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Are single-points of failure sometimes ok? In this episode, we talk about how much redundancy a small company should have.
Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:01.00
Rick
What's up this week Tyler ah
00:03.14
tylerking
I'm at the office normally when we talk I'm at home and it may be you. You may have seen in the news or not that St Louis is flooded. Um, oh yeah, we had the most rain of any day in the history of St Louis
00:10.85
Rick
No I did not wow.
00:19.85
tylerking
A pretty wide margin like 50% more than the last high or something ah three days ago Two days ago and it made national news I guess I don't know I don't read news that involves talking about weather. But that happened again today so I can't get home. No I mean it'll be fine. The route from my office to my house.
00:30.83
Rick
So so what do you are you sleeping there.
00:39.41
tylerking
Is not a place that floods much but like the whole city is just a disaster So ah, by the time we're done recording I think it'll be fine, but like right this second it's a problem our our house has not. You can't tell it's flooding in our house. Ah.
00:46.58
Rick
It is your car above the water or is it in the water.
00:58.25
tylerking
But like my parents neighborhood like right next to it. Yeah, a bunch of cars are like floating around the street. It's well like ah it's kind of cool I write I like went outside my I'm in my private office right now and like half the company's out there just drinking beers talking because no one could go home right now. So it's kind of fun.
01:00.81
Rick
Oh my gosh.
01:13.94
Rick
Ah, that's ah, is it clear skies now or is it still raining nice I Not much busy week. Got some updates related to that but just trying to make it to. Ah.
01:16.55
tylerking
Still raining. But the the worst of it's over. But anyway yeah, kind of kind of wild weather stuff going on with it. What's going on with you. Page related. Yeah.
01:33.67
Rick
Make it through this podcast and then make it through watching Oliver until bedtime and then I will probably crack open a beer myself.
01:38.73
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like you've earned it. Um to yeah I guess let's dive in here I don't know this update I've given it twice before but we had another Ddos once again, someone tried to take our site down by sending a bunch of traffic to it. Um, it's. Seems either the it's the exact same person every time or like I fantasize that there's this like business in a box that someone can buy that's like here are the scripts to Ddos someone and here are some potential targets and we're like on that list because it's always from different phone numbers and email addresses that try to send us the ransom message. But It's always the exact same thing so we are hardening our our defenses against a Ddos right now like.
02:20.72
Rick
Um, do you feel like ah I mean I'm curious like was was fighting or defending against this particular attack easier or less stressful. Um than past ones or is it about the same every time.
02:34.71
tylerking
It gets easier each time. Although so we had the first one was January Six 2021 big day. We missed the whole insurrection fighting the Ddos ah the next one was about a year and some months after so there was a pretty big gap. This none two months after so between the first and second when the none one happened, we're like whatever this might have been another fluke. This isn't like something we need to be ready for after this one with just two months between now we're like we're gonna go in and like it's the the person d dossing us is not very good at it and so defending against it's not that hard so we're like. Writing a special stuff into our code to specifically make this type of ddos easier to defend against the most annoying thing about it is basically they keep hitting certain pages and we just like block traffic to those pages temporarily um users who have those pages Bookmarks just get locked out. Ah, if they like go to our homepage and click login it all works the whole the app works but they have to like get the new link and our users aren very tech savvy so they don't they see like it's not working. They don't think well let me maybe I have a weird url bookmarked and that's the url that's blocked. So um, that's the only difficulties like I had to pull an all nighter earlier this week. Just staying up to email customer when when customers emailed in I'd be like here's the link and they'd be like cool. Great. Thank you? Ah, but if I weren't awake to do that they would go like you know if they're in Europe all day their time not having access to the serum. Yeah.
03:52.82
Rick
Um.
04:00.25
Rick
Now That's ah so noxious. What? Well why do people do this like they have anything better to do.
04:05.50
tylerking
So It's not hard. It's just a little tedious. I mean they're asking us for $5000 in Bitcoin. So I Guess some people pay them maybe but anyway yet another one. Um, how about you? What's your first update.
04:15.00
Rick
Now must work.
04:21.52
Rick
Well I'll start with an update on my week. Um, so last time we talked I have mentioned we were going all in on chambers of commerce I can definitely update on that later in the episode but None other thing I was committing to doing was. Spending more time helping Jd grow the business. Um I have not made much progress on the Seo front I do have a call with the content person tomorrow. So I will have I'm forced to make some progress between now and then and then I'm also going to reach out to an Seo specialist to help me build out the Seo plan. So I'm actually going to.
04:45.78
tylerking
Nice forced to make some.
04:58.30
Rick
Do both the seo um like contractor which I know how to manage and then the content person both external because I'm just not having time to actually do the Seo planning. Um so I'm going to explore doing both on Outsource Basis Chambers were another one and then. The other part was the the third sort of lever was I'm going to start to attending local events and I did None this week already and I've got ah a first one was a panel labs event at a at a brewery in park city. Ah, and it was great. Um.
05:23.50
tylerking
Do this What you do person wants to.
05:33.22
Rick
Got caught up with a lot of people. Um people who want to help and um, one thing that came out of it is. We're going to do a webinar for panel labs members in in ah in October like bright and up enrollment. We already probably going to get that anyway. But because you know we caught up with everyone. It was like easier to get that done.
05:50.67
tylerking
Easier to get the other. The other thing is that.
05:52.74
Rick
Um, the other The other thing is that I I caught up with people who hadn't seen it in a while and so to give give an update to them. You know about what we're doing and then I had 1 prospect that I can pass over to Jd from that. So um, if it was more social I would say than business. Um. But I'm interested to see how I like cascades I saw him done my I need to do my follow up from that event so that's one that was more like just like a beer drinking social gathering. Ah as a partner of panelabs. The one I did today was intense man my god I don't know if I always do this one again. Ah so um.
06:24.57
tylerking
Where is this going.
06:29.82
Rick
You know it's a it's called connect share and I didn't know what I was getting myself into but they basically I don't know man like I don't want to like talk smack because it was like for the right like I think it was really well done for what they're doing but man like it was.
06:33.60
tylerking
I know was you are really hyping this up Rick you'd better deliver a great story here like.
06:47.95
Rick
Eight thirty a m to 11 you know sitting and around a table with 6 people. Um and you basically go around the table and talk about your business and um, it's all local small business people. Um, that are it's like intentional networking. But.
06:49.61
tylerking
You sitting at 6
07:04.83
tylerking
But a long time is it around. That's a lot like end during business hours like.
07:05.55
Rick
So long time to sit around a table during business hours and Andre you know, not only are you doing that. But you're also like the next step the expectation is that everyone's going to meet one on one with each other after this and then we we scheduled before we and started. A come together meeting where you're supposed to come back and explain how you're going to help everyone else grow their business.
07:25.30
tylerking
So is this like a thing. There's like an organization that match makes and you pay them and they put you in touch with these 5 other people.
07:34.44
Rick
Basically you pay a membership fee to be a part of this thing I think I'm not a member so I don't know but you basically once a month come together and you get assigned seated next to 5 people. You don't know. Um you tell the story and then you tell your personal story and then. Everyone is supposed to figure out ways to help you between? Ah, you know usually ah today the the event and then a follow up meeting that you do you schedule for 2 hours connect share I believe it's what's called.
07:58.73
tylerking
Um, what you say this is called Okay, it sounds a lot like I'm spacing on the name but there's some kind of famous like old school small business networking thing that sounds like this where everyone just like passes leads to each other. Basically.
08:14.86
Rick
That's exactly it's like forcely cheering now. Everyone's super nice like there's a guy you know who is a partner at a ccfo outsourcing service. There's a you know a learning management. Um, you know business development guy. None 1 woman had as an it firm. Another woman isn't a kind of executive at a a payments company and then I forget what the other one. Oh the other one's a consultant so it's like very similar like services. Um, but man like the thing the thing that I think like what what I told j d was I have to like. Because I did this I now feel like committed to doing like another 4 hours of work with this that I don't have um because I was a guest and it's kind of reciprocation. It feels weird not to show up to the followup meeting but what what I what I told Jd and what I'm sort of realizing is that networking is great but like it cascades like.
08:50.93
tylerking
Yeah, um.
09:06.69
Rick
Part of it. It works. It's great. It leads to other conversations and opportunities that sort of thing but I don't have time for those. So so if I were full time like my my conclusion of sort of this week is if I were full time on leg up health these types of events would be like totally like I should be doing them all day every day and just.
09:11.83
tylerking
Yeah, so.
09:25.93
Rick
You know, kind of funneling stuff to Jd based on what is worth his time versus more more more my time and then you repeat all all in it. It will snowball like crazy. But I don't have that time and so what ends up happening is this stuff just stresses me out and so I I probably I'm gonna stop. Doing this and I'm going to focus on the things that I like to do with a little bit of time that I have he is virtual um and even him like our like yes if you were here. It would be good use of his time but there are more precise things for him to do too. Um.
09:48.53
tylerking
Um, could J D be doing This are.
10:03.60
Rick
Um, you know? For example, like None part of the pitch is like tell people how to um, help you and what I realized asking for help was we generally ask for help in 2 ways like we say hey if you know a consumer who buys their own marketplace. Plan in Utah we'd love an introduction or if you know a small business owner who doesn't offer employees benefits their employees. We'd love an introduction those are actually pretty big ass like it's kind of weird to introduce consumers. Ah you know, especially around health insurance and then it's it's ah everyone wants to talk to a small business owner like it's like there.
10:31.10
tylerking
Yeah, on insurance.
10:41.36
Rick
Like that's a really hard ask too and so exactly so so what we realized is that like the None thing that I asked for a day that actually got me the most sort of bang for my buck was we want to partner with other service providers who talk to small business owners and then like you know oh you should talk to this person. You should talk to this person. You should talk to this person.
10:41.92
tylerking
Really important to right? Yeah, that's the same person I Want to talk to. So.
10:54.28
tylerking
Not dispersion.
10:59.63
Rick
So there was learning that came out of trying to explain this in person and getting real-time feedback from a bunch of people and but that's but Jd can do that like he can reach out to partners potential partners without being in person. So I just don't think it's worth.
11:09.51
tylerking
Yeah I don't think it's worth.
11:14.49
Rick
At this stage us and like investing in it. Um, given the other more precise ah opportunities we have to create a snowball. So I'm going to probably back off of it. Um, but anyway I'm exhausted from it and I I feel obligated now to have a 30 minute meeting with it each person so that's None people times 30 minutes
11:25.27
tylerking
But I'm exhausting.
11:34.47
Rick
Or no 5 people times 30 minutes and then a 2 hour recap session where and then I also have to figure out how I'm gonna help these people that's just this yeah every month but I yeah yes yep, which would be great if that was my full time focus. But I just I can't like no.
11:36.11
tylerking
Wow And that's every month you're expected to do that like if you were a member you'd be doing that every month Wow but be great. This is the rare you hear a lot about like we ran an experiment and it worked so we're going to do it and you hear a lot about we ran Experiment. It didn't work so we're not going to do it. This is a more nuanced one where we ran experiment it works but it drained me and so we're not going to do a thing that does work.
11:54.50
Rick
Yeah.
12:06.48
Rick
Right now. Yeah.
12:08.99
tylerking
Right now? Yeah, um, by the way B and I is the one I've heard of like that. Are you familiar with them. Yeah, the Letter B the letter in the letter I In case anyone like.
12:14.61
Rick
I've heard about it too. Yeah, it sounds like it's very similar to that and it it was well done like it was. It was good like I met some really nice people today and I don't want to say that I didn't enjoy meeting those people. It's just I don't have the it's just a distraction right now.
12:27.72
tylerking
Yeah, well, it's you tried it you you did a thing that I wouldn't try just because like I would be terrified but here's Tyler.
12:31.99
Rick
Yeah. But here's the thing Tyler what I should admit to myself like I'm going to follow through on this if it leads to like None clients. You'd better. Damn right? I'm going to do it again. But it's I just I don't see it I think it's much longer term like a longer. It requires.
12:45.24
tylerking
Better deal right? over doing yeah right? and you should absolutely don't see.
12:56.28
Rick
Kind of like ah you know when you're trying to start a car by pulling the clutch like you've got to have some momentum in order for the car to start I don't have the time to invest the necessary like ah energy into this to get the momentum necessary to really get it jump started.
13:05.70
tylerking
Yeah, it does strike me as a type of thing. Also though that probably the window where it makes sense will close where there's a lot of stuff with less knowing Sam where it's like in the early days you get you fight for every customer you can get. And you know do things that don't scale like this is classic startup advice and there comes a point where like yeah I could get None customer by doing this thing and you know we get None new customers a month I'm not like it just doesn't make sense anymore and this strikes me as kind of that early stage. Fighting and crying to get each person but not the thing that you use to scale up a business. Yeah, um so I think I'm ending my newsletter. But yeah I've already like written and scheduled ah an email to go out July first. So it's.
13:40.15
Rick
Yeah, that agreed.
13:46.90
Rick
Oh no, that's sad.
13:57.26
tylerking
Quasi done but I talked about this I don't know a couple months ago maybe I asked your feedback on it and you kind of suggested sticking with it and um I basically I thought I was going to take your advice. The realities I didn't actually I waited is all I did I didn't actually write any content since we talked which I took is a sign that like. If. It's this much of a chore for me to write I probably shouldn't um, but yeah, yeah, so what? I what I realized you know this about me I'm a very like momentum driven person like sometimes I kind of get inspired to do something like write blog posts and I could.
14:19.72
Rick
Yep, are you gonna leave your website up.
14:32.00
tylerking
Like when I started less annoyingbusiness. Dot com is kind of like where I'm putting this content when I started that site I think I put out like 25 blog posts in a week or something like that now that was ah a special push but like when I feel motivated I can get a lot done. But then I go through periods where I'll I'll go a few months where I don't want to write anything and that doesn't. Work with a newsletter very well, right? It's like I can either only send the newsletter when I have something new to share in which case you're getting an email from me once every three months which I don't think that's a great experience or I send an email all the time with nothing new in it and it still takes time to like send the like to write up the newsletter. So. I figured I want a place where I can write new stuff I'll post that stuff on Twitter so people can see it but the newsletter format I don't think fits with the schedule that I want. Yeah.
15:20.12
Rick
Yeah, and um, oh I I would push back just a little bit on getting rid of like email altogether like I For example, would love to be notified when you post something New. Um I would like I don't want necessarily I don't need a newsletter but I don't want. Like I feel like I'm getting something taken away from me um a little bit when you say like you you aren't going to notify me anymore that you post a new content.
15:44.26
tylerking
Yeah I guess I could do that? Um I don't know well yeah that if it were free and I could just email people. But yeah I'm paying eighty bucks a month for the newsletter right now and I should say like when I was putting when I was writing a blog post a week.
15:47.64
Rick
You just want to get rid of convert kit. Don't you and save some money.
16:02.13
tylerking
I was it never took off I only have 210 or something newsletter subscribers like it's very clear to me if you wanted to make this work. You could make it work like you being the royal you? Um I did some reflecting and realized like I don't want to make this work.
16:11.24
Rick
Um. Ah.
16:19.24
tylerking
Ah, like I literally went through my Twitter the people I follow on Twitter and I looked at all then I kind of asked myself the question who do I admire who do I like following the most and what are like what's their relationship with content and what I realize is all the people who are trying I don't like following as much you know I I like the authentic.
16:33.35
Rick
Um.
16:38.90
tylerking
I'm interested in this I'm sharing what's on my mind with no real other purpose behind it. There's like I think we all have this like vain ego maniac in our head for some of us. It's bigger for some of us. It's smaller, but everyone has a little part of you that's like it would be cool to have a huge following right? and I have that. Which was part of what was inspiring this but then I looked at I'm like this would not make me happier in any way I would get nothing out of having None newsletter subscribers if anything I might be less happy with that. So I was just like like why am I doing this.
17:09.28
Rick
Um, ah, that's a great decision then.
17:16.44
tylerking
Yeah, um, a quick quick thing I will comment or I just wrote down a few like as I was taking the site down I like looked in a few things and noticed some things. Um one is like the biggest success I had I've been doing this for a year and a half or something I had None Youtube video that got like. 8000 views which in the grand scheme of things is not that much like people who are actually successful on Youtube get a lot more but it seems to be ramping up still um, it's just it's literally like how to set up mx records for Google Workspace it's just like some random technical How to do this. So a I think there is some demand for like answering small business tech questions. Um, and b if I were to change my mind and be like maybe I do want a following maybe I do want to like for content to be more serious I might just go to Youtube and try to do that directly because this video got. Decent traction compared to everything else and I didn't promote it at all. Ah, that's None thing I took away from that have you done any video stuff before.
18:18.42
Rick
I haven't um but it makes sense that ah that your target audience would would value that.
18:26.50
tylerking
Um, I don't even know if it's my target audience like the hard part about is how do you turn that into a Cr M customer. Yeah.
18:31.85
Rick
Yeah, small small business low low techch ah savvy small business people like it seems like Youtube would be a great place for them like like and the content that they'd be searching for is probably not the content that the people.
18:40.88
tylerking
Yeah, the content.
18:49.67
Rick
That spend a lot of time on Youtube creating content or creating.
18:50.86
tylerking
Yeah, well and I just you know as with all marketing things like you get a channel and it gets saturated I think Youtube despite being very competitive might the impression I get is there's less competition relative to the volume than there is on Google search. Like I think Youtube is a has more low hanging fruit like from a distribution standpoint than Seo probably it doesn't matter because I'm not like I can't turn that person into a customer. So I don't care about it. But if all I was trying to do is build an audience I think that looks like the best way to do it in my opinion.
19:25.00
Rick
It's interesting. Yeah, and I'm well I just typed in Utah health insurance and there's like nothing to compete with that's worthwhile here.
19:29.40
tylerking
Yeah, and like what None reason I've stayed away from videos is like if you look at you know the the top youtubers they have like really high production value and all that this video I made was literally. It was a loom video of me sharing my screen clicking around. Ah, google workspace I even like messed it up because you you can't this particular thing once you do it, you can't go back and do it again. So I was like all right I'm doing this live because I only get one shot at this. Ah it was really unpolished and I got. 20 comments being like thank you so much. This is amazing like I've looked everywhere for this. So yeah I I think there's an opportunity out there. Um, my final thought on it is it did occur to me like if lessening serum ever ended up in a position where we were just.
20:00.23
Rick
Um I Love it.
20:13.24
tylerking
We had really good margins and we were happy with where we are and like we could afford to kind of hire people that maybe aren't like essential to the business but that just are doing things we like hiring a full time person to just do small business tech tips I would love to do that I don't think there's a business case for it. But like I think like like indirectly there is I think we could get. Lots and lots of traffic if we had someone spending their time on that I'm just not that person I don't have time for it I think it's too indirect like maybe 10 years from now. There's like a little bit of ah roi. It definitely provides value to the world.
20:36.42
Rick
Why don't you hire that person.
20:49.64
tylerking
I Don't think we have a good way of capturing that value in a way that pays that person's salary. That's my theory on it. But I would I just think like I would feel really good I would feel it would be a rewarding thing to create for the world because I talk to my customers and I know they need this type of advice. So.
20:51.53
Rick
Um.
21:08.91
tylerking
Ah, yeah, that's it on that tell me about chambers of Commerce up correct.
21:09.40
Rick
Rest in peace wait lessnoying business Dot Com is not going away just to to recap just your newsletter so rest in peace less annoying business newsletter Hello like the future is is still bright for less knowing business. The entity.
21:18.33
tylerking
Um, yes. The future is still there. But.
21:28.85
Rick
Ah, well, that's we've joined all the chambers. Um, and so when added benefit I didn't think about it was we get inbound links from all of the chambers and our logo on them. So for seo it's actually helping us didn't even consider that but already ah JD's
21:29.74
tylerking
Yeah, ah yeah, tell me about tell me about your chamber of Commerce Update All the chambers.
21:48.52
Rick
Working through the member list and he's actually already found that the ah because the member list like help him find business small business people. It's actually more efficient than just looking for small business people online so he's basically shifted all of his prospecting efforts to working through the chamber of commerce list. Which is great. Um, and so it's going. Well we we pulled the trigger and it's a huge focus. We also got our none google review this week which um, we have now none star Google reviews we're asking.
22:13.56
tylerking
Um, cool, um wow are you asking for that or that's just happening organically. Okay, why'd you pick Google versus say Facebook or.
22:26.46
Rick
But you please leave us a review.
22:31.91
tylerking
I assume there's not like a g 2 captera type of review system for you? yeah.
22:34.16
Rick
Yeah Google we're just primarily because it serves 2 purposes. It helps with Seo it validates us in Google's eyes as a real business when someone types in health insurance in Utah and then I I personally it's more of a personal thing like I use Google reviews. Ah, for.
22:49.83
tylerking
Um, yeah, that's fair.
22:53.61
Rick
This type of thing. Um, so I'm making the assumption that other people for for health insurance are going to go there but there is like trust pilot is another one and Facebook is another one but I think Google is the right place to start to sort of build up like just.
22:59.81
tylerking
Right.
23:09.46
Rick
1 1 proof point of our brand being real and then also getting some Seo benefits.
23:12.23
tylerking
Cool that sounds good So you've got the chamber of Commerce stuff. But so far it sounds like the impact is instead of J D going out and finding leads the old like the hard way. You've got a list to work off of Tbd on.
23:27.25
Rick
Yep.
23:29.97
tylerking
Do they convert better or anything like that.
23:33.21
Rick
Nope to beat Tbd and then there's ah I mean a plethora of events for me to attend in person if I want to probably not going to but we'll see like I mean I could see myself going to a quick lunch. Um, but like I think like this type.
23:37.38
tylerking
Um, but you're not right.
23:47.38
Rick
The connect share level of metworking is is not for me right now I was great. Yeah, totally.
23:48.94
tylerking
Okay, but ah like what you did at Pando Labs you could do that once a week you think okay because yeah I'd be ashamed to like do all like do all like chamber commerces and then be like at the same time I'm not doing any events that would be a mismatch. Okay.
24:01.98
Rick
No, that'll be terrible I'm doing I'm doing a similar were members of the you utah independent business coalition which is not a chamber. It's more of association like Pando I'm doing a cocktail hour with them next next thursday and that'll be fine.
24:16.40
tylerking
Um, pull like it one of things.
24:19.46
Rick
Um, one other experiment that we've been running I wanted to update on is another growth experiment. Just so everyone's aware like Jd and I have this combine board and notion and we have ah ah like 10 experiments growth experiments. We're running right now ranging from getting reviews to joining chambers to partner outreach like trying to grab grab referral partners. To networking events in person like all these things um one one experiment that he's trying is like gifting is the theme is gifting things to potential prospects and the thing he tried last week ah or maybe it was two weeks ago I don't remember um was offering. He has now a list of profiles that he knows has. Um, they're an individual policy and with health insurance laws. You can't rebate. You can't say like make me the agent and I'll give you twenty five bucks but with leg up health we can say create your account and add your policy. You don't have to make us the agent. We'll give you twenty five bucks and we did that and ah 3 people.
25:08.76
tylerking
Right here now policy.
25:18.49
Rick
Ah, created an account and 3 people added their policy and 3 people made us the agent so $75 got us 3 clients now we had 1 backfire um in that like this 1 person signed up and then we think that her current she had a current agent. We think that her current agent emailed her and said.
25:21.43
tylerking
Wow dollars.
25:37.82
Rick
What the heck? um and she was like oh I didn't mean to do this like how do I reverse it and so we're working through like we can't really reverse it like we can only help the other agent help her help her current previous agent. Get her back? Um, but so so one of the learnings we had was.
25:48.85
tylerking
Right? switch back. So.
25:55.44
Rick
Need to have two tracks. Um, yeah, there's sort of people with marketplace plans. But within that people with Marketplace Paceplace plans who have an existing agent and those who don't the the ones that don't It's like a no brainer like let's get them you know, but the ones that do like there's There's a little bit of a.
26:06.90
tylerking
Um.
26:11.42
Rick
Ah, nuance there that we need to be sensitive to um, we might like maybe not incentivize like trying to incentivize that from ah another broker just focusing on ones that don't have agents or you know saying hey like.
26:11.48
tylerking
What do you do about that. How could you be sensitive about that because like ultimately you are trying to put an end to the other agent you might like maybe not.
26:28.39
Rick
Just so you know your broker is going to get notice of if you have an existing agent. Yeah, preparing them for it So that there's not this like weird reaction. Um, but anyway that's that's pretty cool experiment I think.
26:31.87
tylerking
Hearing yeah that makes sense I spring yeah, that's great I might say like wait for it to happen twice before you overreact to it like right now you could say 33% of people have had a problem or you could say.
26:50.50
Rick
And.
26:50.63
tylerking
1 person has had a problem. It's hard to know what like what percent actually would.
26:56.80
Rick
I am sensitive to this. It's a good point. You're making I am sensitive to this because when you when Brokers get competed with in their eyes Unfairly they file complaints for the department of insurance and I don't want to deal with that because I had to deal with that all the time same benefits. Um.
27:08.56
tylerking
Yeah.
27:14.58
Rick
And so like that's why I'm probably reacting to it. There is like some some annoying annoyance risk here like regulatory not regulatory for us but like dealing with stuff like getting a notice in the mail and having to go like talk to the department ventures but like no, we're not doing what you think we're doing like um, but but ah.
27:15.34
tylerking
That's why Okay, there is.
27:24.99
tylerking
Stop right now.
27:34.39
Rick
So so there is like I'm not sure that I want to be an aggressive competitor to existing agents right now and so that's I think more the question that I'm having.
27:43.55
tylerking
Gotcha cool. So you said I mean 3 for 3 or maybe 2 for 3 but who who were who is the pool of people you marketed this to.
27:52.52
Rick
That's a good question I need to check with Jd on the stats I'll take that as the next step I don't jade if you're listening I don't I don't have any idea how many like what our conversion rate was on offer like I guess is less than None people were offered this and 3 people I think.
27:59.40
tylerking
Yeah, okay, because like you hear that and you're like great. You've got your model. Go do it over and over and over again. But yeah, but I don't know Yeah cool. Yeah I'd love an update on that right? like.
28:09.85
Rick
I think um, but you know it but I don't know I'll have to ask j d and find out. Um, but that's cool, right? Like we got 3 a ors.
28:18.91
tylerking
Yeah, it's very as you were talking. Well None of all, yes, Huge Success. That's great Congrats as you were talking I was like what's stopping every agent from coming up with something that you can give like switch the rebate to be like come to my house for dinner. And we'll we'll move you over but I'm giving you the $25 for coming to dinner not for switching to make me your broker. It sounds like you've got a great thing here but I'm also wondering why everyone doesn't do this I don't think.
28:42.51
Rick
Um I don't think anyone has the value proposition that we have I mean you got to remember like we're coming in and saying we're focused on service not sales like with a consumer. No one's doing this I mean are competitions focused on selling someone. Ah.
28:45.92
tylerking
Yeah, remember like having.
28:54.53
tylerking
With the consumer doing right? Are there competitions.
29:00.71
Rick
You know a policy who doesn't have a policy. They're not focused on serving someone who doesn't have an agent that already has a policy.
29:01.88
tylerking
Um, man it's never as good as it seems and I know this is going to fall apart somehow just because that's how the world works but that's that's very exciting. That's cool.
29:10.56
Rick
Um, yeah, um, that's all I got on on sort of experiment ah growth experiment updates but I thought I'd share those kind of ah in a row.
29:18.46
tylerking
Yeah, cool. That's great. Um I was having a conversation recently with Robert who's kind of like our tech lead slash the manager of the developers. Um, and so we have a sabbatical policy lessoning serum where. Basically every 3 years a person can take six weeks paid off or None like an additional None unpaid if they want so up to None um, so he's he's just kind of thinking like okay I might take None soon What do we do ah during that sabbatical like in terms of. Right now. A lot of things go through him. He does the final pull request and he deploys code and stuff like that and so it's just kind of talking about six weeks without him how would things operate which also because he's going to take a sabbatical probably which he's done one before although he wasn't as.
30:01.53
Rick
Um, why? why are you having that conversation. Oh.
30:12.27
tylerking
Officially the manager at that like you he had an important role at the time but not like as critical as it is now. Um, it also led to a conversation about like what if I took a sabbatical. It's a fun exercise. Forget the sabbatical thing if you're gone for six weeks if any 1 person at the company's gone for six weeks like what do you do.
30:15.71
Rick
Um.
30:30.33
tylerking
It's a harder question than what if someone quits because if someone quits it's like we replace you right? If someone's gone for six weeks like we're not hiring a replacement for you but we it's long enough that we can't necessarily just yes or so this is what this led to there's 2 interesting.
30:39.41
Rick
We have to have redundancy.
30:47.60
Rick
No sabbaticals allowed? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:48.70
tylerking
Things that came out of this conversation. No sabbtics a lot that's where we ended up no vacation either. No weekends. Um, like ok None is like ah I think having redundancies and by that I mean having multiple people who can do things. There's not a single like. Ah, point of failure I think people want that more than is rational at a small business because it seems obvious like if a person if Robert's the only one who can deploy code of course None people need to be able to deploy code. But the reality is like. You know we only have six developers. It's not like we have like a thousand deploys going on every day we could stop it for a week. No, but we just say okay for a week we're not going to deploy code for six weeks is harder. But. I've I already came into this discussion already thinking people want more redundancy than makes sense. There's huge inefficiencies in creating redundancies that I think are often not worth the trade off none of all, what do you think about that.
31:46.57
Rick
This is ah this takes me straight to windfall's core value of leverage over optimization and like redundancy is is is um Redundancy is optimizing something um and the question is for what like at the end of the day. It's peace of mind and.
31:52.51
tylerking
Um, yeah.
32:01.49
tylerking
Questions.
32:05.82
Rick
Ah, you know opportunity caught like potential like risk like risk mitigation. So like what I don't know I think it totally depends on what you're ah like the situation. Yeah.
32:14.10
tylerking
Of course of course, but the leverage over optimisim like Leverage is a good word because like when you say like should we have multiple people who can do this. The easy answer is yes but what's unspoken is well what are you given up for that and leverage right? like.
32:26.91
Rick
Um.
32:29.47
tylerking
You can move a lot faster if everyone just does their own like if you don't have to do everything twice? Basically um so like an example of this. Ah I'm actually surprised if anyone's building a team and hasn't managed anyone before employees are way more worried about shit than I expected and what I mean by that is like I kind of think of it like.
32:33.70
Rick
E.
32:48.63
tylerking
It's my job to worry about shit. You don't need to worry about it but people regularly have come to me like what if bracken gets hit by a bus. What if Robert gets hit by a bus. What if I get hit by a bus um and like the answer is always like oh yeah I mean it would suck that the injury to you would suck I'd feel bad about that. But aside from that we'd figure it out my answers always just we'd we'd figure it out. Like do you have any passwords that I don't have access to no then we'd figure it out and they're always like but we need a plan and I'm like well you probably won't get hit by a bus I don't think we need a plan. This is this conversation has happened to me like many times throughout the company and I still stand by. You don't need a plan for the most part. Ah, but this especially came up with the six week thing that I don't want to say any decisions were made but Robert and I were kind of like yeah we could go six weeks just without any of it.
33:34.23
Rick
So just take the sabbatical and see what needs to be done and you'll jump in and do it is that what you decided? yeah.
33:37.32
tylerking
Yeah, exactly and it's not like I can't deploy I have the ability to play code I just don't but we just be like let's give everyone a bunch of big projects to work on that aren't like we're not like where they're not going to get finished really quickly. We'll still do bug fixes and stuff like that. That's no problem but like. Let's just plan on having a six week period that doesn't have like a None deploys and code reviews and then Robert can do it when he gets back and like I think that would work fine. Yeah um I think it's probably the right answer is in between. It's like let's get some redundancy but not try to make it so that the comp the team is always running.
34:01.31
Rick
That's ah, that's ah, that's one option.
34:13.19
tylerking
As if Robert might be gone at any moment. Um, but then we also talked about me what if I was gone and to my delight it was like oh no problem at all like he was like long term like without you who's setting the product road like the product strategy and who's like. You know making culture like there's stuff I do but none of it needs to happen in the next six weeks and I was ah I was really happy to hear that. Yeah I think so although maybe you could say like then we need to do the same thing for him and it trickles all the way down.
34:39.91
Rick
That means you're doing your job. Well.
34:47.75
Rick
Yeah, let's talk about that. That's where I was going to is like does I mean is is this ah indicator that Robert isn't developing you know his team. Ah you know and he's not doing his job to the fullest.
35:02.83
tylerking
So I don't think so um or let me let let mephrase I don't think there's that difference between me and him the reason me being gone is not that other people are doing what I'm doing. The reason is that the things I'm doing are bigger picture in longer term whereas Robert is more of a day-to-day operator. Um, no one else we don't I don't have backups for what I'm doing but this gets back to what I delegated the day to day stuff. But it's not like someone else is also doing like product vision thinking without me, you know.
35:26.54
Rick
But you but but technically you've delegated those. You've trained other people to yeah yeah. Know yeah, you're eating it. Yeah exactly but wouldn't it be nice like if there was ah so Robert had some you know some someone that I guess I've just going like it doesn't seem like it's that expensive to have someone who who can. Who who can do like the things that need to get done in order to continue to operate for six weeks
35:56.67
tylerking
Um, it's not. It's not that expensive, but there's 2 things and I again I want to reiterate like we absolutely can do code reviews and do play code with our Robert the question is should we like should we try a yeah, it makes everyone else less productive.
36:09.38
Rick
Yeah.
36:16.27
tylerking
And B Robert's really good at it. That's the other side of it is like when you have redundancies. Normally you had the best person on a task and now you're adding the second best person and there is oftentimes a big gap between the the best and the second best and I don't mean overall, every developer has their own strengths and weaknesses Robert is fantastic. And multitasking and just like churning through this admin work in a way that no one else on the team is.
36:38.17
Rick
Yeah, and but there's also this other piece of like there's there's an opportunity for someone else like that's being taken like not given I won't say it's being taken away that I just feels wrong to me I think that's ultimately my stop. The thing that makes my stomach feel weird here is like if you had done that Robert wouldn't.
36:46.60
tylerking
Like right.
36:57.83
Rick
You know you know have the opportunities that he's having right now and if don't you want that to cascade through the organization.
37:04.31
tylerking
I Want to create opportunities for people but not at the costs not at the I don't think a good a well oiled machine has everybody on the team being able to perform every single job function at the company I think that is like. Not how any effective organization is run and that's the natural conclusion of what you're saying I think well well, but ok, but the same logic you're still depriving everyone else of that opportunity then right.
37:25.54
Rick
Um, I'm not saying everyone um, but I think like like 1 person like who's who's I don't know.
37:40.16
Rick
Yeah, it's fair. Um.
37:42.10
tylerking
Yeah, like at some point you're either saying everyone's getting this opportunity or we're we're basing it off What's of what's right for the company and not.
37:47.40
Rick
No, you're you're hundred percent right like I mean I do this all the time like I have to pick I can't I can't sit down with everyone at the company and teach them something I have to like pick you know someone who I'm going to like invest time in so that they can do something similar you know and it's yeah you can't you.
37:56.98
tylerking
Um, just. Yeah, if.
38:06.45
Rick
It's hard to spread this around ah multiple people know? yeah.
38:06.54
tylerking
Hard surprise. It is possible. 2 is a better number than one like there. There's some arbitrary number you're picking and I've picked one. It's possible to and like thinking about it. A lot of stuff Robert does 1 person can like someone can do most of it. But it's not None person that can do all of it. So like. Cam does bug fix triage with Robert um, you know someone else might get more involved in code reviews with Robert like.
38:29.37
Rick
I think I'm coming full circle to like the the core question which is like how much redundancy is necessary and I think like you want to avoid single points of failure on critical task and like deploying code is a critical task and what it sounds like is it's not a single point of failure because you can do that? Um, and so.
38:34.96
tylerking
Yeah I think like.
38:44.96
tylerking
Um, so.
38:48.72
Rick
It's a non-issue. But if you couldn't do it and Robert was the only person who could do it that would be more of a problem for me I guess.
38:52.70
tylerking
Yeah that's although even that I totally agree with that. But let's break. There's different types of things None is like this thing happens every day like deploying code. Another one is like this only happens in an emergency or this only happens once a year or something in that case, it's like. So like there's a lot of stuff brack and my co-founder knows how to do that I don't know how to do but like I have all the passwords right? I can get in if I need to if he gets hit by a bus. It's like okay I have six months to figure this out. You know it's not like everything shuts down immediately. So I do think it's like for that it's ok, it's okay. It's not just okay, it is necessary for some things to be a single point of failure as long as you have the ability to catch up and figure it out. It's not okay to have a single point of failure where like if the person gets hit by a bus. You have absolutely no way of catching up and figuring it out yourself. So all right.
39:48.57
Rick
So you're not, You're basic. It sounds like you're landing on letting him go on vacation and come back and it's like sort of like pause deployments and okay good.
39:48.92
tylerking
Um, cool.
39:56.53
tylerking
Um, probably we're going to do something in between like some people on the team are like every like every single person should be able to do this and I don't agree with that. But I think we're probably going to say is like so I can I can deploy code I'm not as good as I once was at reviewing code so we're probably going to say is for low stakes.
40:03.71
Rick
A.
40:16.37
tylerking
Things or high urgency things like a bug fix someone else will review it I will work with them to deploy it. We will get it deployed. We'll probably ship stuff a couple times a week instead of multiple times a day. Um the stuff that doesn't have any time sensitivity to it. We'll just save that for Robert because he's. Much better at this than I am.
40:33.79
Rick
The only problem is ah there there is real risk and Robert going wherever he goes on a sabbatical and saying you know what? this is pretty damn nice I'm done. Yeah yeah, um so I have an insight.
40:42.88
tylerking
Ah, yeah, so again, we're back to no sabbaticals. Ok, we really went full circle there. But. Insight switching subject I Have we learned this.
40:52.91
Rick
Ah, switching subjects that I I we learned this I can't remember what what Jd and I were talking about. Um it was it was this ah gifting thing. Um, where like he said like this is great and he was like ah but I was having a rough day and we only had three and. I realized that I had many like hypotheses around you know what success would be for this experiment and None's amazing given that I only said to 25 I don't remember how many sent to but it was like in the context of like None's amazing. One would have been amazing like um and and what I realized was like I just.
41:15.50
tylerking
Experiment. He's amazing given that I always say I'll remember yeah in the context of like.
41:28.64
Rick
Became clear to me that I think a lot of people are scared but of the unknown um and you know oftentimes like that that fear becomes even worse when you don't have a baseline to like like measure against even if the Baseline is completely like a finger in the wind.
41:31.69
tylerking
Love you? Yeah, you know oftentimes like.
41:48.40
Rick
And so I Just my insight is this like if you're like traversing into some sort of unexplored space and in there you don't know taking like taking the time to just make a guess at what might happen making some intentional assumptions will. Reduce your fear and like actually help you get going and I like I Just I think I do this is something I do very naturally over time because I've learned it through lots and lots of repetition. But I do think it's ah it's a hack to sort of break through um, scary. Scary unknowns.
42:26.51
tylerking
Um, interesting I'm not sure like fear it I'm trying to connect to my head fear with not having a goal what? But what if your goals just totally wrong.
42:38.81
Rick
Um, it's essentially having a goal like let's just say you want to like if I do this I think this will happen like that's all I'm saying to do versus like just saying like I'm scared about doing this I'm scared about doing this like what's what's that. What.
42:41.36
tylerking
Like a or or like let's just say you want to like.
42:48.40
tylerking
100 like that's 1 thing. Okay so like just saying like.
42:55.37
Rick
If I go do this? What will what good will happen. What bad will happen and what do I think the outcome will be like that's all I'm saying I don't think a lot of people like intentionally think through those things and they get stuck in this whirlwind.
42:56.83
tylerking
Will happen when that will happen and what like that's None thing. Yeah I especially like the I especially like the what bad will happen. Um I talked to various people about various things that they're stressing out about and when you just say like what's the consequence of this going wrong and then it's always like oh nothing.
43:20.22
Rick
Yep, and then what's the upside right? and then you go I don't know like worst case like no one signs up for this gift. You know $25 gift card and it's a failure. Best case we get 3 clients. That's pretty awesome.
43:20.71
tylerking
Yeah, what's the upside.
43:31.15
tylerking
It's a failure. Yeah that's awesome. Well here's ah, an example of this that works the other way. Um like it's flipping what you're saying a little bit but I think it's it's supporting your point I was talking to None of Shelley's friends was applying for 2 jobs. Ah. Got it the first one she was. She's a professor was an adjunct professor at one university and then got like a job offer. She really liked at a different one and then was like asking me like you're a business dude should I like go back and negotiate for more or something at the None one or should I just take this offer from the second one. It's like what's the upside of negotiating with the first one like don't you want the job at the None one and then she's like oh yeah, there's absolutely no upside in doing that kind of the same thing you're talking about but like yeah sometimes when you do look at the upside you're like oh I shouldn't be doing the shit at all. Yeah.
44:22.12
Rick
Speaking speaking of that. Ah today um I mean we we basically tried to talk someone out of taking an offer and I won't say what company it was with like but like it was like the person basically was like.
44:26.94
tylerking
All right.
44:40.82
Rick
Having None thoughts about joining the company. It's like we don't want you like if you have None thoughts like we need people who are fully committed and like you shouldn't take this job like please don't.
44:43.98
tylerking
Um, yeah, did you see ah like at Facebook the ah the like thing that leaked from their all hands meeting today. So as I understand it.
44:56.66
Rick
I Did tell me remind me what it was.
45:01.82
tylerking
A lot of tech companies are like having harsh realities right? like it's you know we're probably entering a recession. They're doing layoffs and stuff Facebook didn't do last but they none hiring so there's an all hands and Mark Zuckerberg my understanding is he starts it with being like shit's getting real. This is serious. We need to buckle down work hard like this is not going to be a pleasant phase and the none question. Which some people I've seen suspect it was planted by Facebook so that he could have a good scapegoat. But None question was like ah you you introduced like additional vacation days called meta days in 2020 with the pandemic. Do. We still get those this year and apparently it was just like. Are you not fucking listening to me like this is like that's your question. Ah yeah I don't I mean it was like a leak from I don't I don't know the exact words he said but the the impression you get from reading about it is he just it was like you are totally missing the tone right now which is like.
45:43.17
Rick
That's what he reacted like.
45:56.53
tylerking
The days of it's all about you you you know, just what? what are the benefits you're getting being the top thing your on your mind is like. That's not the tone right now.
46:04.60
Rick
Yeah, it's It's really interesting. Um, people have trouble like understanding that that is so that can change at an organization while you're at it ah and two like it is an important like picking the right atmosphere like going into a company.
46:13.64
tylerking
All your right into like.
46:22.39
Rick
That is on fire and expecting to not have a job that is on fire is stupid like so it's it's in the job. It's in the job you know, sort of search process. But it's also like things change and like expecting like. The your job to stay like cushy when the company's not Cushy. You know is is stupid.
46:44.76
tylerking
Right? Yes, it's I think it's also though the company could probably do more to like make those expectations clear I'm going to give the dumbest example ever of this but this just happened today. So it's fresh in my mind I was in a meeting with a couple people and like this isn't what we were talking about, but it came up like someone's like. We we're planning what to do at the office because we're doing like a redesign of it and someone's like is there anywhere we could like have a a stretching room like a yoga room and I was like we have 3 empty private offices right? now just go in there and stretch like you don't need my permission to go stretch in there. Um, and then and. Everyone was like fuck. Yeah, like let's put a yoga mat in there and then we have a yoga room and I was like just to be clear that will be someone's office one day but until that's someone's office. Go do all the yoga you want? Um, but I do think it's valuable to say that and probably you need to keep saying it because like None ars from now people are going to think. That's the yogre room and I need to keep saying that is an office that is currently unoccupied.
47:45.54
Rick
I think so I think you're right? Um I think 1 thing that that I think organizations get scared about doing is being real and I think like what it sounds like Mark Zuckerberg did it was like he was really real but like he didn't get like the the person did not like register like.
47:52.23
tylerking
I Think like sounds like.
48:03.60
Rick
And reward him for his his realness.
48:04.31
tylerking
Yeah, well I mean again I think it's very possible that this with this entire thing was them trying to scare employees. But yes, if you take it at face value I Totally agree with that like.
48:12.12
Rick
I Think a lot of people like listen they if you don't if you if you want someone to act like the the house is on fire and you don't tell them the house is on fire. You're crazy to expect them to think to act like the house is on fire. Um.
48:26.84
tylerking
You're crazy to expect them. Can you tell.
48:30.67
Rick
If you tell them that the house is on fire and they want to like take their time getting out of the house. Um, that is their problem.
48:35.73
tylerking
That is their problem. Yeah, um, sorry to belabor the point. But yeah, like this reminds me of I kind of referenced this in an earlier podcast but never went too deep in it I don't think like we had so we have like a group of people. It's almost the whole company that is in this like committee. That does Dei Diversity equity inclusion work like related to well yeah, diversity equity and inclusion right? Um and we kind of had a bit of tension where like everybody was feeling discontent about it and the reason was just because everyone no one had put clear limits on it and so everyone was Like. We're going to.. It's our responsibility to solve every problem in the world. Um, basically and so like I gave a talk that was real reset I was like here's the deal like we will do things that are byproducts of our company Or. We will reduce harm that we directly cause those are the 2 things we work on every other problem in the world is not for us to work on um and actually everyone's been much happier with that whole thing since then ah just on the topic of getting real and all that like I'm always worried about this that like. Saying the reality that is unpleasant that like it's going to make people upset or less happy. But the reality is if if it is the reality. It was already unpleasant and it's better to say the unpleasant thing and acknowledge it as opposed to just leave it sitting there for everyone to like. Figure out on their own. What it means in those people.
50:02.83
Rick
In most people who are the people that you want to work with in my opinion. The people I want to work with they adjust and they they go Thank you like you know or they go you know I'm gonna adjust. But you know this isn't the place for me and they they opt out but like they adjust they don't just keep.
50:09.45
tylerking
And I think of thank you.
50:21.58
Rick
Acton like you know they're they're in some you know alternate reality. Um.
50:23.35
tylerking
Um, yeah, no yeah I mean since in in this one case since that happened like the work that's getting done. The quality went way up like everybody's focused. They're on the same page like it was a really good thing. So yeah I realize like.
50:29.67
Rick
Um, yeah, totally yeah, totally um, do you? Yeah, you have some product updates.
50:40.80
tylerking
We Talk I listen all these other podcasts like ours and they're constantly talking about features your shipping and stuff and like I never say any of that because I'm like nobody cares about less annoying but I figured maybe I'd give a little update on this. Um, just like things we're working on and specifically I'm going to tie it into like product led growth stuff because as I've been talking about like. In the past we've just like been very reactive to what we build like what do customers tell us they want we build it. We're trying to get a little more deliberate about like product like growth means working on things that will achieve our marketing Goals. We don't want to make the product worse obviously but sometimes they're kind of orthogonal right.
51:15.53
Rick
Every time you say orthagononal I Just I don't know what it means like I know we've talked to. Yeah yeah, but I just like I don't like it means nothing to me in the context like I feel like other people use it too and I'm just can you explain it what you mean by that.
51:17.96
tylerking
There's 2 categories that we've been working on I thought it perpendicular are these are they the same thing.
51:30.21
tylerking
Yeah, ah so yeah, what I said was there's like what our customers are asking us to do and what we think will lead to growth by saying they're orthogonal. It's not that they're conflicting with one another. It's that they're they're pointing and they're not in. They're not like ah.
51:33.24
Rick
Again.
51:49.20
tylerking
Ah, correlated I guess like just because something makes a customer happy doesn't mean it's necessarily good for growth and vice versa So they're not conflicting but they're not related. Um I think orthogonal actually means something like perpendicular like in the dictionary. That's my understanding.
52:00.59
Rick
Okay, got it got it. Okay so they intersect but they don't.
52:06.55
tylerking
Yeah I don't know if the intersection is an important part of how I'm using it. But they're pointing in different directions basically and I'm I Probably don't know the deaf I picked that up purely by context clues. So I could be wrong about that. Um.
52:09.52
Rick
Got it got it got I got it got it. Thank you? Yeah, this is like 1 thing that I like look thank you? okay.
52:22.81
tylerking
So anyway I thought he'd just give an update on like stuff we we've been working on with yeah like.
52:26.66
Rick
Statistically independent orthogonal means so you're basically saying that they are not they are they are. They're not correlated and they're independent. They like independent of each other Yes, got it.
52:32.72
tylerking
They're not correlated right? They're not inversely or whatever like normally correlated. They're just yeah, that's okay, independent. Got it in my head. Okay, so there's None types of projects that I think make sense for product led growth. Um, the first one I'm going to read these in the opposite order from these notes so you're going to think I'm saying this wrong, but the None one is the None you want me to do the most of and I do too. But it's harder is building a ah feature that will cause more traffic to come to our website. Like virality is kind of the the best example of this? Um, but there's other versions of it as well. The none one isn't quite as impactful but it's it's easier and still has some impact I think and that is we've tart. We've identified almost all our metrics are good but None that could be better is when people sign up for a free trial. Not very many come back? A none time if they come back a none time. They almost definitely pay us so like how do we get more like forget trial to paid conversion. That's too broad. We want to drill in on this and just say if you sign up for a free trial How do we get you to come back a none time so those are the None categories we have targeted so I just wanted to talk through what we're doing on those.
53:42.44
Rick
Cool I haven't heard you say the free trial sort of read read Target and and bring back um rate like that's interesting.
53:45.20
tylerking
Um.
53:52.54
tylerking
Yeah, and I don't know the exact number off to my head. But so like we get about 25% of people who sign up for a free trial pay us which is pretty good already but a lot of ideas we've had is like well what if our so maybe they're not doing it because our search isn't very good or maybe they're not doing it. Um, for like our integrations sometimes break and then we look into it and we're like Nope ah, the people who don't pay us didn't come back after the first visit they were lost for some reason the thing they were looking for. They didn't see immediately and nothing we do after that. None visit is going to change.
54:27.36
Rick
Um, interesting.
54:27.83
tylerking
Whether or not they pay. So yeah I would guess that's true of a lot of saas products by the way. Um, okay, so for the ones to to generate more traffic. Um one is zapier. We've talked about everyone in the audience is like I can't believe they don't have zapier integration. You're all right? but. That's kind of a no brainer. Not only is it a feature customers expect which is not a valid reason to build this but they have a marketplace um and they do a lot of like market like kind of cross promotion opportunities with people who build integrations with them so that'll be a channel for us to get new customers. Hopefully that's almost done. Um, we're probably going to start beta testing it in the next month or so hopefully yeah, excited about that. Um, the next one is calendar invites. So like we have a calendar when someone adds a contact of theirs in the serum to an event right now. Nothing happens.
55:08.16
Rick
Nice.
55:23.97
tylerking
We just need to send an email to those people being like yo you got invited to an event. This is what you you'd expect from any calendar but like we're not, We're going to the the email's going to be more like an evite email. It's going to be like Click. A link to rsvp. Yes, no, maybe as opposed to like using the ics built in calendar reservations because I don't like how those work so that means anyone who does this will get exposed to lessening Cm. So I think.
55:46.82
Rick
Is this are customers currently triggering emails at all like to out to their to to their contexts. So this is a big like serious like functionality change like and ah interesting i'mssuming it introduces a ton of ah other like.
55:51.96
tylerking
Not ah only to other users not to context. Yeah.
56:04.53
Rick
Risk um as it relates to how people use your product.
56:05.84
tylerking
Yup, yeah like we're going to have to start worrying about abuse like spammers and stuff like that like just today we were talking about. Okay, we have to have a way to address like if you're invited to an event we have to tell you who's coming to the event. So if it's multiple contexts we have to have their names. Someone could in theory in the crm put like notes in the name that they don't want the cus the contact to see ah, there's all kinds of yes this this has turned into a much bigger project than I expected. But I think I'm this is the biggest opportunity we've got um we have.
56:35.10
Rick
Now like it.
56:40.80
tylerking
None people using our calendar or that's how many users we have I don't know some percentage of them are using our calendar and we could in theory get none of emails going out to their users just like day one as soon as we turn this on. Um, so that'll be a really long project. But but we're making progress on that. Ah, the next one is we're building Oauth right now which is like an improvement to our api but this is in service I think I mentioned to you the idea of like making our api more of a platform and trying to do more to get other people to integrate with us. So Oauth is the next thing but there's like other steps involved. But um, we're getting ready to start. Basically marketing to other saas products and saying hey do you want to? do you want to integrate to us I actually think we are we have talked about this on the podcast right? or okay I think we're like a really really good integration target for smaller Saas companies because we don't we we only integrate with like 3 companies right now. So if you integrate with us like.
57:19.65
Rick
Um, oh yeah.
57:33.40
tylerking
A lot like None of people are going to see your company very prominently on our integration page.
57:36.69
Rick
I mean I'm sort of drooling a little bit and going like I need to go find a a developer and come talk to you and like build an app predict like for less annoying serum.
57:46.72
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, or yeah, we could give a lot of distribution to someone that builds a good integration with us so and and did do we talk about how we're thinking about paying people to do this Potentially I can't um, okay so.
57:59.33
Rick
No, you did not Yes, we did Yes, we did yes you we did talk about it like yes.
58:05.42
tylerking
Yeah, go to someone and say here's like rather than us building the integration go to someone say here's $10000 how about you build it the other direction. Um, and it could be a win-win. What would the integration be I'm open to it. Oh.
58:11.65
Rick
You open to doing a deal with me I don't know yet. Ah, but but we'll build. We'll build the app from scratch.
58:22.99
tylerking
Ah, yeah, build an email. This is a call out there, especially what I want is a really really good email marketing integration. We integrate with Mailchimp right now. A our integration is not very good and b I hate mailchimp if someone out there has a good email like a simple mailchimp type thing. Ah I will. I will send you a lot of customers.
58:42.84
Rick
Yeah, it's funny. Most email platforms like they get super complicated. There's there's no, it's it. Yeah.
58:47.51
tylerking
Yeah, right I think Mailer Lite is the if we had to build it. We'd build it with Mailer Lightte but they're bigger than us like I think the key like the bigger company doesn't build the integration we need to find people smaller than us where we offer the distribution. They do the work. Um, but.
59:01.72
Rick
Um.
59:05.76
tylerking
Email marketing and invoicing tool would be great. Ah, some sort of tax tool would be great. Those are probably the highest on the list. Um, so yeah, those are some of them and then I'll move a little quicker through these because we're running out of time. But um, we're also doing a pretty major redesign working on making good progress on that and. Changing the workspace which is kind of like our dashboard to be much more welcoming. So the the idea is when someone hits like signs up for a free trial. We want them to have a much better none impression to get them to come back. A none time. So those None are that's not all the projects we're working on right now but like this is the the. Best pipeline product pipeline we've ever had I feel really excited about it.
59:42.62
Rick
This is the most exciting I've excited I've ever felt for you about your product pipeline I mean this this stuff like this is lots of different bets um with high potential like unlimited potential growth. Um, and the cool thing I think about both zapier and the calendar invites and the Api.
59:46.47
tylerking
Nice.
01:00:02.58
Rick
Is that if you can get just get it out and get so people to start using these things. It's going to lead to so many other ideas because how they actually use it is going to inform something that you haven't even thought about or maybe you have it's going to validate something that you've been thinking about and you just pull the trigger on.
01:00:08.80
tylerking
Yeah I mean the reality is for years. We're on autopilot. We're just like we have so many customers giving us so many good ideas. Let's just do that and yeah, ah. Placing bets is exactly we we haven't placed a bet in years because it was 100% safe. It was 200 people have asked us for this feature. We're going to build it. There were no bets. There is no risk taking and I think that's that's None reason I'm excited about this is we're taking a risk here. Well.
01:00:38.11
Rick
Are you making any assumptions about the success of each of these individual things like back to our insight? yeah.
01:00:44.97
tylerking
Like to your last one? Um, yeah, ah, let's talk about that calendar invites I haven't explicitly done So so the answer is no and maybe I should leave it at that. But I'm happy to go in and make them up on the spy right now I don't know we have lot of.
01:00:55.78
Rick
Yeah, you probably have thought about like roughly like what what this could do. Okay, that's that's I love that? Yeah, what's your fantasy.
01:00:59.98
tylerking
I have fantasized right? I've told myself a story I've been like well yeah, so right now we're growing but not very fast but Calendar invites. Yeah, like if you do the math on. Okay, how many events are being created with contacts attached and what percentage you're getting sent to people and like. It could generate enough leads to create an extra 10% year over year growth and that's all we need if we had that honestly I would stop marketing I'd be like if we had that Boom Ah the the future. The company has been you know solidified here. Yeah so.
01:01:32.60
Rick
I Love it.
01:01:35.79
tylerking
It's it's not going to happen. Nothing's ever as good as you hope it'll be but that's what I hope? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is I hate like marketing type stuff but product product led gross stuff has been has been really fun. Can I do you have like five more minutes can I ask 1
01:01:37.10
Rick
But hey this is this stuff all add up and it'll lead to something This is great investing in growth is fun man.
01:01:51.90
Rick
Sure.
01:01:53.61
tylerking
Because I have a topic that's related this. Okay so I said we're doing this redesign. We're calling it none. So if I say none I mean the new design. Um, now we're like halfway through it. A lot of other features are getting built and we face a dilemma which is do we bundle. Ah, bunch of the new stuff with none so it's like a big release with lots of features because it is coming out soonish and otherwise we have to build it in None different 2 different Uis or do we roll out everything in the old version 3 8 ah. So that the the the redesign is just a redesign and doesn't doesn't really come with much additional functionality.
01:02:33.62
Rick
I Have no idea like so many questions. Not not a quick. Ah, what do you? I mean? what do you tell me what you guys are thinking and why.
01:02:34.88
tylerking
Um, yeah, okay, right now we're kind of doing it on a case by case basis. So one is if there's not much ui to it. We're doing it in None so for example, like what None of the things we work on is a new type of custom field. Um. It's like None value in a dropdown list like there's not much to design. Ah so we're doing that in the old version. A different None is like the entire redo of how our like our workspace our our homepage works but that it's like I don't want to put in the work of doing it in None different design languages so we're going to save that. Um.
01:03:03.70
Rick
Um.
01:03:13.99
tylerking
So it's just kind of cut case by case but like None maybe right now. That's the main dimension and then the second dimension is like is this something that feels like it belongs with a redesign. So the workspace is also it we're we're read. We're changing the Ux.
01:03:15.51
Rick
The simple stuff you're doing both the complex stuff you're saving.
01:03:33.47
tylerking
While the Ui is changing ah as it.
01:03:34.14
Rick
Does the Ux make this this feature ah or or enhancement better or usable when it wasn't before if if if so you put it to this to the news design If not you leave it. You do it in the new in the old design.
01:03:43.80
tylerking
Yeah.
01:03:49.27
tylerking
Yeah, another thing to consider. Yeah, that's correct. Another final thing to consider is like people often. Don't respond well to change redesigns even though the redesign won't really change the functionality. It'll be very visible I Do think it's nice to have little carrots in there to be like.
01:03:52.95
Rick
So.
01:04:07.70
tylerking
Oh well, you're really cranky about everything but don't you like this and then people calm down a little bit or serious. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
01:04:12.10
Rick
Rewards for contact like serious habit habit forced habit change like oh my god like like Google docs did something recently and I don't know what it is but it was happened to me today and I was like this is different I don't know what's happening and i.
01:04:23.10
tylerking
Um, and there were no rewards that you could see. Yeah, so okay, you're right that you you we would need to talk about this a lot longer and so we we don't need to do that. But this is a dilemma I'm dealing with is like how and the problem is it could be.
01:04:29.80
Rick
Ah, and I haven't found them yet.
01:04:34.25
Rick
And.
01:04:41.84
tylerking
If things go slowly it could be six months before the redesign's done I hope it's 3 but it could be sex and it's like you don't want to end up in this situation where you have this like huge massive amount of improvements that you just you just lost six months of progress on you know, so anyway. Okay, well thanks for listening to me ramble about that.
01:04:55.68
Rick
Ah, anything else. You want to chat about cool. Ah, um, if you'd like to review past topics in show notes visits startup to last dot com see you next week
01:05:00.56
tylerking
Now Now I'm good.
01:05:06.98
tylerking
See see you.