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I would just like to be a fly on the wall!
Pull up a seat at our table, where badass women from all walks of life—fashion, beauty, design, music, philanthropy, art, and more—come together to share honest stories, serve truths, and dig into the realities of modern womanhood.
Johanna Almstead:
Hello everyone. If you are a regular listener, you know that the impetus behind this podcast is the fact that I have the extraordinary privilege and extraordinary joy in my life to get to sit across dinner tables with fantastic women. And my guest today is somebody who I have got to sit across from at probably 1,000 meals, literally in almost every continent. She and I have eaten and traveled all over the place together. And so I'm excited for this meal. I also feel a little bit of pressure.
But one of the meals that we shared was in her hometown of London, and she took us to one of her favorite places. And I believe it was J Sheekey's, which is this beautiful sort of old world salon type restaurant. And they have these little buttons, it looks like a little doorbell, at some of the tables. It says push for champagne, and if you push it, they'll bring you a bottle of champagne. It's pretty great. It's very luxurious and very beautiful. And actually one of the times we went, it was like the first time a bunch of people we were with had ever tried caviar and ever tried really sort of old school fancy foods.
So I am going to go old school fancy today. First we are going to start out with some caviar. She likes it with blinis. I like it with potato chips. So I'm going to have both. I'm going to have some creme fraiche and some beautiful caviar and some little pancake blinis and some potato chips. And we are going to open a gorgeous bottle of champagne because she and I both really like a good bottle of champagne.
And then at that same restaurant, one of their specialties is this beautiful huge, you order it for the table to share, and it's beef Wellington. So it's this gorgeous roast of beef that's covered in pastry shell, and I believe it's foie gras on the inside. So I am going to put on my Julia Child/Martha Stewart, whoever is way more talented in the kitchen than me, hat on today. And I'm going to attempt to make a gorgeous beef Wellington because I'm really feeling nostalgic.
And I think I'm going to, on the side of that, I'm going to do a little creamed spinach. I'm going to do some roasted carrots, and some lovely just sort of tossed greens, like a tossed mesclun or something. And I think we might need to go, I don't think she really drinks red. We'll have some Sancerre. We might just keep drinking champagne the whole night. That's maybe what we're going to do.
Anyway. Music wise, definitely some Stevie Nicks, some Fleetwood Mac, probably a little bit of Coldplay, probably a little Journey. She'll know the Journey reference when I say it. And I don't know, I'm feeling I'm really into Lana Del Rey again, so maybe we'll put some of that in there. This next guest is wise. She's beautiful. She is smart, she is creative, she is worldly, and I hope that you guys learn something today, or have at least a little bit of fun. So I can't wait for you guys to meet her. Let's dig in.
Hello everyone and welcome to Eat My Words. Today is a very special full circle moment kind of day for me because I have a very special guest whom I have not had a proper catch up with in a very long time. My guest today has been a leader in the fashion business for more than 30 years. She's been responsible for the transformations of brands such as Burberry, Banana Republic, and Kate Spade. She led a team as the chief creative officer at Kate Spade that grew the business exponentially and far exceeded everyone's expectations.
She is now an avid gardener, a ceramicist, and world traveler. She's also working to preserve the heritage craftsmanship of British fashion and to restore the Bath Fashion Museum in Bath, England. She is a wife. She is a daughter, a godmother, an auntie, a dog mom to her Schnauzer Merlin, and a dear friend. She is also someone with whom I spent more time when we worked together than I actually did my own husband. She is my former boss, one of the hardest working people I know, and someone I admire very much for her vision, her discipline, and her A plus student approach to always learning and always growing. Deborah Lloyd, welcome to Eat My Words.
Deborah Lloyd:
Thank you so much. This is an absolute pleasure and I'm so happy to catch up with you. It's been far too long.
Johanna Almstead:
It has been far too long. And as I've said before on this podcast, this is sort of my ulterior motive is that I get to see people that I love and force them to hang out with me for a little bit. I was thinking as I was preparing for this, that this really is a full circle moment. If anyone understands the relationship between a PR person and a designer, it used to be me that would be the one that would be prepping you for this type of interview. And now I'm the culprit.
Deborah Lloyd:
I know. You'd be, deep breaths.
Johanna Almstead:
Deep breaths.
Deborah Lloyd:
Have a moment. Flick your hair up.
Johanna Almstead:
Yes, exactly. Look down. Look up.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yes.
Johanna Almstead:
Well, thank you so much for being here and for trusting me with this process because I know it is not your favorite thing to do. And I really, really appreciate you taking the time. So thank you.
Deborah Lloyd:
You're absolutely welcome. It's a long time since I've done anything like this. I'm in a totally different world now.
Johanna Almstead:
You are, which I want to talk about. I want to talk about both worlds if it's okay with you. Because I know your world is very, very different now than it was when we worked together. But I want to give people a little bit of background. I always like to try to explain how we know each other. You were hired on at Kate Spade as the creative director and co-president at a time after Kate and Andy had sold the business. And I was hired very shortly thereafter.
And at the time, it wasn't really a huge company. But there was a lot of big dreams and big goals for the company, and you were hired to make those things happen. During your time there. We launched a zillion new categories, including apparel and fragrance and beauty and watches and swimwear and more. We expanded around the globe into new territories, including China, the Middle East, the UK, Korea, and more. So you and I worked very closely together because every time you had to be out talking about the brand, or the brand had to be out in the world, it was my job to make sure that that went well. And so we spent many, many long days and nights in photo shoots and on airplanes and traveling the world and prepping for press interviews. And I once made you take a helicopter ride around Sao Paulo with the worst hangover you had ever had.
Deborah Lloyd:
I remember. And you picked to do it for an hour, not even half an hour, an hour.
Johanna Almstead:
I know. I thought we needed an hour. I'm sorry. I didn't know. I don't think I've ever seen you turn that color of green that you were that day. So as I said, I know your life looks really different than when we were working together, but I'd like to go back a little bit just for the people who are listening, because I know there are people out there who have been fans of your work for many, many years, and I love to just understand people's journeys. And I think obviously it all leads you to where you are now, which I can't wait to hear more about. But where would you say your journey began?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think my journey began, and it was very clear to me, I remember a school careers evening, I was probably 15, and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was good at art, but I always liked a challenge. So I tended to work harder in the subjects I found more difficult because I just didn't want to not succeed. But I remember at this careers evening, somebody came from the art college, and he was talking about careers in the arts, and he suddenly said about a career in fashion. And for some reason, just at 15 years old, I went, that's what I want to do. And I remember standing up and going, "Right. I want to be a fashion designer. How do I do it?" And he was like, "Slow down, slow down. It's not that easy." And I spoke to him afterwards, I found out the process, but from that moment onwards, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.
It suddenly felt that all of the different leads, the things I loved personally outside of school, I had a reason for being. And this was the thing that tied it all up neatly for me, and I felt it was something I could do. So I followed the route. I had to do a foundation course where you try everything. I still want to be a fashion designer, but they made me do nine months of trying graphic design, sculpture, fine art, photography, all these different things. But my course was set really.
And so I started applying for these London colleges. And I was living in the boonies. It was like, how could a girl from living where I'm living and not really, well sort of loved fashion, but from afar. I'd always done these mood boards and they'd be the things on my wall, fashion I liked from catalogs, different things. But I really probably didn't understand high fashion at that time, applying for all of these highbrow fashion colleges in London. But they must have seen something because I got in. And when I got there, it was quite hard because you'd see all these guys and girls who have come from London and major cities, and they knew what was going on. But surprisingly, it didn't take long to catch up and work out what was going on, and how to start achieving in all of these different disciplines they're asking you to do there.
Johanna Almstead:
I always say this, that you have been, since I've known you, an A student, and I use that as a term just to say, and you just described it, you're somebody who gets into a problem or a situation and you observe it all, and you start working it all out, and you find a way to make it work. At that early age, did you know you were doing that or you were just sort of it's just your natural state?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think it's my natural state, but I've worked out as well that when you were leaving college, there were a lot more people in the women's wear side than the men's wear. And even though when you're at college, you try everything, you try all the disciplines. And you try printing, you try knitting, you try men's wear, women's wear, children's wear, you try everything, but you had to specialize at the end. And I'd worked out, there were much fewer people in men's wear, particularly fewer women, and I might get noticed more.
So I decided to go down the route of men's wear. And that's how I got into the Royal College, how I got my first job. But it wasn't the be all and end all. It was just a really good route to take to get noticed. And I did get noticed for doing the men's wear. So that got me my first job in Italy. And then eventually when I worked in Paris, they gave me the opportunity to flip from men's to women's. And that was really exciting because, even though I'd chosen to do men's, maybe it wasn't my passion, but I could do it and I could do it well. Men's was about 80% never changed. And it was just the nuances you could play with.
But suddenly if you worked in women's wear, 100% change each season. It was so exciting. And there was color and there was femininity, and all these different things I could suddenly play with. So the floodgates were opened, and I was so happy that I finally could do women's wear. And I think that's the reason that I managed to move on in my career. Because compared to studying and working primarily in the US, where you're given a category and you have to stick to that category, so you might do women's shirts or women's pants or men's something, but in England you've got to try everything. And so I could flip from men's to women's. And so when people are looking for creative directors or people to head up studios, I had a very rounded background and I worked in all of these different disciplines. So at a young age, I was able to take on roles that you couldn't necessarily take on in other places in the world.
Johanna Almstead:
That's huge. I mean, I think that's majorly pivotal to how you built your career, right?
Deborah Lloyd:
Yes. the funny thing is I hadn't done accessories. So Kate Spade was quite interesting. However, I had done accessories when I came to Banana Republic, that was part of the thing. It was men's, women's, and accessories. So I did have a sense of it. But I'm a strong believer in surrounding myself with really good people. So I realized you can't do everything yourself. So it's really good, as you move up through your career, it's been really good working with the best in the business. I've worked with such talented people. And it's allowing them to shine in those roles makes me look good as well. So it's a win-win for everybody really.
Johanna Almstead:
To that point, how do you spot talent? What is it that you see? What makes you choose a designer over another one to help support your team? Or back then.
Deborah Lloyd:
I always love seeing their portfolio and how they bring a project to life. I'd often set projects and I'd have an idea of how I'd like to see it, and I loved it when someone really surprised me and how they could talk about their work. It was having passion for their work. I like people who were real. I'm not very good with bullshitters. I like people who really can do what they say they do. I've been tricked a couple of times, and you learn to spot that really.
But yeah, I like down to earth people. You spend an awful lot of time with the people you're working with. And I'm a strong believer you want to spend time outside of work with them. They become really good friends in the end. And you've got to have each other's backs. And it's hard work. So yeah, it's picking people that you know can work with, you can spend time with, that you can trust. And they have talent and they can do something that you can't do.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. You've always struck me as somebody who was obviously very, very creative, but also a very savvy business woman. Does one of those feel more like your natural state to you, or was one that you had to cultivate and work on more? What is your natural state or do you feel like there's always been that balance inside of you?
Deborah Lloyd:
I've always been pretty well balanced. I've always analyzed things and thought things through. It's always creativity first for me, but I always, since a child, thought things through. What's the end point here? Rather than just doing something for the sake of it, I like to know where it's going, what's the reason for doing it?
Johanna Almstead:
A little-
Deborah Lloyd:
So I think that helped me.
Johanna Almstead:
... strategic, it sounds like.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah, I was always quite strategic. Everybody, and my bosses say I was very left brain, right brain. But yeah, it was just there. It was something I didn't have to nurture really. It was sort of there. I wouldn't say I was a particularly good business woman, but I'm strategic, I guess. I think things through.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. So you've had a long and storied and beautiful career. Did you have a favorite job since you left college? What was your favorite of all of them?
Deborah Lloyd:
I loved going to Paris. Even though it wasn't my favorite job, I learned a lot, but just working in Paris. Oh, I love France. I love everything about it. So my jobs in Paris. But each one's been a learning process and I've loved each one. But Paris, it was really hard in a way because I sort of went there. It was a different era. I remember it took me ages to persuade the people who'd brought me to Paris to help me get an apartment. So my first place where I lived was just off Rue Saint-Denis. I was probably the only person in the establishment that rented a room for the entire night versus by the hour. No restaurant.
Johanna Almstead:
Charming.
Deborah Lloyd:
It wasn't fancy. Yes. So you found your feet very quickly. You found the restaurants to go to. And I found the French people so friendly. I didn't speak French... Well, I hardly spoke French at all when I arrived. But by the end, I was fluent. And I found the people incredibly supportive, and I had the most wonderful time. So the most rounded time and the most fun I've had is in Paris because it was sort of early days of my career. So I was working at Daniel Hechter, then I went on to work at Kenzo. And it was just a fantastic time to be in Paris.
And then as things moved on, my jobs got a little more serious, so it was a little harder. I mean, each one has given me something. Like Burberry, I learned so much. I had American bosses who came in there and they taught me so much. You work so hard. I remember sleeping under my desk, hiding under my desk when security came around to make sure out the building, but it was too hard to go home and come back again. So you just found somewhere to curl up. And HR didn't really exist then, so they didn't really seem to mind. But it was really hard. But yeah, the fact that you learned so much there, it sort of enabled me to go on further in my career, and to come to America and not be surprised about how hard and how smart people were when you came to work in America.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Was that a big hard decision to leave the UK and move to America?
Deborah Lloyd:
I've always trusted my gut when it comes to jobs. When I took the job at Burberry, Burberry wasn't anything. Rose Marie Bravo wasn't there. Burberry was a sleepy English company that looks like it wanted to change, but they didn't really know how to. But something told me something was going to happen there. And I love heritage brands, and I loved the brand, and I loved all the DNA of the brand, but it just become so diluted and there was nothing there. It was run, the collections were designed by the agents. So it would be this lining with this button, and they choose it all. And it was nice to go in there and sort of pick the DNA and really work on that DNA. And I think that's what enabled me to go on to do these other roles later on. It's helping distill down the DNA of these companies, and sort of help bring that out with your team. Dial me back to your question, which was...
Johanna Almstead:
Which was-
Deborah Lloyd:
I've gotten off the track.
Johanna Almstead:
I don't even remember. Oh, making the-
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, to America.
Johanna Almstead:
... decision to come to the US. Yeah.
Deborah Lloyd:
To America. So yeah, so I'd had the experience of working with amazing American women as my bosses, and I loved it. It was really hard, so I knew what to expect. However, I was ready for the change. I was ready to go. I'd been at Burberry for six years. It'd been an amazing job. And I'd seen the brand really sort of come from sleepy English brand to something that was an international, it became known as doing a Burberry because it was so exciting what we've managed to achieve there.
But it was time to move on. They just brought in a new creative director, Christopher Bailey, and I was like, you know what? I want to go on and make my own name. What's next for me? And just, I'm a strong believer things happen for a reason. And I suddenly got the phone call about going to America. I wasn't sure, but it sounded good. My first job in America was Banana Republic, and I'd always loved what it did. I thought it had the most beautiful, at the time, the most beautiful cashmere. It was where you went when you wanted something that looked designer, but it wasn't designer. It was at that moment where it was something cool could go on there. So off I went. And it was a really strange moment because I signed my contract on September the 10th.
Johanna Almstead:
That's right. I forgot about that.
Deborah Lloyd:
And I was in the Mercer Hotel when the planes hit. So I was in New York when September the 11th happened. And the day before, I'd been up the World Trade Centers and I was looking for where to live in Manhattan. So I'd been up there less than 24 hours before. So it was a... Being in the middle of that.
However, Gap was incredibly good to me. We're staying there. And Mickey Drexler called us at the hotel to make sure we're okay. He said, "Look, you signed your contract, but you can do whatever you like." But I saw New York under all that stress and how the people were, and how much empathy they had and how much they loved their city. And I was like, I like this place. I really want to be part of this. So yes, so I had no hesitation. And I came over in November of that year and started work.
Johanna Almstead:
And then you stayed in the US for a total of how many years?
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, I was probably there for around just under 20. So it took me a long time at the end to unwind. So I was in the US.
Johanna Almstead:
You had built your life. You had built a big life here.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah. Untangling myself from working so hard. There's so much. When you work that hard, there's so much you don't do and can't do because of you're living on the fashion calendar. So it took me a while to detangle and work out what I wanted to do versus what I was being told I needed to do because the fashion calendar said this, or this is where we were in the season, so this is what had to happen.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about that transition because I feel like there's a lot of people who are going through it, not always necessarily at the same level or at the same sort of dichotomy. But I've talked about this on this podcast a lot, and a lot of guests were part of this, it's like we worked our asses off, and you particularly worked your ass off. You often worked six days a week. You often would be flying in from some country and landing and hitting the pavement in New York, and working, working, working. And then having to go to an event and then having to do an interview and then having to do sketch review. And it really was nonstop for at least when we worked together, a good seven years, I think even longer for you. And I wonder, well, first of all, I guess, what are some of the sacrifices that you made during that time and was it worth it?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think it's not underestimating moving country because you're moving away from your family or friends, your support system. And so there's so many things you can't do. You can't be there at birthdays. I mean, my husband's birthday was always on the day of our fashion show. And he didn't always want to be going to the fashion show. So there were big birthdays that you'd miss. And you're always sort of running, trying to catch up, but you always sort of miss those things with family and friends. Birthdays, their birthdays, you just wouldn't see them. So you'd sort of have to catch up when you could catch up. So your life wasn't your own, you just had to sort of work around it.
And there'd be wonderful things that you were able to do, but there were so many things that you couldn't do that now, looking back, I'm like, well, I'm making up for lost time now. Holidays, things. You wouldn't travel the way I can travel now and actually really have time to go and see someone. You'd go to a country and you'd just see the factories. You'd go to a country, I remember bribing a driver once to take me to see the cherry blossoms in Japan because they were coming out, and there was no time to go and see them. Something that always been on my bucket list. So we left an hour early so I could go by those to run out, take a picture, and say I'd seen them. But yes, it's hard. But you sort of learn, there were compensations in so many other ways. And you always knew it was going to be finite. It will end at certain points. So there were going to be things that you could do and catch up with.
Johanna Almstead:
Was the transition from working like a crazy person to not working, after all the changes happened at Kate Spade, and you decided it was time to go, and left and moved back to England, was that a hard transition to all of a sudden go from nine million miles an hour to normal, to even maybe a little slower life? How was that transition for you mentally? Or were you ready? Were you like, I've done what I was supposed to do and I'm kind ready for rest?
Deborah Lloyd:
I was really ready. I'm not working again. I mean, I was like, I've done my bit.
Johanna Almstead:
You have.
Deborah Lloyd:
But no, I was ready for it. And I'm very good. I sort of mentally, this is my new world, and I have plenty of things to do. I'm not good at being bored. So I always wake up, to this day, I still have an agenda of what I want to do, what I want to achieve in that day.
Johanna Almstead:
Every day still?
Deborah Lloyd:
Most days. I'm not good at waking up without having a bit of a plan. I like to have a plan about what I'm going to do. And I just don't like wasting my time. So I like to have something worthwhile to do, something to achieve. So even if it's just making chutney at the moment or something, whatever's going on. But yes, so it was a change, but I had plenty of projects on the go that were different projects that I hadn't had a chance to do, I had house renovations, gardens, different things, packing, stuff to get rid of. It was just endless really.
Johanna Almstead:
And now let's talk a little bit about how you spend your days. I mean, you have the most spectacular garden and you treat it's a full-time job, it seems.
Deborah Lloyd:
Well, I have to. Otherwise I'd have huge gardener's bills because it is large. And it's like I have worked with some people, and they've gone, "Right, I've done an amazing job," and they've done about six foot of the garden. I'm like, "What about the other 150 feet?" It's like, yes. So I just love it. I'm sort of self-taught, and I've made a lot of mistakes.
I do have one fabulous gardener who came with the property. He's been here for many years. And he's so knowledgeable, and I just love learning from him. He's a professor. He does teach. So I am learning the whole time. He's so polite with me because just because I say it wants to go there, it's not necessarily going to grow there. And he'll go, "Deborah, are you sure you'd like to plant this here?" Which is code for it's never going to live here. It's going to die a death.
So yes, I've really enjoyed learning about the garden. And I've always loved color. And the garden's a chance to continue with that. And it's different plants, different colors. I mean, it's an evolution, it's an old walled garden. So you've got all of these beds with different directions of sunlight, and sort of building up from the back of the bed to the front. It took me a while to realize taller plants at the back, smaller ones at the front. It sounds obvious, but it takes a while.
And a garden in England is about 12 months of the year, unlike gardening. And I had gardens where I'd, upstate, I'd try and create my little bit of England in the garden upstate. But here you can garden 12 months of the year. Upstate, you'd maybe April through to the end of October. And the rest of it, the ground was frozen and different things, so you couldn't do anything. So I really love that.
And I think now, looking at that, thinking if I had a secondary career, it would be in the garden design and the plants. I love plants. And I now grow a lot myself. I'll do a lot of cuttings, propagation. So really learning the technical side of things. Because when you have a garden that size, you go to the garden center, one plant is going nowhere. It just gets lost. So thank goodness, I've got a greenhouse. So I'm constantly growing things, planting them out, the evolution.
And as the seasons change and as climate changes as well, even in the five years I've been here, we've seen huge changes in what works. Plants have been here, ancient plants have just died. Things have gone. So you're replacing things, learning things, trying to put new things in. I keep a lot of diaries of the seasons, and what works and what doesn't, when things are coming up, when they're not. I'd maybe like to do a book someday about my life here and what I'm doing months to month from the gardens to the cooking, to all of the different things. So I'm very self-sufficient here. So from the very first things that come through in the garden, what am I cooking with them? What am I doing with them? I've found that a very healthy way to live, not just for what you're eating, but for my mind as well. Seeing the seasons, I've absolutely loved it.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Wow, that makes me really happy to hear that that's [inaudible 00:28:47].
Deborah Lloyd:
So when I'm not in the garden, I've been finally doing, I mean, we used to travel so much, I used to travel more with you than I ever did with my husband, I think.
Johanna Almstead:
Totally.
Deborah Lloyd:
And we probably went to all those-
Johanna Almstead:
We went to some crazy places.
Deborah Lloyd:
... crazy, amazing, incredible places. But I'm getting to go to some of those places under my own steam and really explore and spend time in those places, and not just traveling around and dropping and flopping on a beach. It's really, I've done quite a few trips where you're sort of going to, whether it's India, which I did earlier this year, but spending a lot of time working with craftspeople, seeing what they can achieve. So that's always been my passion. I love bringing things to life and working with these craftspeople and seeing different ways of doing things versus mass production. And trying to sponsor and keep this craftsmanship going really. Because once these artisans go, we'll never know how to do these things.
Johanna Almstead:
I know. It's so scary. And AI cannot replicate that. So is it different, I mean, I can't really imagine because still kind of in the grind, is it different to be traveling in a place where you're not checking your phone a million times and knowing what you're missing back in the office? There's nothing. You're actually just free to be really present and immerse yourself in those moments. That feels just so what a gift, right?
Deborah Lloyd:
It is a real gift. And it's actually spending the time. You can be so present. And yes, and you sort of spend time with these people. You're not racing to the next appointment. So missing the best things going on. So that has been wonderful. And I try and sort of do these things that will follow my interests. So whether it's craft, gardens. So going to the garden, seeing the plants all over the world, seeing what's working. And ceramics. Ceramics is my other love that I've taken up. It's something when I was at school, I remember going to one pottery class, and I absolutely loved it. And for some reason it was one and done. And I always said, when I finish working, I'd love to take this up again.
And it's something that I feel that when you're working, it's hard. You need the time and the space to really focus and concentrate. And it wasn't something easily you could drift in and out of. I needed a space to be able to put the things, to leave them there, to let them sit. So that's been another great pleasure to sort of start ceramics again, and start creating things again that are relevant. I like things that are useful. I'm not very good for art for art's sake. I wish I was. So it's like these things have got to hold something. They've got to hold flowers or plants, or they've got to be platters for the food I'm creating. So it's something that's additive to my life really.
Johanna Almstead:
That's lovely. I can't wait to see some of your pieces. This is fun.
Deborah Lloyd:
I know. I need to start posting. Yes. I need to sort of get back into-
Johanna Almstead:
Do we need to have a social media strategy meeting?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think we might. Yes. Yeah, exactly. What to focus on. Yes.
Johanna Almstead:
What to focus on. I had the great pleasure of coming to visit you in Bath shortly after you guys had moved there. And I had this moment of such recognition and joy for you that you were finally in this place that I felt like you had always meant to be, and that you had worked so hard, and that it all led you to this sort of magical life now. And so I'm really, really happy. I'm glad to hear it's going well.
Deborah Lloyd:
Thank you. It's funny. Every job I've had, everything I've had, it's like everything's been additive. So it's all been leading on a pathway. And I'm a strong believer in things happen for a reason. My mother always used to say that. I, years ago, tried to come to America before I was headhunted for Banana Republic, and it just didn't work. I'd have interviews. Nobody was interested in me. It's funny how when the moment's right things happen.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Trusting the universe has its timing, right?
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah. You have to trust the universe. Do your homework a bit, but trust the universe. And right time, right place, and things will click.
Johanna Almstead:
Do you have any moments in your life where you look back and think, whoa, if I had not done that, where would my life be?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think it's those jobs like Burberry. At the time, it was this little sleepy, provincial English company that was based in Hackney. We used to look out the windows and we'd see they had the factory shop next door. It was so rough. We'd look out the window, and occasionally you'd see somebody, like one of the Japanese tourists going into the factory shop and getting mugged. I mean, it was like I used to have to pay someone, one of the local little boys, to look after my car to make sure no one broke into it. So it wasn't easy. Yeah. So Burberry was definitely one. It's these gut reactions to jobs.
Kate Spade was another one. I remember getting a phone call first thing in the morning. And it was weird because I was happy at Banana Republic, but I knew I could see the writing on the wall. I see I was becoming bored. I'd been there for six years. So I made myself write a list of all the things that I wanted from my next job. Banana Republic was vast. It was looking after huge teams. That's where I really learned to manage teams. So each job gave me something.
And so I wrote this list of what I'd like to do. And I said, I want to focus on a more singular product category that I don't really know. Something I'm going to learn something about, something that's new for me. So it's not just me giving. I can learn something, and add something as well, and look at things in new ways. So smaller company. And suddenly, I don't know, it was before manifesting was a thing, but two weeks later, I got the phone call. And it was this headhunter. And she was like, "I know you don't like to take calls unannounced, but give me one minute to sell you this job."
It was so funny. And I was like, "How did you get this number?" So I was like, "Please, yeah, let me know." And she sort of talked about Kate Spade. And I was like, well, I know the company a little bit. I've had friends who have worked there, so let me take a look. So I sort of went to the store. And I remember walking in the store thinking there's a lot of parallels between what's on the floor and the shelves here between what I love myself personally. So that was another little bit of serendipity that happened.
But it's about your guts. You get this gut feeling. I had a gut feeling about Burberry. And in the end, I had a gut feeling about Kate Spade. So it was like, just follow that. There was no rhyme nor reason how that would be such a big success it was. There was no rhyme nor reason with Burberry. It was just a feeling that something, there was an adventure in each of those brands that could be awakened really.
Johanna Almstead:
And so I talk a lot about this, about trusting your gut and getting in tune with your intuition. As a mother of two kids, two girls, I'm kind of psycho about them learning to trust their gut and tuning into that stuff because I think it can be a safety thing, but it can also be a life-changing thing. So do you think that you always had good intuition even as a kid, or is that something that you developed over time? Do you remember ever having a gut feeling when you were little?
Deborah Lloyd:
Yes, I do. And I don't know whether... Some rather spooky things have happened as well, that I've had intuition about things. I broke my leg horse riding once. And I was leaving from home to go riding, and I knew I shouldn't have gone. And that night, broke my leg. It's funny. I've had a few things like that. It's the strangest thing.
And the thing is you just think you're stupid. You're thinking why would I not do that? But yes, off I went and broke my leg that night. And I was like, I knew something odd was going to happen. But yes, it's weird. Yes. Since I was younger, I would sort of trust my gut as well. I'm pretty good on people as well. You could get a sense of someone's character, the ones that were good and the ones that weren't. When you asked me earlier about recruiting, finding people, there's something, instantly you get a sense of whether you could get on with that person, or if there was something a little off and you weren't going to work together. But I could sense that, people in general, I'm quite street smart. You can see if something's going to go down, I'm ready for it.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. That's good. When you were younger, did you have a picture of what having it all or being successful meant? Did you have a picture of what that would be when you were younger? And does your life look anything like what you thought it was going to?
Deborah Lloyd:
No, I didn't really have it planned out. I mean, it wasn't till 15 that I decided I wanted to do fashion. I was interested in a lot of things. I liked making things. I had fabulous female role models in my aunts. I had these aunts that lived all over the world. And so my grandmother, I remember her emigrating at six years old, waving goodbye when she was going on the train station to Australia. And she worked her way around the world.
And I started to get to know about fashion and costumes from these dolls that she sent me a national dress or my other aunt who was a sort of fashion designer in the early days that'd be trekking through Nepal. And she'd come back wearing the most fabulous outfits. So I loved fabrics, I loved costume, I'd loved adventure. But I hadn't worked out what my part in it would be or what would be my ticket to take me to these places and enable me to do it because I wasn't particularly talented academically. Like I said, I loved art, but I wasn't a great artist in the sense. And that was always a frustration at fashion college. I was never the best drawer. But what I was good at is I really worked hard to get my drawings so they would get notice. But I was really good at translating that drawing into a 3D garment.
And then at college, I got known for making more money than the lecturers because I used to win all these competitions because I was very good. There would be lots of competitions you could win money. So I managed to get myself out of student debt before I left college because I'd managed to win these competitions. So I'd sort of worked out what you needed to do to win these competitions. So I remember with my winnings buying my first piece of [inaudible 00:39:18], and was very proud of that.
Johanna Almstead:
Oh yeah, girl. Yeah, you did. That's amazing. That's a moment. That's a pivotal fashion moment for someone to be able to buy their first big piece.
Deborah Lloyd:
Big piece of [inaudible 00:39:30]. So I think I was 19, 20.
Johanna Almstead:
What was it?
Deborah Lloyd:
It was a zip up black top. That it was knitted so it skin tight. When you had the figure, it was rather fabulous, sort of hourglass. I have no idea where it is now. It's got lost in the many moves I've made over the years. But yeah, no, I didn't have a sense of where I was going. I just liked the adventures in the moment. I'd always reach. If there was an opportunity, I would take it. I wasn't scared of going to Italy for my first job and not being able to speak Italian. Never. It was before mobile phones. You had to book a telephone cabinet to be able to make a phone call to phone back to your parents.
Johanna Almstead:
And did you have to use a weird calling card or something? Because that's what I happened-
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh no, none of that.
Johanna Almstead:
... when I lived in Italy.
Deborah Lloyd:
We used to have to hit-
Johanna Almstead:
We had some weird calling card that you had to use.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, not even that. You'd book it in advance. You'd have to go there and go and speak to your parents on a Friday night. And getting paid was even funnier. They'd give me a check every month. And I'd have to look at the check and see where it came from. And I'd have to travel to that bank to get the cash for the check, and put it under my bed for the month. And that's how I lived. It was crazy.
Johanna Almstead:
I mean, I think there's just, it's funny, I go through this a lot, wishing that the world was a little bit more like it used to be in some ways. Yes, there's so many conveniences now and there's so many things, but I feel like there's nothing that builds character more than taking a leap like that. Saying, yes, figuring it out on the ground, probably having lots of frustrations, probably some tears, probably some terror. And getting through it. And being able to look back and be like, that was one of the most magical experiences of my life.
Deborah Lloyd:
I know. I know. Someone once said to me the worst experiences you have will be the best because you'll learn so much from them.
Johanna Almstead:
It's true.
Deborah Lloyd:
And yes, that came true. It's like when you were sort of stuck somewhere, and couldn't speak the language and you had to work it out. You couldn't just be sitting there three days later. You had to work it out. So yeah, you ended up with a lot of initiative. And I did some darn stupid things, I'm sure.
Johanna Almstead:
I mean, welcome to the club. That is not a new theme on this podcast of having done some dumb stuff in our past, but I kind of look at it all fondly now. We got here.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah, you do. They're stories.
Johanna Almstead:
We survived.
Deborah Lloyd:
You lived.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. What is something that you, what's an achievement, because you've had many, what is an achievement that you're the most proud of?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think learning to speak French. If at school you could hear me try and speak French, I remember the French exam and I had no clue. I think I'd moved schools at a certain point. So I went from one French class where I didn't understand anything because everybody else in my class had been doing it for two years before I got there. So I just couldn't pick it up. I went to somewhere else where they were learning a different way. So it just passed me by. I remember sitting in an exam, and just making pretty patterns down the multiple choice questions because I had no clue what they were talking about.
But then I remember going to France. Well, I started in Italy first. So Italy, again, not being good at languages, not being very musical. And I think the two are sort of connected. Going to Italy. And I could talk about a sleeve, I could talk about a dress, I could talk about fabric. And I knew how to order food. Yeah, no problem with food. But actually stringing a sentence together, forget it.
And then I lived in Italy for two years. And I thought when I got to France, right, no, you've got to learn the language. And so I remember thinking, how am I going to do this? Because I just for some reason I didn't have any ear for it and I couldn't learn in the regular way. And the company I was working for offered me lessons. And so I started these lessons and I found them so boring. I was like I'm never going to learn. I'll never going to learn these verbs or anything like that.
So I turned around to them and said, "Look, I think I'm going to be better. Can you get me somebody who I can just talk to? I can have a lesson where I've been in this meeting this week and this is what I need to explain and do. Can they just help me be relevant and talk about something that's interesting to me, that's useful to me?" And suddenly it started to click.
Johanna Almstead:
Interesting. You needed to be conversational, kind of. Like you needed to have-
Deborah Lloyd:
Conversational. Yeah. I still struggle. I can sort of read it. I can't write it particularly well. But I could speak it and I could speak it in the way a French person spoke it versus in a textbook, which was far more relevant really. And that really enabled my time in France because the fact you made an effort, people were much more willing to make the effort with you. And they really respected you. And I think that's why I loved my time in France so much was because I made the effort, and therefore other people made the effort as well.
Johanna Almstead:
And you can integrate yourself a little bit better, I think when you can speak the language. You're making me wish, I was like, I need to brush up on my French.
Deborah Lloyd:
But something you find really hard, when you conquer that. And that for me was really hard. And then to be able to get by. And by the end, I found that I was actually even dreaming in French. That's how far my French had come. When you were working there, you'd find other Brits who were there working in French fashion houses. And when we'd go out, we all had this weird special language because there were words in French that were more relevant to what you're trying to say than English. So you'd end up with this very funny sort of language that you both knew what you were talking about, but it expressed things in a more eloquent way across the language barriers. Yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
I love that you also figured out the way you needed to learn. I have this conversation with my kids a lot about, I have one kid who struggles with math, and I'm like, I think it's just your brain learns things differently. And I think it's amazing that you were brave enough and smart enough to advocate for yourself and be like, no, I'm going to learn this, I just need to learn it in a different way.
Deborah Lloyd:
You have to make it interesting. It's how do you make it interesting and explain it? It's not necessarily rocket science, but it's like how is it relevant to that person? How does it impact them? Therefore, it's useful, therefore why not learn it? So that's like teachers at school. There are certain subjects you love because those teachers drew you in and you were excited by it. So who knows? I might've been a geography teacher because I loved geography at school.
Johanna Almstead:
That would've been a little bit of a different path.
Deborah Lloyd:
I know. A slightly different path.
Johanna Almstead:
I can't really picture it.
Deborah Lloyd:
No. Nor can I now. But yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
So is there anything that you once believed about yourself that now, having had the career you've had, having had the life you've had, having the life that you have now that you since outgrown, that you don't believe about yourself anymore?
Deborah Lloyd:
I always felt it was about getting to the next point to achieve that goal. Now enjoy the journey. That's what I'm really enjoying. And I look back and I wish I'd enjoyed the journey in some of these things a little bit more versus the tunnel vision to get to the end point. I've always wanted to get there. And now I've calmed down enough to really enjoy that journey, enjoy the every day. Because there's so much richness in there. And actually when you get to the end point, you're like, okay, what's next? You've missed part of that adventure.
Johanna Almstead:
Do you think though, because I have a similar thought, I go back and I'm like, I missed a lot. I missed a lot. And I wonder, do you think if someone had told you back then, like, hey, why don't you try to slow down a little bit? Why don't you try to be more present? Why don't you try to enjoy this journey? Do you think you would've been able to hear it back then?
Deborah Lloyd:
Absolutely not. Just like tunnel vision. I have a goal. I'm getting there by hook or by crook. Yeah, it's crazy. And I don't know why. I was very hard on myself. I felt I had to do it. I remember my very first day of my job in Italy, and I got on the wrong bus and went the wrong way. And of course they wouldn't have minded, but I was so cross with myself. I thought I was so stupid. I was so mad with myself. Now I can laugh about it, but I just remember then being like this crazy fool on a bus. Couldn't speak Italian. Turn it around.
Johanna Almstead:
Wrong way. Wrong way.
Deborah Lloyd:
[inaudible 00:48:32].
Johanna Almstead:
Oh man. Those are moments, man, that make you who you are though, right? Those moments of-
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah, it's a pleasure now to look back and say, yes, I could have done things differently, but if I'd done them differently, I wouldn't have ended up in this position. So yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
Is there something that you said no to back then that you wish you had said yes to?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think I said yes to everything. I just said yes and kept on going. Yeah. In fact, like you asked me earlier. Yeah. I just said yes to these jobs that at the time didn't seem that particularly attractive, but became attractive. You made them attractive. So yeah, I just got on with it really. Yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. This is funny because I was thinking about the fact that there was a time in my life and yours that I could have answered this entire interview for you. That I would be writing the answers to the questions. So that's really funny. It feels like a full circle moment. Okay. We're now at the very, very exciting part of this interview, which is our light-
Deborah Lloyd:
The bit I'm dreading.
Johanna Almstead:
... and silly questions.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yes. Okay.
Johanna Almstead:
You're dreading it? Oh, it's funny. People get stressed by this.
Deborah Lloyd:
You know me. You know me. I like to do my homework. I like plans.
Johanna Almstead:
I know. I know. You're an A student and you like to prepare. So no pressure. Don't worry. No one's grading this. It's just fun. And I should have actually written them down. I didn't write them down. But I was thinking about your answers, what I think your answers were going to be to these. So I want to see if I was right for them.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, I'd love to know.
Johanna Almstead:
This will be funny. Okay. Favorite comfort food.
Deborah Lloyd:
Duck pancake rolls.
Johanna Almstead:
Oh, I was wrong.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, my word. You didn't see that coming, did you?
Johanna Almstead:
No. I would've said a curry.
Deborah Lloyd:
No, no, no. Duck pancake rolls. That's my-
Johanna Almstead:
Duck pancake rolls.
Deborah Lloyd:
.... little go-to when I... Crispy duck. The rolls, the plum sauce. Favorite.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, that sounds delicious. I don't think I ever had one of those.
Deborah Lloyd:
And to be honest, it's probably one of the only takeaways we can get here, between that and fish and chips. So that's the one I go for.
Johanna Almstead:
That's the one you go for. Other than being a fashion designer, what is something you are really good at?
Deborah Lloyd:
I've always loved color and putting colors together. Whether it's plants, whether it's in interiors, whether it's anything. I love color ambiances and color relationships. So something to do with color.
Johanna Almstead:
You're good at color. What is something you're really bad at?
Deborah Lloyd:
Singing. And I wish I was good at it. I'd love to be able to sing, but I can't.
Johanna Almstead:
I was just with someone yesterday actually who works with me on my team and who has the most spectacular voice. And I always forget that she has a spectacular voice. And there was music playing in the background, and she starts just under her breath singing along. And it is so gorgeous. And I was so jealous.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah. Oh, I love it. I'd love it. I'd love it. It's like even in a crowd, I can just hear myself, and I'm like, no.
Johanna Almstead:
Oh man. What is your favorite word?
Deborah Lloyd:
I love serendipity.
Johanna Almstead:
Ooh, that's a good one.
Deborah Lloyd:
There you go.
Johanna Almstead:
That's a good one.
Deborah Lloyd:
It's sort of summed up my life really. And I like serendipity. I like the fact that, yeah, by chance good things can happen.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Ina Garten has a book out that's like, be ready for the magic when it happens, or be ready for the love when it happens or something. And it's basically that idea of preparing yourself, but then being open to the serendipitous nature of the universe. I love that.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yes.
Johanna Almstead:
What is your least favorite food?
Deborah Lloyd:
Bell peppers. They are the devil's food.
Johanna Almstead:
Oh, I got that one right. Ding, ding, ding, ding.
Deborah Lloyd:
They will always be the devil's food.
Johanna Almstead:
I can't remember, I mean, how many restaurants we were in that we had to talk about the fact that bell peppers could come nowhere near your plate. Least favorite word.
Deborah Lloyd:
I think now it's got to be corporate. Or it's anything corporate speak. It just makes my hackles rise. Low hanging fruit, dial back. It's all of those things. I'm so happy to be-
Johanna Almstead:
Let's put a pin in it.
Deborah Lloyd:
... out of that world. Oh God. Please no.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, it's bad. And I hate when it's sometimes one will sneak out and I'm like, oh God.
Deborah Lloyd:
I know. Sorry. Back in your box.
Johanna Almstead:
Terrible. So now that your life is as different as you could possibly imagine to what your life was back then, what is your idea of a perfect day now?
Deborah Lloyd:
Outside. I love being outside. So the perfect day is getting up, quick little dog walk, out checking the fruit trees, seeing which flowers are out in the garden. Then it will be a nice little breakfast or something, probably from the garden. Then picking the flowers, arranging the flowers, doing a little bit of ceramics, a nice little lunch maybe at the pub. Dog walks. Easy.
I do love a trip to London though occasionally. I love a little hit of culture. Going off to see an exhibition. To see another garden somewhere to see what's happening. Different seasons. There's some beautiful gardens around here. So in the afternoon, it might be a trip to Iford Gardens or somewhere. And a nice lunch. They have a nice little lunch place. And then evening, very happy to just sit with a glass of wine out in the garden watching the sun go down.
Johanna Almstead:
Dreamy.
Deborah Lloyd:
Very simple. Very simple.
Johanna Almstead:
Sounds pretty amazing. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Deborah Lloyd:
Do your homework. You know me, I like to plan. It's not being in those situations where, whether you're going for a job or knowing what to expect, take some of the surprise, the bad surprise out of it. Know what you're doing. Research the people you're going to meet. So you know a bit about them. You're not going to show yourself up, but also it's showing respect for those people or the people that are spending time with you, that you've done your research on them and you know what they're about.
Johanna Almstead:
Yes. I feel like to our younger listeners out there, please take heed of this advice. There are so many times when I met with someone who wants career advice or who wants me to mentor them or whatever. And they don't know anything. They don't know anything about me. They don't know anything about my career. They haven't even done a basic Google search, or any of the companies that I've worked for. And I find it irritating when that happens.
Deborah Lloyd:
It does. Because if you're asking for help, what help you're asking for? What can that person give you if you know their history? Absolutely. Yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
And you're just not going to get as much out of that meeting because if you'd done an hour of research, you would have some really good questions, and you'd have some basis for what the conversation should be about. So I think that's very [inaudible 00:55:34].
Deborah Lloyd:
And that also goes back to what you asked me earlier about recruiting people and working with people and people on my team. It's the people who've done the research. They've had the respect to do the research, but also you know that they've put their time in. You can tell.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, that's a huge one. Okay. This one I did not have an answer for, so I can't wait to see what you say. If your personality were a flavor, what would it be?
Deborah Lloyd:
Ginger.
Johanna Almstead:
Oh, a little spicier than I expected.
Deborah Lloyd:
[inaudible 00:56:04]. It's quite, because the thing is ginger, it can be savory, it can be sweet, it can do lots of different things. So I feel that that's been my world. It's turning your hand to many different things. So I think ginger's a good one.
Johanna Almstead:
But always with a little zing.
Deborah Lloyd:
A little zing in there. Yes.
Johanna Almstead:
I like it. This is good. I would not have said that, so I love it.
Deborah Lloyd:
Where were you going? What were you going to say?
Johanna Almstead:
No, I couldn't think of one because-
Deborah Lloyd:
You didn't have one. You didn't have one.
Johanna Almstead:
... if anything, it was kind of going more like dessert. It was going more like a pavlova or a raspberry-
Deborah Lloyd:
Pavlova.
Johanna Almstead:
... pavlova or something. It was going like fluffy and colorful and rich and yummy, and I don't know, with a little crunch. I don't know. It was going that way, but I hadn't landed it.
Deborah Lloyd:
It could have been raspberry ripple, but yeah, I think ginger more.
Johanna Almstead:
I like ginger for you. I think that's a good one. Okay. It's your last supper. You're leaving the earth tomorrow. What are you having for dinner tonight?
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, it's got to be good. So I probably, glass of champagne, caviar, sour cream, blinis, just to start, just one of those. Then oysters. A little nice vinaigrette, mignon vinaigrette with that, little shallots. And then I think it would have to be a cote de boeuf. Cote de boeuf. The perfect French pommes frites, the little crispy matchstick ones. Love those. With a nice crisp green side with a French dressing on it. Very simple, but perfectly done as they will in France.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. So we have to be in Paris, I guess for your last meal.
Deborah Lloyd:
I think we might need to be in Paris. So I think dessert would probably be maybe there's something about those profiteroles with the hot chocolate sauce and the ice cream. Yeah. So maybe Paris somewhere.
Johanna Almstead:
And after the champagne, are you drinking anything different during this meal or are we drinking champagne throughout the meal?
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, no, no. I think transition, maybe Sancerre, something like that.
Johanna Almstead:
Okay. That sounds perfect. Can I come? What is a moment in your life when you've had to eat your words?
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, all the time. It happens all the time. I sometimes speak without thinking, and they're like, oh God, dial back. But I do have to say I am good at saying, look, I'm wrong. And that's something I've learned over the years. When I was younger, I'd never admit I was wrong. Now I've got to a point where I'm like, yeah, I'm wrong. Suck it up. I'm really sorry. I'm listening. And yeah, I'll take it back. Yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
That's growth.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah, it is. It's a huge amount of growth.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, it's hard. We always say stupid things. If you had to eat only one food for the rest of your life, don't worry about nutritional value, it'll keep you alive, what would you eat every day, all day?
Deborah Lloyd:
I'd probably do pad Thai. I love pad Thai. Pad Thai with shrimp. Yeah. I like these little... I think living in the countryside here with all this lovely English produce around me, I think it is sort of my dream goes something I can't have every day here.
Johanna Almstead:
Right, right. It's harder to get pad Thai in the countryside.
Deborah Lloyd:
Or sushi. Sushi's the other one. It's like [inaudible 00:59:23] exist on that as well. But I'm not going to trust the river fish I have running through here.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah, maybe not.
Deborah Lloyd:
No.
Johanna Almstead:
Maybe wait till you come to New York or go to Tokyo.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yes, exactly.
Johanna Almstead:
At least London to do sushi. Where's your happy place?
Deborah Lloyd:
My happy place is in the garden. If it's all going pear shape, I have to go out, be in nature, walk around. Yeah, that's a good thing.
Johanna Almstead:
So one of my questions is your go-to coping mechanism on a bad day. I mean, do you even have bad days anymore? It seems pretty dreamy.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh God, yeah. No, no.
Johanna Almstead:
You do.
Deborah Lloyd:
There's definitely bad days. The greenhouse, I'll have to go and plant something, pick something, cut something, do something. The greenhouse is the perfect place for that. Because as well, whatever the weather, you can do something in the greenhouse. So yeah.
Johanna Almstead:
So I imagine the answer to this question has changed over the years, but what do you wear now when you feel like you need to take on the world? I don't know if you ever feel like you need to take on the world anymore, but-
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, I do.
Johanna Almstead:
... you've taken on the world.
Deborah Lloyd:
I do. It'll be a Dior dress and diamonds.
Johanna Almstead:
There you go, girl. That came quick. Dior dress and diamonds. Can't go wrong. And heels.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah. I'm not so good in the heels anymore. It's finding those shoes, yes. It can be a struggle. But I know, a nice pair of military boots with a Dior dress is fine.
Johanna Almstead:
All right. I like that. Most memorable meal you've ever had.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh my goodness. It's really hard to pick one. It's always about the place. I mean, it can be really simple. I mean, I just love oysters in Cap Ferret on the side of the Arcachon Bay, just with a nice glass of rose, just simple.
Johanna Almstead:
Perfect.
Deborah Lloyd:
The simplest things, just where they're produced, which I adore.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. Okay. Dream dinner party guest list. You can have as many people as you want. I feel like we actually did this in our life for so long. We had to pull together dinners and figure out who had to sit next to each other. And we don't have to do anything for work, we just want to know who are you inviting to a dinner party at your house or it doesn't have to be at your house either. It could be wherever you want. Dead or alive.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh my god. It's going to be a lot of crazy women. It's all the women that you just want in there, and they're just going to be mad. Oh goodness.
Johanna Almstead:
All the crazy women. Okay. Which crazy women?
Deborah Lloyd:
Okay. I like, I'm trying to think. Oh, you've got me on this one.
Johanna Almstead:
Okay. Are they like artists? Are they musicians?
Deborah Lloyd:
I think there'd be a mix of artists. So whether it's Frida Kahlo, Marilyn Monroe, it's sort of like some women behaving badly. Amelia... It's all these women who've done things. And it would be a list of women who've done things a little bit differently that aren't your normal, normally gone down the same path as everybody else. Karen Blixen, a little bit of adventurous is really-
Johanna Almstead:
I like it.
Deborah Lloyd:
Amelia Earhart.
Johanna Almstead:
Amelia Earhart. We've got Marilyn Monroe. We've got Frida Kahlo.
Deborah Lloyd:
Kahlo.
Johanna Almstead:
Karen Blixen.
Deborah Lloyd:
Blixen. Who else I'm going to have? I do love the actress... Oh, you've really got me on this one.
Johanna Almstead:
Really?
Deborah Lloyd:
I haven't... I know, I know.
Johanna Almstead:
You didn't do your homework.
Deborah Lloyd:
I didn't do my homework on this one.
Johanna Almstead:
Busted.
Deborah Lloyd:
Didn't see this one coming.
Johanna Almstead:
Okay. Which actress? Who just said you loved.
Deborah Lloyd:
I like Allison Janney. I think she's-
Johanna Almstead:
Oh, I love her.
Deborah Lloyd:
I mean, recently she just turned up with those legs in that tuxedo jacket. Yeah, she looked fantastic.
Johanna Almstead:
I love her. She's a bawdy woman. I like it. She's not afraid to speak her mind.
Deborah Lloyd:
Well, I'm going to come off this call and I will send you my ladies because-
Johanna Almstead:
Send you a list.
Deborah Lloyd:
I'll do my-
Johanna Almstead:
I'll record a separate little episode.
Deborah Lloyd:
... homework. See, hadn't done my homework. Didn't prepare, you see. It all goes pear shaped.
Johanna Almstead:
But it's interesting that you brought up those women. This is not a question I had planned to ask you, but I feel like I want to now, is did you ever think of yourself as a feminist? Because you paved pathways for women behind you. You worked with strong women who you admired, and you luckily didn't have to work in too much of a boys club. But did you ever think of yourself as a feminist?
Deborah Lloyd:
Not really. I just sort of got on with it and just didn't like taking no for an answer. Actually, when you say I hadn't worked with a lot of men, boys club, boys club in Paris was terrible. My first job there, it was you'd know when the bosses had arrived because you'd smell the cigar smoke and you'd hear the arguing. And I was like, "Are they always arguing like this?" And said, "Well, no, that's the way they communicate." And it was. It was the things that you were asked to do. And yeah, it was very toxic masculinity, but you sort of got on with it, and I got out of it what I needed to get out of it.
But no, I didn't really think about that. I just sort put my head down and did what I wanted to do. And just, that's why I love working in America is it didn't feel there was a huge, you just had to break through. I remember getting to Burberry before Rose Marie Bravo arrived, and they just sent a woman home for wearing trousers to work.
Johanna Almstead:
What?
Deborah Lloyd:
That's how bad it was. And it was like-
Johanna Almstead:
And this was the '90s?
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah. This was the '90s and just things were happening. So I had seen these things happening. So seeing like a Rose Marie Bravo coming in and deciding that there shouldn't be a class system for where you sat to have your lunch because there were different rooms for different levels or pay grades basically. She came in over the weekend and got them to break them all down. And the first day for lunch, she was in the front of the queue for lunch.
The things that you used to see happen, there'd be in a meeting and then you'd have the tea lady would come in with a trolley with tea, and she'd have plain biscuits and chocolate biscuits. The men got the chocolate biscuits, and the girls, if you were lucky, you maybe got a basic biscuit. Yes.
Johanna Almstead:
What?
Deborah Lloyd:
I know.
Johanna Almstead:
That's insane.
Deborah Lloyd:
These things happened. So seen there, sort of done it. So you have seen it go horribly wrong, and you've seen the toxicity of that. So I guess it was sort of there, and I saw what I was trying to escape from. And I think that's why working with these fantastic teams, like all the girls, Kate Spade, we could see why it was all women, it's like these fantastic women who could conquer the world. It was just the most magical and amazing team that I got to work with there. And it was like, yeah, the women could do it better.
Johanna Almstead:
They really could. They really could.
Deborah Lloyd:
Yeah, they could. They could do it better and they do it many different things at once. Yes. Multitasking.
Johanna Almstead:
All the things better all at once. And my last, I'm sad that this is over, but my last question for you is what is one thing that you know for sure right now today in this moment?
Deborah Lloyd:
I'm happy that I've gone through life just having my own adventure and not going through life and saying never say never. It's like just taking every opportunity as it comes, every day as it comes, making the most of it. You only get one life, so you've got to make the most of it.
Johanna Almstead:
Yeah. I think you are doing a pretty good job of that. Seems like it.
Deborah Lloyd:
I'm trying. I'm trying.
Johanna Almstead:
Well, this has been amazing on so many levels and has been really a meaningful hour with you because, I'm going to get a little bit weepy, I think, you believed in me at a time that was really hard. And we had lots of adventures together and it feels really, really nice to be back here with you today. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. And we will go and do that dinner in Paris.
Johanna Almstead:
Yes, please. Just like maybe don't die the next day.
Deborah Lloyd:
No, I'm not going anywhere.
Johanna Almstead:
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Deborah Lloyd:
Oh, you're welcome. So lovely to see you.
Johanna Almstead:
Ooh, that one was a little emotional. I got myself a little worked up there. It was very nostalgic for me to spend this last hour with her. So thank you for spending the hour with us. I hope you feel inspired. I hope you feel excited. I hope you feel challenged to find your passion and follow your passion if that feels good to you.
If you haven't done so already, please follow us on social media. We are @eatmywordsthepodcast on TikTok and Instagram. If you are new to the show, please, please, please follow or subscribe to the show, depending on which media player you're listening on. There's usually a plus sign that says follow or subscribe. If you listen to this and you think someone you know might enjoy it, please share it with them. You can text it to them, you can share it over social media. Every little bit helps, and every new listener helps us grow this platform. So thank you from the bottom of my heart and I will catch you on the next one. This podcast has been created and directed by me, Johanna Almstead. Our producer is Sophy Drouin, our audio editor is Isabel Robertson, and our brand manager is Mila Bujna.