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The practice of gratitude can change your life (and your leadership) if you commit to it. In this episode, Alex and Ben explain why gratitude is so important, and how it can ripple out from one area of your life to make a larger impact on the world around you. They unpack 4 passages from Scripture and reflect on the lessons they can teach us about gratitude. Whether you need some help getting in the Thanksgiving spirit this week, or you want to extend the gratitude mindset outside of the holiday season, this episode has something for you!
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Episode Recap:
- Gratitude is the antidote to anxiety and an exercise in leadership
- When you learn to see God in everything, you can’t help but feel grateful
- 1 Samuel 2 — Personal gratitude can impact an entire nation
- Philippians 4:4-9 — Prayer, supplication, and thanksgiving will lead to peace
- John 6:4-13 — When pursuing more, start with giving thanks for what you already have
- How do we balance gratitude with vision?
- Psalm 136 — Gratitude is a practice that will lead to change
- What would it look like for you to implement gratitude as a daily practice?
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So in November we always like to dwell on and focus on these three points. Number one is gratitude is an antidote to anxiety and over the past handful of years this has actually become popularized, which is really cool. The idea that gratitude and anxiety cannot exist in the brain at the same time. That truly if, the neuroscience shows that if your brain is being gripped by paranoid fear and anxiety, but then you choose to focus on what you are grateful for and not just focus on it, but actually experience gratitude in that in that moment, the negative emotion and by extension your cortisol levels, which is a stress hormone decrease in your body. And so it's not exaggerating to say what we're talking about today is an antidote to anxiety, and and some people would say we live in the age of anxiety, so that's really important.
Alex Judd:Number two, it's an expression of humility. I have never heard, and I hope you haven't either, someone saying, man, this year, I am just so grateful for me. I'm I'm just so grateful for everything I did this year. Right? Like, that just is literally almost an oxymoron on its face because gratitude is this thing, that forces us and causes us just by nature to look outside of ourselves for the things that we don't deserve but do get to experience.
Alex Judd:And and that's gonna be woven into this episode a lot. And then finally, it's an exercise in leadership. The principle here is that you don't attract what you want, you attract what you are. Mhmm. And so if you want to work with grateful, vibrant, abundance minded, overflowing, positive, generous, excited, passionate individuals, maybe be that type of person.
Alex Judd:And it's crazy. If you start to be that type of person, those people will start to show up in your life. And so in that way, it's an exercise in leadership. And many times, we have to be willing to go first.
Ben Loy:I've shared this with you before, but this is to your first point, the idea of anxiety and gratefulness or gratitude not being able to exist just neurologically at the same time. Yeah. I mean, one of the most profound things for me was, when I was seeing a therapist during just a difficult season of life and just wanted a sounding board to process through some things. And she had me just keep a a gratitude journal, and it was just list five things every day that you're grateful for. And, I mean, it was definitely one of the most profound things I've done in in, like, that space and in the mental health space.
Ben Loy:And, it was just amazing how simple it was and at the same time how how effective. Yeah.
Alex Judd:Which is crazy because, you know, I mean, people pay therapists a lot of money. And it's like, all she had to do is say, you just get a notebook and and write down five things you're grateful for. And you're just like, that's the most which you're, in some ways, insulting all the other things she did for you. Yeah. I mean, I heard a quote once, and I don't know, it was a philosopher that first said this.
Alex Judd:He said, most people don't experience God because they're not willing to look low enough. And that, I mean, that feels, like, heretical on its face. Right? But what he's saying is, like, God is in the mundane. God is in the everyday.
Alex Judd:God is in the simple. And you don't you can stand on top of a mountain in the middle of Glacier Mountain National Park and see all of God's majestic creation and experience gratitude. I've done it before. Right? But you can also sit in bed at at the end of the day and write, dadgummit, that was some of the best Mexican food I've ever had tonight, and be grateful for that too.
Alex Judd:It's like, in some ways, I think it and this can be in a lot of what we talk about today it's seeing God not just in the big things, but seeing God in everything.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And that just recontextualizes the way you perceive and experience life.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. And I think being being able to acknowledge the little things as much as the big things is what creates resilience in a lot of ways when when life doesn't give you the big things to be grateful for sometimes, you know?
Alex Judd:That's so true. Yeah. And and I for me, at least, this is gonna be in the scriptures that I I pulled to today, particularly in two of them. But that's how we kinda said we wanted to organize this today. So we said, man, it would be be really, I think, fascinating for both of us individually, but we really felt good for our leadership community collectively to say, you know, this is a time that is, gratitude, praise god, is woven into our culture for this season, which is really, really cool.
Alex Judd:It's also really, really odd and twisted that at the simultaneous exact same time that gratitude has woven its way into our culture, consumerism, like, rears its ugly head and, like, has its finest hour at the same time. Right? Which we probably won't get too much into that today. But but we kinda felt like it would be really cool to say, man, let's pull a a few passages of scripture. I think you pulled a few and I pulled a few.
Alex Judd:And and really just say, man, what what does this teach us about gratitude? What does this show us about gratitude? And how do we respond in light of what the word of God, what truth tells us about gratitude or in some ways doesn't even tell us. In some of these passages, at least in particular for one of mine, the word gratitude or thankfulness isn't in the passage, but it's all over the passage. Right?
Alex Judd:It's embedded into the narrative of what we're reading. And so, before we jump in, to those scriptures, is there anything else you would add?
Ben Loy:No. I'm excited to to get into these.
Alex Judd:Yeah. Well, why don't you start? What what what's one that you came up with?
Ben Loy:One of the first things that came to mind was Hannah's prayer in first Samuel, actually.
Alex Judd:Deep cuts is what we're Yeah. Doing
Ben Loy:Yeah. So this is this is not just like a single verse. I mean, this is the entire chapter, but it's a prayer mean, it's a prayer of thankfulness and rejoicing, after in chapter two, after she finds out that she's expecting a child and after being barren for years and and in many ways being being devalued and oppressed because of that. And so I'll read this first and then go a little bit more into it. So hold on because this is more than just a single verse.
Alex Judd:Yeah. That's right.
Ben Loy:But, yeah. Hannah prayed, my heart rejoices in the Lord. My horn is lifted up by the Lord. My mouth boasts over my enemies because I rejoice in your salvation. There is no one holy like the Lord.
Ben Loy:There is no one besides you, and there is no rock like our God. Do not boast so proudly or let arrogant words come out of your mouth for the Lord God Lord is a God of knowledge, and actions are weighed by him. The bows of the warriors are broken, but the feeble are clothed with strength. Those who are full hire themselves out for food, and those who are starving hunger no more. The woman who is childless gives birth to seven, but the woman with many sons pines away.
Ben Loy:The Lord brings death and gives life. He sends some down to Sheol, and he raises others up. The Lord brings poverty and gives wealth. He humbles, and he exalts. He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the trash heap.
Ben Loy:He seats them with noblemen and gives them a throne of honor. For the foundations of the earth are the Lord's. He has set the world on them. He guards the steps of his faithful ones, but the wicked perish in darkness. For a person does not prevail by his own strength.
Ben Loy:Those who oppose the Lord will be shattered. He will thunder in the heavens against them. The Lord will judge the ends of the earth. He will give power to his king. He will lift up the horn of his anointed.
Ben Loy:I think one of the things that and this is what I've written alongside this entire chapter that stuck out to me is her personal deliverance as she continues to pray leads into language of, like, national redemption for Israel. And, this is at a time when, like, it's interesting because Israel doesn't even have a king. And at the very end of her prayer, she says, the Lord will judge the ends of the earth and he will give power to his king. And it becomes almost prophetic in many ways, but it starts with this personal deliverance and this, this, this ability for her to pivot into a position of thankfulness and rejoicing. And from there, it's just like this, this overflow, like it starts with her and then it just builds and compounds, like, from her to the the society around her.
Ben Loy:She starts say saying truths about who God is and who who he is in the in the through the lens of their culture. And then from there, it honestly turns into, like, almost a warrior and, like, a military proclamation Mhmm. Which is just so interesting that it's all starts with personal deliverance and and that personal gratitude for, like, who the Lord is.
Alex Judd:What is a there's it's probably not a v, but what is a, like, leader's takeaway from that prayer? Or what's the takeaway that you have?
Ben Loy:That's a good question. I mean, I think kind of to your your third point that you stated at the beginning of the episode was gratitude, practicing gratitude is is a practice in leadership. And her gratitude in this moment for her personal deliverance through the lens of her story expands beyond her because she goes on to I mean, and even before this, like, she vows to dedicate this child to the Lord and that that child becomes Samuel who is a a judge of Israel in a time when the word of the Lord wasn't heard. And, and he goes on to, you know, appoint Saul as king and bring a king to Israel and then and then anoint David as well. And it's just so interesting.
Ben Loy:Yeah. That, like, from a leadership perspective, her personal gratitude and her dependence and expression of dependence on the Lord, I mean, changed a nation.
Alex Judd:Yeah. It's interesting to think about, like, in some ways, this is the Samuel origin story. Like, Hannah can't have a child, and it's out of that place that God gives her a child, and then Samuel is raised up as one of the most influential prophets in history, right, is what we would say. Like, what is I don't know. Is there something in that that it's like, this is where that prophet came from from your perspective?
Alex Judd:Like, is there something we should be taking away from the fact that one of the most influential prophets in human history came from this place?
Ben Loy:In many ways, came directly, like, directly from the just the Lord's grace and provision for Hannah. Yeah. I guess I'm not sure beyond that what you're alluding to.
Alex Judd:Well, I I don't know that I'm alluding to anything. I was genuinely asking. Yeah. But, I mean, there is something I it seems like like Samuel stands out as being deeply surrendered to God in a culture that was not that way, and particularly standing, directly across from and later opposed to Saul, who was incredibly intimidating and influential figure Mhmm. Who was not fully surrendered to God.
Alex Judd:And, you know, I'm kind of inspired as a parent of seeing, like, well, why was Samuel so surrendered? And, well, probably his mom had something to do with it in some way. She she basically got to the point where she had thrown her hands up and said, I I'm barren. I can't make this happen. And and mourning, and out of that, God gives her a child.
Alex Judd:And now yeah. It's almost weird because I don't I often don't pray the way we read in here. I I prayer for me is I I mentally distinguish prayer from worship, and I think what we see here is, like, this is, like, worship for her. Mhmm. And and it's it's certainly not just requests, but she is just line after line after line saying what God is capable of, what God has done, and what God can do.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. And what's even more interesting in that is in chapter one, when she prays to God for a child, she calls on the God of armies, which, again, like, speaks to where Israel was as a nation at the time. And, like, she's not only acknowledging her desires and need for deliverance, but she's also at the same time in, like, the same breath acknowledging the the culture around her's need for for the Lord.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. I I read this prayer, and I I think of our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Like, the this is almost the preamble to the Lord's prayer and that the whole thing is adoration. And sometimes if I'm not careful, my adoration at the front end of my prayer can be one sentence, God, you are good. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Right? And I think it it's actually it's a really good example here, the language and the imagery that she holds in her head about just how big and great and grand god is and everything that he's done and everything that he's capable of. And in some ways, like, you can tell, like, he's worked on her heart to be so soft to then just move forward in his power and not in her own power. And for me, I guess and then I'd love to know, you know, do you have a practical takeaway from this scripture? But mine is, man, adoration, like, is not just a check the box thing
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:To get to your prayers that are actually, like, requests. Or even to say because I think in some ways, gratitude and adoration are different things. Gratitude is thanks for what you did. Adoration in some way, she's just like bowing down before who he is. And to carve out time for genuine adoration that breathes life into the gratitude that we're about to express.
Ben Loy:Mhmm. What just came to mind was, like, blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Right? This speaks to that in a in a powerful way. And and I guess the practical application of that is it isn't, oh, like, woe is me, woe is me, like, coming to the Lord with this, I think, what can sometimes be wrapped up as, like, this overwhelmingly negative view of yourself.
Ben Loy:Right? But it's it's coming to him with an acknowledgment of your need for him and of the world's need for him. And going beyond just like, oh, God, you are good. Like, thank you. And really just sitting in that, like, no, God, we need you.
Ben Loy:Like, you are good. And I think take yeah. Like you said, like, taking the extra time to sit in that.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And total trust and belief and confidence in his all sufficiency.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:I mean, you know, there are sometimes where you read things in the Old Testament and you're like, man, I don't operate with that same level of boldness. Right? The and I I hadn't really read it the way you kinda got into it at the beginning of our discussion where it's like, her respect, confidence, belief, faith in God started with her of, like, you I was barren, and you gave me a child. And then it, like, almost couldn't help but overflowing into, like, those areas that she influences the nation that she's a part of and and the world and the human race that that nation is nested in. Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And for reasons that I'm not yet ready to share, I'm very passionate about the word overflows right now. But but this is an example of that. Right? Like, it's like, you can't help but see as it progressed through what is really, you know, maybe 15 sentences, the span of influence and belief and power in God gets wider and wider and wider. And maybe a principle from that is that gratitude does beget gratitude.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Like, the minute you start to the minute you ask the question, what is good, right, beautiful, and true, and you start to get answers, which is pretty cool. Mhmm. And then the more you get answers, the easier it is to get additional answers
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Which is just crazy that life works that way. Yep. Philippians four four through nine. We actually just went through this at our experience. I kinda wanna give the whole thing, and then we'll zoom in on the gratitude piece in particular.
Alex Judd:But it's, so this has been my my cold plunge memory verse lately. If I Nice. If I start shivering while I'm saying this, it's force of habit.
Ben Loy:There you go.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I swear sometimes I'm like, my neighbors probably think I'm a crazy person because I, you know, get into my skivvies and then jump in cold water and I'm like screaming these verses. Maybe not screaming them all the time. Yeah. So it says, rejoice in the Lord always.
Alex Judd:Again, I say rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known by everyone. The Lord is at hand. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God. And the God of peace, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
Alex Judd:Finally, brothers, whatever is right, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there's anything worthy of praise, think about such things. What you have received, what you have heard, what you have learned, what you have seen in me, practice these things, and the god of peace will be with you. Oh, I I love it so much. It's so, so, so powerful. So, I mean, I actually think there's elements of all three of our beginning principles, you know, on anxiety, humility, and leadership embedded in this scripture in Philippians.
Alex Judd:But but the obvious one is, like, man, Paul Paul knew the neuroscience way before the neuroscience but way before neuroscience was even a word. Right? Paul knew the neuroscience. The fact that he literally says, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God, is so cool. He he's he's not just telling us do not be anxious, he's giving us a practical tool and part of that practical tool is thanksgiving, which is so so so cool.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I think Matt Chandler says a lot in his sermons, like, he loves when science catches up to God. Yeah. It's like a study comes out that it's like, turns out it's like beneficial for your mental health to take one day off, completely unplugged a week. It's like, well, yeah, someone's been doing that for thousands of years, but we don't wanna talk about that.
Alex Judd:That's exactly right. Yeah. And I mean, in some ways that not in some ways. That is what it seems like what's going on here. But so if we zoom in on that that verse, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, which, man, the word everything is pretty all encompassing.
Alex Judd:Like, that's literally what everything is. It's all encompassing. Right? Like, comprehensive in everything. You know, wrap your head around for a little bit what it would look like to do this for everything Mhmm.
Alex Judd:By prayer and supplication. So prayer is a communion with God, verbal communion with God. Supplication is asking God to supply your needs. So that is requesting. And then he adds this tag in there, which is worth underlining, circling, highlighting, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.
Alex Judd:So I think the first thing that I would say is it's not a denial of need. It's not that at all. It's saying, man, I do need things. That's why we're we have requests that need to be made known to God. There are needs that I have, but my proper response to that is not to be anxious.
Alex Judd:That's the common response. Mhmm. Man, I have needs. I, in myself, am not sufficient. And so, therefore, because I see my vulnerability and inefficiency totally and completely exposed, I'm gonna be anxious.
Alex Judd:In reality, what this is saying, man, bring those things to God in prayer, ask for them, but but part of that is, like, with thanksgiving, which is interesting because you're saying I need things, and he's saying, well, make sure that when you when you commune with God on what you need, you're also being thanked. Mhmm. And I I mean, I don't think anything in this book is an accident. I really don't think that's an accident. Yeah.
Alex Judd:I'd love to get your thoughts on, you know, why with thanksgiving was so worth putting two commas in that sentence. Right? Because they're there.
Ben Loy:Yeah. I guess I have two thoughts. The the first one is if we understand our greater need for God and who he is, it that informs our our tangible needs, our our requests, and and the things in our life that are like, yeah, God, will you come through here? Will you supply this? Will you, will you bless this endeavor?
Ben Loy:And so if we don't have an understanding and a heart of thankfulness for what Jesus has done for us in in in the first place, like, how are we gonna come to the Lord with any any heart of gratitude, you know? That's when I think God turns into the the the genie. Right? The, like, I'm gonna come to him with these requests for things that I need and my view of who he is is pretty much completely dependent on whether or not those things come to fruition. Right?
Alex Judd:You mean my concept of God as Robin Williams in Aladdin, like, blue Exactly. Not correct. That's not what?
Ben Loy:But I mean, that is that is really if we don't acknowledge our our greater need for who for who God is and and what Jesus has done for us, that's really what it becomes. And so flipping that on its head and going, oh no, I'm going to acknowledge In the same way Hannah did, right? I'm gonna acknowledge him as all powerful. I'm gonna acknowledge him as so much bigger than than me and my story. And then from there, like petition him for the things that I know that he cares about because he said that he loves us.
Alex Judd:Yeah. In response to anxiety, we can say, man, I'm to opt for the strategy that says I'm not gonna trust in anything. I'm gonna try to control everything. Which that will, not might. It will make you more anxious because you can't control everything.
Alex Judd:So so that's a failing strategy. Or you can say, man, in the face of my insufficiency and the anxiety that comes along with it, I'm gonna trust in my ability to become sufficient
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Also a failing strategy. It doesn't work. Right? And so then what is being advocated we do here is, in the face of my insufficiency and it's a complementary anxiety, what am I going to trust in? I'm gonna trust in God in prayer.
Alex Judd:So so I'm gonna focus on things I can control, which there are some things I can control, but then I'm gonna pray to God for the things that I cannot control. I'm gonna trust him for those things. And how do we build trust and confidence? Well, it's probably gratitude for what he's already done for us in the past. Yep.
Alex Judd:You know, I think there's probably a good tie in here of, like, the Jewish people to this day are so good at remembering. Yep. Right? Like, do not forget the God that brought them out of Egypt across the Red Sea. Two thousand years removed, they do not forget that moment, and they rehearse that moment.
Alex Judd:They remember that moment because if we look back and we say, man, remember all the times that you were in a bind before, and God didn't just take you to it, he got you through it. To sound like doctor Seuss. Then, man, that's gonna give me a lot of confidence for this moment. And so I think that's one of the reasons practically why with thanksgiving is in there is because, man, if you are facing a wall that that you're like, man, I don't know how I am going to get over this, whether it's an obstacle that you generated or one that was generated by circumstance or something that you've just never even faced before. Well, what's really, really helpful is to realize, man, there were times in my life previous to this moment where there were walls that I didn't think I could get over, and we are now here.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And when you remember that, it gives you the the courage and faith just to take another step.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Well, what does the next verse there say? Right? It says, and I have CSV, so it might be slightly different than your
Alex Judd:version there. So, just a little bit wrong is what you're saying. Yeah. Exactly. Oh gosh.
Alex Judd:I immediately feel really bad for a second.
Ben Loy:With thanksgiving, present your request to God and the peace of God which surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Jesus in Christ Jesus. And what is the antithesis to anxiety? It's it's peace. Right? And if we're practicing gratitude on a level where it is it is formed trust with God, it has created resilience in our understanding of who he is, Like, that in turn is going to it's I mean, it says, will guard your hearts and minds.
Ben Loy:Like, guard your hearts and minds from, like, what causes us anxiety in this society? Like, discontentment, comparison, just general busyness and getting like, if you have a if you have a right understanding of who God is, what he's done for you and you're practicing gratitude, I mean, this is what it says. Like, it is literally, you are fortifying your heart and your mind against against anxiety. Yeah. So
Alex Judd:So good. I mean, you think about think about what Paul was doing. Right? And think about what Paul was doing from a leadership perspective. Right?
Alex Judd:This is a guy that is, you know, I think it takes incredible leadership capacity to start anything from the ground up. Right? You know, add another layer of difficulty and probably emotional and human complexity and make the thing that you're starting a church in a culture where people had I mean, not even just, intense opinions, violent opinions about what you were doing. And just to step out and say, I'm gonna plant this. I'm gonna launch this.
Alex Judd:I'm gonna start this. Whether it's a startup or a church is an endeavor in itself. And Paul dedicated, you know, a a massive portion of his life to not just doing that once, but doing that multiple place multiple times, multiple places Yeah. Different geographic locations. Like, this guy, I mean, is a pretty stalwart leader.
Alex Judd:He was constantly on the precipice of not what was, but what is going to be, and he was, like, leaning forward. He he saw where things were going, and he was on offense with that. And and so in some ways, I read this. I'm like, well, this is his playbook. This is how he was able to do that.
Alex Judd:If anyone probably could be pretty anxious, it, he probably would have a pretty good excuse to be anxious. And so he's saying, how do you operate with peace, prayer, supplication with thanksgiving? And what's crazy is that peace that you get from that prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, it's weird that it's like an active peace. Like, it is guarding your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus is what it says. It's like, if you think of, like, centurion standing guard not allowing the messages of our worry filled culture to get into your head, like, that's what's happening here.
Alex Judd:And, man, so powerful. Mhmm. Right? But it you know, I guess another practical takeaway on this is peace peace is not just something we passively receive. Like, he he does allude to the fact that we have a role to play in our peace.
Alex Judd:We we don't we are not the sole inventors or creators of our piece, and our piece does not come from us, but we're also not these passive victims hoping for peace to be bestowed upon us. Yeah. Was there something you were gonna say there?
Ben Loy:I was gonna ask you. Was there anything else that you you wanted to know on this verse?
Alex Judd:Well, I think the verses following it, in some ways, are, like, his practical takeaways because he does this, like, super epic list, which I'm a sucker for a good list. And he says, like, finally, brothers, whatever is right, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there's any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about such things. So if just being grateful, if we just say be grateful is a little bit too generalized a statement, He breaks it down for us. And what's so cool is, you know, in working on this verse some, I I've done this exercise a few times now where I just go through my day and say, man, what was right today? What what was, what was honorable today?
Alex Judd:What was commendable today? You know, is there anything that was excellent excellent today? Is there anything that was worthy of praise today? And, you know, if you want better results, ask better questions. Like, he gives us a great series of questions, and then he literally says, think about these things.
Alex Judd:He's telling us what to think about. And you cannot feel bad after spending two minutes thinking through that list. Like, you you can't do it. And so, you know, this is where we gotta put some skin in the game in some ways and be like, okay, he's giving me the playbook. Now I need to run the play.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And are we going to execute? Which is yeah. It's it's such a gift.
Ben Loy:Yeah. This is this is a this is a kind of funny story. The just the the idea of practices and and gratefulness and practicing gratefulness. I was on a backpacking trip once with these two friends and it was two nights. The first night, we hike up, relatively low mileage, like, think it was, like, six miles, and then spend the night on this lake in the Cascades in Oregon.
Ben Loy:And it is I mean, it is pristine. It is beautiful. We're the only ones out there. It was just a gorgeous night. Stars were out.
Ben Loy:Fourth of July weekend, like, it was it was just the you know, picture perfect. We we wake up the next day and we hike up to the next lake that we were going to, camp at that night. And we do a little day hike and we get back and it's maybe three or four in the afternoon. And I don't know what it was about the difference between the day before and this day, but this is the day that every every egg for mosquitoes in the state of Oregon decided to just instantaneously hatch. We're here.
Ben Loy:And and, I mean, it was like it was insane how many there were and no way to escape. And so what we end up at the end of this hike, like, we run out of bug spray. We we run out of everything. We build a campfire. We're, like, trying to use smoke to to get rid of them.
Ben Loy:At one point, we're in the lake in this, like, probably it's pretty cold, like in the sixties degree lake, like up to our eyes with hats on. And we're like, well, this is fun. And we get into our tents and we just retire. It's like 5PM and the sun's still up. I'm, like, in my hammock with the bug net and, my friends Chad and Erica are in their tent and we're just laying there.
Ben Loy:And the next day, we're hiking out, still getting eaten alive by mosquitoes, and we were just talking about the night before. And I don't know how the conversation came up, but Chad was, like, yeah, I was just laying there and I just started to, like, list all the things that I was grateful for. And I was just, like, a, convicted because I was, like, that is not what I was doing. I was just staring at the mosquitoes, like, circling above me, you know, going, oh, this sucks. Like, you know, this is not at all what we pictured would be happening.
Ben Loy:And but at the same time, like, yeah, what a great what a great practice of of gratefulness. And, when you have a framework like this, like, scripture is literally giving you the playbook of, like, this is how to be grateful, this is how to find peace, is to meditate on these things.
Alex Judd:Yeah. I I would tell people, because it's been so beneficial to me, if you're looking for something to memorize, that list is really good. Whatever is right, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, if there's any excellence, if there's anything worthy of praise. Like, that list serves as a prompt for what to be grateful for that you can literally pull out at any time Mhmm. Including when you are surrounded by
Ben Loy:mosquitoes, which is really
Alex Judd:okay. Can I do the, can I do the next one? Yes. Because I think it's actually directly related. So To mosquitoes?
Alex Judd:No. Not to this well, I I actually wouldn't be surprised if there were some mosquitoes in this story, but, yeah, you never think about Jesus swatting a mosquito. Yeah. Is that something he would do, or is that yeah. I don't know.
Alex Judd:Okay. So it's John six, and and I'll start at verse four. Man, it's almost a little bit like an I spy because you can miss this. I I I just read this the other day, and I would not have gone seeking this passage for this episode, but but I went I went through this passage just part of my own as part of my own, like, morning devotion. And and I as a result, because I knew we were playing this episode, like, stopped smack dab in the middle.
Alex Judd:So see if you can catch it. So it says, now the Passover, the feast of the Jews was at hand, lifting up his eyes then and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, where are we to buy bread so that these people may eat? He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do. Philip answered him, 200 denarii worth of bread would not be enough for each of them to get a little. So there's obviously 5,000 people sitting there, and they say that's 5,000 men.
Alex Judd:So it was actually probably more than that. One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to him, there's a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish. But what are they for so many? Jesus said, have the people sit down. Now there was much grass in the place.
Alex Judd:So the men sat down, about 5,000 in number. Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated, so also the fish as much as they wanted. And when the disciples had eaten their fill, he told the disciples, gather up the leftover fragments that nothing may be lost. So they gathered them up and filled 12 baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves left by those who had eaten. So people are hungry.
Alex Judd:Jesus recognizes the need, gives thanks, feeds the people, and sends them home with a to go box. Like, how epic is that? But obviously, the the piece here that just stood out to me is when he had given thanks and particularly where that happens in the story. Like, it does not happen post miracle. It happens pre miracle.
Alex Judd:And there's a couple things here that we could say, man, he might be giving thanks for. The five barley loaves and two fish is probably one of them, and it seems as though that's one of them. Also, the fact that everyone has grass to sit down on, like, the fact that that's listed in the scripture, like, now everyone had, like, a a nice piece of grass. Like, enough grass for 5,000 people is no joke. Right?
Alex Judd:But then also just, you know, the forethought and the wherewithal to give thanks for everything that already exists that's good before you're about to get more good, I I think, to your point, is both convicting but also really inspiring. And if Jesus can do that, then, man, am I not called to give thanks for the things that I don't deserve but do get to experience right now? Not because I'm not asking for more, but in pursuit of more, start with thanks.
Ben Loy:So it's just so interesting to think of Jesus, like, giving thanks, you know, and I guess the you think about, like, the dynamic of, yeah, what was he giving thanks for? Just the fact that, like, even he acknowledges, like, the father's provision, you know, which is cool.
Alex Judd:And what's interesting here is, like, the, the disciple's response or the disciple disciple's thought process is probably most reflective of my typical thought process. Mhmm. Right? Because they see the five barleys and and the two fish. Right?
Alex Judd:The the five loaves and the two fish. And their immediate response is, well, we have this, but what is that for so many? Mhmm. And so, basically, they're like, yeah. We have something, but it's basically nothing compared to the need.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. And, man, how many times do I do that? Right? Where I say, sure, I have something. I I mean, yeah, I don't have nothing, but I but it's basically nothing because look at all everything that needs to be done or look at everything that could be done or look at everything that I need right now.
Alex Judd:Meanwhile, Jesus takes those five loaves and and two fish and says, man, thank god for this. Thank god for the five loaves and the two fish. So he's thankful for what he has, and and then he requests the miracle, which is, man, so, so, so good. So my practical takeaway here is, like, man, take stock, take inventory of what you have right now and say thanks for those. Bless those.
Alex Judd:Because that will change the way you experience what what happens with those.
Ben Loy:Yeah. Yeah. I guess when you understand every blessing, everything that we have, like, I mean, the world the world sits in, like, the hands of of God. Right? I mean, he he, in his grace, like, suspends the laws of physics that, like, keep us together and, like, allow us to live this life.
Ben Loy:And, like, if you when you're when you're able to to step back and just acknowledge even even the small things and the ways that that God is providing, yeah, it's just gonna change your heart posture. Mhmm. In the realm of of thanksgiving, do you think that this passage speaks to our, like, expectation at all of what the Lord could do or what the Lord, like, can use in our lives?
Alex Judd:I mean, I think it probably should. Yeah. I don't think it's exaggerating to say, like, the miracles that we read about and even the miracles that we hear about, God always starts with what is and then, you know, creates what could be. But you gotta start with what is. And it's hard for him to work in and through what is if we can't even see that.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, and and how are we gonna get to be a part of what he wants to be, like, what he wants to create, what he wants to become if, like, we're not even grateful for what is. Right? And there you know, then it's helpful to remember that the thing that is my is is someone else's miracle. Right?
Alex Judd:The thing that I just call every day is someone else's mir someone is praying for a car right now. Right? Someone needs a car right now, and that's their prayer. And meanwhile, I'm I just turn on my car, and it works. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, we better be grateful. You know? It connects to that. It was so powerful for me when I realized, like, d, the the prefix d is apart or away from. And so you apply that to deserve.
Alex Judd:Like, I deserve this
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:Or everything that I experience right now, I deserve. It's like deserved. Apart or away from serve. Mhmm. You cannot serve.
Alex Judd:You cannot be open handed. You cannot be loose grip. You certainly can't live in the overflow if you you're operating from entitlement. Mhmm. And gratitude is how we get away from entitlement.
Alex Judd:Right? I the is what I was gonna say earlier is the Jewish people that we know do such a wonderful job of before they take a bite of anything or a drink of water, they just murmur this blessing. Right? Like, they they just say, blessing to god for what has been given to them. And, hopefully, those of us that practice the Christian faith also take take this into account.
Alex Judd:Right? I think it's something that I've I was to say one practical thing that I did to take my faith more seriously over the course of the past probably five years, it was I'm gonna pray before every meal. Like, I I'm you know, it used to be I pray before some dinners, and then it became before all dinners. And now it's like, I'm gonna pray before every meal. And that is honestly, I think it's an easier standard than sometimes or when I feel like it or stuff like that.
Alex Judd:I I you know, I think it's an easier standard. But, you know, it's not just to check the box. It's like the food that is sitting in front of me right now is total gift, and I am not guaranteed to it. And everything that I've experienced today is total gift, and I'm not guaranteed to get it or experience to it. And and, you know, if we think about the science of habit building, it's cue habit reward.
Alex Judd:So cue is something that you're you're already doing. It's already habitualized, like sitting down to eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The habit is the thing that you do, and then the reward is the thing that reinforces the habit, eating. Right? And so there is such, the structure for gratitude is built into our life through this thing called food.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:And, man, it's so helpful to sit down and just before you take your first bite to have the cue sound, sitting down, to say a prayer, and then, and then to enjoy the food. And what I find is when I actually take a deep breath and pray well, like, with my heart before eating, I enjoy the food more. Yeah. Novel idea. Right?
Alex Judd:Yeah.
Ben Loy:Well, and from the idea of, that verse in Philippians, like, I mean, creating resilience, right, guarding your heart, guarding your mind, like, that takes like, with anything, I mean, if you wanna create resilience in any area, if you wanna get stronger, if you wanna get faster, if you wanna yeah, I mean, like, if you wanna develop a skill of any kind, right? Like, it takes consistent practice and you're implementing gratitude as a consistent practice throughout your day. Mhmm. Going back to this verse in John, this idea of seeing, like, what is, but then also having a vision of, like, what could be and and the and the potential or or the the the way things could go. Right?
Ben Loy:And and through gratitude and just your understanding of who God is, like, having having an understanding of of what's maybe even possible. How like, what would you say, like, with that frame? Because I feel like that's a struggle. And, I mean, you you fall into, like, the visionary category as a leader. And and, like, how does someone in that position or in that leadership role balance, like, gratitude and gratefulness, but also, like, a lot of them, visionaries in general, are just wired with the, like, this is what could be.
Ben Loy:This Yeah. These are the possibilities. Like So, yeah,
Alex Judd:balancing gratitude and and contentment. Yeah. You're I know you're using the EOS term visionary. I I think being called a visionary leader is incredibly intimidating. I
Ben Loy:Well, I I I'm using visionary less than the EOS term and more of just, like, the the disposition of, like, yeah, sees and ideates, like, what could be.
Alex Judd:Sure. Right? Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I mean, I've I've never thought about this through this lens before, but let's think about, like, who probably had the best vision of what could be. Well, the guy in this story is pretty good.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, I mean, when he's playing praying your kingdom come, your will be done, it's like he knows exactly what that looks like. Right? And and so he knows what the kingdom of God is. And for us, our goal is to be ambassadors for bringing that to to the earth as well.
Alex Judd:Right? So the kingdom of God, what is good, what is right, what is beautiful, what is true. Jesus is the one who had the greatest vision for what is most good, most right, most beautiful, most true. I heard someone say once that heaven is the place that is perfect and always getting better. Like, What is that?
Alex Judd:Right? And Jesus knew what that looked like. And also Jesus doesn't know time, so he knew every iteration of what perfect and always getting better looked like. Right? You're talking about visionary leader.
Alex Judd:Oh my gosh. Meanwhile, though, he's, like, here, like, with, people that are, I mean, irritable, jealous, paranoid, anxious, angry, fearful, murderous. Like, he's here in the midst of sin and and, I mean, real brokenness. And he's not just, like, a spectator. He's, like, in it.
Alex Judd:He can see it. He's in the grit and the grime. And it's like he doesn't lose hold of what could be. He doesn't lose hold of what clear I mean, clearly, the vision of what is most good, right, beautiful, and true is the thing that is compelling him to move forward through hard things and through the most difficult thing ever. Right?
Alex Judd:But then at the same time, he is grateful for what is. Like, there's snapshots of good, right, beautiful and true here right now. And maybe one of those snapshots here is, God, you gave us you gave us this bread, and you gave us this fish, and you gave us 5,000 people whose whose ears are, like, their radar is on for what's going on in the kingdom of God right now. And so he says, it's not everything it could be. And I and I am fully aware of that, but that's not gonna keep me from being grateful right now.
Alex Judd:And and I struggle with that sometimes because there's times where I I will have such a clear vision of what it could be that I see something right now that there are things going on right now that are objectively good, right, beautiful, and true, but I can't see them because I'm I'm so compelled for my vision of what could be. And sometimes we call that good leadership, and that's not Right? It's and it gets into one of the other verses we wrote down. It's like good leadership is saying, man, we have so much to be grateful for right now, and we are going to use that, that five loaves and two fishes, the springboard into what could be. But we're not gonna demean, devalue, or degrade what is so that we can pursue what could be.
Alex Judd:We're gonna be thankful and growing, I think, is what we should focus on. Cool. That is a good question. That's a really good question. I shouldn't sound surprised.
Alex Judd:I mean, you always ask good questions. Yeah. Do do we have time for one more?
Ben Loy:Yes. Yeah. We do. Okay.
Alex Judd:You go for it.
Ben Loy:Okay. This is another full chapter, but we'll we'll we'll speak through it.
Alex Judd:Very good.
Ben Loy:Psalm one thirty six.
Alex Judd:Okay.
Ben Loy:Growing up, my mom used to read the bible to my brothers and I. Mhmm. And, like, we'd sit down and every time we would hit this psalm, after every phrase in the psalm is the the phrase, his love his faithful love endures forever. Mhmm. And for whatever reason, my mom, instead of having instead of her reading that, she would read the first part aloud and then we would repeat his faithful love endures and I just remember as a little kid, like, just being, like, his faithful love endures forever.
Ben Loy:His faithful And then not really knowing because I didn't really know the passage that well, like, when it was going to end. So just, like, going on and on and on. But but it it's cool, like, as an as an adult, like, looking looking at this and I mean, it begins and ends with just the phrase, give thanks to the Lord for he is good. And that is mean, it is just a statement. Right?
Ben Loy:Like, give thanks to the Lord for he is good. Like, that is who God is. And at the end it says, give thanks to the God of heaven. But in between, kind of, on that idea that we were talking about of of remembrance, it's just this story of, I think, David who wrote this going through all of the ways that, like, God has been faithful to his people and every single statement after every single statement stating his faithful love endures forever. So I'm gonna read this real quick and then we can we can talk about it.
Ben Loy:Cool. Give thanks to the Lord for he is good. His faithful love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods. His faithful love endures forever.
Ben Loy:Give thanks to the Lord of lords. His faithful love endures forever. He alone does great wonders. His faithful love endures forever. He made the heavens skillfully.
Ben Loy:His faithful love endures forever. He spread the land on the waters. His faithful love endures forever. He made the great lights. His faithful love endures forever.
Ben Loy:The sun to rule the by day. His faithful love endures forever. The moon and the stars to rule by night. His faithful love endures forever. He struck the firstborn of the Egyptians.
Ben Loy:His faithful love endures forever and brought Israel out from among them. His faithful love endures forever. With a strong hand and outstretched arm, his faithful love endures forever. He divided the Red Sea. His faithful love endures forever and led Israel through.
Ben Loy:His faithful love endures forever, but hurled Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea. His faithful love endures forever. He led his people in the wilderness. His faithful love endures forever. He struck down great kings.
Ben Loy:His faithful love endures forever and slaughtered famous kings. His faithful love endures forever. Sihon, king of the Amorites, his faithful love endures forever. And Og, king of Bashan, his faithful love endures forever, and gave their land as an inheritance. His faithful love endures forever.
Ben Loy:An inheritance to Israel for his servant. His faithful love endures forever. He remembered us in our humiliation. His faithful love endures forever and rescued us from our foes. His faithful love endures forever.
Ben Loy:He gives food to every creature. His faithful love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of heaven. His faithful love endures forever. Just yeah.
Ben Loy:I mean, I don't know of any other passage in the bible that just, like, repeats the same thing over and over and over and over and over again like this does. And it I mean, it is just a prayer of, like, thanks thankfulness and, like, remembering how God has provided for first of all, like from the beginning, right? I mean, first seven or eight verses is just the creation story and he's stopping at every line and through that, like through telling the creation story is emphasizing not God's ability or his, you know, in in the way that that he created the world. He's just just acknowledging his love. Mhmm.
Ben Loy:Like, faithful, steadfast, unchanging love. Right? Mhmm. And then it moves from there into his from his creation and his love love of the world goes into, like, God's love for his people and how he's provided for his people. And then I love because this is kind of a full circle moment that I didn't connect until just now, but we were just talking about giving thanks for food.
Ben Loy:The second to last verse is, he gives food to every creature. Mhmm. And just that, it's like, man, we can remember we can remember the big, the expansive, reality that like God's very character is, or this world is just suspended and sits in like the grace of God and in His love for us. He created the world that we get to live and experience in us. And then from there, like, can also look to the way that he has provided for his people and the love through Jesus that he showed for us through his sacrifice and his, yeah, just, again, like, that steadfast love, I mean, the ultimate sacrifice to to rescue us.
Ben Loy:And then from there, it goes back to just he gives food to every creature, like, thanking him for for the provision, for the for the daily, right? For the the ways in which that he he provides and blesses us and and then obviously ends with just his his character and who he is. Like, he is the god of heaven. Like, give thanks to the god of heaven. And it's all through his love for us and his creation.
Alex Judd:I I love that you you chose this chapter. Yeah. When we said, low, let's just choose a couple verses.
Ben Loy:Sorry. I just choose chapters.
Alex Judd:Overflowing, man. Overflowing. I love it. But but, no, I I I love that we took the time to to read this whole thing on the back end of this episode. Let me ask you this.
Alex Judd:Why is Psalm one thirty six critically important for leaders in particular?
Ben Loy:Well, you talk about the idea of overflow. Right? Mhmm. God's
Alex Judd:We do talk about the idea of overflow. We're not gonna say why we're talking about that so much, but we do talk about that.
Ben Loy:I mean, God's love is is overflow. It is it is so expansive to to the degree that, like, we can't even understand it. And through his love, we can be grateful for, like, all the things that that we just listed. Right? Creation, the way that he provides for his people, And then there's the daily things.
Ben Loy:Think as a leader in a practical sense, making a practice of gratitude, and like praying to God with thankfulness and with gratitude in a repetitive way and in a way that is exhibited in this chapter. Richard Fosters in his book, The Celebration of Discipline in his prayer chapter, he says to pray is to change. Like that is the that is the ultimate result of praying is is, like, our posture of prayer and humility and and petitioning to God and any and our thankfulness is, like, submitting ourselves and acknowledging our need for him. And as a leader, like, if you if you come from the posture of, yeah, like, it's it's all on me. I am the one that steers this ship and it is it is I am the one that drives the end result without a greater understanding of the purpose and mission that you're working towards and how God ultimately has control over the results, you're gonna fall into anxiety.
Ben Loy:You're gonna feel frazzled. You're going to maybe become misaligned in your actions or even your intentions at times. And just the continued submission to God and the acknowledgement of his unlimited love for us, and our need for that love will, I think, just keep you keep you aligned.
Alex Judd:Mhmm. Well said. It's funny to think about, like, if we went into chat GPT and said, I want you to not, like, wipe your memory of scripture. Don't think about scripture, and then we copy and paste this in there and said, critique this writing. I can almost guarantee you it would be like, there's value in repetition, but this is too much.
Alex Judd:Right? Like, we get it. Right? But then we think about what we thankfully, our our mind hasn't been wiped with scripture, and so we can say, like, all scripture is God breathed, and all scripture Paul says is profitable, right, for teaching, course correcting, exhorting, of that. Right?
Alex Judd:So it's all God breathed, and it's all profitable. There's no mistakes in this book. And so clearly, we don't get it. Mhmm. Right?
Alex Judd:Like, you could say, okay. You could probably do 10 of these lines and then say his faithful love endures forever four times instead of, you know, whatever it is, 27 times or whatever. And and it's it's actually like, no, we don't get it enough. And, like, we need to be reminded every other line Mhmm. That it's all him.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And and for me, I I think that's good for me to to remember as a person. And if I remember it as a person, it always has implications for my leadership.
Ben Loy:Mhmm.
Alex Judd:The the other thing, I guess it's a question is, do we know, is this a Davidic psalm? Like, did David write this psalm?
Ben Loy:I I don't. I'm not sure. And that's why I was like, I think it's David, but I actually
Alex Judd:I've Could you look at that real quick? Yeah. Let's see if Psalm one thirty six is a Davidic psalm. Because if it is, I think there's an interesting leadership takeaway in there.
Ben Loy:Has no title. Its specific author is unknown. It is considered very likely to be Davidic.
Alex Judd:Okay. So So likely written by David. In light of that, it's like, you know, you you would have to believe that anything David is saying or writing down is like, he knows this is for me, but this is also for the people that I'm responsible Like, I'm responsible for leading a nation of people. And and, you know, you would think he likely knows that the the words that he's write writing down are going to be used, seen, understood, prayed by other people elsewhere. What a great example of, like, what do I want to lead the charge in my people doing remembering and being grateful for all that God has done?
Alex Judd:And I don't think it's a stretch to assume that that could have been one of the motivating factors of what he was doing here is, like, I'm going to set the example for what it looks like to be outrageously grateful for all God has done for me and, by extension, us.
Ben Loy:Well, this episode's gonna air the week of Thanksgiving, and I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think it's given me a lot to think about. But I guess one of the things that I would encourage anyone who's listening is as they sit around their Thanksgiving table and awkwardly go around and say the things that they're thankful for, like, what would it look like to take that beyond the weekend of Thanksgiving and and really step back, look at your life, and and examine, like, how can I implement gratitude as a daily and regular practice? And, I mean, I know that's definitely something I'll be doing. So
Alex Judd:And I would say, I I, know and have been at Thanksgiving tables where it's like we don't do the go around the table and say what we're thankful for because it feels a little awkward, or or no one wants to put their foot forward and be like, I think we should do this, and I don't think we should do this as, like, a laughing thing. I think we should take this really seriously and, like, actually get put a little bit of ourselves in there. Someone's gotta go first.
Ben Loy:Yeah.
Alex Judd:Yeah. And I would challenge you if you're listening to this, don't you dare listen to this podcast episode and then not be willing to be the person that goes first. Right? We're gonna talk about this in an episode coming up on recognition is it's like a lot of times we avoid recognition and gratitude because they feel vulnerable. And in vulnerability, leaders go first.
Alex Judd:So take the lead on this holiday, and then like Ben said, beyond this holiday, to lead with gratitude. Thanks, Alex. Thanks, Ben. Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.
Alex Judd:If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Notes. Hey. Before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode?
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