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A project exploring the big questions around how we live, who we are and what actually matters. Over the past four years, Iβve sat with more than 300 people β artists, parents, executives, wanderers, therapists, and strangers and invited them into a simple but profound inquiry, "What is a good life for you?"
The conversations explore presence, paradox, uncertainty, and the moments that shape a life - love and loss, trust and fear, clarity and not knowing. Itβs an invitations to slow down, to listen deeply, and to bring you into conversation with your own life. There are new episodes every Tuesday.
Mark McCartney (00:00)
Bogumil, thank you so much for joining me today on the What is a Good Life podcast. Having spoken with you on a few occasions now, I'm really intrigued to see where this goes today.
Bogumil Baranowski (00:01)
All
Well, I told you that I was really looking forward to it. You send me a question or two, so I have no idea where we will take this conversation, but I'm super excited. I want to say thank you to Matt Ziegler, who put us in touch at some point. And Matt is a wonderful human being, and I appreciate having people like you and Matt in my life.
Mark McCartney (00:34)
So as you are aware, Bogumil, we jump straight in with the question, is there a question you're exploring as you move through life?
Bogumil Baranowski (00:46)
I love that question and I have to be honest with you that there have been many questions. And I think it will continue to be the case, but I was thinking about an overarching question. I really peel all the layers. And I think the question for me is how can I help? Any situation, any interaction I go into, I'm wondering how can I help? And I'm not just thinking about the work with clients, but in general, you you show up somewhere.
And if you can go in with an attitude, what is it that I could do to leave somebody better than I found them? I think it's a wonderful place to be. And you would think, it's all altruistic and all that. And I think kindness is a wonderful way to go about life. But I think there is this idea of providing value to other people. And I was listening to a wonderful interview with the Whole Foods founder, John Mackey, with David Zenra and his Founders Podcast. And he was talking about...
capitalism and a lot of us have mixed feelings about how the system works. But he said, if you go in and you ask yourself, how do I add value? It's such a better place than going in expecting. What is it that I can get out of it? And we'll talk more about it, but in my mind, you know, the work that I do is all about building relationships rather than seeing things as a transaction. Even with the guests that I have on the show or the audience that writes to me, I'm trying to build a relationship or create.
setting an environment for a relationship to flourish and it's a place of you more giving Than trying to figure out what is it that I can get out of it? I'll pause here, but that's what came to mind when you asked the question
Mark McCartney (02:27)
And from how you sense that question presently, when did that start to formulate or become something that you could kind of ground or
of sense was playing it.
Bogumil Baranowski (02:45)
I think it's always been there, but I think I've been very fortunate to be able to create more space and opportunity and time and attention for it. And I think, you know, early on in my career, maybe in other people's career, you're trying to figure out the basics, you know, how do I pay the bills? How do I pay the rent? And I think other things take a lot more space instead of trying to figure out, listen, you know, their clients at the firm where I worked at the time to wonder for a minute, what is it that I can do to help them?
Mark McCartney (03:11)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (03:14)
And I think those questions we can start to ask when we're a bit more comfortable about our immediate circumstances. And it's a bigger fight that I'm sure we'll talk more about, but I feel like for a period of our life, or at least mine, it feels like everything is about the money. And then you realize that nothing is about the money, or it's really not about the money. it
Mark McCartney (03:17)
you
Bogumil Baranowski (03:38)
will turn into an essay, maybe a book at some point. I've been sharing this idea with a few people how
At this point of my career, a lot of the things that I do, it's really not about the money. know, showing up for the podcasts, answering complex emails from the listeners, even showing up for the client and doing things. You know, lot of the time that I spend with them, it's not really, you know, billed or invoiced. I just feel like I can help. So I'll be there. And obviously it's within a business structure. So I do get paid and I can pay the bills, but I think being in a place where you can help instead of trying to figure out.
How can I be paid for it? I grew up with two doctors in the house and my parents and this was a different era. I grew up in Cold War Poland so becoming a doctor didn't mean that you will get a good pay. Actually they were paid worse than a lot of other jobs you can think of because of the system, how it was set up. So they definitely went into that profession because they loved the idea of being able to help. And I grew up around this. And there were moments when we were driving on the road and there was an accident.
And my dad would just jump out of the car, pull over, leave me in the car, and walk to the accident to see if he can help before the ambulance comes over and arrives. And I thought in those moments that, you know, this, I think I looked at those moments later on as an adult and I tried to analyze and understand what was happening. But he wasn't going in thinking, you know, I'll be able to invoice for this. This is how much I'm going to make. No, he had the ability to help. He knew how he could help.
And sometimes in those minutes before the ambulance arrives, you could do a few things that could maybe speed up or maybe help somebody. So I saw this time after time again. And my grandma, who was an accountant most of her career, she took over a senior citizen home in Poland, a failing government owned, underfunded senior citizen home that I have still somewhere stored images of in my head. And she took it over, fixed it up.
and got government funding to build a whole new building next to it that housed a lot of people. And people wrote letters to her long after her retirement. But she went out and was doing something that was so much more fulfilling than accounting. She loved numbers, but I think she loved working with people and helping. So was seeing those experiences, stories, even without people telling me what to do, I was observing and absorbing a certain way of showing up in the world. And I ended up in the investment profession because of...
I find it very appealing as an intellectual puzzle. But I stayed in it because of the people I get to work with and I can help in such a subtle way sometimes that it doesn't show up on the balance sheet, it doesn't show up on any invoice. But I know and the client knows.
Mark McCartney (06:20)
Does a specific example come to mind in terms of the subtle ways in which you might help?
Bogumil Baranowski (06:28)
So many, investment profession, it may feel as such a technical pursuit. You have to figure out the numbers and the returns and the portfolio structure. But then there's a very emotional side to it. And as you can imagine, holding a family inheritance in a portfolio of stocks, there are times when things don't go the way you thought the market corrects. There are all the headlines.
COVID is a good example of a period where a lot of people felt that kind of anxiety, fear, pressure. And I was taking calls from clients in the middle of it all. And I was very busy buying things. I was very active on the investment side. But I tried to reserve as much time as possible to take calls from clients. And they appreciated that. And they told me they just wanted to hear my voice. And I have those moments that are stuck in my head. Another human just needed me.
be present. You know, it's not a reflection on the work that I do. It's not a reflection on the investments that I'm making. They just wanted somebody to hold their hand. I have a related thought to this, since you're asking, you know, I was thinking how a decade ago, there was this talk of, talk of robo advisors, algorithms taking over the work that I do, many of my friends do, that you put in an algorithm, your age, your retirement age, and it will spit out a portfolio. And here you go, you don't touch it, you just live with it.
And from what I can hear, that model has not been as successful as people thought. And actually quite a bit of assets gravitates towards a human being managing those assets. And I think at the end of the day, we need a human being to hold our hand. In the same way, when I go to a doctor and sometimes I hear something I don't want to hear, I want them to remember my name. I want them to hold my hand. And I want to feel like I've been seen.
Right? And I know that they're a good technician, they know what to do, but they also have a heartbeat and a heart and they see me and they know what I'm going through. I had some dental work, wisdom teeth removed a years ago and I was β in an office with a dentist and I never had any surgery done. So was a whole new experience to go under and be out for a bit. And that dentist knew exactly what I'm going through.
And, they're very busy and overbooked, but he sat down with me and he said, I'm going to be here with you for the whole thing and anything and everything. I'm here. And he said that and it really stayed with me because, you know, they gave me a bill I paid and everything, but that sentence, that moment, hand holding moment, it's not captured anywhere, but that's the biggest value that he provided to me. That's how he was able to help me in this moment. And he knew.
It takes a lot of empathy, takes a lot of presence and I think it's a wonderful gift.
Mark McCartney (09:27)
Man, you were saying so many things there, Bokemo, that just, they made me deeply, they resonated deeply and they just felt so significantly human. Really intrigued to hear more about how you were getting that greater sense that somebody just wanted somebody to talk to. They just wanted your presence when...
You know, for all the things you mentioned there, people could think financial relationships or calls might be one thing. What gave you such a strongly felt sense that somebody just wanted you to be there?
Bogumil Baranowski (10:14)
I think if you allow yourself as an investment advisor, as a professional in my field, you can focus on just the numbers and the technical side and show up only in that way. But there are moments when I had presentations with clients and I went in very well prepared and very competent and I could talk about all the holdings. And then I realized that the last five minutes when the conversation got more intimate, more personal,
something happened there and those five minutes became 10 and half an hour. And at some point with some clients, I would say that we talk about everything else 90 % of the time and 5-10 % about the portfolio. I have to know the other things for the portfolio to work, that's for sure. But I realized that I'm β needed in so many more ways. So it wasn't an overnight phenomenon. I think it's something that I grew into and I allowed myself to be more present for.
Mark McCartney (10:54)
You
Bogumil Baranowski (11:13)
see, appreciate. And unless you point it out, I don't think it's even noticed. You know, when the clients go home, they feel like, well, we talked about the portfolio, but if I asked them, did you notice? And I rarely do that, but how much time do you think we spent talking about the actual holdings and how much time we spoke about everything else? Your family, kids, schools, worries, dreams, fears. They give you a context. I do realize that money is a very intimate topic and it's almost just a gateway.
an excuse to have a much bigger conversation. I work with families that have had wealth over multiple generations or aspire to have their wealth last. And sometimes the topics and the conversations I have with them, I might be the only one at this point in time that they can have this kind of a conversation with. Open, no judgment, safe space. If they bring it up with their spouse, it's a very different conversation. There might be some tension, friction, expectation, assumption.
If they bring it up with their parents, it's a whole different dynamic. And so I might be the only one where they can just talk about it and just share it. And let's see where we're going. What seems to be the issue? How can we guide it, help it? So it's a fascinating place to be. And I think if you allow yourself to explore that part of the investment profession, it's a very human experience.
maybe that's something that will be hard to do as a part of a large institution with quotas and expectations and bonuses and incentives. That's why I decided to have my own practice where I have complete freedom how I spend my time. If a client needs me for two hours to talk about something that has nothing to do with the portfolio, I can find those two hours. And I have lunches with clients coming up in the next week or two and I book a lot of time around those.
Mark McCartney (13:00)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (13:07)
because I never know if this is going to be an hour lunch or this is a three hour lunch. And they might not even know. Sort of like this podcast, you start with a question and you don't know where it's going. I asked just a, you know, a basic question sometimes, how are you? And what follows is so much more than an obvious, know, I'm fine, is well, are okay. All that follows could be much bigger and it gives me a β better backdrop for what I'm trying to do.
and how the financial aspect, is just a portion of their experience, fits into it all. But I found a lot of fulfillment in creating those spaces. And I think that made me a better investor as much as it allowed me to see my clients for who they are, real humans with a heartbeat and all the fears that all of us have and all the aspirations that some of us carry. And they're just human beings that need somebody to be there for them.
Mark McCartney (14:11)
I love sometimes how you speak about money, but also the relationships around it as well. That sense that money is a very intimate topic. know what you're describing it in terms of maybe there's a freedom to speak with you that they may not have in the same scenarios with other people. But just, can you talk to me a little bit about that sense of money and intimacy?
Bogumil Baranowski (14:20)
Mm-hmm.
In my mind, there's no money that exists in a vacuum, in a void without any relationship with anything. There's no such money, even a single penny. I tell this anecdote that just dawned on me at some point. If you pick up a penny on the street, that penny has an impact on you because you feel like, listen, Mark, I feel lucky today. I found a penny, but you're going to say, but Bogumil that penny changes nothing. you know, financial standing.
Mark McCartney (15:02)
Yeah.
Bogumil Baranowski (15:10)
whatsoever, but I'm going to say, no, Mark, I feel really, really lucky. So I'm going to show up for this conversation or for this lunch, for this dinner, whatever it is. A little bit more upbeat, right? So if a penny can have such an impact on us. Imagine what a million dollar, a 10 million dollar, a hundred million dollar inheritance can do to us. It's a, it's a tidal wave. It's a, it creates a huge ripple effect through all the relationships in your life.
Mark McCartney (15:13)
. .
Bogumil Baranowski (15:40)
both between you and the one that is giving you
the money and you and everyone else that starts to see you in a different way. I'll share an anecdote that's maybe a little silly, but I think it will add some color to it. I was watching a TV show where the game was all about having a box with a million dollars and not showing to the other participants that you have a million dollars. And I thought it was such an incredible exercise in human psychology when it comes to our interaction with money. These were
average people with average jobs. And all that happened to them is that somebody brought a box full of dollar bills into their hotel room and they were showing up to dinner and all the other activities with the other participants and they couldn't show in any way that they have that box. Time after time and the box moved between rooms and between participants. You could tell immediately.
who the player is with a million dollars in a box. I think there's so many lessons here. One, the money has a huge impact, even kind of symbolic because it's just a game and you don't know if you're gonna keep that million. But also that I think we have a hard time lying to ourselves and lying to other people. I I know that there are exceptions and there are individuals that got really good about lying, but an average person has a hard time.
being dishonest with fellow humans. And I think there's this moment where we realize that money has an impact on us. We can't hide it and it will have some sort of a bearing on all the relationships in our life. It's such a layered topic and such a layered question. On one hand, I'd love to see that the giving part, and I had guests on the show who talked about receiving and giving, Jen Long was one of them, how we have a hard time both giving
and receiving. These are just hard things for us to do if you're really, really honest about it. And turning this into a process, something that's spread out over time, I think can help a lot of people. Instead of thinking of receiving and giving, let's just focus on the monetary aspect as a one-time event. For legal purposes, tax purposes, very often it's a one-time event. Somebody passes away and the inheritance comes. And it's such a dramatic and drastic
Mark McCartney (17:55)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (18:00)
transition of stewardship ownership, however you want to call it, and we can unpack it. I had an email from one of my listeners who knows what a bittersweet moment is coming his way with his parents that are a bit older and his inheritance coming. And I kind of wanted to expand his vision here. I told him, you know,
Mark McCartney (18:00)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (18:21)
maybe the financial gift will come as a one-time event, but your parents have been giving you something and you've been receiving from them.
much more than the monetary aspects for many years. Education, values, showing you how to live and all those experiences that they shared with you. So don't think that the monetary moment aspect is just a one time thing. You've been preparing to receive from your parents in so many different ways. I'm trying to build it more as a ongoing, larger experience and a one time shock to the system.
Anyways, the more you look at it, the more you see that if a client shows up and calls me and says, could you manage this million dollars? I have a million questions. Tell me about this million dollars. What does it mean to you? How did it come to your life? Was it a one time thing? Did it come over time? Was it a collection of sacrifices that you place on yourself so that you save this money over 20 years?
Or was it a one-time event and inheritance from an uncle that you met only once? Very different context, right? How do you feel about receiving it? Do feel that you deserve it? Are you happy about it? Do you think it has a positive impact? And I don't have the answer, but I have the questions and I'm curious to ask. a lot of the conversations give me a better idea of if I go in and we double this million from one to two, if that one million was a problem in some way in their life.
me doubling it over the next five, 10, 15 years, is going to double the problem, right? That's why I think it's worth asking those questions. And I see that the education, know, getting a finance degree and all the accreditation that people can get, they don't really talk much about this human experience. You know, that's the portfolio, these are the stocks, that's the returns. But asking those even a handful of questions upfront,
can set you up on a whole different journey with the client because it is a journey that the client joins you on. And you realize, how can we make it the most positive experience for both sides? How can we make sure that you feel good about the fact that you have this money, what it means? A lot of it is stories. A lot of β that is memories of the person that gave you the money. I work with clients who I knew the parents or the grandparents who are no longer with us. And sometimes I might be the only bridge.
that can bring up a story that I think that's what your dad would say, or I think that's what your grandpa would say, because I spent so much time with them before. But there are moments where the people that you want to ask a question are no longer in the room. And I don't think we pay much attention to this phenomenon. The inheritance arrives and everybody has a million questions, but the only person that can truly answer those questions
might not be in the room. That's something worth pondering.
Mark McCartney (21:27)
The way you speak about money, I think it brings it much into something like a living organism. Like it's something alive. It's an energy. And even how you describe that there, it just feels like there's so much movement and ripples around what can sometimes seem a little dead or transactional. But as you say, even with that example of that anecdote from that show, like
a considerable sum of money in someone's possession, it shifts things quite considerably. Just how do you, do you like, do you seek to bring people into somewhat of a healthy relationship with money or how, how would, thoughts would that even trigger?
Bogumil Baranowski (22:18)
So I'm not a psychologist. It's one of the things that I wish I studied more. I'm fascinated with the phenomenon. I think being present and aware allows me to see things. And obviously if it's a real hurdle, I did introduce some of the people I've worked with to specialists that have been real competence in the field. And if it's a real, real hurdle, then of course you probably have to talk to somebody over a long period and come to grips with the experience here. But I think the fact that I
I have some context. It's almost like going to a doctor and somebody shows the doctor, this is the knee, it hurts me. And the doctor is trying to fix the knee and then give you painkillers instead of asking, well, how did this come about? What were you doing last time you remember the knee didn't hurt? And you're going to say, well, I was playing sports. Well, what was going on? I fell or I was kicked. OK, well, that gives me a little bit more of an understanding how that came about. It also gives me some idea.
You know, what can we do in the future so that you avoid it? You know, maybe have some protection on that knee, maybe be more thoughtful. Who is the player that kicked you? Maybe don't be so close to that player. On and on and on, right? Like once you have a bit more context, instead of just being the technician, a knee in pain, medication, go home happy, right? Like the kind of an algorithm and formula. You ask a couple of questions and realize, I think the problem is not the knee itself. Right now it feels like it is, but the problem is that you're
You're playing sports. I imagine you will not stop. What can we do about avoiding that kind of an accident in the future? So sometimes you don't really have to be a specialist in the whole different field of sports and how the game works. But you know the context. And I think that's the same with money and investments and this phenomenon that we're talking about. Just asking a handful of questions. And sometimes people will tell you one thing.
That's why I said being dishonest with other people is very tricky because the words may lie, but we can't lie. You know, we can say something that we don't believe in and use the most elaborate words to describe it. But I think you and I will know that something is not true. And probably most of the listeners would know, right? I think you can agree that, and I don't want to get political here, but you turn on the TV sometimes and you feel like, I know this is not true.
Mark McCartney (24:42)
Ha
Bogumil Baranowski (24:43)
β And how do I know that? I'm not a specialist. I'm not a trained CIA truth teller. I'm not, but on a human level, doesn't feel right. You it's like you go to a store, especially in a town you're just visiting and you're asking, is the
Mark McCartney (24:43)
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bogumil Baranowski (25:01)
fish fresh? Have you ever tried to ask? And they'll tell you, of course it's fresh. But their entire body language tells you that this fish has been sitting here. β
For way too long it should be off the shelf, right? And somebody else walks up and asks the same question, the process is like, take the chicken. And you know, there are those moments where on a human level we understand and people might tell you, I'd really like to grow this wealth. I feel like this should be five million instead of one. I say, okay, I hear you, but tell me more about it. And you realize that they tell you one thing, but on some level in a couple of...
in of phrase that follow, you realize that they're actually want to get rid of that million. They don't want to have it. They don't feel that they deserve it. They don't feel that they earned it. And they want to take bigger risks to find a way with a little bit of the opposite of luck to part with it. And you feel like you're telling me one thing. I'm not so sure I'm hearing the whole story. And sometimes just mirroring it back and telling them.
Mark McCartney (25:45)
Hmm. you
Bogumil Baranowski (26:08)
I think that's what I'm hearing. Is that what you mean? Can really open a lot of different doors and open a whole different level of conversation, more deep and more intimate. There are a lot of, we say fear and greed, think the range is much bigger than that, but there are a lot of emotional responses to your own money. There are emotional responses to the money that was given to you.
Mark McCartney (26:17)
Okay.
Bogumil Baranowski (26:33)
their emotional responses to the money that you're receiving and giving. There's a lot to it. And asking a handful of questions puts me closer to where we are on the map. How do you really feel about this experience? And how can I help? And me jumping in and saying, you know, we're going to build a portfolio. We're going to double the money in 10 years. I think I'm skipping too many steps before asking a handful more questions. But.
The more time I spend around money, the more I realize how I want to learn so much more. And maybe my podcast, you know, talking billions and having almost 200 people on the show and asking them the same question, but from different angles and hearing new things, I think allows me to see so much more and have fewer blind spots, still many blind spots, but fewer blind spots in terms of how we interact with this phenomenon, because it is, it is a phenomenon that we can't ignore.
Mark McCartney (27:32)
Really intrigued to know what has surprised you most on your path in terms of how we as humans even more broadly relate to money. .
Bogumil Baranowski (27:47)
That's a good question.
I think I used to trust the words more than the actual nonverbal communication at the beginning the most. I think that that was my learning experience. And I'll expand on that because it's not just clients, but the portfolios to me represent an ownership in a collection of businesses. And those businesses have people running them that are telling me some...
but also sometimes they make things look better than they really are. And there are two ways to interact with it, just to give you a little bit of a case study here. So let's say I like this company and I'm investigating it and I really like it and I pull up a transcript from an earnings call and I can read the words that we talked about, right? And the words tell me that this was a good quarter. And what I do, and I don't know if people still do it, but I actually pull up the audio recording, which is available. Companies make it available and...
Mark McCartney (28:36)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (28:45)
and actually want to listen to the voice, how they said it. And we can say even the words, you know, thank you in 10 different ways, right? We can say thank you in a way where I feel like I really, you know, I'm really grateful and I want to thank you and I can say thank you as in, you know, kind of, you know, brush off. I don't really think you deserve to hear thank you, but I'm going to say it, right? So, but the transcript says thank you. And I think those moments where I can actually listen and hear people's voices, I can figure out more.
So to me, the surprise is that I would sit down with a client and I would write down what they told me. And I would feel that I wish I asked another question because I don't think that was everything. And I think I grew more comfortable and obviously, doing it for 20 some years, you feel like you can take a bit more risks asking some questions or even repeating something to them just to see if the words tell you the whole truth.
Mark McCartney (29:26)
Hmm
Bogumil Baranowski (29:45)
And if they don't, how can we get a bit closer? And sometimes it's a very sensitive topic, know, something about a father, grandfather, grandmother being unkind for many years and then leaving you something at some point, right? And you have a very deep memory of this is not an individual I'd like to receive something from, right? And then at some point, you know, they grow, they change, they...
embrace a different part of themselves and they do want to have, do want to give you something. But you're still, you know, thinking of them as somebody that didn't want you to have something or you felt like you were deprived. So unpacking it a little bit and realizing there's more to it than meets the eye. So I would call it as in taking a bit more risk with asking questions that might feel a bit uncomfortable. And, and I do it with a lot of understanding and empathy. And I say,
Mark McCartney (30:18)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (30:42)
I hope it's okay if I ask. So if they say, it's not something I'm ready to talk about. But it's funny that if you ask a question and they tell you that they don't want to talk about it, they'll tell you a bit more about it in the following monologue. Because they feel like, I think he's ready to hear it. I think he should know it so he can help me better. Because we go back to what we started with. How can I help? I can't help if I know nothing.
I can't help. And I can't help if I have the wrong idea of what we're trying to do here, right? So I think on some intuitive gut level, the client understands that at some point they have to be really honest with me and tell me what's going on and how do we feel about what we're interacting with here, even if it's some sort of a backdoor nuance metaphor that they sneak in later and I realize.
Mark McCartney (31:22)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (31:40)
I think that's what you're trying to tell me. And I took a note, a mental note. I know what you mean.
Mark McCartney (31:49)
I'm really intrigued, Boga Mill, the sense you have of the significance of presence and awareness in your role, but not even just your role, just in life in general. Was this something that was kind of close to you throughout life, or was there a concerted effort to cultivate this in some ways, or how would you describe that?
Bogumil Baranowski (32:18)
I think these were steps in a direction, but.
I remember being very busy and I remember, you going to school and grad school. I had little time to just wonder and little time to ponder. And that was getting to me because I remember my childhood, you know, spending in the woods on long walks with my dog. I would do some math problems and go for a walk and just ponder and ideas would pop in my head. I remember that there was a certain peak of busyness, especially around studies and grad school where I felt like
It's been a while since I had a chance to sit down with a book that has nothing to do with my studies and just be, or to be in a conversation and just forget how long this conversation is and just be. And then the early work
Mark McCartney (32:53)
Okay.
Bogumil Baranowski (33:07)
also felt very busy. And I think, you know, reframing my work and obviously over time you have more control over your own time that opened up more opportunities for me to be more present in conversations. And I realized how that
is paying off both on the investment side, but also on the client side and just on a human growth side. I joined Toastmasters in New York at some point and it's a nonprofit where people go and learn to do public speaking, which I think a lot of us would benefit from. I definitely was not a fan of standing on the stage and talking to people as much as I thought I have something to say. It was not something I was comfortable with. Through this experience, I met a lot of people from many walks of life.
And when you work in New York in investment profession, you realize that you spend 99 % of your time with people that are doing what you're doing, probably the same way you're doing it. And there's not much room for originality. If you look at the Grand β Central Terminal Station, and everybody's dressed the same way. Maybe now it has changed because of remote work and everything else, but there was a time where everybody was dressed the same way, wearing the same brands, going to the same office, not much.
Mark McCartney (34:10)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (34:20)
room for an original thought, which I think is a whole topic on its own. But in Toastmasters, there are people from, there were lawyers, there were artists, there were musicians, there was a chef, there were people from all kinds of fields, and we had so much time to actually talk and hear each other, both through the format that we had of presentations and talks, but actually on the sidelines, we would actually talk, and I...
It was opening my eyes. So it wasn't a one-time thing, but it was opening my eyes. People have stories and I'd love to hear those stories. And I am a person and I don't know how long I've been that kind of a person, but if I hop in a cab in a town I haven't been to, I start to talk to the driver and I have no agenda. I'm just curious. Like, what's it like to live here? And people tell you stories because they go through their day and nobody sees them.
You know, a bus driver, taxi driver, the barista, the coffee shop, we just don't see them. Right. And then if you pause for a second and you ask them how they are and you wait until they really tell you how they are, you can open up a door. So I think having those moments of experience where I opened the door and I heard something and I saw somebody open up a whole new way of perceiving the world. And the podcast for me, and I shared it with you how
In that one hour, even the people that I knew before they ended up on the podcast, I have this one special, very intimate hour with them that's very hard to replicate in the outside world. Because if we have lunch or dinner, the waiter comes and tells, brings the menu, brings the water, brings, tells you about the specials. Then they ask you if you, I don't know, you want appetizers and they come with all the questions. Your train of thought gets interrupted.
Mark McCartney (36:04)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (36:16)
all the time. And to have one hour where you and I, even this hour that we're having today, nobody's interrupting us. It's kind of a sacred space for 60 minutes, right? Isn't it incredible how few moments like this we can have with people that are even close in our life where my wife and I had lunch yesterday, we went to a restaurant we like, and I realize it's all in five to seven minutes increments.
Mark McCartney (36:30)
Hm.
Bogumil Baranowski (36:43)
So everything I have to say, β because the waiter comes up or somebody's moving a chair and somebody drops something, it's an interruption. And I have to start all over, you know, and, and I feel it. feel like it's almost like you're holding a ball. You try to carry it to the other side of the room and you drop it every five minutes and you can't carry it all the way to have the 60 minutes. think it's incredible experience. And I think the audience.
the audience can feel it, that we went places that would be really hard for us to go in those five to seven minute increments in the outside world. And that's that's a thought that's been with me a lot of the guests on the show. You know, I had a chance to meet them in person, I see them in person anyway. And I think we both look back at that one hour thinking, wow, that was really special. You know, like I see you, I talk to you, but that one hour. You know, we talk about things that we haven't talked about.
one-on-one in person like that. And I don't know, I catch myself appreciating those moments.
Mark McCartney (37:49)
This is something that I think is profoundly underappreciated, know, in the context of all these wellness ideas or mindfulness, you know, fads and whatever else, and also just significant practice that people have. I can't believe the opportunity that exists with other people if you were to pay attention and.
You know, even the themes of giving and receiving that you mentioned earlier, or how can I help? There's something so beautifully reciprocal in someone giving their attention to somebody else and someone sharing what they share in that moment in a thoughtful manner as well. So I fully agree with you. This podcast itself has just become for me, it is its own ritual in a way. And it's something that
that feeds me in a lot of ways. The significance of that for you when you think of the capacity to wonder and then just that image you gave us there of Grand Central Station of people dressed the same way, looking the same way. And then what Toastmasters did in that case in terms of exposing you to more novelty. What was...
Did that lead to further transitions or once that wonder or curiosity was surfacing again, how did you notice that take shape?
Bogumil Baranowski (39:20)
So it's many different things. It's the opportunity you have with other people to be truly present and aware. But I think it's also the presence with yourself that I grew to appreciate. And I have the memory of walking with my dog in the woods and being by myself. And it was before smartphones, before distractions. I've been reading more and exploring this idea that I hear about from different storytellers how
thinkers of the past would have this time to be by themselves. And Carl Jung and anybody you can think of, composers and writers and philosophers, they would have those long walks. Some of them had a real ritual, Einstein. You needed that time. And I'm reading a book, Joseph Giavelli's book, who is a neuroscientist, and it's about switching off the brain, the time that you switch off the brain.
And he explains how we live in a culture where we're supposed to be busy all the time. And the idle time is something that's frowned upon and it's a waste of time. But he talks about those studies that our brain, when it's busy with all the tasks we have to do, it kind of dims. Like imagine a light in a room, it kind of dims because it's busy processing things. And when you remove the tasks and you let the brain wander,
It lights up like a bright room. And that image really stayed with me because I know exactly what he's talking about. But until he explained it from a neuroscientific perspective, I couldn't I felt it, but I couldn't grasp it. And I remember working in New York and I would run into an obstacle and I couldn't find a solution. And I would do what I used to do when I studied and I would.
Mark McCartney (40:52)
. .
Bogumil Baranowski (41:13)
leave the office and go to the park, Central Park, which was a few blocks
away from the office. it was whatever the weather was. I would just go for a walk around the pond and look at the turtles, there turtles there in the summer especially. And I would come back and people would say, where did you go? What's this about? And I said, no, just needed to disconnect for a moment. needed.
It's almost like you're letting your brain breathe. You can't force more because the light gets dimmer and dimmer and the brain needs to breathe. So these are the moments of being alone for a second and letting your brain wonder. In that book, he actually explains that the thinking part, the analytical part has a chance to grow. The fear, anxiety part of our brain has a chance to shrink in those moments. And the part that collects memories and allows us to remember.
expands and grow. Now, overwhelming our brain with tasks and duties and, you know, getting poked by news and all the stimuli and even the door of his door slamming, opening, closing, people walking past you, all of that takes a toll. So your anxiety expands, your memories and memory capacity shrink, and your ability to actually hold thoughts and analyze things shrinks. So
It's such an intuitive thing, but we don't do it. We feel bad about it and we go for a walk. You know, it doesn't happen much anymore because I have nobody to judge my walking patterns anymore. But, but there's, there's a beauty in it. And I had guests on the show and I asked them one way or the other. And he said, somebody told me who was it? I'm forgetting who told me, I think it was John Sephardic who wrote the wealthy Gardner. He told me, I can go for a walk in the middle of the day.
Mark McCartney (42:48)
the .
Bogumil Baranowski (43:06)
and not feel guilty about it. And I was wondering, go for a walk in the middle of the day, but you added, and don't feel guilty about it, right? It's like that moment when you realize he's telling me something much more profound that somehow we grow up feeling guilty about being idle, about being just with our thoughts for a second, instead of just performing, performing and being productive.
Anyways, that's where my mind went when you talked about wondering, not just being present with a person, but being present with yourself. And if you have to say that, you know, don't feel guilty about it. Why would you give yourself a break?
Mark McCartney (43:44)
Yeah, I am coming to see that there's so many ways in this life that we, almost put us, it almost puts us at odds with what feels healthy for a human being or just what's like what's almost necessary for our flourishing. even noticed, you know, I've mentioned to you before, I think that I don't carry a phone around with me, but even my use of my laptop recently, I just...
I did delightful kind of 24 hours without any technology at the weekend there. And I really do feel my like, my brain is reorganizing itself, or I can feel that there's like some regeneration going on. I think just the ideas that you're talking about there and our sense of the need we have for space, it feels so fundamental to our thriving or our curiosity or our imagination for dealing with problems. And we just, we don't give it to ourselves.
You know, there was, there was something you mentioned earlier that I thought was really intriguing. Just the, the moment when you said that, you know, it went from being all about the money. And I'm not suggesting it was just one specific moment to then it being nothing about, nothing at all about the money, essentially. Just curious about that shift in your life and, and, and kind of a, if you wouldn't mind kind of elaborating on it.
Bogumil Baranowski (44:59)
Yes.
I like to start with the second half, but I think it's not fair. And somebody pointed out to me that when you start saying it's not about the money, you forget that for a period of time, for most of us, it might feel like it's all about the money, know, tuition or rent or phone bill. At that moment, really our attention goes to the fact that I'm $5 short and I can't pay the bill.
And nothing matters at that point, know, they'll cut off your phone and whatever it is. So I understand and I respect that. And as anybody else, I had moments where I was counting the euros or the dollars or whatever it was at the time. And at some point, if you're successful in your own terms, on your own journey, there is a moment, hopefully for most of us, where we don't have to think about the next bill. And I definitely operate in a much better way.
There's this argument that some of us operate better under a lot of pressure and tension. And we hear those stories of founders living out of a car and starting a business. I don't think it's an environment that I would flourish. So I'm not a judge of maybe that's an environment that other people flourish in. Although I truly doubt it. I think they truly started to flourish the moment they felt a little bit more comfortable and they could lean into it and take other risks. Anyways, at a certain point of my career, I started to see that
both in the businesses I invest in, I'm looking at founders that are growing those businesses way beyond any monetary incentive. They might be worth a billion dollars and they wake up at 5 a.m., they show up and run the firm and make it bigger and better, not for the second billion. If you think that's why they come, you got it all wrong. They just pursue certain excellence, certain qualities, certain...
There's something they find fascinating about what they offer and a business by itself. It's almost a miracle. It's a combination of people, talents, resources that produces a service or a good that people want. And I think they're just fascinated with that phenomenon and they show up the founders that I can think of. That's what they do. And at some point, you know, they choose other pursuits, but until then they're all in and it's not about the money for them. A family with substantial wealth. If you actually ask them deeper questions,
On the surface, might, you might think that it's all about the $10 million, $100 million, billion dollar family fortune, but it's so much more that they're trying to pass on, give, secure, leave, however you want to describe it, that the money is maybe the only visible part, quantifiable part, but you know that there's so much more that gets passed on from a generation to a generation. And maybe the other aspects of it allow that money to continue.
And maybe all of it has to coexist in a happy way for it to continue both on a human level, people getting along and the technical side, the advisors that join and all that. But it all has to happily coexist for it to be passed on. And then I'm happy that I can do the work that I do, not thinking day to day about the bills that I have to pay.
Mark McCartney (48:01)
.
Bogumil Baranowski (48:27)
or the invoices that I have to produce or the quotas that I have to meet, that I can really go places with clients and help them.
Not knowing how I will be paid specifically for that one, two or a hundred things that I'm doing for them. And I love that nobody is watching me and telling me you're spending too much time with this client and too little with that one. It's if I'm needed, I'm there. If they're okay on their own, they know how to reach me. But it's that feeling that I can not think about the money, which is a funny thing to say where you would say, well, isn't everything you do
all about money, but it's not. It's just not. And it's not for them. It's not for the businesses we invest in and the founders that run them. And it's not for me when I just want to show up and be present. Because if you start to quantify, you know, how much time, how many minutes you spend with each client and what's the profit per minute or per hour or per client per relationship, you're ruining something that's much more.
delicate and subtle that's happening. They trust you with so much more than their money. And to respect that and to know that this is so much more than a number.
Mark McCartney (49:43)
You know, you said something earlier, just you mentioned the idea of truth and people's relationship to it. And just curious from your own perspective, like was was that shaped in any way from through your own experiences with ideas of truth or how would you describe that relationship?
Bogumil Baranowski (50:09)
I think I was a very β gullible, sweet, happy-go-lucky kid. And that's how I remember myself. And I honestly thought that there is no evil in the world. And I'd like to hold onto a version of that belief still. And I remember I was the first grandchild in that part of the family. And I was getting a lot of love and attention. I would come back with stories from the kindergarten.
But I do remember those early experiences when an adult for no reason would be unkind or unpleasant to me. And a teacher that I thought I admired would brush off or say something unpleasant. And as a five-year-old, you don't have the power to understand that it has nothing to do with you. It probably has something to do with a spouse that told them something this morning, or a bus they missed this morning, or they couldn't find a parking spot. It has nothing to do with you. But you're a five-year-old that goes in with this gullible.
kind, open heart. And I remember those moments and I have even images of a certain teacher saying something to me. So was responding to it thinking, you know, I'm this very open and trusting individual and I have to figure out a way to navigate in a much more complicated world where I can get smacked. And I think I was just opening my eyes and realizing that you have to
you know, pay attention and some people will be very kind and honest and, and, know, trustworthy. And some people will be the opposite and it's a range. I think finding a way to navigate it was very hard for me. And I'll share a story that I haven't shared with many people, but I think maybe we'll give you an idea of what a kid I remember myself being. I remember my grandma taking me to a church in Poland. That's where I grew up. And
We walked in and to this day, I remember that church. It was a medieval kind of dark, beautiful, gothic church. And we walked in and Jesus Christ was on the cross, human size, beautifully painted, very realistic, and with the blood and the nails and the pain on his face. And I remember being so hit by this visual. And I told my grandma, like, who would put a human being on the
I didn't know the words that it was across, but up there, and put them for so much pain. And as a kid, I was processing real quick that it's not a real human being, but I think it didn't click to me in the moment it's not a real human being. You're taking things in a very literal way at that age. But I remember, and to this point when I remember that moment, I was just so shocked that somebody can be so cruel to another human being.
Mark McCartney (52:55)
you you
Bogumil Baranowski (53:04)
It just, I couldn't process it. And you know, she talked me through it, that it's a sculpture. But wait, it's a sculpture of something that actually happened, right? So that's as real as anything. Why did that happen? And why do we put it up on a wall and look
at it? I don't know, it's just like so much for a kid to process. So that's the kind of kid I remember myself being as I went in trying to see the world in a very literal, honest, open way. And there are moments where
the world overwhelmed me and it still does. And their moment still is an adult, I'm 45, where I'm still overwhelmed by the real world out there. And there are some things that I still can't process how they're happening. And I think that's that moment of trust and honesty. And when a client sits down with you and you are in charge of their family inheritance, which to them means the livelihood, even on a financial level alone,
of their own, of their kids, of their grandkids, schools they can go to, the life they can have, the careers they could choose because of the comfort and peace that that capital provides. You're taking on a huge responsibility and you have such an open channel to their life. And it is a two-way street. That's why I take a lot of time onboarding new clients because I know it's a two-way street. And it takes a lot of trust that you build over time and they...
They just know it. They feel that you will do the right thing, even if they don't know what the right thing is. And even if nobody's watching, it's such an intimate, profound experience. If you see this as a duty, a service to another human being, not just an investment advice that fits in a bracket and it's labeled and it's built for, but it's a human experience. You just took on a huge responsibility for somebody's livelihood and maybe
for many, many souls that are behind it and could benefit from it. Anyways, maybe I shared too much, but that's what your question prompted.
Mark McCartney (55:13)
No, this is, β this is beautiful. And I, I love how it even kind of ties back to the, the original question of almost like, how do I help or, or how do I add value and the responsibility that comes with that, but also the ways in which that you describe throughout this conversation around, you know,
the significance of presence and handholding and being with another human being. And even the the ideas of presence and awareness of ways of of understanding truth or or looking beyond just the words or the literal interpretation of what someone may have said. I think there's something really beautiful in that. I'm really curious to ask you the question of what is a good life for you?
Bogumil Baranowski (56:02)
I used to think it's a destination. I think we are all made to believe that it's a destination. a postcard, right, that we get to live in and finally we're there. I actually wrote a piece where I focused on the investment side, how we describe the pursuit on the money side, finance side as climbing a mountain. the metaphor really struck me as just incorrect for what we're trying to do. If you take Mount Everest and, Hillary
climbing the mountain with tensing back in the day. At first it's easy, then it's harder. And once you get to the top, you can't stay at the top because you can't breathe. And it's too cold and physically too hard. So that's why I thought, why do we use all the language to explain that we're climbing to a destination where the actual mountain climbing is not a destination where you want to linger? Maybe we're using the wrong metaphor. And it struck me like.
Every time I talk to people, they talk about the peak and the goal and the words are about summit and about reaching a certain point. And that's not how it really is, if you're honest about it. And I thought people have the visual of rolling a snowball down the hill and compounding good things in life. Money is visible visual, so you can see the number.
But there are many things that you compound in life. Relationships, you've talked to almost 200 people on your show, and I know off the record, probably you have a few hundred more. You're compounding something. You're compounding goodwill. You're compounding knowledge. You compound your understanding. You're growing as a human being. You probably can't put a number on it, which I think is better. But you're rolling a snowball. And maybe at first it was hard, like for me to invite the handful of guests at the beginning of the podcast to explain the format, what I'm trying to do. It felt like it was
Actually, I tried to do it 10 years earlier and, and I, it, it did not happen because it took so long to explain what I'm trying to do. And people told me, how about you answer the questions because you know my book better. And I said, it's not about that. I want people to hear in your own voice, what do you want it to tell them with the book? And that clicked with people three years ago when I started the podcast, it wasn't clicking. was, people were not ready for what I was trying to do. Anyways, the first five maybe were hard.
But now I feel like there's so much more ease and flow, like a snowball rolling with the additional guests coming on. They know what I'm about. They know my style. They know that I want to go deeper. I see money as just an excuse to a much more interesting conversation. And the snowball effect is beautiful. So I see this more as a journey now in life, in all the aspects, both my business, the podcast, the interactions I get to have, the things I get to learn on all fronts. So.
good life for me. It's just a fun journey that I can be on. And I feel very grateful that I get to do it. You I get to show up every day and walk away with something that makes me more aware, makes me richer in some way. And it's a joy of pursuit. I'll mention a whole other thought that maybe we'll explore in the future, but
You can see the world as finite games and infinite games. And you and I might have talked about it or you might have seen me write about it. But James Carr way back wrote a book and introduced us to this idea that we grow up thinking that the world is all about finite games. You chess is a finite game. Soccer is a finite game. There are time, there are various strict rules. Sometimes there's a time limit. The score is kept. There's a winner or a loser most of the time. And we go into the
the adult life and we think that everything is a finite game. And we talk about the stock market as a zero sum game. If I get rich, then you get poor. It doesn't work that way. It's a growing pie and the economies grow. People provide more service, more goods. It's a better and hopefully more peaceful place to be in, to live in. But anyways, he talks about infinite games. And to me, the part that really spoke to me, and I think it's a good example, is when you think of a friendship,
I certainly hope you don't look at it as a finite game where I win, you're loose. You want to play as long as possible. That's the kind of game I want to be a part of. So a friendship, you're thinking, how can I make sure that this friendship flourishes? Right? We're going back to giving, you how much more can I give? Time, attention, whatever you need for this friendship to continue. And I hope people think of marriage the same way. You know, I think we might've gotten lost a little bit about
Mark McCartney (1:00:19)
You .
Bogumil Baranowski (1:00:42)
you know, relating with other humans, but you want the marriage to continue. So what is it that you can do today so that this marriage continues? And a business relationship and a client relationship, it's not a transaction. How much can I get out of it now? No, it's more about how much can I give to make sure that I can continue to give and be a part of my client's journey for decades to come. The minute you start to see the world as an infinite game, not a destination, but an infinite game, a journey.
so much more opens up to you and I think it's a much more fulfilling way to interact with other humans and everything around us instead of thinking what am I going to get out of it and instead of thinking what can I give, how can I help.
Mark McCartney (1:01:26)
Bhojpurnima, I think that's really beautiful and there's something I think of what's even more kind of satisfying in listening to you say it is just a kind of the spaciousness or the presence that I sense it has come from your own lived experience and so many of the
the aspects of your life that you're pointing to and really give that sense that that's also what you're you're bringing to your own life. So, Boga, I've really enjoyed this. I haven't talked about money so much in many of these conversations, but the way you describe it, it just makes it makes me so much more curious about our relationships with it and, of course, the significance of it in the context of a good life. So thank you so much for joining us on the What is a Good Life podcast today.
Bogumil Baranowski (1:02:14)
Thank you so much, wonderful questions. I really appreciate it.