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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Hi everyone. Welcome to Red Ledger. I'm Denalee Bell and Tyler Bell is joining me from Arizona, Patty to talk about our testimonies in Jesus and how we were practicing Christians, or I guess I was, and we're gonna talk to Tyler about if he was, but still being deceived by the New age, by the cult and our journey out of that.
So thank you, uh, for joining us. I hope that you can learn something for us, if not for you, if for. People you love and know. So how's it going Ty? It's going good. How are you doing? Good. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit 'cause I just said something in that intro, um, about how I was a Christian and still deceived.
So I think that's a part of the problem is people think that all Christians just know everything. The minute they walk into their relationship with God, the minute they're saved. Unfortunately it didn't work that way for either of us. Is that correct for you? Yeah, and I, I would say even that some people have long periods of time before, uh, or between like salvation and sanctification.
You were dabbling in the new age, right? Yeah, yeah. Were you a Christian? So I've kind of talked about my story a bit on here, um, where I grew up Christian and I got baptized when I was like eight years old. And I truly think I believed at that moment. I'm a person that doesn't really believe that you can lose your salvation, but at the same time, I don't know if.
Every time somebody says that they're saved is actually saved. And it's kind of hard for me to kind of understand whether or not I was truly saved or like really even believed because I was so kind of with the wind about like what I thought about the world and I was just young, so I didn't really.
Think or I wasn't really committed to like a lifestyle with Jesus. Um, however, I do think that I was probably saved, I just wasn't really committed to, um, obedience. However, I did step into more of a new age situation. I think this is the confusing part for people. So it's confusing for me sometimes when we get saved, it means that we are saying, Hey, Jesus, you're my Lord.
I repent. I'm gonna turn away from sin, and I look to you and I believe that you died for me, that you were resurrected three days later. Right. Yeah. This is what being saved is and I have faith in all of that and that you, you are, God. I think people also take outta context the word repent, and they always kind of think it means like, oh, now I just gotta stop being like sinning, right?
Or else I'm not gonna be saved. Mm-hmm. Where it's like literally me, it's metanoia, right? It really means to change your mind. So I really think that salvation happens in the moment when you repent from unbelief to belief. And then after that you contin, you are imbued with the Holy Spirit, and then he continues to sanctify and, and, uh, and work on you if you're willing to let him.
I do believe you were, you were saved. And I do believe I was saved. Yeah. And I do believe I was deceived. Mm-hmm. So part of the deception is I thought I had to earn my salvation. So every time I sinned. I thought, oh, I gotta be saved again. And I'm praying that this prayer over and over and over, not understanding that there is a sanctification process.
You know, I, I would probably be what they called a backslidden Christian. Mm-hmm. At least three times. Three times. Yeah. And God patiently chase after me each time picked me up and turned me around again. Mm-hmm. And I, I think that that happens. And I, you know, I don't wish that on anybody. I wish that you understand who your savior is immediately, and you have reassurance of your faith and you know how loved you are.
Mm-hmm. And you get in the word, that's my dream for everybody, but it's not everybody's path similar to you, is that I was trusting in my ability to be good, to be able to get me in a positive afterlife. And I don't really think that's trusting in Jesus. In what? And I don't think that's the trusting in the gospel.
I, I agree. So now that we kind of got that there, because I, I think as we talk about these new age beliefs, um, I think people like to throw out the word fake Christian, like when you get something wrong. 'cause even I get stuff wrong on this podcast. And I am a Christian, I've been a Christian for a very long time, but, but sometimes I get things wrong and I've been deceived and I, I want to believe that I'm walking really closely with God right now and that he does correct me, but sometimes.
Sometimes my emotions might override or my flesh overrides and I think that still happens, but I get corrected and, um, I love that the Holy Spirit lives within us when we get saved so that we can be gently corrected that that correction is love. Let's talk a little bit about your deceived era. Yeah, you were a Christian.
I mean like you were a kid that wore Jesus rule shirt to school. You were like all in, you believed you loved Jesus. Yeah. Like I, I didn't even actually know what to do with you 'cause I like, how do I help support this kid? 'cause I didn't even know. I know. You always tell me it and like, I don't really remember a lot of it.
Like, I remember some of like my boldness for it, but I don't remember a lot of it. Um, I think as I got older. And kind of got a little bit more of the taste of the world. I kind of stopped kind of having a lot of, I guess like the, the passion. And I would still say that like I, I, I claimed Jesus, like I claimed, like I was saved by him or like I was a Christian.
However, I didn't really, I never really read the Bible. Like I only read a couple of the stories from like a children's bible when I was young. Hmm. So I didn't really know what that meant to be like an actual Christian, and I didn't even know like who Jesus was or like what he was asking of me or, or his followers or, or any of that.
I think I, I would like to see myself as a little bit more of a compassionate person. So, you know, when there are harder topics or harder controversies that I guess really conflict with how modern culture is progressing right now. Um, I think that I would be. I would lean more in favor about how people thought of me and I was a little bit more, uh, prone to changing my actions or my thoughts or who I was really to get other people to like and validate me.
With that, I kind of started hanging around, you know, just. Different, kind, different cats and started exploring different things. And um, I really did explore like a lot with the drugs at a certain point, um, like in high school and like, um, coming outta high school that I, um, really kind of stopped caring about like being right.
And I just really cared more about being like, or being righteous, but cared more about being like edgy or cool or accepted or when I left home I went to music school and like I was really on my own for the first time and I started to. And, and TikTok was like a lot more prevalent in starting to like become like super duper popular.
And I really kind of started to fall into like the deep rabbit hole of like new age. And, um, I found some interesting teachers and people teaching you a bunch of different like ideologies and thoughts that. Uh, aligned with like being accepted by the world, you know, and, and, um, everything that I thought like I wanted to be right, and, and morally just with what the world decides though.
'cause this is kind of where I got. Pulled into it. I wanted to be open-minded. 'cause that was considered a good virtue, right? Yeah. Be so open-minded, like, well, I need to be open-minded to this. I think it can be, it just depends on the context. Like am I open-minded about my moral system, which is Christianity and what Jesus says like the Lord of my life, or.
Am I being open-minded about somebody might not be who I think they are. You know what I mean? It, it's, it's too, there's, there's so many different ways to like split that one open. I go both ways on this 'cause I'm like, well, you have to be open-minded to even believe that there's a God Yeah. To, to even receive the gospel.
Right. To even hear him. To hear his voice. To know his voice. So you have to be open to a lot of things. So it, it would be a requirement. Yeah, you have to continue to be open-minded about Jesus being, right, right. Like, like we were saying about repentance, it's changing your mind. So as you sanctify, like you continue to change your mind from, oh, I don't agree with this anymore because Jesus said so and like he's God.
And I agree with him even if I'm wrong. So this world that you were watching and looking at, you started to follow a little bit and yet intrigued you. Is that correct? I, I hadn't read the Bible, so I, and I was always interested about spiritual things because I, I really did believe spiritual things happened.
Um, and like. It was very like adjacent to Christianity. It was just like everything but Jesus, it felt like, like it was like Jesus kind of got this right, but this is what it was really about. But I mean, to what standard, how? How would you even know? Like is, is it just based on your feelings that this, it's not really Jesus, I don't know, whatever.
Well, I think what happens for me, even in that situation before I started reading the Bible, was I had an idea of who I thought Jesus would be and what I thought love was. I'm like, well, this is. What a loving Jesus would do. Yeah. This is what a loving God would do. Yeah. Not understanding that love includes a lot of things, including protection, truth, discipline.
Yeah. I think you and I have both leaned at being people pleasers for a while in our, like a time period in our life. And I think a lot of apologies for modeling that for you in case you guys haven't gathered this. This is my son. Yeah. It, it's all good, man. Um, I think like when you try to people please people that you are ver like.
Even I still do it sometimes is it's so easy and like it's, it's a subconscious reaction to like, just affirm what anybody's saying all the time, you know, just completely affirm everything. Um, and I think that, that like. Affirm anything without the truth can be dangerous. And I think that there's like a way to support people without like beating them over the head with the Bible.
But, um, there's also a way to, to, to stand in truth and not just agree with lies all the time, but still speaking truth gently. Yeah. So as I was, um, really diving deep and exploring this, um, I came across a. S spiritual practice called astral projection, and I had only kind of heard about it, but um, some of the people were kind of explaining to me that astral projection was basically, you know, separating your soul or spirit from your physical body to go, um, I guess learn more and acquire more information.
The idea is that you leave your physical body, is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. You leave your physical body to go, I guess. Um, I mean, like everybody had different experiences, like some people found other people to talk to and like shepherd them into, um, the deeper secret truths of the universe.
However, with New age, you never get to the bottom of it. It's just this eternal rabbit hole of deep digging and never finding anything and, um, always trying to be God yourself. Uh. But I, I was just so curious about it. I was like, wow, people are having like super, like spiritual experiences that, and this sounds like real, like I haven't really heard of many Christians doing spiritual experiences because I just wasn't in that world.
So I saw a video that was basically, um, giving you a guideline on how to astral project. So let's go back to that, what you just said. So it was through meditation. So this is tricky for people. Because God tells us to meditate on the word, but this isn't that kind of meditation. No. It's more of like an Eastern meditation where you like empty yourself out.
Yes. Instead of filling yourself up with the Holy Spirit, that kind of meditation is dangerous. Yeah. And um, not what God is talking about when he says meditate on his word day and night. Yeah. I was, I was really freshly awake, so I wasn't really tired, so I know I wasn't like dreaming this experience. Um mm-hmm.
I. Did this meditation and then I woke up in my bed, but I couldn't really move. It was almost like a sleep paralysis. Um, and I, whenever I tried to like, reach out of my body, it started to like vibrate really heavily. Like, like almost like my arm was falling asleep. Um. And, uh, I, I've, earlier in this podcast, I kind of said I experimented with drugs.
Um, but there was like a lot of things that kind of reminded me of what, like acid felt like, or I guess like the visualizations of it. Anyways, when I was in the zone, this vibrating zone is what I call it, um, I can't, I couldn't really like, reach out without it vibrating more intensely and, um. I started to get scared 'cause I was like, this is like your, without your body vibrating more intensely.
Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Like I would look around and I wouldn't see my arms. So it like, okay. I like, I was vibrating, like my arms were pulling outta my body basically. Um, and I, I was sketched out. I was like, nah. Were you on drugs? No. No. I wasn't on drugs and on drugs, I mean, early in the morning.
So I wasn't really like, I, you know, I, I like, I experimented, but I wasn't that crazy. Um, yeah. So I kinda went into another like sleep paralysis thing where I couldn't even move at all. And I was like, okay, so this is even weirder and I don't like this even more, it's even more sketchy. Um, but then I got to another point where I could go back into the vibrate zone.
Um, and at this point I was like, I'm already here. Might as well just go explore it. Um, so I'd reached and pulled myself out basically, and it like vibrated and I was walking around my apartment at the time and, um, this. The, like, all the folds of the clothes were exactly as they were. Like all the dishes were exactly where they were.
It was like literally me walking around my apartment and everything kind of was like, it was almost like, it was like a really foggy day. Um, the actual day was really sunny, but in this different realm, that astral realm or whatever it was, um, it was like a lot more foggy. It was really hazy and kind of gray and muted.
I made a bad decision to go walk to the mirror. Um, in my apartment and I was looking at it and then my eyes started to roll and my face started to contort and I started getting really, really scared. Um, and I was like, something wrong is happening. And I kind of like zoomed back into my body, um, and woke up and I was like freaking out.
I was like, what just happened? Um, I called some, like friends that were like into New Age at the time and they were just kinda like, whoa, that's crazy bro. But like, didn't really give me much, um. Like feedback other than like, that sounds nuts. Like who goes through that? And, um, I understand that this is like a crazy story and not everybody's gonna like, believe it.
Um, I don't really have like a reason to lie, but, well, it doesn't really matter. Uhhuh, the, the point is, I guess I, it doesn't really matter if somebody believes it or not. It is your experience, I guess. What I wanna impress upon people is one, this was a spiritual experience. It did happen, you know, and it's dangerous.
God specifically tells us not to do this, not to mess in this world. By the grace of God, I got sucked in back into my body without like getting. Possessed or something weird, you know? Um, I continue to live probably some of like the darkest moments of my lives for the next three years though, however, so the Bible has verses specifically that tells us not, that discourages these practices like divination, necromancy seeking knowledge from the dead.
Big ones in Deuteronomy. Yeah. We don't wanna open these doors for a reason. Yeah. And my first question is, you opened a door. What do you think that manifested in your life? Uh, a lot of bad things. Um, I definitely had probably the darkest three years of my life after that kind of just kept making bad, selfish decisions that would just continue to fill me with shame.
And I think that that shame has kind of been like a weak point in me, and that's why I'm so like, um. Strong about like free grace, salvation, but, uh, because like it's the opposite of shame, it's grace, and I think shame was always kinda like a weak point. And, um, later along that got illuminated to me and I, I was able to kind of work towards, you know, a relationship with Jesus that really pulled me out of like this, um, weird spiral.
But it was really weird. I had, um, I had such a weird skewed perspective on it. I really saw, like, this is not really being a bad thing, even though it, like my eyes were rolling and like my face was contorting in the mirror and I was scared. I wasn't really like framing it like a bad thing. I just thought it was like a cool spiritual experience that I could talk about to people, to get validation, for people to think I was special or something.
And I was like, wow, this, so I'm gonna go tell everybody about it now. Um, and I didn't like, people were just like, whoa, that's nuts. And like, um, I. I had a friend, um, that tried it and with their friend, and they had like, kind of maybe like a more of a demonic encounter, um, where it was sketchy and like they were like, we shouldn't do this anymore.
So it's interesting though, like, like, I like how I was kind of almost like evangelizing for like this weird, newish thing that was not a positive experience for me, but I, okay. That brings me another question, so, mm-hmm. You opened doors and your life didn't go well for, for about three years. I remember you being extremely depressed.
Yeah. Yeah. Is that true? Oh, uh, okay. I was in a, um, extreme shame spiral. I mean, really, like I, I was such a victim and, um, I, I kept making bad decisions and just beating myself up and just keep getting depressed and pressed and felt like I couldn't even function. Yeah. I, I guess what it looked like from my perspective is you were allowing more and more dark things into your life.
Like, I shouldn't say the people were dark, but they, they were, you were allowing people who were outwardly okay with some pretty dark things. Yeah. I guess I, like, I just kind of like lacked a lot of discernment that I do have now that God gave me thank God. Mm-hmm. Um, I was just really a lot more so outside of the political term liberal and even in the political term liberal, um, in both ways with like who I surrounded myself with.
I was working at a brewery, um, and like. There was, there were some Christians there, but I didn't really hang out with them. Like I hung around a lot of like atheists and dated a lot of atheists and um, like dark people, uh, and like really affiliated myself with like dark looks like, like, um. I'm not saying like if you wear like black all the time, like it's a bad thing, but I just, you know, right.
I, I was just kind of like caught up with the, like, aesthetic of it. I didn't really care about surrounding myself with people that had like similar values. Like I, again, I kept like claiming Christ and claiming Jesus, but I never really, really, I never really followed him. I never really knew him, um, until I was.
I, I met my current wife and we decided to start going to church, and then my whole life flipped right side up. I mean, you, you did that on your own, so you weren't really seeking the validation, right? Yeah. In that moment. Yeah. Like what, what do you think drew you to that? I think I've always been like an extremely curious person.
Um, like mm-hmm. With music, I am like. Kind of obsessed, like, like with like gear. Mm-hmm. And, and things like that. I'm always like in, in learning and trying to get better. Um, I think I just didn't know where to put like, a lot of my curious energy. And then when I was young, um, younger I guess like, and, and I first started experimenting with drugs I went to mm-hmm.
Um, hallucinogens to kind of like. Because everybody said that like if you continued to like explore it, you'd find better answers. I've heard like people talk about it all the time and I was just naturally really curious about it. And then I think the curiosity of like the spiritual realm, um, titled drugs.
Okay. What answers were you looking for? I don't know, I was just curious. I mean, I, I wasn't necessarily like a direct answer. It was more so just like, I wanna, um. I just want to know more. And I think that's like the big, like pitfall of new age is that it's always more knowledge is you always gotta keep committing to deeper, darker things to be a, a higher level of new age.
And, and it just never gets deep. It's, it's an always like a big unanswerable thing, um, in, in that thing until I came to Jesus. So at that time, did you feel like you were accessing something good? Or helpful. Um, and did, did it feel dark even in the beginning? Did you kind of just know something was not right or like, I think I was just so deceived, um, that I, I didn't know any better.
I just didn't know, I didn't think about it. Maybe de I think deep down I kind of knew something was wrong, but I, I was totally deceived and willing to write that off to be, um, I had this experience and I'm. Searching for deeper answers and I might find them, I dunno, I don't know what I'm looking for.
Maybe a piece, um, of like salvation that I'm gonna have a positive experience when I die. I mean, I think like as a 20-year-old, like I just wasn't really. Like I was a deep kid, but I hadn't, it was like surf. It was like fake deep almost, you know what I mean? Sometimes. And I think like the, my ability to comprehend the things that I do now and like the actual deepness of like the, of morality of of, of God, my relationship with Jesus and like who he is and his love and his grace, and, um.
That like I, I just kept thinking that I was like leveling myself up in a weird way and, and I had control and like, especially like manifestation and stuff, it's like, it, it's a great selling thing like point, right? Like you can just wish for everything you want. But I mean, I never got anything I wanted and I just like thought I could.
Did you ever encounter like another entity or an outside being or spirit during those experiences? I think I've just had some. Kind of darker encounters with some people where I was like, this feels like wrong. That, um, I guess like some of the people like I connected with, um. And kinda like gave myself to where I, I noticed darker moments, um, where I, I felt like some discernment, but it wasn't like enough to like change what was going on immediately.
Um, I kinda lived in those scenarios for a bit, but, um, uh, eventually I just, I just kinda left and, and I, after talking to you about it, and you're, you were so patient with me through a lot of this 'cause, you know, I just, like, I dated a lot of people that were not, um. That were definitely not Christian and like were, you know, maybe Okay.
With like occult practices and stuff like that. And, um, I just didn't really see like the harm in it. I didn't really understand it 'cause I was just so deceived. We're in an interesting timeline. Yeah, because you know, when I was growing up, I'm obviously older than you. Um. It wasn't normal to just have these conversations and talk about these things.
I think we had like a Ouija board like that kids played with, and that was probably the extent of it for Yeah, for any normality. So it feels like we're living in a time where this is just a little bit norm normal. Yeah. And there's like more language for it now, so it's easier to, 'cause a lot of this is like, it starts with like an idea in your head and like that's, it's like the danger, it's like when David, right, uh, he was looking over his city when he was supposed to be at war.
Something caught his eye and he entertained the thought. You know, Bathsheba caught his eye and he entertained the thought. And I think like, you can, like lust after, not in like the, like the sexual way, but like you can lust after like the idea of like power of the idea of um, like knowing deep secrets that nobody else knows about the world and like, like stroking your ego basically.
Right? And um Right. Entertaining, like the idea of it. And there's so much more language that it's so much easier, I think, to entertain the idea of it. And then there's so many people. Um, that have been church hurt or. In similar situations like me that just ended up rejecting Jesus. Um, and, and people that like, I would trust in like the media, like that I would trust.
I, I didn't know who they are. I don't know who they are, you know what I mean? I just like had, I was like, oh, if, I mean, if this person's, you know, practicing these. Things like it, it doesn't really feel all that wrong. But, um, I guess I had no idea about like history either, like the history of the world, I only knew about my 20 years on earth and like was very biased towards it.
So I guess, um, like the more I learned about it and the more, um, and how Christ centered Society was before I was alive, really, um, I had no idea about this, this big turn towards new age in this generation. So how would you describe your relationships during this time? So were they impacted, like even with your friends, your family?
I was looking to be like accepted in like a new city, right? A new state where I didn't know anyone. I mean, when I look back I just think cringe all the time 'cause I was always trying to be somebody I wasn't to fit in. Um, and I think it was just like one of those experiences where I just wasn't who I was at all.
But like I always kind of found like friends around me. But like the quality of friendships kind of started. To decline a little bit and I started acting out, uh, in my relationships, whether it be romantic or not. Um, I started to just really, I think with like new age, you can get pretty prideful. Um, I started to, I guess, kind of like betray people a little bit.
Um, and I think it was like more unintentional, like I could do no wrong, but when it would happen, like I do have like a sense of compassion where if I hurt somebody. Like it would, I would be like, oh my gosh, like, I just like messed up and then instead of like looking at the other person, I would turn inside and shame myself and punish myself to make myself feel better about how I was at the time.
Because I felt like if I punished myself, it would make it equal or like right. I, I would have right. Standing with that person, you know, or myself even. Was there anything specific that made you go okay. I don't wanna do this anymore. There, there was a relationship where I was dating somebody that was like, definitely, maybe more like a culty.
Um, and I, it ended and I started to see somebody that was like Christian, like, kind of Christian, but Christian. Um, and I started seeing like, oh wow, like. This is completely different. Like somebody that like knows the Bible more than me, I don't, I don't know anything about any of this, you know? And like was there a dark versus light feeling?
Yeah. Yeah. I could just feel like, oh, this is like a better path for me. So like during that time mm-hmm. I was so desperate for like validation and like. I was so girl crazy and like bent outta shape about it. It was crazy. Um, but like I was like, this is the first time that like, in a long time that I dated somebody that has like somewhat of a similar belief system as me and like grew up a similar way that I did that.
Like there was just much more of like, um. Things in common that I was like, whoa, this feels right. And then I just lost myself in that person because I think I started to idolize that person and like the way that that person made me feel, not realizing that that was probably just Jesus being reflected in them.
Exactly. I had all the language for new age. I had none of the language for Christianity, none of the understanding for it. So. Um, when I met my current wife, Nicole, um, we, or not, not current, my only wife, um, we, um, we forever and ever. She was kind of in a similar place, maybe not as like extreme as me. Right.
We, we decided to go to a church. She's a good girl. She's a good girl. Yeah. She, she grew up in a, a good community and we, we just started going to church and our lives radically changed. I mean, I, I didn't know the Bible. Um. And I feel like I have like a decent understanding of like, what's going on when it comes to like the Bible and theology, which is cool and exciting.
Um, but yeah, I, and like out, even outside of like knowledge, um, like my, my wellbeing is so much different. Like I don't go to shame. I like, or what is James said that in the Rich Living Podcast, um, where they talk about finances and he was, oh yes, he was saying how shame is the worst motivator. Um, and like, it's so simple, right?
But like. Like, shame motivating me is not going to produce any good fruit at all. Like it never does. And it never has. Um, and this goes to like people with like addiction, and this is kind of a sidetrack, but like grace is the best motivator by comparison, you know? And I think like learning about God's grace and I think a part of that.
His love. Yeah, his love and like his forgiveness. I think that's like, I have like a particular asphyxiation for salvation, um, in like soteriology. It just like matters to me a lot and I think like it's an important part that we get right. Um, but like I, I just really kind of connect to that theology and that, um, that study.
What, what is that, what study is that soteriology the study of salvation? Because I've experienced such depths of shame, like, and, and, and have been such like a. Like gnarly person once upon a time and it like gone through all these things, you know what I mean? That like, it, it, it, like, there there's real like grace and forgiveness there.
It isn't a counterfeit. You met your, um, new wife. Mm-hmm. And you guys started to go to church and you began to know who Jesus was. I remember, yeah. A big change in you. Um, 'cause you go to Pillar church. Yeah. And Preston was doing a series about. Um, how God is your friend. Yeah. It was the friend of God. Yep.
Um, and man like. He went through like all of like the big characters in the Bible, but like the way that he was able to, um, express like how much God loves you, um, using scripture like, and, and like the, the how romantic of a relationship God wants with you. Um, and like how intimate and how deep and fire it can go.
And under, like starting to like, I guess ponder on the eternal love of him, like something that we couldn't even measure. I, it just really started to, to wake something up inside of me where I was like, oh my gosh, like now that I've really accepted that this is like the real reality that we live in. And I, and I really chose to.
RI guess repent, right? Turn to like a sincere belief in Jesus. It, it, it was just, it was mind boggling. Like I couldn't even, I couldn't even understand like that's who God was. I had no understanding about who God was. And I feel like I had always, uh, misrepresented him to myself and allowed other people to misrepresent him to me.
So as you left, um, this world and turned towards Jesus, did you find as you were started walking closer and close, closer to Jesus? Did you find that you were having any attacks spiritually? Yeah. Um, I mean we have like a whole podcast on it, but, um, like certain vices that I had became a lot harder to get rid of, uh, specifically like porn.
Interesting. Um, and weed. And um, like if I'm gonna be completely transparent, like I still kind of struggle with it, not in the same way that I used to before, but like, it's almost weird. It's like, 'cause there is like a surrender that happens. Like, I'm gonna give my life to you, Jesus. Right. Um. But it's not perfect because we have flesh that fights against us all the time.
Like not trying to create an excuse for my sin, but it's, it, it is hard to like to, to feel like, oh, I can't have these things that I once depended on, that I could have gone without for such a long time. You know, that wasn't really a problem before. Now I'm reaching to these things to, to, for comfort instead of God, because I'm.
I don't know, like my, my mind is, uh, a battlefield, right? That's the war within. Do you feel set free though? Like, you know, there's Yeah. Do you know there's freedom from that? Yeah. Yeah. There, there is freedom. Yeah. For sure. Um, and like I experience it, like there, there's times where I go like long periods of time without it, and then sometimes, you know, we, we fall back a little bit and, um.
Yeah. But you know, I just pick up and keep going, you know, and, and it gets better and better over time. It's not like this straight linear journey sometimes. Like some, I mean like, and, and I praise God for some of the people that just quit and it's nothing. Right. That's so cool. Yes. Um, I love that. It gives me, yeah.
You know, I struggle with some things myself, like even. My time on social media mm-hmm. Or things that God is just directing me away from. Yeah. Um, Twitter in particular, I go through the same thing. Yeah. So I totally understand where I do really good for a period of time, but then something major happens in the news.
Yeah. And I'm back in that place. Yeah. It's not always like a, like a linear journey for somebody, you know? Um, and sometimes it is. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's just everybody's experience is gonna be different. Everybody's journey with God's gonna look different and thank God he gives us so much grace and mercy that Yeah.
He picks us back up and Yeah. And it's not that we want to be in those sins. It's not that we want to be in those, um, not free from those. Mm-hmm. It's just, it sometimes. I'm just amazed, like some, like my mom, I think she just quit drinking one day and never drank again. Yeah. And, um, your, your brother as well.
Yeah. Like, they just, it's just not part of their life and so Cool. They don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, so cool. When you said freedom earlier, I think like one of the big freedoms that I had was really from like the shame and, um. Like the, the constant fear that I think I was always living in. I feel like I can rest in him and know that he's gonna finish his good work in me and I don't have to continue to strive to be better so I can be better in the eyes of somebody else.
You know, I, I can, I can only just look for his validation and I can, there's, there's freedom in that. You know, I will say kinda when I'm traveling in this area of life where I. Sometimes relapse, I guess what you could say. And I, I'll go into it in another video, but, um, I think, 'cause I used to do this with food, right?
Food used to be my comfort, but I just, it just isn't anymore. I don't go to it for that. Yeah. It just, it didn't happen instantly, but it did happen over time and it was kind of this progression where like. Oh, I don't need this for this. Oh, I still do this. But now I don't feel the guilt. Now I don't feel the shame.
Yeah. And then pretty soon I'm just not doing that anymore and I, it's been months and I'm like, oh, that's not really a thing for me anymore. This was years of struggle. Years. Yeah. Like decades. Decades. I guess I just want people to know, like sometimes these things don't happen overnight. They can, yeah.
You can be delivered from it in a second. Yeah. But sometimes it takes a minute to unwind. The learning that we've had in our brain. Yeah, yeah. You know, the reason why we're doing that, the, the habit of it, even the dependencies, like it's, it's, it's, it's repenting of your dependencies, right? Like you're changing your mind about it and like where you go to depend on, I go to this to depend, I depend on this for, to, to feel okay or to relieve myself of boredom or relieve myself of.
Just sitting in whatever I need to be sitting in. Right. And instead of like with God. Yeah. And sometimes I don't, I I honestly, sometimes I just don't wanna go to him and I don't know why. Yeah. I can't tell you why. I think it's saying to me, it could be my, it's probably my flesh. I can feel God calling me like all the way through it, uhhuh.
And I'm ignoring him all the way through it. And like, it's so hard to, um, like again, like some. As much as like, I feel like I've overcome shame, um, like sometimes it's still like, okay, God talked to me all the way through that whole experience that I just did in, on the route to sending and entertaining the idea.
And I ignored him the whole time, and I knew it as I was doing it. You know what I mean? But I mean, yes, I, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Because I just did this recently. But the beautiful part of that too, I think is okay if you, if you, and this is my advice to somebody watching you already know this.
Um, the shame is what keeps you there. Absolutely. Absolutely. The shame is what keeps you going. Okay. It doesn't matter. I'm already lose our, might as well do this five more minutes. Exactly. Literally. It's that kind of thinking. Shame is such like a weird, weird thing about like, it's, it's a weird self punishment.
It's a weird, I'm already down. Might as well keep going. It's a, yeah, it's weird. Why, why do I deserve better? You know? Like, why would I deserve better if I can't even treat, uh, the people around me or God Good? You know what I mean? Like, the way that they deserve. Like, it, it's, it's a, it's a weird process.
To, to navigate, but that's like our eyes are focused on us. Mm-hmm. And the action. Exactly. But as soon as I put my guys, my eyes back on him and his word and just, you know, praise him. Mm-hmm. Listen to worship music. Get in the Bible. Yeah. Spend some time with him in the secret place. It, it does change instantly, but that has to become our new habit.
You know, that has to become our new, where we go instead of scrolling social media to soothe us when there's, you know, we're in an uncomfortable conversation around people we don't understand or wanna be around. Yeah. I mean, I just see all of society doing that now. You know, everybody's trying to like stop sending and I think like, that's like a great thing to wanna stop doing, you know?
But I think everybody's trying to do it in their own might a lot of the time because they have shame or like fear. Um. Like go into hell, right? Because of like workspace theologies or, um, they're, they're always trying to like perform for God all the time. Instead, instead of letting God transform you and by like.
And it is his work that changes us, right? Like, I can't change myself to like, stop having like a, an addiction, right? Like, you can't change yourself and stop it. Right? It doesn't really work. Um, like you, your, your mind has to be changed. Whatever we look at, we become. Yeah. So if I'm looking at Jesus, I'm gonna become more like him.
Yeah. If I'm looking at my sin, I'm gonna become more sinful. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? If you're it, it's, what are you staring at? Yeah. Meaning like. It's okay. Like to feel bad for a minute and go, it's that feeling's. Okay. For a minute to go, oh, this, this isn't right. Yeah. But living there will keep you in bondage to it.
Like, like literally just trying to perform dead works all the time to prove your righteousness to God, right? Yes. When you could just let him renew your mind. Do the transforming work, and that's where the renewing of the mind happens is. Yeah. What you said earlier is key. Everything starts with a thought.
Mm-hmm. That's when you were talking about David and these things that. Yeah. Took you down this road to astronaut projection. It started with a thought. Yeah. This is why it's so important that we take thoughts captive. Mm-hmm. And bring them into the obedience of Christ. Okay. So this is interesting. David is looking at Bathsheba.
It started with a thought, right? Yeah. Um, he should have took that like, and I'm not one to talk 'cause I've made mistakes too. But what if he had taken that thought captive in the obedience of Christ? Oh, this is not who God created me to be. Yeah. I am to, you know, this is what I was made for. And back into alignment of Christ.
Mm-hmm. Well, he didn't have Christ yet, but you know what I mean? Um, that's, that's where we can start to that battlefield, that war within that battlefield of our mind. Mm-hmm. Um, is, is taking those slots under that obedience and then replacing them with the truth of mm-hmm. Who God is and who you are.
Absolutely. And, and it's interesting too, like, um. Was like, like there's that like really cliche phrase, like the devil or idle hands or the devil's playground. Yes. King David was supposed to be doing something God, like there, there was something laid out for him to do and he didn't do it. And I can't help but imagine that he was, it says he was looking over his city.
Probably fill some level of pride, right? Probably fill, mm-hmm. I'm, I'm nothing can go wrong. I just went through all this crazy stuff with Saul and now I'm the king. Now I look at me, now I have power. Yeah, look, look at my city. And it just seems like this is where, this is such an easy place for this to happen is when we do have some kind of power.
Yeah. Like so you were walking out and getting your independence, probably feeling a little, yeah. A little more power than you'd ever felt in your life, dude. Oh my gosh. Right? Yeah. And then, so these things you, you're. On your own and nobody's watching you. You're not even living with a roommate. Yeah. So, I mean, there's really no one to hold you accountable to these.
No. Yeah. Like, oh, this is a little off Tyler. Yeah. That's a little sketch, dude. You probably shouldn't be doing stuff like that. Yeah. And I do. Yes, I do remember you telling me about it. And I prayed and prayed and prayed about how to handle it. Yeah. And, um, I think that's when I told you my story Yeah, yeah.
About how, um, the door has opened. For me, like when we step into that world of OC Cult, it does open doors and it does create havoc in your life. Mm-hmm. And we'll talk about that in another podcast. My trip to the Dominican Republic. Yeah. I'm excited for that one. But I've, I've been, I've been wanting her to her to tell her story for a while now.
How has your life changed? Like, can you explain your life, how it was then when you were kinda walking in that town now? Yeah. Like what, what's changed? I really feel like myself. Um, mm-hmm. Like I, I feel like it's so much easier for me to just like rest. Um, I feel like I'm not like so stretched out thin all the time.
I feel like I have like a lot more like peace that I can kind of just rest in all the time. I feel like I can rest. Uh, I feel like I was always, I feel like you deal with things better. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I can hear better. Um, I feel like I can. Love people better. You also see more light and joyful.
Yeah, yeah. Like you had no joy. There was no joy. No. You had no joy during that time period. I was so worried about you. Yeah. I mean, like the only times I did have joy is when I was being a rock star for a minute. You know what I mean? Or like doing living in my sin, you know, and using that to, to dopamine max myself.
But um, yeah. And the how, I mean, that's always fleeting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then it's also like just destroying the, the, the times where I'm not in those moments, you know? Um, I feel like, like a lot more like stable, like mentally I. Oh, I would agree. You were really depressed. Yeah, I was really depressed. I wa I was really, um, up and down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I wa I was just like, if you think like a moody teenager times, times 10, like, um, that's fair. Yeah. I was, I mean I think like a part of that, like, I was like, not only was I experimenting with like a lot of drugs, but I was also drinking a lot. And um, I think I was just always, um, that was also new behavior.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I was like very consistently hung over, um, and like, making bad decisions that I would feel guilt upon and shame upon. Um, I was so like self, um, focused that I was always like, I didn't know how to like, deal with myself when something went wrong or I didn't talk to somebody. Well, so like, I remember like, I would go to work and I would say something that was like, like a little.
Off colored, you know? Mm-hmm. And I would like go home and think about it and feel like absolute crap for like, and beat myself up for so long for saying like, I probably made that person feel so uncomfortable. I don't know why I said something like that. And I would just, I wouldn't go, I wouldn't have, I didn't have any grace in my life.
Like everything was just punishment all the time. Um, and I, and I think like I was just, oh man, I was just so lost. And I think like a part of that is just. Like be on your own for the first time and exploring and, and, and, and making bad decisions. But I also think another part of that was opened and, and it was an open door to what I experienced when I first, um, Asheville projected.
And I think, I think it just, it carried it for a lot longer. I just, I didn't grow up, I didn't manage my emotions. I didn't, I, I was always trying to get everything I wanted all the time, trying to manifest everything all the time, trying to be a rock star, trying to be somebody I just really wasn't at all.
Um, because I felt like. I was just being led to not doing it or led to that. So what would you tell a friend who's dabbling in this new age world or thinking about doing this? I got 30 minutes to talk about Jesus, bro. Um, I, it is just like you, you don't know what kind of consequences that you're opening up, you're opening yourself up to, um, like.
The, the part that is hard is like, I can, I can know how I felt during a time. I can know how depressed I was, but it wasn't like an overtly obvious thing that like, now I did this, and now I'm just so, like, I'm, I feel so bad because of it. Right? Like, I, I can tell looking back that over the period of time it was marked by a darkness.
Um. But you can't, it's hard to see it in the moment when you're can see it. When you're in it, you're like deceived. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Um, yeah, and you, you just have no idea what you're opening yourself up to when it comes to anything of any kind of divination, any other spiritual practice outside of what God has for you.
Um, you don't know the consequences of it. You don't know how God feels about it. And, and, um, it, it could, it could ruin your life. It could go a lot farther, a lot shorter than what happened to my. Life during those couple years. So there's countless stories online of people going through crazy new age experiences like that.
Like th this pales in comparison. Um, but they, like they were so deceived by evil spirits and demons mm-hmm. To do horrendous acts that they thought they were doing the work of God. Yes. So here is the problem is, is we can be deceived Easton, even as Christian. So you are deceived as a Christian. I was deceived.
You know, we can be deceived and the Bible tells us that this is a possibility, so that we need to guard our hearts against it. Yeah. And we need to know the word. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I, I had, you know, God's people perish for a lack of knowledge, and I had no knowledge and, um, I, I actually didn't even really care about anything.
Like I, I joked or I, I had like some suicidal ideation I joked about. Dark, things like that. Like I, I had no idea about how my language, how my words were acting and how my mind was working against me. It is, it is interesting, but that, that's why. Getting in the word is so important. Yeah. Um, and understanding who God is, what his character is, and yeah.
You know, what his expectations of us are and what, what does it look like to be homely, ho holy, to look holy and mm-hmm. Be holy. And what, what does that journey look like? What's that sanctification process look like? Yeah, I think, um, also too, like as I like share this story, it can be, um, taken in so many different ways, uh, that I am by no means glorifying any of this.
Um, I wouldn't wish, wish any of this on my worst enemy. Like I want everybody to come to Jesus because he is real. Uh, just as I had a real experience in that moment, I've had real experiences with Jesus and, uh, he's. He, it's real, you know, like it's, it's, it's the real, he's the way, the truth and the life.
And I, um, there, there's a reason why I've experienced both sides of it. And I chose one side. So I was so worried about you during this time in your life. I didn't know the extent of, you know, this, this wasn't the only new Ag thing you were up to. This was just Yeah. Kind of when I think that defining moment.
Yeah. But, um, I, the darkness, you know. It was pretty heavy around you, and I did not know what to do about it. Um, I did pray, prayed a lot. It was interesting, um, when you told me this and you, we've got to, as a parent, if you're a parent and you have an adult child, it's, it's a little different than having a kid at home.
Mm-hmm. Um, I prayed, prayed, prayed, and. I shared my story with you, but that was all I was supposed to do. That was like, I wasn't to, to admonish you. I wasn't to Yeah. Do anything, which I was like, that was the best choice you could have made in that moment because man, like I. Like, outside of how shameful I was, I was probably exactly stubborn, just the same.
Mm. Um, and that's something I've had to really work through in my, my just being a husband and, and a boyfriend. Yes. During, in a Christian, you know, like being stubborn and prideful. Um, if I heard, well, God knows you saying, yeah. If I heard you saying something like that to me, I, I don't know. Like I, I mean I, I, I probably would've just went further, you know, and, and took it to a different level because I was so.
One deceived, but two stubborn too. So I think that's why we have to be so careful when we are talking to our friends, our family, people who are in this situation. We need to seek God's counsel on how to speak with them. Yeah. Because the last thing I would ever wanna do is push you further into it. And, and to be honest, when I did.
Speak to you about it. I, I felt like I am just not doing enough. I'm not doing enough. God, I'm not doing enough, you know? Oh yeah. And I just have to trust you. I'm just gonna have to trust you, God. 'cause I believe, I believed he was telling me to be quiet a lot. Yeah. Hey, now look at me. And that was, I'm sold on Jesus.
I'm his, he bought me. He bought me for real this time. He did. I think he bought me. So, so here's the thing is like when it pertains to salvation too, like earlier, like. I, I really do think I was saved. I just hadn't began the work of following Jesus at all. I think I was, I would've barely made it through on Judgment Day.
I would've barely made it through. Um, but when I, I mean like. It's also hard to say though because I didn't really trust in Jesus for my salvation. So, um, it's always, it's kind of weird. I feel like I don't ha really have one of those stories where it's like I was saved on this day in 2013. It's much more of like a, I don't, I I just kind of came to God over time, you know?
And, um, well I think that's what happens when we live. Um, both of us probably. And, um, I apologize 'cause I'm probably modeled this. It's that performance based. Yeah, because that's the, we live in a merit driven society, but I was always trying to get God's approval and earn it and his love and. It's that thing where I'm, I said earlier where you, you're going to get saved every week 'cause you sinned again.
Yeah. And not understanding his grace. But I'm sure you witnessed that within me because I couldn't tell you my saved date either because of the same thing where I'm like, okay, I gotta get saved again. I gotta get saved again. Yeah. You know, and you know, Jesus isn't coming down and hanging himself on the cross every week for us folks.
Yeah. He died for all of the sins, all of them present, past, and future. Okay. Complete. It's in Hebrews, read it. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's a free gift. Yeah. And so when I get reassured my faith, I'm not constantly in that place where I need to be reassured of my salvation. Mm-hmm. And so then you can go to step two.
And I think I was so stuck in that performance that I never went to step two of the deeper relationship because I was always striving to have to be saved. Yeah, well then you don't feel qualified enough and then you don't, then you just don't do it because it's like, why would I even start. I can't ever make it.
I can't ever do it. Why can't I ever get it right? Well, you, you can't on your own because that's what happens when you're in that works cycle. You cannot do it on your own. It takes God, it takes the transformation of your heart. That only happens when we are looking at him, not ourselves. It's motivated by shame and it steals glory from God.
So, and, and, and Grace empowers you like the, the word grace in the Bible is so like backed by power. And it that, it's so interesting how it's always backed by power is because God's grace, even outside of what he did to save us, his grace empowers us to do better, to, to continue walking inside. Like, like it's, it's a, every time I fall down.
Experience his grace. I keep to keep going and growing. You know what I mean? Every time, every, it's, it's always like every test I fail is a moment of grace that empowers me. Well, Tyler, you have any closing words? Yeah, you can't earn salvation. Uh, don't experience new age at all. It's not even worth it. Not even a little bit.
Uh, it's not fun. It's not cool. It's not a positive experience. Um, and it is completely in deceit. Jesus is the only way. Um. And just, it's a real power. If you haven't really tried to get to know Jesus on like a real level, and you are saying, and you're saying that He, you don't believe in him like you, you don't know you.
You couldn't know what you don't believe in, you know? Um, there's so many people that like, just don't know what they don't believe in and are willing to bash something that they don't believe in, uh, without giving, um, any, any, like I said, like we were talking about open-mindedness, that it could be the truth.
Um. That and, and there even outside of having, um. An extreme amount of historical data to, to prove its credibility. Um, you can have a personal experience, uh, right now, even if you want. So yeah, get, get to know who God is. Get to know who Jesus is. Thank you for sharing your story. I really appreciate it and I hope that, um, everyone watching enjoyed it too and was blessed by it.
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