Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Episode 19 – The ABCs of Anxiety: How to Understand and Overcome Fear

What if your anxiety was actually trying to help you—but your brain just got stuck in the wrong loop?
In this episode of the Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark and Zack break down the ABCs of anxiety—Alarm, Belief, and Coping—and share how you can take back control from the chaos in your head. You’ll learn the real neuroscience behind stress, why your coping strategies might not be working, and what to do instead.

Oh, and yes—Zack tells a hilarious story about being so scared by a ghost movie that he threw his covers in the closet. 😂
Whether you’re stressed at work, overwhelmed at home, or stuck in your own head, this episode will give you the tools and perspective to face fear with courage and strategy.

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
  • What the “Alarm” in your brain is and why it’s trying to protect you
  • How your beliefs (even irrational ones) can amplify anxiety
  • The difference between healthy and unhealthy coping
  • Why your brain loves to “catastrophize”—and how to fight back
  • How to create a simple plan to feel more in control
  • Stories about horror movies, skydiving, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (yes, really)
  • A faith-based reminder that fear doesn’t have to have the final word
👉 Ready for the next step?
Schedule a FREE 30-MINUTE CONSULT with Mark or Zack to see if you’re a good fit to work together:
https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland, Certified EMDR Therapist, and Zack Carter, Counselor & Coach, we tackle real issues—masculinity, trauma, addiction, identity, purpose, marriage, and faith—with honesty, clarity, and courage.

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Zack Carter:

So the alarm. Okay. So that first that first a. Right? So I'm watching this movie.

Zack Carter:

I'm seeing this woman being chased by a ghost. That amygdala is activated. Okay? Not much we can do to control that. Right?

Zack Carter:

Like, that's that's what it's designed for is to alert us. Right? The be, the belief. You know, if you had asked me logically, is there such thing as a ghost? How did it like, no.

Zack Carter:

No. There is no such thing as a ghost. Right? But let's talk about coping real quick and we'll see

Mark Odland:

if Zach actually believed that or not. So that night, you know, I finished the movie and I'm trying to find a

Zack Carter:

way to cope with how terrified I was of that movie. And this scene of this woman being sucked into her bed because this this ghost was hiding underneath the covers. I was like, I've got a great idea. No covers for me tonight. And so I just straight up took the covers straight off that bed and threw him in the closet.

Zack Carter:

Was like, that ghost ain't getting me. And you know what? It worked. Right? I'm still here.

Zack Carter:

Right? This is proof that that's what you gotta do to stay away from ghosts. It's just straight up not sleep with covers on the bed. That's what you gotta do. So in in real life,

Mark Odland:

I just could chat GPT to work up a quick image of you, like, huddled in position on

Mark Odland:

your bed without covers. I that'd be a great

Zack Carter:

That's perfect. Man, I could I could just sense all the clients that are gonna be emailing and saying, hey. I I wanna find someone else. This guy this guy is this guy's off. So so yeah.

Zack Carter:

So look, as much as we're making fun of me right now, this is what we do. The brain like tries to find a way to like say like, I wanna get away from this uncomfortable feeling. Right? Anxiety is intentionally uncomfortable. Right?

Zack Carter:

When you have a when you have a car coming at you on the road, I don't want you to be comfortable. I want you to be uncomfortable. I want you to swerve out of the way. Right? We don't want you to be calm.

Zack Carter:

Right? So the brain is trying to find a way to protect you.

Mark Odland:

Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Godland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist.

Zack Carter:

And I'm Zach, and I am a counselor and coach.

Mark Odland:

And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the lions they were created to be. And today we're talking about the ABCs of anxiety and how anxiety works in the brain and what to do about it. If you're like me, anxiety is something that is not just a distant thing far away, but it's something that most of us struggle with at least at some point in our life where we have someone we care about who's going through it. So so please hang on. Listen to the end.

Mark Odland:

We've got some stories, practical ideas for how to deal with this stuff. And, since you're already here, if you could hit that subscribe button down below, we'd really appreciate it. It helps us keep growing the channel to reach more guys. Alright, Zach. Let's jump in.

Mark Odland:

Kick us off.

Mark Odland:

One piece.

Zack Carter:

Let's do it. Yeah. So I was thinking about this podcast this morning. Knew we were gonna be talking about anxiety and all the best ideas come in the shower. And as I was showering, I was thinking, why do we watch horror movies?

Zack Carter:

Like, isn't that like as a weird thing that we do? Like, no one wants stress. No one wants anxiety. And then we intentionally subject ourselves to serial killer movies, ghost movies, monster movies to be stressed out. And I was like, what is that?

Zack Carter:

What is that? And so, like, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I'm like, I wonder if it's like us acting out what we would do in a situation if this terrible thing happened. Right? So instead of like actually going through it ourselves, it's like, if a serial killer was chasing me through the house, would I do like this person and lock myself in the bathroom or would I just leave through the back door, right, instead of sticking around the house? Right?

Zack Carter:

So we kinda like watch these movies and we're like, why do these people do what they're doing? Why do you go towards the noise? Go away from the noise. Right? And as I was thinking about why we watch horror movies and horror movies in general, I was I was thinking through how, for me, this is gonna be my hot take, the serial killer movies are not that scary.

Zack Carter:

The the solution is pretty easy. You get a weapon, you take care of it. Right? The scary ones are the ghost movies because there is no go get a crowbar and take care of the ghost. Like, you can't fight against the ghost.

Zack Carter:

And so in thinking about that, I started thinking about the movie The Grudge. I don't know if you've seen it. Have you seen The Grudge?

Mark Odland:

I have not seen The Grudge.

Zack Carter:

You haven't seen The Grudge. So essentially, if I'm remembering right, it's been a few years since I've seen it. You know, it's a ghost movie. They, like, go into this house and if you get into contact with the ghost in some way, the ghost follows you everywhere and it will kill you. And there is nothing you can do about it.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And so there's a scene in this movie where, of course, I'm watching it by myself like a doofus. And so I'm watching this movie by myself and there's this scene where, like, the ghost is chasing this woman through her apartment building. She like drives away from the house, she gets to her apartment building and you're seeing these security cameras. And whatever level she's like getting to, like the ghost is kind of like following behind her, right, slowly.

Zack Carter:

So she gets up to the top level where she lives, She gets inside the apartment, runs to her room, closes the door locks, it gets into her bed, and she pulls up the covers and she's shaking. Right? She's shaking. And so there's a moment of lull where nothing happens and you're like, okay. She got away from the ghost.

Zack Carter:

She's okay. And suddenly, this lump starts to raise up underneath the covers. Her eyes widen. She pulls over the covers and suddenly the ghost is there. It grabs her and pulls her into the bed and she's just gone.

Zack Carter:

That scene terrified me. Right? And so as we talk about anxiety today, I'm gonna, like, go through what was happening in my brain, what's happening in your brain as the listener when you watch these movies or what when you're living your life. And, like, what's, like what's going on and like what's going on in the brain and how the brain responds to stress and anxiety. Right?

Zack Carter:

So right now I'm pulling up a graph, I've got a graph of how we have alarm, have belief, and we have coping. Right? So these are the ABCs of anxiety. That when something scary happens around us, our amygdala, which is in the middle of the brain begins to activate. Right?

Zack Carter:

Brain waves start moving faster. Right? Because we want the brain to move faster so that we move faster, so that we get away from the ghost, right? So the alarm happens, everything kind of speeds up. We then have a belief, okay?

Zack Carter:

So some kind of belief like, you know, when you see the stock market go down a little bit, oh, I'm gonna lose all my money. Or the boss says, hey, can I talk to you later today? Oh my gosh, I'm gonna get fired. Or oh my gosh, he's gonna chew me out. Right?

Zack Carter:

And then we have coping, what we do. Right? And so we cope in a variety of ways. It can be in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. It can be eating a lot of food, TV, video games, pornography, lots of different ways to like numb out that amygdala, numb out what's going on in the brain.

Zack Carter:

We have our healthier ways, right? Exercise, meditation, prayer, all the different ways that we can do it in a healthy way. So we're gonna go through each of these, the alarm, the belief, the coping. We're gonna see what we can do about these in order to kinda help with some of the of the anxiety that maybe we're feeling. Before we continue, Mark, did you have comments, thoughts, questions, making fun of me for the grudge?

Zack Carter:

You know, go for it.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. No. I I love the story. I mean, it's a couple of thoughts. I think there's think you're I think you're onto something about why we like why some of us I don't know if I love it.

Mark Odland:

Some of us like ghost story and horror movies and things like that. But I mean, even if you don't love like, know, really gross like, terror horror movies, most people like a good ghost story around the campfire, something like that. Right? There's something about even last night, was reading my six year old this old school choose your own adventure book of, like, surviving a bear encounter in Northern Minnesota. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And he was so into it. Like, he was like he died in the story, and then he started crying. And I'm like, oh, buddy. Like, it's gonna be okay. It's just pretend.

Mark Odland:

It's like it's it's okay. Okay. Let's go back to page 12 and take a different choice and see what and whether it's the horror movie or the choose your adventure book, I think this ties in with some of what, maybe it's Jordan Peterson who said it, but it's almost like our brains are just high-tech simulation machines in a way because we're constantly simulating our own potential death. And that seems pretty morbid, but there is this sense that we're we're seeking pleasure, we're avoiding pain, and we're constantly imagining things to try to keep us safer. And maybe there's some kind of weird relief in being in a movie because a big a part of our brain knows it's fake.

Mark Odland:

So we can suspend our disbelief a little bit, but in the back of the mind, we know we're we're safe. But when it comes to everyday life, we don't know that it's a it's it's not a movie. Like, this is this could be real. This really could hurt me. Right?

Mark Odland:

It's it's, and so it's hard to sort out how much energy, much anxiety to put into certain thoughts

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And behaviors because when our brain is hijacked, we're not exactly sorting things out very accurately or or, efficiently. Right? So I think that, you know, those are a couple of my thoughts about it so far, Zach. But I love it. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

Well Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Well, with that, so like you said, sometimes we're we're having thoughts that are realistic, and sometimes we do kinda what you're alluding to is catastrophizing. Catastrophizing. Right? We're like playing out the So worst case let's go through the ABCs. We'll see what the heck was going on in my brain as I was watching this horror movie by myself.

Zack Carter:

Right? Exactly. Never get idea.

Mark Odland:

Figure that out in one podcast? What's going on in your brain?

Zack Carter:

No. No. It's years and years of psychotherapy is what it's gonna take for sure. Yeah. It's definitely.

Zack Carter:

So the alarm. Okay. So that first that first a. Right? So I'm watching this movie.

Zack Carter:

I'm seeing this woman being chased by a ghost, that amygdala is activated. Okay? Not much we can do to control that, right? Like that's what it's designed for is to alert us, right? The b, the belief.

Zack Carter:

You know, if you had asked me logically, is there such thing as a ghost? How did it like, no. No. There is no such thing as a ghost. Right?

Zack Carter:

But let's talk about coping real quick and we'll

Mark Odland:

see if Zach actually believed that or not. So that night, you know, I finished the movie and I'm trying to find a way

Zack Carter:

to cope with how terrified I was of that movie. And this scene of this woman being sucked into her bed because this this ghost was hiding underneath the covers. I was like, I've got a great idea. No covers for me tonight. And so I just straight up I took the cover straight off that bed and threw him in the clouds.

Zack Carter:

I was like, that ghost ain't getting me. You know what? It worked. Right? I'm still here.

Zack Carter:

Right? This is proof that that's what you gotta do to stay away from ghosts is just straight up not sleep with covers on the bed. That's what you gotta do. So in in real life, I just I

Mark Odland:

could catch you PT to work up a quick image of you, like, huddled in position on

Mark Odland:

your bed without covers. I think that'd be

Zack Carter:

a great That's perfect. Man, I could I could just sense all the clients that are gonna be emailing and saying like, hey, I wanna find someone else. This guy this guy is this guy's off. So so yeah. So look, as much as we're making fun of me right now, this is what we do.

Zack Carter:

The brain like tries to find a way to like say like, I wanna get away from this uncomfortable feeling. Right? Anxiety is intentionally uncomfortable. Right? When you have a when you have a car coming at you on the road, I don't want you to be comfortable.

Zack Carter:

I want you to be uncomfortable. I want you to swerve out of the way. Right? We don't want you to be calm. Right?

Zack Carter:

So the brain is trying to find a way to protect you. And so when we're looking through the alarm, like I said, there's there's not much we can do about that. Like that's there to alert us. Okay? But the beliefs.

Zack Carter:

Okay? So this is what where cognitive behavioral therapy is really strong, is that we analyse the beliefs. Right? Say like, do you have evidence that when your boss calls you into the office that he's gonna ream you out? Right?

Zack Carter:

And if you've got a lot of evidence for it, okay. If it's the truth, what are you gonna do about it? Right. But if it's not the truth, oftentimes we can intercept this fear with processing it in a logical way. Oftentimes we can do that.

Zack Carter:

And then when it comes to the coping, right? What does the brain ultimately want if it's afraid, right? So anxiety is a fear of an unknown future. Something bad could happen. We don't know if it's gonna happen or not but it could happen.

Zack Carter:

And so what is the thing that can calm down that amygdala? What's the thing that could really calm down that stress and anxiety? Is a plan, right? When we make plans and say like, well what can I do right now? Right?

Zack Carter:

We wanna move from being in the future to the present, right? That's the problem is that we're like hanging out too much in the future. We need to come back to the present and say, well, what And can I do right so when you make a plan and you begin to lay that plan out and you begin to act it out, suddenly the anxiety can let up some? It can say, okay, at least we're we're making moves to protect ourself. Any thoughts, comments?

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense because so much of our anxiety about the future is connected to feeling out of control. Right? To feeling helpless. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And I would think most people, most of us, that's one of the most uncomfortable feelings in the world, just just waiting. Just waiting for this thing that may or may not happen. And and and it's hard. It's hard to cope with that. And so, I mean, I've I've heard one person say this idea of, can you find the controllable part of an uncontrollable situation?

Mark Odland:

Right. That's kind of a paradoxical statement, but I get their point. The idea of there's gotta be a nugget, even if it's a small piece of something you can control. Maybe that's and and I don't wanna get ahead of ourselves here, but there you know, some of our other podcasts, we talk about practical coping strategies for doing these things. So so I think that makes a lot of sense.

Mark Odland:

In my experience, you know, doing EMDR therapy with a lot of guys, I I find that there's a lot of fear about the future. Right? Spending too much time in the future. There's a lot of rumination and regret about the past. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And and we're missing out on the present. We're missing out on our our our our own lives. We're some you know, someone put it once, we become a spectator of our own lives watching it go by, and that's kind of a that's a tragic thing. That's a tragic thing. We wanna be more and more present to be able to face hard things head on with with some courage and with with a plan and to be able to enjoy the good things and and not let them pass us by.

Mark Odland:

Right? So I think that's great, Zach. I I appreciate this idea of conceptualizing anxiety, conceptualizing what's happening in the brain. And then as you said, how important it is, how helpful it can be to have a plan to to address it.

Zack Carter:

Perfect. Yeah. Thanks, Mark. Yeah. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

And so as we're kinda coming to a close, so like, you know, so we're we're kinda laying out the basics and, you know, I'll give some examples real quick of maybe some ideas for a few different situations, you know, just just, you know, just as a review, right? So we've got that alarm in the amygdala, right? So it's letting us know, hey, danger, right? Then it moves into that prefrontal cortex where your thoughts are. It's like, okay, what do I believe about what this alarm is telling me?

Zack Carter:

Right? Am I having a heart attack right now or am I just on a run and my heart rate is up because, you know, I'm moving fast? Right? So we've got the belief so we can like work through our belief. Right?

Zack Carter:

We do that through questions. We don't tell ourself what to We ask ourself questions in a nonjudgmental way. Then c, we got that coping. Like, so what do we actually do? Are we gonna go back to, you know, the eating unhealthy?

Zack Carter:

Are we gonna go back to watching lots of TV, playing video games, social media, pornography? Or are we gonna find the ways to, like, actually solve the problems in our life or engage in really healthy practices like diet and exercise, spending time with friends and family, spiritual practices, these kinds of things. So we've said this a bunch of times in the podcast. You know, if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times that we wanna break it into small manageable goals. Stupid easy.

Zack Carter:

Were kind of referring to that a minute ago, Mark. We wanna make these stupid easy. So as yet another example in my life, have we talked about the time I went skydiving on the podcast? I forget if I if we had mentioned that. Have you heard this?

Zack Carter:

I don't

Mark Odland:

know if we have. I don't know if we have, Zach. Let's hear it.

Zack Carter:

Okay. So skydiving seemed like a good idea. Until Okay. Until you get into the freaking helicopter. It stops being a good idea the moment you step foot in a helicopter.

Zack Carter:

And so my wife and I, we decided we'd go skydiving. We traveled to Switzerland. We're like, if we're gonna do it, let's do it with like beautiful scenery. Hop into the helicopter. We're all excited.

Zack Carter:

They close the door. It starts to raise off the ground, and that's when my heart rate rate went crazy. I was like, why did we decide to do this? This is really dumb. Why would we jump out of a plane?

Zack Carter:

Why would we do this? Right? Heart rate's gone, brain waves are going fast, thoughts are flooding. They're flying us through. They're like, oh, just enjoy the flight.

Zack Carter:

Don't even think about jumping out the plane. I'm like, okay. That that seems rational. No. We we finally we get to the place where we're supposed to jump and the the helicopter kinda comes to a halt and it just starts to rise in the air.

Zack Carter:

And we're like right beside this massive mountain and it's rising and it's rising and it's rising. And Mark, that mountain never stopped, man. It just we were rising forever. Uh-huh. And then suddenly it stops and they pull that door open and I'm losing my mind.

Zack Carter:

I'm paralyzed in fear. My wife's over there, woah. Let's go. This is awesome. I'm like dying inside.

Zack Carter:

I'm like, I can't embarrass myself in front of my wife, man. She's like over here having the time of her life. I'm dying on the inside. So what what was I doing in that moment? So first thing, if you guys don't know what box breathing is, box breathing is a really good idea when you're in a terrifying situation.

Zack Carter:

So box breathing is a four count breathing where you inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for four, hold for four. I was box breathing like my life depended on it. Just trying to get that heart rate, right, that alarm to calm down. Yep. So I'm helping it physiologically.

Zack Carter:

And then when the guy's like, okay, we're ready to go. I literally was telling myself, we have to break this plan into small manageable chunks. First goal was to get my left foot on to the platform beside me. Like, literally, I had to tell myself. So it was left foot onto the platform.

Zack Carter:

Then it was, okay, right foot onto the platform. The guy's like, have to pull your head back so you don't bump your head on the way down. So he like grabs my head and pulls it back. And that dude's like, alright. Let's go.

Zack Carter:

And just took off, man. And so I I tell that story so that when you have something you're scared of, sometimes we literally have to break it into just the smallest manageable chunks that we can and we push through the fear. That helps us to push through the fear. So what does that look like? That looks like if you're nervous to have a conversation with someone, your boss, loved one, girlfriend, wife, friend, maybe you're having to confront them about something, start with a text.

Zack Carter:

Hey, do you have some time later on to talk? I had something I wanted to talk to you about. Right? And so what that does is that gets the ball rolling. Okay?

Zack Carter:

So now now they know you need to talk to them. Right? You got debt stressing you out? Okay. You pick the smallest thing you owe.

Zack Carter:

Start paying on that one. Right? I may have told this story before. I had a client who really wanted to work out. We tried the goal as being thirty minutes three times a week, didn't work.

Zack Carter:

Fifteen minutes twice a week, didn't work. Right. Five minutes one time a week, didn't work. So the goal ended up being put your clothes on, drive to the gym, walk into the doors. That's the goal.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Right? And so what I hear the audience members saying is like, what good does this do? What good is paying off a $100 debt when I owe thousands of dollars? What good is just walking into the doors of a gym when I'm not doing anything?

Zack Carter:

What what good is just sending a text? I could back myself out of it. Well, what it does is it gets it gets you from being stationary to moving. Right? And even if you're not moving fast, least you've started to move.

Zack Carter:

And now you can pick up speed, you can pick up momentum, and and you're now on the upward spiral. Right? You're now moving upward towards the goals that you're trying to achieve. Yeah. Right?

Zack Carter:

Any any thoughts or comments on your end?

Mark Odland:

I love that, Zach. I mean, I was I when you're when you're sharing all that, I was thinking back to an old Jocko Willink podcast where he's talking muffin seals. There's this concept of forward center of mass where literally you have to take that step forward for the rest to unfold. And if you stay frozen or stationary or if you take a step backwards, you literally can find yourself freezing up more and more. And so there is something about that.

Mark Odland:

There's that one small step, right, to to just get things moving can make a big difference. And I think the other thing that stood out to me is that if you're struggling with anxiety, avoiding anxiety completely by making your world smaller and smaller, retreating from the world, avoiding everything that makes you nervous, that is not a winning path. That leads to isolation, destruction

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And a really rough life. And so there's there's no way to thread the needle where how do I move from point a to point b without feeling uncomfortable things. It's more like how do I face things even if it's a little bit at a time with courage. Right? Because courage is not the absence of fear.

Mark Odland:

It's moving forward in the presence of

Zack Carter:

fear. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

Right? And doing that with support, doing that with strategy, having a plan. It's not taking reckless decisions that that truly put your life in danger, but it's assessing the situation accurately and being able to take that small step forward and build on that momentum. Right? So that your world slowly but surely starts to expand instead of getting smaller and smaller.

Mark Odland:

And I've never been skydiving, but I can resonate with we've talked a little bit about doing jujitsu. Right? And that that's the same thing for me. It's like someone's literally trying to choke you unconscious in a jujitsu class. Like, if if I wrote the black my black belt instructor, it's like he could do it anytime he wants to.

Mark Odland:

Oh, yeah. And in those moments to be able, like, okay, what's the truth? Okay. He's not really gonna kill me. I can tap.

Mark Odland:

And then I take some deep breaths. I slow down my breathing. And now I can be I can be calm, relatively calm in an extremely uncomfortable situation. And then when it's all over, you kinda feel like, okay. I'm a little beat up, but I kinda feel energized.

Mark Odland:

I kinda feel like I don't have to sweat the small stuff because I've kind of inoculated myself against some of this anxiety. Mhmm. And so, yeah, we're constantly simulating in our minds and in real life hard things. But there's no way around feeling uncomfortableness. There's no way around experiencing pain in this life.

Mark Odland:

Mhmm. But again, as we've said in previous podcasts, we can pick our pain. We can choose the challenges we wanna face. And and one day at a time, we can we can make progress. We can do it.

Mark Odland:

And a final thought is just, you know, for our guys listening out there. I know we we have a lot of guys who their faith is pretty important to them. And and just to think about the way that, God's promises can work into that too. Right? Like, encouraging, comforting verses, like, you know, God saying, know the know the plans I have for you, you know, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future, that that's a that's a good thing.

Mark Odland:

That's that's a that's a future that looks looks bright and, and has possibilities. Right? And so all that being said, before we close-up, Zach, do you have any parting words for us? Or alright. Well, if you guys have hung on this long, if you could like, subscribe, throw a comment down below.

Mark Odland:

Just let us know what you thought of the podcast. Let us know your scariest, experience in life, how you got through it. Was it skydiving? Was it jujitsu? Was it something something other other crazy story?

Mark Odland:

How did you manage your anxiety? What other tips can you give to the the guys who are listening? And as always, if any of you guys want a little extra support, that's what Zach and I are here for. We do provide a brief consultation to see if you're a good fit to work with us. So if you're curious, check out escapethecagenow.com, and, we'd be happy to chat.

Mark Odland:

But, Zach, thank you so much for helping our crowd today. All the fellow lions out there learn a little bit more about anxiety and how we can handle it.

Zack Carter:

Love it. All right. Well, it's great talking with you, Mark. It was great talking to everybody. We'll see y'all soon.

Mark Odland:

All right. Take care, everybody.