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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
pj_wehry:
Hello, and welcome to chasing Leviathan, I'm your host, P. J. Weary, and I'm here today with Dr. Brent Waters, the Emerdist professor of Christian social ethics at Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary, and we are talking about his book This Mortal Flesh, Incarnation and bio ethics, Dr. Water's wonderful to have you here today.
brent_waters:
Thank you for having me
pj_wehry:
So tell me a little bit. why this book? Why did you write this book?
brent_waters:
Well at the time, there was a lot of how should we say giddy talk about the new innovations and in medicine, particularly embryonic stem sale research. This was to usher in a new golden age of medicine, and that basically we were going to solve all the problems of being embodied. Okay, we were, because we could find the cries, we could find the preventions. we could find the enhancements. And what I was basically trying to say, is it Probably not going to be that easy. It rarely
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
is, and that also, maybe we were created to be embodied. So after all, I mean, the incarnation is about that. In affirmation of embodiment, that the word became flesh, dwelt among us, lived died and was resurrected. Has God becoming a human being means God became an embodied being. Um.
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
Now, in retrospect, I think, if anything, I'd become more con. So it's important to emphasize embodiment, because I think medicine is changing, and mis of of a big change in medicine, where slowly but surely the body we've moved away from the body as an object of care to the body is a problem to be solved. And if you think the body is a problem be solved. I think that really skees both how medicine is practiced in what the relationship is between physician and patient, and I think it also for theologians. There's a temptation then that we Slipped into a kind of nosticism or manicheism, where we see salvation as being saved from our bodies and not being saved as embodied beings. So now, having said all that as I grow older and my body gets less and less co operative men there as certain kinds of things, I want to say that now I understand is tough being embodiment, but that is of our being embodied. But that's how we were created and that's how we you know, serve serve God and our neighborhood.
pj_wehry:
Do you see a connection between and I'm making a leap here, But it does seem our society struggles with the idea of aging. And do you see a connection between that and this struggle against embodiment?
brent_waters:
Yes, I think they're directly connected That
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
we want as much as possible to deny aging. So even even thought, in my lifetime, you've seen a big change on just the portrayal what it means to be retired when I was young.
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
He retired person with someone who sat in a rocking chair and dozed during
pj_wehry:
Uh,
brent_waters:
the day,
pj_wehry:
uh,
brent_waters:
And and now the retired person is someone who plays in less rounds of golf, or or some other sporting activity. You see the advertisements for the retirement community And basically what they remind me of being back and adorn. Um. So there's there's this notion that somehow we can be aging through through proper kind of care and management. And I think you know, as I grow older, I just really think that whoever said the new Sixties into the old forties will have much to atone for in the day of judgment, I just don't think it's true.
pj_wehry:
M. Yeah, instead of a second childhood, people are looking for a second college age Is that kind of
brent_waters:
I think in many respects they are, I mean, and I'm not sure I want to spend the rest of my time, you know, listening to the To the Stones and the Hood for the rest of my life.
pj_wehry:
Uh? uh? I mean this. This strikes home for me because we live very close to the villages and is definitely like when you talk about like, I never thought about that kind of model of it with the like you know, parting at college. like these party colleges, but like the villages are infamous, absolutely infamous for being party town central. Right? So
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
that's that's a really interesting. I'm gnahaeto. I'm gonna have to sit on that one for a little bit. That's really interesting.
brent_waters:
Okay,
pj_wehry:
So and you, you kind of mentioned this and maybe there is no difference, And if so, that's interesting to me as well. Do you? Do you see a difference between the term incarnation and between the terms incarnation and embodiment, And if so, what would that difference be? and if not
brent_waters:
M.
pj_wehry:
you know,
brent_waters:
well, I think what incarnation is is a theological way of understanding the importance of embodiment and also understanding the importance of the whole playing out of creation, redemption, and an eschatology within the Christian tradition. So it's it's a way of linking the two that, contrary to much certain kinds of temptations, the Christian tradition, It's always tried to affirm that the physicality of one's faith is important. The materiality of it. It's not something to be despised, so that I think sometimes we think you know only the spiritual count, but I don't think that's true, because if it's only the spiritual counts, and why we commanded to love our neighbor when our neighbors
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
are embodied, their material, and most of their needs require some kind of response to their physicality and the materiality. So it's I, I forget the name of theologian, but she, She once wrote a great line, which has said that that within the Christian tradition, Christians have always been tempted to despise the body, and they've always resisted at the last moment,
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
And I think that's important to remember that most of the heresies that we've dealt with in the Christian tradition somehow despises the body. If it eventually gets around to that so that you want to transcend it, you want to get rid of it. Something like, I think, the trans humanists now are somewhat in that category. They want to make us better Human. which means basically getting rid of the body.
pj_wehry:
Yeah, I'm reminded a lot of. as you're talking about this, the Incarnation is the re affirmation of what we learn in creation. Right, This idea that, like God, you know, looked at and said, It's very good, And he said that After making humans right, and of course there would be that, I think this is where the temptation comes in. Right, you see the fall, you see sin, and you're like. Well, now it's broken. Now it's bad and he's like. No, No, No, still good. like literally so good my son comes. m, Um, just processing here, but even as you're talking about this, I have a lot O conversations about stuff like this, and I constantly come back to the passage in James, that talks about, Um, if you say, be warmed and filled, but you don't actually feed and you don't actually warm the person. And I mean this is not just a Christian thing, right like there's lots of people who have like good intentions or say like a Od wishes. You know well, I wish them well and then they don't do anything material And it's yeah, uh, so I think there's There's a broader, just agreement on how people mess up on this and what doing it right. It's not that it's hard, it's just that it takes effort and care.
brent_waters:
Well it doesn't. It's also so ordinary and mundane.
pj_wehry:
Yes, boring.
brent_waters:
I mean, Yeah, it's boring. It's exactly right. and yet, maybe that's how we learned to love one another is by doing those daily boring routines. I mean, okay, you know, my daughter is an adult now, but I found most of being being apparent was just doing really dull, boring stuff. And it's this day in and day out. Um, and it's that's how humans are. That's how we relate to one another, and I think that that's important to keep To keep that notion that we sometimes get so fixated on the first command. we forget the second great Commandment, And the two are, I think intimately re linked linked And that's where the incarnation comes in. I think that's what ties them together.
pj_wehry:
M. Yeah, I mean that really strikes home for me. you know, I have a have a three year old who's body training right now
brent_waters:
Yah.
pj_wehry:
and it doesn't feel important to when he fails to wipe his butt, But it is very important and it is definitely not exciting.
brent_waters:
No, it's not not exciting at all.
pj_wehry:
So one of the chapters that really stuck out to me in your book is titled Let me make sure I say this correctly. What is Christian about Christian biolethics? And you know, I think that's a maybe a good segu here to talk about what the incarnation really teaches us.
brent_waters:
Yeah, I mean, when I wrote the book to, we were starting to go through a phase where Um. Christian bio ethics was increasing Ly, looking like Secutor bioethic,
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
and that I was getting fixated on procedures on questions of fairness, Accessibility. Now those are all important questions, but they're not distinctly Christian questions, because I think that sector Bio ethics wants to avoid normative claims about what is a good life, what is a good human Being, and therefore what is a good death, and other kinds of questions. And I think as Christians, we want to be norma. We want to say, we want to make certain kinds of claims about what it means to be a good human being, what it means to have a good life, and therefore a good death, and what it means to know faithfulness and things like, like these kinds of questions. So to be distinctly, I think Christian both means it's It's a theological discipline that Christian
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
biothiks is first and foremost to Christian, and secondly, a philosopher or a theologian, And that's what. Really What the book was? In many ways, kind of stumbling attempt to draw out various lines. And and one of the ways I wanted to start with was the incarnation, Because it means because that's like I said. I mean. that's that's just a startling claim, and I think
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
it either makes no sense to non believers or it's even insulting to some people that you would be so audacious as to claim that the dgod you worship actually became one of you,
pj_wehry:
Hm,
brent_waters:
And yet I think that's at the core of our faith. I mean, I mean, it's unfortunate that the A nation just gets linked with Advent and Christmas. It's just not about a baby. It's about the entire content of our faith
pj_wehry:
You mentioned a little bit like the this normative claim about the good, and eventually everyone has a normative claim about the good life, right, at least for themselves. Like everyone prescribes a good life for themselves. At least
brent_waters:
Right.
pj_wehry:
even if they don't. the part of their good life is not prescribing for others, but a different discussion. Um, what are some of the goods that you do? You have like different models of what the good life looks like that you can talk about.
brent_waters:
Well, that's an we
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
don't have three hours. Um,
pj_wehry:
About the. we can start with the Christian one, and maybe
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
maybe an example that you find very common past that.
brent_waters:
You know, it's the good life, I think for the Christian and it means you're talking about the faithful life as well,
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
And I'm almost. I mean, I'm finding ways to get me off the hook here, but you know I forget the Supreme Court judge who once said, You know, I can't define phonography, but I know it when I see it,
pj_wehry:
Yeah, yeah,
brent_waters:
and I think living a good and faithful life because I can't define it with precision, but I know it when I see it, you know there's
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
and I think it has something to do that they are at peace with themselves. They are at peace with God and they are at peace with their neighbors, And life hasn't become an artifact of their will. Life has become a gift that they have embraced, and maybe not the gift they were anticipating. Its, maybe not the gift that they were expecting, but like I think you said earlier, when we were talking, it fell into their lap and they learned to love it and to nurture it, and to care for it, and in ways sometimes that they did not expect, and in ways that prove very difficult, I mean no, Again,
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
there's there's that wonderful line from both the movie and the short story. A river runs through it, where the Presbyterian minister and his last sermon, he still troubled by the death of his older son, But he has that wonderful line were says we come to love people fully whom we never fully understand And I think that that's basically where
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
I think coming to terms with this coming to peace with a life is going to be far from perfect, And that's where embodiment has a lot to teach us, Because our bodies are never going to be perfect and we're going to have to deal with unexpected times throughout a life phase. I mean, early on I had to face the fact. finally, after many misadventures, I was not blessed with an athletic body or athletic skills, and you had to change at that point, And you know, as you go through life, then different kinds of issues come up. O begin to face surgeries, illnesses. things like that, And you could. I can see the opportunity. I mean, your attempted become bitter through this, but, but on the other hand, you begin Say, but this is what has fallen into me And how, how do i? How do I make my peace with that and how do I allow? and there again, I think peace is not so much something we achieve as received like a gift of grace unexpectedly,
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
and in moments that one cannot anticipate,
pj_wehry:
And I think there's uh, I think there's an interesting kind of path here in the conversation. I had a good friend of mine who became the first hospice chaplain in the upper Ponincila of Michigan, on to talk about spirituality and health, and one of the things he talked about is our society promises holistic health, and By that he means The promise of wholeness and health. that you will be whole. You will be complete and will be able to maintain that, And he said that is essentially problematic to promise that to people. And you know it's funny like there's all these things like you know. Like every one else, I'm like trying to eat well and all these other things, and I didn't think about like I cracked a tooth and it was removed, and like I'm never goin to get that tooth back. Like that tooth is gone. Right And it's like that That is something that I have to make peace with Right. That's a small thing, right like I mean. that's nothing like people dealing with the effects of cancer or kidney transplants or these sorts of things. but this is, and being grateful for the embodiment means in many ways being grateful for the weakness that companies. that, and when you talk about trans humanism, they're trying to get rid of that,
brent_waters:
Yeah, and I think You know, I think if the trans humanists have their way, then it's going to be an excellent exercise and learning unintended consequences, because you know what do you do when you've disposed of something that suddenly begin to realize is very important. Um,
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
and also, I think stepping back for a moment, you conversation friend. I mean, one of one of the things I discovered, though going through a recent Ne surgery and re have is that medicine, Because the rehab has been very difficult and there's
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
been some missteps, and that kind of thing might have discovered is that as medicine becomes more and more specialized, that means the people you encounter can do less and less for you, and there is no specialty emerging of creating to patient as person as a whole, whole person. and that gets lost. and now granted medicine is much more is much better than it was a century ago, but None the less, you are beginning to lose this capacity to think. I think with a patient as a as a person, in a sense, so that my surgeons break it surgeon. But it always sees my knee, And I really couldn't
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
even treat some related problems in the rehab because that's his. That's That was the focus of it. Um, and I think it's going to be a problem because also, I mean, and another experience I had was was also, you know, getting back to the ordinary in the Mondaine, How important that is? Is it? About five years ago I had Legioneers disease, so I ended up in the i c U for nine days, five month. Even later. I found out later
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
they were prepare My wife to be a widow, and then and
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
and then, but I ended up when you're incapacity like that. You lose a lot. I mean your your muscles atrophy and you lose about forty five pounds, So I'm in the rehab intense reap for three weeks learning basic things like how to feed myself how to dress myself And that's when I realized Okay, maybe the physicians healed me, but it was the nurses who were there a day end a day out, and it was the nurses who tended with the things that were really most important to me like How do I feed myself? How do I get to the restaurant? How do I begin to do the exercises that are going to restore my functions? Um. And it, what I discovered then was that my work as a theologian and a bioethesis have been too ecitary. That I wanted to start getting back to saying rather than talking about embodiment. Maybe I start thinking about embodied persons,
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
And I think maybe medicine is slipping into the same track. Trap is at its beginning to think about esoteric issues related to medicine, which is good. I mean, somebody has got to do that. But how do you get that back to really thinking about the need of embodied patients and not thinking about embodied patients as abstractions And again, I think that's
pj_wehry:
Uh,
brent_waters:
where the Christian
pj_wehry:
uh,
brent_waters:
faith have something to offer people, because I'm thinking of some. some of our key functions of our faith, like the uchorist Baptism are very physical. you know, visual events.
pj_wehry:
Absolutely, and I want to come back to that, Have that question about that written down. Um. but you talked about unintended consequences and I feel like there's a relation there to talking about the nurses being the one who were there to care for your body afterwards. Um, can you spell that out for us A little bit more about what you think? Those unintended consequences are. It feels like there's almost. would one of those be the loss of being able to love on your knee, Or if we were these brains and a that sort of thing,
brent_waters:
Yes, I mean, I think it, and I think it's a frightening prospect because I think what the transhumanists really want to create is a risk free world, Because as long as you're embodied, you're going to encounter a risk, but to create a risk free world is to create a loveless world because you
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
can't love without risk, And that means the consequent. The unintended consequences is what will it mean to live in a world where not only is love probably not possible, but unwanted. Um, and I think we're beginning, maybe perhaps to see kind of hints of that Now with, Oh, the notion that some of the kind of the woke things that are going on in the culture where
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
inability to forgive
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
And constant judgment. judgmentalism that goes with that, Um,
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
so you know, I guess what I'm trying to capture is emotions. I don't want to think, people that think that prefer people, and I'm advocating recklessness. I'm not, but I am advocating risk. Take a risk. Take a risk on to other people on things, because that's the only way I think you can love them as you have to take that risk. I mean, if there is Risk of parenthood, there's a risk in marriage, a risk of first date. You having
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
your heart broken. Those may seem trivial, but I think their important lessons to learn.
pj_wehry:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's I wouldn't say a trivial, but like less intense example is the first date right like I mean you like. it is risky to go on a first date and the rewards can be tremendous. right. I mean this idea of opening
brent_waters:
Hm.
pj_wehry:
yourself up and finding that right person. but you can go. and a person like could be a waste of time. It could. they. Could you know you could actually be attracted to them, and then they reject you and that would hurt.
brent_waters:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
Right. Um, And but to never go on first dates, or you know whatever equivalent you want to put in there. you know You won't be able to like is to close yourself off from a whole segment of important, like parts of life.
brent_waters:
Right now, I think I think that's absolutely right that the most important things in life have to do with entertaining risk and taking that on. That's why when back in the days when I was teaching one of the things first things, I tell my Ph. D students at the time that they didn't really know I was talking about, and I think that sometimes we're offended, cause I would tell them I will never take away from you your right to fail.
pj_wehry:
Uh, uh,
brent_waters:
And what I meant by that is that if this is important and you can fail at it, because I think I think C. S. Lewis has a wonderful line in there that life is important. You can wash it up pretty badly.
pj_wehry:
Is there you know if someone's struggling with the risk language with another side and maybe that connecting line to love is? Um, Is the word responsibility? Would that be fair? Is that am I tracking with you?
brent_waters:
Yeah, I think it's on the same track. I mean, I mean, I do like the word risk of
pj_wehry:
Yeah, I mean I, you're
brent_waters:
Wow.
pj_wehry:
responsible for something. It means that you can fail. That'd be the
brent_waters:
That's right,
pj_wehry:
positive side of it. Yes,
brent_waters:
right,
pj_wehry:
a
brent_waters:
and you will be held to account for it
pj_wehry:
Right. right, And that's and that is to mitigate some of like you know. Obviously you don't want to come across the saying you know, Be reckless, right. it's like Be responsible and you can't be responsible if there's nothing to lose, Right like, Like If I, if I just randomly spend my money in monopoly, Um, no one would really look at me and be like That's irresponsible right. It's very different from spending money and real life or anything like that.
brent_waters:
Right. I mean particular, if you're responsible for someone else you know to to spend that money recklessly. When you really need that to put food on the table. You know, shelter and things like that. Then yes, you know that's that's been taking an irresponsible acting in that risk of being a provider, risk of being a father husband, and so on.
pj_wehry:
Do you see any other unintended consequences? Um from this or is this the main one that you see
brent_waters:
It's the main
pj_wehry:
from
brent_waters:
one, but
pj_wehry:
this
brent_waters:
I think
pj_wehry:
trans
brent_waters:
some.
pj_wehry:
human?
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Go ahead, sorry,
brent_waters:
the other with the Trans humanist is that it will create an increasing intolerant society. Um, About almost every man, there is a book that was written, I think sixty seventy years ago, called The Perfectability of Man, and what the author is saying, And there is almost every search for perfection always ends up badly, and it always ends up with greater intolerance, Because you, you cannot
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
tolerate those who refuse to become perfect or who are on Able to become perfect. So
pj_wehry:
And
brent_waters:
it's
pj_wehry:
of
brent_waters:
better,
pj_wehry:
course that's your idea of perfection,
brent_waters:
that's right, and
pj_wehry:
right
brent_waters:
it's always an. It's always an imperfect idea of perfection, because
pj_wehry:
M?
brent_waters:
it may be physical perfection or spiritual infect perfection, moral perfection, and those are by nature always going to exclude some and not include everyone.
pj_wehry:
When you talk about the judgementalism you see in our culture, do you see and you see that growing? Um, To say that transhumanism is the one doing that, I think some people might find that hard to swallow. But I think, what do you when we think about the disembodiment of the Internet that's been remarked upon, Like, do you see that as like a major part of that judgementalism?
brent_waters:
Yeah, I mean, I think I think the internet. I mean, at best it's a mixed. It's a mixed bag. I mean, you know you can have multiple identities on the Internet. you. I mean, forget who said it, But the reason they don't like face time is because, reminds of being back in high school and trying to get back to the cool table. You know, because
pj_wehry:
Uh,
brent_waters:
the way
pj_wehry:
uh,
brent_waters:
way you present yourself and and and I think what the internet does is it allows you to to do. But we were a little bit like we were talking out earlier. Being irresponsible because you can, you can say anything, because you don't really have to face the person that you've made the comments about.
pj_wehry:
Right,
brent_waters:
Um. You can just say a lot of nonsense, and you ternetand get away with it on the social media. and Um, Basically it seems it seems to me it's what you're looking for Is that opportunity to really condemn and make someone look bad, rather than try to understand. And maybe come you know, seek some kind of reconciliation with that person. The Internet, just not a good media for that, and I think you know again, we were talking late earlier about it. Internet. Really, I think design for people who want thirty second sound bites
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
and not the. I mean, I realized there's conversation and I realized it's a generational thing going on here and that sort of thing, but during the pandemic, for example, I hated zoom meetings And everything was on zoom, but I realized it's not the same thing as being face to face. It's not an
pj_wehry:
So,
brent_waters:
adequate substitute.
pj_wehry:
Yeah, and I, even as you're talking, I used to be on Facebook. I left several
brent_waters:
Hm.
pj_wehry:
years ago at the height of one of the many political issues, and what I found myself doing is every night, so I would. I would scroll through for about five minutes. I would find something, and that I'd spend thirty minutes writing an angry rebuttal and I would be angry, and then I would delete it and I would not send it because I knew it wasn't a good place to say On Facebook, and I did this for like a week or two weeks, where I lost a half an hour every night just being angry and I was like I, I don't need this, But what allowed me to not send? It was not the consequences on Facebook. It was me thinking of the person behind
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
the like. It was that recognition that this is a person, not not not a profile. Because if I, just in terms of the screen, it was ere, it's Easy to just snap something off at somebody
brent_waters:
Yeah, I think that's right, and I think that's That's been the problem with the internet that people haven't had the discipline to say. Let me think on this for a while before before I send it. And it also the what the internet does is, it makes people behind the screen, invisible,
pj_wehry:
Right,
brent_waters:
In fact, effective
pj_wehry:
right,
brent_waters:
and it's very easy to attack something that's invisible, that hasn't been inflexible a person. and even further, I mean, I think you know, I think podcasts are good, You know for conveying kinds of information and that sort of thing and bringing people into audiences. I think you podcasts are probably better than watching the evening news with a thirty second sound bite, and I think, but my hope would be is that it doesn't become an excuse for not spending an evening talking to a friend about many things around to fire, and sharing a good single malt whiskey.
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
I mean, there's certain there's certain kinds of things that you know. is This is. I mean, this is a good. What we're doing today is a good supplement. but it's not a substitute for conversation. If you forget what I mean.
pj_wehry:
When you talk about a single malt whiskey around a fire,
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Um, I may not know what the good life is, but I know it when I see it. that's it.
brent_waters:
Right right.
pj_wehry:
Um, Yeah, That makes makes a lot of sense. And you kind of reference this earlier. And I did say I want to talk about this when you talk about the Christian prescription for the Good life. What model or do you have a metaphor? or in general, the How does the Christian prescription for the good life interact with the public square? What's the right way to handle that?
brent_waters:
That's a good question. Um, And when I'm in doubt, I tend to turn to San Augustine,
pj_wehry:
Okay? Hard to beat that
brent_waters:
And I think he does model a kind of interaction of what it meant to search for it, because I think he had a profound insight into human nature and that he realized that, unlike how we're sometimes tempted to believe, the problem of evil in our society is not, that is not wickedness. I knew you and I, at least I'll speak for me. I can't speak for you. I just don't encounter very many wicked people. What I encounter our morally clem People, silly people, stupid people. But
pj_wehry:
Morally
brent_waters:
and Augustin,
pj_wehry:
clumsy Sorry, that's a great phrase. Sorry. Go ahead,
brent_waters:
Um, and Augustine had a solution May be saying, Basically we, our problem is disordered desire that we desire good things badly, and that gets us into a lot of trouble. And I think what his encounter was, but the public, particularly as a bit, Trying to interact with Roman magistrates and an unruly priests, heretics, was to say, exampyouknow. it's a life of examination of trying to get your priorities in order of getting
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
your desires in order. And that's just a lifetime on going, kind of process, And I think the other thing you recognized which I think is important is The notion of the good life. The Christian life is a life of pilgrimage. Um, and in a very real sense we don't belong here, and therefore we belong anywhere where God might call, for however long or shorter period of time that may be. Um. So it gives us a way saying you know, wherever I am I must. I'm called there to love the place that I'm I'm at, because that's where God has called me to be For this time It's It's remarkable that Stephen Stills actually ends up being pretty good theologian when he says If you can't be the one you love, honey, load the one you're with now properly understood, stripping that from kind of certain certain kinds of connotations. That's actually very good advice because it says better than pining where you can't be. Learn to love where you are and be
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
attentive to the people and your immediate presence. And you're again. You're dealing with other imperfect beings. And and that's a part of that Is learning to be that faithful companion. If you will.
pj_wehry:
And there's an interesting twist in what you just said. You know, you talked about loving other people, but one of the people you need to love in that way is yourself right, like I played basketball, and you talk about like the athletic, like man. I would really love myself if I was, you know, seven two, and incredibly gifted, you know like six ten and I could, and I had a three n a half foot vertical man. I would love that P. J. but that's not. I need to love the P. J. that I that I am
brent_waters:
Yes,
pj_wehry:
right,
brent_waters:
right, right, because I mean otherwise, you and I think the two are related. If you can't love who you are, then you will loathe yourself And in loathing yourself. I think you also loath others Because you don't see the capacity to really relate with them. so I think you're right. I mean, you know, I just was really irritated to God for a long time that I couldn't throw a hundred mile power fast ball. I mean, I couldn't even throw a seventy mile power fast ball. So it was you know that ruined my chances for my calling to major league baseball. So that's a. And and once you realize well, okay, that's just not going to happen. How do I love myself for the imperfect being that I am, Or if you want to use terribly antiquated language, how do I love myself for the center that I am, And it's not to love the sin, but it is to love the fact that I am a sinner in need of grace.
pj_wehry:
And to accept that with gratitude, like you mentioned
brent_waters:
Yes,
pj_wehry:
earlier, and I think that like that stance of gratitude is something that Um, you know makes sense to everyone. Like the people who are truly grateful are just really wonderful to be around.
brent_waters:
They are. they are, and it is almost you begin to realize that to be childlike is not the same thing. to be childish.
pj_wehry:
M. Yeah,
brent_waters:
There is that childlike simplicity. that's you know, deep and profound.
pj_wehry:
So if I'm talking to my neighbor and they're not Christian, how should I present this Christian model of the good life? Is it as like? Would it be better to do it from like a natural theology standpoint? As kind of this moral intuition that we would expect them to share. Is it more like a metaphysical dialogue where we like we find out what their presuppositions are, and ours are trying to find where they match Are. There. Does that make sense like? I think there's slight differences in those,
brent_waters:
Yeah, I think you can. I mean, I think increasingly I turned to good fiction novels.
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
I mean last years that I was teaching in the classroom and creasing that was using novels, because I had to find new ways to trick my students into thinking theologically, and novels are a good way to do that because it kind of captures where they are in a sense, and you can expand
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
from that so you know if you run into a neighbor, That and you want to present the gospel, because you believe that you know the Gospel is the way, the truth in the life, and you know their life is deficient. Without that, My first recommendation would be to read The Lord of the Rings. You kind of prepares you. There's so many themes in there that are so central to Christian faith. For you know, loyalty, friendship, You know. The real hero of that story is Sam, not proto. Um,
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
you know is steadfast there day and a day out. and I think it just you know. It prepares them then to receive the Gospel and the traritions, because it's sort of you, you're doing the pre work of it. I mean, so I guess what I'm arguing for is fiction As a kind of evangelism. You know
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
again, C. S. Lewis, you know, has the insight that he thinks you know. Reading Good pagan philosophy is much better than reading postscription philosophy, because at least the pagans still believed in God
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
and there was a way
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
preparing the person for that.
pj_wehry:
Yeah, again, almost. I love reading science fiction always have since I was a kid,
brent_waters:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
and almost to flip what you're saying when you talk about evangelism, you know good fiction as evangelism. Um, as soon as I had read any of the Trans Humans arguments, not only did I like, I did not have to struggle with them at all, and I fully kind of felt like I understood what they were aiming for, because I mean when you talk about like things like I don't know how familiar with, like, um, ghost Shell, uh, uh, some of Philip K Dick's work.
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
You know what is it? Dry? Shoot? It's about dreaming, dreaming about an electric Do. Androids
brent_waters:
Oh yeah,
pj_wehry:
dream
brent_waters:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
of electric
brent_waters:
the one that
pj_wehry:
sheep.
brent_waters:
became
pj_wehry:
Yes,
brent_waters:
a blade runner
pj_wehry:
Blade Runner. Yes, and you think about these sorts of things, And what's interesting is the sorts of the unintended consequences too. like I was like. I felt like I was immediately aware some of the problems that would arise in terms of like, I don't know how familiar are with Android. Dream of Electric Sheet, Got the title. But the the mood organ right, Like this idea of like you can just immediately manipulate your emotions. And if we were this kind of mind in a box, you know. Obviously he's slightly different there. But if we wear a mind in a box, like, what would it mean that we could manipulate our emotions like they were circuits? right? um,
brent_waters:
Right, right,
pj_wehry:
um, and that's an unintended. You know that the very thorny ethical question all of a sudden, right and other people could hack our emotions like That's a very like, Very like You Start getting to a lot of very strange questions. Um, and so like
brent_waters:
M,
pj_wehry:
I think this, there is a real and important dialogue happening in the realm of fiction around. Like these sorts of questions,
brent_waters:
No, and I think that's right, and I think that you know for a while kind of immersed myself a little bit into ciberpunk because you know it was really a way of saying. Okay, how do I understand a world that seems very foreign to me
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
and again it's a generational thing, but I think cyberpuntreally. I began to realize. Okay, um, how you encounter this new world is world in constant flux and fluidity, And I think we're beginning to see the consequences of that kind of thought That's actually been there prior, wherein now even even gender and sexuality are fluid. And and there's so how how do you navigate a world of now Givens, And highly mobile what I would call a nomadic world, And I think that there again as Christians, pilgrims can actually engage nomads. The biggest difference is that pilgrims are not just wandering aimlessly, their headed somewhere
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
And there, but there's a way of encounter. By the way, a short, short digression. If you ever get a chance, go on the wire. Try to get into archives. They sent William Gibson over decades ago to write an article on Singapore, and he, entitled Disney Land With the death Penalty.
pj_wehry:
Uh, uh,
brent_waters:
It's just it's just William Gibson At's bet.
pj_wehry:
Yes, yeah, and I've read. I mean this is definitely. I mean this is part te rason. I was excited about this interview, but this is a lot. I've read a lot of side. very familiar with William Gibson, you know, Uh, yeah, and that sounds like something you would write. Yes,
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Oh man, um, So as we, kind o, you know, looking at our time, I wanted to ask you about maybe some of the particular issues you know, you say you talk about theologically reflecting and reproductive medicine you talked about writing about. Part of this is just how fast the technology changes is that I haven't heard about embryonicpel research in a while. But
brent_waters:
M,
pj_wehry:
what Are some of your conclusions that you drew from the incarnation about embryonic cell research?
brent_waters:
You know how increasingly we were turning, I mean, in the first place, we no longer call it called procreation. We called it reproduction, so that we were medicalizing the problem of child listeners. So it suddenly became something that had a technical technological fix. But that changed a lot of things. That it just basically said that becoming a parent wasn't so much a calling, and being in a position to receive the gift of a child to care for it meant that basically it was again an active wheel of which tech technology helped someone achieve. So That does a lot of things. I mean. Basically it meant that we no longer thought in terms of receiving a gift, and there's many ways receive a gift. Maybe one means of receiving that gift was through procreation between husband and wife, but maybe another way to receive that gift was through adoption or foster care. There's multiple means to be receptive to that gift, and a whole thing was changing. It was even kind of slipping a dog, Something like the process of adoption into simply one more reproductive option, And subtlely we were changing that adoption was created to meet the best interest of the child, not to solve the problem of childlesness.
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
And yet we subtly began to change that, And my research on it was was to discover you know, once a child's passed a certain age, the chances of them being adopted falls dramatically.
pj_wehry:
Right,
brent_waters:
So you know, but the best interests of it, She is to get him into a home, and he kind of subtly switches the moral notion of it. So what my concern was was increasingly. If if you begin to make it a technical process, you're also going to assert not only the problem of childlessness, but if you have the right to have a child and you have the right to have the child of your choosing, and therefore as the means becomes there, you will begin to engage in what's called quality control Bet Will initially be preventing certain unwanted characteristics, but perhaps later on adding wanted characteristics, so you know to be crass. Then the child simply becomes the outcome of their parents will Nd. The child is not a radical other, but
pj_wehry:
Become a product.
brent_waters:
your product exactly.
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
brent_waters:
and I think there's I think that's wrong at a whole level. A whole lot of differ Level is. Um, You know, it's hard enough to be a child, but when the when you turn them into something, but they're expected to fulfill all your hopes and desires. I don't see how anyone can carry that burden.
pj_wehry:
It seems like one of the main uh, intuition I can put that way that you keep sharing. Is there's this movement towards mastery,
brent_waters:
Yes,
pj_wehry:
right versus gratitude, And I would say part of that gratitude hat you, Kind of reference is giving right Like this idea that, like I want to create a certain type of life, an act of my will versus like I receive what I am given, and I give back right. And so whatever child I receive, I give back to that child. The child is a gift, and I give to the child, and very similarly like like I receive a certain body and I give back to that body, and I steward that body. Um, And you know, even as you're talking about that perfection earlier, like this idea that we are masters, I think that this this concern with mastery over ourselves. I'm not sure that I would say it automatically. I don't want to think on it more, but I could see how that would be like That would be dangerous. Right like this
brent_waters:
Well,
pj_wehry:
idea that like I'm in charge
brent_waters:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
of when really? like, I mean, like this is not necessary, Christian thing. I may look at the stoics like, like, Like, No, there's a lot you. just like what you're control of is not so much like
brent_waters:
Right, right, well, it's okay. There's a very interesting Canadian flows for the quite a bit. My name of George Grant died round nineteen eighty six, I think, but he. He was always trying to come to terms with Martin Hediger, which is no easy chore. but he really criticizes the entire technological Pro project precisely in terms of master, Because he says what it's really about is the mastery of nature and human nature. And that's what technology is about is. Ultimately you know I'm in control. now, he says, The danger of that is that actually, when you seek mastery, you usually end up being enslaved
pj_wehry:
M.
brent_waters:
Because it's a great process, and I later learned from some of his students. he was very fond of a Spanish proverb that he used to quote a nausium. But I think it's whenever I tried to think about technology more broadly, I tried to think of this proverb and he said, Take what you want, Said God, take it and pay for it. And all I think that simply is saying is nothing is going to be free. You are going to give up certain things for whatever kinds of technology you adopt, so that I think the same thing is true of re productive tech. Log. Yes, it may solve certain kinds of problems, but it's going to create others. It's not going to be free and it does alter the parent child relationship.
pj_wehry:
I can't tell you how happy it makes me that I was that before I asked that previous question, The other question I was considering was about hedgers, question concerning technology,
brent_waters:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
because it's about like this. This idea of what in framing means right, like his idea of like I'm going to like, I'm going to make things fit my box and my comprehension, instead of allowing it to you. talked about, especially with a reproductive stuff, this idea of the radical other, And if I could to determine everything about this person and I, And you know parents run into this all the time is like. I'm gonna send my kid to school and they're on to get these grades and I'm going to have them do these. You know, Hopefully parents don't do this, but I know parents who do. They're gonna. They're going to do these sports ad. They're gonna this kind of honor student. Be on this on our role, And the idea is that you're gonna, and then some kids, and in some ways they're almost the less fortunate ones conform to that, And then sometimes parents do that and they're like, Oh, they're not doing.
brent_waters:
Right,
pj_wehry:
They have their own idea Is what this is. crazy.
brent_waters:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you see it in subtle kinds of ways that that actually should be more disturbing than the re. Okay. We, We live in a neighborhood where has a lot of young families. Um, I rarely see the kids out playing. Ah, and my hunch is there either indoors certain kinds of activities or their ther carted off to other activities, But they strike me as its not having too many opportunities for this spontaneous play. It's It's a very plan managed kind of life, and I'm not necesarily criticising the parents, but I'm thinking you know part of of a rich human life is being playful
pj_wehry:
M,
brent_waters:
and playful. Playfulness is really spontaneous. The other thing about play is that you gotta have good rules or you can't play well, but that's the way you also learned how to play by playing by rules. But there's a lot of spontaneity involved in that and that's what I think. Another thing that I think is kind of leaving our society or our social life together is a sense of playfulness. I just, I just see it less and less. I mean One of the things I discovered after twenty one years of teaching at the seminary was towards the end of the career. I had to be really careful of my humor, Um, where early on you know, there was almost an appreciation of it, and that that quickly faded was just a different generation of students who did not see humour in quite the same way as I did.
pj_wehry:
As a dad who loves indulging in dad jokes, I really
brent_waters:
Okay,
pj_wehry:
felt the pain beside behind you saying they almost appreciate it. Not that they appreciate your humor. they almost appreciated it,
brent_waters:
Right, right,
pj_wehry:
but yes, the moral of the story, Though I understood, Kind of as we as we look here and we we wrap up. Um, What is a final take away? You would leave for the audience,
brent_waters:
Oh, What is the theme that we've been talking about throughout this interview? And you know Roger Screwton was very interesting philosopher, and you know they finally post postumanously published some of his last journal entries,
pj_wehry:
Hm,
brent_waters:
And I think the last one shortly before he died said something to the effect. In the end everything is gratitude, And I think you know, going back to this there's a take away. The good Christian life is a life of gratitude.
pj_wehry:
Hm,
brent_waters:
I don't think I could say it any better than that to be grateful for what you have received. Even if it's not always what you thought. Maybe you deserved. It's none the less. It was given to you and intrusted to your care. And so that would be my take away that I mean from from that book, and also, I mean, Probably if I were to write the book now it would be different book because I'm twenty. You know, I'm older now, but it would be. just try to infuse that book with a little more gratitude.
pj_wehry:
M. I can't think of a better or more winsome message to end today's interview with Dr. Waters, It's been a real pleasure, thank you.
brent_waters:
Well, thank you.