Why High-Achieving Men Quietly Fall Apart (The “Drift” No One Talks About) Most men don’t crash… they drift.

🎙️ Episode 62 – Why High-Achieving Men Quietly Fall Apart (The “Drift” No One Talks About)
Most men don’t crash… they drift.

In this powerful conversation with Larry Hagner—founder of the Dad Edge movement and author of The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood—we break down the silent patterns that cause high-performing men to slowly lose their edge, their purpose, and their connection to what matters most.

From burnout and emotional disconnection…
to pornography, busyness, and quiet dissatisfaction…
this episode exposes what’s really going on beneath the surface.
If you’re a driven man who feels like something is “off”… this one will hit.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
✅ Why most men feel stuck—even when life looks successful
✅ The concept of “The Drift” and how it slowly destroys purpose and connection
✅ How trauma, stress, and unmet needs drive addiction and escape behaviors
✅ Why porn, alcohol, and busyness are often symptoms—not the real problem
✅ The shocking truth about marriage satisfaction (and why most couples struggle)
✅ How to rebuild attraction, connection, and intimacy in your relationship
✅ The BRAVE Man System for restoring structure, purpose, and momentum
✅ Why “balance” is a myth—and what to pursue instead
vPractical steps to take control of your life, marriage, and mindset this week

📖 Get Larry’s Book + Bonuses
Check out The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood and his programs here:
👉 https://thedadedge.com

📘 Get Mark's Free Book
👉 https://escapethecagenow.com/subscribe/

📞 Book a Clarity Call with Mark or Zack
👉 https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

📚 Books & Resources
👉 https://escapethecagenow.com/books/

💬 Comment below:
Where do you feel the “drift” showing up most in your life right now?

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break free from anxiety, burnout, trauma, and destructive patterns—so they can heal deeply, lead powerfully, and become the men they were created to be.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Larry Hagner: 00:00

Mhmm. Is and I'm very open with my wife about all this. I was like, I don't masturbate. I don't. I don't look at porn.

Larry Hagner: 00:06

I save all of that physical, mental, emotional, spiritual energy for you and us. And at first, it was really hard, man. No pun intended. But it was really, really hard to do that. And, but but the fruit of that has been, like, this absolute euphoric physical, sexual, emotional connection with my wife that quite frankly I didn't have before.

Larry Hagner: 00:30

And and I'm also a lot of guys too are like, I can't ask my wife for sex because I'll be rejected. Right? I'm very bold with my wife. You know, like, I'll just say, you know, hey, I'll I'll just like last night, I was like I was like, I'd really love to have sex with you tonight. And I don't do it in a needy way of like, hey, you know, would you wanna maybe like, it's okay if you say no.

Larry Hagner: 00:52

Right? And it's okay if she says no. Yeah. Because my wife has also been very clear with me that if I tell you no, just know this. I'm not saying no to you.

Larry Hagner: 01:01

Very attracted to you. I love when we do it. Just I might not be in that mindset, and it might happen the next day or the day after that. I'm like, yeah. So last night, was a no.

Larry Hagner: 01:10

Right? And she's like and but she responded like this. Not to give you guys too much information, and she's like, but after your podcast tomorrow, I'll be up for it.

Zack Carter: 01:17

Oh, is that why we gotta end early?

Larry Hagner: 01:19

Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Well

Mark Odland: 01:24

This is the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, licensed marriage and family therapist and certified EMDR therapist. And I'm joined by Zack Carter, counselor and coach, where our mission is to help men to heal deep and break free and become a lions God created us to be. And today we're joined by Larry Hagner founder of the Dad Edge Podcast and the Dad Edge Movement where he's helping men to live and lead legendary lives. And through his work Larry empowers men to build stronger marriages, create deeper connections with their kids, even take ownership of their health, their finances, and step fully into the leadership with their families.

Mark Odland: 02:05

And so today, we're honored to have Larry with us. He's the author of the book, The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood, where we're gonna dive into today and talk more about these concepts. Larry, welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast.

Larry Hagner: 02:19

Man, what a what a cool I I love how you guys intertwine faith into this. Obviously, I'm a huge faith based person, and, I just love how you guys do that.

Mark Odland: 02:27

I appreciate that, man. I it's always interesting, right, when you're when you're serving guys and and creating things. It's how, how broad to cast that net. Right? It's like, you know, I resonate with the faith piece.

Mark Odland: 02:40

I know Zach does too. And then you're open to working with all guys, but then sometimes when those questions of meaning and purpose and faith come into the picture more even more fully, it it's kinda like supercharges the the conversation and the and the concept. So so I appreciate you sharing that.

Larry Hagner: 02:56

You bet. Yeah. Thank

Mark Odland: 02:58

you. Well, I know Zach and I have got so many questions we'd love to ask you, but we gotta gotta narrow it down. Right? We gotta gotta start somewhere. So the the first thing I'd like to tackle is alright.

Mark Odland: 03:10

So here at Lion Counseling, Zach and I, we we specialize in working with with guys, and in particular, guys who are doing pretty well. They're they're they're pretty high achieving by the world standards. But when they get to us, a lot of times they're feeling stressed out, burned out. Something in their life feels like it's maybe starting to crumble, maybe even starting to fall apart. And, so when they when they get to us, they're almost already on the edge of feeling like things are collapsing in some ways.

Mark Odland: 03:40

And it made me think about this concept, that you've been talking about, and I think it's part of your book, is this concept of drift. Guy is kinda drifting, and it makes me wonder how, how you see that happening in guys and if there might be an opportunity for people to, for you to put us out of business essentially to catch this drift before they get to us.

Larry Hagner: 04:06

I don't know if there man, that's such a good question. You know, I I don't know if there's vaccination for that one, so to speak. I know that term is like really triggering for some people, but drift is I think something that is, and you guys are faith based, I love that. I think it's like something really sinister that happens. It's like there's a slow bleed.

Larry Hagner: 04:27

And I think no matter how well you're operating, right? And, here's the funny thing. In times where I felt like, you know, even this journey and I write about it, where I feel like, oh my gosh, everything is going right and nothing is going wrong. That's actually the beginning of the drift even for me is like you you kind of take your foot off the gas, you get really kind of comfortable. And before I dive back in before I dive back into this, I have to ask this question to Zach.

Larry Hagner: 04:59

Zach, there are two movie stars that when you jumped on the screen that, like, you completely jumped off the screen. I was like, he looks like these two guys. Who do people say that you look like?

Zack Carter: 05:07

I've heard Jason Gyllenhaal and Tobey Maguire. In high school, I'm like I'm like at a urinal. This dude comes up beside me. He's like, dude, you look like Spider Man. I'm like, this

Zack Carter: 05:18

is an inappropriate time to

Zack Carter: 05:19

tell me I look like Tobey Maguire, but thank you.

Larry Hagner: 05:23

Yeah. It's like, I can shoot a web out of this thing. Let me show you.

Zack Carter: 05:26

Where are these mess coming from? And then Aaron

Larry Hagner: 05:29

Rodgers is

Mark Odland: 05:29

is Dude.

Larry Hagner: 05:33

Yeah. Who who did I remind you of, though? No. So Jake Gyllenhaal was definitely one. Okay.

Larry Hagner: 05:39

Mhmm. I can definitely see Aaron Rodgers. And if you shaved your face, maybe the Tobey Maguire thing. Yeah. But but the other person is John Krasinski.

Zack Carter: 05:47

Yes. I think I yeah.

Mark Odland: 05:49

I have

Zack Carter: 05:49

I'd give that vibe. Yeah. I hey, man. Yeah. I'll take all those compliments.

Zack Carter: 05:53

We'll just combine all those guys, and that's me. Perfect. I appreciate that.

Larry Hagner: 05:58

Especially John Krzan go ahead.

Zack Carter: 05:59

Especially him? Okay. That's nice, man. Well so, like, I just could we define the drift as you, like Yeah. Begin to give your answer?

Zack Carter: 06:07

Because I'd love I'd love for our audience to know, like, how do you define the drift, and then, like, what does it look like practically?

Larry Hagner: 06:12

Absolutely. Yeah. And I would say John Krasinski in thirteen hours when he had a beer.

Mark Odland: 06:16

Oh, that's solid.

Zack Carter: 06:17

Dude, like, the manliest version of John Krasinski. Dude.

Larry Hagner: 06:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 06:21

Yeah. Larry, we're gonna have you back. Dude, you know you you know how to get a second invitation, bro? We're gonna lock you in.

Larry Hagner: 06:29

Oh, man. But no, the drift is what we kind of call the wash, rinse, repeat. It's the everything is good, everything is fine, everything is busy. Right? Those are the three questions.

Larry Hagner: 06:42

Those are the three answers we like to answer to every question comes our way. How's life? Oh, it's good. How's work? Oh, it's busy.

Larry Hagner: 06:48

How's the wife and kids? They're fine. You know? And, but every day kind of feels a bit like Groundhog Day, right, to where I think a man sort of sometimes comes to the realization he's in the drift. And usually a question that comes up for a man is, didn't really expect my life to feel like this.

Larry Hagner: 07:06

I didn't really expect it to look like this. And and the big question is is what is the this? The this is where like, you know, I think it's eighty two percent of men go to a job every single day that they hate, despise, or they dislike in some way, shape, or form. So that's 18% of men that actually love what they do. Right?

Larry Hagner: 07:25

And even if we love what we do, like I love what I do. Right? But at the same time, there are things in my business I hate doing, I despise doing. But, you know, there there's a there's a, I think, a thief of joy, right, in fulfillment that comes when a man is doing work. And especially if eight eight out of 10 men are feeling that, there there's tremendous burden there.

Larry Hagner: 07:44

Did did you wanna say something, Mark?

Mark Odland: 07:46

No. I'm just I'm just feeling that as you're saying that. You know? I I'm, it kinda breaks my heart, honestly, because and and I and I come from a place where I've experienced that that maybe four or five years ago, and and that was that's a whole different podcast and story about what kind of gave birth to Lion Counseling and and what Zach and I are doing now. And also knowing what that's like, but also being in a place where right now I I do love what I do and feeling so blessed by that and and wanting that for other guys.

Mark Odland: 08:15

And, I I think the term that's come up with some of my clients is it feels like something is slowly crushing their soul. And and that's just, and because I think purpose and and making the world a better place is so, instinctual for us as men that, if it feels like that's not firing on all cylinders or or even if you'd feel like you're making a difference, but you're not experiencing the the the the joy and the satisfaction that comes with that and not being able to joy enjoy your family, it just feels like from what you're saying, it just sounds like it's this kind of blah. You're just on the treadmill. You're kinda on auto autopilot almost.

Larry Hagner: 08:58

Yeah. Yeah. That's the that you know, it's like the drift. Right? Autopilot.

Mark Odland: 09:01

There you go.

Larry Hagner: 09:02

It's like I'm I'm drifting. Yeah. You you nailed it. You know? And that that I'm so I'm so glad you shared that, you know, because I think that's the career aspect.

Larry Hagner: 09:09

So if you really look at a man's life, it's how I provide, the career I'm in. It's my marriage, it's my kids, and it's my body and it's my mind. And so let me just share a couple other things. A lot of guys, the divorce rate's fifty percent or like fifty one percent. But John Gottman did a study on couples that actually stay together, and and his statistics are really, really fascinating.

Larry Hagner: 09:33

Fifty the fifty percent of couples that stay together. Right? So they're actually divided up equally, he saw into like three different camps. And those camps are camp one is is, oh my gosh, this is pretty darn great. Right?

Larry Hagner: 09:46

I really wouldn't change hardly anything. Like we've got everything is aligned, our intimacy, our connection, our friendship, even our individuality feels really, really good. The second camp, the next one third is their roommates. Everything is logistical, right? So it's like, we call that the partnership loop where all your conversations with your wife are more like the bills, the roles, the chores, the things that we have to do, all the logistics, but there's not a whole lot of connection.

Larry Hagner: 10:12

There's not a whole lot of intimacy and there's not a whole lot of physical intimacy either. It's more like we're under the same roof, but we're kind of spinning in different orbits and we're not really connected. The last one third of couples that stay together are completely emotionally physically disconnected. Right? They're living under the same roof, living two separate lives.

Larry Hagner: 10:30

And they're just usually the the top two, reasons that Gottman found that those couples stay together is we got number one, we gotta do it for the kids. I'm sure you guys have heard that one. And number two, it's financially devastating if we legally get divorced. So it's like those two things stay in the way. But if you really break down those numbers, right?

Larry Hagner: 10:47

And I'm not a mathematician. That's about 12% of people that walk down the aisle can actually say, our relationship's pretty darn great. And that's that's another area fulfilling for men.

Mark Odland: 10:58

Dang.

Larry Hagner: 10:58

The next area is kids. Right? So I I really gotta hand it to men. I think you guys probably see this as much as I do. You guys the three of us were probably raised in a generation where the dad was a provider.

Larry Hagner: 11:12

Right? And he probably he might've been involved, but not all that involved. Right? And I don't wanna speak for everybody, but I think that that's a large percentage of of men and even moms too of what that dad was like in their life. And I really gotta hand it to men.

Larry Hagner: 11:28

We see more guys now on school field trips than we ever have before. We see more guys in in the the parent in in the bleachers watching games, right, than we ever have before. We even have parents and this never happened when I was growing up. And I do this now too. But parents come to the practices and watch.

Larry Hagner: 11:47

Like, you know, when I was a kid, you know, mom drops you off at practice and peace out. I'll see you in an hour and a I'm gonna go do my own thing. Right? But but dads really have this unbelievable desire, I think, in this generation to step up. But I think the biggest gap that I see, I'm sure you do too, is, well, I don't really know exactly what that looks like.

Larry Hagner: 12:05

I feel like I'm guessing. So that area feels unfulfilling. So men feel like, hey, I'm leaving leaving a lot on the table here, but I don't know how to access it. And then the fourth one is more vitality. And in our community, vitality is actually threefold.

Larry Hagner: 12:19

So it's body, it's mind, and the output is energy. So what am I putting into my body from a nutrition standpoint? What am I doing with my body through movement? The other thing is this one too, and this one's really fiery and triggering for people. But all you have to do is go on social media for a good three minutes, and you're triggered by something that you see.

Larry Hagner: 12:40

You know, the left is saying this. The right is saying this. Trump's doing this, the liberals are saying this, we're we're at war. You you're on social media for for three minutes, and suddenly you're probably pretty spun up with anxiety. Right?

Larry Hagner: 12:51

And then that the output of that is, I don't really feel great, and my my hamster wheel is spinning, and I don't really feel connected to my kids. Then the last thing I'll say is the physical part. I've been in fitness for thirty years. It is an anchor, it's therapy for me, it's part of my daily regimen. I don't think you need a six pack to be a dad.

Larry Hagner: 13:11

I don't. I think it's like one in every 25,000 guys actually have a six pack and a lot of guys that I think we think of fitness as that it has to be that. No, no, it doesn't. But I think that there's an element where a man feels pretty darn fulfilled and confident when he just feels better in his body. And so those are the areas that would that I think cause the drift and guys are scratching their head of like, I don't have time to do this.

Larry Hagner: 13:36

And I also don't have necessarily the knowledge or the skills to do this. And the drift just and that what it looks like is, I guess I'll just keep going the way I'm going because it's what I'm supposed to do, but it doesn't feel good for guys. Wow.

Zack Carter: 13:49

And and, Larry, can I ask, is is drift is it a thing that builds up momentum, or is it like a steady thing? Because where my mind goes when I'm reading the drift and I'm thinking about how guys drift is so my primary specialty is around behavioral addiction, specifically around pornography. And so a lot of times what'll happen is like, we'll drift away from the pornography. Like we're building momentum to like move away from it, but then one step after another, get back to getting closer and closer to it. So, hey, I'm going to look at women in bikinis and then maybe rated R movie with nudity.

Zack Carter: 14:28

Then it escalates, escalates, escalates. So they drift towards unhealthy habits. Does this conceptualization you have encompass drifting towards unhealthy behaviors as well?

Larry Hagner: 14:43

Absolutely. Addictions, weed is now legalized in so many states now. I mean, I was in the gym yesterday and this dude walked past me and I was like, holy cow, dude. It's really common for people to even smoke weed or pop a gummy before you go into the gym. That one, I don't understand.

Larry Hagner: 15:05

But yeah, I never really got into drugs and alcohol too much, but porn was my thing. When I was deep in the drift, let's face it. And Zach, you probably know this and Mark, you probably do too, but it's not a porn problem usually. It's a discomfort problem. And it's just like, I'm stressed out, I'm overwhelmed, maybe I'm not getting my needs met, I'll just I wanna escape.

Larry Hagner: 15:27

And that escape can even look you know, it can look like porn, it can look like alcohol, it can look like drugs, it can even this this one's this one I have to be watchful of, busyness. The more busy I am and the less I have to sit with, like, my own thoughts and reflections, the better. So, like, I'm here to tell you guys porn used to be my thing. It's not anymore. But busyness is something that I could easily drift into.

Larry Hagner: 15:50

And one last thing I'll say about this is one of the reasons we're so you know, when I coach men, I was like, you gotta be a guardian of your mind and eyes because it will trigger you into something. Like, I'm on Instagram. There are beautiful women all over Instagram. Right? And Instagram knows that I love fitness.

Larry Hagner: 16:09

So what does it show me? It shows a bunch of fit dudes and fit women in like really skimpy clothes a lot of times. There's a part I think they actually did somewhat of a study on this, but they found that one of the biggest launching pads for men to go from something to porn was Instagram.

Zack Carter: 16:26

Not surprising. Interesting. Dang. Yeah. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 16:28

Yeah. It's not surprising.

Mark Odland: 16:33

Wow. Do you have a follow-up on that, Zach, around the behavioral front?

Zack Carter: 16:38

No. That was my main curiosity around the drift. And so I I love how, Larry dude, I love how you're saying yes. And it's not just porn. It's it's it could be weed.

Zack Carter: 16:46

It could be alcohol. It could be food. There's so many different things that it can begin moving us towards.

Mark Odland: 16:53

Yeah. For sure. I mean, I I'm really resonating with what you're what you're saying about just the holistic approach for, you know, how you're conceptualizing things with the guys you work with. And I'm I'm I told Zach this. I'm coming fresh off of, one of Jocca Willink's Muster conferences in Nashville, which was awesome, man, by the way.

Mark Odland: 17:16

And literally doing the four forty four thirty workout in the morning in a parking lot, doing burpees on hard hard concrete and gravel and trying to eliminate all the excuses. He's like, no. You don't have to have fancy gym equipment. We've got a parking lot. And and, you know, as therapists, it's funny.

Mark Odland: 17:35

Like, I have a running joke with my buddy up here. He he's kinda like Jocko, embodied. And, you know, and I I'm I'm you know, do the feelings thing. I've got the emotions. Gotta be in touch with your feelings.

Mark Odland: 17:46

I'm a therapist. Right? So I think there is a I think there's a give and take there for sure. But but one of the one of the principles they talked a lot about, through his team at Echelon Front, which I found interesting as a therapist, was this principle of detachment. This idea of taking a step back to see the big picture and then stepping forward again in in a and taking action in the appropriate way.

Mark Odland: 18:12

Right? And I'm like, man, what is it about that that ties in psychologically? And and I I like alliteration. Right? So I'm thinking about drift.

Mark Odland: 18:20

I'm thinking about detachment. And then sometimes what we see in the counseling world is dissociation. And because at first, I'm like, man, is Jocca promoting a good thing here to detach when so many guys already seem to and I think what I came down to ultimately was if you detach as a skill with intentionally, it can serve a really important purpose to detach from the anxious feelings and the ruminating thoughts and the lies and these behaviors and step back on purpose in order to again reengage. That's very different, I feel like, than someone who is kind of numbing out. They're kind of drifting into a dissociative state or a detached state of being that's disconnected from the people they love, disconnected from their true selves, who they're, you know, who they're created to be.

Mark Odland: 19:11

And, you know, Zach's a big CBT and addiction guy. My thing is this thing called EMDR therapy, that that I use for trauma, for treating PTSD, childhood wounds, that kind of thing. And I guess one of my curiosities for you is have you noticed any, I don't know if patterns is the right word, but gained any patterns or insights about the way that past experiences that guys have had for better or for worse with their own parents, their own dads impacts their ability to fight the drift and to kind of put things into action. And, I mean, that's the next question, I guess, is, you know, you have this insight that I'm drifting. Now I'm guessing that there are things that we can do intentionally to try to move move away from that drift and to do something different.

Mark Odland: 20:02

And I'm just curious about the way those past hurts could get in the way. So what what do you what do you see, Larry, with the guys you work with?

Larry Hagner: 20:11

Well, first of all, you and I, you would probably have a field day with my mind Oh, yeah? In my past just just because of like kind of where I came from and things I've experienced and things that I've done to cope. I had this revolving door of father figures growing up. I don't know how much you guys know about my story, but my biological father was out. They got divorced when I was like nine months old.

Larry Hagner: 20:33

Never even knew that he was never knew that I even had a dad. My mom got remarried when I was five. The guy that legally adopted me, and I actually thought how that's how dads came to be. I thought, god, moms go out and find dads. And my dad came around.

Larry Hagner: 20:48

And, like, I literally still to this day have the same last name he does. I don't have my biological father's last name. And, you know, so there was this revolving door of men that came in and out of my life. My mom was married a total of three times every single different name, different face, but same guy. Abusive, toxic, physically abusive, drunks, guys doing drugs.

Larry Hagner: 21:09

Like, it was a freaking crazy. And unfortunately, my mom still to this day, bless her heart, I love her, but we we don't have much of a relationship. She still struggles with alcohol to this day. And so there was a lot of trauma there. I didn't even actually start a relationship with my biological father till I was 30.

Larry Hagner: 21:28

And that's actually only because he walked into the same coffee shop that I was sitting in, and I knew who he Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, I I did spend some time with him when I was 12. That's a longer story I won't get into for time. But, like, I I I found out at 10 that I had a biological father because I learned about the birds and the bees.

Larry Hagner: 21:45

And so I started asking questions, and my mom told me. And then at 12 years old, I met him for the first time. We had this six month relationship. He only lived three miles from us. Didn't know that.

Larry Hagner: 21:56

He was remarried at the time. I had a two year old son, another one on the way. And we we spent time together every single week for six months. And then after that, it was too much, and he was out again and left again. And so, like, I overate as a kid.

Larry Hagner: 22:09

You know? I got into porn. I never really got into drinking, and drugs were was something I've always stayed away from. I just you know, I I tried weed in college. It wasn't my really my thing.

Larry Hagner: 22:19

But, you know, for me, it was it was busyness, it was porn, and it was food. And I'm I'm here to tell you that I've kicked the porn habit, you know, and I'm I'm about, I guess, I don't know. I don't even remember the last time I looked at it, it's been years. And but it was still like something that was showing up in my life even when I was doing this work Sure. In times that were bad.

Larry Hagner: 22:38

But I found that, like and I don't even know if I'm answering your question the best way, but I maybe I'm just putting it in my perspective. When I get in those states because I'm one of those people, like, a lot of a lot of my best friends will tell me, like, when something bad happens, I will always go to worst case scenario in my mind. Mhmm. And I tend to panic. Right?

Larry Hagner: 22:58

So I catastrophize. Right? That's what I do. And I think a lot of that had to do with, you know, growing up and seeing things that I did. Like, it things would get as bad or worse than I would project.

Larry Hagner: 23:10

So now I just kinda probably project a really dark future. When I get in those when I get in those mindsets, I wanna be really, really busy because I don't wanna think about it. I want to drink even though I'm not a big drinker. I I'm more tempted to look at porn than I usually am. I have a very open relationship with all my boys, especially my oldest who's 20.

Larry Hagner: 23:32

And, you know, like, he'll openly tell me, you know, about things in in that situation. I'll keep it private, and I will relate to him and be like, hey, man. Like, last week, your dad was pretty stretched out. Like, I was thinking, like, that'd be kinda cool to go do right now. And he'll look me and be like, you're married mom.

Larry Hagner: 23:50

I'm like, let me tell you something right now, Married men probably do it more than single men do. I was like, I don't know that for a fact, but I know how many guys I know do it. I was like, just because you're married and have a wife, that doesn't mean you're immune to that. And I and then we go back to the conversation. I was like, Ethan, it's not a porn thing.

Larry Hagner: 24:06

It's a comfort thing, you know, where I just wanna go soothe and not think about something that I'm catastrophizing about. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I tend when in those states Mhmm. And I see this in men, a lot of guys too, that when they're really, really triggered, even with past trauma and things are gonna get really bad, they they wanna escape a little bit.

Mark Odland: 24:25

Yeah. I mean, I I think well, first of all, thanks for your vulnerability sharing that. And I know you've shared it probably in other contexts as well, but I think it's just it's freeing for us as guys to to be honest. Like, it's so cool what you're doing with your son. And I I'm sure, you know, they look up to us.

Mark Odland: 24:43

Our kids look up to us. But if we pretend to be perfect, it's not gonna I mean, that's gonna shatter too. I mean, they're gonna figure they're gonna figure it out that we're not. Right? But, man, that's beautiful that you have that relationship to be able to do that.

Mark Odland: 24:58

I think I think I would definitely, concur with what you're saying that it's about comfort, and I know Zach sees this as well. And that whatever that feeling is, whether it's the feeling of the worst case scenario is gonna happen rising up inside me, the, like, anxiety or fear, or whether it's a feeling of worthlessness or shame rising up inside of us, and now we've gotta kinda make that feeling go away somehow. In my experience, yeah, it does seem like there's typically one or two core negative beliefs that we carry as men, from our woundedness, but also because we were really resilient creative kids. And we developed that operating system to emotionally survive what we were going through. And sometimes we haven't gotten the full software update to realize that that in some ways, that's still working for us.

Mark Odland: 25:53

In some ways, it's not. Right? And and I think it's half the battle to be able to recognize it, like like what you're saying for what it is, that there's certain things that trigger us. And if we are aware of that, now we can say, what do

Zack Carter: 26:10

I what do I wanna do with

Mark Odland: 26:11

that next? Right? And so yeah. Thanks for thanks for for sharing that.

Zack Carter: 26:17

Yeah. I'd like to bounce off that real quick and then Please. Have a follow-up question for you, Larry. Yeah. So if you if y'all are out there and y'all are struggling with pornography, Larry's a 100% right that negative emotions could be a huge driving force towards pornography.

Zack Carter: 26:33

We do want to look at what's underneath the surface, but I have had clients as well that they use it when times are good. So they use it as a form of celebration. Like, man, I feel like I made it through the week. I did a great job. I'm going to look at porn.

Zack Carter: 26:48

They don't know consciously that's what's happening. A lot of guys right after a vacation will have a relapse. They're like, I don't understand, Zack. Life is going good right now. Why did I have a relapse?

Zack Carter: 26:57

And a lot of times it can also be tied to good feelings. Last thing to look out for is that it can also be tied to environmental triggers. So if the bathroom is the one place you can get privacy, the bathroom can become a trigger in and of itself. Or we know from classical conditioning in Pavlov's dogs, you know, the dogs hear the bell, they start to salivate. If guys hear the front door close, their brain says, oh, I'm alone.

Zack Carter: 27:23

When I'm alone, I look at porn. It's time to look at porn. So, this stuff can happen whether you're feeling good, bad, or neutral. Like, it's crazy, man. This stuff is insidious.

Zack Carter: 27:34

But following up with the Larry, following up with the question on on trauma, one of the other things Mark was saying was, how do you talk to guys and get guys to move past the drift and accomplish the things that they desire to get accomplished regardless of trauma? What do you do to move them out of that?

Larry Hagner: 28:00

Great question. And Zack, I got to tell you, man, thank you so much for sharing that. As you said that, was like, Oh, wow. Yeah, I've done that too. It's like, Oh, it's not a bad thing.

Larry Hagner: 28:10

It's like, Hey, it's a good thing. I'll celebrate. Mhmm. But and yeah, the the triggers too. I just wanna comment on that before I talk about a system that we use.

Larry Hagner: 28:20

You know, one of the things that and I didn't know this when I was in it, like when I was looking at porn because I was, you know, still married looking at porn. And the one thing that I found through a really good mentor of mine was like, what would it be like for you to save all that physical, mental, and emotional energy for your wife? And my first response, joking with him, I was like, it's impossible. Yeah. It's impossible, man.

Larry Hagner: 28:44

He's like, well, is it? He's like, you know, but there there has been a lot of fruit that's come out of me being away from porn. And I I think a lot of times when we think of a porn free life, we're giving guys the one focus of thing that they can't do. It's kind like, well, if I'm taking a break from alcohol, all I can think about is I can't drink alcohol. I can't can't drink alcohol.

Larry Hagner: 29:03

What we focus on grows, what we focus on expands. And a lot of times the brain doesn't hear don't don't do that. Right? It's like, don't think of an elephant. No matter what you do right now, don't think of an elephant in your front yard wearing a pink hat.

Larry Hagner: 29:14

You can't help but think about it. So giving you guys a different trajectory on that Mhmm. Is and I'm very open with my wife about all this. I was like, I don't masturbate. I don't.

Larry Hagner: 29:23

I don't look at porn. I save all of that physical, mental, emotional, spiritual energy for you and us. And at first, it was really hard, man. No pun intended. But it was really, really hard to do that.

Larry Hagner: 29:36

And, but but the fruit of that has been, like, this absolute euphoric physical, sexual, emotional connection with my wife that quite frankly I didn't have before. And and I'm also a lot of guys too are like, well, I can't ask my wife for sex because I'll be rejected. Right? I'm very bold with my wife. You know?

Larry Hagner: 29:57

Like, I'll just say, you know, hey. I'll I'll just like last night, I was like I was like, I'd really love to have sex with you tonight. And I don't do it in a needy way of like, hey, you know, would you wanna maybe like, it's okay if you say no. Right? And it's okay if she says no.

Larry Hagner: 30:13

Yeah. Because my wife has also been very clear with me that if I tell you no, just know this. I'm not saying no to you. I'm very attracted to you. I love when we do it.

Larry Hagner: 30:22

Just I might not be in that mindset, and it might happen the next day or the day after that. I'm like, yeah. So last night, was a no. Right? And she's like and but she responded like this.

Larry Hagner: 30:31

Not to give you guys too much information, and she's like, but after your podcast tomorrow, I'll be up for it.

Zack Carter: 30:36

Oh, is that why we gotta end early?

Larry Hagner: 30:38

Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I end early all the time.

Larry Hagner: 30:41

But

Zack Carter: 30:42

Exactly what I was gonna say.

Zack Carter: 30:43

Yeah. I love that because what she's saying

Zack Carter: 30:45

is not no. It's not now. Like and that's a big difference.

Larry Hagner: 30:49

It is. Yeah, it is. Trust it, plus it's more about the situation, it's not about the person. I think that's the hardest thing for me to get as a man. So I just wanted to share that real quick.

Larry Hagner: 31:01

But as far as I love John Eldridge. I'm sure you guys know John Eldridge.

Mark Odland: 31:04

Yep.

Larry Hagner: 31:05

Yeah. So in in his book, Wild at Heart, he says men need three things to be fulfilled. Right? One is a battle to fight, an adventure to be had, and a beauty to rescue. I the the beauty to rescue part kind of feels like a bit of codependence for me a little bit, so I always like to say a beauty to love.

Larry Hagner: 31:22

Right? Mhmm. But men need a battle to fight. They need an adventure to be had. In in our community, what we do is we follow what's called the brave man system.

Larry Hagner: 31:31

Yeah. The brave man system I'm in the process of trademarking this right now. The brave man system stands for something. So the b is bond. That's your marriage.

Larry Hagner: 31:39

The r is raise. That's fatherhood. The a is amplify. That's your business if you're a business owner, or if you're not a business owner, that's your money and your wealth. V is vitality.

Larry Hagner: 31:49

We already talked about that threefold, physical, mind, and energy. E, this one shocks a lot of guys, enjoy. And they're like, you're gonna hold me accountable to SMART goals for joy? I'm like, absolutely. They're like, I why?

Larry Hagner: 32:03

And I'm like, if you're at a carnival with it with with one of your kids and the carnival only takes cash, and we live in a in a society where there is no cash anymore like a lot of times, if you don't have $5 to give your kid, you don't have $5 if you don't have $5 with you, you have no money to give your kid. The same is true for joy. If you have no joy in your life, you have no joy to give or very little joy to give. The the man part, m is for movement. So daily movement of some kind.

Larry Hagner: 32:29

It could be jujitsu. It can be a gym. It could be a walk. It could be yoga. It can be whatever it is that you want as long as you're moving your body.

Larry Hagner: 32:37

A is action. That is, motivation doesn't always spark action. Sometimes it can. We're motivated to do the things we want to do, but we're not necessarily motivated to do the things we don't wanna do. So in ours in our group, the code is if you don't feel like doing that thing, go do it anyway.

Larry Hagner: 32:53

Right? Because action usually, how many times have you gone to the gym, you don't feel like going? You're in there for ten minutes, you're like, wow, this is actually this I feel pretty good.

Zack Carter: 32:59

Every time.

Larry Hagner: 33:00

So yeah. And then the end is network. This is where I think a lot of men, die on the vine. Network is your pack. It's your tribe.

Larry Hagner: 33:09

It's your community, but it has to be the right community. Iron sharpens iron, but only if you're close enough to strike. Lone wolf stars, packs thrive. And there's 70% of men, you probably know this in your practice, seventy percent of men report being lonely, and most men do not have a 3AM friend. You know, a lot of our a lot of our friendships are those rusty relationships as Steven Manfield's quotes in his book Steven Manfield's book of manly men.

Larry Hagner: 33:35

Rusty is like that good find busy. You know? And we're drinking a beer. We're with our college buddies. We're talking about old times.

Larry Hagner: 33:41

We're we're not getting deep at all. But that network is making sure that you have those men in your life, and we have men in our community. I have guys in my life like that. All of our clients do too. And the but to have that network and the most important thing is that aligned vision and goals and having the right men.

Larry Hagner: 33:57

So the system that we follow, and I'll end with this, is we actually hold men accountable to creating what we call missions in the brave system. So we we give guys three SMART goals or they we don't give them to them. We help them create it. Yep. Three SMART goals for bond per week in your marriage, three for fatherhood in in your in with your kids, you know, three for your business or wealth, three for your vitality, and three for joy.

Larry Hagner: 34:23

And we gamify it. And each each goal has to be a SMART goal, And these are these are actually, like, micro things. They don't have to be grandiose. Like, if you look at my what we call the general's tent, this is our planning. It is it's these goals are like, I'm gonna go have breakfast with my kid before school.

Larry Hagner: 34:42

I'm gonna go play catch with him out in the backyard. I'm gonna take my wife out on a date. Maybe it's I'm gonna put a post it note on her mirror by Friday. You know, something like that. These are small things, but they're they're they're they're little things that give that man that battle and give that man that adventure.

Larry Hagner: 34:58

Wow.

Mark Odland: 34:59

Very cool, man.

Larry Hagner: 35:00

Thank you.

Zack Carter: 35:01

I I love how you you lay that out, that that covers so many when we when we talk about good mental health, so many different categories that all need to be hit. And you're completely right that men tend to have way less connections with people, especially outside of their wife. Once they get married, that's usually their primary connection, which is why usually divorce is harder on men. It can often be harder on men than women because women usually have a bunch of people that they can go to. And then men end up like crazy isolated.

Zack Carter: 35:33

They're like, shoot. I'm about I'm by myself. I don't have anyone to talk to. So, yeah, what what you're saying definitely tracks. Where my mind goes with the method that you laid out is balance a thing?

Zack Carter: 35:49

Like when I you know, we're building a YouTube channel here, we're building a business that takes a lot of time. I've got a 16 old daughter. I'm married. Once she's three, five, 10, like those years are gone. At the same time, we're building something here.

Zack Carter: 36:09

And so like, do you tell men what they need to prioritize in the system that you've created?

Larry Hagner: 36:16

That is such a great question. And no, I really don't think there is balance. I think I think in fact, I think most of our lives as much as we strive for balance, I think it's a it's a goalpost we'll never quite get to. And if if balance is is the is the goalpost, I I I really think that that's a that's a false horizon out there. I think you can have optimization though.

Larry Hagner: 36:38

Right? So you might so like for instance, I Zach, I love your your analogy there. It's like there are times like right now, we we just got done with a three day men's event. You know, I had to put a lot of work into that and a lot of even the the balance even in my business alone. You know, it's like if I could give numbers, and these aren't right numbers, but it's like 40% of my attention for the past six weeks has been on making sure that the men's forge, our event, was was gonna be a hit, all the details, all the things that had to happen.

Larry Hagner: 37:07

Right? And there was a few other things that suffered a little bit because of that. Right? Because you're you're taking your eye off the ball of other things. You know?

Larry Hagner: 37:15

And so balance, I don't think will ever happen for a man, but you can have optimization. But I think one of the most important aspects and one of the most useful aspects of the brave man system is every week, yes, you're planning your general's tent, which is what we call those 15 missions, three in each of those five categories, you're also doing an after action review of of the week before. So, like, for me, man, I've got a 20 year old son. I've got an 18 year old son, 12 year old son, 10 year old son, a wife, a full time business, 500 plus members in one of our, communities, 34 members in our business entrepreneur program, along with about eight one on one clients right now. Like, that's a lot going on.

Larry Hagner: 37:57

So when I'm in my general's tent, let's just take my kids, for example. Right? And I'm planning what I'm gonna do with with one of them or three of them or whatever else. I'm always looking back to, like, what are the what does the last week look like? What does the last two weeks look like?

Larry Hagner: 38:11

What is what does this week look like? Who needs my attention? Why? And what am I gonna do? Right?

Larry Hagner: 38:16

So I don't know if I'll ever achieve balance. I don't spend the same amount of time with each one of my four boys every single week. I don't even spend probably the most consistent time with my wife every single week. And and I certainly like, there are other things in the business and in in that I need to focus on that other things suffer. But what that gives me is a weekly after action review with with planning that I can make things as optimal as I possibly can.

Larry Hagner: 38:43

And going back to the Drift, and I'll close with this, is most people don't take the time to do that. Right? And what we do is we tend to just go week after day by day, week after week, season by season, just simply reacting to everything that comes our way, and that life feels really, really terrible. Mhmm. On top of it, we'll look back.

Larry Hagner: 39:02

My last thing I'll say is this. My my 18 year old is about ready to leave for college in ninety two days. Not that anybody is really counting. And, you know, so as I look at those ninety two days, right, I'm looking to see how can I optimize these ninety two days with him week after week, right, versus, like, August 5, again, who's counting? When I drop him off at University of Arkansas, I'm not gonna be like, oh my god.

Larry Hagner: 39:27

This snuck up on me. The time flu, the summer flu, what I didn't do anything. Oh my gosh. I didn't do the things I wanted to do. This gives me that opportunity to do that.

Mark Odland: 39:35

That is beautiful. I I I'm feeling you, man, because I've got a our oldest, my 18 year old daughter, is is going to college this fall, and I've got the same feeling. We're just counting the days. And

Larry Hagner: 39:47

God bless you.

Mark Odland: 39:48

Yeah. I know. It's it's it's good it's good stuff, but it seems like this Braveman system is a powerful way to focus guys on different important areas of life. But then to break it down in such a practical way where they don't are are less likely, hopefully, to go into that all or nothing thinking of this is New Year's resolution time. I might give it hit it hard for two weeks and then fizzle out.

Mark Odland: 40:18

It's like, this is a system that has follow-up implementation and support, which sounds awesome, man. I I I just really it's very cool that that's, something that now is that something you're still developing, or is that that system already kind of going going forth?

Larry Hagner: 40:34

Oh, it's it's been going forth for for about a year and a half. I've been using it for two years. I use it so I use it with my one one clients. Nice. I also use it in I would my my my personal groups, I run three groups of ten minute time through that system.

Larry Hagner: 40:50

And we also use it in our business owner mastermind, which is called the the business boardroom brotherhood. We don't necessarily use it in the alliance. That's our group of, like, 500 men. We more do skills drills with them. So we have, like, three different types of community calls in there.

Larry Hagner: 41:07

So we have what's called the tactical agenda, which we're teaching them skills. And kind of the funny thing is the month of May, we're actually it's it's vitality. So it's in that system, but it's not we're not the guys don't go in and plan their their general stents because that takes a lot of work on my side and my other coaches with the guys who do that. But and then there's also specialty calls like marriage calls and parenting calls and fitness calls. And then there's what we call open forum, which guys can just come to whatever you know, they come to that call with whatever's on their mind and heart.

Larry Hagner: 41:36

We help them with that. So we use it in our programs. I use it, you know, three out of four programs, but I don't we don't use it in the alliance. I think, a lot of guys come in there, and that might be a a big bite for them. But if they want more, they can work with me, or they can join the business mastermind if they're an owner.

Mark Odland: 41:53

That's awesome. Well, I mean, it seems like you've got a lot of, lot of ways to meet guys where they're at, basically. And that that's a that's a huge blessing. And I'm guessing, you know, after this I mean, we could talk for hours, but I know I'm gonna be respectful of, the time with the we have coming up the rest of the day. For Zach and I, it might be appointments.

Mark Odland: 42:11

For you, it might be something else. I have to rewind to see what that thing might be. But but, but all that being said, I'm guessing, the guys who are listening right now, the wheels are turning. They're feeling a tug on their heart. They might even be thinking maybe there could be something that needs to change in my life, something I I want to change.

Mark Odland: 42:32

Again, if it's something that's more on the addiction trauma front, of course, you know, you guys could find us at escapethecagenow.com where we are happy to schedule a clarity call with guys and and, and see if legit counseling and therapy is something that's needed, to take the next step and maybe even be able to better implement some of the things that that that you're doing with guys. And, on your front, if people are thinking to themselves, man, like, these programs Larry's offering sound amazing, or or the book. I know we've kinda touched on principles from the book. We haven't really, done a deep dive into the book itself. But, if people wanna find your book, they wanna find you, they wanna find your programs, what's the best way, for them to connect with you, Larry?

Larry Hagner: 43:15

Sure. I I appreciate that. So there there's a couple different ways. I'll start with everything that's for free. So podcast is for free.

Larry Hagner: 43:23

I just recorded episode 1,484 yesterday with, father Steven Gadbury, who's an amazing individual, but almost 1,500 episodes to date. So that'll give you a lot of content, but I always encourage guys like, hey. Yeah. Listen to the content, but don't just consume content, do very little with it. Right?

Larry Hagner: 43:39

Sure. If guys are thinking like, hey, I I wanna go check out the book. The book is on Amazon. But I also, I've been doing this ever since I launched the book last September. So if you go to the dadedge.com/legendarybook, they can buy the book for $28.

Larry Hagner: 43:56

And with that, they get two free courses that I created. One is called creating more patience with Your Kids in the Heat of Chaos. So it helps men be a little bit more patient. And then there's another course called Creating Extraordinary Marriage where I go over 11 skill sets to better connect with your wife, create intimacy and attraction, all those things. That can be found there and those courses are $500 each, but if you buy the book for $28, you get a signed copy of it and you get access to those courses.

Larry Hagner: 44:21

If you're a business owner

Zack Carter: 44:22

What's what's the name of your book?

Larry Hagner: 44:24

It's The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood.

Mark Odland: 44:27

Awesome.

Larry Hagner: 44:28

Yeah. So that's that's the name of that book. If you're a business owner and you you you really like the Braveman system and you wanna be around other business owners, can go to dadege.com/boardroom. That has all the information there where you can book a free call with us too. It's there's no cost to you.

Larry Hagner: 44:44

We we give guys clarity whether they do life with us or not. Totally up to them. And then the alliance. That is the dataedge.com/alliance. That's for more of our w two guys.

Larry Hagner: 44:53

That's where I describe the calls that we have, the tactical agendas, specialty calls, and and open forum calls. But it's a great community. We're off of social media too, by the way, when it comes to our communities. We're on we have our own app. So you won't have you're not subject to a Facebook group or anything public like that.

Larry Hagner: 45:09

Everything we do is private in that app.

Mark Odland: 45:12

Wow. Very cool, man. Well, hey, Larry. It's it's been awesome meeting you and and and talking with you. It's, you know, a blessing to me to get to know you a little bit better even during the small kind of window of time.

Mark Odland: 45:23

And, it seems like you're definitely blessing a lot of guys and and making a difference in their lives, and you're you're trying to lead by example and and not just by showing your successes, but but being real about your history, which I I think is is really just a blessing and and, a refreshing thing for guys to listen to. So so thank you. Thank you for being on the podcast. Really appreciate it.

Larry Hagner: 45:46

Can I share one more thing? And I appreciate that.

Mark Odland: 45:47

Of course. Yeah.

Larry Hagner: 45:48

It was a pleasure.

Mark Odland: 45:49

Please do.

Larry Hagner: 45:50

So if you wanna give Aaron Rodgers, Jake Gyllenhaal, and John Krasdansky, and Mark here, these guys, I mean, like, obviously, you guys have been listening to these guys for a while, and I'm talking directly to your audience. Podcasting is not nearly as easy as you think it is. And the one thing that helps us more than anything is is reviews. So if you're getting any value, which I'm sure you are from Zach and Mark, upon completion of this show, what I want you to do is go to Apple, go to Spotify, leave these men a review, and be specific on how they've helped you in some way, shape, or form. These go miles for us, and it takes all of about thirty seconds.

Larry Hagner: 46:25

But if you're getting anything here, I just ask you to give back to these men and do that.

Mark Odland: 46:31

Dang, Larry. I think you're the first first guest who's, gave a did something that, that generous and thoughtful. We've got a lot of thoughtful guys, but that's that's very intentional what you said at the end. That's that's a we appreciate that.

Larry Hagner: 46:44

No problem, man. You guys obviously run a great show.

Zack Carter: 46:47

Yeah. I I I'd I'd love to finish this off with this. Much like Larry was last night, I'm very unsatisfied. I had more questions

Zack Carter: 46:55

to go with. And so we'll have to have you back on, man, and talk with you

Larry Hagner: 47:00

some more.

Zack Carter: 47:02

And, yeah, dude, we really appreciate you making the time to to come and talk with us today.

Larry Hagner: 47:07

My pleasure. I'd to have you guys on my show too.

Mark Odland: 47:09

We we'd love that, Larry. That that'd be a blessing. Great. And if in the meantime, in addition to leaving a review, if anyone would like to use AI to create if Jake Gyllenhaal and Aaron Rodgers had a baby, and then compare it to what Zach you look like and what your baby looks like now. I don't know if

Zack Carter: 47:23

your baby has a beard. I'm assuming your baby doesn't have a beard, but Larry, bro. I don't know.

Larry Hagner: 47:29

You're here for thirty minutes. I'm gonna go do that I'm gonna go do that right after this show just to see what comes up.

Mark Odland: 47:34

That'd amazing. That'd be amazing. Well, on that note.

Zack Carter: 47:38

See, now see, now Mark's not gonna

Zack Carter: 47:39

let this go, Larry. Thanks.

Zack Carter: 47:41

Like, this is my life now. He's like, you do look

Larry Hagner: 47:44

like this. I just took a screenshot of you, so I'm literally gonna run this thing through chat GPT as soon as we're done here.

Mark Odland: 47:53

Oh, Good times. Good times. Well, thanks again, Larry. God bless everyone.

Larry Hagner: 47:59

Thank you.

Mark Odland: 47:59

And take care. Talk to you soon. Bye.