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This week in home building news! Catch up with Az and a colourful array of guests, to hear about who's killing it, who's innovating, and who's getting into strife in the world of new home construction.
Aaron Ng (00:00)
Now, before I get into it, a big shout out to the legends at my construct.
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Az (00:59)
All right. Well, welcome back to the Good Builder Podcast. We have one of the most entertaining guys that we've had on before that talks a very serious game. And we're going to talk about a very serious issue today. And it was actually this legend here that approached me. And you've probably seen him all over the news and everything by the time we release this, because he's been talking about this particular case. But we're going to talk about the Bathla
collapse today and and a lot of you out there would have known because you would have received an email that we put out to all the builders in our community saying commu sorry builders and trades in our community saying, you know, what do you want to know about this collapse? is anyone out there affected? How can we help you get some information from someone who knows the game very well?
Now my guest today is Chris Baskerville. He's got his own podcast himself. Yeah, good morning, mate. We have good faces for radio, I'm told. I think I'll get more of those comments. Last time we had you on though, Chris, we talked about insolvency and the scary things and the and the grim reaper coming in and stuff like that. But I'll tell you what, you are one of the best received podcasts and people absolutely loved it. We got lots of comments around it.
they probably don't need you right now, which is a good thing. Yeah, yeah, we hear that all the time. But the way you spoke about it was was amazing, mate. So well it's good to be back. And and it was funny because when Bathla went down, it's a it's a New South Wales construction jump company, so it's isolated to typically New South Wales and the contractors around that. And then and then a a spark in my head said, How can we take how can we take advantage of someone else's news story?
And then I thought, you know what? I'm going to call Aaron and reach out because I figured this might be a great way to reach your audience, who we think it's the s subcontractors and trade suppliers around Bathla that are going to hurt out of this. I love it. And then as a result of that, we got onto our PR team who said, Well, why don't we issue a press release comparing Bathla to the Carellian group that fell over in the UK? Because what we're trying to predict is.
What what is the fallout and what's the timing of the fallout? And we just went, my God, this is big. This is gonna be big. Yeah. Well, what about the Corillial group? What happened there? Can you tell us a little bit of a background about what that looked like? And then we're gonna get into 10 questions that the audience have asked. And I've pretty much got Chris that I'm just gonna hit him with and you're just gonna sit there and answer and mate off the cuff. So And and it's funny because as a joke, Aaron and I came up with the idea.
let's go let's go to the audience. Let's ask the questions. But Aaron only gave me five of the ten up front. That's true. And the other five are going to be dropped on us live. So thank you. That's great. But all right, Corellian in the United Kingdom in 2018 was UK's second largest builder. Wow. So huge. And the the total debt burden was just shy of six billion pounds. Right? Big, well, like we're talking big numbers here.
The after the fallout, there was a UK parliamentary inquiry. So in other words, the government had fired up its own inquiry, came up with its own reports. Subsequent to 18, a whole lot of academics looked at all the numbers, came up with their versions of reports. So we're able to pull, we're able to pull these reports and to see what the ultimate fallout was. But the headline, the headline conclusion or the headline element of it is once Corellian fell over.
Within 24 hours, the very first trade supplier fell over. Within four weeks, five of the major trading suppliers that were so attached to Corellian fell over. And then there was this huge lump of the major fallout was in from day one until about 12, 18 months. That was where most of the damage caused. The Corellian showed the UK in 2018 into 2019.
Construction was already thirteen percent above their average insolvency rate. Corellian added another twenty percent on top of that. my god. Yeah. So that that's the just their incident. Just that one collapse. That is why you contacted us and that's why. So correct. This is the first time we actually like Chris has been alluding to a few of the things and you've probably seen a lot of it on on the news anyway, and you've spoken to it.
But that is phenomenal, mate. That is like almost, yeah, it's it's it's contributing greatly to and what's gonna happen here. So we go back to Winston Churchill and Winston Churchill says the further you look back in the past, the more you can see into the future, right? That's the baseline. So so taking that same analogy, if we were looking at Corellian and we watched the fallout and the ultimate fallout and how it all played out, we're applying that same
Scenario to the Bathla group, and we're like, wow, we can we can see if you if you follow that same pattern of behavior, you're gonna see the same full hair. Yeah. Well. Now we obviously hope it doesn't have it. Mate, but no, but you were the only one pretty much in Australia that identified that. That's why the media agencies have latched onto you, including us. Yeah. And then you went out there. I I think it's like I actually spoke with a gentleman from Creation Homes yesterday, and he said,
You're actually doing a duty for the industry. Honestly, Chris. And I'm not just saying that. Like he's like, You're educating them so we can protect what's about to go on and they can know what's going on. So this one's gonna be quite interesting. So if you don't mind, do you want me to kick off with the first question?
Yeah, let's let's get straight into it, Aaron. Straight into it? You ready, mate? Okay. All right. Now, is this one that you prepared earlier or is this a surprise? No, this one is one that I let's do a warm-up. This is one that was prepared earlier And this was the first one that came in. And this is I'm gonna read it out as quoted And question number one, Chris, is
Honestly, from where we sit, it looks like the administrators always get their fees while the rest of us get nothing. So I think this may have come from somebody who was involved or something. Quite interesting. Could be someone quite close to the coalface. Yeah. and I totally understand where that question or statement comes from.
I'm gonna say that I feel for the administrators in this administration, and and there's a there's a few reasons why, right? And I think this is a really important message. Not many people pick up on this. At law, when a voluntary administrator steps into the role as administrator of a company, they are at law personally liable immediately. So think about this.
There's a $3.4 billion debt burden on a company. Admittedly, there's obviously some assets there, roughly about four plus billion allegedly. But the administrator is personally liable as soon as they step into the role. Wow. Right? At law. yeah. my god. It's yours. Right. Number two, from what I'm hearing from some of the grabs that we can see from other media outlets, the administrators at a press conference said, we have no cash.
Which means that they stepped into the role with very little cash available to run this behemoth. Right. So we're personally liable, we have no cash. And then the from what I understand from again the sources from the other media outlets, the administrators had to borrow themselves one million bucks from their own firm in order to fund just the the hustle cash of registrating vehicles, fuel supplies, general go-to-go.
So the so the administrators have effectively started this job behind the eight ball, and they had to borrow from their own firm. Now that's a rare occurrence. It has happened before. Yeah. and so so it's yeah. So just putting all those three things, that's how they're starting the job. Now, the administrators kept 350 employees going from day dot, and they had to find another three and a half million just to cover the wages of.
of employees from the day that the administrators came. So that's why there was this press release and conference basically saying we need funds. We're talking to the secure creditors. We even asked state government for 20 million. this is the New South Wales state government. New South Wales state government rightly said no, we're not gonna give you that. but yeah, I mean that's a from an administrator's perspective to another administrator, I really feel for the the pressure that they're under. Yeah.
So that kind of dispels a myth that administrators get paid. Because it's kind of in one hand and out the other, Chris, really, isn't You're kind of refueling the wages of the people that you it's a calculated risk. It's a calculated risk. Now now I do it then. Because on the jobs where the assets are absolutely there to to cover your fees, well then and you're getting paid every single dollar, then it's completely worth it. Yeah. But I might just throw in there one other element.
As as administrators, liquidators, whatever, let's just call us as obviously practitioners, the average industry rate of the write-off of our fees is about 30%. Yeah. So let's put it in context. That means one third of the work we do, we don't get paid for. Wow. If if you put it that way. Now, how does how why is it still commercially viable? You're asking yourself.
Naturally, our hourly charge out rates are a lot higher than your average accountant. So your average accountant that's doing your tax returns and compliance is going to charge X. Yep, yeah. Our fees are going to be X times or plus fifty percent. Yeah. You know, if you put it in context. Because we have to factor in a failure rate. Wow. Yeah. And so that to remain viable. And that can occasionally
Happen, Chris. So you could you could be the appointed an administrator in a in a certain business. you know, you you're getting the cash to keep it operating or whatever and keeping it going, and then you go off to sell the assets. Yeah. And then and then you're just hoping that money rolls in at the value so described. Yeah, yeah. So that's that. Now everyone better listen to that because I think that is a very important thing. That's the commercial reason. Yeah. So
where was I going with that for yeah, well welcome, welcome to the show, ladies and gentlemen. So glamorous being a no one insultancy practitioner, right? No, no. But you're rolling around. I'll I'll tell you this. it's fun it's funny, you know, we're dads, we've both got daughters. I've got so I'm looking at it going, would I encourage my kids to follow in my footsteps in this trade? And I'm like, no. No, no, I would know what I know. No, I wouldn't do it. Because you sort of think about
who actually does make it in this game? You need a real relatively tough skin. You almost have to have zero empathy or as we say, tactical empathy. So you deploy your empathy tactically. but but but that's what you need to do because if you for one second have a have an empathy or a sympathy on each side, you actually lose objectivity in what you must do.
for the sake of everybody else. Yeah. You know, it's so easy to get bought into, my accountant robbed me blind and the the the spouse took everything and left me with nothing. You know, it's really easy to get caught into that.
Sucked in, you gotta go. I don't care. That was a real tough, really tough game, too, isn't it? Correct to English. Because I know you're a freaking good bloke. Like, thank you. I'm gonna put this on record, we'll get into the other questions. But I want him at the TGB fishing classic. That's how much I love you, mate. I'm like, you gotta come along. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, next question. All right, next question. All right, everyone's talking about the 200 staff stood down, but what about the rest of us? How many contractor suppliers are hanging off those 45 projects?
And how are we gonna find out or when do we find out how exposed we are? Yeah, that's interesting about the exposure. And I think we were talking about it just moments ago. This concept of concentration risk, and this is this is applies for all business, right? Is let's say you are a trading supplier or a subby and one hundred percent of your revenue is attached to Bathla Yep. And Bathla is now in humongous distress. Yep.
You basically have zero revenue coming in now. And and we say you should not be relying on any of that money that's exposed to come back, or at least if it's not gonna come back in a timely manner for you to pay your bills now. Yeah. So so don't rely on that money now. So everyone's like, in COVID, everyone's like, we've got to pivot our business. pivot's such a ugly word, but you gotta you gotta bloody pivot.
You've gotta you gotta fucking pivot. Like now's the time. B so so concentration risk from a revenue perspective. We we say, and this is just a rule of thumb, but if twenty-five percent of your money comes from one source, like w one one section, that is relatively a high risk sort of scenario. Anything more than twenty five, you're absolutely in in the gun sites for for hurt, you know. So
How do you calculate your exposure as a subby? Yeah. Work out how much money is is exposed to Bathla And now you have to operate your business assuming that money is not coming in. Or at least it's not going to come in in time to cover your wages and your electricity bills. And you know. I think I love that piece of advice, Chris. And I think it's the reality of it. And I think that's what they need to hear. Yeah. Because some people can sit there, and I know we saw a few comments and I and there were a few that were around this. And you can kind of feel these guys are going to sit there going,
Coming. It's coming. Well look. It might not be and it might well, I should I shouldn't say that 'cause I'm not a practitioner like yourself, but it may not be coming in that timely manner, but you need to get off your ass and go find another client and start making signs. Yeah, yeah. And I no, thank you. It's remember in COVID, Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York. And of course COVID's coming and sweeping in and
And the question everybody was asking, they're even asking the health organization, what do we do? And the health organization is do something. Like like do something. And and and Rudy Giuliani gets on and says, Hope is not a strategy. You cannot be sitting there hoping for something to happen. You gotta start making your own destiny now. I love it. Yeah. No, thank you for that one, Chris. Like we're
We're not going to have exact dates for you and that all the time, but we're giving you great advice on what you can do. And I that's a real critical one. And I will just say, just on the timing, right? So everyone's hanging out, hanging out, and I get that. the administrators, it might I predict that the administrators, because this is such a huge job, right? Ordinarily an administrator gets a report, a really critical report out within about the four week mark of their appointment. Yeah. Unless you extend that period by court order.
I reckon because of the complexity and the size of this, the administrators are going to extend that period by which they've got to give a a reasonably detailed report to the creditor body. So in other words, I d I just can't see a a an answer yeah, or an understanding of what the hell's just gone wrong, for for months. wow. No thank you, Chris. And and where's the administrator gonna focus their time and the energy? 'Cause they've already got rid of two hundred staff. So that's an in
Indication that they've effectively gotten rid of two thirds of their staff. So by proxy, you could probably say two thirds of the projects may be abandoned. And in other words, they're only going to focus on the one third that they can reasonably get funding for to complete. Now wow. The I guess the challenge for the subbies is working out am I in that one third or two thirds? You know, that's the challenge for the Subby. Yeah. and will they have other developers take over? Hopefully.
Yeah. The other projects. Yeah, well, generally what happens. Well, it's funny, funny you say that. So because of this media sort of rampage that we've been on lately, I had a builder from Sydney call me thinking I was the administrator. And he goes, Hey mate, I'm I'm I'm throwing my hat in the ring to complete some of these projects. wow. And I said, maybe you should call the administrator. And he says, You're not the administrator? You're doing the best commentary on it. Like you're doing the best, you're making a reason of it for the industry. Yeah and and for the public as well, mate.
Yeah, love what do, but yeah, he should have he must have been a pretty big builder. He was a class two builder in Sydney, so I don't know what that means under their licensing structure. But you you're right. Did in order to be able to handle this because of the volume of homes, I think two thousand odd. I mean, that's a lot. That's that's a lot of homes. Mate, it's wild. Wow. Mate, thank you for that one. All right. Next one. Now this one, is it spicy? Not really. what I want to know is
Where the money went. How does a company rack up 3.4 billion in debt without anyone raising the alarm? And does anyone actually investigate where it went? To start with the last question first, yeah, yes, an investigation is to be conducted by the administrators, but it's usually a preliminary investigation. So administrators have to do preliminary investigations because that all goes into this really chunky report that.
Is gonna come out to the whole creditor body, right? Wow. But it's preliminary. But an administrator doesn't typically have the powers that a liquidator would have if if Bathla was to be liquidated or wound up. So that it's really like scratching the surface type investigations. Okay. if I was the I'm pretty sure the administrators would be doing this, is you just watched where the money went.
Right. You always follow the money. In every investigation, just follow the money. Because that wherever that money has gone is is ultimately lands in a perpetrator's hands. So now that's assuming that there's been some misfeasance with the money. Yeah. But if it is legit that they were just borrowing here just to keep the trading suppliers and the and the subbies and the employees paid and and all they did was just
Scramble for cash to make sure that happened and no money went missing sideways that shouldn't have gone sideways. all of that does have to be investigated on a preliminary level. But it's really the deep dive is is done by liquidators because liquidators come with a power to then call that money back and enforce it on behalf of the creditor body. wow. So yeah, so administrators are there to hold hold and preserve the business or as much of it as possible. or
h raise the chances of creditors getting their money back, but they don't have the same powers that a liquidator has, if they had to change roles. So yeah, there was that one. lot of responsibility. Yeah, too. Yeah. Wow, okay. Why would you want to be us? I don't know. I don't know. I when I first met you, the first bit of you, I was looking at you, you look smart. I'm like, you're doing well for yourself. I'm like, shit, dang, it's all looking to go and now I'm talking to you now. I'm like, no, get the hell out of here.
what was the first part that question? So first part was what I want to know is where the money went. yeah, yeah, yeah. So so look, no one's gonna know. I I can't tell you. I wouldn't even wanna speculate. they release it publicly? no, no, no. Typically yeah, as we say in the game, or as as as I train my crew, don't telegraph your punches. so in other words.
What you're gonna do, you're gonna be beavering her away. As this is it with the administrators had and and using my liquid out of thinking, you're gonna beaver away, you're gonna call in all the evidence, you're gonna give very high level summaries to the credit body, but you never give away the detail, you never give it away as to who you know, where where the rats are in the in the s you never give that away. 'Cause you you yeah, don't telegraph your punches. Yeah. You know, you just punch. Bang
I don't know how you make this stuff so funny. You do. And you make sense of it all. That's the thing. Even like it's a really complex situation that we're talking about now, but you you make it so palatable in a way. not for you know the trades obviously that have been affected and stuff, but like at least we're getting some answers and some guidance and they've got some advice out there. So mate, you're you're a freaking legend. Thank you.
if the money's been shuffled around between related companies or family before the collapse, can that actually that was kind of my question, can that actually be traced down and clawed back? Or is it gone by the time the administrators walk in? The the money's gone. So so we let's just say the money's gone. So in other words, it's left the entity.
So, and that this is not unusual. This is how we this is sometimes where the game starts. Right. Yeah. So again, follow the money. So you'd work out exactly where the money's gone. And we have pretty cool powers to actually physically trace the money. so in other words, we can actually call on the banks to actually tell us specifically which bank account, BSB account number did this money land into. And the the banks are to an extent obliged to give us that.
When you go beyond that, does require a bit of assistance from the court to to to spread the wings to go a little bit further than that. Administrators, liquidators, deed administrators, and all that have a really cool tool up our belt. and we use this quite frequently, and it's called a public examination.
some people call it a public execution. because right, yeah, exactly. But this is all draconian laws that are still in play in modern modern corporations land. But the idea behind a public examination is the person conducting the examination, usually an eligible applicant, which is administrator and all that, we're calling for evidence. So what we're gonna do, we're gonna give you a list of people, entities,
even s in sometimes the banks and we s and we issue summons and we say, deliver us this evidence, deliver us this evidence, deliver us this evidence. And then to go one more step further, people will go into the witness box and effectively be cross-examined by us after the evidence has come in. And that gives you more evidence. So when you're hunting for the money, where did it go and all that?
Our thinking is always the related parties and close mates are always the primary beneficiaries. Yeah. And that's where we start the investigation. But you'll be surprised where the money sometimes goes. But we can you can actually get that evidence. It takes a long time though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so this is the thing. Yes, I think someone's going to spend a bit of time following the money, but it's gonna take years, years, because there's a whole legal process that has to unfold first before you get to a position where you can actually
Call that money back. Yeah. What you do is fascinating. Yeah. Chris. I think this is what keeps me in the team. but you I I and it and it's it's it's pretty intense. Yeah, it is. Isn't it? Yeah, we try and make it fun. but it's but there are moments, yeah, you you it's nose to the grindstone and Yeah, and asking hard questions. Yeah, and sometimes sometimes administrators we don't sleep at night because because of the stress element, which is
Wow, I am personally liable. I've got not only have I got the stakeholders of the entity, I'm also responsible to my business partners for the work that I do. I can't really expose them as well. and then of course we're all all accountable to our kids and spouses and yeah. And then the other thing is you're you're a genuinely good bloke and you're human. So to have that, you know, mindset of do what you need to do, you know, must tug at you at night sometimes about
Pretty sad and that was pretty sad and some elements. Yeah, there is an element of human. And there look, there is a tiny, tiny bit of me that does feel for certain people, and I'm happy to because it's like they themselves were good people just trying to make money. Yeah. Right. They were trying to do the right thing, pay the bills, pay the taxes, look after their employees, and then something's wiped them out. Yeah. as an example. We we run a good trade and Bathla
who's, you twenty-five percent of our revenue disappears and then that potentially wrecks that business. So for no fault of the person trying to do the right thing, they're falling over. Yeah. And I I I can we get we we can see that in in the people and how they conduct themselves. And and the obvious one is this.
If you tried your best and you did everything you could to follow the rules, pay the bills, make a profit. I mean, my God, make a profit. what happens is those people that are in distress come to us waving a white flag and they open the books immediately and go, mate, there you go. This is all this is all I got. This is this is how it all done. The people that are clandestine and cover up.
And don't want to give away information and like don't like you being there and all that. Yeah. They're the ones we go, hmm, there's something here. I think we should start prodding and poking more because because the the good guys open the books and go, there we go. This is this is what happened. Yeah. And we can see it, you know. Nah, very cool, Christian. All right, mate. Well, I think we're getting into the spicy one, not the spicy ones, but ones you don't know. Okay. One person has said, I've always said never work for developers.
You'll be lucky to get two cents in the dollar. Am I wrong? What do these subbies and suppliers actually get back in a collapse this big? Yeah, they're they're without seeing the numbers of Bathla, it's really difficult to give any context to it. But let's think about the numbers that are floating out there in Media Land. You got $3.4 billion worth of debt. Yeah. $3 billion is secured. So that means.
There's a there's a creditor that sits over the particular asset that obviously gets first bite of the cherry. Yeah. So that means you got 400 million of creditors that are not secured. And employees, tradies, trade suppliers are all in that realm. In that 400. Yeah, yeah. So then you got to measure it against: well, what are the assets that the administrators have in their hands?
And I presume there's a whole lot of land banking or land to be developed or partially built homes. Yeah. So the challenge is how do you turn those assets into cash? And will the market pay the cash required for those assets when we do have a situation where we've got falling prices? the cost of credit is going up. Yeah. and
And yeah. So it's difficult to see what the results are going to be. And and wow, I do hear what they're saying because if you look at ASIC's data, ninety percent of companies that go into liquidation near return zero percent, right? So I get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But administration gives an option for some version of a white knight or some version of a reconstruction that should aim to get creditors their money back, even if it is a percental percent chance.
Where that will all be disclosed will be in the administrator's report, where they have to outline all the numbers. Wow. And then ultimately tell creditors this is how much you're likely to get in all these different scenarios. Yeah. So unfortunately that one's a wait and see. But yeah, 90% of companies that get liquidated return 0%. But most companies that go into a deed of company arrangement, about two-thirds succeed. And
get some money back to the credit body. The question mark is how much? And and we're not gonna know until we see the administrators report. And there is a lot of work to be done in this job will the this job the administrators will, it'll be in the millions. If not, they'll probably get to about ten million in fees, I reckon, in in dealing with this job. That's that's my guess. It's definitely going o it's definitely going to be in the millions. Wow for the work they have to do to
To get through something. I've never really been exposed to this side of the world. Like I know we've had you on the podcast before that we talked about what you do, but not actually how you do it. Yeah. It is a tough gig, but yeah, it it it this has added a lot of clarity for me around how that all works. And I think it's adding a lot for them too. Yeah, well I hope so. I hope it does add value and that's you know, getting the inside. No, it does and and and and you know what an administrator has to go through to actually get the cash to actually
pay whatever they need to pay and and get things sorted. And I think there was an interesting very interesting man. Well w we're interesting. We were talking about just before. Yeah. I can't even remember if I even said in this podcast already, but the administrator is not the cause of the situation. They're the result of the situation. We said it prior, so could you get through that actually, Chris? Yeah. So so look, and I I could see a sense in some of the questions is
the the the terrible bad administrators in town and the terrible bad administrators taking I I totally get it. I I we cop it every day, right? And then I thought, well, how how do you how do you sort of not so much combat it? You kind of agree with it. But realistically, we didn't cause the mess. No. We are there as a result of the mess. So you know, I guess what I'm saying to to the credited body dealing with the administrators on Bathla is don't
Don't necessarily go and knife them and and kick them in the balls. Yeah. They're they they have come in to a hot mess and their job is to fix the hot mess. What do you say? Look, if people can't see that, I think there's something fucking wrong. Because it's like I would never want to walk into a mess like this. Yeah. I would never want to walk into any mess like that. It's chaos. It's chaos. no, and you guys have got to sift your way through everything and try and find the best result for the people who
deserve it. Yeah. But sometimes the result can't be achieved. Like this, there's a lot of pressure on these people. I can see right now the administrators like, I didn't get it when you first said before the pod. Now I get it, man. Yeah. Well, it's it's yeah, it's chaos. And I think that's probably why this industry resonates with me so much is because I can't sit down on my butt and do tax returns and audits and make sure the trust account balances, which I used to do in my junior junior life. And I was just like
This is like I just get me out of here. but when it comes to insolvency, because day to day is different, every job is different, even though you have two construction companies going down at same time, they're both two different scenarios, but it is absolute chaos. And what resonates with me is you go into the chaos and you're gonna bring the calm and and a and and a clearly defined strategy and you're gonna bring it all back and go, We've got the game plan, let's rock and roll.
Yeah, yeah. You know, and yes, it is chaotic, but we've got this. Yeah. Well, for everyone out there that didn't listen to the first one, I'm gonna put the link below of your first podcast too, because if you need any help out there, Chris describes how he helps and it's not just the big big bad wolf, kind of like what you spoke about just then. I think I think take a listen to that. But you know, I think it's yeah, I'm I'm the more I get to know you and what you do and and and way I've seen you act in this particular case and try and
Educate the media and industry about what's going on, mate. Got the greatest respect for you and and for our audience too for answering their questions. Because there's a I can see there's a bit of panic in some of this stuff here. There is. mate, so I'll move on to the next one. So another one Chris has never heard and he's just answering off the cast. I don't want my taxes bailing out a company that dug its own hole. But there are three thousand homes half built and families stuck at Jiprock stage.
Should the government put money into finishing the homes even if the company's cooked? Thanks, mate. I know that was, but cooked. I love that. Yeah. it I I absolutely agree. You know, using taxpayer funds to bail out commercial enterprise is not really what a free free economy really should be doing, right? Otherwise, occasionally it does. So
I was just thinking about this today, the concept of pork barreling. Now, pork barreling is government does come to the rescue of a particular business, particularly if there's a lot of people harmed by it, and and occasionally they will go and bail it out. And it magically happens very close to an election year. I don't know if that's yeah if that's things that make you go, hmm. so pork barreling is a hey hey member for
whatever region you have just triggered this money to bail out these entities because you know there's an election coming and pretty clear where you want the votes on. We shouldn't be doing that. But but you're right. Yeah, taxes shouldn't be used to do that. so it really comes down to now commercial viability, which is let's say Aaron raises 10 million bucks. where would you deploy that 10 million in capital and which homes would you complete?
So that you've got a chance of getting your 10 million back with a bit of interest and a bit of a bit of a profit in there. So that will be the commercial reality that's gonna be faced. Yeah. but yeah, you gotta you gotta think if your homes are I I oft I think if if your homes are like 80% complete, like Diprock must be very close to being enclosed and then getting the fixtures in, right? So you're really close, you're in that last 20%. You would think someone, yeah, someone would come in with a bit of capital.
a profit incentive to to come and finish that off. The complexity is the person that was building it, the and the landowner, are all got all these contractual conditions. And and the owner might not be the punter that bought the property. It could still be Bathla until it gets completed and sold. So you got a few legal hurdles to get through.
There's some and this is why your lawyers also have to come in as well. So it's not just the administrators coming in, it's their lawyers are coming in with them. Because this it because there's so many legal mine minefields here. a solution could be, and I think this might be what the administrators might be thinking, is on some of the packages that they they're not going to complete or their funding doesn't want to throw more money in. Well, let's try and carve that off and and get it to someone that can. Yeah, wow. But of course, with that.
comes a an assignment of all the rights and assignment of contracts and a s you know, it is a lot to it. wow. And then no, that makes perfect sense. And and would that mean that the Well they're not talking about subbies actually in here, sorry, Chris, but would that mean that the subbies that were working on that particular project would go with the new builder as well?
Or that might not be a question for you actually. It's probably a question for a builder who's gonna take over. But have you ever seen what typically happens there? Like I feel a sense of, you know, from these questions like there seems to be some subbies in there wondering what the hell's gonna go on with my work. Yeah. Pra practically, practically it would make sense that you keep all your subbies on. Yeah. Particularly when your subbies are holding what is it, the Form 15 compliance certificates all the way through, and you kind of you nearly got your plumbing certified.
But that one subby that happens to be owed money is holding it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It would make sense that you look after that guy. Well, do they do they sorry, Chris, to cut you off, mate, but do they get to what if that happens, do they get to when do they get notified who the builder is? Do they get notified of the builder that's taking over and get a chance to let that guy put his hand out in the ring for you going, You're the administrator, can I finish these buildings? Yeah, that's a good question. That's a good question. So there's there's no mandate.
Right. So there's no contractual obligation to keep your all your teams on unless they're specifically bound, right? But let's just say you are the plumber that they just called in for for three months worth of work, right? There's no obligation to do that. So it would be and I guess I wouldn't expect any major announcement. I wouldn't expect that someone's gonna tap you on the shoulder. Okay and
I think if it subbies in that case really should be keeping real close ear as to what's happening with those projects. And then as soon as there is any notice of whoever the new builder is coming in, get on the phone straight away. Yeah. Because it makes it so easy for Now, obviously, builders have their favorites. Yeah. You know, big favorite people that they want to work with and all that. So it wouldn't surprise me that a new builder comes in, sweeps in a whole heap of builds to complete.
And then brings in their own our squad. That wouldn't surprise me. But there's nothing that obligates the existing subbies to be moved and transferred over to the new guy. But practically it makes so much sense that it does happen. No, thanks for that, Chris, and a great piece of advice. So I sense the thing in these questions that there are some people out there affected. So I think to Chris's point, keep your ear close to the ground. Yeah. you know, and if you find out the new builder, freaking
Pick up the dominant, get on them, turn up at their doorstep, get your build back. Yeah, that's right. And you know, it's it's the it's I'm not saying this is what should happen, but it wouldn't surprise me if if some of the subbies coming into the to the second phase of completing the jobs just happen to nudge a few percentage points on their Yeah as well. Just to sort of claw back some of the loss. I mean
I think the famous building was the one in in Queensland. I think ProBuild was the one running it. Yeah, yeah. they then fell over about 80% mark. Yeah. Right. So they get to 80% of the build, fell over. And then rumor has it, and I can't confirm or deny that this is the case, but this is what the little bluebirds are telling me. Please don't sue me, Hutchies. but Hutchies basically said, Well, you obviously didn't like our quote at the beginning. We told you they may have been underquoting. So
To finish the last 20%, it's gonna cost you 40% of the entire build. So in other words, yeah. And but what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do with a landmark building like that? Yeah, got it. Unfinished. Someone has to go in. And reliability too. Correct, correct. Because think about this too. In that scenario, Hutchies have to come in and then they've got to verify and warrant all the work done by the previous builder. So there's a price to be paid for that. Yeah. You know, there's a premium that must be paid for that. Yeah, and then the builder will become
And then and then Hutchies. And then Hutchies are on the nuts on the line. Yeah. Defects, liabilities, you structural. Mate, this is such a good conversation, Chris. Like, I think maybe I'm gonna I'm like a dickhead here, I'm sorry, community, but like I think a lot of people are looking at this from one angle. There's a lot to this whole situation, and I think that's what Chris wanted to come on and explain today. You're doing very fucking well. Thank you.
You know, like and you've got to look at it at the administrator's point of view and what they have to get to to understand what they're up against. You know what I mean? And I think everyone's kinda going, you owe me this, what's this? But there's a thousand people owned and unfortunately there's a billion things to go through and the administrator itself even has to loan money to freaking make this thing happen. It's a wild situation. It's wild than what I think
everyone thinks unless you're in the game like Chris. Well I'm gonna use another example. I think can't remember what year it was. It might have been it was in the early noughties before twenty ten. Yeah. a property development construction arm retirement village arm so in other words they they got the full suite even land banking there's an entity called FinCorp yeah and it it it went under that that job actually came to my firm, right, as an example. So our firm from Queensland, New South Wales
Victoria were just had to jump all over the assets like you know, rats on a floating turd or rats on a floating wood or whatever, right? So we all had to jump on it. But this is what was happening in the background behind so we're we're stressed out to the eyeballs working on this thing, because you know, this is go, go, go, go, go. But behind the scenes, people are trying to poach that same job off the existing administrator, because creditors can replace an administrator, right? You got you got you got two small windows to do it, but you you can do it.
Firms that we were competing with were offering a couple of million bucks to the the let's say the directors to make sure that job went to their firm and not our firm. Like people were in the hunt because they saw the land banking and the and the value added the assets and all that. but I I just remember even in in-house fighting was starting to erupt between
the di the different partners within your own firm. I mean, that's a story for another day. But yeah. But I mean that's what can happen with a big collapse like this. Is there's a little bit of greed coming in from all sides. Yeah, yeah. And and there's a real fight, not only externally, yeah. Like you're trying to keep the wolves at bay externally, you're then trying to deal with the internal ones, you know. And then other people in the industry and
That's right. And and and in administration at the first meeting of creditors, that is that is the prime time for creditors to kick out an administrator. So that that's a real nervous meeting for the administrators to roll in and then going, they they potentially could get s clean swept out by the creditors and replaced on that day. You know, that is a potential outcome. Yeah, it's wild. It is not an easy gig being an administrator. No. Is it? No.
Well we'll get into the question. It looks like you go looking for problems. I think problems just find us, Aaron. That's true. Yeah, the problem too. All right, mate. Well on to the next view. here is one. This is a spicy one that I've not seen before. I'm owed money by Bathla and I'm pretty sure it's gone. I've got my own blokes to pay. What should I be doing this week to make sure my business isn't the next one going on?
We can't answer. Yeah. Well this this is the trap. This is the trap. So and that that's that whole concentration, which is your money that that's owed back to you is is stuck, right? And and you've got to take an attitude that it's gonna be stuck for a very long time. In other words, it's not coming back to pay your bills today. You're right. So even a few months? Yeah, no. Not at all. No chance. No chance, you know. because
Because what is it that the administrators are currently paying in terms of bills is everything they have incurred as a debt first because they are personally liable at law. Yeah. So it's gonna be if if the administrator engages a subcontractor, great, brilliant. The administrator is paying your bill, right? But if you have a bill outstanding before the administrator rolls in, that money you've just got to assume it's on ice potentially for years.
Yeah. that's a good difference too. So yeah. If you get a bill when the administrator's in, may get paid. If it's before that, pretty much just hold your horses and go find something else to do. Yeah, d that's not a nice way, I don't mean it in a try to be disrespectful to anyone out there.
That's right. Yeah. So so in other words, if the administrator engages the subby, so and it has to be done in writing and you and you need an autograph from the administrator, well then that's it. They've committed their their resources to you. Yeah. So everything from administration onwards, no no problem as long as you've got the administrator to sign off. Everything before that, it's it you just gotta draw a line in the sand that's now held in escrow for potentially years. You know? All right. Well, we had a few questions around that. So for the people that asked that.
Look for another builder or developer. Shore up your cash that you can get your ha hands on, chase down your other debtors, like within your own own business, assuming you've got other ways to do it. Yeah, what else could they do? Thank you. And then and then you kind of need to work out how you could mitigate any cash exiting your business while you sort of and and you what you're looking for is you you want to be getting your business into that hockey stick return, but it can ta you're probably gonna have to go through the trough of sorrow for a few months to to
To turn it around. Yeah, wow. But yeah, you wanna call in as much cash as you can, get as many resources in as you can, and you wanna try and mitigate the the f the flow out as much as you can. Yeah. but you but I I know tradies might not be that this great at doing a cash flow. Yeah. But literally, week by week by week by week by week, what monies can I expect in and what what are my commitments going out? And you just gotta you just gotta watch that like a hawk, you know? No
Again, Chris. Yeah, that's yeah, shame for that person there. Mate, I've got another few questions for you, Chris, and more that you haven't heard. Mate, I'm on a job for another big developer right now, and everyone's really nervous in New South Wales. what can I actually check before signing on with anyone? Well, are there any signals around what is this new decennial insurance going to flush out the next bathroom before it falls or just
Push it over faster. Yeah. I didn't know what that question means, sorry, Griffin. I'm gonna Australia has an interesting system about financial reporting. A proprietary limited company does not need to report their financials to anybody, unless obviously you're asked, usually when you're seeking a loan from a bank, and own and you report very high levels to the tax man every year in your tax returns, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But otherwise, a PTYLTD company does not have to disclose any of their financials. Okay. Now, as companies get deemed large companies and then reporting companies, Therefore, you must disclose your financials audited to ASIC. Wow, okay. Right.
So ASIC, if anyone that is disclosing and is a large entity, their financials are inside ASIC's database, which should be publicly available and you should be able to download that. Cool. Thank you. But that's if they are large.
so so if they're small proprietary limited companies, don't have to disclose. Now, where would you go? Where what kind of clues can you pick up? You go straight to the building licensing authorities. So remember, this is clues. This is not definitive. This is just you're trying to get your clues. I love it.
go the building licensing authority, have a look at the any blemishes on their license as a as a performer of construction work. So you know how people can complain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rectification notices come out. Did you comply with it? Yes or no? Queensland's relatively good like that. And you want to check their licensing class for what it is that they can do as a builder. then I would be doing credit reports on the entity that you're probably going to sign up for. So there are you can actually ask for credit reports on just about anybody.
Costs a little bit of money, maybe 20 to 30 bucks. So go to the credit bureaus and download their credit reports because what what credit bureaus are really good at doing now, they're connecting in all these databases of information into someone's credit file. And then they're they're applying their own algorithm to come up with what they call an insolvency risk score. So obviously the more the score is in the green, the more likely it is a good company.
But the more it starts to edge more towards the red, the more likely this could be a problem child. Yeah. Credit bureaus are going one step further now and they're almost coming up with a predictor based on all the information coming in of that entity potentially going into administration. Wow.
Mate, you aren't giving the best freaking clues. Like this person's gonna love you. Yeah. Okay, so you can do that. So go to the licenses, go get the credit files. so you're asking for credit files on on particular entities. obviously your your classic Google searches just for the news that might be out there on either the individual behind like you've got to look at the people behind the the people, so to speak. So you look find that cruise. Is that the credit reports?
correct, yeah. Or the sorry, the reports that you said you can pay twenty, thirty bucks for and get online. yeah, and and comp yeah, company searches as well. So so w we as a knee-jerk reaction to any new job will immediately do a company search together with a PPSR search. So it combines the company's details and the people behind the company, and then it it gives you what assets potentially are secured by a whole heap of financiers.
So gives you a good indication as to what you may be dealing with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that. And it and it usually follows the ones we get. I think creditor watch and info tracker are two major ones. It also comes in with a mapping, a relationship map. So it tells you, this director was also known with with this entity here and and these guys live at the same address. And isn't that curious that the same
Yeah, it does does a bit of relationship mapping and then it gives you your score. So there's that. There's a brilliant platform called Alaris, A-L-A-R-E-S. Yeah. I know A L I know Alaris stands for something. I keep forgetting. I I call it the goddess of internet or something like that. I love it. But what Alaris does is is it's scraping every court in Australia, including all the lower courts. So even your AATs and your tribunals.
It's pulling it all in and then it's giving you a nice neat report on how many legal actions that entity is subject to. wow. And are they either the defendant or are they the plaintiff? So, so what you can see from that is usually a bad operator will be a defendant in many claims for monies owed. Yeah, that's just that's a common pattern that we we can see. If they're half decent, you'll see.
They're on the attack with people. So in other words, hey, you owe us money. So bang, we're we're coming in on attack. but also just looking at the pattern of legal filings, even even in a lower tribunal court, it it gives you a pattern recognition as to who you might be dealing with. This is fascinating. This is so can the public do that? Can can anyone go to the Alaris and do that, or is that more? Yeah, I think I think that's a monthly subscription for sophisticated people like us, or it's ad hoc.
So in other words, just a once off once off one. So there there's heaps of information out there and we use all this for our investigations as well. Mate, I can't believe you gave a bit of that away. Like that is so cool. Like so many tradees and and builders will be able to, you know, benefit from what you just told them. It's so cool, Chris. Well well it goes back to and and this is a this is a business general rule of thumb, yeah, is you've got to know your customer.
Right. So, you know, Aaron, good bloke and all that sort stuff, presents exceptionally well. But who is he really? Yeah. And and you gotta and you gotta start doing some D D, yeah. Yeah, you told him. All right. don't check me out. No, but Chris, mate, this is this has been like one of the most fascinating podcasts. And beyond, you know, breaking down these questions about the Bathur Group, there are great business lessons in this one too, man. Like that is so cool where you told about how you can look at a density and all.
Stuff. I think it's critical for for most trade is the builders to have a look at. Yeah, yeah. And we even go one step further and do here's another good one is you do personal name search through the same way you do a company search, you do a personal name search so that what it does, it tells you what entities are associated with that person. So when you do a personal name search, it says, Hey, this person is associated with ABC proprietary limited, XYZ Proprietary Limited.
So it and and and all these business names are are connected as well. So you can go down lots of rabbit holes just sh you must be a very curious guy. yeah, you you need that. Yeah, I love it. So sometimes like a lot my team are well trained to to do all your preliminary stuff, but then occasionally one just crosses your path and you go, we'll take it from here. Yeah. And and you just wanna f you know, do the deep dive. Yeah. yeah. Well, yeah. As I said
I don't mean to keep saying it, but everyone out there, even beyond what we're doing right here, have a look at other Chris's look at his look up Chris Baskerville and have a look at the the breakdown across the major medias of what you're doing. You're doing it better than anyone else. So yeah, and that's what I was saying, the curiosity in it. It's not even your baby, even though people think it is, because you're doing such a good job on breaking it down. Yeah. And I I could see a need for the subbies and the trade suppliers because I thought
If if they are not warned about what's coming, like you know, hope is not a strategy, if they're not warned about what's coming and they they're what how we could help is start pivoting and changing now. Like you like don't wait. You just gotta take action. Yeah. You just gotta recognize you're in the shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. But now you've got to face up to it and you gotta deal with it. Like, you know, don't sit in denial because the longer you let danger accumulate and the the harder the impact. Yeah. You know, you just go and meet it head on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I'll tell you what, before the last question, I want to say this. And I hope I said it at the beginning of the pod, but Chris was the one that got in touch with us. And this was Chris's idea to reach out to you guys out there, or you would have received the emails I said. He was the one that said, why don't you ask your audience how I can help them? How I can answer some of the questions, mate. And that's who you are. Like that was cool. Although we're having a little bit of fun and all that sort of stuff, this is what you you're doing, man. So can't thank you enough. And now here is the last question.
This is spicy. The ex-building commissioner called Bathla a smok a slow-moving train wreck and said everyone knew that this was gonna happen. So if everyone knew, the regulators, the lenders, all of it, why did it take $3.4 billion to stop them? And what actually changes before the next one? That that's really, really interesting. that's a really, really interesting question.
And I don't know if it's from the inside, too. Well, I tell I'll tell you what. what was interesting coming out of the Corellian UK parliamentary inquiry is and and every every job's a snowflake. So I can't say this is what's applying to Bathla. But when they worked it back, and it took them six years to or five years to put all this together, they said, all right, Corellian used
Their strategy to grow was to buy their competition. So in other words, they'd go, great, Hutchies in the market, we'll go buy Hutchies. You know, ProBuild's in the market, we'll go buy ProBuild, you know. So in other words, Corellian just started buying their competition. Now, when they were buying their competition, they had to raise debt in order to buy the competition out. Then they got to such a size that there was no more real competition to buy.
So then they go and expand overseas into foreign jurisdictions that they had no idea about. So Qatar was one. And this is in the lead up to the Olympics in Qatar. wow. So they go in applying the same UK mindset, but now you're dealing with the Middle East. And they got completely annihilated in the Middle East. They then disastrously went and expanded into Canada as well. And again,
the the local ways of doing business, the customs, the laws, how things really happen, and they got annihilated. So so they were raising the debt level was rising so much faster than revenue. Revenue hardly changed. wow. Even though they're buying their competition, all that changed was the debt level just went skyrocketing. So I mean that's just an example of what was discovered, but it was discovered after the fact.
You know, and unfortunately, we're not gonna know really the true details of Bathla until the investigations have been run their course. but the the real clues will be given in the administrators report that'll come out just before they call what's known as the second meeting of creditors. And the second meeting of creditors decides the future of Bathla. Wow. So the second meeting of creditors will either result in one of three things.
The company's handed back to the directors. That is it's a legit. That is a legit option, right? I'm not saying it's the dominant option. Legit, creditors can say, actually, I think you guys did such a great job. Hand the company back. So that that's option number one. Option number two is someone has come to the party with a deed of company arrangement to try and reorganize the company's affairs, find ways to get pockets of
Pockets of money to people, or it's a there's a sale in there somewhere. So they're using the deed as a mechanism to sell certain parts of the assets, et cetera. Or the obvious one is liquidation. So but they're they're the three outcomes. Creditors have to decide the future. Creditors decide that. So so for me, and and I guess asking on behalf or thinking about the subbies here, it's this it's that detailed report to creditors, the statutory report to creditors that's
given about a week out from the meeting, that'll be critical. I'd love to see what that report says 'cause that's going to give you the clues. And will that be publicly available? it is technically a credit report to the creditor body, right? Technically. But the administrators have to put it on ASIC, which becomes a downloadable document. Which means by default it becomes a public document. Well we might have you back on when it comes out if you don't
Yeah, absolutely. You probably want to do it probably one or two days after that report comes out, before the meeting of the creditor body. Because because subies will need and trade suppliers will need to decipher the matrix code, which I'm gonna call a report. So so if we can decipher that report and bring it back to layman's language, I'm more than happy to but you've got a you've got a small window to be able to have that discussion before the votes then get cast.
What you do and your understanding of the whole situation and how business is run is phenomenal, Crusade. Like I'm so happy we we have you, you know, as part of a partner around. No, we're gonna do more and more with you. You'll see Chris around. Now I this isn't th they're all the questions, mate. You nailed them, like you are frickin' good, man. But wha what would you do what would you say to a developer or builder or someone out there that's kind of feeling the pinch now before, you know, kind of
Like I I see this last question here about like everybody knew. Like if you know out there and you said, you know, with the Corellian guys the debt was going up, you know, obviously the CFO would have seen that stuff. If you're a CFO out there, like have some balls and maybe start talking about internally what or maybe come and see you, what would you do like if it if it's out there? Like there's too many people at risk. Yeah. what would be your advice? if you were kind of feeling
If sorry. So so the people immediately impacted by battle. In other words, you are either a supplier or a trade a tradee, right? You you just you recognize that there is a crisis on and that you are in the crisis, right? That the the first thing you got to do, and and I use the airplane analogy, where where where pilots are learning how to fly and they get into trouble in the air, the very first thing they have to do is confess. So I have engine failure, tower, I have engine failure.
Houston, we have a problem, right? That is a confession. Why? Because that then switches the brain from denial and into problem solving. So you've got to confess. You gotta just just admit that your business is in crisis. Then you gotta then really shore up your cash. Like you really gotta you just gotta look at your cash inflow and versus your cash outflow. Do we have enough cash to survive this buffer? If not, where can we get it from? Does someone have to tip in some money from somewhere? In other words, could I buy
Could I tactically, I'm not saying recklessly, I'm saying tactically, maybe draw some equity out of my home to fill the gap. But your job is to work out what is the gap. Yeah. Like if you don't know what the hole that you're in, like is it a hundred grand hole? Is it a one million dollar hole? You need to work that out. Obviously get professional advice, absolutely. Like I was gonna ask that is that where you can help as well, your firm?
I would be I would be we can in but in this way it would be I would be sending you to good accountants and good lawyers that know how to work out what hole you're in and also understand what your legal position is. because yeah when the fight comes, if there's a fight coming, you needs you need those two people in your corner. You need a really good accountant and you need a really good lawyer. I say have them on speed dial. Like you know.
Because every time you're in a business situation, call the accountant, call the lawyer. You know. But yeah, absolutely get professional advice, shore up your cash, recognize you've got a a crisis immediately and start taking action. So do not lie awake at night, do not spend your days in bed on the couch, you know, watching Netflix hoping the storm passes. The storm is here.
So take action. No, no, no. And look, the money coming out of Bathla, forget it. It's not coming to you. That's the mindset you kind of have to have. It's not coming anytime soon. At least it's not going to pay your wages to the today, tomorrow, right? So you've got a problem, you're gonna have to deal with it. Obviously, in an extreme way, where there if if the business is so far gone and can't be rescued, then obviously that's when you know your friendly administrator stiff.
Step in and there's some cool tools there, like small business restructuring is a great one for subbies with less than a million dollars in debt. Brilliant tool. And of course, sometimes subbies have to call in voluntary administrators as well. Yeah. So a voluntary administration at Bathla triggers other voluntary administrations. That's not uncommon. Yeah, yeah. So well, mate, I am forever grateful. Our community is forever grateful. These are directly from the people that are listening right now. I'm gonna put out an email that kind of
Sums up this and and like for all you guys and girls out there, I am gonna put links in that email to the people that pass us these questions and I'll copy you on it if you don't mind. I'm absolutely put Chris on there. Just because I have an inkling from these questions that there's a few out of you affected and you're worried, it might be good to pick up the phone and have a chat with you. Yeah, absolutely. Pick up the c pick up the phone, call us, email us if you're if you are not confident on the phone. But there's plenty of
People like me out there too, that that are there to help. But yeah, just reach out, ask for help, you know. Yeah, cool. All right, Chris. Well, mate, that was a awesome, awesome breakdown of what's going on out there. It was the first one we've actually got questions from the audience, really. And because it was such a big one. But mate, thank you for adding clarity to the situation for the entire industry and nation because you're everywhere. Right. And thank you for turning up today.
a little old good builder, but mate, we love ya. good, thank you. Yes, you're you're an amazing bloke and the the way you you talk about it just I I've learnt so much but it makes total sense in my head. And now I am not the no offense to you, but I'm not kind of erring on the side of some of these questions around what the administrator's doing because the administrator's doing it.
Fucking lot. Yeah, they've got personal balls on the line. So don't know why you guys do what you do. Why? Yeah. Anyway. Calculated risks, Aaron. Yeah. All right, mate. Well, you're you're an absolute legend. Thank you so much, Chris.