But here's the verse that I think helps us understand this, okay? Verse six, both of these stories, verse six, Jesus said, [00:21:30] hear what the unrighteous judge says and will not God.
[00:21:33] Chris Legg: Give justice to his elect who cry to him both day and night. Will he delay along over them? Um, I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. So this idea [00:21:45] is Jesus is not just equating, Hey, continue to bug him, although he's certainly inviting us to do that. He's also saying, since this is a God who loves to give his children good gifts, as [00:22:00] we see in other places that exact phrase, since we know he loves to give good gifts, how much more will he hear the prayers of his children than a judge who doesn't love people than a neighbor who's already comfortable?
[00:22:14] Chris Legg: Mm-hmm. [00:22:15] And so if even they will do something kind for you, well now imagine how much more a God who loves you, what he will do for you. And so this is the. In Hebrews, in the book of Hebrews, when it says to that we should enter boldly into his throne [00:22:30] room of grace. Um, just because we are this, we have this, again, the intuition may stumble here, but that we have this child role in his life
[00:22:40] Stephanie Winn: and the prodigal son's older brother, the lesson for him the whole time was no, this, this was all yours [00:22:45] the whole time.
[00:22:46] Chris Legg: It's a yes. Yes. I love that. I love the, we think that story's about the prodigal, but I think it's really about the older son more than anything else. I think, um, although it applies certainly to the prodigal, the older son seems to be the one with the [00:23:00] main lesson at the end, doesn't he? It's, it's so good.
[00:23:04] Stephanie Winn: Well, and it's like the, the same theme in the one about, um, the workers who labor all day get paid the same as the ones who showed up at the last hour. Mm-hmm. Um, and [00:23:15] this idea of good gifts, you know, I'm, I'm trying to relate things to my own life to understand. God in from different angles and yeah, like the other day, my husband and I were having a difficult conversation about, um, [00:23:30] child rearing.
[00:23:32] Stephanie Winn: Yes. And um.
[00:23:34] Chris Legg: We have those.
[00:23:35] Stephanie Winn: And, and so I, I found myself, so first I was like complaining and venting about certain qualities that annoy me and my stepson.
[00:23:44] Speaker 3: [00:23:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:45] Stephanie Winn: And then I don't know what happened. But then we were talking about gifts,
[00:23:51] Chris Legg: right?
[00:23:52] Stephanie Winn: And I was like, I actually really wanna get him this thing. And he doesn't know, like, he doesn't know that this thing exists, but it's totally him.
[00:23:57] Stephanie Winn: And I really wanna give him a gift that like suits his [00:24:00] nature. And I was, you know, and, and my husband was like, see, this is why I love you because like we were just talking about how annoying they are, but still, here you are like wanting to give them good gifts. And I was like, okay, yeah, that checks out.
[00:24:13] Stephanie Winn: And so I was like, okay. And I keep hearing [00:24:15] this thing about how God wants to give us good gifts. I'm like, maybe I'm as annoying to God as my stepson is to me. But he still wants to give
[00:24:22] Chris Legg: good gifts. You know? We are, I mean, we have to be, this is a, um. I mean, we, we are his big helpers, [00:24:30] right? I mean, if you, if you, anybody out there has ever had a four-year-old and they've sent them to go clean their room, I mean, you're not gonna get a clean room out of that.
[00:24:36] Chris Legg: He, everything he asks me to do, he knows it's gonna be done badly. I mean, that's because it's me doing it. I mean, it's, it's, he couldn't, why isn't he preaching on [00:24:45] Sunday morning? Why isn't he meeting with my clients one-on-one? Like, it's not because he couldn't do it better, it's because he's, he's giving me the opportunity to be involved in what he's doing, not because I'm so impressive with my performance.
[00:24:57] Chris Legg: Like, I just, I just think that's an [00:25:00] amazing picture for us to recognize. In fact, uh, you probably have clients who part of their hurt, father wound is this dismissal or, or, um, this such a negative response when a child tries to help. And sometimes dads can be really [00:25:15] impatient with that, that, you know, dad says, Hey, go get me a wrench.
[00:25:18] Chris Legg: And we go as a child and we come back with pliers. 'cause we don't know the difference between a wrench and pliers. And so some dads will be like, what are you stupid? I said, I said A wrench or I said pliers and, and, [00:25:30] and or the ones who just storm past us and with steam coming outta their ears and they go get it themselves and they communicate all this stuff.
[00:25:36] Chris Legg: Well, keep in mind when God sends us to go get pliers, he already knows we're coming back with a wrench. And so he already knew that. So he's, he's not like, what? [00:25:45] He's not throwing a big fit. Like you didn't clean your room. I told you to clean your room. Like Yeah. He knew when he sent us to clean that room.
[00:25:50] Chris Legg: He wasn't gonna get a clean room out of it. The things that have to be done right, he does himself creation and redemption and, and restoration. And, you know, these, these are things, [00:26:00] glorification. These are things that he only he can do. So he does them. The, the rest of it apparently doesn't have to be done right.
[00:26:06] Chris Legg: And that's what, what you're exemplifying perfect picture to your stepson is grace. He didn't earn this. He's annoying. Of course we're, I'm sure we're moring to God. [00:26:15] He must, I mean. He must be slapping his forehead, face palming. Exactly. His face palm. Big old bruise on God's face here. Like, oh, they are getting me.
[00:26:23] Chris Legg: But I, I think it is, I think it's really a beautiful aspect of, of that [00:26:30] relationship to us. If you've not read Manning's books, uh, ragamuffin Gospel, Abba's Child and Lion and Lamb, I'd highly recommend them. They're really, they're, they're on the edge, but they are really good [00:26:45] exploration of grace and the kind of radical, even offensive grace.
[00:26:51] Chris Legg: That is it one moment saying, oh my gosh, this kid, I was gonna, you know, I'm gonna pull my hair out. They're on my last nerve. [00:27:00] And, and I'm kind of laughing, Stephanie, because literally my wife and I this weekend had a conflict about parenting and in the middle of the conflict, we're having a talk about.
[00:27:08] Chris Legg: Also Christmas gifts for the kids. Like
[00:27:11] Speaker 3: yeah, this,
[00:27:12] Chris Legg: apparently we were having a mirrored life at that moment. Yeah. This [00:27:15] last weekend. So it's, that's, that's pretty hilarious. I'm right there with that. Huh. But yes, he loves to give us good gifts. Those aren't contradictory. That's Grace.
[00:27:21] Stephanie Winn: Just one other example, I mean, you mentioned my client work and I, I have, um, clients right now who have now asked [00:27:30] me multiple times to do something that is outside of how I normally work, but they're such lovely people and, and their's and their request is so.
[00:27:44] Stephanie Winn: Like, they've [00:27:45] actually sold me on it where I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna cave and say, okay, this isn't how I normally work. But since you guys were really persistent and since you're so lovely, I, I see your point. And so, um, you know, I, I try to have boundaries around my work and, and many of them [00:28:00] exist, the structures for good reason.
[00:28:01] Stephanie Winn: I, I do turn people down who ask me to work outside of some of those structures. But, um, I think just having these, these two things come up in the same week that I was really struck by that verse from Luke, I'm like, it just really changes my [00:28:15] relationship with prayer because I, I think my, some of my initial attempts at prayer were like pious and selfless.
[00:28:25] Stephanie Winn: Um. And, uh, you know, I'm worried about like getting it [00:28:30] right. And this is, I mean, I'm coming as someone who, the reality is that I've been a spiritual person for a lot longer than I've been a Christian per se. And, and there have been times in my life that I prayed for something important and it was given to me.
[00:28:44] Stephanie Winn: And I've been [00:28:45] thinking about those because one of them was, I prayed for career guidance and it put me on the path to become a counselor. And I finally got my head on straight enough to pray clearly and intentionally for my husband. And then I met him within a few months of that prayer. And with both [00:29:00] of these things, these are two really major things in my life that I prayed over and was, um, shown the way, the thing that was a, the thing or the person that was a match for me.
[00:29:10] Stephanie Winn: And so I've been thinking lately like, well, these two major things really [00:29:15] worked out. Like, why didn't I pray for more guidance if I could have avoided so much trouble in my life and like been, you know, if I like. And, and I, and, and that was given to me, not, not as a Christian, but just as someone who's like some [00:29:30] vague sense of God out there somewhere.
[00:29:32] Chris Legg: Well, keep in mind though, I think John one teaches us that only those who have been, who have put their faith in him are his children. They have, we have the opportunity to become his children because of the [00:29:45] work of Christ. We are all his treasure. And so even, even that's a nonbeliever is not less his treasure.
[00:29:52] Chris Legg: He still treasures. Even those who have not accepted him or who have defied him or denied him, that he doesn't change. That's, that's like [00:30:00] in a, a child that would abandon us. Well, that's gonna, that happens sometimes. And that doesn't mean they're less treasure to us. It just means the relationship isn't there.
[00:30:08] Chris Legg: And so I, I think that is a, i I think that's a really cool picture that you're experiencing with that. [00:30:15] I, I, I love that imagery because, um, the imagery of, um, there was an event where I was. Teaching to a big crowd of people, and, and it felt very important up high. They had a really weirdly built stage. So it was [00:30:30] really kind of weird.
[00:30:30] Chris Legg: I was up really high above the audience and lots of people there. Well, for some reason, and now I'm looking back how, I can't imagine why, but my eldest son was there, but he was only about three, maybe four. And I'm in the middle of this talk to all of these men in this [00:30:45] room, and all of a sudden there's this tugging on my pants.
[00:30:47] Chris Legg: And Mark is standing there holding up a banana and he says, daddy peel my banana. And I mean, it's in the right, in the middle of this room, full of whatever. But in that moment, you know how, how many people are [00:31:00] allowed to interrupt me in the middle of a talk and ask me to peel their banana? Well, at that stage, one, maybe two, my wife and my son, like that was it.
[00:31:07] Chris Legg: Like they have the authority to step into my life like that. And, and I feel like that's what God is inviting. It's, it's not our [00:31:15] intuition. Our intuition, like you said, is to try to have this pious, you know, oh, father w Dow, king James, deliver me some bread. And instead of realizing that, I think what God is inviting us to do is [00:31:30] more like a child who climbs up into his lap and continues to bug him and, and like, you know, give him the, the big kitty cat eyes and ask for what we're wanting.
[00:31:42] Chris Legg: And he loves that. I think because of the [00:31:45] relationship that it, it implies and that it, it means is there. I don't, I don't understand how all this will play out long term, and I don't certainly understand the mechanics of, of a lot of this stuff, prayer being one of them. Um, but it is, it to me is a, I think it's still a [00:32:00] beautiful picture that there would be a creator of heaven and earth and all the universe who spun stars and who knows, you know, the number of hairs on our head and yet.
[00:32:10] Chris Legg: And knows us fully, and yet he still wants a relationship with us. Pure, perfect [00:32:15] knowledge. And yet choosing us anyway is to me, the main tenant of the gospel. Uh, good news that Jesus came to give is, Hey, this, this is good. The good news, God loves you and he wants you. And he's sent me to Bayou. [00:32:30] Um, and I think that's so incredible
[00:32:32] Stephanie Winn: and the good news and the bad news go together.
[00:32:35] Stephanie Winn: And, um, and so the, I wanna talk about self-esteem. This was on my mind the other day and I think you're the perfect person to talk with this about. I was thinking about [00:32:45] how, um, I was actually thinking about this on my way to church yesterday, uh, about how self-esteem is one of those concepts that secular counseling, I think is, is missing some pieces to [00:33:00] how to deal with, like without faith as part of your worldview.
[00:33:06] Stephanie Winn: There seem to be some dilemmas about self-esteem and, and the, the ways of dealing with those dilemmas [00:33:15] feel kind of superficial,
[00:33:19] Speaker 3: delusional at
[00:33:20] Stephanie Winn: best. Yeah. I mean, because here's the problem, right? People come to therapy in a secular context. People come to therapy [00:33:30] with self-hatred, self-loathing, intrusive thoughts, self demeaning thoughts, um, shame, guilt, remorse.
[00:33:38] Stephanie Winn: Some of it can be over the top, but some of it is just that we don't. [00:33:45] We aren't very good at, um, fully processing remorse.
[00:33:50] Speaker 3: Oh, that's true. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:52] Stephanie Winn: And so then it becomes this like internal tug of war where there's one voice going, like, you're so bad, you're so terrible. And another is like, no, I'm not, I'm not that bad.
[00:33:59] Stephanie Winn: I'm not that [00:34:00] terrible. And it's like a war between them. And then people go to therapy and they're like, therapist, can you like add your strength to the side of the tug of board that's on the side of, I'm not that bad. Can you just like, oh wow. Can you join in that with me? Just we're supposed to tug together on like, I'm good, [00:34:15] not bad.
[00:34:15] Stephanie Winn: And then if the therapist doesn't join in, if, if they don't become part of the collusion, then they become the bad object. And I remember a time, uh, that this happened to me in therapy where I, uh, uh, a young woman, [00:34:30] um, became very frustrated with me. Because I think that she thought therapy was supposed to be like a self-help book where it was like, that's just a pep talk.
[00:34:39] Stephanie Winn: Yeah. You're so great. Like let's build you up. And I wasn't doing that. And she became really frustrated with me and [00:34:45] started like quoting self-help books at me. Like, you should be like this person. Wow. Um, and I remember I was thinking about this on my way to church, thinking like, I'm so relieved now to have this faith that [00:35:00] really puts these things into a much clearer perspective.
[00:35:03] Chris Legg: Oh yes.
[00:35:04] Stephanie Winn: Like it tells you what to do with your shame, guilt, and remorse. It's like, yes, you are sinful actually. Yes, that's true. Good news is you're loved anyway, and you can be forgiven if you accept the gift of [00:35:15] forgiveness. And uh, you'll never be perfect. But all you gotta do is just like, try not to sin and God will cover the rest.
[00:35:22] Stephanie Winn: And like to me that feels really healthy.
[00:35:25] Chris Legg: Yes. Um,
[00:35:26] Stephanie Winn: oh my
[00:35:26] Chris Legg: gosh, this is a. Literally one of, [00:35:30] i, I say a phrase so often that somebody made it into a t-shirt at the church. Um, the phrase I ask is, have you met you? That, that anytime. I mean, I've, I I think humans are amazing. I think we're, it's a, I think we're amazing.[00:35:45]
[00:35:45] Chris Legg: I think we're fascinating. I, I just, I think there's bottomless depths to what we can learn about each other and ourselves. And I also think we're honestly just pretty awful. I mean, if you've ever studied history at all, you see the examples and we're not getting better. [00:36:00] It's, it's not like we're, we're suddenly not doing horrible things to each other all the time.
[00:36:05] Chris Legg: And, um, and even the best of us are tainted. Our, our motives, even our best mo moments are tainted by, you know, am I, am I getting up on Sunday morning to preach [00:36:15] because I think it's the right thing to do. Sure. Is it, 'cause I think it's. What God's called me to do. Yes. Do I also really love people looking at me with adoring eyes and telling you how amazing I am also?
[00:36:25] Chris Legg: Yes. Like these are the, the, the truth is everything we have is, [00:36:30] is tainted a little bit by imper motives. And so it's just amazing to me that anyone would think self-esteem has any power at all. Um, I, I just, I feel like if, if my [00:36:45] esteem is built purely on me, well then I need to be really honest with the fact that it, though there are some amazing things, there's also some pretty horrible things and, and so I don't, I don't see how anybody can in a healthy way, a [00:37:00] non delusional way, build their identity on themselves.
[00:37:03] Chris Legg: Um, I think most of us know, I mean, do we really think that everyone else would be a terrible slave owner? Like, I, I wouldn't wanna be a slave to you. You wouldn't wanna be a slave to me. I [00:37:15] wouldn't wanna be a slave to anyone else. So why do I wanna be a slave to me? Why, why do I think I'm a good enough slave owner to be my own master?
[00:37:23] Chris Legg: What, what a stupid idea. I mean, I, and the worst thing is I should know me better than anyone else [00:37:30] and know how terrible a slave owner I would be. So why would I wanna serve me, build my identity on me? I've met me and, and man, there's some, there's some stuff in me that I don't want anyone else to know, and I know [00:37:45] it and I'm not interested in me, the highest, the highest value, purpose, and calling of my life being me.
[00:37:53] Chris Legg: Um, and, and I have a funny feeling that it's not just me. I think maybe everybody else is just, can be just as cruddy [00:38:00] as I am. And, and so I, I really feel like it is delusional for us to build our esteem. Any fundamental sense on ourself. I think true humility is just having an accurate picture of who we are [00:38:15] because of who God says we are.
[00:38:16] Chris Legg: And having too high an opinion. You you'll appreciate a few years ago, I wish I had this study, I can't, can't find it anymore, but years ago there was a, 'cause I don't remember that exact numbers, but there was a study done on third grade students as to math [00:38:30] skill and perceived math skill. And America students in Korean students scored first and last in this way.
[00:38:37] Chris Legg: American students out of the group scored last on math skill, but highest on perceived math skill. [00:38:45] Well, they had, so did they have great, they had great self-esteem. It was just delusional self-esteem. They're actually of the group, they were the worst at math, but thought they were the best. Well, the Korean kids were the switch.
[00:38:58] Chris Legg: They were the best at math, but [00:39:00] thought they were the worst. That's also not healthy. That's not healthy. It's if, if you're the best at something, it's okay to be like, yeah, I'm, I'm really good at that. But probably plenty other places where we're not. So yeah, I have what in theological terms, it's called a low [00:39:15] anthropology.
[00:39:15] Chris Legg: I don't, I don't have a super high opinion of humans when it comes to the fundamentals. Um, again, I think we're, we're amazing. I, I'm, I'm not minimizing how wonderful at amazing we are. I'm just also not [00:39:30] minimizing how horrific we can be. We need someone from the outside to save us and offer us value and purpose and significance.
[00:39:40] Chris Legg: Um, self-proclaimed treasure is not all that valuable. [00:39:45] Just, just deciding it. I'm just, I'm, I'm valuable and grunting trying to grunt that out. It's not likely to work out very well. We need someone who's a lot more right than we are to tell us that we're treasured. Um, so anyway, yeah, I'm right there with you.
[00:39:59] Chris Legg: [00:40:00] I, I think, I think this affirmation only based therapy is, it's a dead end. My only job is to pat my client on the head and tell them what whatever ridiculous perspective or whatever perspective they have, ridiculous or amazing is just [00:40:15] always amazing. Um, I think that that is unkind. It's unloving, it's uncaring, and it will be replaced by AI within five years.
[00:40:23] Chris Legg: Um, if I just want something to affirm me, my chat, GPT is happy to do it.
[00:40:28] Stephanie Winn: Oh, it's already there. [00:40:30]
[00:40:30] Chris Legg: It's there. So, but therapists a true living human being who will call me on my junk and go like, Hmm, yeah, that's, that's wrong. That's, that's not helpful. You say you wanna get to the top, but you, you say you wanna get to this [00:40:45] place, but you're going this direction.
[00:40:47] Chris Legg: And, and the AI will pat me on the head and go, great question. That's an interesting point you've made. And they really need someone to say, you understand your destination is determined by your direction, not your intention. Right. I mean, you know, that's the rule of [00:41:00] life and. Some clients are gonna be offended by that.
[00:41:04] Chris Legg: I'm gonna go program my AI therapist to tell me what I want to hear.
[00:41:08] Stephanie Winn: The reality is, at least for me, I don't know, I can't speak for anyone else, but I get tired of being myself. [00:41:15] Yeah, like I can't listen to my own podcast.
[00:41:20] Chris Legg: Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm right there with you. I am right there with you.
[00:41:24] Stephanie Winn: I got so sick of myself yesterday.
[00:41:26] Stephanie Winn: I was like, oh, can I just like not be [00:41:30] myself for five minutes?
[00:41:32] Chris Legg: Have you ever seen that? There's a shirt that says Always Be yourself, and then there that says like, unless you can be Batman, in which case, always be Batman. I thought about getting that, getting that your someone other than me sometimes would be a nice change.[00:41:45]
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[00:42:41] Stephanie Winn: Like she was so relieved to be out of her body. This was [00:42:45] someone who had dealt with addiction and all kinds of issues, and I just felt her like, thank goodness I'm free. Um, I, I get tired of being myself [00:43:00] and, um. And I mean, it's like, it's, that's where the good news comes in, right? That, that, that you are more than your sin.
[00:43:11] Stephanie Winn: You are more than the [00:43:15] patterns that get stuck in your body and mind. Um, and actually, you know, what this bleeds into is the topic of psychedelics. And here's why. Because, um, psychedelics are known for causing an experience of ego [00:43:30] death as well as neuroplasticity. And, um, I can't remember, was it Joe Dispenza who wrote Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself?
[00:43:39] Stephanie Winn: I'm not sure if that was about psychedelics in particular. Um, but uh. [00:43:45] So the reason I'm bringing this up for listeners who are just hearing me introduce this in the conversation now is, uh, Chris and I were talking beforehand about how I, I decided I'm gonna do a series of round tables on Christianity and [00:44:00] psychedelics, and the group chat got real fiery real quick because we have some strongly opinionated people who believe there is no Christian grounds whatsoever for any psychedelic use.
[00:44:12] Stephanie Winn: And that, um, it's [00:44:15] clearly like, uh, there, there are people with a Christian stance that it states very clearly in scripture that Christians are not to do such things. And then there are other people in the group chat who are like Christian psychedelic therapists. Um, [00:44:30] so the group chat's going off. I'm trying to get people to save it for the actual conversations we'll have at some point, probably in 2026, um, as far as when they air on this podcast.
[00:44:42] Stephanie Winn: And so before we start recording [00:44:45] for listeners, I, I asked Chris, where do you stand? I was asking all my guests to rate themselves on a scale from one to 10, where do you stand? Where one being totally against any psychedelic use, uh, and 10 being very positive toward it. And you said you were a five. So, um, you know, I, I think there is [00:45:00] that connection here because one of the arguments that could be made in favor of psychedelics, is there impact on neuroplasticity?
[00:45:09] Stephanie Winn: What are your thoughts on that?
[00:45:10] Chris Legg: I mean, I've seen it. Uh, I've had a couple of clients who have gone [00:45:15] through this and I, the re part of why I'm a five, I'll say I'm a five for a few reasons. One, I'm not convinced that there's enough solid research yet to. Identify what its best uses are and what its potential risks [00:45:30] are.
[00:45:31] Chris Legg: Um, so I would say like that's one reason why I'm a a five or like solidly, I don't know. Um, I think another one is 'cause, 'cause obviously there are inherent risks. All medical decisions are cost [00:45:45] benefit analysis. But I've also had clients who had multi-layered addictions that they were getting no headway with for years.
[00:45:56] Chris Legg: Go do psychedelics. They had the funds and the resources to go somewhere else [00:46:00] in the world and do this tr do this treatment, uh, with some level of professionalism and, and had their, I mean addictions. Uh, and then the case of one gentleman has his three [00:46:15] different addictions in three different treatments just go away.
[00:46:21] Chris Legg: I mean, he was a hard line alcoholic, hard life. I mean, he couldn't go more than a few hours without alcohol. And he, since [00:46:30] that, as of the day that he did that treatment and came back the last time he and I spoke, it had been several months and he had not even desired alcohol yet. Um, that's extraordinary.
[00:46:42] Chris Legg: I mean, that's, that is extraordinary. And it's, and [00:46:45] and I do think, especially with addictions that start young when we're young, um, and those pathways are formed and those reward systems are put in place, um, the dopamine reward systems are put in place and our cyclical, [00:47:00] if what a psychedelic treatment can do is essentially wipe that, wipe those pathways and patterns out and lets you rebuild something different.
[00:47:10] Chris Legg: I'm, I'm intrigued. I think that's an intriguing conversation. [00:47:15] I mean. I know sometimes as Christians, one Christians were infamous for overreacting quickly to things that we've not thought through. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm old enough to remember when the first evidence of the fact that there may [00:47:30] be genetic predispositions for attraction issues that like people, like, whether it's same sex attraction or even other attractions, that there may be a genetic predisposition for some of those.
[00:47:43] Chris Legg: I remember when that first came out [00:47:45] and people just, you know, lost their mind talking about, like, immediately Christians often lost their mind, and I remember at the time James Dobson was one of them, but there weren't many who stepped up and were like, um, I'm pretty sure it's part of the Christian doctrine that, that we're [00:48:00] born broken, like we're, we're conceived, broken.
[00:48:03] Chris Legg: There's something broken and fleshly in us from concept. Why would this be the one magical thing that someone could not have somehow broken in them? If, if you're going to, you know, if, if this is what you believe about [00:48:15] this. Like this, this would not somehow defy that. Let's stop and talk about this versus just react to it.
[00:48:22] Stephanie Winn: Oh, I actually wanna pause on that point. 'cause I know I asked you about psychedelics and you're still talking about that, but I think what [00:48:30] you just said is, um, can I ask you to say that again? Actually, maybe expound on it a little bit.
[00:48:37] Chris Legg: Okay. So, so this idea that, that, um, that Christians over sometimes overreact, we [00:48:45] pounce on things without having a good conversation about it sometimes.
[00:48:48] Chris Legg: First, um, an example I gave was when the first evidence came out that there might be a pre, you know, genetic predisposition for attraction issues or attraction. And, [00:49:00] and the initial response of Christians in a lot of the circles was like this explosive, no, God would never do that type of thing. When really the part of Christian doctrine is that human beings are conceived, already broken.
[00:49:11] Chris Legg: Like there is something in us that needs to be healed and fixed and rescued and [00:49:15] saved from conception. And so why would this, if you're gonna, if even if you say, well, this is something that's sinful, well, it's not the one magical sin that people could not be born with a predisposition towards. Were, were born with predispositions towards all of these things.[00:49:30]
[00:49:30] Chris Legg: And so the minute you stopped and talked, even from a theological perspective for five minutes about the topic, it was Oh, right. That's a good point. We, we probably could have a more sophisticated conversation about it. Um, I'm, I mean, I'm, gosh, I, I, I grew up in the [00:49:45] eighties, so I grew up during the Satanic panic, and then when Harry Potter hit, and, and all of a sudden everybody was going out of their minds because somehow the most horrible thing ever was a fiction book about kids who went to a school for witches and.
[00:49:59] Chris Legg: I remember at the time [00:50:00] being like, man, I mean, one, my voice was silenced on the topic. The minute that somebody found out I was a Christian as a therapist, literally news agencies. I mean, there were news, uh, stations calling me to ask me my opinion on Harry Potter as a therapist. And I'd [00:50:15] be like, well, I'm, I'm concerned about the fact that the children lied sheet and steal, and the good teachers are the ones who cover for them.
[00:50:20] Chris Legg: And the evil teachers are the ones who wanna apply to rules. Like, I think that's a conversation that parents need to really have with their children that disobeying the rules the [00:50:30] way Harry and her irony and, and Ron do, gets you killed that, that doesn't work out in real life. But, but I couldn't talk about that because the minute they found that I was also a Christian, they would be like, oh, well, so you're probably against it.
[00:50:41] Chris Legg: Like, I'm not worried about if you, if you join a, with the [00:50:45] Wiccan movement because you're at Harry Potter, you're in for a huge disappointment. So it's not like that. I wasn't worried about that. Like that didn't worry me. Well, in the same way, I think Christians often with something like this, this psychedelic conversation.
[00:50:57] Chris Legg: There's an immediate knee [00:51:00] jerk reaction because of the dangers and the risks involved in opening ourselves up to these influences, human influences. Um, of course, even the question of spiritual influences, and it's a fair conversation. It's a [00:51:15] conversation needs to be part of the topic. But like I, I think I mentioned to you before, um, I, I'm under the impression that fentanyl was one of the, the chemicals that the doctors used to knock me unconscious when I had surgery one time.
[00:51:29] Chris Legg: [00:51:30] And I'm usually not a big fan of fentanyl. That's not something that I think is a safe or appropriate or recreational for anybody. But now we're talking medical ethics and sometimes medical ethics have a different lens to them. I expo I'm comfortable being [00:51:45] wheeled into a room full of people with parts of me exposed that I don't normally expose to anyone, um, because it's medical, 'cause I'm under about to be having surgery or a test or something like that.
[00:51:55] Chris Legg: Done. So we have to evaluate this. I think these need to be [00:52:00] evaluated through a medical lens. But also what I don't want to do, Stephanie, is pull the Christian voice out of the conversation. And if our answer is always, no, no, no, bad, bad, bad, no, no, no. Well then we're gonna be immediately removed from the conversation instead of being involved in the [00:52:15] conversation.
[00:52:15] Chris Legg: And I, I want our Christian voices to be involved. I had this one client I was telling you about a minute ago. One of his experiences that he had was very easy to interpret scripturally, to give him an [00:52:30] interpretation that was scripturally sound, this encounter that he had. But he didn't know that. So the fact that he came to me and I was able to say, gosh, that sounds identical to this passage in scripture, which you experienced, to give him an [00:52:45] interpretation tool to understand what he experienced through a lens that was right and moral and hopefully healthy and not just.
[00:52:54] Chris Legg: The, the, the tree spirits were speaking to me, um, you know, out of [00:53:00] the ether. And it's like, that sounds confusing and also not right. And so I have a different interpretation tool based on what you just told me. And when you saw it, it was like, this is it. Like this is what you're showing me. This is what I experienced.
[00:53:12] Chris Legg: Thank you for this [00:53:15] interpretation. And so I actually think it'd be healthy for Christians to be, it, continue to have a voice and to be involved in this. Um, and to, and to kind of wait to see what the medical side of things end up being before we [00:53:30] remove our voices from the conversation. So that's why I'm a five.
[00:53:33] Chris Legg: I'm waiting to see what does this look like and what is the, you know, what, what is the evidence that we unpack? How valuable is it? And I just don't know yet. [00:53:45]
[00:53:45] Stephanie Winn: So you're beginning to make a case for Christians having a place in psychedelic integration counseling. I,
[00:53:52] Chris Legg: I, I think that might be, again, uh, I'm a five, but, uh, potentially, yes.
[00:53:57] Chris Legg: I mean, I think it may be that, [00:54:00] that there is a way that Christians can be involved in the integration of people's experiences in a way that is healthy, good, right? Et cetera.
[00:54:12] Stephanie Winn: So in witnessing what [00:54:15] people have to say on this topic, um, one sort of hard line stance I've seen at one end of the spectrum is if someone claims to have a spiritual experience of Jesus or Heaven or the God of the [00:54:30] Bible or anything like this, but they're on psychedelic drugs, it's fake.
[00:54:33] Stephanie Winn: It's a, it's a delusion. Um, I can understand that a bit as like a protective. Stance. Almost like a hypervigilant, [00:54:45] like let's not let people think that they can take psychedelic drugs and go meet Jesus because that, that could, that's, I mean there's like a slippery soap argument there for sure. Um, among other things.
[00:54:59] Stephanie Winn: Um, and, [00:55:00] and maybe that, that might not be the entirety of their position. 'cause I'm, I don't even know who I'm quoting or what their full position is. I'm just saying I've seen this position represented. I've also seen the position that none of us can say what lengths God will go [00:55:15] to to meet us or where he's willing to meet us.
[00:55:18] Stephanie Winn: And um, one of my former guests who will be part of some of these future round tables is Will Spencer, who's done a lot of psychedelic drugs and is now completely against them [00:55:30] as a Christian and. Yeah. And part of his conversion story involves being a burning man. And, um, there is a, a group that went out to Burning Man to preach.
[00:55:43] Stephanie Winn: They went out to be [00:55:45] a sanctuary for people who were encountering spiritual trouble in the desert. I'm sure that they probably helped a lot of people who were tripping. Um, 'cause uh, you know, there's a lot of people on drugs out there at [00:56:00] Burning Man, and you're wandering through the desert and you, you might be dehydrated and you're looking for a place that feels safe and here's, you know, coolness and shade and something to drink and someone to talk to about the experience that you're having.
[00:56:13] Stephanie Winn: So that's [00:56:15] where these people did their ministry. And for Will, that was really impactful. So I'm, I'm sort of seeing it from both sides. On the one hand, understanding some of the caution and defending the position that. Uh, [00:56:30] the scripture and doctrine is enough and, and, and looking at what people see as admonitions in the scripture against what they call sorcery.
[00:56:39] Chris Legg: Part of the challenge is, if I remember correctly, the Greek word for sorcery is where we get the word pharmacy. [00:56:45]
[00:56:45] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[00:56:45] Chris Legg: Um, it's pharmaca, if I remember correctly, some version of that. And so that it makes sense that what a lot of these magicians allegedly 2000 years ago were experiencing was probably involving different [00:57:00] drugs in order to try to connect them to the gods or to the spirits.
[00:57:04] Chris Legg: And how much of that is just fraudulent? How much of that is psychology and brain chemistry, and how much of that is actual spiritual interaction? I don't, I don't know that we're, have the pay grade. We're at the pay grade to [00:57:15] know how to dissect that always. Um, I think that's, I, I, what I agree with is I think there are potential risks to it, and that's part of why I want our voice.
[00:57:27] Chris Legg: To continue to be involved so that it doesn't become [00:57:30] just a, like you said, it doesn't just become a, Hey, you wanna experience Jesus, I've got the drug for you.
[00:57:34] Stephanie Winn: Yeah.
[00:57:35] Chris Legg: It's not necessary to have the intercession of a drug in order to meet God or to meet Christ and just like near-death experiences or any personal experience, [00:57:45] you know, my, that's, that's just a psychological state.
[00:57:48] Chris Legg: That's not a creation of truth. And so if someone has a near death experience and they say, oh, I, I saw hell and there were, you know, you know, demons beating people in hell like, okay, I [00:58:00] don't know what you experienced, but that is not the biblical picture of hell. And I trust the revelation of scripture over your experience.
[00:58:07] Stephanie Winn: Let's talk about near death experiences actually. Um, have you read Sean? I think it's similar
[00:58:13] Chris Legg: to what we're talking about with the [00:58:15] psychedelics by the way.
[00:58:16] Stephanie Winn: Have you read John Burke's books? Imagine Heaven. Or Imagine The God of Heaven.
[00:58:20] Chris Legg: I haven't read them. No. I'm familiar with them. And again, you know, being in my fifties now, I've had every, every about five to 10 years, there's another sweeping [00:58:30] push about near death experiences and there's a new one that's whatever, you know, however many minutes in heaven or however many minutes in hell or, or whatever.
[00:58:40] Chris Legg: And I'm just, what I tell people is it's a, it's a cool experience and God can use that experience in [00:58:45] your life for sure. Just like he can use any experience. Um, it doesn't mean you actually experienced what the afterlife is like. And there's, there would be no way to confirm that. [00:59:00] That's why we have to trust scripture and in what it reveals about those things, um, as more evidence than just what our experiences is.
[00:59:08] Chris Legg: 'cause we're humans, we can have all kinds of, I mean, I've. I've been so certain of so many things in my life that I turned out to be wrong about, [00:59:15] that I should always be very dubious of my own psychological state and experience like we started with, but I'm fascinated by it. I'm curious, so this specific one, this one stood out to you?
[00:59:26] Stephanie Winn: Well, I, I loved these two books. Um, they are written [00:59:30] from a Christian perspective and, uh, based on the study of something like a thousand Near Death experiences and comparing them to c to scripture. Mm. So he That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um, I just didn't know [00:59:45] how much we knew about heaven. Um, like I, I didn't know how much there was in scripture about heaven.
[00:59:51] Stephanie Winn: And then that there are so many near death experiences that give vivid descriptions of the same things that are detailed in scripture, [01:00:00] including the, you know, the. The stones that the wall around the city is, are made of. And, um, the, the perfect grass and everything being transparent and luminescent and the river that washes [01:00:15] away the, uh, the last bits of earthly existence.
[01:00:18] Stephanie Winn: And, um, there's some very compelling and beautiful stories in these books.
[01:00:24] Chris Legg: I think that's really the way we need to engage with it is, uh, I don't think it's that we know it's not real [01:00:30] and I also don't think we know that it is real. And so that's what's cool is that's therapists are good at interpreting and reframing.
[01:00:37] Chris Legg: That's part of our job is to help people do that. Okay. Can you see this through this lens? Can you see this through this lens? Which, which is the [01:00:45] lens that, that, that lends, that supports best what we have revealed to us as truth and what doesn't? I mean, we've been doing that with dreams from day one that, you know, from the time Freud was starting this stuff, like us experiencing and interpreting what's going on now, sometimes [01:01:00] very, very badly.
[01:01:00] Chris Legg: Don't, don't get me wrong. Um, but, but it is a us learning to help people. 'cause in scripture we have God to reveal himself through dreams. I mean, I mean, you know, one guy got the truth revealed to him by a speaking donkey. And so [01:01:15] I think if that's on the table, kind of everything else is too, that God might use just about anything in order to speak to us.
[01:01:22] Chris Legg: That's why I think, but we can't know a certain trip or a certain drug ex experience. What we [01:01:30] know it does is affect the brain chemistry. Can that cause hallucinations? Yes, it can. That certainly can. Can it cause an invented experience? Yes, it can. We know it can. Could it also be that the things in us [01:01:45] slow down or calm down enough?
[01:01:47] Chris Legg: We can finally hear a voice from God that he's been saying all along, and that allows us to finally hear from him. I also think that's plausible. And so that's why I think what we, you know, I, I'm hesitant [01:02:00] for us to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak, to say, we know it's dangerous, therefore we should run from it.
[01:02:06] Chris Legg: Versus we know it's dangerous, therefore we need to learn how to wield it. Well, uh, we need to learn what it's supposed to be. We need to create a [01:02:15] profession around it. We need to create ethical guidelines around it. We need to, and the Christian voice needs to be involved in all of that. And so anyway, that's, that's my opinion as to how we engage with all of these tough questions.
[01:02:27] Chris Legg: Um, when, when all [01:02:30] we have is an agenda that is, that is the backing of, of our perspective, then I, I think that can be. Potentially we can end up missing out. It's safer to play it safe. I mean, it's safer to make the error of, well, we could have said [01:02:45] yes sometimes, but we said no all the time. It's safer, but I don't know that that's always best
[01:02:50] Stephanie Winn: and saying these things as a, as a, a baby to scripture.
[01:02:54] Stephanie Winn: Um, but the, the couple things that come to my mind on the issue are one in Genesis [01:03:00] where God basically tells us state everything. Um, and two, um, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians where he says everything is permitted, but that doesn't necessarily mean everything is a good idea. Um, but the, you [01:03:15] know, the, the major themes of the Bible being we're not under the old law anymore.
[01:03:21] Stephanie Winn: It's impossible not to sin, and we are not promised full sanctification in this lifetime. But the one way [01:03:30] to give thanks for the free gift of salvation is to try not to sin. So if we're to try not to sin, does that mean don't do psychedelics because scripture clearly says that that's sin. Uh, and if so, like where does that fit in with other things, [01:03:45] uh, that we also might try not to do and fail at?
[01:03:48] Stephanie Winn: Or, um, where does that fit in with our need to, um, like you say, heal our bodies, heal our minds, and, and how do we look at the medical information about [01:04:00] people recovering from PTSD or severe OCD or things like that?
[01:04:04] Chris Legg: I'd be really hard pressed. I don't think I could defend the statement that doing psychedelics is sin or that that's instructed anywhere in scripture.
[01:04:12] Chris Legg: I agree that sorcery is forbidden, but sorcery [01:04:15] isn't merely using a chemical to change our brain. It is using our chemical to change our brain with an intention. Um, it's with an intention of manipulating or controlling spiritual powers or that kind of thing. So if's [01:04:30] kind of like, think of it in terms of like, if I have a Christmas tree in my house as a way for our family to gather around and open gifts, um, okay, that's, that's kind of fun.
[01:04:40] Chris Legg: If I'm bringing the Christmas tree into my house because I'm going to carve it into an idol and [01:04:45] worship it, well then that's bad. And so if I'm worshiping the Christmas tree, that's idolatry. If I have a Christmas tree, that's not necessarily idolatry. And so and so those aren't, that's kind of the same thing to me is like, okay, so [01:05:00] intention matters in Christianity, why I'm doing something matters and, um, under what conditions I'm doing it.
[01:05:06] Chris Legg: And, and I mean, we, gosh. Even like Paul's conversation in Romans 14 about eating meat or not eating meat. Why am I eating it? Why am I not [01:05:15] eating it? That matters? And, and even behaviorally doing what seems to be the right thing. I'm teaching to Isaiah at our church right now and Isaiah one, the people are doing essentially, they're apparently following God's instructions to the letter.
[01:05:29] Chris Legg: [01:05:30] But the problem is they forgot that he knows them outside of that letter as well. And he says their words are with me, but their hearts are far from me. He specifically lists, like he says, the festivals they're doing, which are the ones he commanded. He says, I hate them. I'm sick of them. [01:05:45] And it's not because he doesn't want them doing them, it's because he wants their hearts right in doing them.
[01:05:51] Chris Legg: And so I think, I think we see that pattern and so why will do something matters for sure.
[01:05:58] Stephanie Winn: And that was a [01:06:00] question that came up for me when in this group chat, I'm witnessing my friend Will Spencer saying, you know, this is, uh. Sorcery Pharmacia, however that's pronounced. Right. And it's, you know, clearly forbidden.
[01:06:14] Stephanie Winn: [01:06:15] And I found myself thinking, so are all instances of psychedelics counted under that umbrella and, and this intentionality piece?
[01:06:24] Chris Legg: I, I don't think that's how that works. I, I, I would not be ever willing to say [01:06:30] any, anything that falls under the heading of Pharmaca in the Greek is automatically evil. Um, it's that, doing that with this intention is what's gonna be evil.
[01:06:39] Stephanie Winn: What you were saying about, um, what Paul says about eating meat. Mm-hmm. Uh, so our pastor actually covered that [01:06:45] recently. Um, and, and it was in a sermon on how do we know what the right thing to do is, uh, in situations where. It's not necessarily obvious. Um, if we're considering, uh, the [01:07:00] examples he gave were, um, drinking, chewing, tobacco, uh, tattoos, things like this.
[01:07:07] Stephanie Winn: And he had four points. Let me see if I can remember them off the top of my head. I think it was, what does scripture [01:07:15] say? What does your conscience say? What do your own personal weaknesses mean you need to do? Um, because you know, if you have a propensity towards addiction or something like that,
[01:07:27] Speaker 3: right?
[01:07:27] Stephanie Winn: Um, and, and four, what [01:07:30] do those around you need from you? How can you behave in a way that won't cause others to stumble? So for example, when it comes to drinking, uh, maybe you don't personally have a problem with alcohol. Maybe a drink or two is okay, but your spouse is recovering from [01:07:45] alcoholism. So in order for them to not stumble, you abstain.
[01:07:49] Stephanie Winn: Um, absolutely. And, and so that seemed like really very practical. Guidance to me, um, very
[01:07:56] Chris Legg: stressful. That's dead on.
[01:07:58] Stephanie Winn: And, and so how [01:08:00] do, 'cause yeah. So how do you think that that framework, which again, he was referencing that, that part where Paul was describing, and so for, for listeners who aren't familiar, this was in the part where they were talking about eating meat that has been offered [01:08:15] to an idol, right?
[01:08:16] Stephanie Winn: Right. So, um, so this was in a time when the, you know, early Christian Church was coexisting with all these other cultures including, um, you know, polytheistic cultures where meat was sacrificed as an offering [01:08:30] to different gods. And so it's like, the question is, is it sinful to eat meat that's been sacrificed to another God?
[01:08:35] Stephanie Winn: And if I understand correctly, Paul's response was, it's not inherently sinful because these other gods are made up. It's, it's not like, you know, the only, there's, there's one [01:08:45] true God. Um, but if you are going to eat it in a way that. Causes your neighbor to stumble. In other words, that causes those who are baby Christians fresh out of a polytheistic [01:09:00] religion.
[01:09:00] Stephanie Winn: If you eating that meat sacrifice to that idol makes them wanna go back to their old religion, then maybe don't do that. That, that's my understanding. What about you?
[01:09:09] Chris Legg: Oh yeah, I think that's, I mean, your pastor sounds like he taught it extremely back. That's, that's dead on. I mean, that's, [01:09:15] so literally in Roman cities you have the main road, which is where the market would be.
[01:09:20] Chris Legg: And in order to bring certain things onto the market, there was, there would be idols set up. And to bring it onto the market, you would have to stop and [01:09:30] sacrifice some of it to that God, meaning the priests would take some of it and then you could take the rest out there. And so it had been blessed by Zeus, or blessed by Aphrodite, or blessed by.
[01:09:44] Chris Legg: And the Apostle [01:09:45] Paul being, you know, an extremely experienced pragmatist. I mean, theologically trained like crazy as a, as a Pharisee, he would spend his whole life being trained in theology. And so he's now converted to Christianity and realizes, I [01:10:00] mean, that's, do I eat that meat? Sure. It's, it has no power over me.
[01:10:05] Chris Legg: If, if, if it's, whether it's, you know, been blessed by Aphrodite is irrelevant to me, it's just meat. And she has no power over me. I'm not worshiping her when I eat that meat. [01:10:15] Like, I'm not sinning to eat meat. It is not sin to eat meat. And the fact that some goddess, you know, thinks she's blessed it, that has no bearing on me.
[01:10:23] Chris Legg: I don't, I don't care. But if it causes someone else to stumble, I'm not entitled to it either. I'm not entitled to [01:10:30] meet, I don't get it just because I, well, I get to have it. If it's gonna cause another brother or sister to struggle, well then I just won't have them meet. That's also an easy call. And to, in Paul's mind.
[01:10:39] Chris Legg: Well, so an example is I host. I know this is strange. As a Baptist pastor, [01:10:45] I host a poker game once a month at my house, and we smoke cigars and there are people who drink adult beverages at this, at this event. But we've always said, listen, if there's anybody out there who wants to come, who is struggling with alcohol addiction or nicotine addiction, [01:11:00] then just tell us you want to come and we won't do it.
[01:11:03] Chris Legg: I mean, it's, we just, yeah. And, and it's a normal part of our experience, but if you want to come and that's gonna cause you to stumble in any way, well, that's an easy call. We would rather have you there and so [01:11:15] come and we just won't. Um, I don't think it's sin to do e any of those things. Obviously, to play poker with friends or to drink alcohol or to smoke a cigar, I don't think are inherently sinful.
[01:11:26] Chris Legg: But they could be if it causes a brother or [01:11:30] sister of mine, uh, to stumble in some way. And it's, and it's, and it's not like I'm entitled to those things. I don't get them, uh, it's. There's something that I can enjoy, and I don't have any addictive, I have no addictive connections to any of those three. I have my own addictions, [01:11:45] uh, so people bring me donuts.
[01:11:47] Chris Legg: That's different. That's, that's that potentially causing me to stumble. Um, but I think that is a, uh, I think that's a good example and again, falls into this conversation about even [01:12:00] psychedelics is okay. Part of the conversation is how does it affect others and what are other people experiencing and how does my attitude affect others?
[01:12:09] Chris Legg: And am I willing to have the conversation in a loving, awesome way, [01:12:15] which is the what hopefully Christians can do. But I don't like smoking a cigar. I don't see in scripture where psychedelics are inherently forbidden. I know what passages this person would be referencing with the [01:12:30] term Pharmaca, but I think they're over applying that term in the same way that someone who says.
[01:12:37] Chris Legg: Me having a Christmas tree is idolatry. Well, it could be. It, it might be if I worship that tree, that would be [01:12:45] idolatry. Um, if I am using these chemicals in order to have a spiritual connection, um, to try to manipulate, you know, the spiritual realm, then yeah, that's sorcery. Don't do that. If I'm [01:13:00] having this experience because I have a long-term addiction or long time trauma or long time, uh, delusional or dissociative disorder, and we think, and there's been medical evidence that this can help cure those or help those or improve those, [01:13:15] well then under the right conditions, it's like, you know, when they gave me fentanyl in order to, or they give my daughter laughing gas in order to, to fix her teeth.
[01:13:26] Chris Legg: Like I, I think those are potentially [01:13:30] dangerous, but under the right medical care they can be helpful and advantageous. Is that true of psychedelics? I don't know enough yet to answer that question, but I mean that, I don't know either direction, how to answer, whether I can answer that. So I appreciate those who feel like they do, and I'm [01:13:45] think it's great.
[01:13:47] Chris Legg: I'm glad the conversation's being had. They're not going back in the box.
[01:13:51] Stephanie Winn: Hmm.
[01:13:52] Chris Legg: So, I'm glad you having conversation.
[01:13:53] Stephanie Winn: Glad you brought up the, the poker, um, and cigars. You know, there was one little [01:14:00] thing from that sermon that I would've liked more dialogue on, which was that he, he described someone who, um, I can't remember what terms he used, but someone who smoked cigars as like [01:14:15] a, and, and gave thanks to the Lord while he was smoking the cigar, and like, considered it a, a blessing.
[01:14:20] Stephanie Winn: A what?
[01:14:21] Chris Legg: Probably Charles Spurgeon, a very famous Baptist pastor who smoked cigars essentially chain smoked them.
[01:14:27] Stephanie Winn: Okay. So [01:14:30] when that was brought up. I felt a little reaction as a former nicotine addict myself. Absolutely. Sure. Which is not something I've been very open about on this podcast because it's something I had so much shame about.
[01:14:41] Stephanie Winn: Like the whole time that I grappled with nicotine addiction, I was so [01:14:45] ashamed. It was really, as I've talked about on this podcast, ego dystonic. For me, it was very like, um, discordant with my sense of self, uh, to have this addiction that I was grappling with in the past. And so I thought, okay, I'm [01:15:00] hearing someone being quoted, uh, as to how he is rationalizing his own behavior and how that's not a problem for him.
[01:15:09] Stephanie Winn: But my worry is if we're gonna use the logic of not causing others to stumble, the thing is [01:15:15] nicotine is such an addictive drug that like, you know, anyone who's teetering on the edge of recovering from their addiction is gonna hang on any word of Oh. It's a blessing from the Lord. Oh great, well then I'm gonna go ahead and smoke it.
[01:15:28] Stephanie Winn: You know, like, and [01:15:30] it's like, okay, that's not really helpful for them. So I just feel like when it comes to things that are really addictive, like nicotine, I, I, I just think that out of respect for our fellow man, it's not good to [01:15:45] glorify.
[01:15:45] Chris Legg: So I don't, so it's interesting 'cause for me, I'd never smoked anything till I was 30.
[01:15:49] Chris Legg: Not ever anything. So I had no young introduction to it. I had known to brain development, connection to it, you know, when those same thing with alcohol. I [01:16:00] didn't drink at all till I was much older, have any alcohol at all. I, I have friends who were alcoholics by the time they were 12, you know, and were nicotine addicts by the time they were eight.
[01:16:10] Chris Legg: For them. So for me, an example is I was introduced to pornography when I was five. [01:16:15] And so my brain, my brain learned that reward system extremely early developmentally.
[01:16:22] Stephanie Winn: And you're, you're older 'cause I know that's happening to kids on the internet, but you're like pre-internet.
[01:16:27] Chris Legg: Oh yeah. I'm definitely pre-internet.
[01:16:28] Chris Legg: I'm 50 something and so, [01:16:30] but Wow. But are my generation, most of the men I know my age were introduced to at least a Playboy or Penthouse magazine before the age of eight. It's super rare for me to meet somebody that it was after eight And so, and the childhood sex play in the neighborhood that always [01:16:45] surrounded, you know, whoever's dad had playboys or something or, and so that, that's that starting early on.
[01:16:53] Chris Legg: So I, I have, I have a wonderful marriage, like you said. The shame is clearly there [01:17:00] for me. I have to stay far away, put, make no provision for the flesh. I don't go to rated our movies if there's any kind of skin in them at all. Like none of that. I, I, I have to, I have to draw a line there where everything, I have [01:17:15] passwords and things that time out, my phones and devices, and I make to quote the Apostle Paul, I make no provision for the flesh with this because I know those systems are in my brain.
[01:17:24] Chris Legg: And eventually, if I have access to this, I will be tired enough, hungry enough, bored enough, lazy [01:17:30] enough, hurt enough, lonely enough, whatever, that I'm gonna turn to this reward system in my brain. And so I need to have all these things in place. I'm not proud of it. I, it horrifies me. 'cause I have a great marriage to a wonderful woman.
[01:17:43] Chris Legg: This is not, no, there's no shortcoming on [01:17:45] her part that this wiring is there. And so, and so it's like, but, but I had no introduction to, for example, nicotine until I was 30. So when, when people post or a sugar addiction, I grew up with a, [01:18:00] a mom who was a, um, a serial. Weight loss, you know, yo-yo dieter. So we would have lots of unhealthy food and then we would have none.
[01:18:09] Chris Legg: And then we would have some, and then we'd have none. And then we would have, she would hide it and I would find it. And so I developed a sugar [01:18:15] addiction very, very early on as well to find comfort in sugar. And so for me, I have to draw boundaries around those if, when they, when they come out. It's funny when, you know, you'll see something on social media.
[01:18:26] Chris Legg: It's like, uh, for a hundred thousand dollars would you give up alcohol [01:18:30] forever? And I'm like, I mean, for $5,000 I'd give up alcohol forever. Like, it, it holds no addictive power for me. Like sure. And the same thing is true of smoking. I enjoy sitting and having a cigar with some friends. Um, it slows me down, which is a good thing.
[01:18:44] Chris Legg: Just like black [01:18:45] coffee does. Like anything that makes me sit still for a few minutes is probably healthy for my spirituality. 'cause I'm a, I'm a kind of a chihuahua about stuff. And so that would probably good for me. It's probably good, probably a good thing for me, but it could just as easily, if I had introduced early, it could [01:19:00] just as in, just as easily represent death and addiction to me.
[01:19:03] Stephanie Winn: Yeah.
[01:19:03] Chris Legg: But if you said, Hey, I need you to, you know, you have to walk away from this for the rest of your life, it'd be like, all, all right.
[01:19:10] Speaker 3: Yeah. But if
[01:19:11] Chris Legg: you said sugar, Hey Chris, I need you to, for a hundred thousand dollars. I mean, [01:19:15] you have to give up sugar for the rest of your life. Ooh. I, I would have to, I don't know that I could do it, and I know I would fail at it even if I said I was gonna do it.
[01:19:25] Chris Legg: Um, and then back to the question of the psychedelics. I would pay someone a hundred thousand [01:19:30] dollars to take away the temptation of pornography for me. Like I would love to have it gone out of my life. And is, is there gonna come a day when we properly understand the psychedelics well enough that with the proper treatment that could be done for [01:19:45] me?
[01:19:46] Chris Legg: Yeah. I, I would, I might be willing to risk it depending on the situation. And so I think that's, that's, that's what I mean when I'm talking about the, that side of it is. You don't ever wanna glorify any of these things. We're [01:20:00] frail humans. We can become addicted to working out. We can become addicted to too much food and we can become addicted to too little food.
[01:20:06] Chris Legg: That's how broken we are. And so to say, how do we then engage with this conversation in a sophisticated way, in a healthy [01:20:15] way? I think that's what this requires, is if for some people, is there a place for blank? Maybe.
[01:20:23] Stephanie Winn: Yeah.
[01:20:23] Chris Legg: Unless the Bible specifically calls it out as sin, we have to be very careful not to.
[01:20:28] Stephanie Winn: It's such a good point. And a [01:20:30] practical example I think we're giving of, of just honest self-reflection. Like, you know, what your weaknesses are. You know, I don't have a problem with food. I don't have a problem with alcohol. In fact, I, my body can't handle, uh, very much alcohol [01:20:45] at all. 'cause I have a, I have a condition, um, and with food, if I overeat or I eat the wrong food.
[01:20:51] Stephanie Winn: Absolutely aggravates my condition. My body just says no to those things. Um, but like, I definitely prefer not to [01:21:00] be around the smell of tobacco. Not just because like some cigarettes smell gross, but some of them, like, you know, I, I have my, my stress triggers too, right? When I was working on that addiction, there was a long period of time where my addiction was just like hanging [01:21:15] on by a thread, and I really had to learn how to manage my stress triggers.
[01:21:21] Stephanie Winn: Um, and this is part of how I know from personal experience as well as professional experience about how addictive patterns work. And it's [01:21:30] not just chemical or behavioral addictions. It's, um, thought, thought patterns. Obsessive compulsive disorder looks so much like addiction, right? And it's like your, your brain develops this, [01:21:45] um.
[01:21:45] Stephanie Winn: You know, water flowing, downhill carving neural pathways, carving those channels deeper and deeper to the point where any experience that you have presses a button, that's, I better go to my comfort ritual right now.
[01:21:58] Chris Legg: So true. So [01:22:00] here's Stephanie. Here's another question that when you guys have this round table conversation, I would love to be part of the conversation is this, so when I consider how much growth and dependence and sanctification has happened in my life [01:22:15] through combating these addictive cycles, is it better if it can just be taken away in a second?
[01:22:23] Chris Legg: Or is that not better? Are we costing ourselves something if [01:22:30] we have the opportunity to rely on the spirit with something here and we, and instead we're just able to make it go away in a second? Now, I'm certainly not saying that's the case. I'm all for. Medical treatments, I'm all forgo. I I would never be one of those who says, Hey, if, if [01:22:45] you're depressed, don't take an antidepressant.
[01:22:46] Chris Legg: Just trust in Jesus. And you know, Jesus, take the wheel. Like I, I'm not, I don't buy into that mindset at all. I, I think we're supposed to do the things that are healthy for our body, including our brain chemistry as part of our responsibility, [01:23:00] um, as caretakers. But I often wonder about, would it have been better for me at 20 to just magically, poof, get rid of this, these addictions?
[01:23:12] Chris Legg: I think so. Maybe what could I have done with that energy [01:23:15] if I wasn't spending it on this? At the same time, man, a lot of my growth has been working through the wilderness of these addictions, and so I, I, I think that's part of the conversation we have to have as well, is, are we costing ourselves [01:23:30] something if we can make our bad habits go away too easily?
[01:23:34] Chris Legg: And I don't know the answer that
[01:23:35] Stephanie Winn: actually. It brings up a really kind of similar question that I haven't quite put into words about sanctification. It's, it's one of [01:23:45] the things that I think the first month that I was a Christian, I really struggled with, like my brain couldn't solve this puzzle. It was like I was trying to solve a a 3D puzzle in 2D or something.
[01:23:58] Stephanie Winn: I, I, and, [01:24:00] and it has to do with repentance, um, yeah, repentance and sanctification. And I was reading a lot of CS Lewis, which was a huge help. And um, and I can't remember which of his books or lectures this was in, but there [01:24:15] was a, maybe it was the Great Divorce or maybe it was the commentary on the Great Divorce that I was listening to.
[01:24:22] Stephanie Winn: There was a podcast, uh, where they talk about the Great divorce. Um, yeah, maybe it was the podcast. But [01:24:30] it is basically the idea being expressed is that to those who are headed. Towards hell. Life on Earth would've been part of the process that, that you would've kind of been in hell the whole time you were on earth [01:24:45] because that's where you were going.
[01:24:46] Stephanie Winn: That's what you were cultivating. And likewise, to those who end up in heaven, that you, you would look back on your time on Earth as basically the footstool of heaven. And that in that light, [01:25:00] everything makes sense. And, and I guess a related metaphor that people often use is the GPS metaphor, right? If, if you're going to a certain destination and you're taking wrong turns, heading the wrong direction, and then you finally realize, oh, I need to turn that way and go the other [01:25:15] direction that your GPS will accommodate, it'll catch up and you'll take a different route and, and you'll take longer, but you'll get there.
[01:25:22] Stephanie Winn: Um, and so, as I said, my, my brain was trying to. Make sense of [01:25:30] repentance and remorse and like, and the part of the puzzle that just couldn't compute is like, well, but if I'm here now, uh, then all the bad decisions that led me [01:25:45] here, like, are they not, are, are they from some perspective, they're good decisions in the end.
[01:25:51] Stephanie Winn: I mean, they, they become sanctified somehow. I, I don't know. Like I, I, you know, I, I am, I'm with uh, my husband who I prayed for, and he's a lovely [01:26:00] human, lovely, lovely person. Nobody like him on the planet. At least that's what I choose to believe. And, um, and he is so right for me. And, um, and so I think back on the time before I met him, and [01:26:15] he, he wouldn't have been available.
[01:26:16] Stephanie Winn: Like we could not have met any sooner. And there was such a long time when I was feeling like, like. Very stuck in the process of meeting my person. And so when I think of, okay, on the one hand, if I could go back [01:26:30] and give my much younger self advice, I could have spared myself so much trouble with all the wrong people, you know?
[01:26:38] Stephanie Winn: Um, and maybe on that path I ended up with a different husband. But, you know, I'm actually really happy with the one that I met [01:26:45] that I couldn't have met any sooner. And, and part of what taught me to appreciate him was all the bozos I met before him. So, you know, so do I regret anything? Like that's kind of, that, that's, that's the question that keeps coming up for me.[01:27:00]
[01:27:00] Chris Legg: I, I think, I think a healthy answer, especially for a Christian who believes in a sovereign God is do I regret things? Would I change things? I mean, sure I would, but would I want to change the results of what God has done through some of these things? [01:27:15] Yeah, no, I wouldn't. And so it creates a funny, that's a funny yes no answer that I think we, we just live with is.
[01:27:22] Chris Legg: This is the beauty from Ashes concept is God makes beautiful things from ashes. Well, you know, that's, I gave him [01:27:30] plenty of ashes and he's made some beautiful things from it, and I can be grateful for that. And I, and it's all academic anyway, because we can't change it. We can't go back and do anything about it.
[01:27:41] Chris Legg: Um, I think we're responsible to do with what we have [01:27:45] now. If we know there's something in our life that's unhealthy, that's ungodly, then we repent. Like you said, we go the other way and we're gonna be bad at it. Um, we're not gonna be good at walking away from things, especially old established habit patterns.
[01:27:58] Chris Legg: And luckily, his [01:28:00] grace is sufficient. And when you walk away from one and you get far enough away and you're like, I'm really living in victory about this, that's all right. You'll, you'll discover another one. You'll discover another unhealthy pattern. An unhealthy perspective, an unhealthy, that's, that's something that we get to do at least until [01:28:15] glorification and even maybe past that is to continue to learn and grow.
[01:28:19] Chris Legg: Um, but yeah, it's, it's. It's a crazy picture and a, a beautiful one. You, you might appreciate one, um, a podcast that we host at the church that actually, Lord willing, [01:28:30] we're gonna be having you on at some point. Uh oh, I forgot the
[01:28:32] Speaker 3: reconstructed,
[01:28:33] Chris Legg: the Reconstructed Faith podcast at some point. Um, which I encourage.
[01:28:38] Chris Legg: We actually, a lot of these big questions that you're talking about, where we come from, this is, that's what this whole podcast was [01:28:45] about. It was as we saw people deconstructing their faith and then feeling isolated in that, we wanted people to know that the deconstruction and reconstruction of our faith is a normal process.
[01:28:56] Chris Legg: We're always, that's just called growth. And we don't want people to [01:29:00] feel like when you deconstruct something, when you challenge something, when something changes, you don't have to then be done. Uh, that, that, that's just now you reconstruct, you build from this better understanding. Hopefully we're always doing that.
[01:29:12] Chris Legg: And, and a lot of the questions that [01:29:15] even you're discussing, which I, I mean, I'm looking forward to that even more now, is the, is this whole like. Some of these questions of what does it mean now to be us and what does it mean to be in him and what are, you know, how does this work or that work? It's, it's a, [01:29:30] it's, it's an ongoing, lifelong, probably eternity long process of, of continuing to grow.
[01:29:37] Chris Legg: That's one of things I love about Lewis' picture of, of the afterlife, especially from the Narnia books, is the further up and [01:29:45] further in, there's, there's always deeper to go. There's always higher to go, there's always more. And of course, if there's an eternal, I mean, if there's eternal people just learning about each other will take forever.
[01:29:57] Chris Legg: Um, much less learning about an, an [01:30:00] infinite God who's, who is eternal in both directions. So,
[01:30:06] Stephanie Winn: you know, on that note, that, that reminds me of something sweet I can share to kind of help us wrap up here. Um, that, uh, [01:30:15] I was thinking about what I learned about heaven. In these books by, uh, John Berg. And, uh, for one thing, it's, it sounds amazing to be surrounded with people you love.[01:30:30]
[01:30:30] Stephanie Winn: And, um, and it reminded me of how I was back at, uh, in September. I attended the Gen SPECT conference and it was, um, very compressed timeline. Very busy action packed couple days, but in the span of two or three days, I met [01:30:45] like 200 people that I'd only known online or who knew me online before that. And it was so fun.
[01:30:51] Stephanie Winn: Like that was really the highlight was just, oh, hi. Oh, so great to be you and hugging people and being in, in 3D and, and it was, you know, like a family [01:31:00] reunion of all these people I've worked with online. And, uh, and I, I came back from that remembering, oh yeah, I'm actually, I'm actually an extroverted, bubbly social butterfly.
[01:31:09] Stephanie Winn: I'm just currently living a lifestyle that doesn't support that because of chronic illness and [01:31:15] because of my responsibilities. And, um, and so I, I started really feeling into like the social aspect of heaven and how, uh, earth earthly life feels so lonely in comparison. And so I was at this concert recently, um, favorite musician of [01:31:30] mine who I've been following a long time recently became a Christian.
[01:31:32] Stephanie Winn: And so his albums about becoming a Christian were basically the soundtrack to my becoming a Christian. And as I was at the concert, I thought, um. So all these people, [01:31:45] these are all Nick Maby fans here. I wonder how many of them are also Christians. And I was like, I was like, you know, I'd like to make a new friend tonight.
[01:31:51] Stephanie Winn: I was like, God, can I have a new friend? And it was part of that, just that switching gears into, uh, remembering he's a father who likes to good, give good gifts. And you know what? If heaven is full [01:32:00] of lots of friends, I think, I think, uh, that's an okay thing to ask for. I'm sure he wants that for me. So I was like, can I have a new friend?
[01:32:05] Stephanie Winn: Yes. I met a new friend, actually it was very obvious too. It was like the other woman also in the front row also cheering him on [01:32:15] also, like, shouting, your faith is beautiful, Nick. I was like, okay, she's my friend. I was like, so you love Jesus and you love Nick Mobby. Tell me more. Um, wonderful. Anyway, just a sweet little story from my last couple weeks here.
[01:32:29] Stephanie Winn: [01:32:30] Um, but I wanted to make sure, 'cause we didn't talk about your book. Um, at some point in the conversation I thought we might get into the topic of marriage counseling. 'cause I know that you wrote a book on, on sex and marriage with your son, interestingly enough. Um, yes. And, uh, we, we didn't talk about [01:32:45] that, but, uh, it should at least give you an opportunity here to, to pitch your book.
[01:32:48] Stephanie Winn: Well,
[01:32:48] Chris Legg: yeah. Let me, let me, let me, uh, push the book a little. The um, yeah, if you ever want to, uh, hold a mirror up to your face, write a book about sex and marriage with one of your children. Um,
[01:32:58] Stephanie Winn: I know. I was like, interesting [01:33:00] choice.
[01:33:00] Chris Legg: He, so I. I write, kind of like I speak, which is a little bohemian. It's kinda like this topic, that topic, which is great when I speak and can adjust to my audience.
[01:33:11] Chris Legg: It's not so good in a book form. Uh, so I [01:33:15] needed someone who got me and who could hear me and then put that in a, in an understandable, linear way in a book. And so I tried several, like editors and and writers to help me do that. And they just didn't get me. I mean, they couldn't, [01:33:30] like, they would come back with stuff that was almost oppositional to the exact point I was trying to make.
[01:33:34] Chris Legg: And, um, and then my son who has recent, had, had recently developed a skill in writing, came to me and said, dad, I, I get you. How about if I help you write [01:33:45] it? And so we started this and he had worked for several other organizations, writing for them recently. Sure enough, he gets me. And he was able to put it in a way that makes sense in a linear fashion.
[01:33:58] Chris Legg: Um, it's long for a marriage book. It's [01:34:00] over 300 pages long. But here's why. The goal was to really unpack, um, what sex is meant to be by God's design. And so many, especially Christian marriage books over the last few years, last few [01:34:15] decades, have presented this transactional picture, this caveman picture of marriage that is actually the secular sociological view of marriage that women had certain had, you know, a commodity or two that men wanted.
[01:34:26] Chris Legg: And men have a commodity or two that women want, so they just get [01:34:30] together and trade commodities. Um, and that's kind of the caveman perspective of marriage and the secular sociological view of marriage. And, um, while there may sociologically be something to that, that's not the design that we find in scripture that God [01:34:45] creates, which is of a sacrificial relationship.
[01:34:48] Chris Legg: I am sacrificing what I might want or need in order to get you what you would want and need. And that's my goal is to, one of the ways I worship God is by serving his daughter, my wife. And, [01:35:00] and so to unpack, in order to get to where that, what that looks like in the bedroom, we had to go all the way back and start with this is what marriage is and begin to take away that.
[01:35:10] Chris Legg: 'cause so many, especially women have been so damaged by that transactional [01:35:15] perspective that, you know, most women kind of intuit the question, is this about me or is this just about sex? And so, you know, even a husband who's been married for years, you know, pursues his wife sexually, she can still have that intuition, [01:35:30] wait, is this about me?
[01:35:30] Chris Legg: Or is this just about sex? And, and to understand how men and women engage with that conversation, I think is super redemptive. And that's what I was trying to, we were trying to create. So it ended up being a little long, but I think it had to be, and our fear was if we just [01:35:45] wrote three different books.
[01:35:47] Chris Legg: That people would only buy the sex one and would thereby miss the actual power that was being built through this process. And so anyway, it was, it's, it's been a [01:36:00] such, it was such a work, hard work and yet so cool. And to kind of have, you know, my son able to tell me, Hey, I've, I've been watching all these years and this, this is the way you treat mom.
[01:36:12] Chris Legg: Like, you, you treat her like she's [01:36:15] treasure and you treat her like she's a princess. And like you treat her as though she's valuable for who she is. And, and I've seen that. And so that's, you know, why I wanna be on board with this. And so it's kind of a cool, a weird version of an endorsement [01:36:30] that sounds to have your own child say, I've been watching your marriage and this is legit.
[01:36:34] Chris Legg: And so
[01:36:35] Stephanie Winn: it really sounds like the highest compliment a person could hope to receive in this life is your own child saying, yep, you are congruent. You have integrity. What you, [01:36:45] what you claim to value actually matches your behavior. I mean, I, I think that's probably the best thing any parent could ever hope for.
[01:36:52] Chris Legg: Yeah, I definitely, after he wrote a, for, I wrote a gift to me that he published on his substack called the [01:37:00] Knight from Nacodoches. Um, uh, that was with the article he wrote about me introducing the book, and I was like, yeah, I mean, my eulogy written, I'm, I'm done. You could, you I can go now. I'm, I'm ready whenever because, um, uh, my son has written my [01:37:15] eulogy.
[01:37:15] Chris Legg: And it's, it's, it's just, it really is, it really is amazing. And I wish I had had this early on in marriage. I wish I had had this insight early on. We made some of the same mistakes a lot of people make about this, and, and [01:37:30] unfortunately, a lot of pastors teach it transactionally. Some of the bestselling Christian books on marriage treat sex and provision and whatever it happens to be transactionally.
[01:37:41] Chris Legg: And I, I just hate that. And I think it's been so destructive for women, [01:37:45] especially, I think I would say it's been confusing for men and it's been destructive for women and I think that's part of what's chased women out of the church in the last few years is some of these very mindsets. And, [01:38:00] uh, I think my book and then the Felden books and then a few others are the ones that are hopefully, are trustworthy in presenting things as they actually are biblically and scientifically sound.
[01:38:11] Chris Legg: So yeah, I would love for anybody, it's called Sex and Marriage by [01:38:15] Chris SLA and Mark Legg. And I would love for anybody to go pick it up and then let, gimme feedback. I mean, I'm, I'm all about, I'd love to hear back from people on it once they've gotten a chance to look at it.
[01:38:26] Stephanie Winn: Great. Well, we'll include that link in the show notes.
[01:38:28] Stephanie Winn: Thank you. Yeah. [01:38:30] So, and uh, on that note, where are, where can people find you?
[01:38:34] Chris Legg: Um, probably, gosh, I mean, uh, lathea counseling.com, um, is the counseling center. Um, south spring.org is [01:38:45] the church. Um, Chris, m as in Michael, chris m leg.com is my personal website, and my link to my substack is there as well, or any of these.
[01:38:55] Chris Legg: I'm not hard to find. Uh, I've decided to not try to hide online. I'm going the [01:39:00] zebra route. I'm just gonna mix in with the herd. And so, um, you can just, you can literally just search my name and, and, uh, it's all out there. And I, I would love that. I love when people contact me after something like this and follow up.
[01:39:12] Chris Legg: I've made some close friends with that. New friends, [01:39:15] as you say, um, from these, so,
[01:39:17] Stephanie Winn: and you also have your podcast.
[01:39:19] Chris Legg: Sounds, the Reconstructed Faith Podcast and uh, and again, the plan is to have you on at some point in the near future to talk about some of these things, uh, from a different [01:39:30] perspective, so.
[01:39:30] Stephanie Winn: Sounds great. Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
[01:39:33] Chris Legg: It has been. Thank you.
[01:39:37] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening too. You must be some kind of therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to [01:39:45] rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.
[01:39:56] Stephanie Winn: Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, [01:40:00] half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any [01:40:15] resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below Rain or shine.
[01:40:23] Stephanie Winn: I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. With all [01:40:30] its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:40:45] [01:41:00] world.