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If you are seeking new ways to increase your ROI on marketing with your commerce platform, or you may be an entrepreneur who wants to grow your team and be more efficient with your online business.
Talk Commerce with Brent W. Peterson draws stories from merchants, marketers, and entrepreneurs who share their experiences in the trenches to help you learn what works and what may not in your business.
Keep up with the current news on commerce platforms, marketing trends, and what is new in the entrepreneurial world. Episodes drop every Tuesday with the occasional bonus episodes.
You can check out our daily blog post and signup for our newsletter here https://talk-commerce.com
Brent Peterson (00:00.908)
Welcome everybody to the collab here from Shoptoberfest brought to you by Shopware.
You were a little late on the fresh that time. know. Brett Peterson, ladies and gentlemen, Talk Commerce extraordinaire. I'm Scott Oshman with Always On, brand and we are joined by honestly all of our past, present, and future Brian Lang. Brian Lang from Future Commerce. love What's up guys? God, damn it Brian. got me. Yes, thank you. Geez, we've been waiting. We've been literally waiting here eight hours.
You're your eight hours for Brian to come on the broadcast. This is broadcast number 17 of the night. This is the after dark episode. It is the after Brian, we had Philip on earlier. He said nothing. no, really lies. You are a featured speaker at the Choptoberfest. True, true, true, true. It's because we released a new report. He talked about a report, RFP. The Honest Truth. The Honest Truth, which I love the title, by the way. Shout out you.
Thank you. you. Yeah, some kind of you. We already went through that. You already talked about our piece. What do you really want to talk about? I want to talk podcasting with you. Well, I mean, I'm here. I can talk podcasting with me all day long. Let's run down the different. You are basically I believe and maybe this is fair or not fair, accurate. You know, don't let accuracy get in the way of a good story. Myths, baby myths.
You guys are really to me in our world, in the e-comm world, you're a media company in the e-comm space. Is that fair? Yes, we are a media company in the e-comm space. Actually, hold on. We're a media company in the commerce space. Yes, not just e-commerce. You guys are in commerce. You cover everything, retail, all that. All of it. All that and And then some really honestly. know truly we go farther. Anything tangential in any possible way.
Brent Peterson (02:03.05)
Anything that's, you know, remotely connected to commerce, we will cover. And actually it's, and it's actually probably good because there's a lot of things that people don't realize are connected to commerce that actually are. No, I know. So what I was going to ask Brent, did you have a question? No, no, I'm listening. This is good. It's good really stuff. Yeah. Keep going. What the hell is future commerce and what does it include? Like I went to your website, you have
You have a great little website. Not a little. It's a great website. It's not a great little. That was that was. We do have a great. We have a great little websites. True. No, but I'm saying you have you have different things you can choose. You have content. You have podcasts. You have there's a lot going on there. Can you can you break it down, Brian? Sure. Yeah. So Future Commerce is a media company focused on the intersection of culture and commerce. And I think this is really important because a future commerce
We are biased very, very clearly. We are somewhere between analysts and industry media and edutainment. But the point is we actually have, well, we really have a point of view. And that point of view informs how we think about what's happening in the industry. And that point of view is that commerce really is a person to person connection point. Commerce is identity exchange.
If you think about it, you buy something from me or trade something with me, the... When I give what I have to you in exchange for your hard-earned money, you're giving me a portion of the life that you have built. my god, this is... Jesus, this is serious, Brian. I know, a little more than you expected for the after given you a pound of my flesh.
In many ways, yes. You've given me a portion of your time, your emotions, your investment as a person. And I am giving you something that I have invested in as a person. You're taking it on as your own. And so commerce is identity exchange. And 17 years in, how does that? No, I'm with Brian and I appreciate the fact that he's come in with.
Brent Peterson (04:21.582)
I a hard sell. I wouldn't even say a sell but he's passionate. These guys love passion that he has in terms of what he believes and what he's delivering to his client. And being an entrepreneur, as an entrepreneur you have to have these certain things that the client is going to want to have from you. And I appreciate that.
to be honest that I don't know if we're providing our clients with anything they actually want. The truth is like at Future Commerce, our goal is to be as independent as a voice as possible. And so we're actually trying to like put things into words that we can feel and that we really believe and that we actually care about. And like, I think that that's, that's one of the things that sets us apart is that we really believe
in this person to person reality of commerce. And so if we can understand how people are changing the things that they consume and enjoy, the things that they believe their philosophy is their psychology, their art, the way the world is changing, then we can understand how commerce is changing. And so
And I believe this is true for both B2B and B2C. The B2B economy is as much the attention economy as the B2C economy is. And so I really believe that people are the ones that drive these things and people buy for a number of reasons. It could be mimesis. It's the idea that people don't even have inherent desires of their own. actually look out at other people as models and copy other people's desires.
Or it may be that they have pressures from a boss and they have to go the way that their boss is telling them to go. They could be looking at it a piece of art and just enjoy something or want to be around somebody. And so they buy from them because they want to be around them or connected to them in some way. I believe that the things that we create actually don't have value in and themselves. They actually have value due to the creator that makes them.
Brent Peterson (06:30.038)
And so there is the.
Brent Peterson (06:35.31)
Keep going. on, hold on. was getting ready for this. please do keep going. We just got beers by the way. We did. Hendrick is the greatest. mean, you believe I believe. Yeah, I have to say that I again, I appreciate the passion and I think the.
where you've said earlier, culture is commerce, right? I think that what people believe is part of the culture in today's, what's happening right now is the intersection that you've captured that's very unique. See, that's what I think is most fascinating about what you guys do, is you catch the celebrity, you catch, understand the content, you understand, we talked to Philip Jackson earlier, your partner, about how you're in
moment of seeing everybody's like you're seeing how the content the creator which is now the own brand which is the celebrity slash I mean it's like God did the freaking dominoes are falling here but how that affects how we buy shit yes correct God I couldn't get there fast enough yeah it took you a while
Yes! God, I taught him two Yiddish words, Two. Chutzpah. What else did teach you? Shmutz.
So, well, maybe for to the Malcolm Gladwell podcast. I can't say it. love Malcolm. I've read his books. Brilliant guy. I like his little podcast network he used to have or he does have now. I think he still does. Yeah. Was it? I don't know. Pushkin, Pushkin. And I like Michael Lewis. His little schtick. He's got going. The writer. Yeah, that's it's a fun. It's a fun podcast. I listen to a lot of what is they?
Brent Peterson (08:31.024)
Revisionist history. It's quite good. Yes reference that in some of the talks that you listen to your own shit Sometimes You guys push out so much good stuff we've got a lot of content so it's really hard to To get back and listen to all of it because that we put a lot I'll be honest with you guys since we're in the after dark. We're ready after dark Nobody's listening. I don't actually listen to that many podcasts. I listen to a few podcasts here there always a friend talk commerce to
your faves. I was on brand. It's my new comment. I was on brand.
That joke never gets old, ever. I want to go back to this whole culture meeting commerce. I agree. love that. I'm glad you're going back. Yes. And the Visions, like you did, you guys did Visions a couple of years ago. Yes, we did. No, actually, it's not a couple of years ago. That was last week. Was it last year? No. Visions is an ongoing summit that we run. We've done it for four?
No, is that right? No, I might be the one getting it wrong. But we actually just did one in New York at the MoMath Celeste Bardo's Theater back in June. And we have one coming up here the second week of October in LA. October 10th. Yes. Thank you. I'll be honest. This is going to be the coolest lineup of content that we've ever done. talked about this. This is like celeb slash big hitter, big hitter.
Hoity-toity, bougie, It's not bougie as you think it is. It's very digital forward. It's very online. That's an interesting concept, digital forward. Because 20 years ago, it be more like, would we talk about digital forward? Well, then I started in e-commerce.
Brent Peterson (10:27.598)
1998. No, being serious. No, you're right. Yeah, yeah. No, it's This is what I love what you guys do because you are in the crosshairs of these massive content creators, celebrities. I don't know whatever you call them. Depends on what your mood is or what your space is or consumption is. But they sell shit and they need digital. They need commerce. They do. Everyone actually needs commerce at some level. Actually, you know, everything is commerce at some level.
you know, every interaction has some component of transaction to it. Even gifting is a transaction, right? You know, even in some ways, love requires transaction. hey now. Whoa. Yeah. Wow. Okay, I want to bring up a Do you? Yes, because I'm talking now. So...
There are certain marketing companies that are, let's call them far front end transactional where they don't think about e-commerce and whatever that platform is. And when I was in the SI space with Magento, I had a friend who was involved in the marketing where they were trying to get people to come into the funnel, but they were not interested at all in the transactional commerce.
trying to get them into the top of the funnel. Yeah. And that bugged the heck out of me. Yeah, because they don't get it. They just think. I thought, well, what about the actual point in which a client buys something? Does that matter? Listen, everything in this world runs on KPIs. For them, all they cared about is getting them way up here. for those who And that's how they got paid.
Can they see you? those who can't see me. Are we recording? They can't see that I'm way, that I'm my hands way up high. There we go. Yeah, there we go. Like Moses, right? They can't see that I'm saying we should be coming down here where the actual transaction happens. Right, get down into the dirty details of where, like, so this is interesting. think bringing the transaction closer to the point of decision is huge. So.
Brent Peterson (12:45.434)
People actually make decisions to buy things well before they make a transaction often before they make a transaction they'll see a trend on tik-tok and be like I need That thing that's trending or I need a thing that's empowering that trend and at that moment they they have actually in their minds in in like mental space have said I am going to buy something related to this and
There's things that can prevent that from happening, but in their minds, transactions happen. And so bringing the actual transaction closer to that point of decision...
is essential for a lot of brands to actually get them to make a purchase and bringing it to them in a relevant way. And, you know, as we look at, the different modalities in which people purchase now, context is actually collapsing around people all the time. They're purchasing when they're, you know, at their kids sports game or their race or they're watching TV or right after the dog throws up on the carpet in front of them. We have so much less control
control over when and how people are purchasing, then the people have for generations before us, they've built contained shopping experiences that people have to enter into in that physical space. And now everything happens all the time in every way. And actually the modalities within digital are even contained to different softwares or platforms or whatever. And so it's very difficult to control the context in which
someone's pushing, so bringing the transaction closer to point of decision is actually really important right now because someone might make a decision to purchase something right before their doc throws up on the carpet and then they have to go clean it up and by the time they get back there probably may or may not have the ability to go research and finalize that point of decision. And so if you have an easy way for them to check out in that moment, then you serve up something that is relevant to them
Brent Peterson (14:53.392)
in their press range related to the trend that they're trying to get into. that emotional moment. Yes, before their talk throws up, then you have a better chance of bringing them to completion of something that they already made a decision about. Yeah, I'm just going to say LVD. OK, that was worth an applause. that whole, that was a... Luxury vinyl flooring.
yeah will help you with your dog throwing up that is true way now clean up and carpet there there is something i want to add to this those really important there is danger bring transaction closer to point of decision because yes sometimes people make decisions to purchase things that probably shouldn't purchase yeah let's drunk shopping drug shopping accounts for billions of dollars right and sometimes people get caught up in a trend that they don't have the wickets and stepped it upon them
actually in the end they don't really want it or they may end up buying something because they don't have time to like assess the actual thing that they need. They buy something that's not quite the right fit when in reality and then they end up returning that thing and replacing it with something that actually was the right thing. And so there is this concept of providing good friction in the transaction process that is necessary to make sure that people don't over purchase or under purchase.
they're actually getting the thing that makes sense for their lives is actually good for them. And I think that good friction is anything that can be done by a person to help people make that transaction. Bad friction is anything that's like...
where there's things that are impeding progress of making a purchase that could be accomplished by a machine or by automation or by a process and that could be handed over to a process or a machine. Is this like rationale? Can you go back to the good friction? Just repeat what you said in the good friction. Yeah, agree So let me give some context here. Sometimes people need a little bit more
Brent Peterson (17:05.167)
more of a moment to understand what size they should be. This is a really simple example. What size they should purchase from a brand, right? Good friction would be making sure. need extra small. Medium. That'd be no, that'd be good for you. Okay, go keep going. Brian. Sorry. So, you know, helping people make a good decision around which size would actually fit them and giving them measurements and giving them opportunities to, to, give that information over. Now, bad friction might be asking them
repeat all that again. sizing, understand that was just an example. is. Sizing is... man, we got some...
opportunity for improvement. But you said something good on, mean I like what you said originally on the good friction, like I agree there's like this good friction and there's this bad friction. I'm trying to give you a simple example. No I agree, so there's some thought you're basically instituting some sense of rational making sure that they don't just buy something because they experience mimesis, this idea of having models that yeah because in apparel and footwear it's 30 % return rate.
Right exactly exactly. This is massive problem. Huge problem. It'd be better to have people buy 10 % less but it returns by 20 % so you know down to 20 % from 30 % or whatever it is. Here's to my 75th beer tonight. Amazing. I'm drinking Mead because I'm
Friendly and a little bit snobby. no, just don't drink. Brian Lang on the show. I don't do gluten because it makes me feel bad. No, I'm just kidding. So I like that. That's good friction. I've never heard that term. Good friction. Yeah, I love that. That's a juicy nugget right there, Brian. That's why you guys are smarter. No, you're smarter. No, you're smarter. You're smarter. No, and I'll feel like we need a sound effect right now. I'll look So let's look at.
Brent Peterson (19:07.906)
Good friction.
We already just beat good friction to death for crying in the night. actually, let me go a little bit deeper here. He said he had 10 in him. We're at 19. I love this guy. I told you, 10 actually means 20. Have you ever listened to Future Commerce? I have. was easy. So there's something I'm going to relate here to, the term that everyone's tired of right now, but I actually think has a lot of legs. And it's in sort of a mental jail. It's a mental sort
of stoppage because it's been used so much. And then there's AI. And I'm going bring up AI to actually go back to good friction. So there was a guy named Norbert Wiener who is considered the father of cybernetics. He wrote in the 1950s on AI and on cybernetics and what's going to happen with machines and software. And if you read his book called The Human Use of Human Beings.
he perfectly predicts the evolution of AI. Like, I'm talking to a T. Do you guys remember when Google was trying to have their AI beat a person at the game Go? I read about this. So yeah, I'm in the trough of.
disillusionment. I'm in the of the delulu as the kids say. Delulu might be over now, but yes. I think it might be over. These things happen in two week cycles now. I was reading about this because AI, just like the internet, has been around actually for way longer than we know the public that opened AI in 2022.
Brent Peterson (20:52.738)
We were talking about there's different sort of styles of AI out there and.
there's, there's the AI that everyone put on like Watson and on, you know, like the Einstein remembered Salesforce, Einstein. Okay. That was, machine learning effectively. Now we're talking about generative AI, which is kind of a new form of AI that that's, know, chat, GBT sort of unlocked, like that was, were the first ones to release it. and whether or not that was available or like people were working on it before that. it's kind of neither here nor there. We, as the public really got access to it through chat.
It is a new evolution in the way that AI functions. So Norbert Wieners, so he perfectly, he even said, Go will be the last game that AI plays in a closed system. Wow. And he was right. In the 50s? In the 50s. Unbelievable. In the 50s, he perfectly... Can we get this Wiener guy on the pod? Fact check.
Talk to Wieners people, get them on. Go ahead, Brian. You guys are good. This is fun. So this is the thing. So his whole thesis around AI, because he knew where it was headed, post-closed system AI, he said, we're going to get to a point where AI is going to be able to take an entire language.
and converted in and like translated to another entire language and then translate that to another entire language and then translate it back into the original language perfectly. Wow. And when you talk about language, this is the most complicated things that humans do. is language language is it has the most permutations and the most potential expression in terms of like.
Brent Peterson (22:49.486)
like computational data, it's got the most opportunity for changing because of idioms, because of all the small little things and little exceptions and rules and so on. And so we're getting close, but here's his thesis. We're not there yet. We're not there yet. Please put up your landing soon. Please put up your... Here's his thesis. Yeah, your seatbelt on.
The thesis was some, so there are some things we need to classify all interactions. There are some things that should be human to human. There are some things that should be human to machine. And there are some things that should be machine to machine. And if you could start to think about your business this way, if you could start to classify the things that make you uniquely human as a business.
That is where the good friction exists. There are things that you're going to need human to computer interactions on that are necessary for computers to interact with humans and get the information out of the things that should be computer to computer, machine to machine interactions. The problem is almost every business in the world right now has mixed all this up. And they haven't properly classified where these things fit.
And that right there is the future of commerce. Yes. Yes. I might have been over 20 minutes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Brent Peterson (24:30.528)
winged it and we had no topic and nailed it and he absolutely got thought-provoking my mind actually is hurting a little bit I've got a small cramp in my left lobe
Sorry, sorry. No, don't be sorry. Don't be sorry at all. That's actually phenomenal. It's great shit to think about it this way. This is what Future Commerce does. This is what the content you guys produce. When I read your stuff, it makes me think. That's the goal. And I think it's interesting. And we don't know where the future lies. And we can't predict all of your things. But I love trying. I just love to understand and position yourself.
It is. It is fun. if there are some things, if anyone ever wants to go look back at our back catalog, there's some stuff in there and you're going to be like, my gosh. dude. There's an article I wrote in 2017 that just, just you wait. Like I, there's a few things that are already coming true out of it. Like AI agents that Salesforce has been banging on about, I wrote about in 2017. So if
If you want to have some fun, go back and look at a really old stuff. Some of it's really bad. I mean, we weren't as good at audio back then. I was not an audiophile when I came into this. Philip was like, man, we got to get you a better mic. It might be little pain, but I was not as good at talking as I am now. We love having I do like to think. Thank you for having has been so fun to be hanging out. We got all the stars here. It's just been awesome, It's been a good event, man.
people together. Brian Lang from Future Commerce. Here at Shoptober brought to you by Shopware.
Brent Peterson (26:23.97)
that is might be catching on i'm not sure brian thank you so much thank you guys for stopping by. We'll talk to later. So good. Bye bye.