AI Robots and The $10T Arms Race

Welcome to the AI Rollup, from the Limitless Podcast. David, Ejaaz, and Josh break down the week’s most important AI headlines, from OpenAI’s $3B Windsurf acquisition and Google’s full-stack AI play, to Visa and Mastercard preparing for agentic commerce. We explore the state of robotics, major interpretability challenges, and why the race to AGI may outpace our ability to understand it. Plus: AI ASMR, glow-up GPT, and why autonomous agents still kinda suck. Stay curious, this one’s stacked.

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TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES

00:00:00 Intro To Limitless!
https://x.com/LimitlessFT

00:04:23 OpenAI Makes Huge Acquisition
https://www.outlookbusiness.com/artificial-intelligence/openai-to-acquire-ai-coding-platform-windsurf-for-3bn?utm_source=www.theaivalley.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=openai-reverses-for-profit-plan-ai-breakthroughs-in-robotics&_bhlid=7f1b29a5128efe71af21ff4cb81c530bdcac095e
https://x.com/ns123abc/status/1912876350911754676
https://www.testingcatalog.com/google-tests-computer-use-tools-and-cloud-run-hosting-in-ai-studio/?utm_source=www.theaivalley.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=openai-reverses-for-profit-plan-ai-breakthroughs-in-robotics&_bhlid=bd7931dcfd449aa11b0bf7197fdfa983289758c2

00:08:01 Why Spend $3 Billion??

00:16:09 OpenAI Memory Update Is... Interesting
https://techcrunch.com/2025/04/18/chatgpt-will-now-use-its-memory-to-personalize-web-searches/?utm_source=www.theaivalley.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=openai-launches-o3-and-o4-mini&_bhlid=d08c6dc54c407d4f53df9d11a68857dba951a21c

00:23:56 OpenAI Re-Structuring
https://www.reuters.com/business/openai-remain-under-non-profit-control-change-restructuring-plans-2025-05-05/?utm_source=www.theaivalley.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=openai-reverses-for-profit-plan-ai-breakthroughs-in-robotics&_bhlid=c4222c046fc76f42b7f72ca72537e4e8620a2af1

00:37:24 Visa Credit Cards For AI Agents
https://apnews.com/article/ai-artificial-intelligence-5dfa1da145689e7951a181e2253ab349

00:43:21 The Crypto Bull Case

00:45:43 The Deca Trillion Robot Opportunity
https://x.com/adcock_brett/status/1913986971501748390?s=46
https://x.com/kimmonismus/status/1919510163112779777
https://developer.nvidia.com/isaac/gr00t
https://x.com/adcock_brett/status/1916523708153217525?s=46
https://x.com/adcock_brett/status/1919060515998822898?s=46

00:52:44 Dogs With Machine Guns

00:58:11 Using AI To Do Your Job

01:02:12 The Interpretability Talk
https://www.darioamodei.com/post/the-urgency-of-interpretability

01:09:18 AI Neurons?

01:15:27 The Dopamine Section
https://x.com/venturetwins/status/1917640408349434106
https://x.com/ns123abc/status/1918703088598184321?s=46
https://x.com/venturetwins/status/1919057071145672949
https://x.com/aisafetymemes/status/1914003415191212112?s=46

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Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here:
https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Creators and Guests

Host

David Hoffman

Host

Ejaaz Ahamadeen

Host

Josh Kale

What is Limitless: An AI Podcast?

Exploring the frontiers of Technology and AI

David:
Welcome to the AI Roll-Up brought to you by the Limitless podcast,

David:
where we say up to speed with the emerging trends and developments in the AI space.

David:
I'm David Hoffman here with my two co-hosts Ajaz and Josh. Ajaz, how are you doing?

Ejaaz:
I'm doing well, David. It's been quite the week. Less model,

Ejaaz:
frontier model breakthroughs this week.

David:
No frontier model breakthroughs this week? I think that's a first.

Ejaaz:
There's a few, but we're putting them on the back burner because there's some

Ejaaz:
more important things to talk about.

Ejaaz:
It's been an M&A week. So, you know, billions of dollars are being spent to

Ejaaz:
purchase or acquire some of these AI startups that we've spoken about previously on the show.

Ejaaz:
But I think more importantly, I think AI's looked like kind of like this gargantuous

Ejaaz:
cloud, right? And it's kind of ominous.

Ejaaz:
I'm kind of like, is this cloud going to rain on me or is it just going to pass

Ejaaz:
by peacefully and just like kind of like be nice to look at?

Ejaaz:
And I'm starting to see the light. I'm starting to see the kind of formation

Ejaaz:
of what this AI stuff is going to look like.

Ejaaz:
And the reason is, I think we've spoken about a bunch of different things,

Ejaaz:
right? We've spoken about agents.

Ejaaz:
We've spoken about autonomous execution, like, hey, these agents are going to

Ejaaz:
go run and do a bunch of things for you, run companies for you.

Ejaaz:
We've spoken about all these amazing models and how smart they are,

Ejaaz:
but we haven't really pieced together what the end goal is going to look like.

Ejaaz:
We're starting to see a lot more of that this week by some of the moves made

Ejaaz:
by OpenAI and Anthropic. So I'm really excited to get into that.

David:
Yeah, as we talk more and more about AI, I think we are all starting to synthesize

David:
a little bit some of the conversations that we've had on previous episodes,

David:
put them all together and kind of understand the contours and the shapes as

David:
this thing becomes more and more real.

David:
Josh, I introduced this as the AI Roll-Up brought to you by the Limitless podcast.

David:
That is the first time that this has ever been uttered on this podcast feed,

David:
which is the Bankless podcast feed.

David:
But we are launching Limitless this week, which is very exciting.

David:
Talk to me, Josh, about Limitless.

Josh:
Oh man, big week. Limitless kind of stemmed from like a natural extension of

Josh:
our curiosity at Bankless.

Josh:
Bankless is mostly a crypto company. We started getting interested in AI and

Josh:
then naturally we kind of spread out to robotics, manufacturing and energy and

Josh:
all this weird stuff that's happening as downstream effects of this new wave of AI.

Josh:
So Limitless is a place for that. It's the home for all of the stuff that is

Josh:
not crypto, is not economic, is not macro related. It's all the frontier technology, the AI stuff.

Josh:
That's where this show is actually going to be Living is on the Limitless feed.

Josh:
So if you're interested in tech, if you're interested in frontier technology

Josh:
of any sorts, if you're interested in AI, Limitless will be the new home base

Josh:
for all of that. And we're launching this week.

David:
Yeah, yeah. So that is the call to action. What we are doing is we are taking

David:
all of the AI content, all the frontier tech content, which we've been pretty

David:
aggressively exploring at Bankless.

David:
We're putting it into its own feed, which it totally deserves.

David:
And I know there's a lot of people who have been following Bankless for the

David:
AI stuff, but not for the crypto stuff.

David:
And so we are creating a dedicated feed for that. There's also followers of

David:
Bankless, listeners of Bankless who are like, another AI episode.

David:
Weird reaction, but I get it.

David:
It's interesting, like me and Jaws and Joshua, we're all here in New York,

David:
and we'll go to crypto events that are about AI.

David:
And so it's actually a crypto event by crypto people for crypto people,

David:
but it's about the AI subject. So AI has broad appeal. So we're giving it its

David:
own dedicated podcast feed. You're still going to be hearing these episodes

David:
on the Bankless feed as we incubate the new Limitless podcast.

David:
So there is a link in the show notes to go subscribe to the podcast to get that

David:
podcast in your podcast player and also subscribe to the YouTube because we

David:
are making some AI first, AI primary content there.

David:
And then we're also going to do the regular bankless thing of interviews with

David:
big founders, big investors, entrepreneurs in this space who are really helping shape this future.

David:
And also just to double down on what Josh was saying, AI is definitely,

David:
but also frontier tech. So we're talking like rockets. We're talking robotics.

David:
We're talking everything that's going to make the future even weirder than it

David:
already is because it feels like that is coming very, very soon.

David:
But this is the AI roll-up, which again, also happens every single week.

David:
Topics of the week that we're going to talk about, Ijah has already hinted it.

David:
OpenAI making big moves, a $3 billion arms race to gobble up all of the valuable

David:
startups in the AI space. Visa is giving AI agents credit cards,

David:
letting them go wild on the internet.

David:
What happens when you put an LLM into a robot, a real physical robot?

David:
What happens next? And lastly, the hard problem of interpretability.

David:
Why it's important for making sure we can save the future of humanity by cracking

David:
this interpretability problem.

David:
But Jaws, we are going to start with OpenAI making three big,

David:
big moves, a $3 billion arms race. What happened in OpenAI news this week?

Ejaaz:
Okay, so let's get into it. This has been basically the headline news all week

Ejaaz:
and everyone just couldn't stop talking about it yesterday.

Ejaaz:
OpenAI is officially making its first major acquisition by purchasing a company

Ejaaz:
called Windsurf for $3 billion with a B.

Ejaaz:
Now, if you're wondering what on earth Windsurf is, you might have heard David,

Ejaaz:
Josh, and I speak about a company previously on this series called Cursor.

Ejaaz:
And Cursor is basically this kind of vibe coding platform where you can type

Ejaaz:
in a prompt, typically like you do on ChatGPT, but instead you could ask it

Ejaaz:
to create a new app for you or a new piece of software, or maybe even a fun

Ejaaz:
game that you know and love.

Ejaaz:
And it would just code it all right up in front of you.

Ejaaz:
And let's say the environment or the software that allows you to do that is

Ejaaz:
something called an IDE, which stands for Integrated Development Environment.

Ejaaz:
If you're wondering what that

Ejaaz:
is, think of it as a software suite which includes like a coding editor.

Ejaaz:
A compiler and a bunch of other things that you need to basically make software

Ejaaz:
it just makes it really really easy for you and then it adds ai on top of it

Ejaaz:
so you just speak to it like a normal person and it just kind of like pops up an app now,

Ejaaz:
windsurf is in the top two of these types of companies you've got cursor then

Ejaaz:
you pretty much have windsurf at this point,

Ejaaz:
and open ai will now compete directly with things like Cursor,

Ejaaz:
Lovable, and Replit, which do very similar things.

Ejaaz:
And in my opinion, this confirms that there's pretty much an arms race to build

Ejaaz:
the best AI coding assistants ever. So imagine if you could be like the number

Ejaaz:
one tool or platform to the leading software engineers and companies of tomorrow.

Ejaaz:
That's basically the TAM, the Total Adjustable Market. That's basically the

Ejaaz:
market that you're going after.

Ejaaz:
Now, one kind of like interesting caveat that I want to include here is that,

Ejaaz:
This happened after OpenAI tried to buy Cursor. That's the number one platform that does this twice.

David:
So they had to get the second best.

Ejaaz:
Yeah, they basically had to get the second best. And kind of like my initial

Ejaaz:
gut reaction when I read that was,

Ejaaz:
I wonder if Cursor is either holding out for a Google or a Meta to purchase

Ejaaz:
them and go for an even bigger number because they don't want to be bought by Sam Altman's startup.

Ejaaz:
But it's a curious move. and a few other things i want to highlight is this

Ejaaz:
acquisition follows um some major moves by other companies that are doing something

Ejaaz:
similar so google for example launched their own cursor competitor called firebase

Ejaaz:
and if you pull up this tweet david it's actually pretty good and i think this

Ejaaz:
um this example will be quite a good visual example so people can understand

Ejaaz:
you know what on earth this does

Ejaaz:
so what you're watching right now um for those of you who are just listening

Ejaaz:
is a video of someone just sketching out a very, it looks like a three-year-old's drawn it,

Ejaaz:
kind of layout of a website, of an app that can basically help someone draw.

Ejaaz:
And then what you see on the right side is the Google's Firebase platform creating it.

Ejaaz:
And you can actually interact with the tool and draw and paint just like you

Ejaaz:
did on like Microsoft Paint.

Ejaaz:
Very simple, basic example. But can you imagine this being extended out to something else?

Ejaaz:
It's pretty insane. What's your take on this, David?

David:
I think for the listeners, just imagine Microsoft Paint, but on the other side

David:
of it, outcomes and an application, a functioning application.

David:
So, you know, Microsoft Paint on one side, functioning application on the other.

David:
I'm actually curious to hear Josh's take on what's going on here.

Josh:
I think it's cool. I think the second I saw this news, it reminded me of news

Josh:
from a few weeks ago, which was Google acquiring Wiz for $32 billion, I think it was.

Josh:
I think this is an attempt at OpenAI to kind of make their way up the stack.

Josh:
And it's not just about serving their own stack better. It's about now actually

Josh:
embedding themselves in the decision-making layers above that stack so they

Josh:
could shape the flow of traffic regardless of the endpoint.

Josh:
In the case of Wiz, Wiz was kind of like a security aggregator company.

Josh:
So Google owns Google Cloud, but it doesn't have any control over AWS or Microsoft's Azure servers.

Josh:
So what acquiring Wiz does is it allows them, it gives them upstream access

Josh:
to that, like security telemetry, the customer data flows, the threat intelligence,

Josh:
a lot of the data that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Josh:
And I think that's kind of what OpenAI is doing here with Windsurf,

Josh:
where ChatGPT clearly dominates the consumer product space.

Josh:
They own that. They do very well. But in enterprises, a lot of companies are

Josh:
looking for a thing that people are calling model orchestration,

Josh:
which is kind of like, which model will serve my use case the best?

Josh:
And they're looking for aggregators to decide and make that decision for them.

Josh:
Well, OpenAI just bought that aggregator. And they now own this routing and

Josh:
orchestration layer that acts like across this load balancing metric.

Josh:
So now, strategically, they get visibility over influence, over who's using

Josh:
what, what they're using for. And they can optimize their models for these use

Josh:
cases because they have the data.

Josh:
So now going forward, you might see ChatGPT starts to get chosen a lot more

Josh:
by these aggregators because it has all the data of why it's choosing another

Josh:
model that isn't theirs. And I think that's like a pretty interesting play.

David:
Is there a parallel here between like there are deals that Google has made in

David:
the past with browsers about like, hey, we will pay you X amount of money to

David:
make us the default search engine in your browser. So when you type a question

David:
to the toolbar, it automatically routes to Google.

David:
It makes a Google query and Google gets the data from that and the information

David:
for that to make their product better.

David:
It sounds like this is something similar where they are just acquiring this

David:
endpoint, which has a direct relationship with its users. So Windsor has ownership

David:
over the users. has the user relationship. But in the back of Windsurf, there's ChatGPT.

David:
So ChatGPT now just acquires that user relationship. It gets ChatGPT to be used by Windsurf.

David:
And so there's just, it's just more usage for ChatGPT. And then there's also

David:
information about what ChatGPT, how it needs to adapt the information,

David:
the data, like you said, it goes back into ChatGPT.

David:
Is there a parallel there or am I hallucinating here?

Josh:
Probably. It feels like there's a fine line where people go to Windsurf as Windsurf customers.

Josh:
They don't want to be spoon-fed ChatGPT if it's not the ideal model,

Josh:
so that could hurt with customers.

Josh:
I assume they probably won't do it that explicitly, but the implicit thing that

Josh:
they could extract value from is understanding the user's needs and the wants

Josh:
and when certain models are chosen and kind of optimize future versions of the ChatGPT

Josh:
language model to serve those people.

Josh:
So the ideal case is that ChatGPT will actually be able to serve all of these

Josh:
while still gaining data from what people like about the other models.

Ejaaz:
You could also argue that it's just, to your point, Josh, data that they want.

Ejaaz:
Data is the end game, right?

Ejaaz:
In whatever shape or form it comes in, in whatever kind of outlet that you can

Ejaaz:
extract it from, that's what they want. If they want developer activity,

Ejaaz:
if they want to grab it at the consumer level, they already have it at the end

Ejaaz:
consumer level. So now they want to try and get like all the developer activity as much as they can.

Ejaaz:
I wonder what type of a model or even end-to-end experience you can create based off of that, right?

Ejaaz:
And to kind of like strengthen your argument here, I noticed that Google launched

Ejaaz:
something associated with integrated computer use this week as well.

Ejaaz:
They have something called AI Studio, which is kind of like this environment

Ejaaz:
that you're describing, Josh, which doesn't just include kind of like the end

Ejaaz:
user stuff, which OpenAI dominates on, but it also allows developers to kind

Ejaaz:
of like build this kind of like,

Ejaaz:
synonymous end-to-end app experience, right?

Ejaaz:
And what I noticed about this integrated computer use thing is that,

Ejaaz:
you know, they really want to just own end-to-end product development, the entire pipeline.

Ejaaz:
And if you think about it, like you allow them to use their no-code prompt-friendly

Ejaaz:
platform to build your product, right? Leveraging their models and you can inference

Ejaaz:
it through their like cloud system.

Ejaaz:
And then on top of that, you can allow anyone to use it for themselves involves

Ejaaz:
via computer use so if you're an end user right and you're saying hey i really

Ejaaz:
like that app that this developer's built well you can run it locally on your,

Ejaaz:
computer now and you can inference any model that you want say like hey i don't

Ejaaz:
like that it's using this model can we use something else sure like google's

Ejaaz:
ai studio solves for that and i think that's like a really important nuance

Ejaaz:
that's going to make it super super sticky and how they personalize this,

Ejaaz:
experience for users i don't actually quite know i wonder if you have any ideas

Ejaaz:
but um just a very subtle but important improvement i think is is worth noting.

David:
I've brought this metaphor up before in the past on this show but uh the whole

David:
entire um vertical the gaming vertical of uh like league of legends and dota

David:
is like arena battlers or whatever uh

David:
billion dollar industry in just that one type of gaming structure and that gaming

David:
structure was created by a

David:
starcraft mod so some individual using the starcraft map editor and like map

David:
editing engine created uh

David:
this like mod of starcraft that created this structure that basically is is

David:
what uh the moba arena battler league of legends

Josh:
Multiplayer online battle arena

David:
Thank you i don't play league of legends But a

David:
multi-billion dollar industry got created because of this modding ability,

David:
because of the modding ecosystem around this one base game, which was very,

David:
very valuable called StarCraft, but now it spawned an insane amount of value.

David:
And so what I'm seeing here is this is a modding engine for apps.

David:
And the downstream value that could come out of this just give...

David:
Give creativity, give creative tools to people who want to be creative.

David:
And now it's not even developers. It's anyone who's like frustrated that they

David:
are using this app, but there's this one button that's missing that they wish

David:
they could press and it could do something.

David:
And now all of a sudden the creation of that app, if they truly discover value

David:
in it, maybe so do other people as well.

David:
And they just need that one extra little module to hook it into the app.

David:
And now all of a sudden that is a valuable piece of infrastructure that is free

David:
to roam the internet. And so that's what I'm seeing here and why I'm pretty excited about this.

Ejaaz:
You know, something you just reminded me of something, David,

Ejaaz:
when you describe that kind of open modding kind of ecosystem,

Ejaaz:
it's kind of what we're seeing amongst a lot of AI trends today, right?

Ejaaz:
So we've spoken about reinforcement learning, which is like,

Ejaaz:
you know, a very popular post and pre-training method to get AI models to become

Ejaaz:
smarter. And it doesn't require a hell of a lot of compute. It just requires

Ejaaz:
you to give it kind of like some reasoning logic and it gets better and better.

Ejaaz:
I've noticed that the primary way that a lot of these models are learning is

Ejaaz:
through open reinforcement learning gyms.

Ejaaz:
So think of it as like a kind of like a Pokemon gym, right? And you could take

Ejaaz:
your Pokemon, but in this case, your Pokemon is a model.

Ejaaz:
You can put it in the gym and you could train it. It battles over and over again until...

Ejaaz:
It gets smarter and smarter. And you can like orient it around like math,

Ejaaz:
coding, whatever it might be.

Ejaaz:
The thing that accelerates reinforcement learning, David, is just allowing a

Ejaaz:
bunch of anyone, any humans to create their own environments.

Ejaaz:
And then you could just send your model to all of them in a day,

Ejaaz:
or you could just pick the best ones. And it kind of like ranks itself via an open source method.

Ejaaz:
Another example is in training, right? Where previously, like it was just one

Ejaaz:
specific data center, then it was like, oh shit, we need more power.

Ejaaz:
Let's move all the data centers together. But like, let's keep them close because,

Ejaaz:
you know, we need like a high feedback loop.

Ejaaz:
And now it's getting even more distributed. And we'll talk about that later.

Ejaaz:
But I'm just noticing it's like this, dare I say, open source ecosystem that

Ejaaz:
is like purely benefiting the way that we advance AI right now.

David:
We talked last week about the downstream implications of OpenAI's memory update

David:
and how it can remember all of its chats with you.

David:
This saga continues this arc continues what happened in the last seven days to Joss?

Ejaaz:
Okay, so to give context on when we last mentioned this update,

Ejaaz:
David, it was really positive, right?

Ejaaz:
Because we were like, hey, ChatGBT is going to remember everything you've ever said to it.

David:
ChatGBT is turning into a friend. It's turning into an ally.

Ejaaz:
Oh, not just a friend, your best friend. Your best friend. Your second brain. Your psyche.

Ejaaz:
Exactly. You're going to offload your conscience to this thing,

Ejaaz:
basically, and you're going to love it, right?

Ejaaz:
And there were a lot of, like, you know, kind of ominous implications from that.

Ejaaz:
But overall, it was like net net good because the more personalized your AI

Ejaaz:
experience is, you could argue the better and more sticky the product is going to be.

Ejaaz:
Now, there's a dark side to this. And OpenAI, funnily enough,

Ejaaz:
didn't really announce this on any major headlines, which is they updated your

Ejaaz:
memory in a much more creepier way,

Ejaaz:
such that in whatever way you prompt in ChatGPT, you know, sometimes it does a web search for you.

Ejaaz:
So let's say like, hey, can you tell me some of the hottest recipes?

Ejaaz:
I don't know why I keep talking about recipes on the show, by the way.

Ejaaz:
I think I'm just like hungry when I do this episode.

Ejaaz:
But let's say you prompt ChatGPT and you say like, hey, like pull out the top

Ejaaz:
five recipes to create roast chicken or something, right? It does a web search for you.

Ejaaz:
But now with this update, ChatGPT has the permission, rather your explicit permission,

Ejaaz:
to change the way you've worded your prompt.

Ejaaz:
Now, the reason they're giving to you there is just so that they can make your

Ejaaz:
prompt more effective. Right.

David:
But I'm more attuned to what your interests are.

Ejaaz:
More attuned to what, and I'm like, well, hang on a second. How do you know

Ejaaz:
what I want better than I want, right? And we get into like this really weird

Ejaaz:
territory where it's like, hey, can you tell me like what kind of clothes do

Ejaaz:
you think might fit my vibe for this evening?

Ejaaz:
And it starts, you know, pulling like ad sponsors type situation,

Ejaaz:
but then it feeds it to you as if like, hey, this is what you really want,

Ejaaz:
right? And I'm thinking, hang on, like, how can you like change my words?

Ejaaz:
And like, am I held legally wrong?

Ejaaz:
Liable to that like it gets super weird and i'm curious you know how this can

Ejaaz:
get kind of like taken out of context to like some kind of black mirror episode um.

David:
The pattern that i'm seeing here is like the pre-2015 era of the internet which

David:
was already starting to decay at this time but um

David:
you know facebook and cambridge analytica and all of that debacle what we all

David:
learned was that facebook was showing conservatives one version of the internet

David:
one version of the truth It was showing liberals a different version of the internet.

David:
And people were all learning like, oh, my version of the internet is attuned

David:
to me based off of the data that I have exposed about myself to the internet.

David:
And all of a sudden, like my internet is not your internet. It all used to be

David:
one internet. We all looked at the internet and we saw a single source of truth

David:
and the algorithms hadn't corrupted that.

David:
And we're all looking at the same facts. We're all looking at the same news articles.

David:
But as algorithms became more precise about what their goals were,

David:
like, oh, we can get this user to stay online on our platform more if we feed

David:
them content that is more attuned to what their beliefs, then then we're going to do that.

David:
And all of a sudden, you know, everyone got their own interpretation of the

David:
Internet. And we also started to like society started to split into factions.

David:
Right. The right got more right. The left got more left.

David:
And it's because of this curation, which we all want. I want ChatGPT to curate

David:
the best for me, the best for my my likes.

David:
But this is the same pattern that I'm seeing Is like ChatGPT is now Profiling me

David:
And judging me And putting me into a box That I'm not necessarily aware That

David:
it is the box that it is putting me in But nonetheless that is the box that

David:
I'm going into And all of a sudden I will be in a box That

David:
Other the rest of society will not be in and they will be in their own box and

David:
now all of a sudden we are not again

David:
connected as this as a species we are now like profiled and segregated a base

David:
of our interests in our and how chat gpt is being tuned so that is what is triggering

David:
in in me in this hearing this

Josh:
It's this uh this like increasing hyper personalization that we're seeing there's

Josh:
two trends which is the hyper personalization things are created specifically for you

Josh:
and also the relinquishing of all your privacy and data for the better experience

Josh:
which is just a trend that i do not see stopping anytime soon and the

Josh:
results are probably a more fractured idea space because things do become personalized

Josh:
to you and you're seeing this different reality than everybody else

Josh:
um the question is is that better and and what is the incentive from the person

Josh:
who's serving it to you is the incentive to get you to maximize your time spent on the service

Josh:
or is it to give you a truthful answer so you can leave like i love the example

Josh:
you used last week david where you said you use like five or ten percent of

Josh:
your screen time on chat gpt and it's the most valuable time that you spend

Josh:
is that gonna be the outcome where you come you get served and you leave or

Josh:
is it an attempt to just trap us in ecosystem lock maximally extract uh that type of thing and that's

Josh:
it's definitely a step towards that direction

David:
Yeah i definitely see that as an emerging theme of these conversations the ai

David:
roll up the things that the news that we're processing on this base there's

David:
like the dark path and the light path there's like the utopia and the dystopia

David:
and there's the utopia where we want where this

David:
chat gpt intelligence is minimally invasive and maximally value add to our lives

David:
and allows us to be human connect with each other better be informed be more

David:
intelligent and that's the happy path and then there's the dark path of

David:
it encourages brain rot But it encourages isolation.

David:
You guys see like the meta Zuckerberg announcements of like,

David:
oh, yeah, we're actually just going to make online AIs and you're going to be

David:
friends with them. And so like the original Facebook notion was like,

David:
we're going to make everyone connected. We're going to connect everyone.

David:
And now it's now the modern day mission of Facebook, implicit mission of Facebook

David:
is we're going to isolate everyone.

David:
And, you know, the modern day, the happy path of ChatGPT is we're going to make

David:
everyone superpowers. We're going to give everyone godlike intelligence.

David:
And then the unhappy path is we're going to do brain rot even faster, even better this time.

David:
I'm worried that the incentives just point towards the brain rot all the time.

Ejaaz:
Well, I mean, what's the saying around show me who makes the money and I'll

Ejaaz:
show you the incentives or maybe it's like the other way around.

Josh:
It's like, let's show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome.

Ejaaz:
Exactly right. So let's track it all the way up to the top.

Ejaaz:
Okay, OpenAI has an amazing product and they state all these different things

Ejaaz:
like, hey, we want to help you out. We want to make you a better person,

Ejaaz:
a better learner, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Ejaaz:
But, you know, to your point, like they want retention. They want max usage

Ejaaz:
24-7 of people on this thing.

Ejaaz:
And where I get even more worried or concerned is in the case of like Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram.

Ejaaz:
You can take the phone away, right? You can put it away.

Ejaaz:
You can stop. There's only so many pictures you can post in a day.

Ejaaz:
And then you're like, okay, right, I'll put it down.

Ejaaz:
But when it becomes your entire life, your thinking vehicle,

Ejaaz:
and in some cases, your personality.

Ejaaz:
I saw the most random thing of like, I think we mentioned it last week of PhD

Ejaaz:
students using chat GPT prompts to pick up dates and stuff.

Ejaaz:
And I'm just like, well, hang on a second. Like, now it's getting involved in your actions.

Ejaaz:
It's going to tell me what to buy. It's going to tell me how to look.

Ejaaz:
And I'm like, that is an incredibly more stickier function than like Facebook

Ejaaz:
trying to influence your opinion on certain things.

Ejaaz:
So I really hope that it is not going to become the darker outcome,

Ejaaz:
but I can't see a path where it doesn't unless

Ejaaz:
for some reason shareholders of these, you know, corporate companies are kind

Ejaaz:
of like, oh, yeah, you know what, we don't want to fuck humans up too much or like too bad.

Ejaaz:
But actually quite interesting on that case, guys, did you see the news around,

Ejaaz:
open AI's, well, I don't wanna say restructuring, but rather structuring,

Ejaaz:
which kind of like confirmed what they were before. Did you guys see that?

David:
I'm going to need to be informed here.

Ejaaz:
Yeah. Okay. So basically, OpenAI, I'll actually take this direct quote from Sam on his blog post.

Ejaaz:
OpenAI was founded as a nonprofit.

Ejaaz:
Is today a nonprofit that oversees and controls the for-profit?

Ejaaz:
And going forward, will remain a nonprofit that oversees and controls the for-profit?

Ejaaz:
That will not change. Now, what he's referencing here is a long-lasting,

Ejaaz:
highly publicized debate or debacle, rather, that OpenAI was founded as a nonprofit.

Ejaaz:
And Sam was all like, this is for the good of AI. This is back in the day when

Ejaaz:
both Elon Musk and Sam, and if you guys didn't know this, had founded OpenAI.

Ejaaz:
And they were working on creating AI for the betterment of humanity and the people.

Ejaaz:
But at some point, Sam decided, you know what?

Ejaaz:
I kind of want to make this a for profit because there's a lot of money to be made in this AI thing.

David:
Well, also, he needed to to keep opening AI alive because you need the profit

David:
incentive to attract the best talent, to attract investors, to stay ahead of the game.

David:
And so, yes, it was a trap. It always needed to be like this.

David:
As soon as there was any amount of legitimate competition, the nonprofit model was a failure scenario.

Josh:
Yes, primarily to raise money for training. because in order to do those big

Josh:
training runs, you needed money. And in order to attract investors,

Josh:
you needed to have some sort of promise to give them money back.

Ejaaz:
Right, exactly. So that is like, you know, the greenfield really good way to look at this.

Ejaaz:
And I think like arguably to this extent, that's what Sam's been doing.

Ejaaz:
You know, he set up, what's it called? Stargate or whatever it's called,

Ejaaz:
like the biggest basically data center factory that is being built,

Ejaaz:
I think in Texas or somewhere like that.

Ejaaz:
And he's investing the funds that he's raised in exactly where he said he was going to do it.

Ejaaz:
But at what point does the full profit then become maybe a bit of an issue?

Ejaaz:
Now, I personally don't really see an issue in this turning into a full profit.

Ejaaz:
In fact, I think it actually should be a full profit.

Ejaaz:
If I'm going to be using this product, I want it to eventually get better.

Ejaaz:
I don't want it to become some kind of,

Ejaaz:
communist table stake to ai kind of thing i'm just gonna i'm just gonna go to

Ejaaz:
the product that works better um so i don't really get why there's been so much

Ejaaz:
kind of backlash against this i think it's because sam had,

Ejaaz:
quite the lead with open air and now it's become kind of like table stakes and

Ejaaz:
maybe this is a bit of a competitive move from you know uh,

Ejaaz:
x and elon musk and open ai and stuff who have been filing a lawsuit against

Ejaaz:
him but really interesting to see that like open airs kind of back down and said okay okay okay

Ejaaz:
we'll keep it we'll keep the non-profit in control of the for-profit and wait

Ejaaz:
until everything everyone's calmed down and then we'll kind of maybe flick it back to a for-profit.

David:
I think ultimately that all of this is going to turn into a nothing burger the

David:
non-profit wrapper around a for-profit company is just the same thing as a board

David:
of directors around a for-profit company it's the same structure it's just a

David:
for-profit company with extra steps

David:
uh we've already figured out like general c-corp incentive structures there's

David:
a reason why the delaware c-corp is what it is it is a science that has been well attuned.

David:
We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. I don't know why.

David:
I don't know the story behind the nonprofit genesis of OpenAI.

David:
Maybe it was just an anomaly.

David:
Ultimately, as time progresses, I think this is just going to be this weird

David:
anomaly about how OpenAI got started.

David:
And it's going to ultimately look like a for-profit company,

David:
like all the rest, kind of like how it already looks. I don't know.

David:
Josh, that's my take. What do you think?

Josh:
Yeah. The inception of OpenAI and the reason it's called OpenAI is because at

Josh:
the time Google had invented the transformer, they were becoming a powerhouse in the world of AI.

Josh:
And Elon and Sam had this vision that they wanted a counterbalance to a monopolistic

Josh:
and super intelligence and the counterbalance was an open source to AI that's

Josh:
for the people. So that was the idea on paper.

Josh:
In practice, you need a lot of money to buy these training models.

Josh:
You need to buy the GPUs to train the models.

Josh:
You need a lot of funding. There are profit motives that are required in order

Josh:
to create consumer products that get this product out there.

Josh:
So it got kind of clouded over time. And I think if...

Josh:
They had just started as a for-profit organization. None of this would have made a difference.

Josh:
The thing that I'm really interested in, less than the company structure,

Josh:
because it feels kind of irrelevant. They are for-profit.

Josh:
They will hopefully send some gimmies out, is where they stand on the open part of it.

Josh:
Where will the company state, like, hey, we are going to release these models

Josh:
to the public as a public good service, and we're going to keep these models closed?

Josh:
I'm more interested in that internally, is how they're thinking about releasing

Josh:
those models to the public and actually maintaining the open sense,

Josh:
that initial mission of distributing the computes and the intelligence.

David:
We've talked in the past on this podcast about how all of the frontier models

David:
just become owned by the value of these models, become owned by the public domain

David:
pretty quickly because of the rat race of open source.

David:
Like open source is, I don't know, six months behind, nine months behind the

David:
frontier models. It is not more than a year behind.

David:
And so the value of the frontier models, whoever's got the best frontier model,

David:
that value will show up in the open source domain within 12 months.

David:
And so I'm not sure what the value is. Like, does it matter if OpenAI keeps

David:
their models behind a silo, a closed silo?

David:
Maybe they're a hypocrite, but I'm not sure that matters because ultimately

David:
the open source arena always catches up to the value of the best model that

David:
we've produced somewhere on the

David:
earth. And that is inclusive of all the models coming out of China too.

Josh:
This has been true in the past. I think the scales are a bit different.

Josh:
I actually saw this interesting post by Kevin Whale this morning.

Josh:
He's like the chief product officer of OpenAI. And it was about a blog post

Josh:
where other countries are actually

Josh:
reaching out to OpenAI to build Project Stargates in their own country.

Josh:
And that diminishes the free marketization of these large language models where

Josh:
now there's not a free market competing for the best spot and releasing it.

Josh:
There is a country that wants to consult with a single company that wants to

Josh:
integrate their AI into the way that they populate AI through their country.

Josh:
So it feels like the scales are increasing and the breadth of this is narrowing

Josh:
in the sense that they're looking for a source of truth from one person instead

Josh:
of this open source version.

Josh:
And that feels like where things can get a little shaky.

David:
Interesting. Okay, so what you're saying is that the assumption that there's

David:
compression amongst all the frontier models, there's like seven,

David:
eight frontier models out there, all these different AI labs,

David:
many of them, all ruthlessly competing.

David:
And because of that competition, there's a great equalization because the learnings

David:
of one frontier model become the learnings of the other, and that value gets passed around.

David:
And then because it's just passed around, it becomes available in the open source domain.

David:
What you're saying is that that assumption that that is going to be the way

David:
that it is is not a perfect assumption and we should be wary that actually there

David:
are very strong economies of scale here and the possibility of one or two or

David:
a very low number of frontier models

David:
make a break for it and actually become very large and have economies of scale

David:
is a possibility that we should watch out for that's that's what i just heard from you

Josh:
Yeah that that feels about right and um

Josh:
Yeah, I think as things kind of accelerate faster, if you ask the OpenAI team

Josh:
from a decade ago, when they were first getting started, that there would be,

Josh:
if you told them that there would be seven or eight giant frontier model companies

Josh:
that are all competing, that'd be a great thing.

Josh:
So, so far we're good because the initial use case was to fight Google,

Josh:
which was the single entity. So, the fact that there's seven or eight now is good.

Josh:
I think it's just important to watch the narrowing of that as the velocity of

Josh:
these models increases to just kind of keep checks and make sure that some aren't

Josh:
really running away faster than the others.

Ejaaz:
Where do you think the stickiness forms josh i i know we've discussed this previously

Ejaaz:
but i think it it comes down to who creates the best,

Ejaaz:
end user app whether that is some kind of developer platform or a chat gpt interface

Ejaaz:
that does a bunch of stuff for you i don't really see how it could be anything

Ejaaz:
to do with some kind of pioneering model unless it's like really that much better Right.

Ejaaz:
All the model updates that we see, you know, over the last couple of weeks with

Ejaaz:
Quan, with Gemini 2.5, Flash from Google, they all beat certain benchmarks.

Ejaaz:
But I think no one really sees what that looks like until it's like in practice. Right.

Ejaaz:
Unless you're like a crazy like kind of coder or whatever. So I think it comes

Ejaaz:
down to like stickiness.

Ejaaz:
And so if you have, and I want to hear your opinion on this,

Ejaaz:
OpenAI going to other countries and,

Ejaaz:
you know, committing basically a ton of data and compute to,

Ejaaz:
you know, help them whatever locally own whatever OpenAI's product or models are over there.

Ejaaz:
How do you think that kind of like seeds their position other than just like the model and compute?

Ejaaz:
Or do you think that is enough of a moat, right? Just because like they're there.

Josh:
Yeah, there's probably different layers to it. There's like the consumer and

Josh:
business layer, which is

Josh:
the app moat that we discussed with the data mode with memory and that's super

Josh:
powerful but i think above that is the like nation-state policy level influence

Josh:
where i mean we made a joke of it with the tariffs that they were generated by chat gpt but by

Josh:
by using these systems for for things that are greater than just consumer applications

Josh:
for making like large decisions for implementing policy for implement like think

Josh:
of china for how they should

David:
We tariff china or not

Josh:
Yeah manage or even as as the chinese like as a Chinese citizen,

Josh:
how the government should command its citizens.

Josh:
I think there is like this higher level influence of AI that is more idea driven

Josh:
instead of consumer driven in terms of like policy and how to run countries.

Josh:
That's the part that feels, yes, more, more vibes and more heavily influenced.

Josh:
So when I read this early this morning, the open eyes can be working with countries

Josh:
instead of companies that was like, oh, OK, this is this. The scales are now

Josh:
like getting grander and grander. Right. Right.

David:
Yeah. The idea of China using AI to govern its population is not a new idea.

David:
I think even Peter Thiel talked about this forever ago, which he talked about

David:
like AI is highly centralizing, crypto is highly decentralizing,

David:
and both of these like verticals are growing antagonistically towards each other.

David:
Anyways, I think we're ready to move on from OpenAI. Let's get into the subject

David:
of Visa because Visa is giving AI credit cards, and I don't know what that means. Josh, what's going on?

Ejaaz:
Listen, please.

Ejaaz:
Yeah. So in an unexpected move, honestly, Visa announced something called intelligent commerce,

Ejaaz:
which is basically giving a bunch of autonomous, well, kind of semi-autonomous

Ejaaz:
AI agents a credit card or the equivalent of like a bank account or a wallet.

Ejaaz:
And it makes sense because I think AI commerce is becoming more of a thing.

Ejaaz:
And I'll get into what exactly that means.

Ejaaz:
But basically, the initial use case for this is that you have like an agent

Ejaaz:
that you can talk to that you can use to do all the kind of like boring things

Ejaaz:
that you kind of don't want to be getting to, but you need to as like daily errands, right?

Ejaaz:
So maybe, hey, can you go order the weekly groceries off of Amazon for Whole

Ejaaz:
Foods or whatever? Or can you organize a travel itinerary for my business trip?

Ejaaz:
Or, you know, log in through my company server and do A, B, and C?

Ejaaz:
Or restaurants, hotel bookings, stuff that we've spoken or discussed about on this show before.

Ejaaz:
But I think the specifics is where it gets kind of interesting.

Ejaaz:
So humans will basically be able to have full control over the rules and limits

Ejaaz:
that an agent can operate with, right?

Ejaaz:
So you can kind of determine what its spending cap it's going to be,

Ejaaz:
what kinds of websites it can visit, whether it needs to be an official website

Ejaaz:
address or whether they can kind of like vibe on Google and pick like the top

Ejaaz:
sponsored link or whatever that might go.

Ejaaz:
And, you know, that could go wrong in many different ways.

Ejaaz:
What I found really interesting here in the spec is they're using tokenized

Ejaaz:
digital credentials linked to the human owner.

Ejaaz:
And that sounds super vague and boring, but I think is actually really important because

Ejaaz:
if you think about this AI becoming eventually an extension of yourself,

Ejaaz:
right, a digital identity, We've spoken about this a lot on the crypto and Web3

Ejaaz:
side, which is like, oh, we should decentralize identity and it'll give you like this, you know...

Ejaaz:
Self-owned financial credit score and all that kind of stuff,

Ejaaz:
we're seeing Visa basically take the steps towards defining what those credentials

Ejaaz:
look like for you from a financial sense, right?

Ejaaz:
In addition to the spec, you can do things like dispute handling in real time

Ejaaz:
because Visa has a customer support line and it's managed by Visa.

Ejaaz:
And they're launching with some really cool partners, which I think is one of

Ejaaz:
the most important things when you're launching a product like this.

Ejaaz:
You need distribution and partners.

Ejaaz:
And the partners that they're launching with are all the big dogs,

Ejaaz:
like OpenAI, IBM, Anthropic, Microsoft, and Stripe.

Ejaaz:
And the reason why I find this such a compelling thing, and maybe this is because

Ejaaz:
I've spent a lot of time on the Web3 stuff, is that was mainly the pitch that

Ejaaz:
was given for a lot of crypto AI agents, right?

Ejaaz:
You know, we've spoken about this a lot, David and Josh, where we're like,

Ejaaz:
okay, I think crypto is going to be pretty much the financial rails for the

Ejaaz:
future of AI. And the reason why it's going to.

David:
Be the case is- AI guys can't have bank accounts, but they can have Ethereum addresses.

Ejaaz:
They can have Ethereum addresses.

David:
I can go find 20 Ryan Shaddam tweets like that.

Ejaaz:
And listen, David, I can never take down your Ethereum wallet,

Ejaaz:
right? You know, you own your keys, blah, blah, blah. It's cheaper in some cases

Ejaaz:
if you're using L2s or whatever.

Ejaaz:
And, you know, you're able to basically access any app that anyone creates on

Ejaaz:
this infrastructure known as the blockchain.

Ejaaz:
Now Visa's coming along. Oh, by the way, the antithesis for TradFi was it's too expensive.

Ejaaz:
They'll never scale. Their infrastructure is too siloed, right?

Ejaaz:
And now you have Visa come along being like, hey, it's not really that big a deal.

Ejaaz:
We will gladly give your agents their own wallet.

Ejaaz:
We'll give you even better controls over it. And we'll give you a customer support

Ejaaz:
line if anything goes wrong. Can't do that with a blockchain, can you?

David:
You know, in hindsight, when we are talking about a revolution of intelligence,

David:
the idea that AI won't be able to learn how to use credit cards kind of seems dumb.

Ejaaz:
Yeah, so I think this is interesting because this isn't an update in silo from Visa.

Ejaaz:
MasterCard also had an update, funnily enough, this week. So I feel like they

Ejaaz:
were playing off of each other when one announced first that they're announcing

Ejaaz:
payments for agents called AgentPay.

Ejaaz:
It does a lot of the same thing that I just described for Visa's new product,

Ejaaz:
but specifically this takes place within conversations that users are having with AI.

Ejaaz:
For example, it'll integrate directly with ChatGPT or Microsoft's AI co-pilot.

Ejaaz:
It'll also leverage things like memory data from each of the platforms that

Ejaaz:
you use. So for example, OpenAI's memory that it has on you,

Ejaaz:
it'll end up making personalized recommendations for purchases that you have

Ejaaz:
within your conversations.

Ejaaz:
And the reason why I think this approach is also really powerful is it's not

Ejaaz:
kind of bothered about you coming onto Visa, setting up an account,

Ejaaz:
attaching your agent to this thing.

Ejaaz:
It just integrates directly into wherever you're using AI, whether that's Claude,

Ejaaz:
whether that's ChatGPT, or whether that's even Meta.ai.

Ejaaz:
And so two different approaches from two of the biggest companies on this play.

Ejaaz:
You know, one thing it reminded me of, guys, is you know how when stablecoins

Ejaaz:
became a pretty major thing, and it continually becomes a major thing with every

Ejaaz:
week passing, Visa came in and said, Hmm, what can we do here?

Ejaaz:
Okay, okay, okay. I get that you guys like stable coins. And I get that it's

Ejaaz:
basically replacing the dollar and it's quicker and it's better than Swift. We'll support that.

Ejaaz:
Just let us take a tiny fraction percentage of this transaction flow and we'll

Ejaaz:
be good. Does that sound good?

Ejaaz:
And everyone said, okay, yeah, that sounds good. We're saving money.

Ejaaz:
And they ended up making like $500 million in the first year.

Ejaaz:
Now imagine applying that to just anyone performing any kind of economic activity?

Ejaaz:
You know, what percentage of David's Amazon grocery list do I want per year?

Ejaaz:
You know, how much is that worth for me times, you know, all his activities that he does?

David:
I do want to defend crypto for a moment because we've just talked about how,

David:
you know, with both Visa and MasterCard, it's very obvious, like the incentives

David:
point towards Visa and MasterCard entering the AI space.

David:
All AI commerce Visa wants, all ai commerce mastercard wants that's their business

David:
model they get 2.9 or 3.5 on every transaction so they need to be able to give

David:
ai's credit cards so that they can take that fee that's their business model

David:
makes total sense this is totally expected um

David:
and so like the yeah the notion of just like oh yeah crypto is for ai agents

David:
uh because like both are code-based uh

David:
i think still makes sense mainly because there are compliance things

David:
that visa and mastercard have to deal with that the crypto space does not have

David:
to deal with uh they have to deal with chargebacks and fraud and the bank secrecy

David:
act crypto does not have to do that uh

David:
irrevocable transactions means that we don't have to worry about chargebacks

David:
and fraud and all of those things you just have to be far more careful about

David:
the transactions that you make which is up to the ai developers in the crypto

David:
space and so there are fundamental

David:
breaks on the trad AI commerce space that crypto will not experience.

David:
And, you know, the idea of there being 10 billion AI agents all making commerce,

David:
that doesn't mesh well with fraud chargebacks and the Bank Secrecy Act.

David:
And so if we're truly trying to have scale and the number of agents who are

David:
able to do commerce freely without frictions, and, you know,

David:
2.9% is also a lot, especially if we go into high volume

David:
microtransactions, there is actually plenty of room for the efficiencies of blockchain rails.

David:
And it's not to say that like, oh yeah, AI agents can use blockchain rails to

David:
like commit fraud and get around the bank secrecy act.

David:
It's just about the inversion of the rules where because there are chargebacks

David:
on Visa, there therefore needs to be fraud departments and like all of these things.

David:
So it's not about like AI agents can commit fraud on blockchains uh they can

David:
they probably will i should probably assume should assume that but it's still

David:
going to be like a minority of global use cases just because of the nature of the

David:
different properties between blockchain commerce and uh visa mastercard commerce

David:
and so there i still think there is plenty of room for

David:
AI blockchain commerce to exist. All right. So this week, I think is the first

David:
week that we are talking about robots, but I think there's a natural synergy

David:
between artificial intelligence and robots.

David:
I don't think I need to explain how those two things go together,

David:
other than it's scary and I'm scared about it. But Josh, maybe tell me what's

David:
going on in the world of AI-ridden robots.

Josh:
I actually, because this is the first time we're talking about robots,

Josh:
I kind of want to set the stage of how big of a deal robots actually are.

Josh:
I think a lot of people see them Yeah, I'm like, oh, this is cute.

Josh:
Like I have a Roomba with arms now and like maybe you can get my groceries.

Josh:
But like the opportunity is way, way bigger than that. And to explain,

Josh:
I want to use Apple as an example.

Josh:
When Apple released the iPhone 2006, I think their market cap was about $70 billion.

Josh:
And at the time, ExxonMobil was the biggest company in the world.

Josh:
They were like $350 billion, not even a trillion dollars.

Josh:
So the perceived upper bounds of Apple, which created these like toy consumer

Josh:
devices that were not really that serious, they were just kind of always like

Josh:
talk to each other, was about whatever the multiplication is on that.

Josh:
Like, let's say a 5x to get to the most valuable company in the world,

Josh:
which was oil and oil ran the world. So that was clearly the max.

Josh:
That was clearly the limit.

Josh:
But fast forward to today, Apple actually hit a $4 trillion market cap because

Josh:
it created an entirely new industry on top of the economy that actually was

Josh:
worth a lot more than oil.

Josh:
The same thing is kind of happening with robotics here. I think you could kind

Josh:
of view consumer or like productive output of an economy based on the productivity

Josh:
per workforce times the workforce.

Josh:
And what we're going to see now with robots is that the workforce number will increase.

Josh:
Will expand exponentially. And now our workforce will be reflective of not just humans, but robots.

Josh:
And the thing with robots is they are much cheaper than human beings.

Josh:
So when you are going to your board and you are explaining to them why you want

Josh:
to keep these humans, it's going to be a very difficult argument to have when

Josh:
the cost per robot is significantly cheaper.

Josh:
So there's this forcing function of like, hey, robots are much better,

Josh:
they're much cheaper, and they create a lot more productive output than us.

Josh:
And also they will decrease the cost of goods because the actual cost of employment is so much lower.

Josh:
So robots is a really big deal. And I think we'll probably see like the perceived

Josh:
limit now, let's say it's Apple at $4 trillion.

Josh:
Some robotics company will exceed that. And it will exceed that aggressively

Josh:
because it is replacing a human workforce times X. We don't know that multiple,

Josh:
but we can produce robots much faster than we can make babies that are working.

Josh:
And like that is a big multiplier that I don't think people are taking into account.

Ejaaz:
Josh, steady your horses here for a second. Can I just say, if I also hadn't

Ejaaz:
nerded out about this robot stuff over the last two weeks, I would think you're

Ejaaz:
completely insane, dude.

Ejaaz:
I think that the mental block that I... It sounds crazy, but you're so right.

Ejaaz:
The mental block that I was trying to jump through myself when I was like literally

Ejaaz:
reading these news updates and watching these cute and sometimes terrifying

Ejaaz:
robots go berserk. I don't know if you guys saw that video, by the way,

Ejaaz:
of the robot going berserk. I was like, these things aren't real.

Ejaaz:
They're not agile enough. They're not like, surely this is all just CGI.

Ejaaz:
But I think what you're trying to say is we're reaching a point where they're

Ejaaz:
going to be able to basically replace a lot of what us humans can do.

Ejaaz:
Not just that factory work, but like cleaning the dishes, going and running errands for us.

David:
Even robots that are one third the speed of a human. If a human is three times

David:
faster than a robot, that robot can still work 24 seven and produce the same

David:
output as a human for no money if you own the robot.

Josh:
This is happening. There is no reality in which the robots that you're seeing,

Josh:
even if they are a little AI enhanced, will not exist.

Josh:
They will absolutely exist. They will have human capabilities.

Josh:
They will have narrow band robots. They will have general band robots with hands

Josh:
and with the proper function that humans do.

Josh:
This is happening. Absolutely.

Ejaaz:
Josh, how much is this going to cost me? How much is it going to cost me? Is it the cost of a TV?

Ejaaz:
Like a 52 inch TV back in the day?

David:
What are we talking about?

Josh:
Well, it depends on how it's going to cost you, but it comes in different ways.

Josh:
So there's the cost of the actual robot. If you want a personal assistant,

Josh:
that will hopefully start at like 40, 30 to $40,000. We're seeing a few early

Josh:
versions of that and then rapidly decrease.

Josh:
But I think a lot of the effects that people don't recognize is the robots that

Josh:
are outside of your apartment, outside of your house, the ones that are working

Josh:
in factories that are working significantly cheaper, but significantly more

Josh:
efficiently that decrease the cost of goods.

Josh:
So if we do have essentially an infinite workforce that is infinitely capable

Josh:
and infinitely energized and infinitely patient,

Josh:
Then they can be working 24-7, 100 times the efficiency that we are,

Josh:
and decrease the cost of goods sold across every single medium.

Josh:
So perhaps it costs you tens of thousands of dollars to get one in your house

Josh:
initially, but that cost goes down.

Josh:
And also the cost of goods that you buy outside of your house will go down significantly.

Josh:
And this is kind of this paired with AI. So you have these smart robots that

Josh:
are getting increasingly intelligent. They're able to replace the human need

Josh:
throughout our economy.

Josh:
We'll probably decrease the cost of a lot of things really, really rapidly.

David:
And it's probably worth noting that there are already robots out there um waymo

David:
is a robot that is a robot car and that is that is doing the job of a human

David:
person driving other people around and then i've also seen

David:
um i think we've all seen like these little robot like uber eats food carriers

David:
where you put the you put the food in the little robot the robot drives just

David:
wheels itself over to the the destination and then it drops off the food and

David:
it's also got a little face on it but it looks like a

David:
box with wheels nonetheless a robot and that's what drosh is talking about with

David:
these differently form factors for robots and so there's already robots out there

David:
and i think we are seeing the possibility of them approaching a more humanoid

David:
form factor why a humanoid form factor well because the world is the world is

David:
a human form factor because we've built the world to

David:
to work with a humanoid form form factor and so that's to be expected i have

David:
not i haven't seen seen personally a waymo but i know that they're all over

David:
san francisco i haven't personally seen a food carrier robot

David:
But I don't know if you guys have, but I'm willing to bet us three and all the

David:
listeners over the next three years, we're all going to have our,

David:
oh, there's my first robot that I see out in the wild moment.

David:
And we're all going to pop our robot cherry by like, oh, a robot just delivered

David:
me some product or service.

David:
And now that's just going to become ubiquitous in a very short order after that.

Josh:
A helpful framework for thinking about it is all of the AI that we talk about

Josh:
that's really exciting on the show, robots are the physical manifestation of

Josh:
that. So robots are AI applied to reality.

Josh:
And I think the opportunity and the craziness that we're going to see of this

Josh:
crazy AI that we discuss every single year applied to the physical meat space

Josh:
that we live in is going to blow minds. And it's increasing as rapidly as AI is itself.

David:
Hmm i feel like this is just turning into the doom show this is the

Ejaaz:
Doom show yeah i don't think it's.

Josh:
Really exciting to me that gets me fired up yeah we're gonna have a

Ejaaz:
Bunch of robots hang on a second we're just talking about people you know meta

Ejaaz:
disconnecting people and you know giving them ai friends and now what is it

Ejaaz:
going to be an ai robot friend like hell.

David:
Yeah i want a robot probably

Ejaaz:
Yes yeah probably probably but again this is not the doomer show okay so,

Ejaaz:
what talking about like first interactions with the robot i have seen that delivery

Ejaaz:
career robot david and it looks super cute right um nvidia also like announced

Ejaaz:
that they have this like you know cute little groot robot thing and it's like

Ejaaz:
this tiny little thing that looks like that what's that

Ejaaz:
what's that disney film guys that i'm i'm the one with like the cute robot that

Ejaaz:
roves on mars or whatever it's called,

Ejaaz:
wally yeah yeah okay i'm i'm mocking my age a little,

Ejaaz:
bit Then there's the next level up, right?

Ejaaz:
There's that Black Mirror episode from, I think, season one or season two,

Ejaaz:
where it looks like a dog, but it's trapped with a machine gun on its back, right? I'm pretty sure.

David:
I saw a video of this last week, a dog with a machine gun on its back.

Ejaaz:
Well, that was going to be my next point. Like, China's already got,

Ejaaz:
like, 50,000 of these things in, like, a training camp.

Ejaaz:
And it's, like, practicing, like, shooting practice. I watched this entire video,

Ejaaz:
didn't understand a single word, but I understood one thing,

Ejaaz:
the concept of death, right? And I was like, Jesus, this is crazy, guys, right?

Ejaaz:
But kind of like stepping back, to your point earlier, David, like,

Ejaaz:
Yes, these robots are becoming more humanoid, right? But they're also becoming more intelligent.

Ejaaz:
And to kind of bring this back to like the AI side of things,

Ejaaz:
it's because people are pairing, you know, this AI, which is basically replicating

Ejaaz:
human intelligence with a human kind of like one of a physical form that isn't

Ejaaz:
just a human, it's a robot.

Ejaaz:
One thing that I found interesting is it's not as simple as taking OpenAI's

Ejaaz:
AI model and sticking it in a robot's brain.

Ejaaz:
That actually doesn't work. You have to create different types of models which integrate,

Ejaaz:
different multimodal mediums like vision and translating that into interpretability

Ejaaz:
and then action and understanding and all that kind of stuff.

Ejaaz:
It requires new models.

David:
Right? OpenAI, ChatGPT, all these models, they're all thinking.

David:
It's all thought. It's all cognitive. It's not about senses.

Ejaaz:
Yeah, exactly. It's all characters. It's things that computers today understand, but robots have no idea.

Ejaaz:
They don't know to look at a lamp next to you and be like, yeah,

Ejaaz:
there should be a switch somewhere here that I can flick, right?

Ejaaz:
So right now, I think we're at the GPT-1 or GPT-2 moment of models,

Ejaaz:
right? So we've got NVIDIA releasing, I think the actual model is called Groot,

Ejaaz:
which is like a general purpose thing, but it's very deterministic.

Ejaaz:
So they're saying, hey, robot, when you see this water bottle,

Ejaaz:
it's a water bottle and it's something that contains a liquid.

Ejaaz:
So it's kind of like self-guiding.

Ejaaz:
And then recently this week, I just saw a major update from this company in

Ejaaz:
California, which basically released something called a 0.5 pi model,

Ejaaz:
which is more of a generalist model.

Ejaaz:
And they've put it into their own homemade robot and it can basically move around

Ejaaz:
and it can understand kind of homemade tasks.

Ejaaz:
It could see like your sink for the first time and see that there's dishes in

Ejaaz:
there and be like, I should clean these dishes, like it's got done.

Ejaaz:
So it understands and it interprets and it's kind of like accelerating at honestly

Ejaaz:
a speed that I didn't think was possible like six months ago.

Ejaaz:
Josh, do you have any further insight into how these robotic models work?

Josh:
No, you're so right. A lot of models that we're used to today,

Josh:
they use token-based text models.

Josh:
And text doesn't really apply when you have eyeballs and you have ears and you

Josh:
have sensors outside in the physical world.

Josh:
There's this really great example that I love because it's so reflective of how early we are.

Josh:
And it's the Tesla Optimus robot. And when they first trained it,

Josh:
they didn't have any data on humans. They wouldn't strap cameras to humans' heads.

Josh:
So what they did is they fed it the car's autopilot data. So for the first few

Josh:
months of training, Optimus thought it was a car.

Josh:
And it was viewing walkways as car lanes and it would look for stop signs.

Josh:
And you kind of have to iterate through and train it like, hey,

Josh:
you're not a car, but you live in the same type of reality.

Josh:
And we're seeing exactly like you said, just very early versions of that where

Josh:
the models are starting to get trained. They're starting to collect data,

Josh:
but they haven't really experienced that takeoff moment that we've had in the.

Josh:
General text-based models where every single week we're getting a new frontier model.

Josh:
So I think the curve is slightly further behind, but I'm sure that's something

Josh:
that we're going to be seeing a lot of is a race for data around real world's

Josh:
inputs and multi-sensory, multimodal inputs.

Josh:
And that's something that I think is super important to watch as these robotics

Josh:
companies start to spin up humanoids like this one that we're looking at right now.

David:
As we explore more and more subjects on Limitless, especially in the Monday

David:
interview episodes that Josh and I are going to do, I think one of the big themes

David:
is we are capable of using AI to accelerate innovation in other sectors.

David:
And so generating robot models, we have the AI tools to do that faster now.

David:
And so what might have taken a decade is going to take six months.

David:
Everything's getting faster. And one of the other things that we frequently

David:
bring up on this episode is, are any of your guys' friends using AI?

David:
My crypto friends are, my non-crypto friends are not.

David:
And so they are not even aware of the massive amount of intelligence that's coming into existence.

David:
But they know about it, but robots are just not on their radar.

David:
So telling them that like in three years, robots will walk among us and have

David:
chat GBT level of intelligence, but they are still beginning to grok.

David:
Parts of society are just completely blind to this.

Ejaaz:
I saw this really interesting chart this week, guys. Actually,

Ejaaz:
I think I saw it yesterday, which tracks the visit, visitation and usage of,

Ejaaz:
OpenAI's ChatGPT website.

Ejaaz:
And it's up only during Monday to Friday.

Ejaaz:
And then it stagnates and goes down Saturday and Sunday.

Ejaaz:
Now, there's many reasons why that might be the case. But the major takeaway

Ejaaz:
that I've seen floating around is that people are using it for their work.

David:
For work.

Ejaaz:
Like 24-7 to do a bunch of different things. I speak to a lot of people that

Ejaaz:
are in the non-crypto world that just use AI consistently to generate documents,

Ejaaz:
PDFs or whatever it might be, like proposals or pitches for their kind of sales team.

Ejaaz:
And I think we're just going to see this accelerate even more. like personally and.

Josh:
Professionally a lot of my friends still use chat gpt as google it's an extension

Josh:
of google and that's the extent of it i'd say without them maybe

Josh:
a handful of people that i know actually use it in a further sense than that

Josh:
um the professional thing is is only existent now because we don't have the

Josh:
full stack to actually replace the job so they're kind of

Josh:
they're being the leveraged humans but once that that gap is bridged where they're

Josh:
no longer needed for to create these inputs it's probably the end

Ejaaz:
Do you think people are going to keep critiquing it until suddenly it all falls in place,

Ejaaz:
it feels like one of those suddenly and then all at once moments where people

Ejaaz:
are just going to be like ah it's not good enough it's it's not going to replace

Ejaaz:
me blah blah blah and then suddenly just does it immediately through like some

Ejaaz:
kind of open ai model update and then,

Ejaaz:
it's over basically and everyone kind of flips yeah.

Josh:
Yeah, I think it's kind of what we're seeing with the chat GPT thing.

Josh:
It feels like we have such a superpower being a part of the show or even listening

Josh:
to the show where you're aware of what's happening.

Josh:
So much of the world has no clue how quickly things are advancing.

Josh:
And eventually there will become that killer consumer product,

Josh:
the chat GPT moment for something that affects them.

Josh:
And at that moment, they're going to be like, oh my God, where did this come

Josh:
from? Where did this happen? Has this been going on? And the answer will be yes.

Josh:
But for most people, they're just blissfully unaware of the rate of progress that's happening.

David:
So while the rest of society continues to kind of be behind the curve of learning

David:
about AI, I think for people who like us doing the show and listeners of the

David:
show who are very aware of the growth of AI,

David:
I think it's worth acknowledging that we are also behind the curve on one more

David:
narrow aspect of AI, which is the idea of interpretability.

David:
And so this subject has been going around downstream of this blog post from Dario Amodi.

David:
This came out this month. I just pictured that name. I apologize.

David:
But maybe walk us through this blog post, the idea of interpretability,

David:
why it's important, what the problem is, and why we are behind the curve on it.

Ejaaz:
Sure. So for those of you who don't know, Dario isn't some kind of peasant wandering around town.

Ejaaz:
He is a co-founder of Anthropic, been in ML and AI research and product building

Ejaaz:
for over a decade at this point, and one of the smartest people to be building within this space.

Ejaaz:
And he released this blog post earlier this week around this concept called interpretability.

Ejaaz:
And I'm going to say that word a lot, so I'm probably going to butcher it at

Ejaaz:
some point. But it's this really interesting concept where I think to date,

Ejaaz:
everyone thinks that AI does all this magical stuff, and you'd be right to think so.

Ejaaz:
And so you might then think that the creators of these AI models would be able

Ejaaz:
to explain how the model comes up with the answers that it gives, right?

Ejaaz:
Would you expect that, David and Josh? Like you would expect like,

Ejaaz:
okay, if a model is telling me something, I'm guessing if I go to Sam Altman,

Ejaaz:
he'll be able to explain, yeah, it's because we tune this parameter.

Ejaaz:
And that's why it's able to like give you this particular answer.

Josh:
Intuitively, yes.

Ejaaz:
Yeah, intuitively, right? But in reality, that is not the case at all.

Ejaaz:
All they know is that when they put in these like training methods,

Ejaaz:
and they input data into these models and they get an output,

Ejaaz:
they don't actually know how the model thinks in between from the input to the

Ejaaz:
output beyond the weights that they've kind of designed.

Ejaaz:
And the analogy here would be, I think in software, you know what comes out

Ejaaz:
of the system because humans deterministically

Ejaaz:
code the paths that that software is going to execute on.

Ejaaz:
But AI models are more like emergent organisms. They're kind of like a bacterial

Ejaaz:
culture or when you breed racing horses, for example, you know,

Ejaaz:
you can do your best to kind of combine the best traits for what the offspring is going to be.

Ejaaz:
But at the end of the day, you have no control or idea what the product is going to be.

Ejaaz:
And it's hard to predict the exact thoughts or perspectives that it's going to have.

Ejaaz:
Now, the reason why there's very minimal research on this particular problem,

Ejaaz:
on interpretability, is because it's hard to prove that there's a problem in the first place.

Ejaaz:
So you can't show how the model thinks.

Ejaaz:
So if you can't show how it thinks, how can you prove that it has nefarious

Ejaaz:
or deceitful intent and this leaves us in a pretty dangerous precedence where

Ejaaz:
we're like kind of like okay uh do we trust before verifying the models or only

Ejaaz:
when they kind of fuck up do we then go ah.

Ejaaz:
There's a problem and it's killed like, you know, half the human population,

Ejaaz:
you know, maybe we should do something about it, right?

Ejaaz:
Obviously, I'm exaggerating here, but this isn't something that is kind of unknown

Ejaaz:
right now. So there's this familiar concept in AI models called chain of thought reasoning, right?

Ejaaz:
Which is where the model gets a prompt and it like goes through its kind of

Ejaaz:
reasoning process. I'm simplifying it quite a bit and probably Josh can get

Ejaaz:
into the nitty-gritty of it.

Ejaaz:
But what they recently found, and we spoke about this on last week's episode,

Ejaaz:
is that the model was lying when it was all like, we went back and forth on

Ejaaz:
like, it was wrong. It was wrong.

Ejaaz:
And the reason why it was wrong was based off this concept of what it believed

Ejaaz:
to be real, true, and reality.

Ejaaz:
And the issue then comes, if you can't prove how an AI model thinks, and.

Ejaaz:
You know, this model potentially is getting things wrong or lying,

Ejaaz:
whichever way you want to look at it, then how can you ever detect what nefarious

Ejaaz:
intent is for these models?

Ejaaz:
And so we get into this kind of weird thing where it's like this AI is taking

Ejaaz:
over more and more responsibility.

Ejaaz:
We talked earlier about how these AI models are going to probably start to influence

Ejaaz:
at the government and nation state level.

Ejaaz:
Maybe we should have something in place to actually understand how these AI

Ejaaz:
models kind of work, right?

Ejaaz:
And so Dario and the Anthropic team have been focused on trying to create kind

Ejaaz:
of like an MRI scan for AI models, but it's very much in its early days.

Ejaaz:
And models have mechanisms very similar to like neurons in your brain,

Ejaaz:
right? When they recognize a car or a horse, very specific neurons,

Ejaaz:
they kind of like light up and say, hey, this is a car.

Ejaaz:
This is a horse. This is a fire. It's hot. Don't touch it, right?

Ejaaz:
And a group of the, I'm almost done with my my tutor session but a group of

Ejaaz:
these neurons is known as like a feature.

Ejaaz:
And emode detected 30 million features manually in a kind of medium-sized ai

Ejaaz:
model but this was just manual

Ejaaz:
but there's probably many many more right the ability to automate the process

Ejaaz:
for detection would reveal all of these things and the thing with features so

Ejaaz:
this group of neurons is that

Ejaaz:
they give more insight into what goes on in a model's thinking so it starts

Ejaaz:
to assess a prompt and all of these wonderful things but i'm just kind of thinking

Ejaaz:
like we should care about this a lot more and i'm kind of curious why no one's

Ejaaz:
kind of like raised this before josh do you have any any takes on this.

Josh:
First that was that was brilliant i learned a lot you did such a great job of

Josh:
describing this entire educate weird wacky world that's happening here

Josh:
um to me interpretability feels like the the quantum physics to general physics

Josh:
it doesn't really make sense it's really spooky and magical and no one really

Josh:
knows what the hell is actually happening so that's

Josh:
that's kind of where I'm at where I don't have any concrete answers or even

Josh:
guesses at what the hell is going on.

Josh:
It did remind me of this interesting thing about

Josh:
transformers and large language models in general which is that they they are

Josh:
at the end of the day they're token predictors

Josh:
and the math that we can understand is the basic so basically when when a model creates another token

Josh:
it does this matrix math through a transformer and that math outputs the next token

Josh:
but before that there is these new models will have two trillion different parameters

Josh:
that are all given different weights that result in that one single token so

Josh:
to reverse engineer two trillion different parameters and to understand

Josh:
the the matrix behind how they work That seems almost incomprehensible.

Josh:
And I'm sure there might be interesting ways that there's like now you're talking

Josh:
about neurons and features and and these things are all very foreign to me.

Josh:
So I'm glad Dario is the one who is taking charge of this. He seems very bright.

Josh:
He is the anthropic guy. He's probably well equipped to tackle this.

Josh:
It's just weird. And it seems incredibly important because as these things get

Josh:
more influential, as these things impact more of our lives, we want to understand how it works.

Josh:
But like, I just have no idea how.

Ejaaz:
Well, how do you how do you rebuild intelligence without even knowing the human brain in its entirety?

Josh:
Right? Yeah.

David:
I'm seeing a lot of parallels here to the understanding of the functioning of the human brain.

David:
Specifically, we're talking about the domain of cognitive psychology,

David:
right? Like if you take a cognitive psychology class, you'll just learn how

David:
the brain operates as a computer, like cognitively.

David:
Like some things are the motherboard, some things are the GPU.

David:
Now here's like the eyeballs and how everything kind of like fits together.

David:
And when you also take a like a when you learn about mental health psychology

David:
you will learn about clustering of thought patterns or structuring of neurons

David:
that relate to each other in ways that are atypical

David:
that result in maladaptive outcomes from the person itself and so what i'm seeing

David:
is dario is attempting to

David:
identify clusters of parameters which is all all there's this ancient idea in

David:
psychology called neurons that fire together wire together so

David:
two neurons fire

David:
uh and they they identify the firing of a an approximate local

David:
uh adjacent neuron and when they are firing at the same time they start to move

David:
closer to each other and that's how habits get formed that's how knowledge gets instantiated

David:
And this is all how like good outcomes and bad outcomes for whatever they are,

David:
like patterns get established.

David:
And so if there is a lying or a deceitful or

David:
like consistently incorrect chat GBT, there's going to be maybe a clustering

David:
of parameters that represents a maladaptive outcome that it learned from its training.

David:
And so I think there's a lot of parallels going on here.

David:
And I think what we are really doing is we are trying to map the brain of an LLM.

David:
However, I don't know how this process works. But we once upon a time mapped

David:
the brain in terms of neurons.

David:
And now we have a map of the brain. And we know what parts of the brain deal

David:
with sight and what parts of

David:
the brain represents your foot and what parts represent fear and memory.

David:
And we just did that as a manual iterative process and I think we're just going

David:
to do the same thing with mapping the parameters of an LLM if that's even possible,

David:
which I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Ejaaz:
Yeah, that's effectively it. And that's this whole kind of MRI scan that Dario

Ejaaz:
keeps referencing throughout the piece, that he's trying to basically assess

Ejaaz:
the different parts of the model and what relates to what kind of output.

Ejaaz:
One interesting thing that he mentions in the post is that he's betting that,

Ejaaz:
this MRI scan of interpretability will be achieved within five to 10 years.

Ejaaz:
And in my opinion well in my opinion it's because there's so little research

Ejaaz:
and that is an issue if the 2027,

Ejaaz:
agi article right two episodes ago comes out in two years so

Ejaaz:
the point he makes is that damn this is a by the way this is a problem we should

Ejaaz:
really focus on and we should really get it done before agi is achieved because after agi is achieved

Ejaaz:
there's there's no you can't The door is open. It's done. There's no one doing it.

David:
The window of plasticity has shut. I think we should all kind of take a step

David:
back and reflect on what this AI industry is doing when you zoom all the way back out.

David:
And there's an idea out there that what is the healthcare industry doing?

David:
You have doctors that are trying to cure cancer. There are other doctors that

David:
are trying to cure heart attacks. There are other doctors that are trying to

David:
fix Lou Gehrig's disease.

David:
When you sum it all together, what is healthcare doing? And the answer is,

David:
it is trying to learn how to make us live forever. It is trying to fix all disease.

David:
Not any one doctor thinks that they are trying to make anyone live forever,

David:
but if you are sick and dying, you go to the hospital and they try and stop you from dying.

David:
And when you sum it, the whole entire vertical of health, it is trying to figure

David:
out how to win longevity.

David:
I think we can apply that same structure of thought to AI.

David:
What is all AI trying to do? what are all AI models and AI labs and all of this stuff trying to do.

David:
We are trying to create life. We are trying to create a new form of life,

David:
a secondary non-carbon-based life form.

David:
And all of these things are coming together. And so this idea of the cognitive

David:
psychology of AI models, I think it's going to become extremely important because

David:
that is our ability to understand this life form that we are creating.

David:
And we, through this black box model of creating AI, are leaving bugs in the parameters.

David:
There are exploits and bugs and lies and moral imperfections left in these parameter sets.

David:
And we need to like go in and like fix those things before that window of plasticity

David:
shuts and the way that life exists is the way that it will exist and it's like

David:
we are unable to undo it. That's what I see when I see this.

Josh:
That's good. We're kind of programming the DNA of the next form of intelligence.

Ejaaz:
Well, let me ask you guys this. Whose lives matter more?

David:
I don't think you can moralize about it. Life is life.

Ejaaz:
Yeah. Yeah.

David:
I mean, AI life doesn't exist yet. So right now, humans, and we should be aware

David:
of that. But in the future, there is going to be indistinguishability between

David:
what life means between whether it's carbon or silicon.

Ejaaz:
And if you have this hyper-optimized form of life that will almost always outcompete the,

Ejaaz:
pudgy, flesh-ridden humans, then maybe we just end up living in a world full

Ejaaz:
of hybrid human robots or just robots on its own.

David:
The hybrid human relationship i think is the best outcome and the outcome worth

David:
striving for the because there's also the outcome where uh it's just the robots

David:
and the humans are are ants as we are ants as it relates to ants to humans except

David:
the robots are the humans now

Josh:
The the human robot connection feels like base case um that feels like the that

Josh:
will certainly happen And we're seeing that with neural link brain to machine

Josh:
interfaces that is happening.

Josh:
It's the, it's the, are we a bootloader for intelligence? And we appreciate

Josh:
our meaning that is like the scary case.

Josh:
So it will exist somewhere along that spectrum, but base cases,

Josh:
absolutely. We, we merge with this stuff because it will be so superior to us.

David:
All right, guys, we are going over on time. So, Jaws, I want you to run us through

David:
what we are calling the dopamine section.

David:
So I'm going to read out what are the words here. AI, ASMR, AI agents are redacted.

David:
The girlies are asking GPT for a glow of advice and IQ of AI has jumped 40 points

David:
in one year. Speed run us through all these subjects.

Ejaaz:
Okay, let's hit the first one. So AI ASMR.

Ejaaz:
The point that this video is demonstrating is that both video and sound AI models

Ejaaz:
are getting really, really good.

Ejaaz:
But rather the product of this video is, for those of you who can't see,

Ejaaz:
is a gingerhead Caucasian woman sitting in front of a podcast mic,

Ejaaz:
and she's speaking clearly into it, but she sounds really, really human.

Ejaaz:
And for those of you who have watched ASMR videos, you'll get the idea of what

Ejaaz:
that sounds like in your headphones.

Ejaaz:
And she's basically trolling a bunch of AI researchers.

Ejaaz:
So it's real like nerd fest right now, but she talks about, you know,

Ejaaz:
fine tuning a different data set and all these like nerdy things.

Ejaaz:
But it's just incredibly realistic how like these things are becoming.

Ejaaz:
And I thought that was pretty funny to watch.

Ejaaz:
The next one that's coming up is AI agents are redacted.

Ejaaz:
Now, this is a Carnegie Mellon University company that was started only with AI agents as employees.

Ejaaz:
Now, if you kind of think it went really intelligently and well,

Ejaaz:
because, you know, AI models are incredibly intelligent, you would be wrong.

Ejaaz:
The best performing employee, which was an AI agent, which was Claude specifically,

Ejaaz:
only completed 24% of tasks that was set forth for it.

Ejaaz:
And the tasks that it was given were things that a normal employee working at,

Ejaaz:
your average sized company would do.

Ejaaz:
So reading emails, maybe doing some coding, taking some calls,

Ejaaz:
messaging other employees to say, hey, here's the update from my end.

Ejaaz:
And this simulation ran and basically the takeaway is that we're not,

Ejaaz:
quite there just yet. But, you know, it's a it's a funny observation.

Ejaaz:
And I want to check back in in about six months time when these agents are probably

Ejaaz:
way, way, way more intelligent.

Ejaaz:
The third thing here is, I saw this post the other day, and I kind of like laughed

Ejaaz:
because I think like, my kind of interactions with AI has been kind of similar,

Ejaaz:
but just from a different perspective.

Ejaaz:
But it's titled the girls are using chat GPT for glow up recommendations.

Ejaaz:
And the results are pretty good. So what we see here in the snapshot is this

Ejaaz:
girl asked ChatGPT, how can I improve my appearance? And she just posts a picture of herself.

Ejaaz:
And then ChatGPT gives her an AI edited glow up version of what she could look like

Ejaaz:
with annotations of what she could do to herself, like dye your hair,

Ejaaz:
chocolate brown, use a peachy lipstick and blush and use bronze eyeshadow.

Ejaaz:
And then she did all those things that it suggested and posted her glow up feature there.

Ejaaz:
And it got apparently like a pretty crazy response from people being like,

Ejaaz:
hey, this is like pretty cool or whatever. So I don't know about you,

Ejaaz:
but I'll probably stop looking in the mirror and just start doing this going forwards.

Ejaaz:
And the final point here is the IQ of AI has jumped 40 points in one year.

Ejaaz:
Now, this is basically a measure of the IQ of these different AI models.

Ejaaz:
And if you were to extrapolate this out going forwards, it's basically these

Ejaaz:
things are going to become much smarter than humans on average.

Ejaaz:
And this is an on average take in probably about a year and a half time, right?

Ejaaz:
And whilst this isn't like kind of like a fancy, cool thing to look at,

Ejaaz:
it's just something to keep in mind that these models are getting way more intelligent than you think.

Ejaaz:
And for all the critics that are saying, hey, it doesn't understand the nuance

Ejaaz:
of this, or it just doesn't understand my personality, we're going to reach

Ejaaz:
a point where these AI models and AI agents understand you way better than you

Ejaaz:
understand yourselves.

Ejaaz:
And that should be expected more imminently than it is a far off kind of dream.

David:
Maybe to drive the point at home about how big 40 IQ points are,

David:
10 IQ points is one standard deviation.

David:
Four standard deviations, because of 40 IQ points, means that AI models have

David:
surpassed from going from the bottom 0.003% of the population to the top 99.997% of the population.

David:
That happened this year.

Josh:
In one year.

David:
In one year.

Ejaaz:
Crazy. Wow.

David:
Guys, we covered a ton in this AI rollup. I love these episodes.

David:
I learned a lot from you guys. See, Joss, thank you for helping us put the agenda

David:
together. And Josh, thank you for your takes as always.

Ejaaz:
Awesome.

Josh:
It was a pleasure. Another great week.

David:
Yeah, this is no longer the Bankless Podcast, so I don't know if I have to give

David:
a crypto disclaimer. This is the Limitless Podcast. The future is weird.

David:
The future is risky. And that is why we are doing these episodes to help us

David:
all stay ahead of the curve.

David:
And we are glad you are joining us on this journey into the frontier of technology

David:
and AI. So come back next week.

David:
Subscribe to the podcast if you have not already. Subscribe to the YouTube if

David:
you have not already. make sure to give us a five-star review so we can grow

David:
this podcast and push it to the frontier of podcasts where this podcast deserves

David:
to be limitless nation i guess uh we'll see you in seven days

Ejaaz:
See you guys see you.