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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown. The podcast where pastor and author Matt Brown debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening, and enjoy the show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome back to the debrief. It has been a while. I've been super sick, and it looks like my friend Justin Knowles has the plague today. Got kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. I really don't think that's the excuse. Do you do drugs?
Justin Knowles:I got kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I know. I know because you gotta sign your name when you get Nyquil. Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You gotta show ID.
Justin Knowles:I gotta do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's because guys like you. Yeah. That's what's happening. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So this is Justin Knowles. He heads our entire youth department. So if just to put that in perspective, that's 13 campuses, 13 youth ministries, 13 youth pastors.
Justin Knowles:I'm the youth pastor of youth pastors.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. You are the king of the idiots.
Justin Knowles:The the yeah. It's a Wednesday night is a party for all the right and wrong reasons I'm missing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Actually, I love Wednesday nights, and if you have kids, you need to get them to Wednesday night at one of our local campuses. It's amazing. And if you're not near a campus, move. People move for all kinds of reasons. It's a great Move for a church, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's it's a great, great reason. So this is Justin Knowles. He is married to a lovely wife. Yes. How many years
Justin Knowles:have you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:been married?
Justin Knowles:Kristen and I have been married for eleven years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She's way too pretty for you. Not sure. Agreed. Was she like 12 in your youth ministry? No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No. Sorry. That's that's in Arkansas.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Yeah. We're talking if there's a question like that on this. No. Yeah.
Justin Knowles:We've been we met in 02/2005. So we met after I graduated high school, and we dated for four years, friend zoned for four years before that, and then married for eleven and have two kids, seven and four.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I told my son, don't be afraid of the friend zone. The friend zone can lead to the end zone. So That's You know?
Justin Knowles:I am a living proof of that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. You know, so it's funny. When I first was the youth pastor, I was like 23 years old, and my wife would have been she'd have been 20, and we went to summer camp. And I remember we had just got married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And somebody said, so your church allows you to, like, date kids in your youth group? And I'm like, no. And so just to put this in perspective, my wife was a sixth grade teacher, and her first day on the job, as she came into the cafeteria, the lunch lady made my wife get in the kids line. Because she like thought she thought my wife was a sixth grader.
Justin Knowles:I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:understand. Like, that's what we looked like when we got married.
Justin Knowles:So short background?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She girl. I just think she looked really young. Okay. We both looked really young, but I was three years older.
Justin Knowles:Gotcha.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I was 24 when we got married, and she turned 22 the next day. Mhmm. So Okay. Yeah. So but, yeah, we we looked really young, and I don't look really young anymore.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I
Justin Knowles:think you look great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you. I love you. You just got a raise. Mental race, not an actual race. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, the economy's tough. Alright. So this is my buddy, Justin Knowles, and he's super nervous because the debrief is awesome.
Justin Knowles:This is my first time. Yeah. Which is great. I'm I'm excited.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it may be your last time, if you're not good. We will
Justin Knowles:find out. Yes. You will find you let us Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So at the end of the show, I'll look at Bearded Brian, and he's gonna give you a thumbs up or thumbs down.
Justin Knowles:God bless you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Yeah. Well, Bearded Brian's tough. It's tough to get a thumbs up, you know? Alright.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What do you love about youth ministry?
Justin Knowles:Youth ministry. So this is my seventeenth year in youth ministry. Mhmm. Some church hired me when I was 20. Wow.
Justin Knowles:Thank God for Yeah. Yeah. Thank God for them, but also really brave of them to do so back then.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Justin Knowles:But what I why I haven't, like, stepped out of it at all. I never had opportunities to do other things, but I love it because I think it's a front row seat to life change
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen.
Justin Knowles:Is the best way that I could. I think adults are way more set in their way. They're a little bit tougher, harder to like navigate crack, but I think students naturally just come with like, a lot of them are curious Mhmm. And when when there's something that happens when a student understands the gospel for the first time Mhmm. That's just like, man, that is addicting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I love it.
Justin Knowles:And so that's why I do it. And I would look at our, like, have mission fields
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:But we have like local mission fields Yes. That youth
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now you're preaching.
Justin Knowles:Youth is is a mission field, like all our schools and communities of students who don't know who Jesus is. Like, that's that's what excites me is reaching students who are far from God and bring them near to God. Yeah. That's my favorite.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So after my Easter message, I can't remember which sermon at Hunter Park, but a teenager came up to me and he goes, man, I loved your sermon. He goes, where did Jesus go after he rose? And I was just like, this is so great. Yeah. I was like I was like, to heaven, at the right hand of God the father.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he goes, cool. Yeah. He's like, cool. Was
Justin Knowles:like, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He just learned that at our church. But so many things that, you know, I think so many of us that grew up in church just think everybody knows these things. Right. And for him, that was life changing. And I asked him, I said, did you give your life to Christ today?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he said, yes, I did. And so here's what I would say to everyone out there. I know a lot of people are frustrated with teenagers. You just have to remember, they don't know who they are yet. And so literally when you're 12 years old and you hit puberty, their whole brain is scrambled, and they're relearning who they are, and it's God's biological process to detach them from their parents so that they will enter into society and become one day hopefully productive adults.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's a God given process that's very frustrating and very hard to understand. And this is why as Christian parents, we need to sympathize with so many kids that are identifying as gay and transgender. And why is that? They don't know who they are. They have no idea, and so you have so much of the left leaning media, well, this might be who you are, and so what we need to humbly say as Christians is not to put that down or belittle that, but say, hey, there's a God in heaven, and he has a different story as to who you are, and that's life changing and transformative.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I love that. Alright. So camp is coming up. Who should be thinking about sending their teenager to camp?
Justin Knowles:Every parent who has a teenager Yeah. Is is the right answer. And it's and again, it's there's something different about when you take a student out of their normal routine Mhmm. Out of their normal environment, out of their normal rhythms, and they we go up to a mountain and they do the things that they're supposed like we as Christians are supposed to do, which is like Yeah. Pray, worship, be in scripture, be in community, have fun.
Justin Knowles:They do all those things for a week up at camp. Yeah. I love it. And I think a lot of students meet Jesus for the first time in a real way
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:Up there when they're out from their normal distractions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I have this dream of never unleashed this story. Oh. So people are always like, why do you have so many stories? Because I'm old. So but this is a true story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't even know if my daughter's heard this. This is a true story, and I'm releasing this right now to the first time for the press.
Justin Knowles:Okay, I'm ready.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay? This is a true story. So when I was 15 years old at summer camp, it's the first time I ever heard God's voice. I kid you not, God spoke around a campfire, the wind blew, the flame increased, I mean like Acts chapter two, and I heard God, before I gave my life to Christ, I heard God say this, You're called to ministry. I had a calling to ministry before Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think about Jeremiah. In your mother's womb, I called you, I knew you. Like it was such a profound experience. So this is what I don't even know if my daughter knows. Would this would be I was 15 years old.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This would be 1986. Well, I'm not gonna say that I can't because I don't want anybody going up there digging this up. I created a time capsule, and I buried it, and I've never unearthed it. I know. I've never unearthed it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's a time capsule by a tree. I put a Twinkie in there too just to see if
Justin Knowles:it would survive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I wrote a letter to myself at 15 years old of what my life would be like serving God.
Justin Knowles:We have to go.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. So I was thinking, I had this vision of all of our youth leaders taking Southwest Airlines up to Sacramento, going up to this camp, seeing if we can unearth it, and unearthing it, recording it, and reading it to you guys to know that there are future Matt Browns that are a pain in the butt. They don't go to bed. They're farting, you know, doing all the things that, you know, we're doing. At that camp, one of my friends brought brownies for everybody, and he put chocolate Ex Lax in them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was the eighties.
Justin Knowles:Classic.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So now now it would be like a federal case lawsuit. Like, he'd go to jail, be on some hate list. But in the eighties, you know Just the do that. Yeah. And so we all had diarrhea for two days, because, you know, I was 15 years old.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't eat one brownie, you eat them till they're gone. But at that camp, I heard from God and got diarrhea, and God spoke powerfully to me, and it changed my life. And it's so interesting, I came home from camp, and another church in Sacramento called my parents and said, hey, I'd like to hire your son as a youth intern. Now my parents said no. And I keep saying, my mom, meaning well, wanted me to enjoy high school.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was terrible advice. I did not need to, as a high seven, high three, did not need to enjoy high school. And so I always think about what my life would have been like had I got on the path that got called to me sooner. So I didn't get on that path, ended up really screwing up my life till I was 21 years old, show up at Harvest Church, Greg Lloyd preaches, I changed, gave my life to Christ, and jumped immediately into ministry. But there is a time capsule at a summer camp, and it still exists.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I've always wondered, and I buried it in Styrofoam and duct tape, so it's gotta be there.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. I I'd be super interested.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, so wouldn't that be fun? I've always had this like fantasy that we all go up there, we bring a guitar, we dig it up, and we just say, look, as crazy as these kids are, as hard as they are, you have no idea what their impact is gonna be beyond you. Right. And so the youth pastor that led me to Christ is an atheist today. Interesting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's an atheist. He has a podcast, he hates God, hates the church, but our sovereign God still used that knucklehead, and he's a knucklehead, to lead me to Christ, right? And I am so grateful, so, so grateful for that weekend, and that atheist is probably sixty years old now and hasn't lived for God in forty years. I'm so grateful I got the two year window that he's like, you know what? I'm gonna follow Jesus, and I'm gonna do this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it changed my life, man. It changed my life. And I'm still friends, Raj and Kim. I was literally texting with Raj this week. We're reading a book together and talking about the second half of our life and what that's gonna look like.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I'm still friends with some of the people that were at that camp. Mhmm. And and good friends, good people, solid people, and I'm grateful for that. And so I would just say, everyone listening, the reason I donated all the proceeds from my book to summer camp is because I believe in summer camp. I believe I believe in the church of God, I believe in the people of God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when you get your kids away from all this crap and you just get them along with Jesus just for a week, He can change lives. And I would encourage every parent, know it's $600 a kid, but we're trying to raise $80,000 in scholarships to get kids to go. So I think we got about 10,000 with the book. Do you know what the final number is? Last I heard it
Justin Knowles:was just over 10 for that. We're like 80,000 short as of the recording today of our goal for the year for sending out kids, which is
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:pretty cool. So if you wanna donate, please do, and we'll get that money straight to those kids. It's just so so important that we send our kids to camp, and we help out a lot of our families that have three and four kids, and they live in San Bernardino. They live in Moreno Valley. And so think about that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:$600 a pop is just not like, that's rent money. That's, you know, a Costco run. Mhmm. So we wanna make sure that we can do that. And that's not our price.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the price. And don't belittle the camps. They're doing the best they can. It's a really, really expensive time to be alive right now, but we're alive.
Justin Knowles:We are alive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We need to thank God for that.
Justin Knowles:And we're going to summer camp.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. All right. We're going. Okay. So what was one of your favorite stories that came out of camp this past year?
Justin Knowles:This past year, my favorite story, so we do a summer youth summer internship. Yeah. And we where we take about we have 20 high schoolers that intern Yeah. All summer long.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:Part of doing that is they they get to go to camp to serve on the middle school week and kids week, and then attend summer camp for for free on their own.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Love it.
Justin Knowles:And my favorite I think my favorite thing was one, I got to see these high schoolers be used by God. Mhmm. And I think for a lot of them was the first time that they also felt that they could they're like, oh, maybe ministry is a thing for me. Yeah. You know?
Justin Knowles:And some of them were like, this is definitely not a thing for me. Yeah. You know? And that that's what it's for. It's like to allow those conversations and things happen.
Justin Knowles:So I think I was like like one of them, she she was placed into randomly a middle school girl's cabin, didn't know any of the girls Mhmm. But she took on she took it on like a champ. Girls followed her around like little ducklings and then walked one of the nights where there's a worship experience night Mhmm. Where there's like, write a letter to God, there's worship here, there's feet washing, communion, like, all these different kinda experiences, and she's sitting down washing her girl's feet
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:And explaining to them as a high schooler, these middle middle schoolers of what this means and what it represents, and I just go like, yeah. That that right there. Mhmm. Like, that's the best thing to do. And at the same time, my other favorite part with all those interns, because I said, guys, summer camp's gonna be one of the hardest weeks of your life of their up until this point first in for they're like, no no, it's gonna be so much fun.
Justin Knowles:And all of them are like, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And I'm like, yeah. But isn't it awesome?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. What week is summer camp this year? It's in June.
Justin Knowles:June is kids in middle school, and twenty sixth to the thirtieth is high school.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I'm super excited because it's always in July when I'm on vacation. So this year I'll be able to come up.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. It's gonna be amazing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So And let me just say this, I believe the best pastors, the best pastors you'll ever have in your life were youth ministers. I just believe that because kids are not easy to love. If you can learn to love them, you can love church people. Yeah.
Justin Knowles:We even say for like to volunteer and stuff, it's just like love Jesus. Yeah. Like them. You ain't gotta love them. Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Like love Jesus and just like students.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh my gosh. I was at Disneyland with my family, and we went to what's the ride that you don't like, the dropping one? So my daughters don't like Guardians of the Galaxy. Guys, I think it's the greatest ride ever invented. If you ride Guardians of the Galaxy with me, I laugh from the first drop till the end.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't mean laugh. I mean belly roll, cackle, snort, occasionally toot. Yeah. I mean, it is that that ride, I don't know what it is. I like falling.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I like that feeling. I think it's fun. Anyways, but we got on the ride, and there were three teenage girls in the line with next to us. And let me tell you, the BO was Fierce is the wrong word to describe these three girls. They had done Disneyland hard that day.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I mean, it was just just imagine the worst foot smell you've ever smelled. It was so putrid, and I was just like, Lord, I have to have to love these girls, man, but I'm in line with them, and my eyes it was like I was peeling onions. It was that bad. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And they were they were cute girls. Like, were cute, but they smelled like the devil.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Now imagine times 10 in a middle school boy's cabin at summer camp.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When I was a youth pastor, we did stinky shoe contest, and every year we did it a girl would win. And it was always a little tiny cute girl that's never worn socks in her life, and she would take off her shoes, and if you could make the host pass out, like like, you win. So, alright. If someone doesn't have a teenager in their life, how can they how can they help?
Justin Knowles:If they don't have a teenager? Yeah. I would say, I mean, one of the best things that you could do to just invest in teenagers and you want to is to serve. Yeah. So like if you're not on a team already, you should be jumping into a kid's classroom, wear a blue shirt, or Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:Apply to be a leader on Wednesday night, and literally lead students in as they're processing their faith. Yeah. And like, you don't have to even know all the Yeah. The answers yourself. You could still be processing your faith.
Justin Knowles:You should be a little bit ahead of them, obviously, in maturity and knowledge and stuff, but the best part about it is that what you could do is walk alongside a student who is curious. Yeah. And that's how one of the best ways that you can invest into this next generation. And it might be hard at first. I always tell leaders when they jump in, it takes a good three, four months to like actually feel like they're like you.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Because they're like, are you gonna stick around? Yeah. You know? They're like kinda weird.
Justin Knowles:Sure. As they
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:should be.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. And once you stick around, they realize that you're there to stay and you generally care for them, you are down to answer questions, you're down to have be a little goofy and have a little bit of fun, then they're like, man, I'll I'll listen to you Mhmm. And you know, hang out with you and want to hear what you have to say.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love it.
Justin Knowles:Invest. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love it.
Justin Knowles:That's that's one of the best ways, I think.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright. Let's jump into the questions. This is from Annie Moss, and so she is our most She's here. Gifted listener. She back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. She's back from San Bernardino, California. I'm 16. I hate the name that my parents gave me at birth. I've started to ask people to call me by a name I prefer, but my parents told me that God gave me them my name, and I need to obey them like the Bible says.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I don't think that that applies to this situation. I just want advice. I'm open to if I'm being a stupid teenager, but I don't think I am. As it took me as it took me dwelling on it for a long, long time to decide that changing my name would help me to become a happier and more social person, since I wouldn't talk to new people since I was embarrassed to introduce myself with a name I didn't connect with. Have you heard this before?
Justin Knowles:No. I just Yeah. I mean, you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know, this is Annie. This is a It's a new one. New one. Yeah. What do you think?
Justin Knowles:Yeah. I mean, I think one, like that she said that she's open Yeah. To hearing feedback and thoughts and being like, maybe I am wrong. Yeah. So I think that's a good start as a teenager, you know, to be like, hey, I might be wrong in this, and I'm down to hear some ideas of why.
Justin Knowles:But I would say I think it's a there's a balance here, because it doesn't sound like there's anything has to do with like gender or
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:anything Yeah. Is. Like So sorry, that was in the notes.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. And so what I was like thinking is that there definitely is a balance between like God gave you your parents, and there is an expectation that we are to honor our parents, and what does that look But I think at 16 though, you also, there's nothing wrong with having real conversations with your parents. Mhmm. And to have an open dialogue with them and say, hey, maybe they don't understand why Mhmm. Or the what or the process.
Justin Knowles:All they hear is we feel God gave you your name. Yeah. And then you don't wanna be called that, so therefore something is wrong. And I think that there's a balance of I definitely think you should still honor your parents. Yeah.
Justin Knowles:That's you're under their house, God has given them to you. They sound like they care Right. You know, based off this. But then I think there's also like what is is going on with you? Think my question to her would be why?
Justin Knowles:We didn't hear any why in there. But so like, why do you wanna change your name other than like, because you feel more comfortable? Is that the only reason? Is there something beyond that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Maybe you need to help explain to your parents what that looks like. And I would say I would try to like challenge her one, to have a conversation with her parents alone. And then maybe it's a, hey, there's a third person. Like, it's a second party if it kinda gets crazy. And then work on the balance of like honoring, but still being honest.
Justin Knowles:Mhmm. Because there's that, you know, there's not giving in, there's not giving up. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the honoring part of it.
Justin Knowles:So that's where I would start. I don't know beyond that question of like Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that's great advice. I would just say to all of our parents, you know, out there, I think that we're just in a time where kids have a lot of permission to change a lot of things, and that's just something that's changed in society. So as a parent, right, you're not raising kids in the world that you lived in, and so it's very different. I grew up in a very multiethnic school, and I had a lot of kids that came from like Vietnam, Cambodia. They were called boat people at the time because countries wouldn't take them, so they lived on a boat for a couple years, some of them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And some of those people are like my, you know, my favorite friends. Like my doctor, Doctor. Viendone, he would have been considered a boat person, came here, you know, passed medical school in a second language, which just makes me angry because I couldn't pass medical school in my first language. But, you know, there'd be kids like, you know, their name was like Phuc Nguyen, and they're like, I go by Tom. So I was always like, I'm gonna change my name.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I had this African American, thicker, bigger, I guess is the right word. Bigger is the more appropriate word. Bigger, older black woman, and she was my English teacher, and I was like, this is my moment. I'm gonna change my name. And I said, I wanna go by Stephane because my middle name is Steven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she goes, nope. Ain't nothin'. She goes, ain't nothing wrong with Matthew.
Justin Knowles:That's the name your mama
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:your mama and daddy gave you. And so I was like, that was my moment. It was the eighties. I was like, well, guess that's it. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can you imagine now a teacher's like, nope. Yeah. And so she just told me no, but I didn't like my name either, Annie, and I know your name's not Annie. I wanted to be called Steven. And I don't I think there's just a part of all of us that's uncomfortable when we're high schoolers and junior highers with who we are.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're uncomfortable with our height, our weight, our color of our skin. We're uncomfortable with our smell, our name, you know, we're uncomfortable if we're too rich, we're uncomfortable if we're too poor. Like, that's just a part of it. And so what I would say is, when you're an adult, Annie, you can call yourself whatever you want, but right now, as a 16 year old, what I would do is just honor your parents and go by that name and try to understand, you know, maybe why they named you as that. Now, I will say this, we did have a kid in our church whose parents named him Judas.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I kid you not. And I just looked at the dad, was like, really? Like, And here's what I told him. Said, go by Judah, because it really means the same thing. Judah's just a more positive name.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the dad's argument was, look, it's a biblical name. I'm like, yeah, but he's the enemy in the Christian story. Like, you know, you don't name your kid Grinch. You know, that's not what you name your kid. And so I really, really felt for that kid.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like, just look, go by Judah. Go by Judas. You know, like Judah Smith. Like, that's a cool name. So just, you know, change it a little bit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I don't know what that kid ever decided to do. And again, there's nothing wrong with the name Judas. It's a beautiful name, but in the Bible, it represents a character, you know, who is not good. And so I think that's just something really heavy for a kid to feel or to care about. And from time to time, you know, let's say you get a name and your parents love that name, but that guy becomes a serial killer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, you know, I might want to change my name, or your name becomes a derogatory term. That could happen, your last name. So or, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of reasons. And a lot of my Asian friends, they just changed their name because nobody could say fook. Like, no like, and I know now we can, but in the eighties, people were like, puh puh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, it's not a p, bro. It's, you know, it's a fuh. And so it just was the eighties was very white, we were very confused and very lost. And now we're just so much more adept at ethnic names, I think, nowadays. So I would just say honor your parents, really pray through, and what I would say is God wants you to be comfortable who you are regardless of what your name is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like I said, unless it's Judas. Right. I mean, that one I was like, okay. And there are, you know, weird names. Like my good, good friend at our church, his name was Jack.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We called him Grandpa Jack. That wasn't his real name. His real name was Rudolph. Well, you can imagine why he would change his name from Rudolph, because in the 50s, Rudolph the Red Nosed Ranger. But he was born in the twenties, and his sister was in love with an actor named Rudolph Valentino.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So in the twenties, Rudolph was
Justin Knowles:That was the name.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A great name. Yeah. You know? Kind of like Adolf before World War II. Know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Nobody wants to be Adolf post Hitler. It's just a rough name. And so even if it's a family name or whatever else like that so so there are some exceptions where I would just tell the parents, look, can we just have a little dose of reality? But if it's just like me, you don't like Steven, you you know, hopefully you have somebody that just says, look, roll with it. And then really try to seek to understand why your parents feel the way you do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then if you're the parent, really try to understand it's really hard to be a teenager right now. I I I can't emphasize enough. I thought being a teenager was hard in the eighties. I'm so grateful there wasn't social media. I'm so grateful I wasn't bombarded with images and shows.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, when I was a kid, there was nothing to watch. I watched my son scroll. He will scroll through Netflix for thirty minutes because there's too much to watch. Yeah. Like, I don't understand that world.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He has more content with the scroll of his finger than Blockbuster had in the whole store.
Justin Knowles:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Remember that? Friday nights up on this Oh,
Justin Knowles:I loved it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Great. Okay. So this next one is Kaelin. Apparently, she likes her name. I like how you spell it, Kaelin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's really cool. How do I battle depression as a teen and still keep God in my life? I bet you hear this a lot.
Justin Knowles:Mhmm. Yeah. I feel like this is something we just did a series on this actually here on a on a Wednesday night. But I think like, one, I think even wanting a relationship, Kaitlyn Kaitlyn, while you're still in the deeps of, like, the depression Yeah. And still, like, seeking after it, I think that's always that's a good first step.
Justin Knowles:Like, that's a that's awesome that you're already thinking about that, and you're wanting that even though you don't feel like it's happening. Mhmm. The fact that you want it, I think, is awesome. Like, I love love that. And so thanks for being honest, and know that you're not by yourself.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Because a lot of times with what I hear from students is like, one else feels this way. And when you actually if you were to take a poll, I would say a majority of the students probably feel this way. Yeah. And so you're not doing it by yourself.
Justin Knowles:And so I I kinda I wrote down a few things, Caitlin, of just as, you know, preparing for the question of of things, okay. If I was sitting down with you and we were meeting on a Wednesday night and you were to tell me the same thing, these are a couple of things that I would say, like, hey, these are things that I would keep in mind Mhmm. Over the years of learning and have gone through this myself. Mhmm. Right?
Justin Knowles:One one of the first one is just like stay stay connected through prayer and through reading scripture. I think a lot of times that when you feel like you're far away from God, the two things that go away are prayer and scripture, when in reality, those are the things that you bring you closer and have more intimacy with God. Mhmm. And so whether you feel it or not, that's that could come. But consistency in those things, like, that's how you hear God's voice the And I would say the second part of it is, because I always say that God speaks through main three main ways where you're feeling the most.
Justin Knowles:It's through prayer, through scripture, and through people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:And then so surround yourself. So if you attend on a Wednesday night, I would be I would bring this up to your small group, your discipleship group. Be open and honest, be real with them, and allow them to pray for you and to encourage you. Surround yourself with people who could do those things. And if you don't come on a Wednesday, Kent, what are you doing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Come Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Like, a whether you know somebody or not, reach out to me. Shoot me an email. I will get you connected into a group and to make sure that you don't have to do this by yourself, and that you'll also see, hopefully, by you leading out in your vulnerability, you'll see that you're not alone because other people will come. Yeah. You know, and be a part of that.
Justin Knowles:I would say too, there's nothing wrong with seeking professional help. Mhmm. And so like, if it's to a point where you're like, man, I can't I don't know how I could do this if you get into this like bad bad bad thinking, being open and honest with your parents about it is huge, and seek it. There's nothing wrong with that, and to to seek counseling. And they can give you way better tools, like we could help like maybe on spiritual things.
Justin Knowles:I'm not a counselor. Mhmm. I'm not a therapist, our small group leaders are not therapists. So if that's what you need, by all means, please do so. And then also, one of the things that I think is lost, and you talk about this, you know, in our healthy series, is that I don't think students don't understand is like the whole do physical things Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Eat healthy. Hello, sleep. Like sleep is a real thing that you need to be healthy in those things, and that could mess with you mentally. And so like if you're doing those things, like check on what those look like. And just I think, Kaitlyn, just remember it's okay not to be okay.
Justin Knowles:You know, the whole vision of our church is And to be so just be real with the people that you trust. Continue to pray, continue to read scripture. I think it's okay to ask God why, it's okay to ask like, God, don't feel this, but I wanna be obedient in this, so can you help me feel this again? And I think that he will reveal himself and experience that in a in a way, and he'll he'll walk you with you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:through the whole process. Amen. Yeah. That was a great answer, and I have to say, you may have the greatest mustache of all time.
Justin Knowles:Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, if your last name was Erp, I would say amen.
Justin Knowles:Would yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Erp? Yeah. Like, were talking, and I was like, oh, that's really good advice, and then I was just staring
Justin Knowles:at You got your distracted by that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Distracted.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. That that this isn't like a mistake. This was a joke. I had a beard, and then I shaved it into a mustache,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and my wife's missing his cowboy hat. Okay. So Kaelin, I think a lot of people struggle with this, and I just I just encourage you to do what he said. And parents, if you're listening, you know, I was I was watching this podcast the other day just talking about what happened in the eighties. Everything went low fat, and so what that meant is to get fat out, they put sugar and carbs in all of our food, and it's just completely disrupted our minds.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so sugar impacts every organ in your body, including your mind, and it just makes you feel bad, and so much of the food that we eat is affecting us. And especially when you're growing, you're a teenager, you need to be eating healthy. And unfortunately, teenagers, that's probably the least healthy that you will ever eat in your life, and it's when you need it the most. And the other thing I would say is get out, take a walk, you know, get some fresh air. Man, if you got a pool, jump in the pool.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Try to get up and get moving. And the sad thing is when you feel depressed, you don't wanna do those things. That's the thing that's really, really hard. And for any parent with a kid with depression, what I would say is the best thing you could do for your kid is noncompetitive sports. Competitive sports can actually increase anxiety and depression because it's so performance oriented, they don't enjoy what they do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So competitive, not competitive, sports where you're having fun, you know, and you're enjoying something. So skiing, snowboarding, swimming, hiking, you know, right where there isn't a finish line, but you're enjoying the exhilaration of your body moving, that's just so, so important. So Kaelin, I'll be praying for you and I love the way you spell your name. All right, Jess from Beaumont. How should the church handle individuals who have had inappropriate relationships with underage kids?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ban them from church or forgive them and have grace? So let me give you a little context here. This woman says that she came from a church where a man engaged with a relationship with a teenage girl, you know, how much involvement should they have? So I can just tell you at Sandals Church, and Justin's going to tell you the same thing. So we have very, very strict rules with underage kids, there's no dating, there's no connection, you know, that's not to happen at all.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're not to spend time alone with opposite sex or the same sex if that's a problem. I mean, we have to protect in all ways, you know, and this goes for guys and for girls, You know, sinners are all genders and all sexualities, and so we need to learn that, that we have to protect our kids. And, you know, the last thing that kids need is to be sexualized by their mentor. It is destructive, it is terrible, and so we do the best that we can. So what do we do?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would say is each case is an individual case, and we work with both the student and the person who's done this. Unfortunately at Sandals, this has happened in the past. It's happened with people that I know, and it was really, really hard to walk through, and it was shocking, and it was really, really hard to manage. And I would just say, for all of us who think, you know, we're protecting our kids, you don't ever really know who somebody is. I mean, right, darkness hides.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's just what it does, and so that's really, really difficult. So what I would say in this situation is if if there was an issue with kids, they would never work with kids again. And I've actually lost a friend at Sandals Church where we had an issue, and I just said, look, this is like, God forgives you, I forgive you, you're never gonna work with kids again. And so they left our church. And so I understand that, but my number one duty is to the safety of our kids and the protection of them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Having said that, you can't protect kids from everything. I wish you could. Evil people don't raise their hands. Hey, I'm evil. I wanna mess So with these we do the best that we can.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so here's the thing. This doesn't just happen in the church. This happens in every industry where adults work with children. So we have to be careful about this in Little League. We have to be careful about this in the church, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, teachers and students, coaches and students, and youth pastors and students.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not just the church that deals with evil. Anywhere where you have people, you have to deal with evil. And so what I would do is, what I would say is we would deal with it. We don't protect pedophiles, we do not protect people that commit sexual sin. God does care about them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Know, people that make mistakes sexually, God does care about them, and God loves them. But in the instance of kids, our duty is to is to protect the victims. And so I think that's something our society's lost. We've forgotten how to protect victims. We need to protect people who've been wounded and hurt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I'm sorry, Jess, that this has happened at your past campus. And what I would just say this is I think Christians are good people, but they're also naive. And so because they don't believe this will happen, they're not prepared for when it happens. And it's just really, really hard, and this issue wrecks churches, families, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, I mean, you name it, it just wreaks havoc because we want to believe the best in people, and we want to believe that adults are there to protect kids. And so we do a background check, you can talk about that.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. I mean, just I was gonna say, like, even just to join our team Yeah. In general is a pretty lengthy process. Yeah. Like, takes about a month or so to even go from application to be in a classroom.
Justin Knowles:Like, we do it there's application process that we have to do live scan, background checks, they have to complete a b five zero six, which is like mandatory training Yeah. Like from California State Univer or California State like law. Yeah. And then they will come, they shadow with somebody, trying to get a vibe of how how if, you know, because other leaders could be like, they're kind of weird or there's something off about them. And then only then after they've gone through all the processes, the interview there's two, three interviews that go along with it with background talking about, oh, well, you said this in the application.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. What do mean by that? And all of those things come to play that obviously we tried to do our best to protect our kids. And like you said, evil people don't raise their hands. So we could do our part and do what we could do best in that, and I think I'm really confident with how we do that, and our volunteers are great.
Justin Knowles:I'd say that helping work through all that stuff, and our safety teams, you know, all of them are fantastic at making sure that we're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:good to go.
Justin Knowles:I think
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:one of the really incredible benefits, and I don't wanna toot my own horn here, but I'm gonna toot it. Toot toot.
Justin Knowles:Yeah, do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Of large megachurches is we are far more up to date in our processes and our procedures in interviewing and examining volunteers than say your run of the mill tiny church that's just grateful they have somebody to work with kids. And that's not a shot against small churches, it's just large churches tend to operate better in these instances working with volunteers and working with people who work with kids, and so we have strict policies and procedures that weeds people out, and I think that's a good thing. We want people who love kids enough that are willing to go through the process in order to teach and protect our children, and that's just really important to us here. But oftentimes in small churches, in family run churches, you just see a lot of stuff that you just, you can't do here at Sandals. It just doesn't happen that way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I know, I I just say this because I think the megachurch gets attacked a lot. These are one of the areas where I think the megachurch is thriving and learning and growing is we're really, really diligent at protecting kids, and we go to a lot of lengths. And I can't speak for every large church, and that doesn't mean that abuse doesn't happen in large churches. I just think large churches have woken up and realized, okay, look, we have a duty to protect kids, and just because somebody says they're a Christian doesn't mean that Mhmm. They're a good person and that they're safe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I'll be praying for you, and I'm sorry that that happened. It breaks my heart when people come to church to be healed, and there are adults that hurt. And so that breaks my heart, and I believe it breaks God's heart. And God will deal with those people. So any other thoughts?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. I think that's
Justin Knowles:that's great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright. John from Riverside. Thank you, John. How do we as Christians provide the youth and young adults in our church with a positive male and female example? This is a great question, John.
Justin Knowles:This is a great softball question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm throw it
Justin Knowles:up. You better hit it out of the park. Serve. Yes. If you want the greatest impact, is literally serve alongside them and with them.
Justin Knowles:That's that's the best thing that you could do. Like we talked about, kinda mentioned before, you don't have to know everything. Yeah. You have to be cool. We want grandmas, we want grandpas, we want college kids, we want adults.
Justin Knowles:If you love Jesus and you like students or kids Yeah. One of the best things that you could do is to serve alongside them. They say Fuller has like a study that came out. It says students who have five adults speaking into them like in a regular basis
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:Who love Jesus, those students stay in church longer Yeah. Post graduation. And so I'm like, okay, if we have if they have parents, that's two. You have the leader, maybe a coach, maybe there's a teacher. Like, if you think about the like, you could be one of the five that's being a positive person who's having conversations about Jesus Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:Being real with them appropriately with like, hey, I struggle with this too. Like, that's how you invest in the next generation. I think the most and if you want like a tangible way to see that God could use you in the lives of young people, that's that's it. Yeah. The other ones that we've been like talking about, we talked about donate, like, you don't wanna do it, but you wanna help other people do it, donate to summer camp and send kids to camp so they could experience that, or you could pray.
Justin Knowles:Like, we need all the prayer that we could get. If you hear the stories that we have on Wednesday night sometimes, you're like, I will pray for you, and you need it. Yeah. Amen. And so those would be those would be my three.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would just say, John, I mean, part of the giving, like, you're like, where does all my money go when I put it in the offering? Well, one of the things it does is it hires 13 youth pastors. It hires a youth staff to be able to produce youth camp, to produce training, to lead volunteers and train volunteers. I mean, we're spending money to help kids in order to, you know, change their life and make it better, and that's just something that we work really, really hard at at Sandals Church. And so I would just say volunteer, continue to give, continue to serve.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of times I think people think, oh, it's a big church, they got plenty of money, they got plenty of volunteers. We don't have either. So we're constantly scrambling every year to make budget. God's always gracious and comes through, and we're always scrambling to get volunteers. And so think about how hard it is to get people to attend church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now get them to serve at church. And so it's even harder. And so part of what makes, you know, that hard is a lot of our listeners watch online and that's great, but you still need to serve the local church.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Can I tell us a quick story? Yeah. One of our staff members actually, Megan, you know, and and she last year kinda reluctantly volunteered to go to summer camp. Like she was like, I'm not you need our campus needs somebody, so I'm gonna go and jump in.
Justin Knowles:Lord's felt it on my heart to like do it. And then I remember like day two, she's bawling. You know, we I'm like, how are you doing? She just starts breaking down and crying. And she's like, these ladies just need a mom.
Justin Knowles:Like, they just need someone who cares for them and to listen to them. Yeah. You know? And that's like it's she didn't it's like, I didn't do anything. I just listened.
Justin Knowles:It was that person for them at camp and then she's now leaving a group now two years later Mhmm. With the same group of girls that she took up at camp and is killing it. Yeah. You know, like, and so that's that's where I go of like, we we we I think a lot of adults think that they there's like these barriers or excuses that they make Mhmm. Of why they can't or they shouldn't.
Justin Knowles:And I'm saying that if maybe you're listening to this and you're like, I feel out, I do wanna invest. Mhmm. Just jump just jump in like it's one of those cold plunge thing. You just gotta jump. You just gotta go.
Justin Knowles:And then allow God to work in you, and I think what for most people, what I've noticed is that they'll their heart starts to soften to this generate like this next generation, and they start to the starts to expand for them once they realize like, okay, I I could do this, and then, man, they they could use someone to pour into them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, that's a good word. Alright. Roxanne, this is a great question. I'm not gonna use her city name just to try to protect whoever this is that you're asking for. So I volunteer and work with teens who are abandoned.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you, Roxanne, for what you do. I work with teens who are abandoned, abused, and neglected. God, we need people like you, Roxanne. Thank you. I got asked a question by one girl that I didn't know how to answer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She said, I got sexually molested by my father and uncle. This is why I like girls. And why would God let that happen by people I trusted? Man, Roxanne, thank you so much for what you do. And so there's a couple things going on there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, oftentimes when we have forced sexual encounters with people of the same sex, it causes it's natural to cause us to question our sexuality. It's just a it's just a normal thing. God so so even when maybe it's unwanted sexual affection, God designed our genitals to feel good. And if somebody else is doing something to those genitals, it can cause you to say, well, wait a minute. I was stimulated in this, so maybe I am attracted to the same sex.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I've seen this over and over and over again. And so what I would just do is just say, look, You know, I'm sorry this happened. This shouldn't have happened. God gave you, your father, and your uncle to protect you, and they violated God's command. They have violated why God placed them on earth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the question of why did God allow it, God has allowed freedom of will and and, you know, power to parents. It's why parenting is so important. It's a real deal. And so what I would just say is, unfortunately, your father's brokenness and your uncle's brokenness, I'm guessing, you know, probably something happened there. And so that doesn't negate their responsibility to protect you, but they they didn't know how to be a dad.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They didn't know how to be an uncle. This is not what dads and uncles do. This is not the role of a father and uncle. And so what I would just say is God allowed it because we have freedom of will and freedom of choice, and what that means is when people choose to sin against us, they have freedom. Occasionally, God intervenes and does miracles.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But usually what God does is God allows things to take place. God doesn't stop all wars. God doesn't stop all death. Matter of fact, he doesn't stop most death, but he allows it to take place because it's what he warned us against. So here's what I would say is eventually God will right the wrongs, and your uncle and your father will be held accountable by God, and they will not get away with anything.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But what I would say is that God loves her, and just to say, I'm so sorry this happened to you, and God is sorry that this happened to you, but he loves you, and he has a he has a different plan for your life. And I think sex, whether with same sex or the opposite sex, is going to be a very difficult road and a healing path for you, and it's something that you're gonna have to work for. It's not your fault, but it is the path that you're gonna have to walk on. So I'm sorry that it happened, but you know, if you're going to be a Christian, God has given you a sexual ethic to live by, and just like your father and uncle violated the sexual ethic that God taught, you know, you're going to have a choice to violate that or not. And so hopefully you will walk in faith and in love, trusting what God has said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, sex is a powerful thing, and unfortunately, some people, when they choose to engage in sex, they act far more like an animal than they do an angel. And so we have a choice. Our sexuality can come from heaven or from earth, and when it comes from earth, it's really messy and really, really ugly. So that's a tough, tough question. And so I think what we all need to say is, I don't know why God allowed it, but I know this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:God is good, and he loves you, and God has placed me in your life to love you, to care for you, and to direct you, and to try to protect you and keep you from evil people like your dad and like your uncle who did this to you. So I don't know if you have any thoughts.
Justin Knowles:No. I think, I mean, I think you hit all the stuff if I was again, I was trying to think of, like, if I was sitting down across this across the table from that student, what would I say?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Empathy. Here's what like, people are messy and broken and all that stuff. I think the only thing that I would add on top of that, just to encourage, like if I was what was her name? Roxanne's the word. Roxanne.
Justin Knowles:So Roxanne, if you were like, if you were sitting with the girl that asked the question, is, you know, right now it's an open wound and as you pursue Jesus and your relationship with him, he is a healer. Yeah. And he heals those things and open wounds turn into scars. Scars never go away. Right.
Justin Knowles:Right? They're visible for everybody to see, but they don't hurt anymore. Yeah. You know? And so I think that that's what, as you pursue Jesus, that's what God continues to do.
Justin Knowles:Mhmm. And it might take a long time, it might take some processing and counseling, and people like Roxanne to help you walk through all those things, but sometimes your biggest pain in your life eventually, after healing and after walking through it, could be you could help others. Yeah. You know, God might take this really awful, nasty, disgusting, broken thing, and through his power and through his healing as you pursue him, that he could help use you to help others who have gone through that Right. In order to to walk through.
Justin Knowles:I know that's hard to say in the in the moment. Yeah. But like, to try to cast, like, as if I was Roxanne, I'd try to cast vision of what could be Yeah. And how what hope can come from it. Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Amen. And not just only stick in what's happening now and what's failing, but like, hey, if you do this and continue to do this Mhmm. You could experience these things also. Yeah. And doesn't mean that it goes away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:And it didn't happen, but it does mean that it may it may not hurt as much as it did right as it does right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I would just say, Roxanne, there are really two issues here. So one's the abuse, and that's a separate issue. And then one is what's my sexuality. Right? And so those are two real things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the abuse thing, I think, is clear cut, dry. Look, that shouldn't have happened. This isn't about God's character, it's about your dad and your uncle's character. And so I would just really encourage that and that we can trust God. But with the sexuality piece, and I think this is so important with so many teenagers exploring, you know, life is so much more free now today than when I was when I was a kid.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, when I graduated from high school so I went to high school with 4,000 students. I did not know a gay student. Now I'm sure we I'm sure there were gay students, but in the eighties, you know, it was not was not cool to be open, at least where I went to high school. It's very different now. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Where being LGBTQ is celebrated. You know? Where when I was in high school, you know, you would have been humiliated. Right? And so I'm not I'm not praising how I grew up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's terrible to make fun of and put down some kid that's struggling with their sexuality. But now we've gone the opposite. So here's what I would say is to any teenager that's struggling with sexuality, instead of jumping into this is wrong, and here's how God's lived you to be right, what I would really encourage teenagers is to date Jesus. So I started dating my wife. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm getting to know her. I'm falling more in love with her, and then ultimately, I get to the point where I say, I don't wanna be with anyone else but you. Now in Christianity, that's called a Christian, But what we kinda do is we kinda we kinda like, you know, shotgun wedding, boom, get saved, boom. And what we don't give people is the amount of time to really press in and say, okay, I love Jesus so much. I'm ready to live in this exclusive relationship with him, and what that means is I'm not going to act on my sexuality right now as I as I understand it, because what's most important to me is this relationship with Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But you can't just tell that to somebody that doesn't have a relationship with Jesus, that hasn't experienced the goodness of God and doesn't know these things. And so sometimes we come down with a hammer, well, it's black and white, it's right and wrong. Okay. Yeah. And just remember, every single letter, you know, in the Bible is written to Christians.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? These aren't the the Lord didn't post Romans on a Roman colonnade, you know, for for your for your passerby, you know, walking on his way to the brothel or the Colosseum. You know? This Mhmm. That's it was to a church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was, hey. You guys are trying to follow God. Here's the ways that you follow God. And so it's why I don't like those people on the street corners with their signs. You know, they're quoting scripture to random people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:These are personal letters written to Christians. And so it's supposed to impact us, and then our life is what's compelling to these people. Not, hey, you know, repent or go to hell. Like, it's like, wait a minute. You know, you need to know Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the apostle Paul says, we are God's letter. We are. And so encourage this girl, as God's letter, Roxanne, just keep saying, God is good and he loves you, and I'm praying for you. And and, you know, don't bait and switch eventually, you know, and this is what's so important to me for all of the gay community that comes to sandals. I don't wanna bait and switch.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't want them to feel like we're open and affirming, and then one day we're like, no. Because that's that's not right either. And if you're heterosexual, just want you to imagine that if God said you couldn't explore your heterosexuality, that that would be a real I think we'd lose some members.
Justin Knowles:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So just saying, look, we've gotta be patient with these people that are are questioning this, particularly in this girl's stage. Like, sexuality was forced upon her, and this wasn't her choice, and it was very painful, and I can't imagine what that was like. And so, you know, men like that are scary, and that's evil, and probably, I'm guessing, painful. And so I can imagine why you would say, okay, I don't wanna have sex with a man, I wanna have sex with a woman, because that's safer. That makes sense to me in my mind.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we need to have compassion with that. That's not what God's word says, but we have to let them fall in love with Jesus. So there are two invitations of Jesus, and every Christian forgets this. There's come and see, and there's come and die. And so we think we think we're preaching the gospel when we preach come and die, but that message is to those who are called to come and see.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And we forget that. We have to come and see first. Oh, I do believe in him. This Jesus is worth following.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, Mary Magdalene's not at the tomb because she heard a sermon. She's at the tomb because she walked with Jesus for three years, and she doesn't care about her life. She doesn't care if she's murdered because she wants to make sure her Lord is buried properly. She's there because she knew him and she loved him, and she's willing to risk everything for him. We need to give people an opportunity to meet Jesus in that way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't know if you guys were in the sermon today. I talked about the love of God, the agape love of God, and I said some of us have experienced this. Some of us have not. Some of us are hoping and learning about this. Like, we're all on different paths.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so culturally, America was anti gay for, I don't know, most of time until maybe the mid-1990s. Now culture has shifted. It's very, very pro gay. It's celebrated. It has its own month.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In every store we go to, right, it's worshiped. Being gay is worshiped now. So the culture has shifted. So we have to change the way that we preach because the gospel hasn't changed, but people have, and we have to contextualize and preach it to the gospel. And so, you know, one gospel is, you know, we we had David Platt, whom I love and respect, preach on a Wednesday night.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was gonna have him preach on Sunday morning. And I changed my mind, not because I don't like David, but because his message is repent or else you'll burn in hell. I don't think that's a compelling message in California. I think it works in the South. I think it reaches people in the South who know better and are living their own way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When he was preaching, I watched teenagers on a Wednesday night get up rows of them and walk out. And I think that there's a part of Christianity that would say, Amen, he's preaching the truth. I didn't believe that. I was like, This is not what my church needs to hear. Now is what he's saying true?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. But the Bible doesn't say speak truth. Ephesians four says speak truth in love. Mhmm. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so it's different. So we need to learn to speak truth in love. And if you're like, amen, Pastor Matt, you need to hear me, I had to unlearn everything I heard in the church, because I grew up in the church, hellfire, brimstone, and if you ain't angry, you ain't preaching, right? Like if I don't feel insulted, it wasn't a good message. Those days are over.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it still works in the South, it still works in some categories, but and again, I'm defending myself a little bit. But when you look at the characteristics and qualities of an elder, we talk a lot about is it male or female. We don't talk about the qualities. And one of the qualities, if you look at, it's the personality of the elder, and why in Timothy and Titus is Peter, or excuse me, Paul concerned? So that perhaps he will save some of those who disagree with him and lead them to repentance.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So how we say it is as important as what we say, and a lot of Christians have forgotten that. So hear me correctly, I believe the Bible calls Christians to live, if they're going to choose to be sexual, in a heterosexual, lifelong, committed, monogamous relationship. A lot of our married people don't do that. So we need to have a lot of grace when we're talking to our gay community. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So anyways, that was a long winded answer. It's something I'm really passionate about. And again, I didn't mean that at all to pick on David Platt. I think he's fantastic. I think, you know, he he he, you know, really, really inspired thousands to serve in missions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I appreciate him, love him. But in California, I don't think his message was compelling, and I I saw it in real time. I watched rows, because it was on a Wednesday night, rows of teenagers get up and walk
Justin Knowles:out. Mhmm. Yeah. That's like something when when when we because we try to do outreach, and I think there's a balance, especially like our youth ministry. Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:There's a balance between we wanna be engaging to a non believer Yeah. Challenging to a believer. Like, that's the tension that we have to manage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Welcome to my life.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. And and walk through that. And one of the things in in trainings that we do with our volunteers is we can't be mad when non church people don't know how to church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Justin Knowles:Like, can't be mad that there's a fight. Mhmm. Because, well, we had all these kids come who've never stepped foot in church, and they got into it and then something happened, and then we're like mad about them coming here to be a part. Like, to me, it just doesn't make sense. Like, if we're inviting and come and see Yeah.
Justin Knowles:And we're preaching, then eventually, we have to give them time Yeah. To respond, to hear, to think that we're not phony or real or like whatever it is. And so, like, when I have adults or leaders sometimes, they're like, oh, there's all these kids, they don't know how, like, they're talking the whole time. I was like They don't know how to church. I love it.
Justin Knowles:They don't know how to church. It's my favorite thing. Yeah. You know, is is that kid in the back row.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, that was me, dude.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Well, me too. That and that's why I was like, yes. Them. That's me.
Justin Knowles:Sorry. This next
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:one's a tough one. It's from Alan. I'm not gonna say your city, Alan. Thank you for your question. Recently, I took my three year old son to the men's bathroom, and a group of teenage boys and girls, some were transgender, walked into the restroom to utilize it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Transparently, it startled me and made me upset and uncomfortable. How can I explain what is happening in society to my son, and how can I avoid the temptation to get angry at people who clearly have different values than I do? Man, Alan, this is a great, great question. I know it's something that we struggle with in our youth groups because we have transgender youth attending on Wednesday nights, they don't know how to church. They don't know Jesus yet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I want every parent to hear me. All of your kids' friends are welcome at our church. They're gay friends. They're transgender friends. We're not compromising anything.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But right, come and see, and come and die, and those are two different things. And I just don't I don't think we would have any teenagers dying. I think we want them to come and see, and see that Jesus is good, and make a decision that, you know, that they're loved. And the way that the gay community has just so out advanced us is they've been so much better at welcoming people. And regardless of your race, your religion, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, hey, come on in, man. Mean, you're under the rainbow, and right? The rainbow should have been God's, not theirs. And so we gotta let people come in. What I would say to this is, Alan, is the world is changing and California is changing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I do think there's gonna be some pushback. I think normal, everyday people are not radicalized. They know boys are boys and girls are girls, and they don't want boys in the girls' room, they don't want girls in the men's room. But what I would say as Christians is that's something political that needs to be fought. And so here's where we lose as a church, is when we take the political flag, and we start marching, and we think the way to change America is through voting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The church, like, here's what you gotta know, Alan, I can't imagine what Christian parents, what their kids saw in Rome. I can't imagine what they saw in Corinth. We know there was transgender in Corinth, because that's what the whole long hair thing a woman covering her head while she prays probably has to
Justin Knowles:do
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:with. Transgenderism has been with us for a long time. Now, they couldn't do the surgeries that we can do nowadays, but men have been chopping off their penises and testicles for religious reasons and sexual reasons for as far back as we know. This is not a new thing. What is new is girls turning into boys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's very, very new. A great book by Abigail Schrier, Irreversible Damage. Great book by a Jewish woman about this whole transgender thing with women is different. You know, because we have to remember, we're all girls at first. Did you guys know that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when we're in utero, everyone's a girl, and then you either get a testosterone bath or you don't. And if you get a testosterone bath, right, you become a boy, which makes sense why men might struggle, hey, but if you're a girl, you never got that testosterone bath. And so it's just scientifically very, very odd. And until 2010, it was almost always men who struggled, but it was still less than one percent. And what we're seeing now, right, twenty, thirty percent of teens are questioning their gender.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's cultural pressure, and social pressure is a real thing. And anybody that doesn't believe that has never served a youth ministry. And that's the argument Abigail Schrers makes, is that why are girls, why is girls' transgenderism spiking two, three, 5000% in a couple years? And it's social media, and oh my gosh, you know, again, teenagers don't know who they are. Being a teenager is struggling with your identity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That is what it means to be a teenager. I don't know who I am, and what we have to do as a church is lovingly help them find that. Because what we believe is your identity is found in Christ. So here's what I would say as a dad is the world is changing. If you ever feel unsafe, your job as a parent is to remove your kid.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not your job to get angry, to be abusive, to belittle, to attack or make those teenagers feel terrible in any way, shape, or form. They already feel terrible. So just know that. They already feel terrible. Now, if it's a grown man with his genitalia out, then and look, as progressive as Disneyland has happened, when this happens at Disneyland, that in guy a police car.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You are not allowed to expose yourself to children. So there still are laws and regulations, and, you know, companies that allow this, like Planet it's not Planet Hollywood. What's the purple gem?
Justin Knowles:Planet Fitness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Planet Fitness. Mean, they're losing thousands upon thousands of members because you know what women don't want to see in the gym? A penis. Okay? That's not why they're there to work out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So they're gonna and let let it figure it out because guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna they're gonna go to a gym like Orange or something like that where it's females only, and guess what? Planet Fitness can go under. Be an idiot. That's that's that's if that's what you wanna do, that's what you wanna do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What we need to do is we need to talk to our kids about what gender is from an early age. You're a boy, here's why that matters. You're a girl, here's what that matters. And the rare, rare, rare exception that there's a question of that at birth, we need to be open and careful in that, because there are extraordinarily rare situations where gender is in question, and we we have to love that child and nurture them and know that they're loved by God and know that life is hard, and this has made it even more confusing. But boys are boys, girls are girls, that's science.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Most of transgenderism is just another religion. That's what it is. It's another religion that's currently winning in media, in our academia, in medicine, unfortunately. And so as a church, we just have to prepare our kids for that, and that's why I think it's so important that your kids encounter homosexuality and transgenderism at church, because what's gonna happen at church? They're gonna hear a different side.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:At school, they're gonna hear one side. At church, they're gonna hear two sides. But the transgender kid I had two friends, I don't know, Madison, you remember this, my friends Ed and Tom, the two gay guys. I told them, I asked my two friends, I'm like, would you please go out to lunch with my kids? And they were like, why?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was like, because my kids are never going to meet two gay dudes who are married. And I want them to have an interaction. And they were like, What? They're like, What, are we a lab experiment? I was like, Well, kind of.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, and they were Christians, and they were trying to figure it out. And so we went out to lunch, and we had a great time, and I wanted my kids to be able to ask questions. And Ed and Tom were probably my age now. At that time, I thought they were really old, but they're probably my age. And I just, you know, they loved Sandals Church, they were committed to Christ, they were married but celibate.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was bizarre. They were Republicans. It was the weirdest lunch I've ever had in my life. But I love those two guys, and they still send me cards. Hey, we love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They've moved on to Phoenix. But they became born again after they were together. And they're like, how do we do this? And we figured this out as a church. How do we help them, you know, walk in this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we've had this with some other couples in our church that were women, that were married, and what does this look like? And so it's just so important that we do this delicately and carefully, because what here's what sin loves. Sin loves darkness. And when we shove it into the dark, it only gets worse. What we need to do is expose it into the light, and, you know, we have staff that are gay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love them. They're called, just like our single staff are called, they're called to a sexual commitment. I have a sexual commitment. My commitment to this church, to God and my wife, is I will have sex with only her. That's my commitment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it doesn't matter what my desires are and what my opportunities are, that's my commitment. And if I violate that, then I resign, or the board can actually fire me. It's an actual contract. And that's really, really important. So what I would just say is take this as a learning opportunity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't get mad. Be grateful, and just know your kids, whether they go to church or not, even at private school, they're going to have gay friends, they're going to have transgender friends, and they're going to encounter this. I would much rather them encounter this under your care than at a university where they're like, oh my gosh, Christians are hateful and bigoted and terrible, and they hear the gospel of hate message by the LGBTQ. Look, I don't hate anybody. I'm not mad at anybody.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have a set of a belief. LGBTQ has a set of beliefs. We disagree, okay? I'm called to my life, they're called to their life, and we have to help our kids understand this is our calling, this is who we are, but be loving and disagree. And in our society, we've forgotten how to disagree and be loving.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let's do that in the church. And, you know, when somebody comes at me, and I wish it didn't happen, but I get accosted at the grocery store, I get accosted at the mall, I mean, you know, people get aggressive with me, and what I say is, I don't go, the Bible says, and you're going to hell. I just say this, I humbly disagree. I humbly disagree. I wish you well.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now can I go? Right? Because I'm trying to buy tomatoes. So, you know, and this is our world, but people don't know how they don't know how to respond. And and did you hear the sermon?
Justin Knowles:I cut that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:With the angry woman in Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was with 10 people from sandals, and this this woman was pretty upset.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And to be fair, we had like, we cut. And so if you didn't listen to the sermon, listen to the sermon on love. Love isn't is is the message. This is part two in our Love Is series. But she was very angry, and rightfully so.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:10 people just cut in front of her. Like, I would have been mad. And when I said, I love you, which I don't recommend saying to a woman, I didn't plan it, it just came out, I said, I love you. You can cut you you can take your spot in front of us. She completely changed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So how we say something and what we're saying can change people's perspective. And so say this to your gay friends, your LGBT, hey, I love you. I humbly disagree. You know, well, there's this, you know, person went, dude, I've received threatening letters from gay people. I I have been threatened on TikTok and Instagram because of my stances.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm gonna come to your church. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. Now is that all gay people? No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just a gay person that's a jerk. That's all it is. And I don't know if you know this, but every category has their winners. You know what I'm saying? And so don't judge, you know, everyone because you had this one specific encounter.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I know I'm talking forever. So Alan, to California. Yeah. And you live in California, this is not changing. We need to learn to love our neighbors, and to understand that the gospel has some specific challenges for the LGBTQ community that we need to humbly understand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That, you know, according to the Bible, I get to be married, and I get to have sex with my wife. Those are privileges that the Bible does not afford to the gay community, and it feels extremely unfair to them. And we we just need to be open to that. Okay. I get that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There are things that feel unfair to me, but God's called me. You know? I don't get to tell people what I think all the time as a pastor. You know? My wife and I literally had this discussion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She said why she said it doesn't feel fair. I said it's not fair, but we're called to a different calling.
Justin Knowles:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Very, very tough. Alright. I talk too much.
Justin Knowles:No. Alan. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Knowles:I I mean, love all that. I think the couple things that come to my mind when I hear that question, you know, three year old, right, in the bathroom, you know, because I don't think about my four year old, and I'm like, he had no idea. He wouldn't even like notice twice.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. He might not know if an elephant was in bathroom.
Justin Knowles:Yeah. Know, and so, you know, but it does get you thinking. And so for Alan, I would say my first question is, you know, it's really hard it's really hard to be angry at somebody that you're intentionally praying for. Yeah. And so I think like if that makes you angry, like, are you like, challenge yourself, like, maybe I should be praying for teenagers or that community or like, whatever it is.
Justin Knowles:Like, I think that's that's step one. Two is what I've noticed, and just youth ministry wise, a lot of parents don't realize or process until the question's actually asked. And so, you know, even a three, whether he asked you a question, because I can see my older one going like, hey, dad, why was you know, asked the question. But if that's the first time that I've thought through it about like what I believe and how I would explain that, like, look around. Look at culture.
Justin Knowles:Look at what's happening, especially if you know that question. So why? How come? Why does that happen?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Justin Knowles:Like, all that's coming as a kid grows up. Yeah. And so I would say that you could be proactive. You know, maybe that's a a situation where you were reactive. Right.
Justin Knowles:And it didn't say like he asked a question there, he just maybe got him thinking. But I would say a lot of parents are reactive in how they answer, and sometimes they don't answer in the best ways Right. Because they haven't themselves processed it. Mhmm. And I think as parents, what we could do is we could kinda look around and say, okay, I think this might be coming.
Justin Knowles:And we could process it first, and so that way when we do have a question and answer our kids is that we it's not processing in real time. Right? You know, and we could kinda be a little bit more like, oh, I'm kind of prepared for this. I actually believe this. And so now I know how to articulate it myself That's in great.
Justin Knowles:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you so much, Alan. I'll be praying for you and praying for all of our parents. Please pray for our kids ministry, our youth ministry at Sandals Church. And if you're listening from another state, pray for us in California. Know, we're losing so many good people who are moving out of the state, and so I feel like I'm fighting a bigger battle with a smaller army.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If That's you wanna know what my prayer to God is, that's what I I feel like Gideon. And if you don't know Gideon, read that story. It's in the book of Judges. And I feel like every time I dip down for water, my army shrinks, but the war is biggest in California. And so, man, if if you're from Texas, Tennessee, whatever, maybe God would have you move to California.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Maybe your best yes would be to move to California and make a difference here, because California is a mission field. It is. And, you know, there's enough great churches in Texas, Tennessee, Florida, Georgia, you name it. Churches in California need your help. Support us financially, support us with prayer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some of you, God, may be calling you to be a missionary. Like I I feel like my best yes for my life has been in California, and I believe that California will influence and change the world, and so I'm trying. And I was discipling and spending time with a pastor this week, and he is an executive at Disney. And he's pastoring a church in Burbank. And I'm like, yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Yes. Yes, Lord. Yes. Whatever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I told him, his name was Matt, which is just great. I was like, whatever I can do, Matt, to help you, and I wanna make I wanna I want to make the biggest impact I can. I wanna make myself available for you. So people wanna protest Disney. What if we helped shape Disney from the inside?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's what this guy's doing. And it's just so, so great what he's doing, and I just was super pumped to meet him. But, you know, I get to rub elbows with movie directors and actors, and and that's the unique that's the uniqueness of California. It's challenging Mhmm. But it's unique.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, we what do they always call us? The land of the fruits and the nuts? That's that's where I wanna live. You know? I wanna live, you know, in the place that needs God the most.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I want to give God my best yes. And so pray for us, pray for our kids. It's it's tough. It's tough in California, but not as tough as Jesus. He's tougher, and and we can do this with him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So thank you again for watching. You can submit your own questions to the podcast anytime. Go to move.sc/ask or you can go to the Sandals Church app, and I will see you guys next time. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My book Everyday A Miracle comes out March 5. Please preorder today. It is a book about a journey towards trusting God who heals inside and out. Thanks for watching the episode.