Alright, everybody. Welcome. Thank you for coming to our theological talkback. For those of you don't know the format of this, we typically have a period of talk in which, Joel Busby is going to talk to us. And then we have a a brief break, and then you get to talk back and ask some questions.
Jeffrey Heine:We'll be done no later than 9 o'clock. Our topic tonight is evangelism. When I was meeting with Buzzfeed, he was just asking what this talk back should be about. Very quickly, me and really all of the staff, we landed on evangelism, because this is something that we see as a real need, not just in our church, but in all of the churches. I would say if there is a weakness in the reformed evangelical church out there, it's not so much in their theology.
Jeffrey Heine:It's not in the way that they do church, but it's in evangelism. And there's a lot of writing about the gospel and how you have gospel centered preaching, gospel centered worship, gospel centered small groups, but there's actually very little gospel proclamation. And so this is something that we feel that needs to be addressed within the church. Busby, if you if you don't know Joel Busby, he's the lead pastor at Grace Fellowship. He was also a pastor at Redeemer for a while and then we commissioned him out to plant that church.
Jeffrey Heine:He's the perfect person to speak on this topic because over and over again, I get to hear from people who have come to know the Lord and I'll say, tell me your story and they'll be like, well, you know, I met a guy named Joel Busby. And so Joel's very gifted at just meeting with people and sharing his faith. And, there's a church planting 101 is this follow the fruit. And after I met enough people who had been discipled by Joel Busby or who had come to faith by Joel Busby, it was obvious that he would be a perfect person to plant, the church that we have now in West Homewood. So, Busby, we look forward to hearing from you.
Speaker 2:Hey, guys. I mean, it's so good to see you guys. As Joel said, my name is also Joel. I know that's confusing. My wife is Mandy, who's actually here tonight.
Speaker 2:She's in the back, and she has in one of those wrap things my new little girl, Millie Sue Busby. Y'all can clap for them too, if you want to. As we get started tonight, there's just a few things I really want you to know. Okay? So, first of all, I want you to know how thankful we at Grace Fellowship are for all of you.
Speaker 2:We wouldn't exist as a congregation without the vision of Redeemer's leaders to send a group of us out, and we would continue to not exist as a congregation without Redeemer's generous support of what we're doing on the other side of town. We wouldn't, maybe would exist, but it would be hard without Redeemer's continual support just on the oversight side with some of their elders as well as some staff members. Just the good old fashioned advice and camaraderie we get to enjoy with Redeemer. So we are so so thankful at Grace Fellowship for you guys. I want you to know that.
Speaker 2:Couple other things I want you to know, because I don't really work on Redeemer staff exactly anymore. I mean, I'm at a Redeemer staff meeting once a week, but, my my work is really more over on the other side of town. I also want you to know how highly I think of the team, the leadership team at Redeemer. You guys are blessed to have a group of of pastors, as well as, I mean, a page. You guys know Paige Bierman?
Speaker 2:You've got a page. You guys are are are blessed to to be led by some really godly gifted people. And it's a blessing for me every Monday to hear reports from what the Lord is doing with Redeemer. But to see the way that these folks, just just consistently with such passion and energy, just think of you and pray for you and think about ways to lead you, and it's a huge blessing. There's a couple other things I want you to know.
Speaker 2:Number 1, even though Joel said kind things about me, there are other people in this room who definitely would be more equipped to give this talk than me. I can think of of several. So I'm I'm thankful that I get the opportunity. There's another thing I want you to know. Our churches have a little bit of an end game with you, and you just need to know that.
Speaker 2:See, we didn't set out to plant Grace Fellowship, which by the way, there are some Grace Fellowship people here in the house tonight. Grace Fellowship people, if you could show me your hands. Alright. Quick hands. We didn't plant Grace Fellowship and Redeemer wasn't planted 9 years ago, in order to just create a congregation of people who would come to church on Sunday, get to sing good music, hear good preaching, and then just, sort of, go home.
Speaker 2:See, we have an end game with you. We want you to move from there to we want you to begin to enjoy a connection to people around you. We want you to enjoy this thing that the New Testament calls the fellowship. Okay? This is this deep sense of community with one another.
Speaker 2:This this sense that you have a stake in each other's lives because you are in Christ, and the other people around you are in Christ. And we want you to move from just a person who attends on a Sunday to being deeply engaged in a community, in a fellowship. But then we wanna do a third thing. And that's that we want you to move from being someone who now gathers to sing songs and hear good preaching, who begins to devote yourself to the fellowship among you, but we want you to move to this other thing of you actually now begin to understand yourself. As a Christian person who is empowered by the Holy Spirit and who is a sent individual, that you were sent out into your homes and into your neighborhoods and into your workplace and on and on it goes to the ends of the earth.
Speaker 2:In other words, we want you to begin to see yourself in this sort of movement from gathering, honestly, on a Sunday or within a home group, to really scattering off into the places that the Lord has placed you. So you need to know that that's what we're after, just as a congregation. And that gets us close to what we're beginning to talk about tonight. I'm just happy you're here. I'm happy you're here on a holiday week.
Speaker 2:I'm happy you're here for a subject like evangelism. You know, a lot of Christians actually cringe when they think of this word evangelism. So I've been a pastor in some shape or form for almost 12 years. I got my first job, some really nice people in San Antonio, Texas, gave me a job working with middle schoolers. And I've been doing this for for about 12 years and part of my style, just pastorally, orally, is just personal, it's relational.
Speaker 2:It's sit down at the table and just, kind of, talk. And be and because of that, people will tell me things. They'll they'll share things. They'll reveal things in their heart and in their soul. And there's a few things that I that in those past oral conversations for almost 12 years, I just hear over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:And so here here's one of them for example, So many Christians that I meet with will will be at a table, and they'll kinda look around, and they'll make sure no one's looking, and they'll say to me something along the lines of, Joel, I'm embarrassed to say this, but I have no idea how to read my Bible. No earthly idea. I don't know where I'm supposed to start. I know I'm supposed to be reading this, but I I just have no idea. There's another thing I've heard from Christians over and over and over again tonight, and it gets us to what we're getting into tonight.
Speaker 2:Christians who will basically say to me, Buzzfeed, like, I know I'm supposed to be doing this thing called sharing my faith, But I have no earthly idea how I'm supposed to go about that. I mean, what is that actually supposed to look like? I mean, I've I've been told I'm supposed to do this, but I know the kind of evangelism I was exposed to way back in my past, and I'm I'm not sure I'm supposed to be doing that, but but I feel this burden of I've I've become, kinda, taken with the glory of Jesus, and I feel this burden. But but I just don't know where to start at all. I don't know if I'm just not being bold enough.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it has to really always be this awkward. Just this general sense of angst about the task of evangelism. The title for tonight's talk is, Evangelism Without a Panic Attack. Okay? Thinking theologically, as well as practically, about this idea of Christian witness.
Speaker 2:So we're gonna we're gonna get into all this tonight. Just out of curiosity, has anybody in the room ever been exposed to evangelism or been asked to participate in something or had someone do something to you that at the end of the day, you think it was kind of evangelistic, but it was super cringe worthy and awkward. Has anybody ever had that experience? Okay. Pretty much everybody.
Speaker 2:Okay? On the one hand, I wanna tell you I get it. I totally understand. I've done things and I'm like, what what was I doing? At least I'm going back home and never having to see anybody again.
Speaker 2:Right? I've I've been involved in stuff like that. But here's here's a way I wanna I wanna just kinda challenge us. I think whenever you begin to think through evangelism, we need a good dose of humility. The Lord uses all kinds of means and all kinds of ways to draw people to faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:I heard a pastor say one time at a pastor's event I was at, and and he basically said, how many of you guys came to faith in Christ via some method that right now you would, like, reject? And almost every hand went up in the room. Some lords, the Lord draws people to faith in whatever way that he wants. Okay? There's a famous story of a famous evangelist, Dwight Moody, who one time a lady came up to Dwight L.
Speaker 2:Moody and said, mister Moody, I don't like your methods of evangelism. And Moody responded, well, thank you ma'am for telling me that. Tell me your methods. And she said, I don't have any methods. And he said, well, I like mine better than yours.
Speaker 2:Okay? So so there's there's a humility. Okay? There's a humility that we have to kinda kinda sort of drink in as we begin to talk about this kind of stuff. When I was a, when I was in college, I don't remember exactly what year, I was in college.
Speaker 2:I was working a job at a restaurant and I was trying to earn some money, so I could go on a study abroad trip. So for several months, I I took a job at a restaurant. And in case you don't know, restaurants are normally known to be places that are filled with people who work there who aren't Christian. I don't exactly know why that is, but it tends to be the case. And I'm working at a restaurant and, I'm going in for my shift and my shift was started by the way, the restaurant was Logan's Roadhouse.
Speaker 2:Okay? So you know the peanuts you throw on the floor? At the end of the night, guys like me have to sweep all of those up. Okay? So, I'm working at Logan's Roadhouse and, I'm in college.
Speaker 2:I'm, kind of, early in college, and I had just recently become, sort of, awaken to the truths of the gospel. This is, kind a story, maybe I'll share a little bit more later. And I'm sitting there and my shift starts at 5 o'clock, the requirement was to come at 4:30 and you had to roll a certain amount of silverware in a napkin before you're allowed to, sort of, start work. Does anybody know what I'm talking about at all? Okay.
Speaker 2:So you had to roll, say like, 50 or a100 or I don't know, however many things of silver before you could start. And I'm sitting around with these co workers, who for the most part aren't Christian, and I'm sitting there and I'm talking like a, like a softball being tossed up. This kitchen manager just walks in the room of all of us and he just, kind of, throws it out there. I don't remember the whole details of it, but he throws out a question related to God, Jesus, the Bible, something. And he kind of throws it out on the table for just discussion, just in a normal way.
Speaker 2:This wasn't like a hostile get ready to debate the atheist moment. It wasn't that. It was just that this this guy, who wasn't a Christian, throws out something about God, Jesus, the Bible, just just in this moment. And I see it all going down and people begin talking and exchanging ideas about the Bible or Jesus or or whatever. And I'm just rolling myself over.
Speaker 2:I'm, like, looking around. Okay? And the conversation keeps going and I just keep rolling my silverware. Okay? I literally had nothing to say.
Speaker 2:And the reason I think I didn't have anything to say is because I think I was kind of thinking about evangelism wrong. I was thinking that maybe it was something that I had to do. Okay? Tonight, we're going to talk about moving from have to to get to. It's a huge distinction there.
Speaker 2:I remembered almost thinking, shoot, I have to have some kind of sales pitch down in order to, kind of, win this deal or close this deal, And I don't know that I'm really ready to do that sales pitch. I mean, maybe I'd been taught one, but but I didn't know if I was going to say it all right. So tonight, we're going to talk about moving from this idea of a sales pitch to an idea of fluency, and I'll explain what I mean by that. And then there's this third thing that happened, which is related to the second, but it's like I was waiting around for some technique that I can master, that I could, kind of, turn on in that scenario rather than thinking about cultivating habits that, maybe, would make me into the kind of person that would be able to say a word in that moment. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:So that's as good as I've got for where we're going tonight. Okay? Tonight, I'm not going to give you, sort of, a easy method for, you know, tomorrow. You just say these three things and that's that's it. What I really want to do with you tonight is help you and help myself just sort of build for ourselves a theological and practical framework, that you have in your mind as you begin to think through this calling of, what I'll call, evangelism or even Christian witness.
Speaker 2:Okay? So when you think of the subject, I want 3 ideas to sort of pop in your head. Okay? And here here's the 3 ideas right here. So are you guys ready?
Speaker 2:Let's do this. Here's the first one. From have to to get to. I want to read a passage of scripture for you. I'm not going to preach this passage.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to read it for you just for our thinking. It comes from Acts chapter 1 and I'm gonna begin reading verse 6. So Jesus has gone to the cross, by the way. He's been raised from the dead. He's hanging out with his disciples and he's spending time with them for, the scriptures say, 40 days.
Speaker 2:And then here's what happens in verse 6, So when they had come together, they asked him, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. And you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth. Now later on in the next chapter, Acts 2, if you want to write a note down in Acts 2, The Holy Spirit comes upon these exact people as they're meeting in an upper room.
Speaker 2:The Holy Spirit comes upon them and there's a big racket and everybody from the area comes to them, and at that point they're able to declare, what the script what the text says, the mighty works of God. They're able to declare the mighty works of God and they're able to do it in languages according to the native languages of the people who were there. Okay? And at that moment, Acts chapter 2 makes really really clear that there was this movement that was going on, kind of, from the beginning of the Scriptures and it had finally reached its moment, when the Holy Spirit would empower every single individual believer to be one who can speak the mighty works of God. See, in the Old Testament, a filling of the Holy Spirit was a temporary thing for a particular purpose, but now all of a sudden the Spirit is now being poured out and indwelling every individual believer, for again, the purpose of those people becoming speakers, declarers of the, the text says, the mighty works of God.
Speaker 2:And the text is really clear, both male and female, old and young, rich and poor, everybody. So it's this, kind of, new era that had, sort of, dawned in the history of the world. The Spirit was poured out for every individual Christian to become this declarer of the Good News of Jesus. And then in the passages that I read to you, this really interesting thing, and this is a profound idea that was really, sort of, opened up to me in a fresh way about a month ago when Brian Kennedy, guy you guys know, who's one of our provisional elders at Grace Fellowship, preached at Grace Fellowship, and he brought up this really interesting point that the disciples say to Jesus, Lord, will you restore the Kingdom of Israel? And Jesus looks at them and says, you will be my witnesses.
Speaker 2:So this move from, will you, Lord? To, no, you will, Jesus says to his followers. This movement. Every single Christian being empowered to then go and be his witnesses, again, to speak, to declare the mighty works of God and kind of from their neighborhoods into their communities and and on and on to the ends of the earth. The scriptures also say that that one day there's a vision that's given the scriptures at several places, but but but one of the places says that there will come a day when the knowledge of the Lord fills the earth like the waters cover the sea.
Speaker 2:Revelation 7 says that one day there will be worshipers gathered around the throne room of God from every tongue and tribe and nation. In other words, God has ordained this great end. Okay? This great end of of of people becoming saved, people being rescued, people being, coming to the understanding of the knowledge of the Lord, and he's ordained that end. But in the same way, just like he's ordained that end, he's also ordained the means by which we arrive at that end.
Speaker 2:And that means Now think about this for a second. This is this is God we're talking about. K? This is God we're talking about. He could ordain whatever means that he wanted to accomplish that end.
Speaker 2:He could ordain means that to us might seem like a lot more efficient ways of accomplishing that end. But in His infinite kindness and in His mercy and His infinite wisdom, He has ordained that you and me have a role in that whole story. He's ordained that the means by which that end occurs is by you and me, people empowered by the Holy Spirit, going out and speaking, declaring with our mouths the good news of the gospel. Every person that I have ever met that has come to faith in Jesus, which I've met a lot of people that have come to faith in Christ, every testimony that I've ever heard. You know, at Grace Fellowship, as well as Redeemer, we ask you guys, when you become involved, to, to fill to fill out a membership packet where you tell us the story of how you came to faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:And every one of those I've ever read always, without exception, involves someone speaking the truths of the gospel to that person who came to faith. Does that make sense? For some of you, it was a mom and dad. For some of you, for me, it was a coach. It was a coach who took me aside and said, buzz me, brother.
Speaker 2:And in very harsh terms, he challenged me to follow Jesus. You know who that person was for you. Okay? And what I want you to see tonight is now you are intended to be those people for others. Are you tracking with this?
Speaker 2:In other words, I feel like when when when when this vision is put before us, it helps us move from this mentality, oh, I I guess I have to share my faith because I guess that's what Christians have to do, to this really rich idea of no no no, like like, I I get to participate in God redeeming the world. That's the first idea. From have to, to get to. Here's the second idea. From sales pitch, okay, to fluency.
Speaker 2:And here's what I mean by that. So the word evangelism itself, okay, so the the word evangelism is basically a derivative of the word evangel, the good news. So the word evangelism would literally mean something like good newsing or you might even say gospeling. Okay? In the Scriptures, the Scriptures paint a picture of God revealing himself in all sorts of ways to people in different ways.
Speaker 2:But the way that He primarily reveals himself is through His Word. Okay? Particularly the word of the gospel who got who's gone to proclaim, and how can that person proclaim unless they were sent? So this idea of of of evangelism, I want you to have it in your head as inextricably bound up in speaking. Okay?
Speaker 2:In saying things, declaring things. You know, there's a famous saying that preach the gospel at all times and if necessary use words. I mean, I get what they're saying there. They're trying to say that, let our life shine in a certain way, and that's totally true. But to share the gospel means you use words, like like, literally the power is in the words itself.
Speaker 2:Okay? So when you think through this idea of sharing your faith, of proclaiming or declaring the gospel, I want you to begin to think of it, and this is something I'm just kind of still working out in my head, I want you to begin to think of it, kind of like you acquired the language that you speak, which most of us in this room is English. Some people even more languages than that. Let me explain. So my little girl, Millie, who was in the back of the room, but she's gone somewhere now with my wife, by the way, One thing that's been really cool about Millie, she's 6 weeks old, but but we're beginning to kinda hold her out in front of us.
Speaker 2:I mean, we've been doing this since she was born, but we hold her out in front of us and we talk to her. And we just say, hey, baby. Hey, you sweet girl. Like, all these things we tell her. Right?
Speaker 2:She would make eye contact with us and kinda listen, but now she's starting to do something. She's starting to make noises back to us. She starting to make these little cooing sounds. I thought I'd try to make one for you tonight. I'm going to.
Speaker 2:So we say to her, we're, like, we're, like, hey, baby. And she'll say back, she'll just be, like, I know. I was determined to do it. It's in my notes. Make this out.
Speaker 2:In in my 5 year old son, Henry, what's really interesting is my 5 year old son, Henry, one thing that's amazing is that he can speak English. Like Henry can carry on a conversation in English. He hasn't been to school yet and he can make subjects and verbs agree for the most part. If he gets it wrong, he, kind of, knows how to do it the next time. He can make contractions.
Speaker 2:Henry can begin to understand, like, complex things like sarcasm. Okay? He's acquired this language called English, And here's the way he acquired it, and this is really really really important for tonight. He acquired it because it was spoken to him, and then he began to try to speak it back again. It's the only way you actually acquire a language.
Speaker 2:You know, it would be nonsensical to basically ask Henry, keep your mouth closed until you sort of have it down on how to speak English and then give it a try when you're like 4 and a half years old. That's nonsensical. What I found is most Christians tend to think of a thing like evangelism like that. I'm going to acquire the right information biblically and theologically and then I'll reach this point where I feel ready to then say something. Or I will acquire a kind of, a sort of pitch that I'm going to give.
Speaker 2:When he says that, then He'll say that, and then if He says that then I'm going to say that. See, that that would be that would be nonsense when it comes to our own children. Why do we think of it that way when it comes to speaking and declaring the gospel? I want to encourage you to begin to think through it in terms of fluency. I I mean, I thought this was a term I made up, but I heard that somebody else already has this term.
Speaker 2:But this idea of gospel fluency. The idea that our goal is to arrive at this place where we speak the truths of the gospel as naturally, seemingly effortlessly as we would speak a language. Does this make sense? So so gospel fluency. 1st, let's talk about the gospel.
Speaker 2:Okay? One thing that I've also learned in my time in pastoral ministry is that a whole lot of people don't necessarily know what the gospel is. So, therefore, they don't know how to speak it and to to begin to try it. I found that not least of which are Christians who do not understand what the gospel is. I found not least of which are Christians in the American South typically don't understand what the gospel is.
Speaker 2:I found that most people tend to confuse the gospel for what I'm gonna call tonight, sort of, 4 other things. Okay? Here's 4 things I think we tend to confuse the gospel for. The first thing, I think we tend to confuse the gospel for an ethical way of living. So you ask somebody what the gospel is and they'll they'll write down, like, on a testimony or something, well, it means that we love our neighbor and love people and and we do the best we can to obey God.
Speaker 2:Now here's the thing, the gospel contains with it an ontology. That's a philosophical word. It contains with it a way of being. Okay? So in other words, the gospel makes us into a, kind of, person who certainly lives a certain ethic.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? But the ethic itself, the way of living itself, is not itself the gospel. K? Here's another thing that I felt a lot of people confuse for the gospel. A lot of people, not least in places like where we are right now, confuse the gospel for intellectual ascent to a certain level of doctrine or belief.
Speaker 2:In other words, they think the gospel is being able to rattle off 6 or 7 biblical or theological, often I would call factoids, you know, like information. Here's the problem with that. The gospel contains with it, certainly, rich doctrine and theology, things to engage the mind. But intellectual assent to a body of information is not the gospel in and of itself. I can tell you personal experience, I was a 17 18 year old kid who knew all the right answers, whose heart couldn't have been more far from Jesus.
Speaker 2:Okay? And from a lot of experience I've had, both with college students and young adults, and now in the congregation as a whole, I'm telling you that happens so often. Here's a third thing that I think people confuse for the gospel. Okay? A third thing.
Speaker 2:I think they confuse the gospel for a feeling of something. And I really think this is very very very prominent. They have it in their heads that the gospel is some kind of feeling of feeling something. Like, a feeling of feeling how you would feel if you're feeling like you're feeling close to God. Something like that.
Speaker 2:So you hear people, when you ask them, well, well tell me, share with me, like, the gospel. They'll basically say, well, it's it's this idea of being close to God. Well, here's the case. Here's the thing. In within our faith, there's a certain level of feeling and emotion for sure.
Speaker 2:There's intimacy with God. There's there's rich depth of fellowship with the living God of all things that can be had. But a feeling and feeling close to God is is not the gospel. I remember just really clearly, you know, I mean, this is probably I graduated from seminary in 2011. So this is, like, what, that's 6 years ago.
Speaker 2:Right? So, 6 years ago, I remember, laying down in the bed with my wife, Mandy, and we were talking and we had this, like, moment of, what if we're all wrong? Like, what if Christianity is not even true? Like, what if we've completely, like, we've missed it? Now this was alarming when you just finished seminary and you've dedicated your, like, vocational work to, like, proclaiming the gospel.
Speaker 2:Right? That's supposed to be a joke. So, it is alarming though. So so we're we're sitting there, we're laying there and, and we start sort of in our heads doing this game, basically. We started saying, well, are we are we, like, obeying God?
Speaker 2:Like, are we? And then we're, like, well, are do we do we believe, like like, intellectually? Does does, you know, the resurrection of Jesus Christ make intellectual sense? And then we kind of really landed on this idea, well, do we feel what we would feel if we were feeling like we're truly close to God? And there's just, like, overwhelming thing that came over me that that helped me, like, just all of a sudden dawned on me, well, that's not what the gospel is.
Speaker 2:K. That's not what the gospel is. K. I'm gonna say what it is in just a second. Okay?
Speaker 2:Here's here's a 4th thing that I think people can can often confuse for the gospel. And this 4th thing, I'm going to tell you is an alternative religion. Okay? It's an alternative religion than Christianity. It's a religion that a philosopher was, he has a sociologist named Christian Smith at the University of Notre Dame calls Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.
Speaker 2:Okay. Let me break it down. Moralistic. God essentially wants me to do good and be good, and do, kind of, good things. Therapeutic.
Speaker 2:God basically exists for my happiness. In other words, my life is moving in this certain trajectory that involves these dreams and goals, and if God and Jesus can enter in to help me get there, great. Because my life is about happiness. Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. Deism meaning, there's definitely a God out there somewhere, but he's sort of just not all that interested in me, but I could call on him if I needed something.
Speaker 2:Okay? Somebody I was talking to just today, kind of, captured this so so perfectly. When he said it, I was so happy, because I know I was going to talk about this. A lot of people grow up with this idea of just don't have sex anyway you're not supposed to and and holler at God if you need him. I've heard so many Christian testimonies from Christian people who basically are giving me a version of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.
Speaker 2:My life was gonna move in a certain way and I wanted to move there a little quicker and I found that Jesus worked for that. The problem is is you're gonna find Jesus won't always work for that very easily. So what is the gospel? K. So if if if speaking the good news is about becoming fluent in the gospel, then what is the gospel?
Speaker 2:Y'all, there's so many ways you can say this. There's so many different tools you can use and I commend any of those to you. But here's the way I'm going to explain it for tonight. That the gospel is both a story and it's a promise. Okay?
Speaker 2:So it's a story and it's a promise. So when I say story, what I mean is it's an event. It's it's it's an account of an event that has occurred. Okay. So it's a story.
Speaker 2:It is the story of how the creator God of all things speaks the world into existence. How the people that he created, and he created them unique, they're uniquely able to live for the glory of his name. How those people have decided essentially to say to him, you know what? Forget you. I'm not interested in doing things your way.
Speaker 2:You know, sin enters the picture, and that this same creator God has acted decisively, fully, and finally, in time and in space, in the person and work of Jesus Christ, climactically in His cross and in His resurrection, but leading up to that in His life of faithful obedience before the Father fulfilling the perfect righteousness required, his death on the cross for forgiveness and atonement, full atonement for our sins. Defeating the powers of evil and death and sin and Satan. His having been raised from the dead new life, New creation has now burst forth. And that he'll one day return to, kind of, finish that fully and finally, which will result for us in resurrected bodies and a new heavens and a new earth. The gospel is the story of how God has done those things in the person and work of Jesus.
Speaker 2:A real person named Jesus Christ who's done real actual things. Okay? So it's a story. It's that story. I've heard a famous biblical scholar say that the gospel is irreducibly historical.
Speaker 2:Meaning, it really trades on the having had happenedness of it. Does that make sense? Like it's actually occurred. Okay? I've heard another famous pastor, talk about how the gospel is is essentially news, not advice.
Speaker 2:K? So it's news that this has occurred. That God has acted in the person and work of Jesus Christ to save us from sin and death and evil in Satan. That he's done that. It's news of him having done that.
Speaker 2:It's not advice. You know, there's a reason when you flip on the local news at 5 o'clock and it's like, 5 o'clock news, you know, channel 13, WVTM. What do you guys think happened tonight? Notice that doesn't happen? See, news has to be proclaimed.
Speaker 2:It has to be heralded. It has to be said. K? So it's a story. But, see, it's more than just an abstract story like that.
Speaker 2:Okay? That's just, kind of, happened out there somewhere. It's also a promise. And it's a promise that if you believe in him, okay, and in the Bible belief is always this rich and robust round idea, not just intellectual ascent, but, throwing the fullness of who you are before this God, in his grace, and in his mercy. It's a promise that if you will believe in him, that you can have life in his name.
Speaker 2:That you can have definitely costly life in His name, like denying yourself, taking up your cross, and dying, kind of, life in his name, which is actually in a paradoxical way, the same story tells us, is the way you actually find your life. But that you can have life in his name. You can have forgiveness. You can union with him. You can be put into his body.
Speaker 2:The the the the chains of sin and death can can be broken from you. You can have life in his name. Certainly life forevermore when you die, but that same kind of God life, abundant life is available to you in the here and in the now. To walk with him, to be in fellowship with him, to be filled with his spirit. See, I grew up in a tradition where evangelism, the gospel, was mostly about what happens when you die.
Speaker 2:K? And that's certainly beautiful and precious and true. Resurrected bodies of new heavens and the earth, but that same sort of life with God can be ours, here and now. And what I found is if is as we're in a place where we worship and those truths are being spoken to us, See, we can begin to look back and begin to practice speaking them too. And as we are in environments where we're learning to treasure this Jesus and what he's done for us, When we begin to realize that the greatest gift of the gospel is we actually get Jesus Christ himself.
Speaker 2:When we realize that, if all of a sudden our hearts begin to become shaped, we begin to have a heart to want to share the things that we've learned. In other words, as it spoken to us we can begin to practice speaking it to others. And then all of a sudden it begins to feel less like some pitch for some multilevel marketing thing, and more like a real life thing that you've experienced, that you know, that you believe in that rich deep way. And then you can begin to speak about it. And you begin to develop instincts for how it then applies to a person's situation.
Speaker 2:When you talk with your neighbor out in the out in the driveway and they share with you some hard thing in their life, so you begin to pick up on these instincts of how a portion of the good news of Jesus now then applies directly to that person's life. You develop these gospel speaking instincts, but only comes as you're spoken to and as you practice speaking it. When I was at Logan's Roadhouse that day, there's I have this sneaking suspicion that a lot of my hesitation to say something was maybe I didn't really know the gospel and I wasn't therefore, I I did not really treasure Jesus Christ above all things. So therefore, I really didn't have anything to say. You see, it's as we come to treasure Jesus that these gospel speaking instincts begin to happen.
Speaker 2:So from have to to get to, from sales pitch to to fluency, and here's kind of our final thing and we can can break for some some questions. From techniques, okay, to habits. From techniques to habits. So when I use the word habit here, I'm really trying to use it in, like, a philosophical sense, sense. Like the idea of practices that are deeply ingrained in us that begin to have a formative quality as to who we are.
Speaker 2:Okay? So whereas, maybe techniques are about finding or, kind of, a random thing that we can, kind of, use like a product of some kind to make something happen, Habits are something more deeply, more ingrained in who we are. Okay? So when I'm talking about techniques to habits, I'm talking about a whole lifestyle that's evangelistic, that's gospel speaking. Okay?
Speaker 2:So this really is about a flipping of a switch, and you really have to know that. It's about flipping a switch and realizing that, maybe, evangelism is not something for, maybe, just of this calling might actually be about acquiring a whole new set of lenses by which I view the world. Where you begin to see the world is charged with opportunity to declare the Good News of Jesus. I am as convinced as a person can be convinced that evangelism is not intended to be some kind of add on in a Christian's life. K?
Speaker 2:So you're, kind of, doing Christian life. You're you're doing discipleship. You're doing worship. You're doing whatever things you do. You're listening to preaching.
Speaker 2:You do all that. And I guess I'll have to find a way to add this other thing called evangelism onto my life. Okay. I'm convinced that it's better for us to think about it, as not necessarily doing a brand new thing, but doing everything we're doing brand new and differently. K?
Speaker 2:So flipping this kind of switch. So I I really want to share, just as we round out our time, what I'm gonna call evangelistic habits. Okay? And I'm going to throw these off in no particular order. Okay?
Speaker 2:I'm going to say very little about a few of them, say a lot more about others. It's just gonna be a a hodgepodge here. Okay? Evangelistic habits. Again, in no particular order.
Speaker 2:Being really familiar with your own story. Being really familiar with your own story. You know, I've found that most people, myself included, were not very reflective people. We don't really think of what's happened in our lives past and why that how that shapes who we are. But I think an evangelistic habit is being really familiar with your own story.
Speaker 2:I found that people tend to declare and and to speak the truth of the gospel in a way, kind of, similar to how they were brought to faith. Does that make sense? So being really aware of your own story. Story, there's a lot of mission organizations that that really teach you the art of sharing your own testimony, because there's so much power in that. We see this through all throughout the scriptures.
Speaker 2:When you see someone sharing their faith in the scriptures, it couldn't be more simple. They'll basically say, there's a guy named Jesus and this just happened to me. K? It's an awareness of their own story. They're not really throwing a sales pitch out there.
Speaker 2:They're saying, come and see me, man. You told me everything I've ever done. K? So being aware of your own story. Here's the second one.
Speaker 2:Meals are sacred opportunities. So to begin to think more prayerfully and thoughtfully and conscientiously literally about every meal you eat. If you were to track Jesus' evangelistic strategy, specifically in the Gospel of Luke, You'd find it always happens at dinner, or breakfast, or snack, or whatever. Start thinking of your meals as these sacred opportunities. I have found even with my own children, as I'm trying to declare and speak the truth of gospel to them, there's something about sitting down next to them while they eat.
Speaker 2:I don't know what it is. K? So think of every meal you have differently. K? Here's here's a third thing.
Speaker 2:Here's a third thing. And maybe when you're in those meals, isn't the third thing, that's the same thing. Maybe while you're in those meals, just just be prayerful about opportunities to just be gracious in those moments, to to to speak something of Jesus in those moments. You'd be amazed how often they arise. Okay.
Speaker 2:Here's the third thing, and it's related to the second. This is a big value for both Redeemer and for Grace Fellowship. The practice of Christian hospitality. Okay? Christian hospitality.
Speaker 2:The New Testament word for hospitality literally translates love for the outsider. Most of us, and some have heard Joel Brooks say many times, most of us think of hospitality as putting together an amazing meal that could be look really awesome on Instagram, and if possible somebody from Southern Living Magazine might pick it up and put it in their magazine. In other words, we, in the South, we equate hospitality with entertaining. Okay? But Christian hospitality is about, and it's an ancient Christian art, it it it was with the these these believers immediately went out and started practicing this.
Speaker 2:This is ancient Christian art about sacrificially inviting others into your living space. Whether that's your even your work office, or your apartment, or your home, or your jog, whatever you consider to be your space, sacrificially inviting outsiders, in particular, into your living space. Okay? You'll find that that that acts of Christian hospitality are fertile soil for speaking the gospel. Now, I want to challenge you here.
Speaker 2:Okay? I want to challenge you here. Christian hospitality, in the way that I'm describing it, does assume you're doing it with a gospel speaking intentionality. In other words, it's easy, myself included, to just think having people over for dinner is, by itself, intrinsically evangelistic. Now now it can be, and I'm certainly not saying that that at every meal you break out, like, sort of a, you know, after they eat their, like, lamb chop or that was that's a fancy food, you know.
Speaker 2:After they eat their whatever, you're gonna ask them to bow their head and close their eyes and pray this prayer after you. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying Christian hospitality implies an intentionality to it toward the outsider. That make sense? Alright.
Speaker 2:So that's the third thing. I'm rearranging the order on the fly here, so I gotta keep up with what I've done. Okay. Here's a 4th thing. Seasons.
Speaker 2:Seasons. Get in the habit of being particularly acutely aware at certain seasons. And here's what I mean by seasons, Christmas, New Year's, Easter, 4th July, Times when people naturally congregate and talk to one another to a greater degree than they normally would. I'm also talking seasons about seasons in a person's life. When you know someone's gone through something difficult, you can absolutely know you have a disproportionate opportunity to have an impact on their life.
Speaker 2:Be be aware of, sort of, the times, like, discern the times. There's there's a place in the new testament where where Paul says, let your speech be seasoned with grace especially toward outsiders, making the most of every opportunity. Okay. So it has this idea of thinking about seasons. Okay?
Speaker 2:So being thoughtful about seasons. Here's another one. The idea of of presence. Okay? The idea of your presence, not presents like Christmas presents, but your idea of your presence.
Speaker 2:Coach a little league team. Volunteer for the thing in your kid's school. Find a way to play in a league that maybe is not a church league. Does this make sense? It's like finding ways to be present in places where people might not necessarily be Christian.
Speaker 2:This certainly includes your neighborhood, being present in your neighborhood. And you do realize how much intentionality that really requires? It requires you to start doing strange things. So let me give you an example. Y'all are gonna laugh at me, but maybe we will.
Speaker 2:I don't know. This is gonna sound really worse than it is. Sometimes I look outside and I notice when my neighbors pull in the driveway and I go out then to, like, grab my trash. Is that creepy? There's a nod a strong nod in the room over there.
Speaker 2:But it's being it's it's it's it's being purposely present. Purposely present in a in a moment. And I would just say, in general, do more stuff outside. Just do more stuff outside. You'd be amazed how often, like, if you move your kids activity from the backyard to the front yard.
Speaker 2:Okay? If you move the thing you're doing with your buddies from the backyard to the front yard, that's what I meant to say, from your backyard to your front yard, you'd be amazing how much more interaction you'll just have. Most people drive in their neighborhoods, they they hit the hit the button that makes the garage door go up, it closes behind them, and they don't actually interact. Do better than that. Be present.
Speaker 2:There's an implication in what I just said. Maybe relocate yourself to a place where you can interact to greater degree with other people. I don't know. Maybe move out of said place into a different place. I'm not telling you that's what you have to do, but that's the way you gotta start thinking.
Speaker 2:How how can I be more present in my community, in my place? Again, for parents in the room, being present with things that your kids are doing is huge. For folks who are single, I mean, the scriptures will say you have unbelievable opportunity, which is your state of life to to to be more present. So so be that. Do that.
Speaker 2:Do things outside. I said that. Here's here's another one. Read. And here's what I mean by that.
Speaker 2:Read a book with somebody. You'd actually be surprised how many people, if you asked if they would, like, read a book with you to discuss spiritual things, you'd be surprised how many people would really be eager to do that. And I have just the book for you. Okay? There's a book that was literally made for gospel speaking conversations.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was, like, perfectly put together for these purposes. It's the gospel of John. And I'm not even kidding you. Crossway has this little free gospel of John book. It's just like, literally like this.
Speaker 2:Okay? There's a bunch of them in Redeemer. I stole 1. There's a there's a there's a line at the end of the of John, which will kind of blow your mind, but but, basically, what John says is there's a whole lot of things that could have been written about what Jesus did. In other words, the and he even says this, the whole world could be filled with books.
Speaker 2:But he says very specifically, these things were written. And what he means by that is the Gospel of John, particularly the seven signs in the Gospel of John. These things are written so that you might believe and have life in his name. In other words, the early Christians needed a resource by which they could begin to walk with people through these gospel speaking conversations. And there was one authored by the Holy Spirit himself made for that moment, you would be amazed at the gospel of John.
Speaker 2:So so read. Read with somebody. If you find other resources, that's fine. I commend that one to you for sure, though. Here's here's a here's another thing.
Speaker 2:Cultivate this habit of prayer and patience. K? To be a person who's a gospel speaking person, man, you gotta be so prayerful. You have to be so prayerful. That praying without ceasing idea really comes to bear in these moments.
Speaker 2:You've got to be really really pray prayerful. You also have to be really, really patient. So many things in the life of faith are slow. K? Don't be afraid of that.
Speaker 2:K? Don't be afraid of being patient and prayerful. There are people who've come to Christ through the literal worst gospel speaking conversation you could ever imagine. There are people who, for whatever reason, don't respond to the good news of the gospel, with the very best gospel speaking conversation. This is God's business.
Speaker 2:K? Who is saved and who's not? This is God's business whose heart is quickened by the Holy Spirit in that moment and whose is not. Our our job is to be is to be faithful and to be prayerful and to be patient. Here here's the last thing and we'll have a little bit of time for q and a.
Speaker 2:Engage in an intentional effort of some kind. I'll tell you just about a couple around Redeemer. You know, the the professional collectives that Redeemer does, an amazing opportunity at least to bring people who don't know Christ to have a conversation about, about the gospel and how it informs work. The Advent or the the Woodlawn outreach that happens on Monday night ministry where you can have a chance to interact with some people at least who don't know Christ in those moments. The international ministry that goes on around Redeemer as well as Grace Fellowship, we're hoping to start some of that in the fall, where you have chance to interact with people who don't know Christ.
Speaker 2:So in other words, your your pastoral staff and your leadership staff have tried to cultivate some opportunities for you to be engaged. So engage in some of those efforts. There's an effort coming up, or even this fall, called the Alpha Course. I don't know how many people are familiar with the Alpha Course, but the Alpha Course is this intentional, effort to train people in evangelism, and to also share the gospel with people who would not necessarily Who would who would tend to have a panic attack when faced with the issue of evangelism. It's made for those kind of people.
Speaker 2:It's a program that's created at a church that I visited in London. Redeemer's kicking off an Alpha course this fall, and they need a lot of help. They need help to serve in a variety of ways, but if you're one of those people who you think to yourself, evangelism is not for me. That's the exact kind of people they're looking for for this program. I mean, it's it's a practice in conversational evangelism.
Speaker 2:And I want to encourage that, encourage you in that. Edmund Perry, who's here, who's running it, Edmund can you show him your hand? He would love to talk with you about that. He's here tonight. Go find him.
Speaker 2:There's all sorts of ways to engage. So so these habits, I think, begin to form us. Okay. They begin to form us. Alright.
Speaker 2:Last thing I'm gonna say and then we'll take a 5 minute break and we'll have some q and a time. I just want you to dream your dream with me for just a minute. You know, Redeemer has, I don't I don't know the number, 600 or so members. Grace Fellowship, I think, we have 72 members. That's 672 people, every single Monday, who've been scattered throughout our city, in their homes, in their workplaces, who are Holy Spirit filled, empowered people to declare the mighty works of God, all throughout our city, every single week.
Speaker 2:The goal of both our churches is we wanna see Jesus glorified. The vision of redeemer in in Grace Fellowship is that Jesus would be glorified. And Jesus is glorified when his people are declaring the mighty works of God in their places. When you think of the sheer number of a church redeemer's size in in Grace Fellowship and any other good churches around the city, when we're out there as God sent people, can you imagine the the God glorifying, Jesus exalting impact that that can have? I mean, a whole city could be renewed by that.
Speaker 2:And even more so, and even more importantly, one day when the knowledge of the Lord fills the earth like the waters cover the sea and worshipers are gathered from every tongue and tribe and nation, we will know that we were able to participate in that. And not because we have to, but because we get to. Okay? 5 minute break, and then let's have some time for q and a. So, find your seat, and let me just settle a couple of just ground rules for our q and a time.
Speaker 2:Just if you haven't been to TalkBack before, it's good for you to know this. You know, there's there's 10,000 things that I that I thought about saying to you, and I didn't say all those things, because I was really hoping through some question answer we could begin to, kind of, cover a few extra things that maybe should have been said or could have been said. So, you know, we purposely leave these talks, kind of, limited so that Q and A can really fill them out. And here's another thing I want you to know, Our q and a time is not like a stump the teacher time, because that's way too easy. Like, that's so easy.
Speaker 2:So, and I'll just not be afraid to tell you I have no earthly idea, which will really help things. But you just kind of asked me ask me some questions that that when we're starting you, they can be theological, they can be biblical, they can be about culture, they can be about practice, practical things. Whatever you guys wanna ask, fire away and I'm gonna watch your clock so we don't run too long. Yeah. Thanks.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and and one thing that I I wanted to say and I'll just say it right here is that, you know, when we articulate that that story, what I call a story, you know, what Jesus has done in and what God has done in Christ. See, the Bible say that that message alone carries with it the power to save. K. So that that's one reason our stumbling is is not that big a deal.
Speaker 2:K. Because the message itself carries the power, the authority with it. Anybody have a question? Yes, sir. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, that's a great question, Roy. So the question was, you don't have to reach a certain acumen or whatever before you can start sharing, but is there a line that you have to draw? And I'm going to say no to that. I I think when you see in the scriptures, you see people who experience something of Jesus and and and they're not put together, they we don't even know sometimes if they pledge their loyalty to Jesus. But what we do see is that they go and they begin declaring what he's done.
Speaker 2:So I would say all you need is just is just the smallest, especially when it's your own story, just the smallest taste of God's grace and his mercy. And I would I'd start sharing there. I would I wouldn't worry about some kind of deficiency in that way. That's a good question.
Jeffrey Heine:Well, it's something that I it said, we
Speaker 2:overcome him by the word of the lamb
Jeffrey Heine:and the word of our testimony.
Speaker 2:Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. Exactly. We overcome by the by the word of our testimony in the blood of the lamb.
Speaker 2:Amen, brother. Questions? Anybody? Beach. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, what Brian asked can y'all hear back there? Okay. Alright. So what what Brian asked is the idea of being intentional. But when you're in those intentional conversations, do I know of any, like, go to questions that that have really been effective in in opening up those avenues of conversation?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna, answer this in a dissatisfying way. K? I'm a pastor. Okay? And this is actually sometimes a disadvantage in these conversations.
Speaker 2:I mean, honestly, like, I met a guy in my neighborhood one time and, I told him I was a pastor and he was, like, boom over in this conversation. But because I'm a pastor, people kind of expect spiritual talk from me. You get what I mean? So, people sit down with me and if they know I'm a pastor, they don't even have to be Christian, but but I'm gonna say to them, how's your soul? Because that's my question, you know.
Speaker 2:And and and then so it's like it's like, I feel like I'm gonna I'm in a little different spot. So what I would say to you though is I don't see why that can also apply for you though. You see what I'm saying? So I I think that in be just having to know you and know you're a really, like, caring person, you know, so I would just say, like, a good question of, like like, how are you? And in listening, you know how hard it is to listen?
Speaker 2:Have you ever tried listening to somebody? I'm I'm not joking. Have you ever tried really listening to somebody? So asking somebody how you're doing and they tell you, and then maybe just saying to them, like, what's that like? I mean that that to me there's just no substitute for really good listening.
Speaker 2:But on top of that, then I would say also, I I I feel like if you're around the kind of people who enjoy talking about current events, sometimes that can open up come like, conversation about the things you value and things like that. So that's maybe how to answer that. Aaron? Yes. So, the question was, I talked about fluency and, maybe even over against methods.
Speaker 2:Do I see value methods? Yeah. I absolutely do. I think I think there are certain methods that are better than others. I I don't, I don't know that I'm prepared to just rattle off which ones I think those are right now, but I would say that that certainly, tools that you can use to begin to kind of think through what a conversation like that, how that gets shaped, I think those things can be really helpful.
Speaker 2:I think where we where we run into trouble though is when we begin to understand those things like a script or a pitch, Because what you'll find is in those kind of conversations, people won't always say the next thing they were supposed to have said. And then you're like, crap. Now what? And then you you know what I mean. So so I think, I think they're they're good tools that that help you.
Speaker 2:I mean, for, you know, for example, I I just know somebody who just kinda traces that biblical plot line of creation, fall, redemption, new creation. Just sort of the story of the scriptures as as sort of their way to talk about God and his holiness, and in our sin, and our fallenness, and our need to respond to the good news of Jesus. I I think they're great methods. I don't discount any of those. So
Jeffrey Heine:John.
Speaker 2:Yes. So there's a question from John Colburn. John is pastoral assistant at Grace Fellowship, by the way. So John was gone on vacation last week and I literally couldn't do anything about him. So I'll tell you guys how much I love John and his wife, April.
Speaker 2:But that's question from John. And the question is, basically, you look down and you realize everybody I hang around is Christian people. Does anybody feel that way, by the way? Can I give a little show of hands? K.
Speaker 2:I feel that way often. K. And I think, you know, I'm a pastor and and I work with you know, I I can feel that way a lot of times. John, the only thing I would know to say is, I think if you buy into the fact that the sovereign God who has ordained this great end, that his glory would be known, that in in his ordained a means that you're involved with that. I think if you own that, I think you begin to ask the spirit to guide you into what that would mean and look like.
Speaker 2:And And then I think we gotta realize that there's such a thing as costly obedience, and there's such a thing as sacrificing something of our comfort. And and I just think you have to begin having those thinking those things. You have to start thinking through things, like, when I get home from work, man, I'm just, like, so wiped out. I'm so tired, and it's 5 o'clock in the afternoon, and I really would prefer to just watch Netflix till 10 o'clock, you know. But I wonder if I can be present.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you gotta start asking those hard questions, and then I would say you you might wanna be intentional about trying to find ways to change that. So I think that's where you offer your presence to other things, like, you you know, I I I just think you have to start being intentional in stepping outside, maybe to do that. Gannon in the back. Yeah. So that's really good.
Speaker 2:So Gannon is asking the distinction or just speak to the idea of the gift of evangelism. So, I would say that a gift of evangelism, this is sort of my experience pastorally, is that it does seem like certain people are probably better at this than others in a in a in a certain kind of way. Does that make sense? That that maybe conversation around the things of Christ flow a little more naturally to them. By the way, I think there is a difference between what I'm describing here and someone just being kind of a gregarious people person.
Speaker 2:In other words, I think people can be introverted and still have the gift of evangelism. I wanna I wanna be clear about that, you know. I know a couple of introverted people, I can think of them top my head right now, that just can get into these gospel conversations with people so naturally. So I I think there is something there. I would also tend to wonder if, if it has something to do with God's providential, like, ordering of your life and placement of your life.
Speaker 2:So if you have a heart for people and, and you have found that you, there's a certain kind of special sense of being used by God in gospel conversations, and God has happened to place you in a workplace where a lot of people don't know Jesus, I'd wanna begin to have the conversation, like, could you be gifted for evangelism by the Holy Spirit to direct you to these ends, not just to be equality. So I do think I mean, the scriptures teach that there is a gift of evangelism, And I totally affirm that, but I also would say that that that is true at the same time as it being a calling of Christians to participate in declaring the mighty works of God. I think they both kind of happen. They're both they both exist. Henry.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in other words, if God if evangelism has to do with speaking, how are you listening while you're speaking? Sort of yeah. So, when I when I was referring to listening earlier, I think I I think what I was trying to get at is a spirit sort of led deep deep, kinda, listening to a person in their situation. Right?
Speaker 2:So that then you would know this is like a Saint Augustine term. Augustine would talk about being able to apply the medicine of the gospel in the right dose for the ailment in front of him. Does that make sense? So so I think kinda what I'm referring to is a kind of listening that involves knowing what aspect of the good news of Jesus would be medicine for their soul in that given moment. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Not not not that you don't don't share, kinda, all of it, but but you kinda an awareness of that. Okay? So let me just give you, like, one small example. So I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna use names. I'm trying to be kind of vague on this because, you know, you just never know.
Speaker 2:But a college student that I used to work with was basically from another part of the country. He ended up randomly in Birmingham for a certain a certain amount of time, kind of randomly. He came to a college ministry event that I was leading, essentially because he was forced to. He came the next week, and he came the next week, and he came next week. So after, like, week 4, he came up to me and he said, he said, man, like, I know this is crazy.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm an American, but, I can remember going to a church one time when I was, like, 4, but I I've never heard of any of this. Like, you're you're saying all this about Jesus and his cross, I'm I've never heard of any of it. And he said, and and he here's, like, literally what he said. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna edit what he said. He he basically said, can we get together and you just tell me the whole thing?
Speaker 2:Because I wanna make sure it's not bull. K? So can you tell me the the whole thing? So I said, yes. I can tell you the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, now through some other conversation with him, kind of, listening, I I I came to understand there were some really deep sin issues, some real brokenness, real real deep stuff. And so when I'm kinda talking through the gospel and I'm talking about God and I'm talking about sin, it's like I talked a little bit more about sin in that moment. Right? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:I I knew the idea of of sin and him being able to understand that that the thing he experiences is a thing, you know, it's a thing, like like this deep deep level of of failure and sin is actually a thing human beings experience. So I'm talking about all this and and and he's just telling me all this stuff and when he heard about sort of the the doctrine of sin, he was unbelievably relieved because he realized he wasn't alone and that it was like a thing. That's literally what he said. He goes, you know what you mean? So that's like a thing.
Speaker 2:I said, yeah. It is. So that's kinda what I mean when I'm talking about listing. I'm saying, like, a way of kind of trying to discern, kinda, deeply what exact part of the good news of gospel. In this case, sin and what it's done and and it the precise thing Jesus has done about sin.
Speaker 2:Things like, not only does Jesus forgives sin, but he he he removes shame. So that's a categorical aspect of the good news of Jesus that's just slightly different than just forgiveness. Does that make sense? So that's the kind of listening I mean. And then sure, while you're I mean, I think there's a kind of prayerful listening you can do while you're speaking.
Speaker 2:And Yeah. That's what I'd say. Yes, sir. Yeah. And I was actually when you start talking, I was gonna use that phrase, Flannery O'Connor, the Catholic writer, called the South the Christ haunted South.
Speaker 2:In other words, there's a semblance of Christianity, kind of the air. And I've heard other people kind of call it the inoculation theory. You know, when you get a vaccine, medical people in the room help me here, but it gives you just enough of the vaccine to to to make you resistant to the actual vaccine or the actual disease, I guess, is the right way to say that. Right? It gives you just enough of the the bad things so you're resistant to what am I what am I saying?
Speaker 2:How's it work? Somebody tell me. You're turning. You're going. You got it.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm I'm moving in the right direction. In in other words, there's a way that Christian upbringing, the cross on the south, can can actually ward off Jesus. Yeah. So how do I respond to that? Man, one way I would respond to that is that, I I I don't know it was that different when Jesus walked around Palestine when the Pharisees were kinda strutting their stuff around, you know.
Speaker 2:And so I I think, you know, I'm I'm I think of of people like the woman at the well, you know, she had probably been given a version, you know, of of sort of what the good news was that that was not, you know, shared in the right way. So so what I would say to that is is find the, you know, for that situation, listen carefully and find and find what would need to be said in those moments. Yeah. Davis. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So if you guys didn't hear, Davis was asking if do you still kinda feel this sense of have to? Like, you you get that you don't have to. You get to. You're, like, right there, but there's still these moments of have to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would say I'm gonna say absolutely. I certainly feel that every Christian person I know feels that. Anything that Jesus asked us to do is often hard and difficult, and honestly, most often against our better judgment. Right? I mean I mean, this is like a Joel Brooks' ism, I don't know if he's still here, but Joel just assumes if it's hard it must be God's direction for him.
Speaker 2:Right? So, so, man, what I would say about that is to remember again that, you know, anything worthwhile re requires some trudging ahead, you know. It's it's the same kind of thing as reading your Bible. Has anybody in this room ever woke up and you're planning to read your Bible and you just didn't want to? And you start reading, you didn't get anything out of it, that sort of feeling?
Speaker 2:K. So any any sort of habit in the rich sense of the word requires a kind of against your natural inclinations. Right? So, I mean, I don't I don't know what what to do about that other than to, by God's grace, hopefully, his spirit can lead you toward obedience despite how things feel. But I think what you're hinting at, like a perspective shift of the joy and privilege and opportunity, I think those things help too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's how I'd say that. Yeah. Sam. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let's say you share your faith with somebody and they just are, like, alright brother, whatever, and and just reject that or whatever. Man, that's a good question. Well, I I think I think one thing is when you've removed it from this idea of a pitch you have to get out to get, like, a close on the deal one way or the other. If you kinda have that out of your head, that it's it's more about cultivating these gospel speaking conversations, I think that helps.
Speaker 2:Right? But that still doesn't hurt. I mean, it still doesn't help when it whenever the hurt comes of just kind of a a a what feels like a a big door in the face. Man, my my instincts would tell me that that that that you just just another way is you'd wanna keep investing in that relationship. You'd want to keep kind of returning again with with love and grace and mercy.
Speaker 2:I I'm that's that's the best thing I'd say. Yeah. Joseph? Yeah. So Joseph is asking about employer employer relationships.
Speaker 2:And, Joseph, are you kind of assuming here that it's kind of inappropriate to have those kind of conversations within that workplace or they're still accountable to you in a working right way and that can get kind of hard. Right? Man, so I don't really know what to say to that, but I'm gonna give it a stat a try. This is exactly the situation that we read about at the end of Ephesians and Colossians. In these or it's not exactly, it's similar.
Speaker 2:The slave master relationships is what you hear about. And and what Paul's advice there is to basically say to the slave, I know it's a stretch to call slave master relationships equivalent to employee employer. I get that that's a stretch. Okay? But just go with me here for just a second.
Speaker 2:The, subordinate one is told to serve that person as if that person was Jesus himself. Okay? And then the the person that the the, superior is told to to lead that person and to love them as if as if that were Jesus himself. Okay? And and a a New Testament scholar who's who's a professor of mine, Frank Thielman, when he writes on those, was called the household codes in the New Testament.
Speaker 2:He talks about the whole goal of Paul's instructions there were to do what what doctor Thielman describes as preserving a hearing for the gospel. So in other words, a certain kind of working really hard for your boss, and treating the person who works under you as if they the same kind of kindness you would give Jesus. There's somehow about practicing those kinds of values in the workplace that could preserve, maybe a gospel conversation at some point. So I just point you to those instructions and see what kinda soil that that could till for the sake of gospel conversation. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Unique unique experiences with evangelism cross culturally. I'm trying to think. So so Yeah. So I I can think of something fairly recent with a with a Chinese person, and and just some of the worldview stuff was very different.
Speaker 2:Right? And there was just a lot there. So so what I decided to do is basically just try to try to just learn as much about that as I could and and ask him to teach me about all that. So just just owning that. This is really hard.
Speaker 2:I don't really know how to talk to you about Jesus in given what you're telling me so help me help me help me learn, you know. So just kind of a listening there. I've also learned that in cross culture situations, when I when I use that metaphor of there's certain doses of medicine that are to be applied to, like, the wound in a different way, I've I've noticed that really can be amplified in cross culture set situations. So I have a lot of cross culture experience in Haiti. So the element of that story and promise, the good news of Jesus.
Speaker 2:I just remember having one conversation with the lady in Haiti when I was talking to her about how Jesus's death on the cross defeated Satan. I remember that being a particularly more kind of palpable, bit of good news for her heart in that moment. When she and I happen to know that she lived in an area where there's a lot of voodoo stuff. You get what I mean? So I think I think I think cross cultural situations and awareness of that helps you know kinda what medicine to apply in the right way.
Speaker 2:Makes sense? It's a good question. Maybe one more if there is one. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I do have a list of resources for any of you who want to just think more on evangelism. So this is that your question is different though. She's asking, if they don't wanna read the Bible with you, can you think of other books that would be good? Well, so I would say, this is just my first reaction. K?
Speaker 2:If I had to add another habit in here, I would say learn to study people. Like, learn to become a little bit of an expert in, like, the human condition, if you will. So what I have found that's really stirred gospel conversations in some of my interactions is reading, like, really good works of fiction that really deal with some of the deep questions of life and existence can often spur really good conversation. So I think of, like, a book like East of Eden. That's a really big book, but it's it's a book really about, evil and and sin and how that travels generationally and all kinds of interesting things.
Speaker 2:So that's just like off the top of my head. I would say I would say, like see, because I believe the good news of Jesus really applies to every single thing in the world, I would say that if if really anything the person would wanna read, like so if there's anything that's just new, you know, a a bestseller or some kind on a contemporary issue, like a book on politics or whatever, I would say just whatever you could get a per you know, because it's not about reading the book as much as it's about having a forum to engage ideas. And so and so that's just off the top of my head. Alrighty. Hey.
Speaker 2:I wanna say thank you to you guys. Thanks for being here. Thanks for engaging in this with me. I wanna I wanna do just one more thing. So, my, email address is joel atgracebham.org.
Speaker 2:And I'd love to hear your stories. K. Is is you're out there and about the and about just, like, speaking the gospel to people in your relationships and in your places? If you if you want, email me. I'd love to hear.
Speaker 2:I'd love to hear how it's going, and I'd love to be able to pray for you. So so feel free to do that. I'll hang around just for, you know, as long as you guys would wanna talk. I think that's that's it. So that's all.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I I I guess I I guess I should say one more thing. I I think our final talk back, I wanna say, is August 9th. Fellows in the back, does that sound right? We're going to have one last talk back and Dean George from Beeson Divinity School is going to come and he's going to talk about the the protestant reformation and its relevance for today.
Speaker 2:Y'all, let me tell you something. You do not want to miss August second. It's August second. Okay? So very soon, actually.
Speaker 2:So, it'll be here. So we'll see you guys next time. Okay? Thanks.