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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. This is our special Everything is Political series. Where we're going to help you draw the connections between your everyday life and the world around you. Let's get started.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:14)
Welcome back to our series. Everything is political. Thank you for being here. And today we have Dacy Gillespie of mindful closet, who I happen to know IRL, which is one of the very few people I know IRL because I'm such a hermit. But when we were talking about topics, I was like, we should talk about clothes and fashion. And I immediately thought of you, obviously, because of the work you do and the way you approach your work.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:26)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (00:39)
that is very much liberation minded. So I'm really excited to have you here. And to start, we're just gonna ask you, when did you, like, what was the thing or the time that made you realize fashion slash clothing? And I know those, I don't know, we'll see if you think those are two separate things, but when did you sort of start to realize that the industry you're operating inside of is political?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:44)
Okay.
Dacy (01:01)
well, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm so glad to be here with both of you.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03)
.
Dacy (01:05)
You sent me that question ahead of time, and I started thinking about all the stuff I'm doing now, but then I started thinking a little further back and a little further back and a little further back, and I realized I have this unique experience of being raised by two ⁓ activists, and for a time they were labor organizers.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14)
. you
Dacy (01:23)
My mom worked in a sewing factory and she was organizing workers in the sewing factory. So, you know, which was when I was very little, know, preschool age and early elementary school. And so I always knew the
clothing was political. knew that it was political in a the way that it related to humans and labor rights. And, you know, so that was that's the very first time. then kind of throughout my childhood,
and my being raised by my parents, know, somewhat to my detriment, I was taught that clothing is something that's somewhat shameful to think about. You know, it's really, if you're an idealistic person or a community-minded or activist-minded person, it's something that's superficial. You shouldn't be spending time thinking about it. You should be devoting all of your time, you know, to helping other people. So there was that facet of it.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:57)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:04)
So thanks.
Dacy (02:13)
As I did get more interested in clothing, I started reading fashion magazines and reading about high fashion. I'm talking when I was like 10. I just loved it. And that was very clearly a whole other stratosphere of clothing. I mean, when they would note the prices for some of the items and the little captions, I knew that was certainly a world that I...
Taina Brown she/hers (02:23)
.
Dacy (02:38)
probably would never belong to, just based on class and financial resources and
elitism and all the other things that high fashion can represent. ⁓ So there was that layer. also, my, it's crazy, you know, I started writing this all down because there were so many facets that kept coming to me. So the other thing is that my parents were anti-capitalist and anti-consumerist and so.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:48)
you you
Dacy (03:04)
They were also very frugal, obviously. Neither of them was making a lot of money doing what they did. And,
you know, so not only were clothes superficial to think about, but it was also something we didn't have money to spend on. And it was also something that, again, it was kind of the man trying to manipulate us. So, like, again, I knew that very early on. And that did not deter me from loving it. There was one point in time...
Taina Brown she/hers (03:13)
Hmm.
Dacy (03:27)
where I got really into, it's like embarrassing, but I was probably 13, okay, so give me that, but I got really into collecting the shopping bags from different mall stores. And then I would put the shopping bags on my wall as decoration. And I don't remember my parents making a fuss about it, so that's to their credit, but it's wild how even the way I was raised,
Taina Brown she/hers (03:39)
Mmm.
You
Yeah.
Dacy (03:52)
it still infiltrates, you still want what the in-crowd has.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:55)
I can even see it being as a form of rebellion almost though too, in a way, right? We all kind of reject what our parents, we go through that phase, but obviously it's not a phase for you, but yeah. You know, and I know you pretty well, Dacy, and I did not know your mom worked in a sewing factory. I knew your parents were activists, but I didn't know that about the sewing factory. So it's just amazing like how you can know somebody for years and years and still discover things. It's amazing. And how this does seem like in a way it's kind of in your bones. Well, I'm curious, cause you started, so.
Dacy (03:58)
Yeah, it might have been. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:59)
Yeah.
Dacy (04:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:24)
We've known each other, what? don't know, 13 years or something like that. ⁓ And when you were starting your business, as I think you called yourself a personal stylist, mindful closet was personal styling, working with people to find clothes that they felt good in. And I feel like that was always sort of your ethos is like finding things that you feel good in versus what's trendy, what's flattering, all of that. Like, I think that from the start has always sort of felt like you. And still it feels like over time, your work has evolved in the last
Dacy (04:27)
Yeah, yeah, long time.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:54)
decade plus ⁓ has
Dacy (04:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:56)
gotten even more into that, like firmly in that place and to the point of, think you may be kind of even sort of rejecting the term stylist or feeling uncomfortable with it. So I'm just kind of curious, how has your work evolved from where you started with quote unquote personal styling to where you are now?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dacy (05:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting. I still call myself that because after 13 years, still can't come up with a better term for people to know what I do when I say it. If someone has 10 minutes, I can explain more. So yeah, it's really interesting. mean, that's the first thing I thought of when you asked about how is this political. Because I did start my business.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dacy (05:35)
In 2013, it was kind of the height of the minimalism movement, and I was very enthusiastic about that, and still am. I unfortunately live with three maximalists, but I still like to have fewer things. you know, so I really thought I was gonna go into women's closets, kind of teach them the ways they had been trapped by consumerism and trends and things by looking at what they had.
clearing that stuff out and then helping them buy things, you know, quote, mindfully. But what I realized very, very early on was that not one woman whose closet that I went in could do any of that without addressing her feelings about her own body. And so that's when it really shifted for me from being about clothes to being about...
Taina Brown she/hers (06:15)
Mm-mm.
Dacy (06:23)
body liberation, body acceptance, getting more connected in fat activism movements and all of those kind of things. So that was the real big turning point for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:32)
It was funny when you mentioned being 13 and like collecting the shopping bags. Like it just, it took me back to that first day of school, you know, when everyone was coming in with like, well not everyone, but it felt like everybody was coming in with a new wardrobe and depending on how, what your wardrobe looked like, right? It was a clear indication of like your class, right? Like if your family could afford to buy you new school clothes, right? And so.
Dacy (06:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:00)
I just remember so many years, being 12, 13, 14, wanting so much to be that student that walked in with a week's worth of new clothes for school and not being able to do that. But I think also, even at that young age, that desire to be a part of that group, right? We can talk about that in terms of having
not just access, but also the lore of the proximity to a certain type of power that comes from the social class, and reputation and influence and things like that that marketers and brands really prey on when it comes to the way that they sell their clothing and whatnot. So I'm just listening to you talk about
First of all, just you have an amazing voice. Like I just feel just like really lulled, really, really grounded here talking to you about this. You have a really good podcast voice, it just brings to mind for me just like I love pretty things.
Dacy (07:53)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm, same.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:07)
So
much, so much. so, and I'm not a minimalist, right? You see my background, like I have a lot. This isn't even half of what's in this tiny office right now behind me and around me. But like one of my core values is beauty, right? And obviously we can go really deep with that, right? Like the beauty of people and the world, but also like just the beauty of things. I, and that's something that I am learning to come to terms with because
Dacy (08:12)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:34)
trying to be anti-consumerist while also just liking things and not feeling guilty about it. And growing up in like a super religious household where it was like poverty is piety and you shouldn't want things, right? You should suffer and withhold pleasure from yourself. so like dealing with all of that while...
Dacy (08:43)
you
Mm-hmm.
my gosh, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:58)
also acknowledging that it's okay for me to have nice things, right? That's not a bad thing in and of itself. That has been such a point of tension in my own journey and development. when you work with clients who maybe have similar circumstances or have similar beliefs about what it means to buy something for themselves that they want, but maybe they don't feel like...
they deserve or it's quote unquote unnecessary, right? Like it's a one, it's not a need. So why should you get it for yourself? Like how do you have that conversation?
Dacy (09:32)
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much. That's lovely to hear you talk to. And I really, really identify with two things that you said. One, the love of beauty. I just I do feel very strongly about my surroundings and how I want them to look. And again, that's not always maybe something that I grew up thinking was OK. My parents had nothing on the walls. All the furniture was old and
hand me downs and you know, they're just different kind of people and that's fine. And then the other thing you said was I didn't grow up in a religious household but definitely the prevailing thinking was, you know, I don't know how to describe this but you did a better job but yeah, pleasure is not something that we look for, you know, and kind of suffering is, it almost shows that you're a good person.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:14)
Mm-hmm.
Dacy (10:15)
Right? It's a morality. So I very much identify with that so much. And I do think beauty is important. I have two types of clients. I have the type of clients who are like, I just want to get dressed every day. I don't really care as long as it's functional. I semi-like how it looks. I just want you to kind of solve this for me. And then I have another kind of client that really loves clothes and fashion.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dacy (10:39)
has had struggles kind of embodying that love because of various reasons, some of which we've mentioned and also typically body size.
I think that so many women are conditioned to take care of everyone else before themselves that I think it's actually almost like an exercise that every woman should be forced to do to say like, you deserve something beautiful, you deserve clothes that fit, you do it for your children, you do it for your husband. Why not you, you know? And I think that is something that really changes and shifts things for women, particularly.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:56)
And.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:12)
We've mentioned.
of body size and shape and the privilege that comes with that. We've mentioned class and how that plays a role in clothing. But, and I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about professionalism. And because I think that brings into the equation some of the issues around race as well, because all of these intersecting identities are at play with clothing. And I think we think it's something that's super functional, right? It's just to keep our body clothed, warm, know, covered.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:23)
⁓
Dacy (11:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:40)
So we can go about our days and yet there's all these layers to what clothing means in our day to day lives. And I think one of the places where that's most sort of pronounced and the spotlight is most on it is in the workplace and these ideas around professionalism. And I know you have lots of thoughts on that and kind of, think it's a great way of showing some of the ways that clothing is political.
Dacy (11:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks, Becky. And, you know, we kind of mentioned earlier kind of this sense of that first day of school outfit and wanting to belong and wanting to be close to, you know, power. so one thing that I'm constantly thinking about and constantly referring back to a Sonia Renee Taylor's ladder of bodily hierarchy. Right. And at the very top is a white man. And, you know, any
deviation from that standard, whether you're a woman, whether you have curly hair, whether your skin is different color, whether your body size is not the ideal, quote ideal, obviously, the further down the ladder you get. And to survive, some of us have to, you know, make some of those accommodations because we would be discriminated against and not be able to perhaps take care of ourselves or our families. But
Taina Brown she/hers (12:34)
you you
Dacy (12:55)
You know, when you really think about it, and you know, and it's funny, I've gotten asked to do so many times, you know, I've volunteered
for Dress for Success for years, and sometimes I get asked to do these little workshops about, you please come and tell our kids, like, is, you know, how to look professional at a job? And I started thinking about it more and just realized, you know, which, I mean, this is not a new idea, but what we think of as professionalism in the workplace,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:14)
Yeah.
Dacy (13:21)
is basically look as much as possible like a white man, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (13:23)
Yeah.
Dacy (13:25)
Wear a suit, have ⁓ hair that is tamed and close to your head, know, have, you know, wear makeup but not too much. You know, just basically be kind of a blank box or like a blank slate. And, you know, I want to reject that. And also, like I said, some of us...
Taina Brown she/hers (13:37)
Mm-hmm.
Dacy (13:43)
have to conform to the world that we live in. We can't live in an ideal, we don't live in an ideal world. yeah, I mean, really that comes into, that really shows, I think, the level of white supremacism that does permeate our choices about clothes, right? It's like we may think, I'm just, this is what people have told me is professional, but why? Why is that professional, right? Why are black women being punished for wearing their hair natural?
You know, why are people being discriminated against because of the size of their body? Those things are political. And when we're not allowed to show up as we are, you know, we're being punished for just existing. And that's political.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:23)
Yeah, I think that also brings to mind for me, like people who might like immigrate or migrate to a different country, right? And their clothing, the cultural aspects of their clothing could be very different. I definitely have been in work situations, right?
the way that someone dressed was not quote unquote professional according to like the white male American standard because of cultural differences. And, you know, sometimes that's an issue, right? It brings to mind like in France, I don't know if this ever passed, but I know some years ago they were trying to pass that law where it was like illegal to wear the job in public. And it's like, you know, like how, because, you know, they're,
reasoning or their logic was like, it's hard to identify people, right? If you're wearing a hijab and it's like, well, one, people's memories about what people look like are never, as accurate as we think they're going to be, you know, if there is, you know, a crime that happens, but also like that's, that's a cultural and religious thing that, turns really quickly into oppression, right? And so how do you,
I don't even know what question I have about that. And I remember going, once I got hired, I was working at a hotel and I got hired, for the interviewer, I my hair curly, and the hiring manager was like, make sure you straighten your hair when you come into work. And so, because it was this boutique hotel in the middle of the city, next to a theater where there were all kinds of productions happening all the time, and so there was a certain aesthetic, right, that they were trying to...
Dacy (15:36)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:01)
maintain, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (16:01)
Maintain.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:02)
But even growing up as a child with my wild unruly hair, the goal was always to blend in as much as possible. So I guess the question is, how do we balance? If you are in a situation where you have to do those things, then how do you figure out where the line is, where you're giving too much?
Dacy (16:24)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just want to underscore some of that, too, that it's all about conformity, right? And really oppressing anything that makes us different. women and people of color have to perform this to a higher level. They have to make more effort or else they'll be penalized. And so, you know, I think it depends on a lot of
different factors, right? I had a client recently who was a black woman who had moved. She was in a corporate environment, but she had moved from the East Coast to a corporate environment in Texas. And she said it was just really different there. There was this what you might typically imagine as like Texas beauty standard, you know? But she was very high up and very much an expert in her field. And so we were talking about like
How can you come in and just kind of define and set a standard and a model for, this is me, I have what it takes to do this job, and I'm not gonna look like the rest of the people here? And again, she was lucky that she was in a position of power and able to do that, and we talked a lot about her being able to, because she really was torn. She was like, do I just try and look like everybody else, or do I let these aspects of myself out that...
I want to express. I want to wear a different style of clothing and all these things. And we were talking about how she could potentially be someone that younger women or younger people below her could see as an example of someone doing, quote, professionalism in a different way. Because a professionalism should refer to your work, right? And you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:01)
Yeah.
Dacy (18:03)
So she did feel empowered to start doing that. And then there are other situations where people have to mask a little bit, for fear of violence sometimes. Obviously, I mean, there's so many people who are trans or I think of Trayvon Martin. I mean, there's so many times where physical violence could harm you if you're dressing in a certain way.
In those cases, I wish it could be different, but it's not. And I think it's just like a case-by-case, day-by-day calculation. Someone recently mentioned, I was in a live conversation, and one of the comments came in and said, it's almost like code switching. And I had never heard that, and I thought that really made a lot of sense.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:40)
No.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good way to describe it. I like that you also brought up Trayvon Martin because the whole reason that that incident happened was because of what he was wearing, Because of what he was wearing, the time of day and the neighborhood,
Becky Mollenkamp (18:43)
Yeah, yeah, that's a good
Taina Brown she/hers (19:00)
he didn't think he was dressed appropriately, Because he was wearing a gray hoodie. but I also want to point out, you know, when we talk about like the threat of violence, like yes, physical violence, but I think just the violence against someone's personhood, right? Which can sometimes look like not getting a promotion, not getting hired for a job.
Dacy (19:03)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:21)
getting written up for quote unquote not looking professional or like missing out on opportunities and access to things that can help you and you know your family if you have a family thrive like that is the type of violence as well that we all sometimes people don't understand that as a type of violence but socially speaking it is right violence is anything that is harmful towards someone else towards someone's personhood whether it's physical or not.
Were you going to ask something, Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp (19:49)
Well, no, I was just going to say like so much of this is also why I think I just want to wear sweats head to foot, which is what I'm wearing today. got a sweatshirt, sweatpants. I was like, we're talking to Dacy today about fashion and clothing, and I'm going to show up the way I show up, right? Which I know you appreciate, Dacy, but it does get you thinking about like those choices that you make when you're standing in your closet and knowing that they affect how people will perceive you. And then also sometimes how you're going to feel about yourself inside of your own skin. I mean,
Dacy (19:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Thanks.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:17)
I think every woman, I think, and probably not just women to be clear, but I think this tends to fall more squarely on women where we have that moment of standing in the closet and just looking at the things that we have and that feeling of anything I put on, I'm not going to feel good in my skin. Right. And wanting to feel comfortable, especially I think women of a certain size, you know, when you are not able to shop in a regular store where, you know, you can get go from zero to.
12, maybe the tops of what's usually available and straight size clothing and just that feeling of like, so then I'm just going to wear what makes me at least feel comfortable, even if I don't feel good. And often the messaging that we're getting from people is, well, here's how to choose what's going to make your body, what's flattering for your body. Right. So make your body look better. And in that way, you're going to feel better. And I get that impulse to a degree. But your book that you have coming out.
everyone's she's writing a book that's coming out when next year. Next year called is going to be called unflattering and that's the name of your newsletter on sub stack which will also link to you. You've really kind of tried to take ownership of that word of like unflattering instead of this falling in his idea of flattering. And I'm curious why that is and what that like why flipping that on its head feels good and right to you because I think it relates to so much of this.
Dacy (21:14)
Next year, yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, thank you. First, I just want to refer back. One thing about that professionalism conversation that I don't want to forget to say is that I do think it's on those of us with privilege, white women, women who are straight sizes, to try to push those boundaries of what is considered professional so that we can make a little space in, you know, again, what's acceptable so that other people can kind of come along and feel a little safer.
Yeah, so the word unflattering, just really, for me, it embodies a rejection of so many things. It embodies the rejection of typically, know, westernized and ideal standards of beauty and ideal body. most women do spend a lot of time and effort and a lot of angst, really.
trying to figure out how they can look thinner, how they can use their clothes to look thinner. And what I would really love to see, which I won't see in my lifetime, but maybe someday, is that women prioritize their comfort in their body, how they feel in their body, and expressing their own kind of aesthetic sensibility over making their body look smaller. I think that should really be the last thing.
that we think about and yet it's the first thing. And most people don't even think about their preferences because they just want to be told, wear this, it'll make you look thinner.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:50)
Speaking of thinner, and ⁓ because that just has me thinking about something else that's been on my mind a lot lately and probably yours in this day and age of GLP-1s and I'm not here to cast judgment on medication. think where it's needed and where it's helpful, like that's fantastic. And I use medication for, you know, my mental health and I'm grateful that it's available. That said, in the day and age that there's now medication that can help with weight loss, there are
We are seeing a real shift in the last year or so, maybe even a little longer, towards a return to sort of a 90s aesthetic that profoundly affected how I felt about my body as a young woman. And I think Dacy and I are similar in age and tightness. We're all sort of a similar age where it probably affected all of us that like quote unquote, heroin chic, super, super, super skinny, scarily so, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:40)
The Wavelength.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:42)
thing that we, I think all of us were so happy to see go. I don't love the Kardashians, but I sure as heck was happy about this. Like, let's bring round back. Let's believe, you know, and we're seeing this really sort of, I think, scary return to these really unrealistic, even with GLP ones, expectations around body size. And I'm just wondering, like, what your thoughts are on that right now as you're seeing that same thing return kind of maybe.
your perspective on having lived through it once and what the fears you have around that.
Dacy (24:12)
I mean, have a lot of thoughts, some of them around how it's affecting the people I work with or the people who read my stuff. And I did a piece back in the fall where I interviewed four women who had been on and are on a body-limeration journey, right, where they have worked and spent
lots of energy, lots of ⁓ studying to try and unlearn those ideas that we learned in the 90s. And then they are being put on GLP-1s for really necessary reasons. They had all tried everything else. Like none of these people wanted to be on a GLP-1. A lot of them had come to a place of peace with their bodies, with their larger bodies.
And so there's just this real confusion and lots of mixed emotions about potentially going back into a smaller body when you've spent so much work trying to unlearn that smaller is better. So there's that piece of it. Just personally and...
Taina Brown she/hers (25:16)
Mm-hmm.
Dacy (25:21)
for the world, I'm terrified. I think it's terrible. I think it's awful. It literally makes me want to cry. I just hope that it seems to me that Gen Z is a little more aware than we were in the 90s of the alternative versions of how you can look at bodies.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:38)
Mm.
Dacy (25:42)
And there are so many of us who have woken up to that over the course of our lifetimes, who are hopefully being models for young people and teaching young people. So I hope there is a little bit more of a stronghold than there was back then. But in general, yeah, it's right. You know, have nieces who are teenagers. I have neighbors who are teenagers. And it is, it's not good.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:06)
Yeah, it's really scary. It's really scary. But, you know, obviously also just a clear indication of how like beauty standards are just rubbish, you know, because they will just continue to change. And I think they're I'm sure this has been studied. I can't cite anything about it. But but knowing what I know about, you know, what things get studied and like these kinds of spaces.
just the correlation about where literal politics, the role that literal politics plays and how beauty standards change and fluctuate over time. Because we're seeing here in the US and also in other countries abroad such a sharp move toward conservatism that is steeped in white supremacist ideologies.
idea of women taking up less space, right? Not just physically, but also in the political space and in the home and outside of the home by having rights stripped away by what is considered ideal about how women should look and how they should behave and the role that they play in society. All of those things are interrelated in some ways. I wanted to see if we can talk a little bit about
the role of modesty in clothing and fashion. Just because, again, growing up super religious, that was a really big ideology that I grew up with. It's like, one, you shouldn't want new clothes or new things or nice things because that was too much of a temptation or whatever the case may be.
Dacy (27:25)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:45)
but also the idea that women were responsible for the morality of men by how they dress. Which now in hindsight, I'm like, that's victim blaming. That ties into this whole concept of victim blaming. When a woman gets assaulted and the first question people think of is, well, what was she wearing? So can you talk a little bit about how that shows up in your work and like,
What does that mean? What does modesty mean?
Dacy (28:14)
What does it mean to you?
Taina Brown she/hers (28:15)
You know, I have no fucking idea.
Dacy (28:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:17)
Well, it makes me think of one thing, which is because I was just looking this up earlier when we talk about professionalism, the Missouri House, because Dacy and I are both in St. Louis a couple of years ago, passed a rule that women, interestingly, they didn't say anything about men, but because I suppose men typically are wearing suits. But anyway, women had to have their shoulders covered. Still do, I believe. I don't think they've changed that. So you have to wear a blazer or a cardigan if you're going to be on the floor in the Missouri House.
And that to me is some of that like modesty stuff that what's the sight of my bare shoulders will, does that mean I cannot effectively write laws or debate someone because my shoulders are going to what, what, what does the sight of my bare shoulders do? That to me is what I think of when I think of that modesty stuff is like how much skin can I show before it causes others problems? And what does that mean? I don't know. Cause I, that's what comes up for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:48)
Yeah.
Dacy (29:11)
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting because like most topics that come up around clothing, I think it's a really individual choice that we get to make and that we get to decide about, right? So, you you were taught, you know, this is the way that you have to dress. I mean, there were external rules just telling you these are the rules. And I think...
many people rebel from that. And I think then there are also people who maybe didn't grow up that way, but who also feel a little safer, a little more covered up. And should they not have to feel that way in this world? Of course, would be, again, that would be ideal. That is not the world we live in. And so I think modesty can, it can be harmful and it can be helpful. mean, again, it really, comes down to,
our ability to choose for ourselves. no, I mean, this is one of my big, you know, kind of overarching themes is that no fashion expert, no external voice can tell you what you should be wearing. That is for you to decide. And if you decide that you would rather, like, should you be able to walk down the street with your boobs out and not be harassed? Of course. Is that gonna happen? Probably not. And so you have the...
the right to choose, you know, that you can still be a feminist and still cover your boobs because you just don't want to fucking deal with it, you know? So it's a tough, that's tough issue.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:29)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:35)
Look at Chappell Rowan in the Grammys for anyone who saw she showed up in a dress that was able to be moved in a way where her nipples, her breasts were exposed and the outrage.
over that where I mean, and you could talk time or place, but Grammys are not the Oscars and the general idea of fashion at the Grammys is boundary pushing is stuff that's supposed to be edgier, more interesting. And I think there probably have been cases I don't know, but I bet there have been men who have shown up at the Grammys red carpet without a shirt because it's that kind of place. And it's OK, but not OK for her. And so the double standard and just around modesty or any of these things that we're talking about, there's these what's OK for certain people and not other people.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:16)
You know, how much skin is a Kardashian allowed to show without receiving blowback versus, you know, Chavarone, who's queer or, you know, someone else who's black or someone who has no privilege, financial privilege. And I wanted to ask him the question about financial privilege, because you mentioned being a minimalist. And I know that you have had some strong feelings about fast fashion. And also, I feel like there's.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:39)
⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (31:42)
continue as you I just watch you continue to evolve over the years and you're and I love it. love learning from you. I love how you show up in the world. And I know how you are now is not the same as you are a decade ago or, you know, 15 years ago. And I hope none of us are the same as we were a decade. Right. The goal is that we learn and grow. And I feel like you've come to a place of saying and honoring. There are people inside of your industry who can get very in the same way I think it is in every industry can get really rigid about
Dacy (31:46)
Yeah. Thanks, Mackie.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:09)
you suck, you're failing if you participate, if you're buying from Shein or Tmoo or wherever the places are that are doing that fast fashion kind of stuff, Forever 21, then you're a horrible person, right? Without any acknowledgement of that's lovely and I don't have the skills, ability, equipment to make my own clothes. And also that's not cheap either. And I don't have the money to go buy from, you know, a place in the U.S. that's not using any kind of child labor and all of the things.
And what am I supposed to have to put clothes on my body? And if I don't show up looking a certain way at work, I'll get fired and then gets even worse. And I feel like you've softening on, not that you were ever militant to that degree, but like, I think, you you feel strongly and I agree. Like if we could in a perfect world, we wouldn't be buying from fast fashion. We wouldn't be buying from Nike. We wouldn't be buying from the places that are exploiting labor and we don't live in that world. And so how do you like go about balancing that? And what do you feel about those, that sort of more like hard line?
Taina Brown she/hers (32:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:04)
You're doing it wrong.
Dacy (33:05)
Yeah,
yeah. Well, just to note, I've kind of always had this stance, which is your mental health and your feeling good in your body is the top priority for me. Sometimes we have to get to that by doing things that in an ideal world we might not do, you know? But if we're going to change anything in this world,
Taina Brown she/hers (33:23)
Mm.
Dacy (33:27)
We cannot do it if we can't leave our house because we don't have clothes that fit, right? So that is always my top priority. And that means that, yeah, there's going to be time. I mean, this is it's almost so obvious that like, you know, but yeah, we're going to buy clothes from Target and Old Navy. And, you know, that's going to happen. Our world is not set up for us to make different choices a lot of the time. I mean, people
Taina Brown she/hers (33:36)
Okay.
Dacy (33:51)
in certain size ranges don't have the same options, you know? People with certain financial restraints don't have the same options. We cannot put the standard on everyone and expect everyone, I mean, it's just the same thing as food, right? It's like you can't expect someone who lives in a food desert to eat all organic and grow their own food. It's, know, it's the systems, as always, it comes back to the systems of oppression, right? The systems are what need to be changed, not our individual behaviors.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:53)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dacy (34:18)
We are trying to operate in this fucked up system and we're doing the best we can. However, should you be buying 20 things from Shein at a time? No. If you can go to your local thrift store and find things in your size, great. There are affordable ways around that. But again, just like I don't take my silverware everywhere I go.
I'm not going to be perfect in this regard either, and I don't expect that of anybody.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:44)
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the size thing, because I think financial constraints are a really big one for a lot of people, but also for people in bigger bodies, sometimes it's just hard to like find clothing that fits, that you feel good in at stores that are generally geared towards straight sized people, especially even thrift stores. Yeah, thrift stores, you know, good quality clothing, like a lot of really quality, like
Becky Mollenkamp (35:03)
even thrift stores
Dacy (35:03)
Mm-hmm. yeah,
for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:12)
quote-unquote brands, you know, or fashion houses, you know, whatever you want to call them. Like they don't make clothing that fits people in bigger bodies. Like one of my favorite pair of pants I bought from a fast fashion retailer online. And, you know, because one, they're super cute. They have mushrooms on them. And every time I wear them, I get compliments. know everyone always loves them. Not that that's why I wear them, but I just, love mushrooms.
But the actual fungus, not the drug. Just want to clarify that, because soundbites. But yeah, so there have been times where I'm just like, I need something or I want to buy something for myself. But my options are limited, so limited. And I try to.
I don't know if this makes any sense, but like in my mind I'm like, well, if the price is a little bit higher than some other fast fashion, then maybe it's a little bit more equitable. maybe, you know, you know what I mean? Like you just try to make it make sense in my head in some way.
Dacy (36:14)
Well, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:15)
Also, what are you supposed to
do? Once your clothing has an X in it, I have learned this as my body has gotten larger, like your options become incredibly limited.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:23)
Yeah,
yeah.
Dacy (36:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, there's two things I want to throw out real quick. One is I do just want to refer people to Aja Barber's work. She's a black woman who lives in England now. She's American, and she writes a lot about this issue. And one thing that I'm grateful to her for is for highlighting the financial realities of the people making our clothes. And so just trying to remember that it kind of goes, people are being oppressed on both ends.
Sometimes that's just ⁓ a nuance that I want to mention. The other thing is that, yes, in terms of size scarcity, just a few weeks ago, a British brand called Lucy and Yak decided to remove their size 4X. I just kind of put something out because as a stylist, I keep a spreadsheet of brands that I refer to. If I'm working with somebody who has a quirky, colorful style, I'm going to go and sort my spreadsheet by...
by style and then size range. And on that spreadsheet, I have close to 300 brands. I'd say 100 plus or plus size, they carry up to 3X. But then when you get to 4X and above, it's like 50 brands. And when I say brands, I'm talking like Woman Within and Lane Bryant and maybe not the ideal brands for someone that I'm working with.
And Lucignac was one of those brands. so just to highlight, by taking that size range away, they also, it's just, I don't know, it's when you think of it from a personal level, like, okay, I'm gonna have one less brand to tell my clients about, or someone is gonna have one less option. It is important, it is important. And yeah, I don't really know where I was going with that.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:00)
Yeah, because then you're left saying,
here's your 10 moomoos you can choose from and good luck. Right? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:05)
Yeah, that's the other
Dacy (38:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:06)
thing. Like usually it's like brands who do make, you know, clothing for non-straight-sized people.
It's definitely not my style of clothing. Like, it's fugly. Like, I'm just like, I'm not wearing that.
Dacy (38:14)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:17)
Let's give a shout out to Christians.
I want to give a shout out to Christian Siriano. I know nothing about fashion, but I know that I keep seeing over and over again the most lovely plus size women in Hollywood showing up in his work and he makes things for their bodies. And and they're not things that I say like, like, you know, God love Melissa McCarthy and I know her body has changed. But years ago, like there would be times where I'd see her shop. I'm like, like, no, there's no one making clothes to make her look amazing. And now I see people showing up where I'm like.
Dacy (38:21)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (38:26)
Yeah.
And yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:45)
That is like stunning. And there just aren't enough people who, don't know, I don't know why, but I know why. All the reasons we're talking about why they just don't care to bother trying, saying, this actually forget about flattering, but like, do you feel good in it? And you're not going to feel good in something that feels like you're wearing a tent. Like that doesn't make anyone feel good. Well, and do you see another group of people that I think, because we're talking a lot here about like who's being left out.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:59)
Yeah.
A curtain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:11)
who's being denied. And I think in our society that another group of people we haven't talked a lot about is aging folks. Because when we talk about beauty standards, it's obviously white male, like you said, at the top of that pyramid. But age is another big factor in that pyramid. And so the older you get and the more marginalized identities you hold, the more you become a ghost in our society. And I think women...
Dacy (39:19)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:35)
often experience that where suddenly you turn whatever it is for you, 40, 50, 60, but there's some number in there where I think every woman, no matter how much she has held on to the other ideals of, like, so you could have a bunch of other beauty standards that are, you know, typical, the quote unquote ideal. So you could be white, you can be thin, you know, you can have privilege, you can have all those things, but eventually, well.
Now I'm of
Dacy (39:58)
Well, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:00)
the Jenner lady, but in general, unless you have access to a lot of plastic surgery, you're gonna age out of the beauty standard. What do you see? And I know you've talked a lot about your own journey too of aging and your body changing during this, as we go through paraminopause and endometriopause, after having babies, all of these things that happen to women's bodies. What are the things that women talk to you about with their experience of aging and how that affects how they're feeling about themselves?
Also based on just what's available to them with clothing and what they think they're allowed to wear and those sorts of
Dacy (40:30)
Yeah, well, just, this is definitely something that is personally affecting me, you know, right now. And it's a real shock to the system, you know? And I think the real issue is that we are not taught that bodies will change and that faces will age. You know, it's like you see grandmas, but you never connect that to you. You never think like that's gonna be me one day.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:46)
you
Dacy (40:52)
I had so much entitlement, I was like, I'll never let that happen to me. But guess what? ⁓ Bodies don't listen. But yeah, it's really tough. mean, it's interesting because I am working with a client right now who is just having this really hard time with aging.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:58)
Okay.
Dacy (41:10)
And her body's changed a little bit, it's really mostly the aging for her. And what we uncovered was that she was very privileged when she was growing up. She was like a California beach girl, like stereotypical, thin, blonde, athletic. And she never had to make effort to be conventionally attractive. And so what is really kind of slapping her in the face right now is like, I don't like how I look, but I also don't want to make the effort.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:21)
Hmm.
Dacy (41:36)
I'm not used to making effort. So how do I reconcile, you know, not necessarily loving how I look right now and, you know, also not wanting to make the types of efforts that some other women might choose? For instance, she's letting her hair go gray, right? And she is getting so much pushback from the people around her. It's just unbelievable. People are literally saying, like, when are you going to dye your hair? You're not going to leave it gray, are you? And she happens to have two teenage daughters.
And so one, she also has always considered herself kind of a, don't know, rebel's not a great word, but you know, kind of someone that made her own choices and operated a little bit out of the mainstream. And so what we've done is we've applied that to this issue to say, I'm choosing not to make that effort. I'm choosing not to dye my hair. These are choices I'm making because I don't believe women should have to do that. And that is helping her feel like really
Taina Brown she/hers (42:03)
and
Dacy (42:27)
proud of herself and really kind of in control of the situation. And then another just like real tactical thing we've done is like collected a lot of image, a lot of images of aging women, right? Cause like, we just don't see it enough. So I was like, here's a bunch of aging California beach girls, right? Like they're out there, they exist. Let's look at them and appreciate the life that's visible.
in their faces and you know it's going to be hard for her, it's hard for me, but those are a couple of the things that we're trying to think about.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:00)
What is it you want people listening or watching to walk away with from this conversation? What do you want them to keep thinking about?
Dacy (43:08)
after talking about some of the issues facing women today, I think what's really important, maybe for people to take away, is just to realize that every little tiny action you take makes an effect. It makes ⁓ a ripple effect and it does matter. And I'm talking about things like if one time you restrain yourself from saying a negative comment about your body, amazing.
That's like one time that maybe someone around you won't hear that and take it to think about their own body. Or if you decide not to let your hair go gray, just any kind of thing that you can do that pushes back against all of those patriarchal standards, I think is really worthwhile. And I think that's the only way we're going to keep.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:47)
Okay. .
Dacy (43:57)
from letting the magnification of everything take over. So be proud of yourself when you do
those tiny little things. They are making a difference.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:05)
then I'll show off my little, my gray here, because I have been doing my, letting my hair go gray. It's taking longer than I actually kind of want or would have hoped, but I'm trying to do my part and I appreciate you being here, Dacy
Dacy (44:17)
Thanks for having me.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:17)
Yes, thank you
for this.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:19)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.