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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
196. Brant Elwood-compressed
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[00:00:00] Brant: What I've seen in groups that I think is also a form of scapegoating is a member gets loaded up with that psychic projections, but the group is really interested in keeping that member around. They don't wanna push them out. In fact, they can almost be fiercely defensive of that member 'cause they know that it's [00:00:15] like the member and that dynamic is serving the group this unhealthy way, but really like scratching an itch with the group.
[00:00:20] Brant: Effectively. They don't wanna see that scapegoat leave. They want to keep that scapegoat present so that they don't have to face the discomfort and anxiety and the material that they're like projecting [00:00:30] out onto that scapegoat.
[00:00:32] Stephanie: You must be some kind of therapist
[00:00:38] Stephanie: today. My guest is Bra Elwood. He's the author of Gods Heroes and Groups Relational Dynamics Through [00:00:45] Mythic Archetypes, which he wrote along with his co-author, Adon Moran. Brent has a background in social and organizational psychology and has worked in consulting leadership as well as therapeutic roles.
[00:00:56] Stephanie: Today we're going to talk about unconscious group dynamics from the archetypal [00:01:00] lens. Brent Elwood, so good to have you here. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:03] Brant: Thanks for having me, Stephanie.
[00:01:05] Stephanie: Thanks for joining me. I really appreciated you hopping on this. So last minute, uh, usually these things take months to plan, and then I had the spontaneous opening and you and I have never [00:01:15] talked before.
[00:01:15] Stephanie: I'm not familiar with your work. I didn't have time to get familiar with your work, but I do know that you're friends with my friends, um, guys like Ryan Rogers and Jake Wisker, who I've enjoyed speaking with several times. So I'm so glad that you could join us today.
[00:01:28] Brant: Yeah, great to be on. Those [00:01:30] are some quality folks and some quality followers that you mentioned.
[00:01:34] Stephanie: So before we get into it, what would you like people to know about your background that led you into this work?
[00:01:40] Brant: Well, I would start with, uh, my career [00:01:45] in the therapy world began in wilderness therapy, which I'm not sure how familiar, familiar, uh, your listeners would be at the moment. Certainly. Some people who have spent a lot of time online will have, uh, run into the bad press that, that industry as a whole has gotten in [00:02:00] the last five to 10 years.
[00:02:02] Brant: I think Paris Hilton was one of the big leaders in voices trying to, um, at least on the surface, get more oversight, more standards, uh, of best practices, which are good [00:02:15] things. And kind of on the back end of that, there are, uh, a lot of folks that are directly aggressively trying to take down all of these programs that work with deans out in the woods.
[00:02:25] Brant: And so I'd say that's a little bit overboard, but, uh, I, I say that because [00:02:30] for some people the idea of wilderness therapy is a charge topic. Um, I did that between 2011 and 2015. I was a field guide for four years, which means I was sleeping in the woods half the time. I think I did like 800 days in the woods over that time period.[00:02:45]
[00:02:45] Brant: Uh, it's immersive, powerful. It was a massive growing up experience for me as a young 20 something year old. I think I, you know, I'd been through my college courses in psychology and, and thought maybe that [00:03:00] meant I knew something. Um, and then it was a rude awakening working with, uh, tough clients in like a pretty intense environment, uh, without a lot of backup.
[00:03:10] Brant: And so you learn very quickly in that environment. And I, I did the math and I [00:03:15] ended up, I think four years of that job where you're working a shift on, and a shift off equals about 10,000 waking hours of experience working with small groups. And so, you know, it adds up pretty quickly. Um, I thought I would be a therapist for a [00:03:30] long time and, and something tickled my brain and, and had me, um, start thinking a little bit more about organizational culture.
[00:03:39] Brant: I was, I was getting mentorship that was really growing me at that company at the time, [00:03:45] and I was really fascinated by the fact that, uh, a really stellar staff could leave the company and things wouldn't fall apart. And I was, it was this idea that there's this zeitgeist, there's this cultural element that is really special about that company, uh, at that time.[00:04:00]
[00:04:01] Brant: And that kind of steered me more into this world of social organizational psychology, which is looking at group dynamics, uh, unconscious roles in groups, leadership development, organizational culture. Um, and I [00:04:15] was at grad school, I was exposed to, uh, the tavistock. This is another charge topic. Uh, people may know about the Tavistock Clinic, which is not, not the organization I'm talking about, but the Tavistock Institute, [00:04:30] um, does these experiential conferences where you're looking at unconscious group dynamics in the middle in, in the here and now.
[00:04:38] Brant: And it's very intense, very immersive work. And so I got exposed to that in grad school and, um, [00:04:45] you know, it really. Pissed me off the first time. It was, it was frustrating. And wait,
[00:04:49] Stephanie: you're not talking about a T group, are you?
[00:04:52] Brant: They're similar. T groups have some similarities. Oh, group, group relations conferences is, are what these are called.
[00:04:59] Brant: And [00:05:00] they're, you know, they, they come from the work of Wilfred Beon and, and what he was doing with, uh, wounded Soldiers, uh, in the, in the ward basically during and after World War ii. And so, you know, we'll, we'll get all [00:05:15] into this, but basically I, I was just smart enough at that age in grad school to know that if something could piss me off that much in a weakened experiential conference, there's probably something for me to learn from it.
[00:05:28] Brant: And so, uh, I [00:05:30] stuck with it. I went back and did another one. And, uh, I've, I've made it every single year out to do some of these experiential conferences and eventually during the pandemic, when I had a bunch of free time, um. Pen to paper wrote about these dynamics along with some of the post union concepts [00:05:45] that I'd found very compelling from the therapy work that we'd done, um, and the leadership roles that I'd held since then.
[00:05:52] Brant: Uh, and so Adon and I linked up through a virtual conference and realized we had a lot of similar interests and ended up taking on the project together [00:06:00] and getting it published last year.
[00:06:02] Stephanie: So you had this background in wilderness therapy and you, it sounds like, know about some of the more extreme, unethical things that have happened in the world of wilderness therapy, but your experience was mostly positive [00:06:15] of I hear that correctly.
[00:06:16] Brant: Yeah. Uh, overwhelmingly positive. I can think of, I think two or three kids out of the hundreds that I've worked with where I, I feel like if I'm just being brutally honest, where I was like, I don't think I had a positive impact, the interaction with me. Like I think that the things I was [00:06:30] trying, the, the way I was trying to hold boundaries, um, trying to be, you know, there's times where you have to really like be tough and hold, hold strong boundaries and confront, um.
[00:06:39] Brant: I can think of two or three kids where that went kind of sideways based on my skill levels or misconceptions or misread of the [00:06:45] situations where, you know, nothing like horrible, but probably wasn't a great, you know, just wasn't like a great experience. It wasn't where the way I would hold boundaries or the way I'd communicate.
[00:06:55] Brant: Like I'm sure looking back I was like, oh, that kid probably didn't feel the love. He, he felt like I was a [00:07:00] tyrant. Um, but out of hundreds and, and one of the things that just shocked me so early on was watching some of the kids come in basically looking like zombies who've been playing, you know, video games for 20 hours a day, uh, on caffeine [00:07:15] stimulants and other drugs, and, um, doing very dangerous things outside before they came to treatment.
[00:07:21] Brant: Getting to watch the, the light return to their eyes. You take away those distractions, you give them some dependable, [00:07:30] um, I don't wanna say predictable, but like trustworthy structure, um, basic boundaries that are communicated assertively. And give them a, a set of tools for like expressing the emotions that come up and a safe place to talk about those things.
[00:07:43] Brant: And eight [00:07:45] weeks later it's like the life is back in them. And so, you know, that's not an easy thing to quantify on like a paper test or anything per se, but when you see it a couple of times, it, it, at least for me, it made me a believer really quickly.
[00:07:59] Stephanie: That's [00:08:00] good to hear because I always idealized wilderness therapy.
[00:08:04] Stephanie: The idea of it, I hadn't been on either end of it except, you know, just my own personal experiences feeling that being in the wilderness can be [00:08:15] personally therapeutic. But I never got to do wilderness therapy. Um, but I always had fantasies of how impactful it could be. And then it was disheartening to hear a.
[00:08:28] Stephanie: Some of the stuff that's been coming out [00:08:30] recently about how abusive some of these environments have been in reality. And when you describe some of these kids being zombified, you know, I talk to parents of adolescents and young adults every day who have failure to launch, who spend too much time online, [00:08:45] who don't have enough responsibility or life experience, and I can imagine how something like that could be so transformational for them.
[00:08:51] Stephanie: So it, it brings me joy to hear that, as far as you're aware, the program that you used to work for, are they still doing well?
[00:08:58] Brant: Yeah, they're one of the few, actually, [00:09:00] I, I don't mind naming them. It's, uh, blue Ridge Therapeutic Wilderness and I mean, I, I really looked back at that time as I was in my late twenties, so this was like late development, but I, that was when I like, became an adult basically.
[00:09:12] Brant: Um, learning things, you know, assertive communication, [00:09:15] accountability, how to show up basically in relationships, how to recognize when my own insecurities or fears were starting to, uh, steer the ship and, and how that would. You know, it very subtly changed the energy I would bring to these [00:09:30] relationships.
[00:09:30] Brant: And, and nobody sniffs that out better than teenagers when you're working. They, they, they can get it so quickly. Um, so there, I think with the last one standing in the southeast area that was, you know, in north Georgia and [00:09:45] North Carolina is like, there was a, a hub of a few of them. And, um, yeah, so one of them closed because they had a, a second fatality, unfortunately, which is awful, awful tragedy.
[00:09:58] Brant: Um, [00:10:00] and a couple of other ones just, it became an increasingly hostile environment where parents would consider something like wilderness therapy. They, they go online, they Google it, they get hit with all of these awful, uh, claims or whatever. And then [00:10:15] the price tag on top of that, I think is pretty unpalatable for a lot of parents, which I understand.
[00:10:21] Brant: Um. I think you had mentioned like hearing some of the abuse and it, it's a complicated issue because, [00:10:30] you know, hundreds of, well in, in the industry of wilderness therapy, so to speak, right? Like thousands and thousands of kids are, are going through that process. And if you're working with a population of folks who, uh, a lot of 'em are gonna have budding personality [00:10:45] disorder traits, um, and they have the internet at their fingers, they're going to dislike e especially if they're coming from a very entitled, very permissive parenting background.
[00:10:55] Brant: And they get put into this environment and it's very tough. Even if they are [00:11:00] thriving by the end of their stay within two to four months after that, um, it's not, you would expect that there would be a lot of negative reviews from folks who are dealing with budding person, uh, [00:11:15] like, um, borderline traits.
[00:11:17] Brant: You know, writing about their experience and, and the ability to get so much attention online. So that's like one pet piece of it. But there have been some bad actors and then there are also just some very strange claims. I think one article I remember [00:11:30] was like, one of their big, kind of like punches in the article was like, they, so these kids have to hike five miles a day.
[00:11:37] Brant: Sometimes it's,
[00:11:38] Stephanie: oh no, nothing. Not a five mile hike when you're 17 and fit.
[00:11:43] Brant: Yeah, it was like 40 [00:11:45] pound packs for five miles. And those are, you know, those are small numbers. Uh, we would do, and the kids are, that, that's the thing is the kids would learn that they are capable of doing very hard things like bow drilling a fire without a lighter, um, without, you know, without even a [00:12:00] striker, but like sticks and string and rock and you can make a fire.
[00:12:04] Brant: And so that's, those are pretty powerful experiences, but you cannot create that environment without some risk. And if you keep running that over and over and over again, risk [00:12:15] adds up. Um. Things will happen. So they've, they've spent a lot of effort, I would even say they've taken the potency away from the wilderness experience in some pretty key ways because these programs are [00:12:30] hyper, uh, attuned, hypersensitive to risk, and they should be sensitive to risk, but it's effectively a hostile environment on the internet for these programs.
[00:12:39] Brant: And so, um, where 10 to [00:12:45] 15 years ago, uh, a program might have made a choice to allow a tolerable risk level for an activity that had the potential reward of really helping a kid have a breakthrough moment. Uh, these programs are now opting for, Hey, let's not do [00:13:00] that difficult backcountry hike because hey, if a storm rolls in at 3:00 PM you're gonna be setting up shelters out in the backwoods and you're not gonna be road accessible.
[00:13:09] Brant: And 10 years ago that was not an issue. It was like, yeah, get, get backcountry. Make this a tough experience and. I think that [00:13:15] philosophy has shifted. Uh, the ones that survive are the ones that are very, very tight on risk management.
[00:13:20] Stephanie: So I bet you learned a lot about group dynamics in that setting.
[00:13:23] Brant: Yeah, I, I would say so.
[00:13:24] Brant: And there are very simple, what I would say, very simple templates that they use for teaching [00:13:30] staff, those types of things where it is archetypal. Like I remember looking through the, the staff manual and it's like, here are some common characters you might see in your group. Like the general, the general recruits.
[00:13:42] Brant: Other people, you know, isn't often the one [00:13:45] causing trouble directly, but you might find him laughing at his peer and egging him on kind of thing. And like there were these, I don't remember any more than that at this point, but it was like these different characters that they described. And so you start to like, oh, okay, here's this, these characters I've learned about [00:14:00] these archetypes basically.
[00:14:01] Brant: Um, but the group relations work and beyond have a much more, uh, nuanced structure, nuanced framework for thinking about groups beyond. His ideas were [00:14:15] basically that groups, um, that the unconscious has a mind of its own and it's very, very powerful and that there's the explicitly agreed upon purpose for a group or a work group or a team, like a sports team wants to win games.[00:14:30]
[00:14:30] Brant: Uh, a group at work wants to finish the project on time and deliver a good product. Um, and then there's the hidden contracts, the unsaid goals that are very, very powerful and have like a very strong magnetic pole. BM [00:14:45] had, uh, three that he thought were primary. I don't necessarily think that that there are only three.
[00:14:53] Brant: Um, but his idea was that you see groups get caught in. Pairing is one of the things that he talked about, where a [00:15:00] group becomes fascinated with the relationship between two specific members. Uh, I talked about dependence where. And you, you probably have maybe experienced this in therapeutic groups where the therapist or another member becomes like the expert in the group and, and everyone else like, basically [00:15:15] becomes incompetent and defers everything to that, that member, that's the dependent, um, basic assumption.
[00:15:22] Brant: And, um, uh, fight, fight flight would be the other one. So like getting mired in conflict or avoidance, [00:15:30] uh, and in hi, in his eyes you can look at any group. Um, and to the extent that the group is off task or getting distracted, it's usually one of these, uh, unspoken [00:15:45] unconscious goals that have been, uh, implemented by the group unconscious to meet a need to be one of the group's needs and pulls and, and basically ends up sabotaging the groups.
[00:15:56] Brant: Um. Stated goals, explicit goals.
[00:15:59] Stephanie: When I [00:16:00] think of group dynamics, one of the first that comes to mind is scapegoating.
[00:16:05] Brant: Yeah, that's a big one. That's, and it's one of the easiest to teach as well. Um, there's a thinker, kind of a rad, [00:16:15] uh, maybe like ex hippie guy who, who lives outside of Asheville. I've, I met him before I had, um, gotten the publishing deal, but he had, he's published a few books and I think he even owns a small publishing company.
[00:16:26] Brant: His name's Steve Creamy. And one of his [00:16:30] papers points out that the etymology of the word scapegoat. I'm gonna butcher this. It's in, it's in our book, we actually referenced it and talk about this, but there's a, there's a, a root etymology similarity between scapegoat and um, medicine. [00:16:45] And so the idea that the group, um, has some affliction, right?
[00:16:50] Brant: Some inner, some interrelational turmoil, some anxiety about an external threat perhaps. Uh, one of the ways that the group discharges [00:17:00] that emotional energy that's unacceptable to hold is by projecting it onto one member, uh, which is the scapegoat, and you can see that behavior. One of my favorite, uh, things to point to with that is, uh, [00:17:15] Franz Dewal, who's a primatologist, I believe he's still at Emory University, but he, um, noticed that when you watch groups of primates in the zoo, when the interrelational conflicts start to boil over, they will, uh, often just [00:17:30] band together and start screaming at the tigers next door, who is, you know, behind a cage.
[00:17:34] Brant: Can't really like, interact with them or anything like that, but it's just like, feels so good to have like something to point at, something to scream at. Um, or alternatively, if it's an internal scapegoating [00:17:45] setup, they'll have, they'll, they'll corner one of their members into a corner and, and, and like yell at it and throw sticks and stuff like that.
[00:17:52] Brant: And if you remove that member. Activity doesn't stop. They just pick a new, a new ape to put into the corner. Um, [00:18:00] yeah. And we see human groups, maybe not, uh, in that exact same context, but that same energy permeates our work groups, our our unhealthy work groups, right? Like a, a healthy work group that's able to metabolize that energy, that has a [00:18:15] leadership that's able to see these dynamics and intuit, uh, how to resolve these kind of conflicts and address that energy that, that is causing that anxiety.
[00:18:25] Brant: They're not gonna have scapegoating dynamics to the same extent, like a scapegoating [00:18:30] dynamic is a symptom of an unhealthy group.
[00:18:32] Stephanie: How would healthy leadership, in your opinion, begin to address a situation where scapegoating is starting to develop?
[00:18:40] Brant: So I would say that if scapegoating is developed, uh, there's [00:18:45] already been missed opportunities leading up to that point.
[00:18:48] Brant: One of the pieces that I talk about in the book is that I believe. Let me, lemme take just a quick step back. So historically, the scapegoat, the name comes from, I believe it's [00:19:00] the book of Leviticus, where, you know, they would, um, take a goat and ritualistically load it up with the sins of the community and then walk it out past the community and expel it from the community.
[00:19:13] Brant: And so [00:19:15] that's a specific type of, uh, way of handling it. What I've seen in groups that I think is also a form of scapegoating is, um, a member gets loaded up with that psychic, the psychic projections, but the group is really interested in keeping [00:19:30] that member around. They don't wanna push them out. Uh, in fact, they can almost be fiercely defensive of that member because they know that it's like that the member in that dynamic is serving the group in this unhealthy way, but really like scratching an itch for the group effectively.[00:19:45]
[00:19:45] Brant: So they don't want to, they don't wanna see that scapegoat leave. They want to keep that scapegoat. Present so that they don't have to face the discomfort and anxiety and the, um, material that they're like projecting out onto that scapegoat. And so, [00:20:00] um, in the case where, in an organization, if you're a leader, if it feels like there's a scapegoat dynamic happening, and then that scapegoat is expelled from the group, and when I say as expelled from that group, that could be the person deciding to leave for another [00:20:15] opportunity.
[00:20:16] Brant: Oftentimes it looks like that person just feeling alienated, and if they're talented or able at all, they're, they're gonna go find another job a lot of the time. And so you'll see that happen very, very, very often. [00:20:30] My, one of the points I make is that when that member departs, you have a crucial moment there where there isn't currently a receptacle for all that unwanted psychic energy.
[00:20:41] Brant: And so you can, you can, you can round the group up and [00:20:45] basically like the rapport is gonna be good among the, among the remaining members. And you can like point it out and say like, Hey, look, we had this situation where we really blamed, uh, you know, Jonathan over here for a lot of the, the failings that we've experienced recently.
[00:20:58] Brant: A lot of the frustrations, [00:21:00] uh, it's no secret that many folks in here, and maybe myself included, I've at times blamed Jonathan for that. Whether or not that's true right now, we can look around the room and, and honestly say like, we don't have beef. [00:21:15] And there's not blame going around within this current membership, right?
[00:21:17] Brant: Like the person who we were putting that blame on is gone. Let's take a moment to consider that, that now, if that, if we start experiencing those familiar feelings again, uh, it's likely [00:21:30] a dynamic within our group and not that other person's fault, right? Because currently we've banished it. We, we've tested the hypothesis that it's all Jonathan's fault.
[00:21:38] Brant: He's gone. If, if we start feeling the same way and blaming again in that same [00:21:45] style, it's us at that point. And so there's a moment. I don't think I, the way I just said it was the most eloquent. You gotta know your team, but there's a moment to like highlight that. Uh, there's nobody worthy of being scapegoated in that moment.
[00:21:58] Brant: And people will nod along [00:22:00] because they have not nominated it. Once the scapegoats been nominated, it becomes a lot heavier lifting to try to adjust that. Um, I'm not saying that that's impossible and, and my suggestions to leaders is always, um, I would say like [00:22:15] having conversations, uh, to build awareness around that potential dynamic.
[00:22:19] Brant: Educating your team about what a scapegoat dynamic is. I think you're generally gonna have more success, um, like working with key members to help them [00:22:30] understand what that dynamic is and how it might be playing out like separately rather than trying to preach to a mob, to a group. Because whenever you try to educate that group, you're dealing with the group unconscious, which is very, very powerful and it likes what it's getting from the scapegoating dynamic.[00:22:45]
[00:22:45] Brant: Um, that was one of the tools I would say I learned in the woods is that when we needed to shift the dynamic, um, a lot of the time pulling kind of key stakeholders or ring leaders from the group and kind of doing a mentoring [00:23:00] session and helping coaching, coaching them through like a healthier way to see the dynamic, to see what was going on would go a lot farther.
[00:23:06] Brant: You know, you kinda like build an un alliance with them, do that with a couple or two or three people and then you bring everyone into the group. And so members are primed to [00:23:15] kind of be a little bit more agreeable to another way of seeing things rather than. Just running up against a, a psychic brick wall of a, of an angry group.
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[00:24:12] Stephanie: Yeah. One thing I find myself reminding people [00:24:15] of often in my work is that. Most of us are pretty invested in seeing ourselves as good people and not as bad guys, right? And so if we're engaging in some kind of bullying behavior, if we're treating others with [00:24:30] less respect than they deserve, then our subconscious mind is gonna get to work justifying to ourselves why we're still in the right, and they deserved that.
[00:24:39] Stephanie: And that can make it really hard, especially if these patterns go on for a long period of time. That can make it really hard [00:24:45] to reverse these dynamics, especially where I see them crop up, which is in families, but workplaces just as much, right? Because as people who are engaging in the scapegoating behavior genuinely believe that the problem lies with the other person and that they're not [00:25:00] wrong for what they've done.
[00:25:01] Stephanie: So I feel like that creates this major subconscious hurdle to transforming group dynamics.
[00:25:06] Brant: And the scapegoat themselves is cooperating with this unspoken agreement, right? Like I've seen. A very wild [00:25:15] example that I talk about in the book too, uh, in this Boston conference where a middle aged by all accounts, I think pretty intelligent, uh, therapist was just cannibalized as a scapegoat [00:25:30] by the group.
[00:25:30] Brant: And, and what was shocking to me is that as that energy built up and like more and more focused anger towards him emerged, he started acting differently too. He started acting in a way that encouraged it. I was What? So he was, he, I'm [00:25:45] not gonna say his name, but he was, um, he was a, a gay, middle-aged man. I, I would guess a pretty liberal background, which out of these conferences in Boston that's like, you know, you should be kind of the golden child [00:26:00] in, in that group or whatever.
[00:26:02] Brant: Um, but he said some comment that. Was a little bit ambiguous and, and maybe sounded like negative towards Obama or something like that, and you kind of, you could feel like people wrestle [00:26:15] and within it was a five day conference, so like by day three or four, he was like becoming less aware of his body. I would watch him like, hang back over his chair and his, his hand would be like, in this, you know, a woman's like personal space, like kind of near her, like crotch, even like behind him.
[00:26:29] Brant: And he was just unaware. [00:26:30] This is like a, a gentle gay man. He is not like predatory or anything like that, but he became less and less aware of his body. He's, he played more and more into the character that they wanted him to be. And so, you know, we, we look at that as there's a, an unsigned [00:26:45] contract. The, the scapegoat is certainly miserable in some ways, and this is the part that's a little bit hard for people to digest.
[00:26:53] Brant: They're also getting something from the experience. You know, they're, they're, there's something about like, you're [00:27:00] getting attention from the group in some way. You're getting, um. If you're that type of scapegoat I mentioned before where they're, they're protective of you, you know, you, you kind of know that your, your role in the group is fairly [00:27:15] solid.
[00:27:15] Brant: You're not, there's no ambivalence or ambiguity. Like this guy got angry and stormed outta the room for a minute and the group just felt so lost. Everyone was kind of like awkwardly silent. And, and he picked, what was I, I would still say one of the top comedic timing [00:27:30] moments. Like he, he waited just the awkward, perfect amount of time to open the door again to come back and sit down in the seat.
[00:27:36] Brant: And it was like, okay, now we're back. We have our scapegoat again. It was like, almost like a sigh of relief. The whole group was like, oh, okay, we have the guy we can blame. Um, [00:27:45] but you know, he, he came back like there was something pulling him back into that. Um, so I think that's, that's worth highlighting and it's like a tough truth, especially if you're a leader who's dealing with somebody who is distraught, that they're caught in that scapegoating [00:28:00] dynamic.
[00:28:00] Brant: People generally. It's gonna be hard for them to hear that kind of theorizing if they're in an emotionally unstable place at the moment and they're, they're really feeling like they're getting worked over by their coworkers or the group, um, [00:28:15] to say like, Hey, what's your role in it? Is, is a challenging piece to put in front of them.
[00:28:19] Stephanie: It's probably not the moment I, I could say this as someone who's been in that role many times in my life, projective identification is, is a fascinating process. So for [00:28:30] the, you know, listeners without a psychology background, it's, it's basically a term for this thing that Brent's describing whereby someone takes on and begins to act out that which has been projected onto them because we all affect each other so much.
[00:28:44] Stephanie: [00:28:45] Um, and you know, there's science to back up the fact that our heart rhythms and brainwaves sink up in the physical presence of other people. So why wouldn't our unconscious dynamics affect each other? And why wouldn't we start to take on the things that are projected onto [00:29:00] us? So one of the things I'm.
[00:29:01] Stephanie: Hoping to address today is the positive side of that. You know, how we bring out the best in people, some of the things you set up front about, um, positive workplace culture where someone can leave and the place not fall apart. But as someone who's been [00:29:15] in that projected onto scapegoat role, you start to feel trapped.
[00:29:21] Stephanie: And uh, and, and when you start to feel really victimized in that role and you look for help, it's definitely not the moment for the people you turn to for help being [00:29:30] like, well, why did you put yourself in this position, Stephanie? Are you looking for attention? You know, like, that's not, that's not the moment.
[00:29:36] Stephanie: But I've definitely, once I've gotten to a place of safety, um, away from situations in which I felt harmed, [00:29:45] needed to do some self-reflecting on why, why do I keep finding myself, you know, in the same relationship dynamics over and over and over again? Uh, but you have to do that from a place of feeling like you have free will
[00:29:56] Brant: for sure.
[00:29:57] Brant: I, I don't [00:30:00] know if. I'm assuming beyond probably said this, uh, in my mind, I'm, I'm thinking that the way we say it is a little bit different, at least in the book, but my belief is that our own individual anxieties, uh, act as like surface area of [00:30:15] Velcro for those roles to stick. Right. And so I've been That's a really good
[00:30:19] Stephanie: way of putting it.
[00:30:20] Brant: Yeah. So like I've, you know, I think any human who's gotten to my age has been scapegoated scapegoated before. Um, I could think of a few of those instances. But one of the [00:30:30] things that, that, um, I've realized over time in doing this work is that a, you're gonna get nominated, or the group is gonna try to trial, run different members into these different roles to see which sticks.
[00:30:44] Brant: Like [00:30:45] the word they use in group dynamics work is, you know, who has a valence for what? And if you, like, a lot of the time you'll have a member becoming d like during a conference I'm talking about, well become. Outraged even about some imagined thing you did or [00:31:00] said. And they'll, they'll voice that or they'll take a jab at you.
[00:31:03] Brant: And, and what I've found, this is easier said than done, but is if I'm, if you just like listen to the person you go, they, they might call you whatever kind of name, you're just, just take it in but don't [00:31:15] really react. The interest drops away. People wanna like,
[00:31:18] Stephanie: oh yeah,
[00:31:19] Brant: yeah. If they need you to push back before there can be a dynamic, it's like the pieces won't fit.
[00:31:25] Brant: Yeah. If you're, if you're totally,
[00:31:27] Stephanie: yeah. I, you know, it's, [00:31:30] it's, uh, the, the sort of biggest memory in my adult life of being scapegoated was a T group that was a required part of a grad school retreat at the beginning of my, uh, master's in [00:31:45] counseling program. And so I was in this group with like 12, 13 people.
[00:31:52] Stephanie: And the rules of the group were that you had to basically stay together in the same room for hours at a time and you couldn't leave [00:32:00] and you had to only talk about what was happening in the here and now. In the present. You couldn't make small talk, you couldn't do things that people normally do to create some ease in, you know, new social environments.
[00:32:10] Stephanie: So of course it's just a very confrontational atmosphere from the beginning. And [00:32:15] um, the thing that set the scapegoating off was like, it was such a little nothing burger. It was, um, now it might not sound like nothing when I say it, but it was this, um, Mexican woman said something about her fear of [00:32:30] racism or like experience of feeling like a minority or something like that.
[00:32:35] Stephanie: And I don't remember the words that came outta my mouth, but I know it was coming from a good place. I know it was innocent. I know it was like basically like. I'm so sorry to hear you feel [00:32:45] that way. Like it was, it was like, uh, it was definitely intended to be sympathetic, but like, I don't know, you know, I picked the wrong word, and suddenly they're all like, oh, white lady's commenting on racism.
[00:32:59] Stephanie: Let's, let's [00:33:00] perk up our ears and see if we can find fault in what she's saying. And the reason that it stuck to me. Is because I was my childhood wound that I was the little white kid at the black school where, you know, the, the Rodney King riots were my fault. The history of [00:33:15] slavery was my fault. Like I was a scapegoat from day one over race issues.
[00:33:18] Stephanie: And so for me, you can't just like throw that at me and have it not stick. You know, of course I'm gonna be to become defensive, of course I'm gonna be like, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. You know, like, and so it's, well that's, it's [00:33:30] that de defensive reaction that, that surface area for the Velcro to stick to.
[00:33:35] Stephanie: And it, it's really taken me until my late thirties. Um, despite all of my experiences that should give psychological wisdom, it's really taken me to having a [00:33:45] very, I think, robust personal life, being well loved at home, like being confident in my career to, to be able to be that Teflon like you described, where you just don't react to the accusation.
[00:33:59] Brant: Yeah. I [00:34:00] mean it's, it's, you can see it in the evolving discourse online. Um, I think that not everyone's there, but, uh, a large portion of the, what I would call, call thinking conservatives on X, they don't care [00:34:15] if they're called a racist anymore. Um, there's this moment, there's this show, Silicon Valley, where one of the characters is named Jin Yang, and he's this like ridiculous, like stereotypical, uh, Asian character or whatever, but he, he, he has some [00:34:30] interaction with a character and he's like, he's like, oh no, they're going, they're gonna do this because of their skin color or whatever, and the guy's like, that's racist.
[00:34:36] Brant: And he is like, yes, I am racist. You know, and, and there's, there is no shame there and the charge goes away. And that's, that's like where like the, the humor is in it. [00:34:45] Um, but yeah, I think that, that to me is just so true is if you, if your insecurities become known and become useful to the group, like that is the surface area for unwanted roles to stick.
[00:34:59] Stephanie: And can [00:35:00] we talk about what a, what a no win situation this creates for in general white liberals. Um, because there is this notion of white fragility, right? And then there's anyone who's looking through that lens looking for evidence of this [00:35:15] thing they call white fragility. You can take any, anything well intentioned, anything coming from, you know, a tender heart and frame it as fragility.
[00:35:25] Stephanie: So you're in this kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. And really what I hear [00:35:30] is this collective exhaustion with how white people act when they're afraid of being called racist. But the solution to that is to, you know, for in on the individual level, you have to [00:35:45] stop caring like you're saying about being called racist, about being called anything.
[00:35:48] Stephanie: Just like you say, not let it stick to you 'cause there's no place where it can get in. But on the collective level. Maybe like stop behaving as if that's the worst thing you can call a [00:36:00] person as if like there's this constant waiting to pounce energy. But I, I think I see a lot of people kind of halfway on their way out of that way of thinking, but not realizing how the whole thing kind of reinforces itself.
[00:36:12] Stephanie: People are essentially in a double bind as long as they're [00:36:15] living with any degree of fear that anyone pointing that finger and calling you that name means anything.
[00:36:23] Brant: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's like a zen koan almost situation where, you know, if you, um, in [00:36:30] order to be somewhat immune to that, you have to like really not care if you're like, like people come to, you know, you or whoever the, the, the group leader, the, the group therapist, the consultant, whatever, and, and they're like, how [00:36:45] do I make the group.
[00:36:47] Brant: Not think I'm a racist or a bad guy or a scapegoat or whatever it is. And the answer is like, well you, you can't care if they think that. And so it's like as soon as you like really don't care, then there is no more like incentive for [00:37:00] the group to try to put that on you because it's no longer like this dynamic.
[00:37:04] Brant: It's just like, you know, how long do you wanna throw eggs, exit a concrete wall?
[00:37:08] Stephanie: What do you think about humor as a way out of this? I'm thinking of two examples. So one is, [00:37:15] you know, I have. Step kids growing up in this environment. And one of them is pretty funny and he says that's racist flippantly a lot.
[00:37:27] Stephanie: Like if, if you say the brown [00:37:30] one, you know, he'll be, that's racist. Like if you name a color, he'll say that's racist. You know, like, and I think he is learning that if you just kind of, um, play the racist card until exhaustion, it becomes [00:37:45] funny. Um, and then the other example that comes to mind is Matt Rife.
[00:37:50] Stephanie: Have you seen his, um, comedian Matt? Yes.
[00:37:53] Brant: I don't know if I've seen, I've seen not seen a ton of his stuff, but I know I'm
[00:37:56] Stephanie: familiar. Oh. So for people who don't know, Matt Rife is a, he is a [00:38:00] young comedian who does a lot of crowd work and there's a lot of clips I've seen on social media of him like teasing his crowd.
[00:38:06] Stephanie: And I watched his full Netflix Christmas special and he. He seems like on the one hand [00:38:15] pretty liberal. But on the other hand, he recognizes that in this cultural climate as a young, you know, good looking heterosexual white man with all the so-called privilege, um, that in that role, the best thing he can [00:38:30] do is kind of poke fun at the fact that everyone is so on edge about racism all the time.
[00:38:37] Stephanie: And I, I love the way he pulls that off. 'cause he is almost like, if I can get us all to agree that we're gonna laugh at how ridiculous it is that everyone's [00:38:45] constantly on edge about Oh no racism, then like, maybe it won't be such a boogeyman anymore.
[00:38:50] Brant: Yeah. Uh, I mean there's a reason Robert Bly writes extensively about the jester archetype and the role of the jester in like the King's court, so to [00:39:00] speak.
[00:39:00] Brant: Mm-hmm. And it wasn't just entertainment, like the jester is the, uh. The, uh, one person that can say the hard truth to the king without worrying about consequences because he's a fool. You know, the, the, oh, I'm just a fool. Um, [00:39:15] like any archetype, there's the shadow side to that, right? Like there's the, the, um, the shadowy version of that, which I would, I would even argue people like John Stewart have recently spearheaded where it's like the, Hey, I'm just a comedian.
[00:39:29] Brant: I'm just [00:39:30] asking questions like I, you don't have to take me seriously. But really, they are like planting intentional seeds. Um, and I think it can be, humor can definitely be used in, in like shadowy ways to deflect, [00:39:45] to evade, to co, to cover for insecurities, to cover for anxiety. Uh, and then there's, I think, like really healthy, beautiful ways that it, that comes out too.
[00:39:53] Brant: So I, I don't think that there's like a simple answer to that question. I think that being. A kind [00:40:00] of hip to the jester archetype and the, the role that the jester plays in the metaphorical kingdom of, of speaking truth to power and, and making, um, truth palatable through humor and laughter, uh, is important.
[00:40:14] Brant: [00:40:15] And, um, yeah, it, you know, you get a sense for, especially if you're working with clients or whoever, right? Like who the, the, the folks that, um, use humor as a way to hide, use humor as a way to [00:40:30] evade, um, to stay stagnant to sometimes it's to put like the scapegoating dynamic on somebody else. Sometimes it's to keep the scapegoat goating dynamic.
[00:40:39] Brant: Like it, you know, humor is a, excuse me, a beautiful tool and it can be misused is [00:40:45] my take on it.
[00:40:47] Stephanie: It's a good point. So speaking of things that can be positive, you had said towards the beginning. That you were fascinated by positive workplace cultures. Um, I've seen just so many [00:41:00] examples of group dynamics gone wrong.
[00:41:02] Brant: Yep.
[00:41:03] Stephanie: So I think that's a valuable reminder. What are some of the qualities of a healthy group?
[00:41:07] Brant: I mean, I think that they are a little less exciting to analyze, and so I appreciate you bringing that up because it, the, the stu, if we're [00:41:15] studying group dynamics, it is really exciting to expose the toxic things and they're, they're very interesting to talk about.
[00:41:22] Brant: Um, you know, effectively, at least from the beyond's perspective, like an effective group is one that's engaged with what he [00:41:30] calls the, uh, the work group, which is just another way of saying the, it's aligned, the behaviors and the actions are aligned with the stated goals. So if you're a company that would be like the mission statement.
[00:41:42] Brant: Like are things, are things set up in such [00:41:45] a way to where teams are, are actually working towards the things that they say they're working towards? Um, I'd say. Uh, traits of healthy organizations would, um, include things like, uh, [00:42:00] assertive communication and an expressed appreciation for assertive communication.
[00:42:05] Brant: Like both of those. Not just, not just, that's how that people talk, but like, I, I think like a core understanding the core shared values around assertive communication, why that's important [00:42:15] as opposed to like passive or aggressive communication. Um, I think that it's, I, you know, there's, there are a lot of ways that hierarchical, um, setups can go awry.
[00:42:26] Brant: Like you need generally it's, uh, like [00:42:30] one little factoid is, I believe six to eight is like the ideal team size for any individual project, right? Like, if you have teams that are bloated, that's gonna be a ripe ground for people to feel insecure because they're not [00:42:45] providing, uh, as much value towards the goal because there's like a bloated headcount on the team.
[00:42:51] Brant: So. You know, that anxiety is gonna be managed one way or the other, um, leaders that are promoted. I'm just kind of going all over the place [00:43:00] here. So I, I maybe try to tie this into a more cohesive statement, but I think another thing we talk about is the promotion process. Again, like getting back to values first, are leaders promoted because they did a good job at one level, but don't necessarily have leadership skills around, [00:43:15] um, getting other people involved and empowering people underneath them.
[00:43:19] Brant: You can get like these hyper competent people who at one level of the organization, but if you promote them, they, they fall apart because they're not able to delegate effectively. They're not able to communicate [00:43:30] broader visions. You have to pay attention to things like that. Um, otherwise you'll, you'll end up with a, a team that is addicted to crises.
[00:43:40] Brant: We call it the crisis compulsion, but if you have leaders that have promoted because of [00:43:45] competency, say, you know, say you have a, an organization where there's an excellent therapist. At, like, let's just say like a recovery center for adult men or something like that. Um, and they're an excellent therapist.
[00:43:57] Brant: They get their notes done, they're always punctual. They, they [00:44:00] communicate well with clients. They get good results. They know how to talk people down and really like tune to clients and they're good with the staff. That doesn't necessarily mean that they know how to balance budgets. They, they know how to, um, hire staff that they know how to, um, [00:44:15] communicate the vision of the company and the, and, and the hard decisions that have to come down the pipeline.
[00:44:21] Brant: A lot of times people that are hyper competent and then moved up, become micromanagers and, uh, worse become addicted to crises because they know [00:44:30] how to put out a fire really well. And so they feel valued. They feel like they're able to make highly visible sacrifices that are appreciated in the moment.
[00:44:38] Brant: Um, and so like that would be another kind of sinister way things can go awry. But avoiding [00:44:45] those things and hiring based on first principles, uh, emphasizing communication lines. Just keeping like a really, uh, fastidious eye on where the group behaviors are relative towards the goals that, that they're trying to [00:45:00] accomplish.
[00:45:00] Brant: Any, any, any variance from that is a symptom of, uh, an unconscious pull in another direction.
[00:45:07] Stephanie: You said a couple of things there that really stood out to me. One was that sometimes people get promoted because they're [00:45:15] really good at what they do, but the role they get promoted into is actually more off target for them.
[00:45:20] Stephanie: Like they were in the perfect role. And the other thing I heard you say that was, uh, profound was about people getting sort of addicted to putting out [00:45:30] fires. Yep. Maybe, maybe these are people who operate best in, uh, when there's an element of urgency. And it makes me think from a slightly different angle about a job that I had where I felt like the workplace group dynamics were fairly toxic [00:45:45] and, um.
[00:45:47] Stephanie: I've analyzed that from a lot of angles, but this is kind of helping me think about like, yeah, it did always feel like we were putting out fires and it, it felt like the person in charge [00:46:00] got a sort of thrill out of that. Right? Right. Um, and you know, there would be things like, for example, in that workplace, one of my main complaints was that it was really inefficient.
[00:46:11] Stephanie: Like, for example, meetings would go on for [00:46:15] hours. Things were really unstructured. There was a lot of chaos. It felt like things were just not organized in a way that I could. See my clients, get my notes done, complete my basic tasks and Right, right. And so it felt like I was in a double bind, and it [00:46:30] felt like most of us were in a double bind.
[00:46:31] Stephanie: Because on the one hand, there's all this pressure to be really social and like everyone's hanging out in the boss's office. If you wanna be in favor with the boss, you gotta hang out and talk all day and like consult on cases and go to these meetings that go over. But on the other hand, you need to get your [00:46:45] notes done and see as many clients as you can.
[00:46:47] Stephanie: So the, you know, it's like, well, there's only 40 hours in a work week, so which of those two things do you want me to do? Do you want me to hang out with the boss and talk for hours and gossip and, you know, or do you want me to get my work done?
[00:46:59] Brant: And if you, if [00:47:00] you are the voice that's, that puts your hand up, you know, a lot of the time you are volunteering then for like, you to be this big though, it's not gonna thank you for that.
[00:47:08] Brant: Right. Like, it's this, this is one of the core tenants that I think, uh, is, is one of a great [00:47:15] takeaway from unconscious group roles and understanding of that is that. The group is doing what it's doing for a reason. And if you interrupt that process, whether as a facilitator or as a team member and say, Hey, what are we doing here?
[00:47:28] Brant: Uh, you're gonna get dirty looks [00:47:30] because you're interfering with the groups accomplishing whatever that enjoyment it is getting from that process. And so, like in that case, I don't know if it, this is probably not correct, but one interpretation might be right, that the group, um, [00:47:45] that these meetings running over and all of this, like extra socializing is a way that the group is like running away from something, right?
[00:47:52] Brant: Like a flight response or something that would be like one hypothesis on might make and then look for data to support it. But you know, if you [00:48:00] raise your hand and say, Hey, you guys are, I think we are in a flight response here. Um, you're interrupting the group. Dealing with its anxiety, you're, you're disrupting the satisfaction that it was getting from running because you're now shining a [00:48:15] spotlight and exposing it, and you're, you're gonna, uh, you're not gonna be loved for it.
[00:48:19] Brant: Generally, you know, there are getting back to like the healthier side of things, like a group that really, really builds on a culture of not getting stuck in analysis [00:48:30] paralysis, but in openly celebrating and, and building reward structures around people that, uh, identify ways that the group is, is getting off task and in a, in a team based manner, um, can address those and, and bring a voice to that.
[00:48:43] Brant: Like, that being rewarded [00:48:45] would be, you know, a countermeasure kind of thing, which is a lot of work to build that. But there's, there's been so many times where I'm like, oh, I see what the group is doing and I've learned somewhere along the way. Probably took me a longer time than it should have that, like, you don't, no one like wants [00:49:00] to hear your brilliant interpretation.
[00:49:03] Brant: You know, you'd think that, that, oh, this is great, this is gonna make us like more productive. This is gonna, this is gonna make it so clear what we're supposed to do. It's gonna clarify roles and all this. And a lot of the time you get dirty looks, you know, people like are like, [00:49:15] oh, this person. Um, I don't know if you had that experience or not.
[00:49:18] Stephanie: Oh, yeah. No. I mean, it was like, you know, we'd, we'd go to our meetings and be told about all the things that we need to be getting done that aren't getting done. And you need, you know, you need to figure, you need [00:49:30] to not be behind on your notes. People we're being audited soon. Everyone needs to catch up on your notes.
[00:49:34] Stephanie: But then it's like, well, why aren't you hanging out in the boss's office and talking all day? Are you not part of the team? It's like, what you wanna get me? No, my notes done or what. But like, the one time, the one time I [00:49:45] remember feeling like my boss liked me at that job was a day that I happened to, happened to be in her office while everyone was talking about whatever nonsense they were doing instead of working and she was being really stressed out about something.
[00:49:58] Stephanie: I decided to [00:50:00] play along and I was like, do you need to see videos of puppies and babies? And she let me show her cute videos of puppies and babies, and she liked me that day. And I was like, okay, that's what she's looking for. She's not looking for me to get my notes done. She's looking for me to [00:50:15]
[00:50:15] Brant: be an emotional
[00:50:16] Stephanie: support.
[00:50:17] Brant: Like when I hear that story, my, the, my group dynamics brain wants to ask, first of all, like, what is the purpose? What is the function? What is the organization accomplishing by keeping therapists in that [00:50:30] state of anxiety and being pulled thin, right? Like there's a, there's an intention behind there, an unconscious intention because if you're feeling it, you're, you're, you're holding it, uh, your peers are probably holding it as well.
[00:50:41] Brant: And so why, why is it that the organization feels [00:50:45] this compulsion to keep the therapist spread thin and feeling and, and like holding anxiety for the system? Uh, and then the other one is, you know, like looking at what kind of leader. And I don't have a lot of information, but you know, we, um, we always try to have [00:51:00] this, this lens of what type of leadership is permitted to exist by the group.
[00:51:08] Brant: And what I mean by that is that there's this old Freudian idea and probably like a more like there of western idea of like, the [00:51:15] leader is like in charge and intentional and sees everything and is like omnipotent and smart. And the reality usually is that the leaders are like tolerated by the groups, um, or elected by the groups to represent their interests in some [00:51:30] way.
[00:51:30] Brant: And so it, you don't have to reach far probably in your memory. I, I don't know. But I certainly don't to think about times where the formal leader of an organization or of a group is really pretty powerless because the group unconscious has decided that they don't represent [00:51:45] the, the current important unconscious goals of the group.
[00:51:48] Brant: And so they kinda like disregard the leader. The other members emerge as like having informal power. But that, that question of, in, in the case of you, the boss you're talking about, where there really was like a social [00:52:00] pull. Like, why, what is this boss doing with this kind of like, off productivity behavior?
[00:52:07] Brant: Like what is that accomplishing for the group? What is that doing for the group unconscious? Like what is the reward system there?
[00:52:14] Stephanie: Well, when you talk about [00:52:15] it keeping therapists spread thin, um, I, I think it's about sort of a codependent notion of what it is to be a healer that, um, you have to be feeling as bad as your clients [00:52:30] are feeling.
[00:52:30] Stephanie: And we are working with a high acuity population. I'm not gonna say what job this was, but I'm gonna say we were dealing with people in crisis. And, you know, it's, it's my philosophy that if you're working for and with people in [00:52:45] crisis, that all the more reason you need to stay grounded, all the more reason you need to take care of yourself.
[00:52:49] Stephanie: Organize yourself and you're at work, have good boundaries, you know? But I think that, I will say it was not all mental health professionals on the team. It was an [00:53:00] interdisciplinary team, including people. Yeah. Um, without training in psychodynamic theory. Um, and I think, you know, some of, a lot of people who enter the healing and helping professions have codependent backgrounds [00:53:15] themselves.
[00:53:15] Stephanie: Maybe they were their mom's therapist or maybe they, you know, cleaned up after their dad's alcoholic binges or, you know, so people sort of confuse love and care with being [00:53:30] in the muck with someone. And so I think there was almost this like tall poppy syndrome where you as a therapist or as someone working with this troubled population, can't be too well yourself, because then that means you don't care about [00:53:45] these people.
[00:53:45] Stephanie: Right, right. And it's my belief that the opposite is true.
[00:53:49] Brant: Yep. Yep. Yeah, it's like almost a little bit of like a martyrdom type of thing going on
[00:53:54] Stephanie: there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think for the therapists in the audience, a lot of, so I'd say probably a [00:54:00] lot of my listeners are parents because they're worried about their trans-identified kids.
[00:54:04] Stephanie: But then maybe the second most common group of people listening to this podcast are therapists, including therapists in training, therapists in grad school and internships. A lot of whom are like, I don't know if I [00:54:15] can hang with this industry. It is so woke. There's so much nonsense. Yeah, it's rough.
[00:54:19] Brant: It's rough.
[00:54:21] Brant: There's, um, I, I would say to your point about that, um, well, are you [00:54:30] familiar with Nathaniel Brandon at all?
[00:54:32] Stephanie: I don't think so. Who's that?
[00:54:34] Brant: He was a PhD psycho, and that's, he wasn't in psychodynamics per se. He wrote a lot about self-esteem, and so he is got probably like four or five books on that [00:54:45] topic. One of them that I think is a masterpiece.
[00:54:47] Brant: Oops. Is, uh, the six pillars of self-esteem. But, you know, if I, I take little bits of his ideas around that and, and, and embed them into the group dynamics thinking, kind of synthesize that. And like, one of the things that I think [00:55:00] that, that his ideas in a group dynamics lens might say about that situation you described would be that, uh, if you have a deficit in self-esteem at the highest levels of the organization, like if those people aren't solid, if there's insecurities [00:55:15] there, um, it's, it's likely that they would look out and be very uncomfortable and triggered by seeing therapists thriving and, and not exhibiting signs of anxiety.
[00:55:26] Brant: It's very unsettling. If you have insecure leaders [00:55:30] who don't understand the full, they don't feel like competent to handle it, to see it's, it's threatening basically to see, uh, solid therapists with good boundaries doing work and, uh, going home with a smile at the end of the day. That's like. [00:55:45] Dark and threatening for leadership that lacks basic self-esteem.
[00:55:50] Brant: Yeah,
[00:55:51] Stephanie: makes
[00:55:51] Brant: sense. Yeah.
[00:55:52] Stephanie: You know, it was a mostly female environment and they even had, sometimes their body image issues would actually make themselves [00:56:00] pretty known. I was, one of the reasons I was targeted is I was considered then, and that's funny because I don't consider myself then, like right now, I'm actually 20 pounds overweight.
[00:56:09] Stephanie: I'm a lot heavier than I was then. But like, I still, like, I've never been a thin person. I've just been like, not [00:56:15] overweight. Um, but there were a lot of women with body image issues and sometimes that would surface and someone would say something, let something slip that I'm like, oh, they, they don't like, like it was like me and like a handful of other people who weren't [00:56:30] overweight that they were like that.
[00:56:32] Stephanie: I realized that that was actually some of what was going on. So yeah, the self-esteem stuff,
[00:56:39] Brant: the. I would recommend, uh, Nathaniel Brandon's book over mine. [00:56:45] It is so good. I don't say
[00:56:46] Stephanie: that you're here to picture your books. No, no,
[00:56:48] Brant: no. I, I'm just shooting you honest. For most people, I mean, we talk about his ideas in there, but I think for most people, first of all, I, it's the weirdest thing.
[00:56:57] Brant: 'cause I think the first time I [00:57:00] tried to read it I was like, ah, boring. And then, I don't know, something clicked. Like I was years into my journey in the therapy world, and, and I read it and I was, I was like, oh, this is an absolute masterpiece. And then I tried to hand it to a bunch of people and everyone's like, [00:57:15] ah, boring.
[00:57:16] Brant: And I got like maybe a couple of my friends who are like, oh. So I, I think it's like you kind of have to have been, been a little seasoned to even find it as interesting. But to me, like his connections are, are just phenomenal. Like [00:57:30] understanding the, um, just how a deficit in. One's perce, one's ability, one's like efficacy and self-image impacts relationships on such a deep level.
[00:57:42] Brant: That doesn't sound like super revolutionary or, or [00:57:45] revelatory, but, um, he, he really goes into depth and dials it down. And in my work of looking at how organizations and how teams and how groups work, you know, you cannot, it's a huge factor. Like the, the actual, [00:58:00] the self-image of the leadership and those who actually wield power is like something that gets amplified and um, is one of the most ripe pieces for creating dynamics.
[00:58:11] Brant: It's a highly recommend that book. Uh, I've been trying to get Ryan to read [00:58:15] it. He's too busy, uh, podcasting, I guess, you know, but it's, it's phenomenal. And I think it, I think it should, to me it's like, you know, Carl Rogers' ideas around, um, [00:58:30] around how therapy should be conducted, like. End up being a pretty solid groundwork for a lot of people to like start off with some of that.
[00:58:38] Brant: I look at the self-esteem lens as, as similar, and I'm not saying that as a seasoned a therapist, but as somebody who's been in leadership roles and [00:58:45] has studied groups, I think having, uh, that background and just having read that book and understanding that lens is extremely, extremely helpful for both, you know, me as a facilitator, as a consultant and recognizing like the processes that are going on [00:59:00] here and how those are impacting the relationship.
[00:59:03] Brant: It's a slightly different take than anything I've seen from, um. Other, other big voices in the, in that world of, of therapy and it's very, very valuable.
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[00:59:53] Stephanie: I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. Alright, now back to the show. I'm not [01:00:00] quite sure what all you mean when you say the self-esteem lens, but. Here's what comes to mind is that there's a lot of power in a leader with a noble mission whose personal needs [01:00:15] are already fulfilled in every other way, except for their need for generativity, their need for, you know, contributing to the community.
[01:00:22] Stephanie: And if this person doesn't have issues with things like envy, which, you know, there's, I, I did a great conversation on this podcast with Dr. [01:00:30] Natalie Martinek about unconscious envy in group dynamics. Uh, her work probably blends really nicely with yours. Um, you know, things like envy, right? Like it's, you know, truly at heart.
[01:00:42] Stephanie: Are you? Do is your core [01:00:45] experience one of feeling blessed and grateful for the gifts? You know, I'm, I'm a Christian, so the way I would say is the gifts God gave you, um, the gifts that you have, you know, and equally blessed and thankful that, [01:01:00] um, God gave other people other gifts that you didn't get right.
[01:01:03] Stephanie: And, and how wonderful that we get to coexist in a world where other people bring other talents to the table. And, and if, if a person has issues with unconscious envy, [01:01:15] resentment and gratitude, they're not grateful for their own life or they don't see what their own gifts are, uh, and can't see their limitations with honesty either, then I, I can imagine any of those getting in the way of really sort of the positive side of that projective identification piece we [01:01:30] talked about earlier, which boils down to what we bring out of each other.
[01:01:34] Stephanie: I think so much of group dynamics come down to. Um, well, and especially one-on-one dynamics as well, what we bring out of each other, because each of us is so multifaceted, right? It's [01:01:45] like, which side of you is gonna connect to someone else?
[01:01:48] Brant: And, and your point around the project projections and projective identification, the, you know, where does that come from?
[01:01:55] Brant: Uh, I don't know if people think about it this way, but, you know, [01:02:00] we project the, the psychic material that we cannot accept about ourselves. And that process starts way early when you're an infant, right? Like, you learn pretty quickly, you as, as like little baby mammals. We're, we're completely helpless. And so we have [01:02:15] to like, figure out how to be cute and, and, um, lovable.
[01:02:19] Brant: Lovable, yeah. Exactly. And so that process starts quickly when, but you, we learn that, hey, it's not okay for me to express this part of myself or be, or yeah. Or like, let this part [01:02:30] of myself show. And, uh, you know, you, you like tuck those things away and you, you. As an adult, like the things that you are not able to be at peace with that are true about you, that's the material that then we project, right?
[01:02:43] Brant: So if I'm, [01:02:45] if I have like a, a father wound where I, um, like I never felt good enough for my dad or something like that, right? Like, um, and I, I'm not able to, and I'm like, I haven't, I haven't like healed and become whole with this idea, and I'm looking for [01:03:00] approval from the father figure. Um, and I haven't integrated that father figure.
[01:03:04] Brant: Like I'm gonna project that then onto my boss, like, that's the father, you know, and you can do the work and integrate these things. It takes a lot of time and like painful work. But, [01:03:15] um, no one's, no one ends up being perfect. But the, the person that you're describing, right, like the, like things like the envy, the, the body image issues, like those are, those are pieces that are unintegrated, that are floating around that don't have a home [01:03:30] that.
[01:03:31] Brant: Causes deep anxiety. And so then when something in the environment or a person that we're in a relationship with at work, um, we're able to like, kind of attach it to them and either project the bad thing or sometimes the good thing. It's like, oh, like Mark is [01:03:45] so creative. God Mark's the creative guy at work, and so I'm gonna go to him for these ideas.
[01:03:50] Brant: Like I, now I've outsourced my creativity, um, because I was made fun of for my artwork. When I was in second grade or something like this, this actually happened to me. I was like, [01:04:00] really good at art and if, and this kid I was friends with was like, mocked me for it. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna try at art anymore.
[01:04:06] Brant: And I, you know, like having to rediscover where like that creative creativity lives in you, [01:04:15] that's gonna keep you from looking for a guru in an unhealthy way later on. For example. Um, Nathaniel, Brandon, let's see, what was I gonna say? Yeah, he, he define this is important and I, I should say it, I should have said it earlier.
[01:04:29] Brant: If [01:04:30] you grew up in the nineties, there was this like push for all the kids to have self-esteem. And it was this, it's like a word that everyone hates now because it sounds so smarmy and stupid. Um, but what he's talking about is having a sense of [01:04:45] efficacy, which is the answer to the question, can I adapt and thrive in my environment?
[01:04:51] Brant: Should be yes. That's, that's very important. That's efficacy. And then the other one is, am I at a fundamental level worthy of love? [01:05:00] And those two pieces together are the concept of self-esteem. And so you can have somebody who's hyper competent and we've seen people like this, I'm sure you have, I have.
[01:05:10] Brant: That are, they're very capable and they, they don't doubt their efficacy, [01:05:15] but they really like still have something missing where they don't feel like worthy of in your language, I would guess like God's love effectively. Right. And like grace, you know, if they're worthy of that. Um, and that's not, that's a person that's gonna find a way to self-sabotage 'cause they don't believe they're worthy of success.
[01:05:29] Brant: The flip [01:05:30] side of that is true too. Like you can, you can like build all these affirmations and try to like basically feel entitled to love, but without adjusting to your environment and adapting and becoming, um, effective at meeting your own needs and the people around you and providing [01:05:45] you, you'll never have real self-esteem either.
[01:05:47] Brant: And there's gonna be a hole and that hole is gonna become where, you know, it's like a conduit for anxiety that then affects all these relationships around you in these dynamics form. And, and is that, that piece about your environment is important because like, you know, if I'm an engineer in [01:06:00] like the 19 hundreds working on the railroads, that's like a different, the environment's demanding different things of me, like my setup for self-esteem is very, very context and environmentally dependent.
[01:06:12] Brant: Um, and his other point, which is [01:06:15] really important is that both good self-esteem and bad self-esteem are, um, self-reinforcing. So if you have bad self-esteem, you'll allow people to talk to you in more disrespectful ways. You won't challenge it. You'll, uh, you [01:06:30] know, you press the snooze button on the alarm and you go, well, that's who I am.
[01:06:33] Brant: Like, somewhere inside you voice says that. Um, and it's funny because I overslept my alarm today, but, uh, you know, you, if you have worse self-esteem, you dress less crisply and then people see you and reflect [01:06:45] that back to you. And so your actions, um, you can get off of that track and start behaving as if you have good self-esteem.
[01:06:52] Brant: And that will then build self-esteem of, it's different than fake it till you make it. That's not what it is. But it's, it's like making choices that [01:07:00] reinforce a version of you that reflects back, like these, these good qualities and, and, um, efficacy in the environment. Making, making a hard choice to learn how to be more, uh, capable and productive and self, uh, sufficient [01:07:15] then leads to more decisions that empower that type of behavior.
[01:07:19] Brant: So I, and I'd never heard anyone quite. Elucidate that concept, just this idea that we're either on like upward spiral with our self-esteem or we're on a downward spiral with our self-esteem, and that the [01:07:30] actions influence our self-esteem and that self-esteem influences our actions. Pretty cool stuff.
[01:07:36] Stephanie: Well, uh, I think you're right, but the term self-esteem does feel smarmy to a lot of us. But I appreciate that breakdown. I think that [01:07:45] explanation is one that I can get behind, and one reason that I agree with it is because your definition is connected to reality, right? It's not about creating a fictitional alter ego in your head and convincing yourself that you are that [01:08:00] idealized version of yourself.
[01:08:01] Stephanie: Right? It's more about yes, behaving in a way that's consistent with the kind of person that you would respect yourself if you were that person. So, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's more the neuroplasticity element as well, of positive versus negative behavior change [01:08:15] influencing you your everyday experience.
[01:08:16] Brant: Yeah. It's, it's reality based and, and it's crazy and sad to me too, that we ha you have to do what we just did to have this big talk around it, because it really, that word really has become like, about the least cool word I can [01:08:30] think of. Like self-esteem is like, ugh, it makes me think of. My friend's mom coming into our class in the nineties and preaching to us with some puppets or something like that.
[01:08:40] Brant: And, um, I think people nowadays see it as, [01:08:45] like you said, these hollow mantras of like, I am a good person. I am worthy having, I say that mantras can't have a place, but this idea that that's enough to build self-efficacy and self worthiness and that's just not how it works.
[01:08:59] Stephanie: I talked about this [01:09:00] recently on an episode that will air before this episode airs, uh, with Pastor Chris Leg.
[01:09:06] Stephanie: He's a both a pastor and a licensed professional counselor. And, um, you know, I'm new to the Christian faith and so I'm, I've been in a process for a long time of sort [01:09:15] of becoming a Christian and seeing how my values align with Christian values and how a Christian framework helps me conceptualize things that I've been thinking about for a long time.
[01:09:26] Stephanie: And this is one of those pieces where I really feel like, um, [01:09:30] the Christian perspective on self-esteem resonates for me because it leaves room for our guilt and shame. It leaves room for the knowledge that we are sinners. Right. That, that 'cause I, I feel like without, without some framework, that [01:09:45] allows for some honest voice of self reprimand to come in.
[01:09:50] Stephanie: Sure. Yeah. Like then you're just constantly trying to puff yourself up and you're in denial about those parts of yourself that you're not proud of or, or you're trying to beat down that voice [01:10:00] inside that tells you that you're not as good as you could be. And I actually, I feel like that part needs room of, yeah, I'm, I'm not as good as I could be, but I'm loved anyway and I can be forgiven.
[01:10:12] Stephanie: Like that to me is kind of the, the [01:10:15] two part message that I, I can find some, some peace and clarity within
[01:10:19] Brant: it, it fits perfectly. Like, also worth saying is in Nathaniel Brennan's writing, like he talk, the, that compulsivity towards perfection is that symptom of low [01:10:30] self-esteem. Um, somebody with high self-esteem will be more resilient to hearing difficult feedback.
[01:10:36] Brant: Because they are, um, at ease with this idea of like the truth. You know, they are not in hiding. And so there's a [01:10:45] belief he ha it's so, so great. He's got like, here's an example of beliefs held by people with self high self-esteem versus low self-esteem. And, and one of the, the beliefs with high self-esteem was, is that, um, new information or feedback is not threatening to me [01:11:00] because I'm capable of adjusting and handling the things that life has to throwout me effectively.
[01:11:05] Brant: Um, I, and you know, another example might be like, well, I, I don't have to be perfect to be loved. Um, I don't have to be, um, good enough for anyone. Like, it, [01:11:15] it, it's all of these, like, it sound kind of mantra, but they're really like important core beliefs to connect with, right? Because if we dig down underneath our anxieties, there's usually al always, I'll say always, I rarely use that word, always is [01:11:30] going to be a, a negative and frankly absurd belief.
[01:11:35] Brant: Behind these anxieties generally? Uh, lemme, lemme, lemme be careful with my wording here. There's, there's generally a belief about ourselves that if we [01:11:45] say it out loud, it sounds embarrassing. And so that's one of the reasons why we hide from it. Like I, for me, uh, I remember having the realization, it's like, oh, I, and wilderness therapy.
[01:11:55] Brant: Pretty early on I was like, oh, like when I come in and do inservice in these trainings, [01:12:00] I feel anxious sometimes. And it's because I believe at a core level that if I don't make these people think I'm smart that I'm a failure. And it's like, oh wow. Like as soon as I can get down there and put some air on that [01:12:15] belief, that toxic belief, that's, that's the root and the kernel behind that anxiety.
[01:12:18] Brant: It's like, okay, well I don't actually believe that. As soon as I like held it up to the light and like take a look at it, I can start to dispel that and I can start to like, okay, come on. Like, I don't have to prove I'm [01:12:30] smart every single Tuesday when I come in for a training. Like, that's ridiculous. Like, I don't actually believe that, but it's, it's like.
[01:12:36] Brant: Deep down, somewhere along the way, I adopted that belief. And so I, I'm really kind of going off on a tangent there, but that's like Nathaniel, Brandon talks about [01:12:45] the beliefs that are symptoms of our self-esteem effectively. And so being introspective and truly looking at the, our own anxieties and like what's going on and trying to get to the bottom of it, that is the work of somebody with higher self-esteem.
[01:12:58] Brant: And if you do some of that [01:13:00] work, it will increase your self-esteem. It'll increase your self knowledge because you're, um, you cannot pretend you don't know that about yourself anymore. Like you're the type of person that has done this work or the type of person that is willing to look inside. Um, so it, it kind of like [01:13:15] builds on itself.
[01:13:16] Stephanie: And yeah, when we talk about introspection now, we have to be so careful because there's a line, sometimes it feels like a fine line between healthy and unhealthy introspection. There's a lot of like. Self-obsessed [01:13:30] rumination, naval gazing, self-diagnosis is popular in the culture right now. People with too much time on their hands, too much time on the internet, too much time watching tiktoks about mental illness.
[01:13:39] Stephanie: And, and so they've
[01:13:41] Brant: taken, they've taken the word from us again. It's like self-esteem now, you know, introspection. It's like, [01:13:45]
[01:13:45] Stephanie: yeah. It's like, well, what is healthy introspection? I don't know. I, um, when I'm at my best, I am not thinking about myself so much. I'm just, I am very loving. Um, and I, I am unfortunately, um, uh, [01:14:00] my lifestyle right now doesn't allow me to be as much of a social butterfly as I think I really am by nature.
[01:14:06] Stephanie: But I think my best moments, I'm like, so unselfconsciously just interested in other people and affectionate toward them. And like, if you were to like, [01:14:15] check out my self-esteem in that moment, it's pretty high because it's like, if, if you ask me what I think about myself, well obviously I think I'm. Worthy of, you know, going up to these people and, and, uh, being happy to see them.
[01:14:27] Stephanie: Right. But, uh, but I'm not thinking about myself so much, [01:14:30] and so it's like, um, yeah,
[01:14:31] Brant: I agree with that. It's a maybe a
[01:14:32] Stephanie: whole other conversation for another day. If, if anyone wants to come on the show and talk about like what is, like, what differentiates healthy introspection that's actually therapeutically productive, that helps you become a better person [01:14:45] from just this like, endless naval gazing in the culture that's making people more self-obsessed, more depressed, more obsessive compulsive, they need to get outta their heads.
[01:14:53] Brant: I love, I love that. I think that's crucial. I, what, one thing I would say about it is that you're making me think of Chick [01:15:00] Saint Mi high's flow concept. Like when you're, you know, when you're in the flow of that social whatever, like the social situations where you, you feel like the best is coming out of you.
[01:15:09] Brant: That's like a flow state. And, um, I think that the. [01:15:15] There's a way to like be in flow state with like some self examination too. Certainly not getting caught in it. And I, I agree with everything you said. I, I, I know that I can think of times where I've been in where it's, it's just, it's felt right and it's felt important to [01:15:30] like meditate and get down into what's going on for me and the limiting beliefs that keep coming up and working through those.
[01:15:37] Brant: And so I, I think it's like a little bit of a balance I'm having, you know, I, of course I say this like as we're [01:15:45] getting towards the end here, but I, I would say that on that topic you just said, I, I feel like I'm having this slow motion, like crisis of faith and the world of therapy and, and the positive impact of that because.
[01:15:59] Brant: I don't look [01:16:00] out at all of the people that I went to that I staffed in wilderness therapy with and who did all this deep work. Everybody was just about like, going so deep inside and like figuring out this and blah, blah, blah, like naval gazing. I don't necessarily see those people [01:16:15] thriving and being people I deeply admire years later.
[01:16:20] Brant: And so it's like that quote from, uh, it, what is it, the road where, or no, uh, no country for old men where he is like, [01:16:30] if the rule you follow led you to this of what use was the rule, and I've, I've had that quote bounce around in my head more and more recently. I feel confident that we have not figured out what that balance is around introspection as a culture and as a society.
[01:16:44] Brant: What that balance is [01:16:45] around introspection and self-discovery versus yeah, just going out and living life. Like I don't think that the people I've known who. Sit there and think and meditate and introspect all the time, those don't end up being the people I [01:17:00] admire.
[01:17:00] Stephanie: Yeah. I think, uh, looking at it almost from that reverse engineering standpoint as much, that's how I like to think of about things too.
[01:17:07] Stephanie: So in my coaching work, I, I talk about what kind of outcome can we realistically achieve, and then how can we plan backwards from that outcome? And similarly, you shall [01:17:15] know them by their fruits. Like, look at the outcomes of how people are living their lives and, you know, who do we admire? Who's living a life that we would trade places with, and what can we learn from their example?
[01:17:27] Brant: Yeah. Powerful stuff. Well,
[01:17:29] Stephanie: I, [01:17:30] I wanna respect your timeline. Um, Brent, thank you so much for joining me today. So, um, let's go over where people can find your book and where they can find you.
[01:17:40] Brant: Yeah. The book is called God's Heroes and Groups, uh, relational Dynamics [01:17:45] Through Mythic Archetypes. And we didn't, we didn't talk about any about myths during this con this uh, whole podcast, which is kind of funny.
[01:17:51] Brant: Um, 'cause a lot of the book is looking at. Myth as metaphor, um, for how these group dynamics play out. Uh, it's available. I mean, probably the [01:18:00] easiest is Barnes and noble.com. I think it's on Amazon as well. Um, it's published through Carac out of the uk. Uh, their website is firing the mind.com. Um, I have a Twitter account.
[01:18:11] Brant: It's at the group lens [01:18:15] and. I don't know how, how great that is. I'm semi-active with it. I think my co-author just recently deactivated his. But yeah, thank, thank you so much for having me on. This is a really fun conversation.
[01:18:28] Stephanie: It's been a pleasure. [01:18:30] Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some kind of Therapist.
[01:18:36] Stephanie: If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of [01:18:45] course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production.
[01:18:58] Stephanie: For help navigating the [01:19:00] impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents. ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links [01:19:15] below Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman.
[01:19:23] Stephanie: With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:19:30] [01:19:45] [01:20:00] world.