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The RIOS (for a Racially-just Inclusive Open STEM Education) Institute presents an interview podcast where Dr. Bryan Dewsbury of the Science Education And Society (SEAS) lab converses with individuals who do social justice work in science education and education in general. We hope people enjoy the conversation itself, and consider new ways in which education can be transformative whatever your situation may be.
Welcome back. Welcome back. We we are back here. Episode two season three episode two. I'm taking none of these episodes for granted, Zigef.
Bryan Dewsbury:Just very glad we keep doing this, and we have another wonderful conversation getting up today. You ditched me. Did I? You did. And you made me record this thing.
Bryan Dewsbury:I mean, okay. Technically, it's it's not that hard to do. Right? You you gave me the instructions. It's not
Segev Amasay:rocket science.
Bryan Dewsbury:We did it in the studio, but let's say, Segev had to go and do a thing. So it was maybe the first time I I recorded with somebody while you were not here.
Segev Amasay:Without my guidance.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay. How did I do?
Segev Amasay:You did pretty well, actually. Okay. It was just making sure one mic was up, the other mic was up, and then just press Okay.
Bryan Dewsbury:You don't need to tell them the instructions because then I don't sound as smart. Like, when you make it when you give them tell them that it's easy instructions, then it doesn't look like what I did was very technical, and I do appreciate that.
Segev Amasay:Well, you put me on the spot there.
Bryan Dewsbury:Anyway, I mean, Juan made it easy. Juan Ramirez Lugo, our guest today from Universidad de Puerto Rico, Rio Piedras. I think I my accent was good saying that. Good buddy of mine for many, many years doing science education work, a lot of training programs, and and he's he's so easy to talk to. And I and I I don't I want to spoil the episode, but I love how we can have in and out of academic life, personal life.
Bryan Dewsbury:I really think you will enjoy this conversation. And it's important to me or maybe it's a special thing to me, the way in which he kind of brings in higher ed life science life in Puerto Rico and all of the kind of many layers, geopolitical layers that that brings in. And I think it has there's something in this episode for for everyone, for students, faculty, for anybody who who is interested in just personal journeys. Welcome to Knowledge Unbound. Welcome everybody.
Bryan Dewsbury:I have with me in the studio Science Education and Society Knowledge Unbound funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. I have with me doctor Juan Ramirez Lugo from the University of Puerto Rico, Rio Piedras. I feel like the name of that is testing my ability to do to roll ours several times in a row which I'm not typically bad at but but that's a challenge. You're doing good.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:You're doing good, Brian.
Bryan Dewsbury:I'm doing good? Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's that's the that's the read the affirmation that I need.
Bryan Dewsbury:You know, Juan, I I I don't quite know where to start with you but I know and you know this because I've been reaching out to you now for two years. Yeah. That that I find your story remarkable. I've known you for several years now in in different capacities. I know we share a a a deep, deep love for undergraduate education.
Bryan Dewsbury:And I I I I remember, you know, over the years, we've we've talked. We've had several conversations, and and you you shared with me elements of your journey that have led you to to the very diverse set of projects that you are part of. Right? And and and perhaps maybe that's the place to start. So so maybe just tell them.
Bryan Dewsbury:I don't like to tell my my guest story for them. I want you to introduce yourself in as extended way as possible as possible. Alright. You know, Puerto Rico, how do you get into science? How did you get where you are now?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:That's wonderful. Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me and I'm very excited to finally get here. It has been a while, but, you know, with with our busy schedules and, you know, on your world tour, so it's hard to it's hard to get get here in the same room as you, but I'm really excited to be here. And and especially with you, you know, we've shared, so many moments in different, throughout our, you know, journeys as, you know, as colleagues and friends, and I'm happy to, be here and share with your listeners a little bit more about me.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So as Brian said, I'm from Puerto Rico originally. I'm from the West Side of the island from Mayaguez. I grew I grew across the street from the university, so the university the University of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez.
Bryan Dewsbury:And people may not know that UPR has like 10 campuses.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:The university of Puerto Rico has 11 campuses. Mayaguez and Rio Piedras which is where I'm at now those are the two main like larger campuses. There's a medical science campuses and then there's lots of smaller campuses that are scattered all throughout the island. So I got into science kind of as an accident a little bit. I mean, I've always been fascinated by nature and the outdoors, but just getting into science and doing research was an accident of the fact that my last name is Ramirez and I had a classmate whose last name is Ramos, so we're alphabetically we're next to each other And and she, her mother and father were both university professors.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And we were assigned to do a science fair project together.
Bryan Dewsbury:Literally because your last name.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Because of our last name. So pure coincidence. And in doing that science fair project, I got to go to the university, go into labs. Her mother was a zoologist, so I had the chance to then learn about earthworms and their distribution and did this nice science fair projects. Was pretty much, I mean for me it was just digging holes and then looking for worms.
Bryan Dewsbury:Well how old was how old what year
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I was was in seventh grade. Okay. Like 12 years old or something like that which is a critical age for development of interest for for our students. And I was I was fascinated. I was I I thought it was the coolest thing ever, and then just, know, going to university, dealing with the equipment, doing a graph.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I was like, oh, this is very nice. So after that, I enrolled in University of Puerto Rico in Mayaguez and I just went, you know, knocked on the door of of my my friend's mom's, you know, professor Yeah. Ramos.
Bryan Dewsbury:Did you kinda get to know her when you were doing the project?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yes, I got to know her.
Bryan Dewsbury:Did your mom that is?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah, yeah. I got to know her, and see the the kind of work that they would do and she would talk to me. I remember I found it really fascinating that she had discovered a new species of earthworms and she gave it their that this new species the name. So I was like, this is really cool. You can name something.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:What was the name?
Bryan Dewsbury:Did you do I don't remember. Come on, man. Take some points off too.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But in any case, so I I I started I started the university, and I remember seeing a flyer up for a research. Mhmm. Like, getting paid for your research, which I thought it was like, I'm what? This this to me was something that was fun.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And exciting to do and just an opportunity to learn new things, meet new people, be outside, and I applied for for the money. I just it was the first time I thought, wow. Somebody's somebody can pay me for doing this. Mhmm. And so I applied to what at the time was AMP, the Alliance for Minority Participation.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Mhmm. And they gave me $500 for a year to do my research, and I thought I was rich. And because I was rich because it was like they're giving me money to do something that I'm gonna do anyway. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. And But before you continue, because if this project was seventh grade, right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Uh-huh.
Bryan Dewsbury:And and, you know, you're talking now about enrolling at a university. Yeah. Right? There there are a of years between seventh grade and university, but so it seems like you you maintained your interest Oh, yeah. Through that time.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. And I imagine there were other students at that science fair. I don't know what they went on to do, but I'm I'm just curious as to like, you loved it so much, you just sort of sustained until college, or, like, what was that kind of gap like?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I think that gap was like any other, you know, teenager. Right? Being into a lot of things and, you know, trying and failing many many different things. And, but this was one thing that I thought, something that I found to be as exciting as, like, playing sports or, you know, surfing or things like that. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I thought it was, like, as fun as anything else that I was doing. It's like but I'm, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not gonna be in the NBA. Yeah. Right? I'm I'm five ten, barely.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? I'm not gonna be in the I'm, you know, I'm not. So, I mean, as many good baseball players come out of Puerto Rico, I wasn't gonna be one of them. So, music, my family are mostly musicians. Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I was like, I'm I'm not I'm not a I'm not a good singer. Alright?
Bryan Dewsbury:But but you could play an instrument.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I I play a little bit guitar, but but not not good enough to be a you know, get anywhere. I mean, considering now and this is as an aside. Right? Like, don't singers can't sing either. So maybe I was I I missed that boat.
Bryan Dewsbury:We could tackle that
Juan Ramirez Lugo:we could
Bryan Dewsbury:tackle that question. I missed that boat.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But I I I was exciting.
Bryan Dewsbury:It was fun.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And then thinking it's like, wow. This is something that I find very interesting. You can go to the university, study, learn more about this because I enjoyed my classes when I was in high school.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:My science classes. Mhmm. Because I thought, oh, this is, you know, kind of understanding the world, which was kind of the lens that for me was the most attractive. I can understand things that I see around me. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So, yeah. So that's kind of how I main Yeah. It's like maintain some interest and see something that I also excelled and received some good feedback. Right? Our science fair project turned out pretty good.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Of course, we had, you know, university faculty So, supporting us, but you get some feedback from that and, you know, you're like, oh, you're good at doing this, this and the other. So, when I was gonna go to college, it's like, alright. You know, definitely something with science. I don't know. Biology was always interesting because to me, it was tangible, visible, something that I could interact with.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So, yeah. So that's kind of how I bridged that gap, got to the university, applied to to get some funds, got the money for it, and I was like, wow. This is super cool. And I was doing bioremediation of coffee waste using earthworms. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And as soon as I started taking more advanced courses, microbiology, genetics, then I got like oh okay there's a lot more fun stuff here that's beneath the surface that I'm getting to learn more about in my classes so I also then started reaching out to faculty about doing research in their labs. Mhmm. There was just one lab that I was very interested in in in working with that professor, and, I tell this this story a lot to my students because it's about, like, perseverance and persistence. And I would go up to his lab and I remember like walking down the hallway to the end of hall knocking on the door being super intimidated. He would walk out and I would be like hey professor you know I've never taken a class with you but I've heard about your research I find it really interesting Do you have space for me to work in your lab?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And he would say, oh, that's great. Come back again at the end of the semester because I don't have space. And we did that song and dance for maybe, like, a year. Uh-huh. And I would go even, like, between the semester.
Bryan Dewsbury:I would, like, find an excuse. Second. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Or find an excuse to go ask him a question about something I had read or something. And one day, he would likely that he was, like, pretty much, like, having a bad day or something else in his life. And he just looked at me. He's like, are you gonna continue doing this? He turns around.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:He's like, you see the sink? It's full of dirty dishes. Do you wanna do the dishes? Like, if you're really so keen on working, like, go do the dishes. And I'm like, alright.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Let's go. Walked in, started doing the dishes. And you know, I I did the best job I've ever done cleaning dishes in
Bryan Dewsbury:my life. Oh, you're dish cleaning now, though.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Oh, yeah. No. I've I've I've I've improved. Yeah. But at that, I did the best I I could at that moment.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And just continued, you know, and and he's like, alright. If if you want to come in every Thursday, come in and you can do the dishes. And one day, somebody didn't show up and he needed some help doing a PCR. And apparently, it was very a stubborn PCR they had been working on. I don't know what I did.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I probably messed it up some way that it managed to work.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right. Right. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So it was like, alright. Alright. You gotta do you have, you know, something about you. We made the PCR work. So, sign up for the course next term.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So, you know, to do the research for credit next term. Okay. Yeah, that's kind of how I got I started getting more engaged.
Bryan Dewsbury:So the so the the $500 a year. Did you use that to work with that professor?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:The time that I was waiting, you mean?
Bryan Dewsbury:Well, either one. Right? Because you said at university, you you you got into a program that was $500 it gave you $500 a year.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It gave me money for a year, but I continued doing the earthworm project during that time.
Bryan Dewsbury:Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I was still working on the earthworm project and moonlighting as a dishwasher.
Bryan Dewsbury:Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And then eventually, once you moved on from dishwashing, you decided to do Yeah. Actual science.
Bryan Dewsbury:Exactly. So by the time you graduated, what what did you have more under your belt? You use some stuff or the or the or the well, whatever this guy was for?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:This guy, they were doing, it was really a cool project. They were doing the genotyping of the mitochondrial DNA of a what at the time was a large sample. It was a thousand individuals from Puerto Rico kind of seeing like the ancestry of like you know the maternal contributions to the gene pool in the Puerto Rican population which to me was amazing. We could, like, look back into history using DNA. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:They kind of piece together how the current mix of what we are as Puerto Ricans, how it came
Bryan Dewsbury:to And we know Puerto Rico has a quite a rich history.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It does. So it was, you know, it it there's something about, you know, the the colonialism that's engaged into that. And the introduction of African slaves and how that impacted the gene pool. So we have a lot of, you know, you could kind of piece together this complex history just by doing PCRs and doing restriction digest and running gels and it was like, wow, this is super cool. So So I kind of like continued doing research, applied to other programs, got into other programs and from there you know decided definitely I'm going to continue on this track.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I went into grad school. And I went into grad school more kind of molecular biology focus and I did that for a while I was I studied DNA damage and DNA damage responses using sensors.
Bryan Dewsbury:And this was off the island right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:This was in California. Right. So I went there it was at Caltech so I went there for a grad school spent some time there.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And went and up to now, the the journey is quite linear. Which is where the fun begins. Uh-huh. You know?
Bryan Dewsbury:But the fun there's linear and fun.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:There's fun
Bryan Dewsbury:and linear too, but I I get what you're saying.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And after I finished grad school, very challenging projects. I was very now I recognize that I was very naive, which made me kind of a more risk taking into taking projects that I thought would be easy to solve and, you know, didn't turn out to be the case. But it was, you know, grad school was, you know, a a good challenge. It was a good challenge.
Bryan Dewsbury:So so you thought it was easy, but it didn't turn out to be the case. And and it seemed I'm I'm kinda finishing your thought here. It seems like that I don't wanna call it failure, but it seemed like that experience impacted you deeply. Am I reading that correctly?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:No. No. No. It did impact
Bryan Dewsbury:me deeply. Tell us a little bit of and the reason why I wanna kinda pause on that is because, well, you know, I teach undergrads. I have grad students. Many of the listeners do. I think sometimes, you know, I I see universities and professors struggle to kind of articulate what the grad school experience is like because there's no one thing, right?
Bryan Dewsbury:Some people, you know, are essentially given a recipe to follow on that ends up in a publication and some people get thrown an unanswerable question that there's no way you could finish it in five years. You know? Yeah. So there's all these different flavors of it. And I think the part that gets not talked about the most is like the emotional part of it.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:And just to be there with this point for a second here, you know, I have three degrees. Right? Very had a great time in Morehouse College, two degrees at FIU. Right? And I'm a first generation college student.
Bryan Dewsbury:So especially in the early days of the the these degree pursuit, there's a lot of it. Like, I I'm just happy that I could make my parents proud. Right? Yeah. And and my parents were certainly proud of PGT too, but, boy, I felt that one.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? Like, that one you you you finish that, and it's like, woah. That took a lot out of you. Right? And it's it's it's one it's something I think it's hard to explain to people unless people have gone through it.
Bryan Dewsbury:And I don't wanna make it sound bad, but it's just a thing. So tell me about that emotional roller coaster that you
Juan Ramirez Lugo:The emotional roller coaster, I mean, there there are many things for me. It was, you know, first time out of the island, which in itself was different, different culture. I purposefully wanted to, like, go to California because it was far, but then it's like, then it's far. So again, very naive notions that you have at the moment, but you go with it. And then I go into a program that it was like very challenging program.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:All my peers were like super high achieving in their all of their institutions. I definitely felt a huge burden of impostor syndrome.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Of, you know, what am I doing here? I was, you know, picking earthworms in a sugarcane field two years ago and now here I'm talking to these folks who are, you know, my first meeting there, they were and this is going to date me a little bit. Mhmm. They were developing microarrays. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And the meetings were with folks from JPL because it was like developing the machine to do the spotting of the of the kind of little bits of RNA onto the glass slide. So this is like the this is like the forefront something I'd never heard of. It's like, what am I doing here? Right? So this kind of change in like being really at the forefront, like being thrown into the forefront of scientific innovation without just you know having had that experience it really at first is overwhelming just to handle that.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And then of course you know when you're in grad school there it becomes very consuming that all of your life is very much focused you know it's like your emotional state depends on the on how that gel is going to look like.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right, right,
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So you can have a wonderful day when the protein expresses but when there's nothing there then it becomes, you know, like, your whole past week or month and then you start questioning, you know Mhmm. Why am I here? Mhmm. So I think that kind of repeated failure because it the stakes are very high. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:The stakes for what you're doing become like the core of your of what your being is at that moment. So that is challenging. That is something that it's difficult to navigate, especially I I I got into grad school. Was 21. Oh, wow.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So, I was very young. Wow.
Bryan Dewsbury:And and a PHD program.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:A PHD program. And I was
Bryan Dewsbury:like, I did a master's. I was 23 and did a master's. Like, I couldn't imagine Brian at 21.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And and again, it was like me maturing just simply as an individual and wanting to still be hanging out and not having to feel this big responsibility on my shoulders, but at the same time, recognizing, I'm here. Mhmm. I need to succeed, you know, and you also feel the burden. It's like, I'm I'm the only Puerto Rican here. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I don't I also don't wanna let my people down. I want to be I wanna do felt that as well. Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know, I want to do good by my people because I don't want to just be here and they'll be like, if this guy doesn't succeed, maybe they don't accept the next Puerto Rican who applies.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? Very small selective school. Not a lot of people get in. So it's like, I don't I I really, really, really wanna. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Do as much as I can to.
Bryan Dewsbury:So I I obviously don't want to to make any like direct comparisons between say Mexican culture and and Puerto Rican culture. But but to the extent that in California that population exists. Yeah. Right? And I and at least in terms of language, right?
Bryan Dewsbury:There is that. I I don't know how many people were in that specific area because I think Caltech is kind of near Santa Barbara.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:No, Caltech is in Pasadena.
Bryan Dewsbury:Pasadena. North Of Los Angeles. So then I don't have that right. But but to the extent you may have seen some elements of that community, did it help a little bit? It
Juan Ramirez Lugo:it helped a lot, but here's the thing.
Bryan Dewsbury:Uh-huh.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:The other Latinos that were on campus were not PhD students. They were not faculty. Right? Right. They were the groundskeepers.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:They were the cooks. They were the guys from the animal facility, which were my homies because we played soccer together. Right? Right. So so the guys at the the the university restaurant, you know, and I would go there with faculty.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:They'd be like, hey, what's up? Know? Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:It's hidden cricket. Right. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So right there but Wow. And they were, like, tearing up because they were like, you're one of us, and you're graduating here. Right? So there's that element that also weighed on me recognizing that, you know, there's this burden, not just, like, being me, but
Bryan Dewsbury:Do do you think people around you recognize that? Like, what you just described, right, that intangible relationship, which I'm sure when you got to Caltech, it's not like you set out to find them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:But Uh-huh. We sort of do that thing where we look and we get we get that we get each other.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Bryan Dewsbury:And that sort of, you know, solidifies over the years, you know, to a point where, like, when you walk, like, it's like family. Right? But do you think people are observed and saw how that kind of cultural capital worked itself?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:In a sense, they did and they leveraged it. Like, if we needed, liquid nitrogen, I was the one to make the call because they were like, hey, call your homies and tell them to bring up the liquid nitrogen, you know? Right. So and to me, was fine because in a sense, I felt valued. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So, in a sense of like, oh, I'm contributing something and understanding in itself is like, hey, I I can create these relationships with these people that will be helpful not only to me but my community within the lab. Yeah. Yeah. And kind of bringing out things in me that maybe others around me didn't have but also like like I felt empowered. I mean, this might not be the case for everyone but at least me personally saying, hey.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I I do have some value because there were moments where I felt like, what am I doing here? I'm just here wasting money repeating experiments that don't work. Right? So Mhmm. So, yeah, that was an interesting thing to navigate, which, again, to your point, I was not expecting.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right. And it's not something I was preparing for. It it these are things that through the process, through going through it, you're like, okay.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. This is just what happened.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. This is just what happened. So yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:Well, staying in that lane for a second. Mhmm. Because you you you talked about yeah. You wanna be as far away from from the island, but then you're far away from the
Juan Ramirez Lugo:island. Right? And
Bryan Dewsbury:and so there's the the distance challenge. But then there's the cultural challenge, right? So so apart from this this, you know, pseudo family you you form over time. Like, I I don't know how much travel you did say prior to going to Caltech.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. Not a lot.
Bryan Dewsbury:And and and you know, I even if you did a lot, right? Because I, when I was growing up in Trinidad, I actually traveled to US quite a bit on vacation and but you you I realized really quickly living every day in Atlanta at Morehouse College was a whole different proposition. Yeah. Right? Then popping in and out in the summer.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbury:So so I'm curious as to that that what our cultural shift was like. I guess that's a different kind of distance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It, yeah, it took time. Mhmm. Many things like, oh, people here don't say good morning to each other every day. Mhmm. Or go and, like, shake hands and kiss on the cheeks every day.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Report, right? Yeah. Exactly.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It's like, who is this guy? Right? Walking HR violation.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. He's got in.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So that was different. But all just, you know, the the, you know, the decibels. Right? That difference in the decibels. So that that, you know, it took some time to adjust and some of it you're expecting.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Mhmm. And some of it, you know, but it's different to know than to every day, go through it, right? And of course, the language as good as my English is because I went to a bilingual school and all that. Often, I was like, ah, you know, like, how do
Bryan Dewsbury:you say,
Juan Ramirez Lugo:you know, how do you say that? It gets, it's still there are moments where you want to or express something and say, oh, this is how we say it. You're explaining it
Bryan Dewsbury:to us. Because some of these Spanish phrases wouldn't have a direct translation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, at least it wouldn't sound the same when you say it.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, both ways. Right? There are things you say in English that make no sense in Spanish.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:That it was an adjustment. It was an adjustment and I now seeing it as kind of as on the other side as a mentor and recognizing it in in our students, it's almost like you have to be attuned to these things and kind of switch into a different channel of not just not just like, do you understand the science that I'm explaining to you, but do you get, like, all of the context around it? Mhmm. And are you as an individual managing the whole context around it well, but not just focus on on the science and the new, you know, the information you're receiving or the tasks that you have to do, but, you know, that everything else
Bryan Dewsbury:Are you speaking here in, a research environment?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. I mean both in a both both both both in a research environment which is kind of a more direct contact but also with our students. Right. So, again, me being back in Puerto Rico, I have the privilege of teaching in Spanish and talking to my students in, you know, you know, like so in in in our language. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yet still, you know, they're coming into academia. They're coming into that science field. There are some rules and some, you know, patterns and behaviors that are expected within that space that even though we're talking to in the same language, you know, linguistically. Mhmm. There are, you know, meanings that are attributed to those things that we have to spell out more and not assume that they're understood.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Assume. Okay. Tell me about the nonlinear part. Ah,
Juan Ramirez Lugo:the nonlinear part.
Bryan Dewsbury:Oh, I didn't forget. I was about to forget.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So so I finished grad school, you know, did great, published my papers, graduation with all the folks, everything was fun. So at the time, I was like, all right, I I need some time. I need some time because at the moment I was burnt out and I wasn't clear of what the next step was. Mhmm. Everything had been quite one thing had followed the other, and it had come quite organically.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It was what it was expected, but I think at this point, I also recognize that I had more agency. Mhmm. And that the next step didn't necessarily have to be the expected next step of going to do a postdoc. Right. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Which is kind of the expected. You're in a research track. You finish your PhD. You go do a postdoc in an institution of equal or better stature than the one that you're in. So I was like, all right, great.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:That's not what I'm gonna do. So I took some time off, and I was very clear with, you know, my advisor at the time and my, committee and everyone's like, I'm taking some time off. And at the time I was really into yoga, right? I was in California, kind of cliche, right? I became a vegetarian, started doing yoga.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Uh-huh. So it's like alright, I'm gonna buy a one way ticket to India, Right? So I bought a one way ticket to Delhi. Never forget the date. September 11 of what was that?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:2010. Mhmm. And What what
Bryan Dewsbury:are they to buy it? Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:To find a ticket. Were cheaper actually. That's really what I got. Interesting. Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Okay. So I for about ten months I was traveling through Asia. Mhmm. I had picked up photography as a hobby. While I was at Caltech.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I had a very good friend who was, an engineer at JPL, but on the side did some photography, Paulo Fogardi, shout out. And, and I would he would he was really into it. I would assist him. He would do different things anyway.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Mhmm. So at the time, I just during that time, was traveling, taking pictures, and it that that was the time where you would have a blog. So I had a blog, and and I would write about my travels Mhmm. And and and share my pictures. And during that time, then I found, you know, newspapers and magazines, travel magazine, things that were interested in what we now call content, right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:In just the this that I was producing. So for a time I was a travel writer and photographer during that time and very much also getting
Bryan Dewsbury:You're an influencer. What? You are I was You are an influencer, my brother.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Early days of influencers. This was before Instagram.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right. Right. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So this was, like, web based, like, one point zero influencer.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Don't know how influential it was, but, anyway, I I got paid, so I just it it gave me enough to continue traveling. Yeah. Money I had saved up during grad school that I was very well aware that the money that I was receiving wasn't gonna be forever, so I was very cautious with my spending. And so I did that for a while and then I came back to the West and then I started working. I met some folks, like minded people that were working in organic farming, bio, you know, increasing biodiversity of crops, especially in Puerto Rico because
Bryan Dewsbury:Before we talk about
Juan Ramirez Lugo:organic farming.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. When you look back on the ten months in India, I mean, I I know you you made a necessary chunky fight out of the whole kind of intermediate experience. Yeah. But if you had to sort of pick one or two things that you you learned about yourself Yeah. Or about, you know, where your mind was in that time, what would you say it was?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So the one the one thing the the big value that I got out of it was the space having the space to really really think about what it what it is or what it was at the time that I really was passionate about. Mhmm. And what were kind of my core driving values of things. It's like I'm gonna devote the rest of my life or at least the next few years doing like very intensely working on something. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I want it to be something that I'm very passionate about.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:As passionate as I was about learning science, there were some moments that I was like, why am I really doing this? Who really benefits from me devoting all this time to do more research on cancer. Right. Which was kind of the tie in of the work that we did at the moment. So having that space and that time to think about it and process to me was very valuable.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Mhmm. Because it it was during that time that I recognized that the one thing that I really valued about my past experience was understanding that I had had an opportunity to other than learn more about science, I could learn a lot more about myself and about thinking about the world in a different way. And that had given me opportunities for me to move away from the island for a while to learn and grow in many different ways. So it was like a path for me to be like, I'm in this situation, but I can change that situation Mhmm. With this opportunity of these opportunities that are within science.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Mhmm. I read it.
Bryan Dewsbury:You almost it almost sounds like you you took a meta look. Yes. At the process.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:So you kind of got away from the thing you were doing in the lab with the cells and everything.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:And and looked at what did what did the process afford you as an experience.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:As an experience.
Bryan Dewsbury:Which is a bigger question.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:A bigger question and recognizing there are a lot of people that are supporting me and were supportive of me throughout the process to give me this opportunity. And at the moment realizing now I can be that person to give others the opportunity. I can find a way to put myself in the position to kind of give back what I have been giving, which I saw as a great gift, and then give this on to others.
Bryan Dewsbury:Was there something in your travels that gave you the space to do that thinking? Like, I guess more specifically, and I don't know if I actually did in the past, but did you do Vipassana?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah, I did Vipassana. Okay. I did, I, you know, which is like intensive meditation retreat.
Bryan Dewsbury:Well, Doctor Vijay Bola season one actually talked a lot about that because that was a big part of he he's a medical doctor now, but that was a big part. And it's still a big part of his
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. So I mean, ten days Mhmm. Ten hours a day. Mhmm. You know, one hundred hours of meditation.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It's it's these were very transformative moments.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I spent some time in Nepal at a monastery for a month learning more about Buddhism. Mhmm. And I was fascinated kind of at the intersection of, like, you know, science and Buddhism Mhmm. And kind of like those worldviews which we kind of might perceive as being opposing, but there's, like, lots of similarities in Mhmm. Perspectives, but not necessarily the approaches.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But there's Right. Right. Lots of interesting things that, in a way, challenged me to think that the that the science that I knew was just one flavor of what science could be and that science is many things to many people. So that those were moments. These moments of kind of deep introspection and learning about other things and other, you know, cultures and perspectives were were very, very, very influential.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So that was that was something that was, you know, good about the whole experience and that really shifted my my focus and my thinking about
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:What I was gonna be doing after.
Bryan Dewsbury:I'm gonna ask you about organic farming in a second, but I guess the one thing I wanna I wanna point out, like, I guess I hope you kind of extract from this because one of my critiques, I guess, observations or of of higher ed culture, at least in the context that I know it in The US, is there is a lot of kinda lockstep marching through the whole thing. Yeah. Right? And I'll never forget a conversation I had with a grad student several, several years ago. And she said to me, you know, when I was in high school, I was good at math.
Bryan Dewsbury:And they say, oh, you should do science. Yep. And so she did science. And then she got into college, and she was good at science. And the professor saw and said, oh you're good at science, you should come do science with my lab.
Bryan Dewsbury:So she went to the lab and she did science in in his lab. He says, oh you're really good at science in my lab, you should go to grad school. Yeah. Yeah. So she went to grad school and you know, was doing a PHD and was doing very, very well.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. And a month before she was about to get get hooded. She came to my office because my office was kind of next to where the grad students offices were and she just closed the door and just started crying. Yeah. And she's like, I I I I I don't really know why I'm doing any of this.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. Yeah. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:And and it's not and you might ask yourself, well, dude, you've been doing this for ten years. What do mean you don't know? But but it but it the point is that nobody stopped to ask her, ask her that. No. And she didn't stop to ask herself that.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm. But you never afforded the time to. Right? Yeah. Everything is no.
Bryan Dewsbury:You have to go to grad school right now because if you take time off, you'll be competing against blah blah blah, and you have to get a postdoc right now because if you don't, you'll be competing and then so everybody's just on the the conveyor belt. Yeah. Yeah. Without taking a breath. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:And and how many of us are are are not just asking but giving permission for people to stop and think of your why. Yeah. And not penalizing them for it to
Juan Ramirez Lugo:be back in. Exactly. And and I have to say that during that and and I think you you can, you know, synthesize it in a in a in a great way because it it's you mentioned, like, nobody gives you that time. And I recognize that in taking it, kind of like just taking it.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. I was With some risk. Right? And that's huge risk.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? I was taking a huge risk because the the the narrative Mhmm. That I was listening. And it's like, well, it's great that you're doing this. You know, it's great that you're going out there to find your third eye or whatever.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But you might not be able to get back. Yeah. And I was like, yeah. At this moment, I'm able to take that risk. And again, I had at the moment the privilege of not having any other, you know, dependent or children responsibilities, loans, you know, economic limitations, family members were all, you know, in relatively good health, so I didn't have to take care of anyone or siblings or anything like that.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I had that the privilege of having that freedom to do it, which is not the case for everyone. Right? Right. And sometimes you just need to stay and do the, you know, continue by petting because you need that, you know, you need to pay the rent and you need to do the thing, you know? So I was, you know, somewhat savvy in saving up and doing a few things just to make sure that I could do it.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But it, you know, took some it was an opportunity afforded by privilege but also it was an opportunity that I prepared myself to take on. So
Bryan Dewsbury:was the organic farming back in Puerto Rico?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So the organic farming kind of started throughout my travels because it was like Indian, Nepal, Thailand, Vietnam. So then I did the whole banana pancake tour of Southeast Asia. And, and there I would, you know, kind of everyone into this, you know, kind of trip of it was also kind of into organic farming and healthy eating and all that. And then I went back to Puerto Rico. I, you know, knew some folks or started meeting some of them, you know, even though I I wasn't there, you know, I still had, you know, my family and friends there, so I would go back every so often.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And then went back and started working on that. Also, you know, it's worth noting my mother's side of the family, they're farmers.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right.
Bryan Dewsbury:Okay.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:You know, historically, sugarcane and everything. So there were like, that was something that I was involved in and also with my initial projects with the bioremediation with the earthworms had that tie in. Like I had, you know, some I'd been engaged in that somehow at some point and it's like kind of getting back to that. And from that, it came another opportunity to go back to Asia, which was the best job I've ever had is that folks in Puerto Rico wanted to diversify the crops that we have like edible crops. Most of our food is imported, very little we produce, so it's like we need to produce more food and different kind of food.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I met a group of very unique individuals who were very much into a tropical like exotic fruit type, exotic for us here and in The Americas, but mostly was like Asian fruits. Right. Very expensive to buy online and things like that and you don't know the providence or you know the quality. So they thought it would be a better idea to send me because I'm, you know, I was a writer, a photographer, biologist, etc. Let's just send this guy who could also talk to, like, officials in the agricultural departments and get the permits and all that done because I, you know, there were some
Bryan Dewsbury:This this feels like we're back in Juan get the liquid nitrogen territory. Exactly.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So it's like, you you you have some some, you know, skills, some contact. So I think you're the person to go do it. So but it, you know, the liquid nitrogen was
Bryan Dewsbury:like, alright,
Juan Ramirez Lugo:but this is like, this is a lot more fun than just getting a tacrolimus nitrogen. So I went to Borneo for four months.
Bryan Dewsbury:Oh, wow.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And that was mind blowing because it's really at again, trained as a biologist, you're kind of really saying all this talk about biodiversity and speciation and you know, origin of species, the whole thing, you're there. And that was just incredible. So it was a four months that were more think that was I I feel that that was more professional growth in the sense that I had to be, like, very organized. I had to keep, like, very tight logs of everything that I was doing. Every and and then, you know, I would collect the seeds, eat a lot of fruit, and then, you know, clean the seeds, prepare them for transport, do all the labels, permitting, etcetera.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So going through all of that and then shipping stuff back to Puerto Rico. So while I was there, it's funny that you mentioned Vipassana because before leaving, I had talked to somebody at University of Puerto Rico in Rio Piedras, kind of a friend of a friend, and they're like, you know, somebody was talking to me about you. We're looking for folks to teach biochemistry. Hear you have, you know, a degree. Maybe you could come and teach some biochemistry for us.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And I was like, all right, that sounds great. But I'm going to Malaysia for a few months, so I'll call you when I get back. And while I was there I get an email it's like hey are you still interested because they were planning it was like March and they're planning like the fall term like who's going to teach and they're like are you willing to come in and teach biochemistry? I was like, well, I get back next week. I'll go and talk to you.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And it was one of these moments where I recognized this opportunity really gets me into the place that a few years before I had recognized that that's where I want to be. Want to go I want to go and go get get in touch with all these students and see how I can give them the opportunity that was given to me.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, which is interesting because you you way you're telling this, it sounds like you recognize that, say, maybe at the third phone call, right? But up until that point, you were sort of like, well, yeah, maybe, you know, we'll see.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:We'll see.
Bryan Dewsbury:I'll get back when I get back. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:No. Alright. Because it was really at at first, I felt like I was seeing it from still from my vantage point of being in my existential moment. Yeah. As it got closer, it's like, wait, you know, this is the moment.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:You know, I mean, I took this time off. Well, not the moment because that sounds too esoteric. This is the opportunity that's presented to me at the at right now. And then it's a matter of recognizing the value that there is in that opportunity, like doing something towards taking advantage of that opportunity or not.
Bryan Dewsbury:And one thing I I think to note is I imagine the the Juan Ramirez, if you offered that immediately after your PhD, would have been in a completely different mindset than Iguana Ramirez who was post Malaysia, post India, post, you
Juan Ramirez Lugo:know. Definitely. Right? Definitely. Post post my PhD, I would have been like, no.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I mean, I was at, yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:But you think even if you said yes, right? Even if you had said yes post PhD, it would, like, the way in which you would have viewed what that job was asking you to do, right? Like the language you just use about providing opportunities. Yes. That may not have been with you.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I I would I would have seen I would have seen and and even like that what I did, I would have been like have like a very technical mindset and be like, oh, I can teach these students about all these like new techniques that I learned, you know, whatever.
Bryan Dewsbury:Or even more simply than that, like, this is just what you do when you get your PhD, right? You're right. You're going to go to a and tell them how to, right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Exactly. So, I was approaching it from a very different perspective. So, so there I am then after these three years of the kind of hiatus from academia standing in front of a classroom of a 90 upper level students at the University of Puerto Rico Rio Piedras, super high achieving, mostly premed, very demanding students, and they're standing there looking at this, like, hippie who's gonna teach them biochemistry. Right? So it's like, alright.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:This is a challenge. This is more than I thought I was in
Bryan Dewsbury:for. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And so I was very diligent in, like, hitting the books and, like, digging back into all of my experiences, bringing them everything that I thought I could be giving them and just bombarding them with content. Just like it was like a storm of just data and information and deriving the Michaelis Menten equation within from scratch.
Bryan Dewsbury:From scratch, like something
Juan Ramirez Lugo:like just like boom, this huge bomb of content that I was dropping on them, and they were not doing well. Mhmm. Of course, they were not doing well. I'm just standing there, like, with a hose.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It's, like, drenching them with biochemistry. And after my first year of doing this, I recall that summer I was like, what am I doing? Like, I was very, very frustrated because I recognized that what I had done for that year was completely useless in terms of the growth of the students and their learning of biochemistry. I felt that I was giving them something, became like you know involved with like student organizations and being their like faculty advisor and then you know kind of telling them like hey you know start looking for these opportunities get more engaged in research there's this you know research training infrastructure here on, you know, on campus that it's like really robust. It's been around for a long time, like take advantage of it.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So in that sense, I felt like moving students towards doing research, I started taking my early steps in doing that. But in terms of teaching, was like, this is a disaster. So I go online and I look for what can I do? Like, how can I teach better? You know, hey, Google, how can I teach better?
Bryan Dewsbury:This is now web two point zero. Yeah exactly.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:How can I teach better? And I start you know digging and scraping through the web and I find that there is this workshop for community college professors in California that it's about effective teaching active learning and it was Kimberly Tanner and I did not know who Kimberly Tanner was or Jeff Mhmm. But I was like, this sounds really cool. This is exactly what I need right now. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I sent Kimberly an email, and I don't get a response. And then I sent her a second email. And she's like, hey. Sorry. I haven't responded.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But, I mean, the gist of it was, like, I don't even know how to respond because you're not a California Community College Mhmm. Professor, but you seem to be very interested, da da da. And we start this exchange of information. And I'm begging her to let me go because I I really need this. Like, I really need I don't know what I'm
Bryan Dewsbury:And back then, this was not popular kind of workshop.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. There was I don't know if there was
Bryan Dewsbury:any others other than hers.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:That's why I only found that one. So I was like, I is it. This is it. I found what I was looking for. Please.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Please. Please. And we go back and forth. They go back and forth. And in the end, she's like, you know what?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I can't pay for you to come. We're paying for I can't I don't have money. You know, this is some we're doing with a grant, but it's only to pay for, like, gas or and it's like, don't worry. I'll I'll you know?
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It all boiled down to me sending her an email. It's like, if I show up, will you will you let me in?
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Or will you kick me out? And she's like, if you if you make it here, you can do the workshop. So I I went there. Mhmm. I got there, and I recall, like, me walking up and she's looking at me like, you really came.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:All the way from Puerto Rico to San Francisco, you came for the workshop. I'm like, yeah. I came. I actually, you know, I I found money from the institution to pay for my travel. My brother, who now lives here in Miami, I'm gonna see you in a little bit for dinner.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:He was living in San Francisco at the time, so I could stay I stayed on his couch Right. As I've done many times. We'll do tonight, actually.
Bryan Dewsbury:Shot him all the way. Shot shot him too.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? Yeah. Yeah. My brother Javier, big shout out because his couch has been very instrumental in my journey. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And so I went to the workshop and it was like eye opening. I'm like, wow, core concepts, you know, imposter syndrome, all these things were like really eye opening, backwards design. I remember that blew my mind. And once I was bit by that, was like, all right, this is really valuable. This is is what I have to put my effort and my intentions into at first for myself, but then thinking how can not only I embrace this approach but also have faculty and folks around me also see the importance of doing these you know these practices in the classroom for our students not just standing there and then fire hose biochemistry you know so.
Bryan Dewsbury:But the way I think about it is, you know, it it felt like you got to a point, I mean, in the intermediate period where you recognize the opportunity that you had and who believed in you and then, you know, this job being an opportunity for you to lift as you climb. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But what you didn't have at that point of realization was a how.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? Yeah. So I'm gonna come back to UPR. Uh-huh. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:And I can give these kids an opportunity, but but you you you probably didn't even recognize you didn't have the how until that first terrible year. Yeah. And this is where Kimberly's workshop. Yeah. Excuse me.
Bryan Dewsbury:Was instrumental, right, in saying, you can take that aspirational view and turn it into actual things you can do well in a classroom. Definitely. Definitely. And then
Juan Ramirez Lugo:and then it's like then it was maybe and I was an adjunct at the time. And then it was the at two years, the next two years, I was still an adjunct, and I was just blowing up my classes, starting from scratch, redesigning everything, doing, you know, whatever problem sets. Think pair shares, you know, talk to your neighbor. That whole thing, they're just going through it, jigsaw activities to put together the whole Krebs cycle, you know, piece it together with everyone in the room. And I think around that time is where we met at a at a Gordon conference, which was also for me an opportunity to be like, woah, this community of people.
Bryan Dewsbury:And that was your first one. Yeah. I think of that. 2014, '15 something. Yeah, yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:Think that was the first one for undergraduate biology education research. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So I was like there's all these people that are doing these things and more and learning more about it. So that was really for me kind of a moment of of kind of opening up like of just like, you know, I I want to say like exploding but not that it's just like like the Cambrian explosion. Right. But for me in terms of like all the these new things that I could do in the classroom to support student learning. To better prepare them for careers in science.
Bryan Dewsbury:So tell me a little bit. And I want to be careful when I ask this question because you know, as you know, I'm also from an island.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. And
Bryan Dewsbury:what I don't want people to take from this is like, I'm now gonna ask Juan to to speak for the entire island of Puerto Rico. Yeah. Right? But but your your whole career has been there, and but you've also been connected to a lot of national organizations, training programs, things like that. The other thing I don't want people to take from this is, you know, it's it's it's a cash 22, right?
Bryan Dewsbury:Like, we we come from islands that do struggle with resources to some extent. Mhmm. Especially compared to at least what I've seen at US institutions. Yeah. But but I also don't want the the island to be defined by that, Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:I don't want the first thing people to think of when they think of, you know, trying that anyway. Right? Yeah. Is that, oh, they never have anything. I've had the privilege of being there, being on campus, wonderful people.
Bryan Dewsbury:Talk to me a little bit about doing science, doing scientific research, teaching science in Puerto Rico.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I I
Bryan Dewsbury:I think one thing that's kinda unique with this question is that UPR does have 11 campuses. Right? And I know different campuses talk to each other at different amounts. But Yeah. Uh-huh.
Bryan Dewsbury:But it it feels to me and I hope I'm not overstating here, overstepping here, but it feels to me that you've been at the forefront of, you know, advocating for resources to come to the institutions, for programs, for supporting students to be their best selves. So what has that been like for the last decade or so?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Alright. So the first thing is that I have to recognize, right? And and kind of give props to those that were there before me. Got it. Because yes, we have, you know, limitations.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:We have many challenges, both real and imagined. But that, you know, science in Puerto Rico has been going on for a long time. There are many researchers who have very active research programs, do a lot of training of students. I mean again I was a product of that of being a student that was trained by folks there. So it's something that has been it was, you know, created and cemented and and kind of for a long time.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yet when I get there, I recognize that there is still more to be done. Right? It's like there is a there is a foundation here that has been very important to many people, but there's still a lot more that can be done. And also it needs to adapt to whatever changes that there were at the moment. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:This talking now about, like, 2015, 2016. And there were training program and there still are, fortunately. Still are some training programs that train lots of students. And if there's one thing that is a huge strength in Puerto Rico has been the kind of research training environment and our program. Like, all of our programs, Mark back in the day, Rise, LSAMP.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I mean, we were shining examples of like how to do research training for our students because it's like a huge, you know, collection of very devoted individuals that have devoted their careers to creating these programs and training students. So that was there. So I see where you're coming, right? We don't want to frame this as a deficit, but I'm, you know, I'm instead saying this is a big asset, right? Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. Research training in Puerto Rico is like a huge asset and also because we have a robust research infrastructure, people doing really cool stuff that might not be transgenic mice doing optogenetics and things that are like million dollar experiments, but there's like lots of people doing really cool stuff, asking very fundamental questions about science with maybe non traditional organisms or different environments that are unique to our, you know, to our geography and to our position. So definitely I recognize that there we, you know, we have a lot and I think that that was something that's been important to put like, getting me to the position where I'm in today Mhmm. Is understanding that there are lots of assets here. We have lots of strengths that we can leverage and also highlight Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:To have others also recognize this value of what we're doing. So that has been, you know, kind of a way of framing it that has been very informative and, you know, not only informative, but it it it's it it invigorating for me. Right. To think about it in the way that we might not have a lot of things. We might not have electricity on some days, but we do have a lot of people who are willing and and super capable of doing amazing work.
Bryan Dewsbury:But it's critical because if if you looked at it as just like we're permanently broke, right? Like if you had a scarcity mindset Which
Juan Ramirez Lugo:we are. Which we are. We're broke. Like fiscally we're in a terrible position.
Bryan Dewsbury:If if if that scarcity mindset would just sort of dominate your daily thinking, then there's there's kind of no way to get up and No way. No enjoy way. And do your do your job.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:No way. This is I'm I'm I'm jumping ahead, but I was until recently, I was an associate dean. Mhmm. And and I resigned, like, a couple of weeks ago. Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And one of the reasons because that it was so difficult for me to have that position was that I was continuously dealing with folks in a scarcity mindset. Mhmm. Because it's again, and I see these administrative positions you are most of what you're doing is putting out fires. Right? So you're so problems are problems are coming your way, like, you know, like, the bio chemistry hose was now a problem hose pointing at me.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Like, just
Bryan Dewsbury:See how it feels.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:See, this is how
Bryan Dewsbury:it feels.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? Just like, crisis, crisis, crisis. Yeah. And it was like, I can't like you we have to see what we have, you know, really focus on the assets that we have and see how, you know, what we're good at and lean on that as opposed to saying like, oh, we don't have this, we don't have this, we don't have this. And of course, everyone's coming to tell you what they don't have.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So you're like, you try to help for a while, but then at some point it's like, you know what? Thank you, but this is not for me.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. But just throwing in that act though because I can see how that is just very debilitating. Like, working from that scarcity mindset is just something that, you know and and and I I think and kind of to tie it into the present moment and maybe something in more general that everyone can see themselves in is the current moment with funding. Mhmm. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:We're definitely going through a very, very, very tough moment. Mhmm. Very tough moment. I've, you know, we have lost some grants and one of them was LSAMP, which is a huge loss for the island. Huge loss for the whole nation.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:This was something I have to say. You know, personally, it's been very deeply devastating for me.
Bryan Dewsbury:Yeah. I know. I mean that. Because that's the part doesn't get talked about, right? Like the emotional connection.
Bryan Dewsbury:Oh. Many of us, most of us have to the work we do and you wait, you go from one day to the next and that just, it no longer exists, right? How do you process that?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So just you know right to tie it back into my story that first time I saw that flyer that said AMP was the alliance of minority participation that then became the Louis Stokes Alliance for Minority Participation right so that that was what first, you know Right. The first time I got money from it. And Right. I was the last director of the program before it got canceled. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? So I've to me, that was like I was so proud of being able to Mhmm. Being like, you gave me the first chance and now I'm leading this program, giving chance to hundreds of students every semester. Right? So to me, that was my full circle moment.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And then it's gone. So Right. That's been difficult. But as difficult as it is Mhmm. At the moment, we still are here.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right. We still hear, you know, we're doing research however we can. Students are still in the classroom waiting for us. You know, we had this conversation in Unidos, right? They're still there waiting for us to go and fire their biochemistry.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So definitely something to consider, right? At this moment, even it as difficult as it is and as hard as emotionally some of these jolts have been, you know? Yeah. Recognize what we still have and the importance of of continuing that with kind of a growth mindset.
Bryan Dewsbury:How how is your relationship? I I mean, I know the relationship between the island and the mainland is, I don't know. I'm just gonna say interesting for that. Yeah. Right?
Bryan Dewsbury:It just depends on you. Talk to what the situation is. Right. But one of things I remember, I don't know why this particular comment stuck in my head when I had visited to you visited UPR. Uh-huh.
Bryan Dewsbury:And you and I were talking in the cafe, and you you had said you were one of the first people who came onto the campus after hurricane Maria.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Oh, yes.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? And, you know, without going into too much detail, I remember not just your campus, but the the island and the what happened after that, how the Mainland responded, and and of course that sort of fed into just as bigger conversation about how that political relationship is. Yeah. You know, by the time I got to the campus, you know, it it looked fine. You were thriving.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? But to to the extent that, like, being a part of that distressing period was kinda somewhat indicative of of how how the the broader relationship with with US Higher Ed is. So talk talk to us about that whole period.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. Yeah. There are two sides of that coin.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? There's two sides of that coin. One side of it is the neglect. Mhmm. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:The feeling neglected. Mhmm. And there were some some, you know, the the the federal government that there there, you know, you could see that there was like some lack of intention into getting things right. And that was painful Mhmm. And still is painful and, you know, kind of enraging.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But then there's the other side of the coin. Right. And the other side of the coin were all the the folks and all the societies, you know, professional societies, associations, everything that came out and supported Puerto Rico. Right? So you see that and recognize that some parts might show that neglect, right, or disdain for Puerto Ricans.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. Yeah. But then there's an, you know, and in in particular, I feel very grateful for the scientific community. And it was one of these moments and and you know we talk about feeling part of the scientific community and and scientific identity and all these things. And this was one of the moments for me when I felt part of a of a community.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:People stepped up. That people stepped up. Mhmm. And we received lots of donations. At the time, I was the president of the Caribbean division of AAAS, the American Association for the Advancing of Science.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And they reached out to me and they said, what do you need? Mhmm. Mhmm. And at the moment, I didn't I mean, I needed water, electricity, food, everything. Right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right. So I'm not gonna be like, hey, AAAS, you know. Right. I had basic needs to attend to. Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And they recognize that, and they said, hey, this is what we're gonna do. Tell tell us if it's okay. We're gonna put out a call for fundraising on Science Magazine to raise funds from AAAS members so we could send to scientists in Puerto Rico. I was like, wow. You know, that was like an enormous help, not only, you know, and then, you know, the donations started rolling in, then another other association started like, we'll match whatever donations that people give and then eventually we wound up with a good chunk of cash.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right. That then we did like a, like kind of like emergency, like micro grants for researchers to when we got the power back, could buy basic reagents so they could start up and give like a thousand, $2,000 here and there so we could impact the most amount of people. Yeah. And that was incredible. That was that was, you know, that is something that really transformed like, also my relationship with AAAS and with other organizations because it was like, alright.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:These people really, like, came out and helped us out. And it's something that, again, now Mhmm. Kind of making the parallel to now. We're still here for each other. Our community is still here.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:We're here to support. So we might not
Bryan Dewsbury:You don't forget stuff like that.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. No. No. No. No.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:I mean Mhmm. And and and again, not only the institutions, but the individuals within the institutions who were there advocating for us and saying like, hey, you know, if if there's a moment to do it, it's now, right? And and most of them were small donations made by triple AS members, you know, like $20.40 dollars But
Bryan Dewsbury:it adds up.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But it adds up. So, it was something that was very transformative for us. So, so our relationship with the states, right? You know, politically, kind of between governments, I think, you know, there's, of course, it's a colonial situation. There's no no no no, not saying that because that it is what it is, right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And there's, you know, the huge asymmetry of power and you know, now talks about, you know, that they want to like pull the plug on Puerto Rico and let us, you know, drift into the Caribbean or whatever. So, there's that part.
Bryan Dewsbury:Mhmm.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And that is, you know, one thing that we have to deal with all the time. Right. On top of everything, we have to, you know. As an existential threat. An existential threat.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. We're rolling with the punches. Yeah. With that, you know, for, you know, for the last one hundred and twenty something years that you know, we've been a US colony. So, we deal with that but recognize also that the the the folks here, institutions, you know, the organizations are are are very much supportive.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:They're always excited about taking our students, you know, and I'm always ambivalent about that because, you know, taking away our our biggest treasure which is our people but again, it's opportunities that are given to our students and you know, some of us come back, some of us go on to bigger and better things. So Mhmm. Definitely, it's something that, you know, as you say, it's interesting. Right. We we take the good with the bad.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:So
Bryan Dewsbury:So so I'm gonna let you all with this one. Do do some of the kind of meditative approaches to your your your thoughts on life, has that now kind of does that now infect how you teach, how you, you know, do research, engage in your professional work? Yeah. I'm nodding vigorously. Those who can't
Juan Ramirez Lugo:see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Definitely. Definitely. And I and I think I mean I don't think you really have to go to that extreme of locking yourself, you know, for all that amount of time but just taking a beat, you know? Mhmm. Taking a beat and also recognizing, you know, the the, you know, the humanity and the and the foes that you're dealing with, right?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:You know, it's in the end, you know, science, which, you know, the with the hierarchies and the positions and everything, it sometimes gets, you know, impersonal, but it's it's humans. It's people who you're dealing with. So recognizing that humanity is important and many of the times, it just you need to take a beat. Yeah. You need to take a beat.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And and and definitely, as you were mentioning earlier about, like, the the old versus the the post third eye one, like, that difference, I I I would have been I don't think I would have been and this is just a me, a personal thing. I would not have been able to deal with the the uncertainty, the pressures, the chaos, the frustrations, you know, because this all sounds wonderful, but there's a lot of, you know, frustration and struggle that there is within it, but, you know, having that strength to overcome Right. A lot of a lot of that comes from just being able to take a bee, take a deep breath, have a lot of empathy for for other than for yourself. I think that I think the self that, like, the self care part of this has also played a big role. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It kind of going back to, like, my burnout. Like, I recognize signs of burnout in myself now as they're happening.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And and maybe it's just me, but I I I approximate burnout quite often. Mhmm. Let's say once per term. Mhmm.
Bryan Dewsbury:Right? Mhmm. That you approximate. You see it coming.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:That's the big difference. Coming. And I recognize like patterns and behaviors. For me is procrastination. If I start to procrastinate a lot, I need a break.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Mhmm. Right? That's my tell. When I'm like Right. I should be doing something, but I'm not doing it.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:It's like, okay. Mhmm. Finish what you have to do because you have that commitment and then find some space at some point for you to take a break. And it could be it could be a morning and and I've had moments where I tell, you know, folks, I was like, hey, I need a self, you know, kind of a a mental health morning for myself, right? Maybe it's my excuse so I can go surfing.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:But it's that moment of just saying like I need to unplug for a bit. Yeah. Just like chill out and and and get reenergized. Because we're under a lot of stress. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:And especially right now. Mhmm. I've been a lot more vigilant of the of the science. Because it's not only the physical and mental burnout but also the emotional burnout because of all the things that we're going through right now. Right.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:As I, you know, when the day that May 2, when we've got that notice that the LSAMP was going under, that was a really tough day for me. There are lots of tears were shed that day. Yeah. And and days after and all the meetings after, you know, there were moments where it was like, alright, you know? Yeah.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:This is very difficult. Recognize not just me. It's like the folks who were, you know, our our staff who had to be let go and all the students, and, you know. Yeah. Of course, I, I, I go into thinking, oh, all the potential that we're losing into the students in the future who are not going to receive these benefits.
Bryan Dewsbury:But, but I'm, I'm glad that, you know, I, I don't want to make light of this because it's not good, right? I've lost 3 grands, you know, I think we all, we have some kind of kindred spirits in in this darkness, right? But but but I do also recognize a similarity in the sense that we we we realize that walking away from our work is not an option. We're willing to consider. Yeah.
Bryan Dewsbury:And in order to to to keep doing this, we we have to keep the empathy, keep the reflection, keep keep the mental gymnastics, right? That that we do too. So just, hey, happy you spend the time with us today. Oh, definitely. I think I think a lot of people will take heart in what you've shared.
Bryan Dewsbury:You know, we in this podcast, we try to take the implicit and make it explicit, and I think you did just that. Thanks so much, man.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. I mean, what do
Bryan Dewsbury:you Next time you're bringing your guitar. Alright.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:What do you expect with this wonderful host? You know? Thank you so much for the opportunity, Brian.
Bryan Dewsbury:No problem. Awesome. Knowledge Unbound is brought to you by the RIOS Institute. We are generally funded by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Thank you to our guest today, Doctor.
Bryan Dewsbury:Juan Ramirez Logo from UPR for sharing his story with us. Always supported, always produced by mister Segev Amasai. Segev, I think you'll love this episode particularly. You had a kind of a stronger reaction, I would say, in a good way, when we were going back and forth on the transcript. No?
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Yeah. I mean, I guess you could say I do have quite a few things that struck out to me as I was listening to this episode. First, it's definitely the holy grail for middle school science fair kids because of his experience with dealing with earthworms and a bunch of other things, but more so about Honoramides Lugo's personal life experience, having traveled through Asia Mhmm. Like, a year, just practicing different forms of meditation, just trying to, you know, rediscover himself because
Bryan Dewsbury:Were you a middle school science kid? No. Unfortunately. I mean, that's fine. It's not unfortunate.
Bryan Dewsbury:Don't don't apologize for, you know, when you were 12 or whatever. Things were different. Yeah. But you're right, though. Like, it it's his journey kind of from then, you know, how it how it sort of build and, you know, it's a little bit of luck, right, like the whole last name thing and how we ended up becoming close to the professor who introduced him to science and all of that stuff.
Bryan Dewsbury:But but I think, you know, one takeaway from me, and I I hope people who listen to this episode really get is this being in a constant position where you're asking yourself questions about your purpose and knowing that the answer to that question may take you off the expected track for a while and having the bravery and the confidence to be off that track because you know that your journey is in service of something bigger. And in nutshell, I guess it encapsulates for me what I hope good education can provide people is the opportunity and the encouragement and the internal motivation to stay in service of finding that purpose. I hope you find your purpose this week. I hope you find your purpose for the rest of the semester, your academic and professional and personal life. Thank you for joining us and continuing to be excellent teachers.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Science in Puerto Rico has been going on for a long time. There are many researchers who have very active research programs, do a lot of training of students. I mean, again, I was a product of that, of being a student that was trained by folks there. So it's it's something that has been, it was, you know, created and cemented and and kind of, for a long time. Yet when I get there, I recognize that there is still more to be done.
Juan Ramirez Lugo:Right? It's like there is a there is a foundation here that has been very important for many people, but there's still a lot more that can be done. And, also, it needs to adapt to whatever changes that there were at the moment.