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Welcome to Your Art Is A Spell, the podcast that ignites inspiring and transformative conversations about art as a magical practice. I'm your host, Edgar Fabián Frías—a multi-passionate artist, witch, therapist, and proud mutant shape-shifter. My art spells have reached audiences through social media, billboards, and skyscrapers and have even been placed on the surface of the moon! Join us as we explore how reclaiming your unique artistic voice and embracing bold creativity can transform your life and the world around you. Subscribe to the podcast and sign up for our newsletter at www.yourartisaspell.com to stay connected!
[Music] welcome to your art as a spell this is
episode three and I'm so excited to share this
lovely conversation I had with the artist Kira
Xonorika we met at LACMA on the LACMA campus in
front of the La Brea tarpits and you will see
it was a cute little scene and we got to have
a wonderful conversation about so many different
topics that I'm excited for us to dive into but
before we do I want to read you Kira's bio
Kira Xonorika is a groundbreaking artist
writer and futurist whose work operates at the
intersections of Technology culture and identity
focused on using AI as a collaborative medium
Xonorika delves into complex themes relating to
ancestry indigenous World Views and a critique
of artificial boundaries such as those between
male and female Utopia and dystopia and human
versus machine that have historically reinforced
Western Colonial systems of Power by challenging
our preconceptions around identity Xonorika
prompts us to reconsider these categories as fluid
rather than fixed echoing Nature's Own disdain
for rigid classifications mind too Xonorika has
recently been on a role and exhibited her art in
Los Angeles New York and Berlin and she's honestly
going to continue to show her work and you know
one of the things I'm excited for you to hear
about is how Kira and I met because it's such
a sweet story and I think it really exemplifies
the power of your art being a spell so excited
to share this conversation with Kira Xonorika I'm
here at the La Brea Tar Pits and LACMA with the
incredible artist Kira Xonorika and I'm so excited
to have a conversation with her today and to have
her on the podcast your art is a spell welcome
Xonorika thank you so much for being here and I'd
love for you to introduce yourself to folks thank
you for having me it's such an honor and honestly
The View here it's lovely I'm loving the weather
I've never seen this part of LACMA before so so
that's cool um but anyway an introduction um so
I'm an artist I also I have an interdisciplinary
practice with writing and futurist foresight and
in my work should I go technical yeah I'd love
for you to go technical yeah okay so in my work I
explore uh the connections between technoscience
indigenous sovereignty data speculative Futures
Magic that's very important and ecology I also
love fashion that's kind of implicit in my work
but um yeah well wonderful yeah I'd love for you
to explain you just use a lot of big words and
I'm curious that there might be folks who might
not know what some of the things you shared are
so I'd love for you to share what some of the
things that you um are interested in are in case
there are folks who are like what what do those
things mean in case they don't know yeah so I
guess to summarize I'm very interested in how
technology meets science and this comes from you
know uh thinking about artificial intelligence
um my work is as a particular Focus around Ai
and I'm interested in the field of AI and how
that intersects with planetary challenges
climate change and I guess also thinking
broadly of art as this kind of portal to think
about this big ideas that are present in our
everyday lives through a framework of indigenous
sovereignty thinking about how indigenous peoples
can exist in the present and how we can assert
our existence our right to be here and how we
can bloom yeah I love that and especially with
the theme of this podcast being your art is a
spell I love that you bring in the idea of portals
and also indigenous sovereignty and I'd love for
you to share cuz I'm really interested for folks
to know about how you and I connected and also uh
I think it fits in a lot with the theme of this
podcast so I'd love for you to just share how we
kind of got to become a part of each other's web
in a way so I started following you on Instagram
at some point like I would say maybe post pandemic
times and then you once posted they were going to
have a workshop around art as spell making and at
the time I had certain practices with the op like
I've done bany like I've worked with crystals and
herbs I guess this idea really resonated with me
because I wanted to revitalize my art practice
and then I took your workshop and I do remember
you in your Workshop you talked about the power of
intention and kind of using symbols and colors and
bringing that intention of freedom and expression
into the works and I do remember the works that I
created in that Workshop cuz I was doing heavy
graphic design at the time and they were like
very graphic designning yeah and they were also
I would say to a certain degree inspired by your
nierikas and I really like the way you use like
you engage with space and time through your work
then I learn more about your practice and why it
is so meaningful and how how it's so it's a map
in itself but yeah I remember The Works that came
out of that worship were very like graphic design
design oriented let's say that but yeah and that
was like a month or two before I first got into LA
and then I moved to LA and then I started working
with AI cuz it was like the hot new thing so I had
worked with AI before but image generation was
at this level was very new and obviously there
was a lot of hype around it and I just wanted
to explore language and I just wanted to explore
certain ideas or kind of feelings I had inside
and that's how I just started creating a world
with AI and yeah I feel like taking that workshop
was so meaningful I always tell this story but I
feel like that worship really changed my life
and my artistic trajectory in so many ways you
are just such a generous educator such a generous
artist sharing about your work and I feel like
that really inspired me and I'm sure I'm just
one of many thank you so much for saying that
I really appreciate it and it's such an honor that
my workshop could be a place for you to reconnect
with practices that you were already connecting
with and also then get curious around Ai and
start to explore other mediums and I think one of
the reasons I'm just like so excited to have you
on this podcast and to also to share about you
and your work is ever since that Workshop ever
since you started to explore AI your work has like
traveled the world and people from all over have
been really connecting with the worlds that you've
been making with the imagery the dreamlike spaces
The Surreal magic that you've been bringing into
this world you just shared that you were working
a lot with words and I also know that you're a
prolific writer as well and I um would love to
hear about your relationship with words and how
they um kind of come into your art practice and
also maybe if you wanted to share a little bit
about your Writing Practice cuz it does feel
like connected to the emergence of your art
as well yeah so I would say that my Writing
Practice really started as kind of a way of
understanding the more raw aspects about reality
obviously before it was kind of center around
the way in which like geopolitics connect with
lawmaking policy but also at a certain point was
very focused on transgender issues and I felt like
when I started working with AI and and prompts the
way of writing and engaging with language was so
different that the previous writing that I had
done cuz it felt like more spontaneous it felt
like more I want to achieve this texture I want
to achieve this color uh it was more playful and
what I really enjoy about generating images with
AI it's kind of you're creating your own movie
as you iterate different times and then you don't
like this result and okay maybe try the thing and
go that way and of course back then at the time
we didn't have ai animation at the capacity that
we have today so perhaps the you creating your
own movie feels more literal now I feel like for
me writing initially started as place of let's
talk about the urgency of community community
and what is happening and what we need to move
forward and with image making it's kind of you
know creating this constellation of ideas and the
world where we want to live in which to me feels
like a more productive way of landing at it so
I would say that the writing process changed and
well I'll be Shameless about this I actually have
a book coming up with the Max Ernst Museum wait
are you serious I'm my gosh um I I did not know
about this and I guess that with this material
I'm kind of bringing the learning of AI prompting
putting more hope and optimism in like a poopi and
worldview into uh writing so that's cool that's
cool that that is cool yeah that is really cool
oh my goodness congratulations so amazing I'm love
love to hear that and I cannot wait to share about
your book once it's coming out and you know I I'm
thinking about like the power of Art and the power
of writing and language and um just curious like
what you've witnessed as you've delved deeper into
your own art practice and have started to share
your work and started to get feedback and people
have started to resonate or connect with your work
what have you learned or what's like emerged for
you around thinking of your own art practice as
a spell practice as a magical practice I'm just
curious like what you've learned or anything
you want to share about that process I see it
very connected to Neuroscience in the way that you
can actually visualize your thought pattern like
changing and you can be more proactive towards an
outcome that feels intuitively right my approach
to AI has been like a lot of rewiring I would
say and also materializing that which for some
might be impossible and you know I'm talking
about hyper Humanity or like bodies made of
latex and feathers and like this beautiful regalia
that is very connected to a culture but it's also
connected to the language of fashion and color as
a form of communicating love expansion Prosperity
so earlier you brought up this word Nierika and I
just want to share a little bit about it for folks
who don't know that it is a technology a practice
from the Wixárika community from Mexico and it is
essentially a tool that is used to communicate
with ancestors it is also an offering it is also
a map and it's a map that shows other Realms not
just the Earthly Realms but the spiritual Realms
it is a map that shows relationships that guides
that allows you to also receive wisdom inspiration
and I've been creating a lot of Nierika using
digital practices including like digital painting
collage I've been generating images with AI as
well and just bringing them together and for me
it's really a practice of honoring an animist
perspective and connecting with the essence
the soul the spirit the consciousness of many
different beings and elements in our world and
also trying to not create hierarchies so creating
more of a web likee structure and I'm thinking
about what you were saying earlier I remember kind
of as you were sharing like imagining underground
myceliaal web coming from your work and especially
with what you were naming around being able to
imagine things into existence that might not be
possible right now or that allow you to explore
things that you're curious about and excited about
and I you know wondering for you what has it been
like to create things with your imagination beings
with your imagination places with your imagination
in collaboration with Ai and also like how are you
seeing your relationship with AI at this moment I
like ref the idea of reframing AI as ancestral
intuition cuz you were mentioning ancestors
and you you also mentioned like bringing forward
indigenous technology and that's what I've always
admired about your work that you are bringing this
ancestral lens to the future but also to digital
practices and you know like through our history
like there are this weird and kind of quite racist
ideas I would say about what indigenous are can
be and the medium it should be and I guess that
something that really inspired me about your work
is that you show that possibility of mutation and
transformation which it's it's just super queer
and also so expansive yeah so for me and and I've
thought a lot about this I think that that the
beings I'm not I think I know that the beings that
are created are images of future ancestors and
ancestors of blood but also ancestors of purpose
and to me as a migrant in this country for me it's
important to highlight you know like that idea of
expanded family and how that is also connected
to my art and the images that I'm rendering
but family meaning not only human people but also
plant people Stone people and the many beings that
are present in our ecosystem I think that's really
the beautiful thing about indigenous cosmologies
that has historically been erased in westernized
societies like this idea of everything having its
own life and really like existing in cooperation
as opposed to competition so yeah um and my work
I also when I say ancestral intuition I also mean
survivance and the possibility of existing in the
right conditions uh and kind of you know thinking
of how nature already does this like during the
wildfires have the possibility to go to the Yucca
Valley and I was just fascinated cuz I've never
seen Yucca trees before and as I was reading
they're not really trees biologically um and
that sounds familiar but they are succulents
they're closer to succulents and what I love
about them is that the conditions of the desert
are so ideal that they just become this very
odd very sculptural plan and if you've ever been
to the Yucca each tree has its own personality and
they're all dramatic and I love that yeah and
one thing I want to add about Yuccas and also
Joshua trees is that they're odd and they are also
an interconnected being because underneath the
ground all their Roots reach out to each other
they actually grow horizontally underneath the
ground because they're trying to find each other
and connect with each other um and I know this
because I worked with the ecologist who studies
the mycelial webs that grow along with these roots
and um to me it's also really powerful that a
being can be both its own individual self and also
a part of a larger organism that's in communion
and communication and to me that also like speaks
to some of those like possibilities that we as
humans are starting to remember and wake up to and
that are of course a part of indigenous cosmology
and history around that reciprocal Cooperative Rel
relational ecosphere that we're talking about and
I'm curious you know you've been bringing up that
you're a migrant and that um you know talking
about indigenous practices and I'm curious if
you would like to just share a little bit about
where you're from and um what it's been like to
also connect with your own indigenous practices or
histories yeah so I come from the Guaraní people
which are peoples that historically have live for
Millennia in the southern region but we understand
Cent understanding of Maps um Brazil Argentina
Paraguay Uruguay and so I was commission to do
this film for CalArts RedCat which is titled deep
time dance and it's talking about the process of
geological formation but it's also thinking about
dance and this dance is this historical space for
queerness to exist and to be very embodied and
so this film you know it connects with the guy
origin story of this figure that is called Tupa
and Tupa is also uh amumu which in Guaraní means
hummingbird and this hummingbird and if you think
about hummingbirds they're like the ultimate cross
pollinizers so you know again the that idea of
beings collaborating and beings kind of serving a
purpose for greater good for Source God however
you want to call it and thinking about how AI
could serve as a way to reconnect with these ideas
and that yes there has been some eraser and many
things we done know and we won't know and also
we can't really idealize the pre-colonial past
either but I think it's important to connect
with the intelligence of the ancestors uh that
still live through through this stories and there
there is a prophecy that I share when I preface
this film like the prophecy is kind of written in
a paragraph uh from The Jig cava that the GU talk
about word as a soul and when I think about my own
practice I think about prompting with AI and like
the importance of bringing soul into it or how
we might unconsciously already bring Soul into
the things that we do and this CES back to the
idea of art of spell making and like Words being
spells words as spellcasting words as systems of
knowledge words as houses and when you understand
understand the importance of words the ancestral
guy already knew about this you understand that
they are so important cuz you create with them
you an artist curator or which that resonates
with these ideas we're currently seeking
collaborators sponsors and future guests for
your art is a spell if you're interested in being
a part of this journey visit our website your art
isas spell.com and sign up for our newsletter
or you can contact me directly and you'll find
that contact information on the same website let's
create Magic together yeah you know I guess like
with what you're naming about words and spells
and AI it's really making me think of what the
maybe at this moment in time that we're living in
what the larger mainstream cultural understanding
of AI is how you as you name it being ancestral
intuition not a lot of people think of it that
way right A lot of people when they think of AI
they might have other images in their head of
what it means what it stands for who it's for
what its purpose is and I know that there's a
lot of fear a lot of anger a lot of unknown and
so I'm curious for you as someone who's working
with this U practice who's um you know making art
and exploring your own identities your cultures
your histories your communities what would
you like to say to those people who maybe have
only learned about AI through what's maybe being
sensationalized or what's trending on social media
like yeah is there any anything you'd like to say
about that I'll say I hear you and I understand
because we've been programmed with science fiction
films from Hollywood mostly which stop into what
people between the 40s and the 60s thought the
future would look like and certain things of
those Futures are being replicated as you know
there is a tendency in general in society to
tap into dystopia as a form of as a form of World
building and as a form of connecting with what the
future is I also think that I'm beyond Utopia and
dystopia I would like to propose protopia which is
a framework um by futurist Monica Bielskyte
and it's basically a bigger framework of
thinking of Designing a future co-creating it with
the principles of life- centered design biosphere
regeneration eological imagination understanding
human rights and the rights of the nonhuman as
well I think that moving towards poopi and design
is something that requires a lot of imagination
that's the work of artist right now to decenter
some of these harmful ideas cuz at this point if
you hate AI it's because you've internalized uh
and you're responding to harmful ideas around it
you know this disembodied entity that might take
away your jobs and many other problematic ideas I
do think that also with technology we fear a lot
and that is understandable but fear won't take
you places for it will yeah and with you saying
that you know I'm also just really sitting with
how a lot of the mainstream narrative is kind of
feeding into what we've seen historically like
apocalyptic Visions right and as you're naming
a protopian vision really looks at life in such
a different way and wants to collaborate wants
to co-create wants to also think about the the
impact that we're having and the impact that we
have as we like move forward into the future so
I've just been really excited to see your protop
and vision rendered through through AI through
your own artistic practice and I'm just curious
what it's been like for you to hold that space
such a unique Vision that you know obviously
exemplifies your culture your history your
identities what's it been like for you to hold
that space within like the AI Community globally
since I know you're someone who goes around the
world talking about your practices and AI as an
artistic practice as well I think it's a process
of self-discovery on the one hand and and also
challenging the possibilities of what this agent
can do and how we can collaborate with it the
thing about AI is that it can be very scary but
once you overcome like that certain preconceived
notions about what is you can actually engage with
it and do so much more I will say that although I
perhaps one of the few who is working with this
perspective perspective uh with an indigenous
prian perspective my work is also informed by you
know the work of Dr Suzanne Kite uh tiar ran and
many other you and many other indigenous people
working across technology and science and also
trying to bridge this connections that are not
so obvious for others suzanne Kite said something
that still resonates with me and is that she she's
from the Lakota and and she talks about you know
thinking of AI as the intelligence emerging from
the alchemical process of stones becoming machines
and hardware and how if we sever our I mean she's
talking about in terms of like what's severing
indigenous peoples from the LA man have has done
and the Damage that has done and there could be so
much damage if we also think of this way with
AI yeah I love what you just bring up I think
it's really important to talk about this where I
almost see this as like the the Tactical purpose
of treating AI as something scary something
that you shouldn't touch or connect with it's
a way of collapsing and also stopping people from
potentially entering into relationship and this
reminds me so much of how the materialist Western
Paradigm has also made it so that we don't believe
in our connection to ancestors our connections
to plants to crystals to the clouds to trees
like that there is a way that Consciousness is
weaponized and fear becomes something that's
used as a tactic to get us to not connect with
something and so I could see this very easily
being replicated within The Narrative of AI where
if the mainstream narrative is we're afraid of it
I shouldn't touch it I shouldn't even look
at it or understand it what does that do to
our ability to be in communion in relationship as
it's developing and also as you're naming as it's
also being an essence of rocks of minerals
of crystals that are coming from the earth
and that are sharing their also Essence their
energy through these portals that we can engage
with right so like I'm just like really just
sitting with that like what does that do and
so I'm curious if there's anything you want to
say about that it reminds me of the fear of the
other and and that limonal space between what is
human and what is not and how we also conceive
like objection and like ideas of the Monstrous
and the alien there are so many iterations of
what the other looks like and I think that we
are risking so much possibility of connection
when thinking of AI in this way too that being
said we should be critical of the ways in which
this technology is used to you know bring
ideas about disembodiment and disconnection
with the human which is not the purpose either
this is what the tech oligarchs might want but
part of the process of reframing our relationship
to it is also moving forward moving towards a
different form of relating to it I think that if
AI can automate so many harmful things with the
right approach to design it can also automate so
many beautiful luscious and vibrant ideas worlds
things that can Aid our creativity and can pour
our imagination for creating together and I'm
curious you know with you bringing up the word
like Tech oligarchs don't don't make me name them
I I don't want you to name them no no I'm just
like um this is like it's interesting to me I'm
like wondering like do you see your work as like
um having like an activist lens to it or being a
part of the response to the tech oligarchs or to
some of the critiques that are needed in the realm
of AI yes in the sense that our bodies and and
perhaps the intersections that I'm representing
are visible in my work there is certainly a
response there is an opaque response that is
perhaps not directly seen as um you know a
different form of activist intervention but
for sure it's it's informed by a different body
politic uh it's informed by a sovereign way of
being and that's what they fear but we're not
going to stop because they fear that and they
want to induce fear of that our lives are precious
yes yeah they definitely are and I'm just really
grateful to you for making time for coming on this
podcast and speaking with me and I'm like curious
if you have anything that you want to share about
your practice uh anything's going on that you feel
our community would like to know about and also
how can folks connect with you my film deep time
dance will be screening it's it's actually part of
an exhibition in London at the art gallery so if
you're in London go check it out some really cool
artists thinking through ideas about objectivity
and subjectivity and how that is connected to
science and marginalized perspectives curated by
Helen star that will be starting in February 2025
I'm also presenting an extended version of this
film in Berlin when I I culminate my residency
with akademie der kunst and I L involved what
else uh I heard you might be doing a performance
I I've heard that there's maybe a performance
happening is that something you can share about
or no oh my God I forgot about that uh yeah so
I'm performing with a robotic agent what you might
know as a robot dog is going to be very cool it's
a queer indigenous approach to relating to this
new technology and perhaps decoupling it from
its problematic Roots will be at rip space during
frieze LA art week coming up on February 21st and
oh where can you find me I'm in all the socials as
@ XO n o r i k a thank you so much for having me
Edgar it's been lovely I'm so grateful and this
place is lovely yeah it's so nice that we can
have our podcast episode here on this beautiful
campus that you could see thank you so much for
being here it's so exciting how much you have
going on and I'm just so proud of you all the
work you've been doing and just so grateful that
I could share about you and your work um I'd love
to show little highlights of some of your work in
case people want to see it and I will definitely
be linking all of the places where folks can find
you in the description go check that out and also
I'm going to be naming U some of the people that
you brought in that are inspiring for you um also
showing them in case people are interested in
looking them up before we close is there anything
else you want to share anything that you weren't
able to share that you want to bring in I would
just like to close with the baby spice smile cuz
she said that if you smile you bring better luck
into your world and I'm a Scorpio I feel like
I can't hide my emotions but I do try to smile
often thank you edgar yeah thank you so
if you're listening to this on the podcast
you can't see that smile I do want to remind you
that these videos do appear on my YouTube channel
so if you want to check out that beautiful
baby spice smile go on that YouTube channel
and check out our video thank you so much
everyone and don't forget your art is a
spell and it willart a spell and it's a portal
yes your art is a spell and it's a portal and
it's going to change the world um how do you
say um I forgot the word cut or no like the
decretado what what are you trying to
say so like so like when you finish a
spell and you're like like uh you could
say so mote it be or so be it or better
that's yeah so be it or better
so be it or better yes thank you
everyone wow that was such a lovely conversation
that I had with Kira as you could see there are so
many beautiful connections between us and our
work both of us being queer trans indigenous
artists that are working within digital mediums
I'm also so honored for her to share her story
about how we met and how my own art practice and
my belief in art as a spellcasting practice has
truly helped her step into her power and you
can see how much she is doing now with her
art practice I know that AI is such a complex
contentious topic and there's so many thoughts
opinions and feelings about it and I want to
to say that it is so important for us to all
be a part of this conversation we cannot let
certain groups of people make decisions for us
around what these Technologies are and how we
will be using them we also need to continue to
critique the ways in which these Technologies can
disempower artists or can add to an exploitation
of artists we need to continue to make sure
that we include marginalized voices within the
conversation of AI and that is one of the reasons
why I love that Kira is out there sharing her art
sharing her vision sharing her words around these
Technologies we need need her voice in the space
and so I'm thrilled to share her here on the third
episode of your art is a spell now just want to
remind you that if you would like to support this
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these are all things that I want to talk about on
future episodes thank you again for being a part
of this Collective spell and for adding your
energy to it remember your art is a spell and it
will change your life and the world around you bye