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The NYC Academic Solutions Podcast focuses on helping parents navigate New York City's complex education landscape by providing them with valuable information and real, actionable strategies for their children's success.
Hosted by Alexander Friedman, owner of Brooklyn Math Tutors, each episode zeroes in on a specific topic relevant to NYC education and features experts who provide practical advice and insights, empowering students to excel both academically and beyond.
Interested in being a guest or have a question for the host? Get in touch via email. We're here to help.
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;27;23
Alex
Hello and welcome to the NYC Academic Solutions Podcast, where we empower parents with actionable insights, practical advice and expert knowledge to help their children excel in education and beyond. I'm your host, Alexander Friedman, the owner of Brooklyn Math Tutors. In this podcast, we're committed to delivering valuable, noncommercial content by engaging conversations with various experts who will share their knowledge and experience to help NYC parents navigate the unique and complex world of education in the city.
00;00;27;26 - 00;00;51;02
Alex
Today, we'll be exploring how art and movement can boost your child's math skills with our guest, Mackinna Hart. Mackinna is an experienced elementary school teacher at the Dalton School, holding a master's in special education and general education for grades one through six. She's passionate about creative learning and incorporates her background and music business into her teaching. In this episode, Mackinna will share specific strategies and activities that can engage your children in fun, interactive math learning experiences.
00;00;51;08 - 00;00;54;28
Alex
So without further ado, let's get started. Welcome to the podcast, Mackinna.
00;00;55;03 - 00;00;56;18
Mackinna
Hi, thanks for having me.
00;00;56;21 - 00;01;02;13
Alex
Before we get to the art and learning, can you first tell us a bit about your history and your background as an educator?
00;01;02;16 - 00;01;25;03
Mackinna
Yeah, so I actually am one of those teachers who were career switchers, so I didn't start off thinking I was going to be a teacher. Actually, I told myself I would never be a teacher because my whole family are teachers. So I went to school for a music business, worked in the music industry for a while, but found that I was missing working with kids when I was in the city.
00;01;25;05 - 00;01;40;22
Mackinna
And so I applied to work in the office of a building of a school building, and they said, We actually need teachers. And I said, I've never taught. My family's all teachers, but I'm not going to be a teacher. And they're like, “Well, we'll train you.” So, I went in thinking I was going to be an office aide.
00;01;40;22 - 00;01;51;04
Mackinna
It came out being a science teacher for kindergarten through fourth and ended up loving it so much that I went on to pursue my masters in special education.
00;01;51;08 - 00;01;53;04
Alex
So you couldn't get away from it.
00;01;53;07 - 00;01;58;25
Mackinna
I couldn't escape. It was apparently passed down and I'm stuck with being a teacher now.
00;01;59;00 - 00;02;04;00
Alex
That's it. That's it. How did you become interested in integrating art and movement into math?
00;02;04;02 - 00;02;24;22
Mackinna
So this is so I actually and I tell all my students this too, that I work with at school and tutor. I actually grew up hating math. My parents are aerospace engineers and so they just really understand numbers just very quickly. And so they assumed that that would be the way I would learn. And so it was very frustrating.
00;02;24;22 - 00;03;01;17
Mackinna
As I was growing up, my relationship with math was not great because I was only taught in one way. And I'm someone who's always been extremely creative. I always loved music, performance, all these different ways to express my understanding and competency in areas. And so when I was thinking about how to teach my students who have diverse learning needs and diverse ways of accessing information, I was thinking about myself as a kid - what would I have wanted to be able to understand math in the way that I do now as an adult in understanding there's so many different ways to get to that
00;03;01;17 - 00;03;15;09
Mackinna
one answer you have for a problem. But you can access different parts of your brain, different parts of your body as you're solving different types of the same problem, but in a different way for each person. I kind of rambled there, but hopefully that makes sense.
00;03;15;10 - 00;03;28;17
Alex
Absolutely. Yeah. So give me some examples of what that might look like. You know, in contrast, a normal classroom where you just have a teacher, there's like chalk and, you know, there's numbers at algorithms. What does art and movement look like when you combine it with math?
00;03;28;21 - 00;03;54;16
Mackinna
Yeah. So this could look like creating like - so say you're working on area and perimeter, right? Maybe you have your student get up and actually walk around the perimeter of the room and measure draw, map the room that they're in, right? So then they're not only saying, “Okay, well, I'm not just doing a problem to do a problem, I'm actually calculating some area that I exist in.” Which is great because they're interacting with the space around them.
00;03;54;16 - 00;04;15;00
Mackinna
They're physically moving because a lot of kids and I work with elementary students, so they don't like to sit around for very long. I don't want to keep them at the rug or in a seat for too long of a time because that doesn't help them focus, right? They need different breaks of time to refocus and be able to be really, really honed in on each set project that they're each part of the problem they're working on.
00;04;15;00 - 00;04;36;15
Mackinna
So having the student walk around and then measure correctly. So then this works on another, pulls in another skill and then draw their area and perimeter that they've calculated onto a sheet as well. Then they can add color and that if we want to take it further, they could measure out their chair their desk, anything else they have in there.
00;04;36;15 - 00;04;44;20
Mackinna
And so then they're getting really excited because now they're creating their room, basically their space, but they're also doing math to be able to complete that.
00;04;44;20 - 00;04;49;02
Alex
So it sounds like you're connecting these very abstract concepts into their physical reality.
00;04;49;03 - 00;05;15;02
Mackinna
Exactly. So then it gives them a connection point for a “why behind” or why we would do this? Because I think that's a lot of the biggest pushback that I'll get from students. It’s like, “Well, why do we need to do this?” But you never get that question if you're putting them into a if you're giving them like a really good, grounded, like context and then a project to build upon that incorporates a bunch of different ways of expression, whether that be movement or art.
00;05;15;02 - 00;05;38;10
Alex
I have an interesting story about this because I've noticed you can, if you use similar techniques, because I've used like similar ideas, you can often teach people concepts that they seem like they're too young to learn. Like I was working with a girl who was like much under my usual age range of students. And we want to learn like I think it was area or volume, it was something similar, and there was just no way that I was going to explain to her conceptually what it is.
00;05;38;10 - 00;05;50;05
Alex
But if you explain our volume is like, you know how many cups of water, like, you know, it's liquid or something like that, then she was able to grasp it. And I don't think it would be possible at all to explain it in formulas.
00;05;50;05 - 00;06;06;01
Mackinna
Yes, exactly. And that's another thing, right? Like for me growing up, it was like memorize this formula, plug it in. But I didn't understand what the formula was doing. So like what you were explaining with the water, right? You're actually seeing what's happening when you're doing these calculations. So then it gives meaning to why you're doing this.
00;06;06;01 - 00;06;11;24
Mackinna
It builds a better understanding of like actual number sense versus just memorization. And that doesn't stick with you.
00;06;11;24 - 00;06;27;12
Alex
Yeah. I wonder if maybe like for some kids that are better at like applying the abstract or being like just fluent with abstract topics, it's not as critical. But I think for most people like, you know, how do you develop a number sense without having some sense in the real world of what it really means.
00;06;27;12 - 00;06;45;22
Mackinna
Right. Or access to different types of manipulatives that can help you kind of visualize and see what's happening, whether it be like even like thinking about base 10s, right, and using number blocks to create numbers and like actually physically see - Oh, how many, you know, ones, tenths, hundredths do I have that create this number? And physically seeing that.
00;06;45;22 - 00;06;53;20
Alex
We didn't have any of these manipulatives in Soviet Russia. So intuitively this makes sense. Is there like any science to back this up?
00;06;53;25 - 00;07;15;24
Mackinna
Yeah, there's a ton of science behind it. And a bunch of people are doing even more and more research because it's kind of like the cool thing to talk about, too. Everyone wants to say, you know, “Oh, we're being really creative in the classroom.” But there's a really strong science behind it, right? If we think about, first of all, all the different types of learners, we know that there's like kinesthetic, visual, auditory, all these different ways that you take in information.
00;07;15;24 - 00;07;45;19
Mackinna
And I've also found that it's really helpful to have students and my tutor students I work with as well, like identify and try and work through what way do they access information the best and then they can let me know so that I can also build more individualized plans for them based on what they might need. But if, for instance, right, you're a more kinesthetic learner, then you need to be physically doing things and you need to be moving your body and connecting a lot of these concepts with more movement.
00;07;45;19 - 00;08;05;21
Mackinna
And you also have to do all of that. You can't watch someone do the problem. You have to do the steps yourself, so they're not going to get it if they're just looking at the board, even though it could look really colorful and great for a visual learner. So you can think about the different types of ways that you take an information, but then we can also think about how our brains retain information, right?
00;08;05;21 - 00;08;25;29
Mackinna
We have these neural pathways that become stronger the more we use them. Right? And so if we're putting, like let's say again, we could go back to the area and perimeter. Example, if we're giving the student something to do that involves some sort of movement that they're doing every day, they're walking in their room in our classroom every day.
00;08;25;29 - 00;08;48;28
Mackinna
So immediately, they're building that. Okay, now they're associating. Right? Walking in, thinking about, “Okay, now this is the perimeter here.” And then I also always create like little like fun things that kind of help remember as well. Like either like it could be like rhymes or something else creative. But one thing for area is I would always say, “Okay, area is this space within.”
00;08;48;28 - 00;09;17;19
Mackinna
And for those that can't see it, you basically just put your hands like you're kind of like getting ready for a yoga class. But it's this connection with it's like a dual thing, right? So it's like they're making this movement that is then getting their brain to think, “Okay, we're doing something here.” But now it's like the space within and it connects it and builds that up and it's stronger and stronger for them to be able to remember it and it's a stronger neural pathway than if they had just talked about or written it down once because there's multiple things being used.
00;09;17;19 - 00;09;24;13
Alex
So here's a out of the box question, but is it really reasonable for kids to be able to remember or do things without this?
00;09;24;13 - 00;09;44;21
Mackinna
That's a good question. I think for some learners, 100%, yes. I think there are some kids that it makes a lot of sense just to have the formulas and the steps and they like having that structure. Boom, they're ready to go. I would question, though, for those kids that see that, are they actually able to explain what they're calculating?
00;09;44;21 - 00;10;16;10
Mackinna
Because I think a lot of times we are praising like memorization versus understanding. And I think this method is focused on building, understanding and previous methods of just like practice without integrating different things is more so of like a memorization, regurgitation almost. Now I will say that does work, but I don't think that it is as effective in truly understanding why it works, if that makes sense.
00;10;16;10 - 00;10;32;23
Alex
Absolutely. It's a question of what does it mean that it works, right? Just because someone can pass a test doesn't mean that they understand the concepts. And at some point they'll need to have a deeper understanding and they'll be like, “Wow, I don't actually understand perimeter or why these things work the way they do.” What age group is this most suitable for?
00;10;32;23 - 00;10;37;15
Alex
Like this seems like easy to apply to younger age groups is also work for older age groups?
00;10;37;17 - 00;11;05;16
Mackinna
100%. I think we actually need to incorporate this more with older students. I don't work as much with older students, but I think about like my own experience in education and anything where I had to do some sort of like project that involved some sort of performance or some sort of art to do. Like that is what I remember the most, and it's because I had to use all kinds of different skills to be able to present information.
00;11;05;16 - 00;11;27;18
Mackinna
So I had to really understand what I was presenting versus other times where I have just like written a paper or taken a test and those things don't stick with me as much. And so I think we miss out a lot in older grades because I think we get a little bit more serious thinking about, okay, maybe what's after, you know, after high school, after like or the I don't know, I feel like elementary school.
00;11;27;18 - 00;11;46;21
Mackinna
It's very easy to be like, “Oh, yeah, we have a lot of fun. We have colors, all this stuff. We have all these art supplies.” Always right in your homeroom class, right? With Math, English, all that going on. We have all of these creative supplies for the students to use when they need them. I don't think and again, I am not in a middle school or high school setting.
00;11;46;21 - 00;12;12;16
Mackinna
I don't think that's as common. And I think that if it was more common then there could be an opportunity to really deepen understanding in these subject areas. And I don't think it has to be like - oh, we're doing like it can be. It can look different because obviously these kids are more mature. And so that project might look like creating a music video that, you know, details how to find the.
00;12;12;16 - 00;12;19;18
Mackinna
and I'm like what I want to say from calculus because I don't remember much from calculus because I didn't do much in calculus, but like...
00;12;19;18 - 00;12;21;07
Alex
Some area under some curve or something.
00;12;21;09 - 00;12;31;11
Mackinna
Yeah, some area under a curve, right? So something there where they could really interact with the material in a different way than they're used to.
00;12;31;12 - 00;13;04;08
Alex
It's interesting that you mentioned that when you had to do a presentation to teach, you found that you like had to really get much deeper into the subject to really be able to explain it. And I also found that to be true whenever I did tutoring. I never remember how someone taught me like I do remember how I learned trig in school, but I remember distinctly whenever I had to teach anything, I would always end up having to create these kind of like real, not necessary tactile, but some kind of representations for people that were a little bit more out of the box to actually help them understand versus just like, “Here's the formula,
00;13;04;08 - 00;13;22;16
Alex
here's how you were taught in school, because otherwise it just it just wouldn't work. And you don't really like know, you may know enough to pass a test, but when you try to teach it, you realize you don't actually understand it that well until you can explain it in multiple different levels. So let's say we're talking about elementary school kids here and let's say you're a parent.
00;13;22;18 - 00;13;26;20
Alex
How could parents help their kids learn math using this approach?
00;13;26;22 - 00;13;43;26
Mackinna
This is one of your questions. I think that there are so many opportunities for parents to just engage with their kids, with the world around them, right? Like it could be as simple as doing something like, “Okay, today we're going to act like a clock and we're going to look and we're going to see what time it is.
00;13;43;26 - 00;14;04;05
Mackinna
But I need you to show me with your body what time it is and explain why you did that.” So there's like a lot of different fun things that you can do, right? But like, I'm thinking of, like, situations where kids might ask questions and then the parents, you had this opportunity where maybe, okay, you can incorporate a little question like if a kid and this is something I get from my students, what time is it?
00;14;04;05 - 00;14;24;05
Mackinna
Okay, well, let's go look. And why don't you show me and you can have them explain in different ways, right? Because telling time is something actually that a lot of students struggle with because we're so used to using our phones and not actually thinking about what that time might look like. And then you could even take it a step further and say, “Okay, well, we are going to have dinner in 30 minutes.
00;14;24;05 - 00;14;48;15
Mackinna
So then what would the clock look like or what would the time show?” So then they're having to think through, right? And they could either write it out, they could act it out with their body, they could draw it, or they could do practice some mental math as well using like landmark numbers. But there's lots of ways to engage in daily life where you can kind of build in math into - okay, it's kind of all around us. And so kind of looking for those opportunities.
00;14;48;15 - 00;15;05;29
Mackinna
And I think also when your child comes home and they present you with math work and you say, “This is not how I learned it.” Don't panic. Look at the problem. Have your student, even if they're stuck, have them first try to explain it to you and they might say, “Oh, well, that's not how I learned it in school.”
00;15;06;00 - 00;15;24;24
Mackinna
And say, “Okay, what did your teacher have you do? Take me step by step.” There's a lot now that we do that's more looking, especially in an elementary math setting, right? We're looking a lot more at, like friendly numbers and thinking about how we can efficiently do mental math, which I never experienced as a student.
00;15;24;24 - 00;15;51;04
Mackinna
And so that may look for into a parent, but I think don't panic about so much like doing it a certain way. But I think just ask your child more questions that allow them to feel comfortable to explore and be wrong, too. And that's okay and just have them kind of work through it. It's better, I think, to be a sounding board for them to than to necessarily say, “Well, this is how you would solve it.” If that makes sense.
00;15;51;04 - 00;16;05;24
Alex
Yeah. You know, when you brought up the clock example, I was thinking, “Oh, there's so many ways you can use that, even in different grade levels. Okay, so first you're doing time, but then at some point you can use that same hand motion to be like, ”Okay, what angle is this?” What's the angle of like the minute hand two to the 12.
00;16;05;24 - 00;16;10;16
Alex
Or you could say, “Okay, you can look at it as fractions like what fraction of the hour, and you can
00;16;10;17 - 00;16;11;05
Mackinna
Totally.
00;16;11;06 - 00;16;18;23
Alex
sweep out a size of the clock pie. There's so many ways to do this. How do you do this in a classroom setting, though?
00;16;18;25 - 00;16;52;05
Mackinna
So this is again, like with any concept that I'm teaching, while usually like associated with a specific project or exploration. So it might not look like and this isn't happening every single lesson, right? They're not this isn't necessarily something that happens every single time, right? There are some times where we do go back to just that rote repetition because it is good practice, but usually it'll be incorporating like some sort of activity where they're either engaging with the world around them or the world within them.
00;16;52;05 - 00;17;14;09
Mackinna
So thinking about how they can express their understanding and what that might look like, so that might be okay, they're going to create a video, you know, of looking at these different types of angles, right? So I had one of my students do this, one of my tutoring students do this, where she acted out different types of angles.
00;17;14;09 - 00;17;33;16
Mackinna
And so then she had all of these, which is really cool. And that helped her. And she made all these voices for like obtuse and acute, so that like she had like a tiny voice, like a tiny soft voice for acute and this like big, wild voice for obtuse. So it was great. And like, but then other times we'll just strictly look at angles and say, okay, how do we know and talk through?
00;17;33;16 - 00;17;54;18
Mackinna
But I always like to start and this is also going back to my science teaching. I always like to start with like an exploratory. I don't expect the students to know it right away. And they may have no idea what's going on, which is also okay. All I want them to do is like ask questions and kind of start piecing together like different parts of it.
00;17;54;18 - 00;18;11;18
Mackinna
So if we like, let's say if I was doing like an exploratory lesson, on different types of angles, I might just put an obtuse angle, a right angle and a cute angle, and I might just say, “What do you notice?” Without anything else. And I want them to talk me through what they're seeing, talk me through what they already know.
00;18;11;18 - 00;18;29;26
Mackinna
Practicing, accessing that kind of information and pulling from what they already know, too, is a really important skill that can also be built on just having them kind of explore it first. And then we'll throw in more of the integrated lessons with also some of the more repetition and practice.
00;18;30;02 - 00;18;41;21
Alex
That actually like touches on my next question, which is how do you integrate this into like the current educational standards? Is there any room for it in the standards, or is it just something you add to make the standards work essentially?
00;18;41;24 - 00;19;07;11
Mackinna
I think it only boosts the standards. I think the purpose of these types of lessons and integrating art and movement and these different ways of demonstrating knowledge only help the student access true understanding. So whatever goal that might be, we're basically giving them another pathway to get to that end goal. So it goes with the standard.
00;19;07;11 - 00;19;17;24
Mackinna
So we're not changing, you know, New York standards here. We're not reinventing the wheel. All we're doing is teaching the students another way to roll the wheel.
00;19;17;26 - 00;19;25;17
Alex
Gotcha. So this is basically a tool to help them actually have a deeper understanding of what they should be learning. The more formalized concept there should be learning.
00;19;25;18 - 00;19;26;28
Mackinna
Exactly. Yes.
00;19;26;29 - 00;19;30;03
Alex
Can you share like success stories of students who have benefited from this?
00;19;30;03 - 00;20;03;08
Mackinna
There is a student that I tutor who struggles with Base 10s. He loves, loves, loves, Marvel. And so I created a bunch of problems that involved knowledge using Base 10s with like Marvel superhero characters that he had to, like, draw and create and like, put on teams. And like this really helped him kind of like, understand how many needed to go on, how many tenths were in a hundred because we had ten
00;20;03;08 - 00;20;19;22
Mackinna
Spider-Man's from the multiverse going into 100. So it's like things like that where it's like you're taking the fundamental route of what they need to get. And you're kind of throwing in some fun stuff that they really like that is going to make sense to them in their world.
00;20;19;24 - 00;20;27;06
Alex
Oh, okay. I was trying to figure out how do you use 10s and Marvel. Do you have other examples? I’m so curious, this is going to be totally off-topic.
00;20;27;09 - 00;20;32;19
Mackinna
I'm trying to think of what else I've done. So I well, in my science, I would always do rap battles.
00;20;32;19 - 00;20;33;11
Alex
Wait, what?
00;20;33;13 - 00;20;55;07
Mackinna
So I would have rap battles with my students. So this was for our electricity unit. And so basically at the end of the unit, after, you know, we lit up light bulbs of potatoes, all these really cool experiments. And they should understand North, South Pole, like all these different things, they could create a rap and I would give them three options for beats.
00;20;55;07 - 00;21;13;04
Mackinna
They would practice, they would write it, they would practice with each other on their table groups. Then they would rap, battle each other, the winners of each. It would be like a full bracket. And then the winner of that got to rap battle me. And I told them that it was going to be like a rap battle roast, so they had to be ready because I was going to throw it out.
00;21;13;04 - 00;21;34;00
Mackinna
So they would like often it was great because they would really rally behind each other and they'd be like, “Oh wait, add this part about this” and like, throw in an extra line. It's great. And they had so much fun with it. And it was one of my favorite things to do because it was pulling from my own creative love of music and getting to incorporate that with them too.
00;21;34;00 - 00;21;41;27
Mackinna
Some of them still know their raps. They remember because they wrote it. That's like their own song.
00;21;41;29 - 00;21;52;27
Alex
That is fantastic. So this is what you get by actually getting a good education. People who want to teach you well. My next question was going to be related, which is how do you incorporate this into subjects other than math?
00;21;52;29 - 00;22;21;19
Mackinna
Yeah, you can do with any subject. Well, that's the other thing too. Like, so I was... Originally, I started off as a specialist teacher in a science position at the elementary school. And I think that we always think about how important, like math, reading, like these are like our core subjects, but those can exist in specialist subjects that Math and English can exist in theater, it can exist in chess, it can exist everywhere, and those subjects can also exist in the core curriculum.
00;22;21;19 - 00;22;37;26
Mackinna
I think we spend too much time. I mean, this is a whole another tangent. I think we spend too much time saying this is the most important and these are the extras, the extracurriculars. I don't think anything extra. I think we have a whole child and we have a whole bandwidth of knowledge to pull from and put together.
00;22;37;26 - 00;23;01;06
Mackinna
It's a web and it's not like sections. And so you can use different parts of that web to help you understand something else. So like, this could work, you could in art, right? You could create two dimensional shapes and have that become a drawing and work on measuring like give students specific measure and measurements that they need to do for each shape.
00;23;01;06 - 00;23;19;25
Mackinna
Or you could think about like theater, like maybe they're going through and now this is switching to like reading. But they, I mean, they're having to read out loud for their parts, for their scripts, right? All of these things intertwine. And I think we would spend so much time think about them as separate when they actually should be going in between each other because they could only help students.
00;23;19;25 - 00;23;35;14
Alex
Gotcha. That was also going to be the theme of my next question. I think I know your answer, but let's be clear. So is there any conflict between creativity and rigor when using like art and music for math learning or any of these other subjects that people need to learn?
00;23;35;17 - 00;23;59;21
Mackinna
No, because I would argue creativity is rigorous in itself. I think it's sometimes even harder if you're staring at a blank page and you have nothing to come up with. In any project that you give, creativity doesn't mean that it's just easy, right? Creativity just means that you are pulling from multiple different sources, coming up with your own individual way of arriving to an answer.
00;23;59;21 - 00;24;06;11
Mackinna
So I think in that way, it's more rigorous because it's not just one set way to do something.
00;24;06;11 - 00;24;14;01
Alex
Great. Okay, I think I think that's all for today. Then I hope people found this interesting and I really appreciate you coming on.
00;24;14;04 - 00;24;16;07
Mackinna
Yeah, thanks for having me. Hopefully it didn't ramble too much.
00;24;16;12 - 00;24;36;26
Alex
No, no, not at all. This has been great. All right, folks, thank you so much for tuning in today. We appreciate your time and hope you found our discussion insightful and valuable. If you have any questions or thoughts about today's topic, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. You'll find our email address in the show notes. We also welcome any suggestions for future topics you'd like us to cover as our goal is to provide you with the most useful and relevant information possible.
00;24;36;27 - 00;24;55;15
Alex
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00;24;55;16 - 00;25;01;12
Alex
Once again, thank you for joining us and we look forward to connecting with you in our next episode. Take care and see you soon.