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Beyond the Startup features Atlanta-area business owners and leaders sharing their entrepreneurial journeys. We explore how businesses get started, the challenges of growth, and the lessons learned along the way.
Jennifer and I, uh, started MIS
there, there was really three of us.
There was me, there was Jennifer,
and there was MasterCard.
My role in the business has changed.
I'm no longer the product, but instead
it's now incumbent upon me to be able
to provide vision for where we're
going, be able to hire competent
people and be able to invest and
grow those people so that they can
take on active parts of the business.
And I think that, for a lot of
people, they get really stuck there.
Alright, welcome to Beyond the Startup,
the podcast where we learn from Atlanta
base business owners and leaders about
how they've gotten past that initial
startup stage and how they've built
businesses that last, whether that be
10, 20 or even some cases 30 years.
Now, today I am speaking with
Lliam Holmes, the owner and
founder of MIS Solutions.
My name is Scott Pressimone and I am
actually the temporary host of this,
because in the future, Lliam, you'll
be sitting in my seat interviewing
other business leaders in Atlanta.
It'll be very exciting.
Yes.
So I'm super excited to have you today,
and in fact, you make the best first
guest for our podcast here because you
have been in business for so long, and I
think you have a lot of wisdom to share.
So in this first pilot episode, we're
gonna be talking with Lliam and learn
a little bit more about the wisdom
and the things that he's learned
after running a business for so long.
And, uh, without further
ado, let's jump into it.
Lliam.
Thanks Scott.
Absolutely.
So, um, what I'd like you to do, if
you could, Lliam, is just introduce
yourself, uh, and explain a little bit
more about what MIS solutions does.
So as you said, my name is Lliam Holmes.
I'm the CEO for, uh, MIS Solutions.
We are an Atlanta technology company.
We help small to medium sized
businesses, um, with their, IT we
help, you know, with all the normal
things, uh, like it and help desk and
purchasing and those kinds of things.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Well, I want to get back to your
founding because as I understand, you
were founded in 1995, is that right?
That's right.
Yeah.
So that's a lot of years there, Lliam.
Um, I'd like you to take me back and
sort of paint the picture for me of
what life was like back in 1995 when
you founded the business, why you just
started, started the business, you
know, what was your main motivation, and
just kind of paint that picture for me.
Yeah.
You know.
I originally started my career, uh,
working for a solutions provider that
really sold a lot of hardware, and we did
some large projects, but we really did
that for Fortune 100 companies, right?
And so for us, you know, these projects
were typically, you know, thousands of
computers and they were all for, you
know, very large, you know, companies.
And, you know, if you kind
of think about what the world
looked like back then, right?
There was no internet, right?
And so, you know, Google hadn't,
uh, uh, been developed yet.
Didn't exist, right?
And so, you know, the role that
we filled was really for these
large companies helping them
with these really big projects.
And as you can imagine, small
companies, were still also
trying to figure out, you know.
How do they get computers
into their companies?
How do they start, how
do they get started?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And at the time there, there really
wasn't a lot of people in the industry
mm-hmm.
That could help these small companies.
And so, you know, for the most part,
these small companies were on their own.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so, uh, at the time I
was a manager for Help desk.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I reported directly to, uh, the
CEO, the owner of, of that company.
And we would oftentimes get calls
from small companies saying,
Hey, we need, we need help.
You know, would you guys help us?
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, I would go to my boss
and I would say to him, Hey, you know,
we have all these, these companies that
are calling us that, that need help.
Um, can we help them?
Yeah.
Uh, and, and he would always say to
me, you know, Lliam, we're really
focused on Fortune one hundreds.
You know, that's our business.
That's our bread and butter.
Um, you know, we, we.
We really are focusing on people who
wanna buy several thousand computers,
not a computer or five computers.
And so we were turning these people
down and turning these people down.
And, uh, my mentor at the time,
his, his name was Pete, the,
the owner of this company.
And Pete said to me the one day,
he said, you know, Lliam, you seem
like you really enjoy the, that
small to medium sized business.
Why don't you open up a business
and why don't, why don't you
help serve that community?
Because you're never g gonna
be a competitor for what we do.
Hmm.
And, you know, my first initial
thought to Pete was, that's great,
Pete, but I, I don't have any money.
You know, uh, we've, I've
never run a business.
I've never opened a business.
I wouldn't even necessarily
know where to start.
Mm.
And you know, Pete just said to
me, he said, you know, you're,
you're a really resourceful guy.
I have every confidence.
You'll just figure it out.
Yeah.
Uh, and, and so with his blessing,
uh, I started doing some side work
and, and, and helping these companies
out that, you know, my primary
employer just wasn't interested in.
And really, I think that was the ecosystem
of, of, you know, where I got started.
That's very interesting.
So you were really bootstrapping
this business, right?
Oh, absolutely.
You know, I, I say to
people all the time, right?
When Jennifer and I, uh,
started MIS there, there was
really three of us, right?
There was, it was a little
three way partnership.
There was, there was me, there was
Jennifer, and there was MasterCard, right?
Because we, we didn't have any money.
And so we were literally, you know,
trying to figure out how could we afford
to service customers and, you know, a
and buy computers and, and help install.
And, you know, a as we, you know,
were in this ecosystem of, of
companies really starting to put
computers in their businesses.
I'm imagining the computers of
those days were much larger as well.
Right.
You know, they were, they were much larger
and, and they were a lot more expensive.
Mm.
Right.
So, you know, back in those days,
um, people were spending 15, $1,800,
maybe even $2,000 on a computer.
Right.
And, and yes.
To your point, these, these, um,
these were not only expensive, but
they were big and they were bulky.
Right.
When you were explaining
it was Pete, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, when you were explaining him, I,
uh, introducing him, I was imagining
maybe he did give you a check,
maybe he did give you some funding,
but instead it sounds like he just
encouraged you to make it work.
And I'm kind of curious, if you were
to look back then, are you glad that he
didn't give you that initial investment
and instead he just encouraged you
to make your own way with MasterCard?
Or would you have done it any differently?
Pete never gave you enough specifics.
Hmm.
To actually do anything actionable.
He only gave you an idea and then
said, I have enough confidence
that you can figure out what to do.
Right.
And so, you know, uh, you could
hint around the fact all you wanted
with Pete, like, Hey, I don't
have any money, or, Hey, I need a
raise, or like, whatever it was.
And, and his, his response was, was
always, you know, very similar to,
uh, you know, what he said with,
with, when I was starting MIS he
was like, you know, there's, there's
a lot of opportunity around here.
You know, we're always
looking for great people.
There's, you know, but, but it's,
it's up to you to go and get
that and make something of it.
At the time when we were, you know,
starting MIS we were, you know, a
customer would, would, would order,
you know, two computers from us
and we were looking at, you know,
three and four or $5,000 sometimes.
Uh, and bear in mind, this is 1995 and so.
$5,000 was a lot of money to us.
Yeah.
We didn't have $5,000.
Right.
And so know we were, we were putting this,
these purchases on credit card and then
hoping the customer would pay their bill.
Right.
Those servers.
Yeah.
You know, and so we were certainly
not a company that, that had a
lot of resources to begin with.
And you know, Pete would check
in with me every once in a
while and, Hey, how's it going?
You know, or are you guys, you
know, are you guys making progress?
And, you know, he would sort of give me
these little pearls of wisdom, but it was
never really anything super actionable.
And I think it was deliberate, right?
It was really, it was really kind
of like that warm guiding hand, that
parental figure that would come and
say to you, you know, Hey, I don't
know how you're gonna do it, but I know
you're smart enough to figure this out.
Uh, if you have any questions,
you know, come ask me.
Pete was always sure not to
answer any of those questions.
He would just give you another parable
or a story or you know, something
that, you know, in his life, uh,
that, that you could take away.
But, but it really was up to you to figure
out how to make something out of that.
Uh, it really was, was a great mentor.
When you're describing him, I see
some hints of maybe where some of
the attributes you have came from
because, uh, you sometimes maybe
follow a similar path with, with
people around here that I see so,
well now you know where it comes from.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well, you explained a little bit about
the segment that you're serving, right?
So I understand that you were
working for a company that wasn't
looking for the smaller businesses.
You're talking to these individuals
and saying, you know what, there's
a market opportunity here, but I'm
curious if there was anything else that
you saw or thought of that was gonna
give you a unique value proposition or
give you an advantage in that market?
Did you just see it and say, these people
wanna get served, I can serve them?
Or what advantages do you think that
you had against other businesses
that might have also been trying
to serve that smaller market?
Yeah, you know, if I was really honest,
I would say that when we started the
company, and I may not, I may not have
said that at the time or said this at the
time, but, but if I really think back.
We were starting a company, we, we
thought that we could add value to, to
companies who were having trouble finding
reliable support or qualified support.
Um, I didn't come from, you
know, a family of entrepreneurs.
We didn't know what we were doing.
You know, we didn't know
a lot about finance.
We didn't know a lot about taxes.
We didn't know a lot about purchasing.
I was an IT guy who, who knew a lot
about software development, who knew
a lot about hardware and IT stuff.
But really I was, I was the technician.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And although I had a director role
at, at the company I worked for, I
can tell you that that experience
didn't really translate very well to
MIS because, you know, I was running,
you know, 10 and $20 million projects.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
It.
Whereas, you know, when I was starting
MIS, we were talking about people
who wanted to buy two computers.
Right?
It was right.
It was night and day.
Right.
And so, you know, I, I guess to
answer your question more succinctly,
Scott, if I was honest, I would say
to you, we started a business because
we saw an opportunity, but we hadn't
yet really identified who we were.
Mm-hmm.
What our unique value was going to be
in that marketing place, where we were
gonna start, how we were gonna get there,
and we were really doing everything
for anyone who would write us a check.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And so we, we were probably
everything except the word
strategic when we first started.
It's interesting because I think people
can go sometimes to the other end of
that spectrum, especially if they are
formally educated in the area of business.
They start to think about the
business plan, they start to think
about the UVP and you know, they're
thinking about all these things
initially and maybe overthinking them.
But it sounds like you basically said
there are people here that want stuff,
they're willing to pay me to do it.
I guess I'll do it.
And then you're, I assume, adapting
over, over time a little bit after that.
Yeah, it was a very practical approach.
Right.
And I'll say, you know, there, there came
a point, um, fairly early on where we
realized that we could, we could do all
of these things, and we realized pretty
clearly that just because we could do
them doesn't mean we should do them.
Right.
Right.
So for example, our first version of our
ticketing system, we wrote that ourselves.
And at some point in using that.
We had a decision to make, were we
going to be a software company or
were we going to be a support company?
Hmm.
Right.
And as much as it pained us,
because you know, these, these
applications are, are expensive.
They're expensive today.
Right.
Hundreds of, hundreds of hours that
we had put into building that we, we
really had to reconcile with ourselves
that we were not gonna be a software
development company at, at least not yet.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And, and that we were gonna shelf that and
we were gonna buy someone else's solution
so that we could really focus our efforts
on being the best at what we actually did.
We started thinking about all
the different things, creating
websites for people and so that,
that, that we knew how to do.
Right.
But then.
We knew wasn't going to be part of
our, our core service offerings.
And we started chopping those off and
just saying no to those opportunities.
And at the time, you know, that felt
really painful because, you know,
we were trying to build a business.
We, we, uh, we were trying
to get revenue in the door.
Right.
And it's, it's really hard, I think
when you're, you know, trying to get
revenue in the door to, to start saying
no to things that you can actually do.
Right,
right.
Uh, in, in really building out
you know, who you wanna be.
And, and those are prob that's
probably one of the early lessons
that, that we learned, you know, as,
as we were creating this company.
It's interesting 'cause I can't help
but draw that parallel between what
started the business is when you
mentioned Pete and the way that their
business was going was, no, no, no.
We're gonna focus on the, the Fortune
100 and were not gonna service these.
Now they could have, it sounds like
service those, but it sounds like
they had focus and it sounds like
you also defined your own focus.
I think you're exactly right.
And I think that we learned our
own lessons similar to, similar to
what Pete was telling us, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, yes, I, I think
you're actually very right.
You did already speak on that challenge,
is that maybe at first you had to
learn that lesson yourself, oh, we're
going in too many different directions.
Let's focus.
That's one challenge.
Are there any other challenges that
you faced through the years that are
really memorable that you can share with
others?
Hmm.
Gosh, we've had so many challenges
and, you know, I think that that
has been the attraction to it.
Hmm.
And for some people also the
distraction for it, right?
Is that, you know, we're in
a business that is constantly
evolving, constantly changing, uh,
and I don't mean minor changes.
I mean, complete, rip everything
up, throw it away, start all
over again, changes, right?
Yes.
You think, you think about some of
the, some of the really big milestones
that have happened since 1995, right?
The home computer.
Has really made its way, you know, into
the office, cell phones, smart phones,
they didn't exist when we first started.
Right.
Networks really, for the most
part were in their baby infancy.
Right.
Didn't really exist.
People had computers in their
office, but they weren't networked.
Everybody had their own computer.
Right.
And they were saving things to floppy
disks and walking them down the hall.
Right.
We have one customer that,
uh, shared a story with me.
He's a friend of mine.
They started their business, you know,
uh, a little bit earlier than us, but,
you know, they had one computer that they
just had on a little cart with wheels, and
they would push it around the office based
on who needed to use the computer, right?
I mean, that was the ecosystem.
That's that, that was the world, right?
But, you know, you kind of think about,
you know, we've invented the internet,
we've, we've created smartphones, we've,
you know, we've developed now, you
know, cloud computing, and now we're,
you know, we're in this next forefront
of AI and whatever that means, right?
But these are all huge, you know,
developments that are really,
you know, throw the business
away, start all over again.
Who are we, you know, who we, who are
we going to be in the new ecosystem?
Mm.
Because everything that you've
known that got you here, won't
get you to the next spot, right?
Mm.
Think about security and compliance
and all of the rules and regulations
that go along that didn't exist.
10 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
Really at, at the same
level that it does today.
Right.
And so, you know, I, I think that
the attraction for a lot of people
is, is the fact that the business
changes so significantly and it's
this constant learning curve.
And, and for some people, um,
what you also see is, that's the
thing that keeps them out, right?
They, they come into it,
they're like, Hey, it's a
really great, you know, career.
It, it pays a lot of money and, you know,
and I'm gonna get into it because of that.
What they never realize is that you're
gonna be a lifelong student and you're
constantly gonna be, you know, running
uphill trying to figure out what's
next and what your role is in that.
Right?
And so, you know, it's
different in that way.
And I, and for us, that's always been, you
know, an attractive part of the business.
Absolutely.
I, I guess I hadn't thought of it
this way, but when you described
technology as like, by definition
it's always changing, right?
It is.
So you always have to
stay on the bleeding edge.
I assume some companies don't always
want their technology to change.
'cause it's always, you know, the
moving and changing is difficult, but
at the same time, they need someone
to help them make those transitions.
'cause a lot of times
they're not optional, right?
You mention ai, that's one of those things
that you can avoid it for so long, but
realistically, it is changing the world
around us, just like the internet did.
And so I, I assume that that's something
that the MIS team is comfortable with
helping individuals, whether they
like technology or not adapt with
technology because we all have to adapt,
right?
Absolutely.
Right.
And I'll, I'll, I'll give you a
story, I'll give you a parallel
that goes with this, right?
Yes.
A number of years ago in our industry
with small businesses, most small
businesses considered backups to
be a nice to have and optional.
And people really struggled actually for
a really long time to figure out how they
were gonna back up all of their data.
And companies really had this, Hey, you
know, it's, it's, our computer system's
important, but we could live without it.
It's okay.
Uh, you know, backups are expensive and
you got these tapes and you know who's
gonna, who's gonna change the tapes out?
And you would be surprised
how many companies didn't have
really any form of backup at all.
Hmm.
Right.
You fast forward to today and, and, and
you put that into today's context, I think
even the smallest business would say,
not having backups is unconscionable.
Like, we don't even see a
world where that doesn't exist.
Right.
And yet it was only, you know, gosh,
probably 15, 20, 25 years ago that, that
people really thought backups were, were.
Optional that, that this
was a nice to have thing.
And so you can really see how
people's mindsets change with
technology as technology matures.
Right.
And, and to your, to your comment a
minute ago, you think about ai, you
think about cloud, which is kind of
our, our, our previous, you know,
iteration where, you know, when cloud
first came on the scene, people were
like, Hey, there's this new thing.
It's cloud, uh, you know,
we dunno what it is.
We don't really think
it adds any value to us.
We're, we're not gonna go down that road.
Uh, we're, I can't imagine what else
we would need beyond what we have.
And so we're good, right?
You move a couple, a couple years
down the road and now everybody's
like, we're a cloud first company.
We're, we're, we're
buying SaaS applications.
You've got Office 365, right?
How many people have
exchange servers today?
Nobody has an exchange
server today, right?
Everybody's using Gmail
or, or Office 365, right?
And so that pendulum has completely swung.
Right.
The next crest is ai.
Right.
And, and you know what's interesting
is you see people's perception about
new technology changing as well.
It's almost like, you know, they've
seen enough waves through the years
with maybe they were a, a late adopter.
And as they've gone through the years
that they're, as they're running their
businesses, they're recognizing that,
that there's a lot of value in being
maybe not a, a, an early adopter.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
But, but certainly being closer
to early than, than late, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, and AI, I think is driving that.
You, you, we have a, we're having a lot
of conversations with our customers about,
you know, is AI right for their business?
How would they use it?
How do they drive value for that?
And at the same time, right,
although we're an IT company, um.
Nobody comes to MIS and they're like,
Hey, there's this new technology,
ai, let me train all your people.
Right,
right, right.
And so, you know, we're learning at
the same time that we're trying to
bring customers along and, and, and,
and, and create this journey together.
And I think that for a large
part, that's it, right?
You're, you're, you're, you're, you're
learning as you go and you're, you're
really trying to bring customers forward
with you and, and helping them see and
understand the world around them and, and
how it affects their marketplace, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, that's, I think that that's the
ecosystem in the mindset that, that,
that, you know, small businesses,
medium businesses, large businesses are
really recognizing, uh, and embracing,
right?
Right.
I mean, I can see a lot of businesses.
Kind of feeling, probably like they're,
they're feeling around in the dark
because there's so many unknowns.
But as you're describing all this,
one thing I'm thinking about Lliam
is that none of us know exactly
the way things are gonna go, but
we can't not play the game at all.
Right.
You mentioned floppy discs.
I remember having floppy discs, right?
Floppy disc happened.
You had to learn how to use those.
You had to learn how to use CDs.
Is it gonna be Blu-rays?
All these technologies are changing and
you still have to feel around and get
used to them until you know, you, you
can't just step back and say, let's just
wait until the dust settles, because
the dust never seemingly settles.
Right?
Yeah.
But you have to kind of, I guess, learn
a little bit, not maybe over invests,
not strike a balance as a business, which
is probably a really hard thing to do.
Right.
It is a hard thing to do.
And I think that, you know, that's
probably been one of our strategic
advantages is the fact that.
You know, we seek out new technologies.
We think about our customers, we think
about, you know, the world at large.
We think about, you know,
different industries and we, we
typically start investing early.
Hmm.
That's probably something
I think we've done right?
Right.
Is, you know, think about, um, cloud.
Right.
A lot of our competitors, a lot of our
friends that own IT companies, uh, really
were like, Hey, this is a lot of money.
Hey, we don't know if our
customers are gonna wanna buy it.
We're not sure really yet.
There's no use cases, there's
no return on investment.
Like, we're not sure.
Mm-hmm.
And so we're gonna hang back until
we see other people really create
a, a, a, a value proposition
or a a, a path to success.
Mm-hmm.
We're gonna let those
guys do all the hard work.
And then we're gonna jump in
at the last minute and be like,
yeah, hey, this is what we do.
Right,
right, right, right.
Whereas I think, you know, our approach
has been let's be early adopters.
Even if we're not selling to our clients,
we recognize that gaining that experience
and becoming experts in, you know, how
you, how you do it a certain way, and how
you don't do it some of these other ways.
Mm-hmm.
So that as those, as those technologies
become mainstream, you actually have
the battle scars You, you, you have the
understanding of how we got to the place.
We got to.
Yeah.
Right.
And and you think about, for
example, you know, cloud.
Yeah.
Right.
We were one of the first
early adopters for cloud.
We spent a long time really trying to
make a decision around, you know, should
we use an Amazon or an AWS or a Rackspace
or something like that, or were we
willing to write a seven figure check
mm-hmm.
To start building our own,
right.
Right.
And, you know, that was obviously not
an easy decision to make, but we had the
courage and the foresight to, to, to write
that check, to develop our own cloud.
And if you think about the, the,
the 15 years that followed that
decision, it's been a huge competitive
advantage for us because, you know,
we can offer things in our cloud that
other people don't have access to.
Right.
Because they're using, you know, Azure
or AWS or something like that, right?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, if you fast forward a
little bit and you think about.
Cybersecurity.
You know, we started getting our
certifications, you know, 10 and 11
and 12 years ago before cybersecurity
was as much of a mainstay or a staple.
Then, you know, as it is today
where, you know, everybody's worried
about, you know, buying cyber
insurance and doing vulnerability
and assessments, and we've been doing
this for, for a decade plus, right?
We, we built that experience and we got
those, we got those certifications early.
If you think about where
we are now with ai, right?
This is still new, right?
We're starting to hold community events.
Yes.
We're starting to invite,
you know, people who.
Not only are not customers, but
maybe we'll never be customers.
Right?
Right.
And we're starting to, to look at our
community and we're starting to say to
that community, join us, learn with us.
We don't have anything to sell
other than, you know, we can share
our experience and what we think
works and what we think doesn't.
And, and, and I think this is, you know,
this sort of invest first and commoditize
later, uh, has really been probably one
of the significant keys to our success.
What a great lesson to share.
I, I couldn't help but think when you're
mentioning the term battle scars, I, I
think that that really resonates with me.
And it's because if we think about,
let's say, reading a book, right?
You can read the Cliff's notes
of a book and you can say, I
learned the lesson from the book.
But sometimes it's actually by flipping
through the pages and actually taking
that time that you might learn more
than you learned from the Cliffs Notes.
And the fact that you've learned
and had some battle scars, it's
very different than someone
learning from your battle scars.
You know, you touching the
stove is different than someone
else touching the stove.
Right?
And so I'm curious if you can share
any of those battle scars with us.
Is there a mistake that you've feel
you've made at some point through this
long journey that, that, uh, you think
has either helped you later on or, you
know, I don't know that was peaceful for
you that you can at least share with us?
'cause
Sure.
You know, there's a lot of them, right?
Honestly, uh, some of them really simple.
I can remember in, in the very
beginning when we started MIS, um.
Again, you know, Jennifer
and I are not finance people.
Mm-hmm.
We, we didn't come from, you know,
a family that were entrepreneurs
or, or had had businesses.
Uh, we were first
generation business owners.
Right.
Jennifer's parents.
Her dad was a mechanic and,
and her mom was a secretary.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so, you know, we didn't,
we didn't have a network of
people who could help us.
And so the only thing we could
do was really walk around and
feel this out for ourselves.
Right.
And, and so, you know, when you
think about that, something as
simple as how do you file your taxes?
How do you save money so that when
the tax man comes on April 15th, you,
you've saved money to pay your taxes.
Hmm.
Right.
That was a huge mistake that we
made, you know, probably our,
our second year in business.
Um.
We, you know, just like everybody,
you know, you have to do taxes.
Yeah.
We didn't know how to do them.
So we hired a CPA to, to help us do them.
And I can remember at the, at the end
of it, um, she said to us, right, so
I've gone, I've gone through everything.
It looks like you owe $60,000.
Wow.
And we were like, we, we
don't have anywhere close to
$60,000 to pay our taxes with.
And then you've gotta go down this road
of like, okay, so what options do we have?
Is there a payment plan?
Like, you know, does Lliam go to jail?
Like, like, I don't know,
like, what happened?
And he said, pay your taxes.
Right?
And so, you know, we, we really
had to learn that lesson.
And, and you know, you always hear this
thought about, you know, there's two,
there's two kinds of companies, right?
People who know how to do whatever
it is that you're selling.
Maybe you're an engineer, maybe you're,
you know, you're on the technical,
you're on the delivery side of things.
Right.
And certainly for MIS, you
know, that's been the case.
And we're a very technical company.
Right.
Because I, I founded the company.
Yes.
And the other kind of company is
people who are founded by salespeople.
Right.
And it's really interesting in
the fact that, you know, companies
that are founded by product,
people always struggle with sales.
Mm-hmm.
And people who are founded by salespeople
are always struggling with operations.
Yes.
And I can tell you that, that
certainly has mirrored our journey.
Right.
I think that we're very
good at doing what we do.
I think that we've really had to learn a
lot about other parts that we didn't know.
Finance, sales, marketing.
Podcasting, apparently.
Yeah.
Right?
And, and so, you know, there's
all of these different things and
all these different skills that
you really never think about that
really are what create the company.
It's not just can you do the thing
that you're selling or doing?
Uh, you, you, you have to be able to
do all of these other things as well.
And, you know, um, probably a
couple of really succinct examples.
Taxes is certainly one of them.
We didn't, we didn't
understand that hiring, right?
How to, how to really identify
the right team members.
Um, and maybe even really
something even simpler than that.
Um, when do you hire, right?
When do you hire your next person?
When do you need that next person?
Um, I, I know that we struggled
that with that in the beginning.
Um, you know, how do you know when you're
ready to, to add a team member, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think we messed
that up a couple of times.
Um.
I think that, you know, other things
that, that, that, that got us was
policies and procedures and standards.
Right.
Um, I can remember, um, when MIS
was smaller, you know, we, we, we
were all out of my home, right?
Oh.
And you know, our, our people used to
come in, and when I say people, we, we
probably had two or three of them Right.
But they would come in and we'd all
sit and have breakfast in the morning
around, around the breakfast table.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And everything that we needed
to know, we could just ask.
Right.
Right.
Uh, TJ was one of our
employees at the time.
He'd be like, Hey, TJ, I'm
working with so-and-so customer,
uh, what's their password for X?
And he'd just be like, hold on,
I look it up on my notebook.
And he'd tell you.
Right?
Yes.
And, you know, there was only six of us,
and between the six of us, we, we all
knew everything that we needed to know.
Mm.
As we grew.
What became really apparent was we needed
systems, we needed processes, we needed
policies, we needed procedures, we needed
to mature as a business because it got
to the point where it was impossible for
anybody to know or remember anything.
And it was the thing
that was slowing us down.
And so we, we literally had to pause
the business and say, Hey guys, we've
reached a point where what got us here
is not gonna get us to where we wanna go.
And even if that means we
need to slow down for a year
And make a commitment to writing things
down and creating policies and processes.
Right.
And, you know, that was a significant,
uh, undertaking that, that we had to do.
But, you know, again, I think you learn
these lessons almost out of necessity.
Right.
Uh, be because you, you recognize
at some point that you've
gone as far as you can go.
Unless you change something.
It's really interesting.
I'm sure that's a very hard thing to do.
You had mentioned a challenge before
where it was being able to turn down a
check where someone was willing to pay
you, but it was outside of that scope.
I assume it had to be very difficult
to, it sounds like, have the situation
where you have people that are willing
to pay you and you can expand or you
can spend more in sales and marketing.
But it sounds like you had to pause that
a little bit and say, let's actually
work on the foundation, um, and forego
some of the short term gains, uh,
that it sounds benefited you later.
Right?
Yeah.
It's been a hard thing to do.
It is a hard thing to do.
Right?
And you know, you think about it, right?
When you're small, you can solve
every problem by simply working
harder and putting in more hours.
Right?
But at some point when you grow
a little bit, you can't work hard
enough and there's only 24 hours in
a day, and so you can't put in enough
hours to actually solve the problem.
Right.
As you grow.
Um, you have another dynamic that that
really comes into play too, and that is,
you know, when it was me doing the work
Right?
If I was working 50, 60, 70,
80, sometimes a hundred hours a
week, my payroll never went up.
I just put in more time.
Right?
Right.
But when you start to get employees
and you're paying them to do the work,
right, there's a, there's a, there's
a really big mind shift that has to
happen there because, you know, now if
they're working 60, 70, 80 hours a week,
all of a sudden, you know, you, you may
have added 25, 30, 40% to your payroll.
Right.
And, and, and all of a
sudden these problems, right.
That consume a lot of time and effort
are actually consuming a lot of money.
Right,
right.
And so, you know, it really forces you
to start thinking about, Hey guys, we
really need some policies and processes
and procedures and, you know, that
extends into, you know, we need, we
need to know how to QA that work.
We need to know how to, how to quote
that workout more accurately, right?
Um, and it drives forward all of
these other things, but it, it
really starts out of this necessity
of, Hey guys, if we don't get this
right, we're gonna lose money.
Right?
Right, right.
You might've been willing to put in
those extra hours and effectively work
for free, but when you have employees,
they don't tend to want to work for free,
tend to wanna do that.
Right.
It's a different game.
Um, now that actually brings me to a
question about ownership of the business.
And when you're going
through that stage of.
Growing up to your own capabilities
versus growing beyond your capabilities.
And I think a lot of owners
really struggle with that.
When they make those, when they are no
longer a startup, maybe they're a lot
more mature, and now they have to get
to that stage where everything is not
dependent on them, and everything is not
dependent on their time, their skills.
I think that's a hard thing to do.
And I'm curious what your experience,
Lliam, has been like building
the business beyond yourself.
Hmm.
Do you have any tips for, oh,
actually, do you have any lessons
learned that you can share?
Or do you have any tips for others
that are maybe struggling at that
stage where they're realizing that
stuff doesn't get done if they're
not in the office, or things don't
get built if it's not something
that they're capable of building?
Any thoughts on that?
Yeah.
You know, it's a really interesting
dynamic because when you're small,
the way that you are successful
is by touching everything, right?
You QA Everything you are
involved with every customer.
You are the ultimate decision maker for
every decision that has to be made, right?
Nothing gets done without you.
Right?
And that's what makes you successful
is because you're building this
company that meets your own
quality, your own standards.
You, you know, it is a direct
reflection of not only you as a
company, but you as a person, right?
It, it, it's your own reputation.
It's your name.
And when you do that
well, you grow, right?
But at some point what
happens is you're human.
There's only 24 hours in the day.
There's only so many things you can do.
And you start to get faced
with this conundrum of, um.
I can't make every decision, but how
do I know which decisions I should make
and which decisions I should delegate?
Right.
And I, I can tell you that as
you're making that mind shift, as
you're making that change, you're,
you're not always gonna get it.
Right.
I don't know what's gonna write today.
Right.
It, it's, it's a bit of a, a gut feel.
Right?
And, and, you know, there's these
analogies, you know, a around, you know,
is this a, a trunk level decision, right?
Is this, is this, is this the
thing that's gonna make the
business or break the business?
Right.
Or is this a leaf level decision
where it's really just a small,
minor decision that, that that's,
that someone else could make.
And whether they get it right or
wrong, the business will survive.
And then it's, I, I think really
being strategic and deliberate
about saying, you know.
My role in the business has changed.
I'm no longer the product, but instead
it's now incumbent upon me to be able to,
um, provide vision for where we're going.
Yeah.
And be able to hire competent people
and be able to invest and grow
those people so that they can take
on active parts of the business.
Right.
And so your mindset really has to change
in terms of your position in the company.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that, you know, for a lot
of people, they get really stuck there.
Um, you know, I certainly see
a lot of businesses, um, Scott,
I know you do too, where.
The company is, is, is, is so
solely focused on the founder.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
The founder is the brand of that business.
They are the face of that business.
They are the beginning and
the end to that business.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And what they don't realize
is that they're also the
bottleneck to that business.
They are the cap to that business.
Mm-hmm.
They are captured by that business.
Right, right.
And, and at some point, some
people I, I think, have a really
difficult time letting go.
Mm-hmm.
And moving beyond that and other
people make that transition and
really say, Hey, you know, if we're
gonna be the company that, that I
wanna be, if I'm gonna continue to
attract, you know, great talent,
I'm gonna have to start letting go.
I'm gonna have to start trusting
other people to make decisions and.
I may even have to be okay with
the fact that their decisions
are not always going to be Right.
Right.
And it may cost me money.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And that's, that's a very difficult
place to be because in some places it's
a little bit like watching a train wreck
or, or, or, or watching, you know, your,
your son or daughter when they, they've
just learned to sit up learning to walk
and like, you know, they're gonna fall.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
But you know, that, that falling is
part of the process of learning to walk.
Right.
Right.
And so, you know, that, that this is
sort of the rite of passage and, and, and
it's, it's, it's very difficult to watch,
but it's the only way through the fire.
Yeah.
Learning to walk.
I, I know that your children have gone
through that stage of learning to drive.
I'm sure that was a tough one.
They have, right?
They're gonna be going off and going to
the grocery store and you have no control
over what happens during that drive.
Right?
That's gotta be really hard.
Um, I love your analogy too, of the tree.
'cause I'm imagining you
described maybe the visionary
leader could be the trunk, right?
But then you have the branches
and then you have the leaves.
Right?
Now tell me if this makes sense to you,
Lliam, but I haven't been in business
nearly as long as you have, but I'm
imagining that if you have to be the
trunk, the branches and leaves for so
many years, and you have the battle
scars doing that all yourself, I assume
it's very hard to take that step back
because again, those battle scars, I,
I feel like they can kind of form you.
You can kind of get that very thick
skin about I have to do A, B, and C.
And then once you're trying to grow
beyond yourself, you have to sort
of unlearn some things, don't you?
You, you do.
Um, and, and I think all of us really,
no matter what business you're in.
You, you are going to have to adopt
that mindset of saying, you know, my
job is to continually teach people
what I do, to grow people, to take on
parts of the business that I do today.
And, and, and to put your ego aside and
to really allow people in to help you.
And I think part of that, putting your
ego aside is we're all human, right?
In this journey, you are going to come up
with things that you're just not good at.
Hmm.
You're not talented at, there are
other people that are better at
doing that thing that, that you are.
And again, you know,
we're all human, right?
There's parts in every business
that you're not gonna want to do.
You'll be like, I just,
I'm not good at it.
I don't like doing it.
Uh, it, it, it's hard.
Uh, I, I do a mediocre job at best.
Surely there's got to be someone out
there who loves doing this thing.
Yeah.
Right.
And that maybe was another lesson that,
that, that we learned along the way, which
was for everything that we didn't like
to do or that I wasn't good at doing.
There is somebody out there who
just lives to do that thing.
They just love it.
They suck it up.
Right.
And you're like, I don't know
why you like that power to you.
You're great at it.
I stink at it.
I admire your ability to
be great at that thing.
Right?
And, and I, I think that that's
part of that growth tr trajectory.
Part of that learning is
really identifying from a
self-reflection, you know, what
are the things I'm really good at?
What are the things I'm not good at?
You know, and some of those
things you really wanna think
about that some of these things
that you, that you come up with.
They can be hard.
Right.
How many companies do you see where
the founder of the company is?
The CEO, and at some point in their
journey, they recognize that the company
has outgrown their ability to be the CEO.
Ah.
How hard is that now?
To be able to say it?
For the health of my baby, for
the health of my company, I
can no longer be the caretaker.
Right.
I, I haven't gotten to that point yet.
But, but, but you certainly see companies
around us that are, are, are saying, Hey,
you know, you know, in order for us to
continue to fulfill the mission that,
that, that we're on, I'm no longer enough.
Right.
We need, we need to now go
and hire a professional CEO.
Right.
And you have to look yourself in
the mirror and say, I'm not the one.
Right, right.
I, I can't help but think of another
analogy there, Lliam, is if you've
been driving for so long, we've we're
talking before about aging parents.
Yeah.
And when you stop being the driver Right.
And you have to say, actually someone
else 'cause is gonna drive me.
I'm gonna take an Uber this time.
That's gotta be a hard transition.
'cause you've learned how to drive and
you've, you know, been an accident.
You've been through all these things
yourself, man, has that gotta be hard
to hand the keys off to someone else.
Yeah.
Right.
Or, or, or, and even worse, to be able to
look yourself in the mirror and be able
to say, I, I can no longer be independent.
Ah, yeah.
I, I can no longer do this by myself.
I need help.
I have to depend on someone else.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And actually, that's a great
parallel because business
can be exactly the same way.
Right.
You grew this business, you were
the technician, you were the, the
beginning and the end of it all.
Slowly you're, you're developing
and handing off pieces.
But ultimately one day,
if you keep down this.
You're gonna have to fire yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
You're gonna be the only one left.
Think of Steve Jobs.
That's probably a really
great example, right?
Yeah.
Steve was an amazing technologist.
He had great vision.
He was, he was the product,
but at some point he could no
longer be the CEO of Apple.
Right?
Right.
The business had simply outgrown him and
his, his talent to, to hold that role.
Right.
Right.
One other thing I wanna point out, and
this is maybe for another episode in
the future or something we discussed
elsewhere, but when you were mentioning
your strengths and your weaknesses and
identifying the things that you care
about and the things that are draining
for you, I assume that the entrepreneurial
operating system for EOS is something
that probably helped you define what
you're good at, what you're not good
at, what you should focus on, all these
other, and you mentioned processes and
tools, so I know that MIS runs off EOS.
And I assume some of your success,
would you attribute to EOS as well?
Absolutely.
You know, to me, EOS and is really
simple form is as you're growing, as
you're trying to mature as, not only
are you on your journey as as an owner,
but you know every other person in
your company is on their own journey.
Mm-hmm.
They are developing their own careers.
They are trying to figure out.
How can they take advantage of
opportunities at MIS, you know,
as the company changes and grows
mm-hmm.
This, this constant thing right?
By almost natural definition
creates a little chaos.
Right.
And what EOS really is, is a
way to recognize, to order, to
facilitate, to quantify right.
And to be more strategic
around managing that chaos.
Right?
And, and, and EOS has been a great
tool and certainly has, you know,
from that perspective, you know,
been one of the things that we've
used, uh, to be able to create a
order in an unordered, um, business.
I
like the way you define that as, uh,
managing the chaos, because as you just
said, technology's always changing.
Businesses are always changing.
It's gonna be chaotic, but it's
a matter of can you manage it.
Right,
right.
Now that leads me to my final question
for you, Lliam, is that I know a lot
is changing, uh, in the company in
the world, and so I'm just kind of
curious what, um, you're seeing for
the future for either the industry
or for MIS Specif specifically.
Um, what do you see the future?
Yeah.
You know, I've, I've always
thought of technology almost
like, almost like an escalator.
Like when you go to the mall
and you see the stairs Right?
And they're coming down like this, right?
There's always a new technology at the
top of the stairs, and there's always
one that's vanishing at the bottom.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And, and so, you know, as we talk
about AI and we talk about cloud and
we talk about cybersecurity, these are
the stairs that are moving towards us.
Mm-hmm.
If you really think about what, what's
disappearing behind us, um, we now live
in a world where people have grown up
with technology, kids have grown up with,
with iPhones and, and, and like, nobody
takes a typing class anymore, right?
Because as you grew up, you learn to type
because that was part of going to school.
Like that was, that was just, you
know, as foundation or fundamental
school as learning to spell right.
And so nobody takes typing
classes anymore, right?
And, and so you, as technology
moves like that, uh, and you really
kind of put that in context of MIS.
Um, I, I, I think that because we are
a technology focused company and as a
founder, I was, I'm an IT guy, right?
At, at its at, its at its core, right?
We're constantly interested
in how technology is helping
businesses become successful.
Um, I think that a change that, that
we made, gosh, a number of years
ago, was to stop thinking in terms of
bits and bytes and flashing lights.
Mm-hmm.
And to start thinking in
terms of value to clients.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Uh, as you continue to mature, as
we look into the, into the future, I
think that that same concept applies,
although the tools are different.
I think now, if we think about
AI, you know, we recognize that
as we sit here today, we're not
at the beginning of an AI journey.
We're probably somewhere in the
middle of an AI journey, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
We are already at the place
where we're seeing failures.
Right.
Right.
In fact, I think I, I read something
just a day or two ago that said
that 95% of all AI projects fail.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And so we're starting, we're starting
to see a pile of dead bodies, right?
Right.
We're starting to see people
who, who are struggling.
Right.
And so I think over the next couple of
years, you know, what we're focused on
and, and the value that I think that we're
gonna be able to bring to our customers
is that 30 years worth of business
experience and being able to say to those
customers, you know, behind the hype.
Yeah.
Here's how you make this valuable.
And, and, and I liken, I liken
AI, at least in our journey, very
similar to, to that journey of when
Cloud became, you know, popular.
Right?
Right.
When cloud first came on the scene,
everybody's like, oh, cloud does cloud
that, you know, everything has to
be cloud first, cloud, cloud, cloud.
But there were a lot of failures.
In those initial clouds, there were
a lot of companies who went bankrupt.
Mm-hmm.
In those initial rollouts.
AI feels to me a lot like that.
There's, there's companies who were
like, Hey, this is the bandwagon.
We gotta jump on it.
We don't know what we're doing.
We don't care, but
we're selling something.
Right.
And now you're starting to
see this attrition that's
happening on the back end.
Right.
But out of that will, will, will come
a real model that creates real value.
And, and I think if you ask me, you
know, where do I think our future lay,
I think our future is always in helping
our customers run better businesses.
I think our future is always in
helping bring our customers along
mm-hmm.
To, to, you know, where
our industry is going.
Mm-hmm.
And I think certainly a a, a large segment
segment that's undeniable is AI has
got to be part of that journey because
I think from a technology perspective,
that's where we are in the world.
Absolutely, and I can't help but go
back to when you founded the business.
You were telling me a little bit about
how you made some of those big investments
and you built those battle scars.
And just like the dot coms, you can
kind of see some companies are saying,
I'm gonna build something on top of
an existing platform and I'm gonna
tag .AI to the end of my domain name.
And easy come, easy go.
Right?
If you're gonna start up that
company, uh, now and say, I'm an AI
company, look, here's my AI domain.
Easy, easy go, right?
Yeah.
Something changes and they're gone.
Whereas if you're building something more
foundational, then you can actually, uh,
I guess build and adapt over time and
you're gonna be able to stand strong,
uh, when others kind of go away, right?
So
I've always said, you know,
in any business transaction, there's
really two transactions that happen.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And, and we don't often think about
this, but when you write me a check.
For absolutely anything.
You write me a check, you say, you
know, Lliam, here's a check here.
Here's 50 bucks.
Yeah.
Right.
Everybody is, is very quick to recognize,
Hey, 50 bucks, 50 bucks is good.
Mm-hmm.
But I think they're slower to recognize
that, in accepting that 50 bucks.
You also gave me a set of expectations
as to things you want for that 50 bucks.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
You didn't just gratuitously
give me 50 bucks.
Right.
And so I think that companies who
recognize that, you know, when
companies write you a check when they,
when they're giving you money for
something, that there's a transference
of expectations that comes with that.
Right.
And.
You are going to have to be valuable
to that customer for the amount
of money that they give you.
And I think as long as you can
be really focused on delivering
value with every interaction
mm-hmm.
I think what you find is that companies
are happy to write you a check at the
end of the month, you know, for your
expertise or for the value that you're
trading, you know, uh, for those dollars.
Uh, and I think that when you recognize
that, I think it becomes foundational
for, you know, what kind of business
you're, you're willing to say yes to.
What kinds of companies are
you willing to work for?
I think it also helps you identify,
you know, what kind of, you
know, people do you wanna hire?
Do they are, are their values
in alignment with your values?
Right?
But it really all starts with, are
you willing to take that check?
Mm mm
Are you, are you willing to take
those expectations for what that.
What that company, what
that client wants from you.
Mm-hmm.
It changes the way that you, that
you act and, and respond and invest.
Right, right.
Now I wanna rewind back to something
that you had said earlier, Lliam.
You had mentioned that, you know, you
might not have expected that you'd
be on a podcast today, but at the
same time, you're doing things like
events, you're building communities,
you're sharing knowledge without
necessarily expecting anything in return.
It seems to be kind of out there like
business owners kind of building together.
I think that's something that
we're really focused on here now.
And you also mentioned that it
could be a hard thing to do, right?
Not a lot of businesses have podcasts.
Get on video, do all these tough things.
I think that leads us to, what we're
really trying to do here, right, Lliam,
is that we don't just wanna do it here at
MIS, we wanna do it for other businesses
in the area, other business owners.
And that's, of course, the goal of
this podcast is to extract wisdom, just
like we've extracted from you today,
Lliam, and do it from others that are
Atlanta-based business owners or leaders.
Um, and invite them on to our podcast
here where we can learn about them.
Um, so something I'd encourage
listeners to do is if you have a story
to share, if you, um, believe that
you can provide value and knowledge
to others, not pitch your business,
it's all about providing value.
And if you're willing to do
that, we'd love to invite you on.
Right?
And I think that could be online,
that could be in person, but the
idea is if you know someone or you're
someone who could contribute, we'd
love, we'd love you to reach out.
I dunno if you have anything
else to say on that.
Lliam,
you know, the other thing I I'd really say
there is that iron sharpens iron, right?
Mm-hmm.
When you build a community and
you become valuable to that
community, and your community in
turn becomes valuable to you, right?
You are, you are building something
that will stand the test of time.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
If you want to go it alone and
you wanna say, look, you know,
I, I can do this by myself.
I'm not saying you can't.
Right.
I think many people can.
Right,
right.
But I, I, I think you also have to
recognize that, that, uh, the most
dangerous member in any business is one.
Right.
And so, you know, if our goal with
this podcast, I think is really to
be able to say, you know, what are
the things I wish I knew when I was
smaller and I was starting a business
and I didn't have those lessons?
Or maybe I didn't have a
community or, or I didn't have
parents that were entrepreneurs.
Like, what are the things I
wish somebody would've told me
to be able to make my journey?
Maybe less painful or more
valuable, or maybe shorter.
Right.
And I think that, you know, as we've
now, you know, been in business for
30 years, I think we look back and
we say, geez, that was really tough.
Right?
Wow.
We learned some things
that were, that were hard.
What can we share with other people?
What can we share with other businesses?
You know, how could we be valuable to
them and to our community as a whole?
And you know, as I, one of the things
that that, that I think happens to
you, you've been in business for so
long, is you develop friendships with
other people who own other businesses.
Right.
And I can tell you absolutely, for sure,
if you own a business, you have stars,
right?
There is, there is nothing, there
is nothing for free in this world.
Right?
And, and, and being able to, to.
Listen to that and take advantage
of, of other people's thoughts and
ideas and, you know, suggestions,
um, I think is really valuable.
And, you know, uh, you are your
own number one investor, right?
Yeah.
If you're not willing to invest in
yourself, it's very difficult to
convince someone else to invest in you.
And so this is a forum I think that
we're creating to allow people to, you
know, share their experience and, and,
and invest in, into our community.
Absolutely.
Giving back to the community
and iron sharpens iron.
Absolutely.
Well, Lliam, I really do
appreciate the time today.
I think you've been very generous
with your, with your time, so I
appreciate it and we look forward
to the future episodes where we can
all kind of learn from each other.
So thank you again,
You're welcome..
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.