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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 67 (Erik Freiburger)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today, I'm joined by Erik Freiburger.
Erik is a writer, theologian, creator, and storyteller whose work explores the intersections of disability, dignity, and hope. Holding a bachelor's degree in theology and a master's degree in religious education with a focus on missional leadership, he brings both scholarly depth and lived experience to questions of belonging, justice, identity, and transformation within the disabled life. Writing on his Substack, At The Bottom of the Well, and hosting the Well Dwellers podcast, Erik is creating spaces for voices from the margins and reflections on the sacred work of becoming. Rooted in a commitment to wonder and the dignity of all bodies, his work invites readers and listeners into deeper attentiveness to the mysteries unfolding at the edges of who we are and where we find ourselves in our society.[00:01:00]
Erik enjoys spending time with his wife, Bonnie, working out in his basement gym while listening to his expanding record collection, wheeling the park pathways around his city home, reading in-depth literature, and watching creative movies.
Thanks for joining me today, Erik. I'm excited, um, and curious about our conversation coming up.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah. Oh, I'm excited to, uh, get to converse with you as well. Uh, it's gonna be a fun time.
Andrew Camp: Before I dive into sort of how we, our paths crossed, I, curious, you know, it's always interesting to hear people's story more than just a bio.
A bio gives us, um, some great information, and your bio does that. But, like, who is Erik, and what, what is your lived experience?
Erik Freiburger: Oh, wow. Well, uh, where to start? It's always the question. Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, my wife and I, uh, we've lived in Southeast Calgary for, oh, 20, [00:02:00] 27 years. Actually, we're getting ready to celebrate our 27th anniversary on May 15th, this Friday, so.
Andrew Camp: Oh, congratulations.
Erik Freiburger: Thank you. Yes. Uh, j- just so our listeners know, um, she is also in a wheelchair, uh, as am I. Mm-hmm. Uh, from a spinal cord injury. We both were injured in motor vehicle accidents in 1992 and 1994 for myself. Um, but, uh, yeah, we, we lived here in the southeast. Uh, you know, we were part of a house church movement for a lot of years.
And, um, um, it's hard to know what to tell. Uh, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, so y- your disability, you're, you're in a wheelchair because of an accident. Um, you know, and so as we think about disability, like, even there are, you know- Using the correct terms. Like, I was talking to my wife, who's a clinical [00:03:00] psychologist, and she was like, "I don't even know the correct terms to use," and like, "How do we even begin talking about this?"
And so I think on my part, I'm gonna own it up front. Like, I feel anxious 'cause I-- it's not a topic I'm familiar with or have done a lot of reading or, um, conversing about. And so, like, for myself, for the listeners, like, what are we-- what are the correct terms, and what are we even talking about when we, we, you know, when we explore disability and what it means to belong?
Erik Freiburger: Wow. Um, yeah. I mean, the word disabled over many years has been one of great controversy, and how do we understand it? How do we define it? Uh, for myself, even as a person who has a disability, it's, it's taken shape over many years. It's, it's [00:04:00] almost like a, a word that grows in maturity- Mm ... um, as you, as you live with a disabled life.
Um, I didn't want to be called disabled when I was first injured in 1994. I preferred people call me challenged- Mm ... uh, which has its own controversies. Um, but I didn't want, uh, I didn't want the social stigma that I guess came, comes with it. I, I wanted to be seen as someone who was active and alive, and, and I was young.
I was 15 when I had my spinal cord injury. So- Uh ... um, so i-i-it's-- I wanted to be able to be, um, not defined by the fact that I was in a wheelchair. But as I grew older, I realized that, uh, and I would be challenged by friends, that, [00:05:00] you know, when you look at the word disabled, it isn't m- it shouldn't be confined to just a, a
lesser value of your human nature. It should rather be something that is maybe, uh, more broader, more complex in its understanding, but redeemable to- Mm ... who you are as a person. I think I spent a lot of time over the last several years kind of disimpacting a lot of the, the, the struggles that I had with it.
And, uh, and I realized, um, that it's really built around kind of- Kind of the language of theology that I've grown up with, but it's also, uh, built by the historical, [00:06:00] uh, context of it. And I think it's important that we also learn and recognize the models of, of disability that are at play in understanding it.
Um, so, you know, uh, it was probably four or five years ago, I injured my shoulder, and I really felt drawn into this question of, okay, um, what, what does it mean for me to be disabled? Previously, it was more of a subconscious level, but now it's becoming more personal, more, uh, more upfront and more on a conscious level.
And, and so I, I was asking two questions. Um, is being disabled meant to be a blessing or a curse? And the second question I was asking is, is the word disabled redeemable?
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: So, um, [00:07:00] I was reading Betty Pries's book at the time called, uh, The Space Between Us, and she gave this great articulation of self-identity through, through three elements of the defined self, the defended self, and the deeper self.
But as I was reading and going through, I could really sense and see how these, these elements were a great way to articulate and define disability and my disabled self. But I think, and further, uh, you know, if you take it further, you can see it in organizations and corporate identity too. But, um, but yeah, I could really see how in the sense of being defined, um, you know, there's, th- there's this, uh, [00:08:00] breakdown of how we explore those, those things I mentioned, the, the theology of it, um, and the historical, uh, where, uh, you know, the negativity of past, the lesser than can impact our understandings.
And then I think a, a big one for, for us that we explore is the medical and the social and the religious models really play into our understanding of it. Um- Mm-hmm ... I know that's a lot of complex stuff. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: N- n- no. I, I love those questions you asked yourself, like the four to five years ago is, is disability a blessing or a curse, and is the word redeemable?
And so I'm curious, like, where- Where have you then grown to see it? Like, 'cause I think, you know, I was raised evangelical Christian, and, you know, I think Christians would see disability as a result of the [00:09:00] fall, as a part of the curse of sin, um, and something that is not right. Um, you know, and, and maybe that's so, but, like, how, how have you grown to maybe to more embrace your disability?
Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: So I think it's important to note that, um, it, it's, n- disability is neither a blessing or a curse. Mm-hmm. It is both/and in the same sense. Um, you know, the, the word blessing really comes from the Hebrew word barak, uh, which, you know, when you look at the creation story, it's talking about, uh, and it was all good, right?
Yeah. I think that's an important note, to see the good in every moment and every time. But the m- the mo- the, the thing that we struggle [00:10:00] with, I think, is to say that blessing is something we possess rather than recognizing the relationship we have with each moment, particularly the presence of God, the presence of our creator.
That is the blessings that we experience. But in that same moment, we can all experience, um, the curse- Yeah ... uh, which comes from arar, the Hebrew word. Arar, uh, can be kind of used to break down into kind of the emotional reactions we have, the anger, frustrations. Well, can you really deny being, you know, not an, an emotional creature?
I mean, there are times that we, we emotionally, uh, have our outbursts and our, our struggles. Um, there are moments of curse- Mm-hmm ... uh, in life, and there's the social exclusion part of [00:11:00] that. There's the kind of unclean, uh, sense, the cast out. Now, that kind of plays into some of those models we talked a- talked about, uh, the social model of disability, where it's an understanding that, um, disability is not something that I personally have or am defined by, but rather something society pushes on me-
Andrew Camp: Hmm
Erik Freiburger: and frames me as, um, which is, uh, shaped by bias, prejudice, and ableism. Um, so this becomes kind of a, a, a curse element in that, and, and we live through that on a daily basis. Uh, there's the deconstructive patterns, the harmful behaviors, uh, that can, can be part of our nature. And then there's the limitations and boundaries, which are actually more of a, a neutral reality to our disability.
I often talk [00:12:00] to my friends about, uh, Paul's words in Acts 17 when he says that God has set our limits and boundaries. It's important to note that we need to know our limitations, that being a finite, um, creature is not a detriment. It's the nature of our creation. So, so, so yeah, when, you know, when I was asking that question of, um, uh, is it a blessing or a curse, it's both/and.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: And I need to be willing to submit into that, um, recognition.
Andrew Camp: It is that tension, right? I think so much of life we want it black or white, we want it this or that, whereas how do we embrace the complexity of our full lived experience, um, that is blessing and curse? Um, you [00:13:00] know, and it's ea- easy as a able-body person to not, you know, deal in, in, in that frame all the time.
But, like, how, what, what can the disabled community or disabled people teach us about sort of this, this both/and of blessing and curse- cursedness of life that I think we, we're daily embar- or daily live into but really want to ignore at times?
Erik Freiburger: Hmm. Yeah. I think that kind of plays into some of the, um, the defended, uh, self part that I had spoke about earlier.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Um, you know, we want to control our world. We want to be able to, uh, articulate it in a way that [00:14:00] doesn't, uh, create, uh, oh, what do we call? I mean, you talked about disgust in our kind of pre-conversation. Yeah. Uh, but, but we don't want those things to infringe on our freedoms and rights that we perceive.
Um, and so as, as Betty Price articulates, I'll just share the quote that she- uses to describe it. Uh, it is the defended self that lies at the root of racism, sexism, and every other prejudice. When a hierarchy of characteristics is established at the societal level, systemic prejudice emerges and over time becomes cemented in place.
Uh, now the characteristics that are considered good and not good are so unconscious as to be unnoticeable to all but those who pay, uh, uh, those who pay close attention. Um, I think, [00:15:00] you know, there's kinda two ways that it's sometimes dealt with, uh, when it comes to disability. Either you are excluded and pushed out from the community, uh, due to these biases, or you are whitewashed, and I've heard it said in like, "Well, aren't we all disabled in some form or way?"
Right? And, and it's important to note that, um, that when you look at that defined reality of what it means to live with a disability, uh, it's important to acknowledge that there are those who, who in, y- you know, in their nature are particularly confronted by a particular disability, um, that is ostracized or, um, m-
prejudiced against by- Right ... [00:16:00] the social elements around them.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: I think what you just said makes me think of sort of the, you know, colorblind comments when we deal with racism. "Well, I don't, I don't see, see color, you know, y- you know, we're all- Mm ... we're all the same," you know, or, you know, sort of that same comment of, "Aren't we all disabled?"
Well, no, like, m- maybe in some weird way, you know, like whatever f- you know, but what people l- you know, the people who live with and are confronted daily with disabilities, the ex- like what you said, the exclusion, um, the ostracization, the disgust that they experience from society is very different, um, than what I would experience.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Erik Freiburger: And I think, I think one of the things that we really should work towards transforming when it comes to the word disabled is to recognize that disabled itself is not meant to be a [00:17:00] lesser than or curse element. Yeah. It's actually a, a gift, a blessing. Uh, you think of the story of Jacob in Genesis- Mm
right? Uh, Jesus, uh, I shouldn't say Jesus. I should say God touched his, um, touched his hip And he walked with a limp, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Uh, and was forever changed. Now some might say, "Well, that's a disability." Yeah, it is, and what was it? It was a blessing by God to recreate his identity-
Andrew Camp: Mm ...
Erik Freiburger: um, as his cre- you know, in relationship to his creator, so.
Andrew Camp: I appreciate those words. And so, um, we met because through a mutual friend, Michael Morelli. Um- Mm-hmm ... you know, and when you were talking about the defended self, it made me think of how, how we sort of met, because I had to deal with my own defended self. Um, you know, because we met, Michael and I recorded a topic or [00:18:00] a podcast on AI.
Um, you, you listened to it and you gave some, some pushback and much needed correction. Um, and 'cause your concern was that if AI is inherently lacking because of its inability to eat, what does that mean for disabled people unable to eat and enjoy the pleasures of the table? And, um, I pulled the quote 'cause I wanted to make sure I got the words right, but you wrote,
"Human experience and definition within hospitality has largely focused on the sharing and consumption of food. There isn't a street we can really drive by without at least one consumer food source. But I ponder if the words man shall not live by bread alone might bring greater definition to our relationship with AI. Might the breaking of bread be an actionable call to disciple in hospitality as opposed to, uh, exclude out of difference?"
And so when you first raised these concerns, I, I got defensive 'cause I'm like, "Oh, you're..." Like, "He doesn't know me." Like, you know, um, [00:19:00] you know, right or wrong, you know, it's my... You know, we all when people push back against us, uh, you know, we'll be honest, like we all get probably a little defensive. But, uh, as I was able to collect, I was like, "Okay, I'm missing something here.
What am I missing about hospitality? What am I missing about the, the table? If my podcast is the biggest table and that there's room for everyone, how do I go about creating spaces of welcome for people of disability that, and what blind spots do I have?" Um, and so you were gracious enough to respond and be part of this.
And so I'm curious then, like, as we think about food and hospitality, what, where do we need to, to rethink these ideas as a person with disabilities? Oh,
Erik Freiburger: wow. I, I think I wanna tell you a bit of a story of where [00:20:00] that thought kinda came from. Yeah. 'Cause if I'm totally honest with you, Andrew, uh, my response to you and Michael's, uh, conversation was a bit defensive on my own of myself.
Um- So back in 2014, uh, my wife, who I mentioned was in a wheelchair as well, experienced, uh, some further breakdown, uh- Mm ... from her spinal cord, uh, injury, where she is actually a C1, C2, uh, incomplete quadriplegic, which I'm sure means absolutely nothing to your listeners. But, uh, but for, for a bit of a description, um, uh, I, I learned in, in a class trying to teach some students, this might be dating me a bit, but Christopher Reeves, if [00:21:00] you're familiar with Christopher Reeves- Yep
he was the guy that played Superman back in the '80s.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Erik Freiburger: That's, that's my, uh, that's my first introduction to Superman. Um, but he experienced a spinal cord injury in the, oh, what was that? Early '90s?
Andrew Camp: I think so. Yeah, I don't remember
Erik Freiburger: myself.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yep.
Erik Freiburger: Somewhere around there. And his break was a C1, C2. Uh, so- Mm
uh, it's known as a hangman's fracture. Uh, at the time very, uh... You, you were rare to live from it. Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, but she had her spinal cord, her spine fused from her skull down to her C, uh, C6 vertebrae. But after years of pivoting on that one vertebrae, it had broken down and caused some further neurological [00:22:00] damage.
So what they had to do in 2014 was fuse further down her spine.
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Erik Freiburger: In the process, uh, she lost her ability to eat.
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Erik Freiburger: Uh, she couldn't swallow properly. Um, and they were concerned about aspiration and, and other things, so they ended up putting a foo, a feeding tube in, into her stomach. Now, there's, there's more to the story here.
She, she's eating today, just- Wow ... for clarity. Um, but at the time, there was a huge amount of prayer going out over her, and concern as, uh, as to how our house church community was going to function when everything we did with hospitality was largely based around our ability to share food. [00:23:00] We would have potlucks every two weeks.
Our communion gatherings were set around a actual meal table. And so the question is, is how can Bonnie participate and be a part of that Eucharist meal? When she can no longer eat.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: As a husband, I was confronted with the, uh, very real, uh, challenges of how am I gonna eat around my wife-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Erik Freiburger: uh, and not feel guilty, um, and not feel I'm depriving her of, um, or...
Hmm.
Y- you know, the guilt, I guess, that I felt-
Andrew Camp: Right ...
Erik Freiburger: of being able to take part in, in such an [00:24:00] enjoyable part of life that she's not able to. And, um, and so a lot, a lot was happening around that. Interestingly enough, I was taking a course on hospitality at the time, which drove a lot of, uh, growth spiritually for us.
Mm-hmm. Um, but it was a recognition that hospitality as a community needs to be far more broad, far more, um, expansive and enriched by a greater experience than just the consumption of food.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. A- and so then how, what, what then could be a working definition or how, what... I guess since you were brave in sharing that story, where did your community land, and how was your [00:25:00] celebration of the Eucharist transformed and probably broadened and, you know, enlivened because of Bonnie?
Erik Freiburger: So I think one of the things that we really landed on was that we needed to build on relationships and, and not policies, for one. Hmm. Uh, disability is often treated in churches and in communities as are we making the correct steps and accessibility measures according to what the law says, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: And we need to realize that no, we need to back up, and this is in my missional patterns of, um, the four Ps of missional community, um, and relationship. But, [00:26:00] uh- Yeah. We need to recognize the neighborhood and the r- the, the ground that we're on, the people who are around us, and build into those relationships to learn who they are, um, and to be willing to grow with them and allow them to shape the way our hospitality, uh, is expressed and encountered.
Um, it became one of asking Bonnie, uh, "How, how can we allow you to experience the body and blood of Christ in your life, and how can we share with it together, uh, share in that together?" And, and I think, too, is also, uh, we need to build our hospitality on a spirit of communal belonging and not consumerism.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Um, this is something that's, [00:27:00] I think, particularly really hard for the church. Um, I was gonna say today, but it's probably been for all time, is, uh, uh, change is not welcome. Yeah. But b- we want the staple diet of our traditional ways we do church, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, and we need to be willing to see church on a much more broader, creative, experiential, uh, formation than just our staple diet of Sunday morning rituals.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah. Um, and w- in doing that, that creates more of that spirit of, uh, communal belonging for all the people who are in your neighborhood.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. 'Cause I think a definition I always come back to when it, when I think of hospitality [00:28:00] is informed by Henri Nouwen's work, um, in reaching out, where he talks about hospitality as the creation of a free space where the other person can truly become who God intended them to be or who they were intended to be.
Um, I've yet to draw out the implications of what that means, um, for disabled people, and so I'm curious, like, you know, 'cause I think part of... I was excited about this conversation is just to learn and to, like, okay, what is h- you know, help me begin this journey. And so, like, if, if Henri Nouwen has a good definition, like...
Or what do you think of Henri Nouwen's definition, and what, from your perspective, what would you add or nuance because of your lived experience, because of Bonnie's lived experience?[00:29:00]
Erik Freiburger: Well, you know, I'll be upfront. As I had said, I come from a house church background. Um, I, I have largely felt as a bit of a nomad to the traditional church.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Um, I, I'm the guy that goes out to the desert and builds a tabernacle with whatever I've got and, uh, and invite the people to journey for the, uh, the liminal experience of being out in the middle of nowhere.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Erik Freiburger: I think the church needs to let go of a lot of the old paradigms and really allow for, uh, new expressions to take place. It's hard for big churches to do this particularly.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Um, see beyond the Sunday morning-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ... [00:30:00]
Erik Freiburger: and really- Yeah ... really journey with the people in your neighborhood.
Andrew Camp: 'Cause I guess, yeah, the, the experience of a house church versus a Sunday morning, you know, traditional gathering, I, I, I've been part of the more traditional e- evangelical brand of Christianity where Sunday morning and building is king.
Richard Beck even points out in one of his books that, like, he was at a big church and doing consulting and, you know, he noticed, like, their worship stage was all a certain type of person that, you know, excluded any old people, any disabled people.
Um, they wanted to project an identity and an image that may not actually be accurate of what life is about. Uh, you know, a- and if a church has a ministry to people with disabilities, it's usually off in the corner someplace, or we bring them up one Sunday, [00:31:00] you know, probably to f- make us feel better, you know, about ourselves.
Um, and so what, you know, again, you, you're- in a house church, but as you've thought about the Sunday morning experience, and you've even said, "We gotta change our ideas," like, what, what does a church need to think about to be more welcoming, to be more, to not push people with disabilities off to the periphery, but to include them into the center of, of the lived experience of a community?
Erik Freiburger: Hmm. Okay.
Yeah, I, I put some thoughts down to this, uh, idea, Andrew, from, from some of the notes we had before.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Um, I'm always a little resistant at telling churches what to do because I don't like the, [00:32:00] you know, step one, step two, step three, because it go- falls back into that policies category, right?
Andrew Camp: For sure.
Yep.
Erik Freiburger: Build those relationships first. Yep. But here's a few steps that I kind of had thought of us doing. Um, the one is, uh, create a culture of caring, first off. Hmm. In, in your church communities, create a culture of caring, and I, I put down, uh, a, a quote from Richard Beck here. Um, he says in, in his, one of his latest books, The Shape of Joy, "The invisible world of values and sunlight that shines forth from moral beauty is more powerful than oceans and mountains in pulling us into amazement and wonder.
Transcendent values and invisible facts of the world, from the intrinsic worth of human beings to the moral values that guide righteous action, cannot be detected by any [00:33:00] invention of science, yet these invisible facts are the most potent force in our lives, guiding our steps, shaping our judgments, informing our choices, forming our character, nurturing our dreams, and guiding our hearts.
Your life is pushed and pulled by tidal waves far more powerful than the law of gravity," particularly the act of care. Hmm. Uh, when, when we are driven by care, we begin to look outwards to those around us and engage in their lives in different ways, particularly, you know, when you think of disabled people around you.
When you begin to engage in them and you begin an authentic sharing of relational contact, there's a mutual care that takes place. Henri Nouwen talks about that, right?
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Erik Freiburger: So, uh, as you offer care, you also receive care. [00:34:00] I think the, the, another thing to look at would be to advocate for both personal and communal dignity.
Now here's a, here's something that I think is a huge stepping stone for churches these days, and denominations. Um, when we start advocating for those who are being oppressed in our society, I mean, the very nature or call of the church, I would think, we can't deny the intersectionalities of all those who are being oppressed.
Um, and I, I honestly, I, I've been scratching my head a lot over this the last little while. But, uh, when we praise people like Martin Luther King for the amazing work he did for social justice,
how do we get around his, his prophetic call when he says, [00:35:00] "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. "
Erik Freiburger: We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly." Now here's where I'm going with this. There are absolutely other marginal groups that exist in our society.
Disability is one of those groups, and is often lumped in with all other groups o- of marginality, and we have lots of intersections in those. But quite often, despite the fact that the church is called to care for the, the least of those, it is all thrown out as a danger to the...
Oh, [00:36:00] I'm trying to think of the right word. Uh, it is all thrown out out of the fear of losing social resource, social capital, uh, social prestige.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Erik Freiburger: And, and I can't understand. You will pat, uh, Martin Luther King on the back all day long- Yeah ... for his amazing work, but when you are called upon it, you lose the vision for it, and I don't understand that.
Andrew Camp: I think there's so much to unpack there, 'cause you're right. Like, you know, we- If I can pause before you go onto your next point, because I think what you just said is like, okay, we, like you said, we praise Martin Luther for his call to justice, and we, every once a year, every church in America and pro- you know, around the world, [00:37:00] every white church will quote that, you know, that phrase, you know, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere," and, "The long arc of history moves towards justice."
You know, right? Like, we're all familiar, and yet when we call, when the call goes out to, "Okay, what does it mean to get your hands dirty?" We, uh, w- it's a little, we back up a little. Are we, like you said, the, the threat to resources, you know, is huge. You know, we, we af- we're afraid to offend certain people because of their checks that they write or, you know, what it means for attendance.
And in this era of accumulation and growth and the decline and all of it that goes into it, we are scared, and we do not want to actually engage because we think we might actually move further into obscurity, when rather God might actually be meeting us on the margins rather than at the center, where the church has been for too long anyway.
Um, you're gonna get me going here, [00:38:00] too. And so, like, I think, you know, Richard Beck, you know, using Miroslav Volf's work, you know, like the will to embrace. Like how to, you know, hospitality begins with the will to embrace, and when the church is called to that embrace, t- into the call of the touch, the leper before healing the leper, the church stops short of that because we are afraid of contamination.
We are afraid of what it will do to our congregation. We're afraid, we're disgusted. You know, like, we could go on and on, right? Like, and so I think what you just said is so important, and I don't mean to usurp your words, but, um, I think it is important to think through. God calls us to move towards the margins and to meet those people, and yet it is hard, and we gotta own that defensiveness and that place.
But also, how do we continue to take slow steps towards that place and meet people on the margins?
Erik Freiburger: Yeah. Yep. [00:39:00] I mean, uh, communally, we so often like to either do one of two things. We'll go t- uh, we'll do things towards them. We'll give money,
Andrew Camp: right? Yep.
Erik Freiburger: Here, take some money. Go, go do whatever needs to do.
Just don't put my name in it, right? Yeah. Yep. Or we'll do things for them, right? Mm-hmm. We'll, uh, we'll set up social programs and, uh, and allow those social programs to benefit them as para-church or, or just, uh, outside of church activity. Um, but will the church actually go with them, right? Mm. Mm. That is the real question.
Will, will the church actually move towards going with the marginal community? [00:40:00] Um, and we, you know, for advocacy, we need the church to move with us, not just do things for us.
Andrew Camp: Wow. Wow. I love that phrase, um, 'cause as you were talking, you know, y- I see every so often, you know, Tim Tebow's A Night to Shine, you know, where churches- Mm
will put on the big prom, which I, again, it's good, right? Like, I don't wanna diminish what people experience, b- but if that's the only thing you're doing for that community and you're not journeying with them into the places, other places, then, like, it needs to be... Like, that's a step, but how do we continue to, to journey with, with them versus just doing a one-night big event for them, I think is what you're asking us to do.
Erik Freiburger: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let's look at Alberta. Alberta, Canada is considered [00:41:00] to have, uh, about just a little less than 30%, 27% of the population's considered to be disabled.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Uh, in, in a province like this, uh, there is only... Well, there's what? 1.7 million people in Alberta that are disabled. Hmm. That is pretty much the population of Calgary, the City of Calgary.
So across the province, there is only one church that I'm aware of that has a recognized disability ministry. Hmm. Um, and, and there's lots of different questions to ask around how does disability ministry take shape, and how do you, how do you do it? And I think there is [00:42:00] value in both articulating and recognizing disabled community in the church, but there is also an importance not to put it as a side project or, you know, on the month of- You know, whatever, this is our disability month.
No, there's, there's gotta be a balance of an ecosystem that, that is inclusive all the time, year round, and that's what it means to move with, with them. But when you only have one church in, in a province that has a, a population far, far, you know, that, that 30% of the population, uh, where is the other churches to connect with their local, their local, uh, disabled, uh, presence, yeah, in their, in their communities?
It's crazy.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:43:00]
Erik Freiburger: But, um, yeah. And I think that kind of goes to the third point that I was gonna say, when you consider how you, you begin to, uh, practice an inclusive environment for disabled in the church. And I, I use the words again from my friend John Van Sloten when he says, "The room is my theology.
Everything is mystical."
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: And I think that that's so important. You know, if you're a church leader, if you're a church member, uh, elder, whatever it is, if you're, if you're a Christian in your neighborhood just sit for a moment and look at the neighbors on your block and say, "This, this is my room. This is my theology."
How is the [00:44:00] ground you're on and the, the neighbors that you live with shaping your theology? Don't ask what named preacher there is on TV that's shaping your theology. How about the neighbors that are living right next to you? How are they shaping your theology, and how many of them are disabled?
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: I look down my block right now as I look out the window, and I can think of at least, um, three, four neighbors that all have different disabilities, from MS to spinal cord injury, and, uh, and the ways that they've been a part of my life and the way they've shaped me, the way I see God.
And all of it's mystical, you know? It, it creates a world of wonder. Yeah. And it makes me wanna get out, you know, get out of the [00:45:00] four walls of the church and see the amazing presence of God that's living right next to me.
Andrew Camp: I love the quote, like, "The room is my theology," and I, I don't think we stop to ponder- How much of our lived experience and the people we're surrounded by, uh, day in, day out, or on a Sunday shape what we believe more than the preacher or more than the book or more than a podcast, um, you listen to.
That really, that quote says, you know, "Hey, who you surround yourself will actually guide your theology." You know? And the proximity, um, shapes more than we, I think, dare to speak.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh, and, and, and yet we have to move... You know, there are obstacles [00:46:00] to moving towards proximity, and I think disgust, and you and I touched, you know, talked about it briefly, um, in, you know, our pre-show.
What role does disgust play in exclusionary practices for the disabled community, and, and how might we move past disgust?
Erik Freiburger: I was sort of thinking about this question the other day. I think you saw my social post.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Erik Freiburger: Um, kinda reaching out to some of my community. Um, I was a little curious, how are you defining disgust theory?
Andrew Camp: How do I define disgust? That's a good question, and I was looking back over notes, and now I don't have it right in front of me.
Um, you know, it's, disgust is sort of a boundary emotion between what is me and what is not me. Um, you know, disgust in [00:47:00] practice can help save our lives when it, you know, like, we have a disgusting reaction towards food that might be poisonous or that might be harmful to us. Um, you know, it is, disgust is a, um, like Richard Beck says, it is a, an oral sensation, you know, of-
designed to protect us. But when disgust becomes bad is when it moves towards exclusionary practices towards humans, where, like, "Hey, you, who you are is disgusting," and we never would say that out loud because, you know, it's not correct, but I think we operate in a lot of that way, of like, who you are might actually impact me, you know, and might corrupt me versus who Jesus is in me and in you might actually bring about a better contamination, um, if that makes sense.
Um, you know, 'cause I think there is, there is an emotional reaction to- the [00:48:00] disabled community, I think if we are honest. Um, and so I think we may not name it as disgust, but I think it operates as disgust at times because it is so exclusionary. Um, 'cause I don't think it's fear. Um, I think it's something deeper at times, um, if that ma- if I'm making sense.
Erik Freiburger: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think one of the ways I heard it described, um, in kinda what I was thinking, was that it explores how human beings react to bodies, experiences, or realities that threaten, uh, our sense of order, purity, control, or normalcy.
Andrew Camp: Yep. That's a great way to say it.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah. And I think what's intriguing is that I don't think our churches really like to hear the word disgust in the way [00:49:00] that they practice, the way that they, they live, um, because it challenges those very things.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: It challenges their understanding of order and purity particularly. Um, I think many churches, um, uh, have unconsciously organized themselves around what might be called purity logics, assumptions that the ideal human is independent, rational, articulate, productive, and physically capable. Um, I, I share another story with you from, from this.
I don't, I don't wanna... By sharing these things, I don't wanna detract people from, from the church. I deeply value the church. Right. Yeah. I love the
Andrew Camp: church. Right.
Erik Freiburger: I grew up in it. But, but I think it's important for us to hear these things so that it confronts some of the, uh, [00:50:00] defended realities that we have that need to change.
So, uh, in my undergraduate studies years ago, many of the students were getting ready to do service week and, uh, do different, um, activities in local churches. And I was planning on sharing a message and speaking at a, at one of the local churches in Southern Alberta. And I remember being called to the president of the, uh, of the college's office, and, uh, and I was chatting with him there, and he had to very, uh...
I felt, you know, I know it was hard for him, but he had to apologize to me and, and ask for forgiveness because the church where I was to go speak at Said they would [00:51:00] not allow me to preach in their church unless I got out of my wheelchair and walked up to the pulpit and spoke from the pulpit. Now, to say that that's a disgust reaction is probably...
I mean, to me, it felt even more than that.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Uh, um, and, and but you can see how this is part of that church's culture.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Erik Freiburger: And they don't even recognize it as being a disgust, uh, part of who they are, um, in the way that they're expressing their understanding of hearing the word of God. Uh, I think hospitality is also, uh, can become conditional.
People are welcome insofar as they do not disrupt efficiency, comfort, uh, aesthetics, and social [00:52:00] expectations. Uh, some more thoughts here. Um, we've... These are just some things that I've heard over the years. "Wouldn't it be better for him/her to be with Jesus?" Wow. That was pretty heart-wrenching when I heard that.
Uh, "Won't it be wonderful once you get to heaven and you can run and jump like everyone else?" Uh, I just point people to, I think it's 2 Corinthians 15, when it starts articulating what the, uh, resurrected body looks like, and I say, "It's a mystery. I don't even know what's gonna happen when we're all resurrected.
Maybe you all are gonna be growing wheels from your hips. I don't know." So, um, you know, I just look forward to that day. And then this one's really powerful, uh, and has... [00:53:00] When you talk about spiritual harm. Uh, it was my graduation f- with my, my theology degree, and my wife, who's also in a wheelchair, as I have shared, is with me, of course.
And I had been in many debates, uh, throughout my four-year time, uh, of studies, uh, talking about the significance and, uh, understandings of full immersion baptism. And I, you know, my wife Bonnie and I have not been fully immersed in baptism. We had water poured over our heads as we confessed before our congregation, uh, our faith for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but not actually put fully underwater.
And- As we were leaving the graduation ceremony, [00:54:00] uh, a particular elder says to us, and this still haunts my wife to this day. I'm so ashamed and hurt that she heard these words. But she, uh, the elder says to, to me, "Erik, have you gone under the water yet?" And I said, "No, I have not done this, uh, to the way you are describing it yet."
And these are the exact words he said, "Some people prefer the warmth of the fires of hell than the comforts of heaven."
Andrew Camp: W- w- why?
Erik Freiburger: Because the theological understanding of expectation to the normalcy, to the, uh, to the order of things, was that in order to experience salvation, you must be fully immersed underwater [00:55:00] in baptism, and if you have not actually performed this physical act, salvation is not within your reach. Now, as a disabled person, how am I supposed to respond to this?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Like, how did you not just want to allow him to meet Jesus that very moment? Like-
you know, joking aside, like, you know.
Erik Freiburger: I, I think one of the things that really stuck with me was not so much, uh, I, I mean, it was a pain. It was a, a, a heart pain, uh, for him, but particularly for my wife that she heard this, and I know she, she hurts to this day over this. Um, the particular, uh, gentleman and I had had many discussions previously [00:56:00] about the meanings of baptism and full immersion.
Uh, I, I could even refer to, to, you know, when Jesus was with his, uh, uh, disciples talking about the Sabbath. Was the Sabbath not made for man? Um, but yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, so, um, so yeah, I think, I think it was, uh, mostly the pain that I felt for, for my wife that she, she heard these things. I was prepared for it. Y-
Andrew Camp: right.
Like, you, you've been around it, but when it affects the people we love, that changes it. Um, you know, it makes, I think it makes it harder Like I can be prepared for what people will say to me, but if you go after somebody I [00:57:00] love, like, you know, game over. Uh, y- um, attack me, don't attack, you know, my loved ones.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah. Um,
Andrew Camp: you know? And... Go ahead.
Erik Freiburger: Yeah. It, it's definitely... I mean, it, it, it can also go towards when Jesus is saying that when, when someone strikes you on the one cheek, turn to them the other, right?
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: And I think I, I try and model that as best I can. Uh, of course, I want to respond with the prophetic. I'm, I'm with Elijah.
Let's go get our swords and take out those prophets of Baal. I know, right. But, but, uh, but I think, um, deep down, uh, I recognize that I must bear the cross-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Erik Freiburger: that I have and carry it, and [00:58:00] carry it with a sense of glory, with a sense of pride.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Uh, as, as Jesus said to the blind man in John 9, "This man is not born blind because of A, B, or C, but rather that he might show the glory of God."
Um, that glory of God is seen in this man's life before any healing's taken place.
Andrew Camp: Right. Mm-hmm.
Erik Freiburger: So, so we can see the glory of God, as we shared earlier, in the mysticism of the room we're in and the people we are with. Hmm. I think, I think that's actually something I was gonna, you know, articulate, was that I think, uh, when we look at the church's struggles with disgust, uh, is it's often not a merely inaccessible buildings, but inaccessible imaginations, an inability to recognize vulnerability, dependence, and difference as places [00:59:00] where God is already present.
Accessibility without transformed imagination still leaves people unseen.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Uh, and imagination without a theology of vulnerable love still leaves God misunderstood, with his followers incapable of seeing him in vulnerable bodies.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Erik Freiburger: We talk about vulnerable bodies, and I think of Jesus in the resurrected form telling Thomas, "Put your hands in my side, and touch and see the, the wounds in my hands and feet."
It's-
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Mm-hmm ... Jesus comes to us vulnerably, and-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Erik Freiburger: our, you know, our disabled community does likewise.
Andrew Camp: I love that in that, you know, you said, you know, the ch- uh, to paraphrase, like a church can make all the accessible requirements and meet the law, you know, the letter- Mm-hmm ... of the law, but if it's [01:00:00] not with a resurrected imagination, it's all for naught.
Um, if the- Yeah ... it, you know, people are still unseen. Um, and so as you... Like what, what gives you hope? Like you've shared a lot about the burden, you know, the pain at times. Um, as you... What, what still gives you hope as you carry this cross, um, and, you know, and the pain you, you endure?
Erik Freiburger: I think I see hope in the relationships I have with, uh, with my disabled friends, with my wife. Um, the way they keep pressing forward, loving God and loving Jesus-
Andrew Camp: Hmm ...
Erik Freiburger: despite the many, um, encounters and experiences like I've just shared.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: Um, and their willingness, [01:01:00] their willingness to show such amazing grace, not only to, to the church, but to their relationship with God.
My heart is always for God first.
You know, this is my personal experience, but, um, I hold onto the institutional church lightly. I love the people who are in them, but I wish that they had a greater imagination to see and to hear- Hmm ... and to feel. But I'm encouraged by my disabled neighbors and friends that they're willing to still hold on to the love for God and the desire for God in the utmost dependence, um, despite being
treated and
repeatedly hurt by the people they wanna be a part of and belong to so, so much. Yeah. Hmm. [01:02:00]
Andrew Camp: And it's a question I ask all of my guests as we begin to wrap up. What's the story you want the church to tell?
Erik Freiburger: The words that are coming to my mind are the ones of Jesus to, uh, to the speaking of the gospel. Um, set out to do the work of allowing those that have eyes to see, to see, and ears to hear, to hear. Hmm. Um,
and to really,
really embrace the greater gospel of building into, uh, the relationships of your neighbors who are disabled. Hmm. Um, and grow with them in, in the journey of sharing the gospel with the world 'cause, uh, [01:03:00] 'cause there's so many of us that deeply desire to want to belong and be a part. Um, we're just waiting for those eyes to see and ears to hear.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. Thank you. Some fun questions about food, um- ... as we wrap up. It's always a weird, sometimes like a, it's a big jolt, a 180, but, um, what's one food you refuse to eat?
Erik Freiburger: Oh, man. When I was young, I don't know what was wrong with her, but my mother had this kick where we had to eat liver once a month.
Andrew Camp: Oh, gosh.
Erik Freiburger: She thought it was healthy.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Erik Freiburger: I, I, I can't stand the stuff. I get one, one smell... I, I even told, told, yeah, uh, my in-laws, "Don't cook that in our house. Um, uh, not, not, not in our house." Yeah. [01:04:00]
Andrew Camp: Fair. Fair. Um, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
Erik Freiburger: Oh. Well, my wife's a good cook, so there's a lot on that list.
Okay. Oh, one of the best things. Um, you know, she makes the world's best chili. I love chili. I-
Andrew Camp: Mm.
Erik Freiburger: I'm a simple guy, but- Yeah ... uh, sh- she makes amazing chili. And to attest, uh, to give a testimony to this, um, uh, she'll make two great big pots when our house church community would get together, and I'd have to beg her to set some aside so we could have some later in the week, because if we didn't, it would entirely disappear.
Andrew Camp: Gosh. Wow. Very cool. Yep. Yeah. Well, that's why you make a big pot of chili, so you can have leftovers and have lunch for the rest of the week, right? Yeah. So it's like... 'Cause chili gets better as the week [01:05:00] progresses, you know? So no, I, I understand. And finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be?
So if Erik had one last meal, uh, what might be on your table?
Erik Freiburger: Hmm.
I'm gonna make a play off of one of your previous guests and say, you know what? The food to me is not as important as who I'm with.
Andrew Camp: I get... Yep. I understand.
Erik Freiburger: So I think, uh, yeah, if I had one last meal to share, I would love for it to be, uh, surrounded by, by my wife, my, my house church, my family.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Erik Freiburger: Um, the food is not, not what's important to me.
Andrew Camp: No, I understand. Yep. Well, Erik, I've [01:06:00] really enjoyed this conversation. I think more than, yeah, words can say. You've challenged me. Your vulnerability, your honesty, your prophetic voice. Um, there's a lot you have, uh, to offer to challenge, I think me, and hopefully the listeners. Um, and if people are interested in learning more, um, where can they find you or where, you know, um, yeah, where could they learn more?
Erik Freiburger: Well, um, yes, I, I do do some podcasting on at thebottomofthewell.com, and I do some writing there. Um, uh, I do, uh, some guest writing with some other groups like Mad Crips, um, and the Canadian Psychology, uh, uh, magazine. Uh, yeah. Um- Here in Calgary, I'm on [01:07:00] socials, so I do tend to do quite a bit of kinda interjecting, uh, quotes and thoughts on Substack and on Facebook.
So yeah, that's where you can find me.
Andrew Camp: Perfect. Yep. And we'll make sure to link those in the show notes.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.
Until next time, bye.