Chapter + Verse

What is Chapter + Verse?

A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.

Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
come on and tell their real stories,

faith, failure, redemption, and the
occasional, "Lord, what are you doing?"

moment.

Some inspiring, some messy,
and some that probably should

have come with a warning label.

Because through every chapter of
every story, God is still writing.

And He's not afraid of a little chaos.

This is Jill.

And Carrie.

Let's turn the page.

. Well, we're here today
with Joe and Kinley Hamby.

They're our youth pastors at RFA,
and we're so happy to have y'all.

Would you- Welcome.

You're welcome.

Hello.

Thank you.

Um, would you tell us a little bit
about yourself just to start out?

Yeah, so I'm, uh my name's Joe.

Um, this is my wife, Kenley.

Hi.

Uh, we got married in, in 2021.

I grew up in Van Buren, Arkansas.

Uh, kinda knew each other
growing up a little bit.

She was a year behind me, and, like,
her mom was a teacher at the schools,

and, uh, so we saw each other around.

But, um, in high school we got to know
each other better, and then, uh, once I

was in college and she was in high school,
started dating and never looked back.

Um- So who was interested first?

Me.

Uh, for sure.

You took some convincing.

Yeah.

I friend zoned him at first.

Yeah, she did.

She actually friend zoned me
and then dated all my friends.

And then, um- Well- Not all of
them â¦ yeah, just Joe Oh, okay.

All I'm hearing is there's hope, fellas.

Yes.

If you've been friend zoned,
that's not the end of the story.

That's what I was telling you.

Like, play the long game.

That's, that's how it works.

Exactly.

But study.

Jinx.

Um, okay, well, you know, we just
wanna hear about whatever chapter you

wanna share about in your life, so-
Yeah â¦ this is- Um, we wanted to

start kind of, like, with my testimony.

I think a lot of people when they
see a pastor's wife, they think

of someone that's, like, grown
up in church their entire life.

Mm-hmm.

And that wasn't my story.

Um, but going I guess w- like, way
back and just God working through all

of the moments in my life, I hadâ¦

I guess I didn't get saved until I was 17.

Okay.

And before that, I had only
been to church maybe, like, five

times- Mm â¦ in my entire life.

Wow.

Um, but going back to really, like,
one of the, what I consider one of the

hardest times of my life, when I was
14, I was in eighth grade, and I had a

family member that attempted suicide.

Oh.

And that was just really hard, um,
for me because I was really close

to them, and I didn't understand it.

And I felt like they were leaving me.

I know depression is very hard on
the person that- Mm-hmm â¦ it's

happening to, and then it's
really hard on the family, too.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then that happened, and
that same day my dad got put in

the hospital for a heart condition.

And we were told, like, he really almost
could have died, and he was gonna have

to have a few heart surgeries after that.

Mm-hmm.

So it was just a time of, like,
I didn't know God, and so I was-

Mm-hmm â¦ very confused, felt alone.

Um, I remember, like, sitting in the
basement of the hospital, 'cause we

were there for a long time, like a
few weeks, and just crying and not

understanding what was happening, um,
and not really having anyone to turn to.

. So â¦ we got to go home, and it was still
a really weird time period in my house.

Um, and my parents were doing their
best to try to make me happy and- Mm-hmm

um, make things feel normal.

And I remember one day, um, I had to
talk to, like, the school counselor.

And you said you were how old during this?

14.

Okay.

Yeah.

But after talking to the school
counselor, it still, like, wasn't

really helping, and I just was
really down, and they knew that.

So they took me out to shop to try to
make, make it better, make me happy.

Make you feel happy.

And they said I could
get anything I wanted.

And I was 14, but I was like,
hospital bills, surgery bills.

I know we were poor before this, like,
we didn't have much money before this.

Yeah.

And this is gonna be a lot, too.

So I was like, I was like, "I'm
gonna find something cheap."

Um, and so I found this bracelet,
and it said, "Trust in the Lord

with all your heart and lean
not on your own understanding.

In all your ways submit to him, and
he will make your paths straight."

And I knew, I hadn't been to church that
much, but I knew it was from the Bible.

And when I read it, I, I just
knew that's what I was gonna get.

And it was just a cheap little
bracelet, but it gave me so much peace.

Aw.

And I wouldn't even understand that until
after I got saved, but I got to look back

and see how God moved in that moment.

Mm-hmm.

And he knew that it would be years before
I would even follow him- Mm-hmm â¦ give

my life to him, and all the mess-ups
I would have between that time.

He knew everything I was gonna do, but
he still cared for me in that moment.

Um, and that's just a, I don't
know, I look back and it's such a,

like, a sweet moment in my testimony
and my relationship with God.

For sure.

Yeah.

. So, um, so fast-forward.

From that moment, I felt like I had
this, like, desire to know more of God,

but my family still didn't go to church.

So, um, and I was 14.

I didn't drive yet, so I
couldn't, like, just go on my own.

Yeah.

Um, but three years later, after being
in, like, FCA clubs and a few things

at school, I still, like, didn't
really know what a Christian looked

like because I saw high schoolers
that didn't really live right, but

they were in the Christian clubs.

Yeah.

And I feel like you see that today, too.

Yeah, yeah.

Kids make mistakes.

You see a lot of adults
make those mistakes.

Yes.

So I didn't reallyâ¦

I hadn't known a Christian
that really lived it out yet.

And then I was in 11th grade.

I started dating this guy, and he said
that his parents probably wouldn't let

us date unless I went to church with him.

Which is funny.

So he invited me to- his youth
group and he drove me there.

Um, but I think, yeah, I was 16.

I could have drove at that point, but he
took me there and I got to meet, like,

people there, and the youth pastors.

And the youth pastors, they
were the first, like, I'd say

real Christians I had ever met.

Mm-hmm.

And they were just so
consistent and constant.

They loved me, like, invited
me over to their house.

Um, truly lived it out- Mm-hmm â¦ in
a way that I had never seen before.

And, um, but that first time going to
church, I was so nervous, and I feel

like you get that a lot today, too.

Just like you don't know what to wear,
you don't know if they're gonna make you

read something you can't pronounce - Yeah

in a small group.

Yeah.

You don't know.

There's just a lot of unknown
and fear, and then you get

there and it's, like, amazing.

Mm-hmm.

And that's kinda what I experienced.

And then, uh, it was an 11th
grade relationship, you know?

So it didn't work out.

Yeah, it's not super serious.

Yeah.

And he said that he felt
called to ministry, and at

that point I wasn't saved.

Mm-hmm.

And he knew that, and he said he just
didn't think we should date anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Which makes sense looking back.

It's different.

Yeah.

I, I was mad in that moment.

I was crying.

It was horrible.

Um, but I was like, "Yeah, okay,
that makes sense," looking back.

Yeah.

But I didn't want to give
up that new part of my life.

Mm-hmm.

And so that next week, I remember
the devil was just in my head of

like, "No one's gonna talk to you.

That would be so weird for
you to go back to church.

That's his church.

The youth pastors won't even talk to you.

They're not gonna like you
if you're not dating him."

Oh.

It was just like crazy the
amount that- What a creep.

Yeah, he is.

I just can't stand that at all.

Yeah.

Can't stand it.

He was just in my head like crazy, but
I went back and I remember the youth

pastor, Pastor Josh, he knew that we had
broken up and he came and gave me a hug,

and he said, "I'm so glad you're here."

Mm-hmm.

And I could have just cried in that
moment because of how much, how much fear

and all the anxiety going in my mind,
and he still welcomed me, and it just

shut down all those thoughts in my head.

Right.

It was completely the opposite of what
the devil had been s- Yeah â¦ just

slimily- Yes â¦ telling you.

Ugh.

And looking back, he knew
that if I went back that day-

Mm-hmm â¦ what would happen.

Yeah.

Well, you ended up in the
ministry yourself, you know?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so it's just really
cool how, um- I don't know.

I went backâ¦

Oh, I forgot this part.

So I went back.

He hugged me and said
he was so glad I came.

And then we go to the service
time, and he begins his message

with, "I'm really just preaching
out of, like, two verses tonight."

And he said, "Proverbs 3:5-6-" Mm-hmm.

"â¦ Trust in the Lord with all your heart."

And that was a moment again where, like, I
was so confused and I was heartbroken, and

God showed up again with that same- Yeah

scripture that he used before.

And it was a moment of, I wanna give
my life to him, and this is real.

Mm-hmm.

And he's been chasing me this whole time.

Yeah.

I love it.

That's really good.

That's good.

And we talked about on here with different
people that, um, well- Because the time,

time traveler and he, you know, he knew,
he could see the, he could see the future

and the past and all, and he knew what
verse to plant and when in your life- Yeah

to come back again.

Mm-hmm.

It's just, that's really,
like, gives me chills.

Yeah, it does.

It- Put a little lump- Not a little one.

It put a big old lump in my throat.

Yeah.

And you know I'm gonna cry.

Yeah, that's true.

So there you go.

I don't.

She doesn't.

But yeah, that's just- Mm-hmm â¦ yeah,
because he, I don't know, I just think

prayers are eternal too and- Mm-hmm

you know, praying over, even though
I have adult children now, I still

pray over them, and I just believe
God can place those prayers at any

point, at any time, past or present
or future, to sow a seed, another

seed of growth in them or whatever.

But- Yeah â¦ so that's really good.

Did you have any family, like you
said, did you have a church background?

Did you have any family- Mm-hmm â¦ that
went to church that you could remember?

My grandparents did, but they
didn't really live close to us.

Yeah.

Um, and like we weren't around
them a lot to, like, um, for them

to, like, pour into me that way.

Yeah.

Um, so- But they could've
been praying, you don't know.

Yeah.

For sure.

How, it's interesting to me that,
this is a little, little sidebar,

but it's interesting on like the time
traveler front, that we have no problem

accepting the fact that we can pray
for our descendants- Mm-hmm â¦ and

that those prayers will matter.

Yeah.

But not that prayers that we pray now
would matter potentially for earlier in

our- Well, not that, you know, like we've
said, it doesn't necessarily change- No.

But God can use people- Change what we
know, but he knew we were gonna pray-

Right â¦ a prayer today- Yeah â¦ that
could matter in that life earlier.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, when you try
to wrap your head around an

eternal God, it's really hard.

Yeah.

It is hard.

It's so hard.

To imagine so much power in one
being, you know, like all powerful.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, just, you know, we're
just so limited in what we think.

Yeah.

I mean, I am.

Yep.

But yeah, that's, that's an amazing
testimony, especially seeing where you

are today- Mm-hmm â¦ ministering to
youth- Yeah â¦ just like you were.

Yeah.

Gives you incredible insight- Yeah â¦ to
them and problems that they face probably.

Yeah, for sure.

How were your parents?

Like, how did they, um- How do they feel
about this, you going into ministry?

Yeah.

Um, they were very supportive,
and they still are.

Yeah, they've always
been super supportive.

Uh-huh.

That's good.

Yeah.

That's good.

That's amazing.

I never really, I never really gave
a lot of thought to, like, the fear

that people might have when they
don't grow up in church coming to

church and what they might expect.

I don't know, 'cause I've
always been part of a church.

Mm-hmm.

So I just don't think about, what do
people think, like, when they come?

Are they, what are they expecting?

Yeah.

But, like, reading aloud
would have intimidated me.

If I had thought about that, I'd
been like, "Uh-uh, not doing that."

Yeah, I've always been super
shy, so- Yeah â¦ I knew that I

wouldn't want to do any of that.

That was just all the fears, you know?

Yeah.

But, and then a few months later, um,
I guess- After that, after I'd given

my life to the Lord, and I feel like
I jumped right in and started helping

with, like, kids church and Sunday
school and teaching the kindergartners.

Yeah.

Um, and that was terrifying to me.

Like, I would study so much
to teach a five-year-old.

Wow.

That's good, though.

And, yeah.

Yeah.

Um- Listen, some of those five-year-olds,
especially the, like, I'm just

calling 'em out, those PKs that
know everything- But you know what?

I had PKs in my class â¦ and
they know it, and you're

like, "That's intimidating."

Yes.

And you're like, "I have to know,
'cause the pastor's kid's gonna ask

me- â¦ and there's no telling what
kind of obscure question he's gonna

ask, and go home and tell his parents
that I answered it in this way."

Oh, goodness.

Yes.

Good.

Um, and then I got back together
and started dating that guy.

That was called the ministry,
and that's where Joe comes in.

Yeah, that was me.

I thought that might be you.

The whole time, yeah.

I thought so, yeah.

Good for you.

Like, no- But for you, you're like,
"Okay, this, I can't until she's, you

know, further along in her Christian
walk," but- Yeah â¦ a lot of guys would

not have cared about that, you know?

It was, it was definitelyâ¦

So it was the season where I was going
to college, um, that, that, after

that summer, and, uh, it was a perfect
opportunity for me to basically just

be gone and for her to- Mm-hmm â¦ in
her own way, find, um, find the Lord

and find Jesus, 'cause I think that's
kind of, um, would never support

and encourage missionary dating in
any way, in any form or fashion.

Yeah.

Um, but if you're gonna do it, um,
the best way is to get yourself out of

the picture somehow and for- Let God
work â¦ let God work in their life.

Yeah.

And- Did that break your heart
when you had to break up with her?

Yeah.

I mean, I liked her a lot.

Um, and, and obviously, and, uh, thought
that she was, um, an incredible person,

but it's one of those moments, and she
eventually, now, um, she still holds

it over my head a little bit, for sure.

Good for you.

Good.

Um, uh, uh, even she understands, and
we're both on board that, you know,

the calling and the assignment that
God's given you, when you're pursuing

that first and everything else comes
second, it all tends to work out.

Yeah.

And, uh, he always puts
it back into place.

And so, um, that was, I was a really
stupid teenager, um- We all are

and I'm not very bright still.

But in that moment- â¦ I did make
the, the right choice of pursuing

that, that calling and assignment
and, uh, knowing that that was what

I was supposed to do- Yeah â¦ that
was where I was supposed to be.

It's like your Abraham moment.

Yeah.

And, and it was, it, yeah, and I
look back on that and think, you

know, very, very thankful for the
Lord and, uh, his hand in that.

You said something earlier about-
never really thought about the

fear of, um, going to Christian.

I'm in the same boat.

And, like, her testimony is one that
really convicts me a little bit- Mm-hmm

â¦ because, um, a part that, I don't know
if you mentioned it entirely, but part

of it, of hers, is that when she went
through school she would go to those FCA

meetings, and she did, yeah, she said
that, like, no one re- that she re- ever

really saw there, like, lived it out.

Yeah.

And, um, I was one of those kids.

I remember I was in those FCA
meetings, and she m- once told me,

um, that she remembers sitting there
in those meetings and just really

hoping that someone next to her would
invite her to church that night.

And- Ah â¦ and thank God-
Kimberly, I wanna go back in time.

I know.

Me too.

To go, "Kimberly."

Yeah.

"Come."

Yeah.

Um, and, but I remember, like, I, it's,
uh, it's crazy to think that that's

actually a group of Christians that are-
Mm-hmm â¦ all gathered, um, at a school.

Uh, and even in that environment, there's
not a, there wasn't a single person

through her entire high school that
was like, "Hey, um, do you know Jesus?"

Like, "Hey- Oh â¦ um,
yeah, I'm going to church.

Would you wanna come to church with me?"

Yeah.

Um, and I rem- 'cause I, I, being, me
being in my own little world, me being

so wrapped up in- Mm-hmm â¦ myself and
what, uh, uh, was going on, I was, I was

the main character of my story, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, never even thought about the
fact that there's probably how many

people in my high school at the time and
in my life, um, have I not even noticed.

Yeah.

And I've just been begging and just
really praying for someone to say

something to them, and- Mm â¦ because
I'm so focused on me, I didn't.

And, uh, so yeah, her, her testimony's
one that, uh, I really enjoy hearing, but

every time I do it's a little painful.

Yeah.

'Cause I was literally that person.

Well, let that be a challenge
to all of us to, like, notice

those people wherever we are.

Well, and especially, like you
mentioned, it wasn't at just,

you know, the cafeteria table.

Yeah.

Like, you were in an FCA meeting, you
know, which is- Yeah â¦ Fellowship

of Christian Athletes.

So, like, even if you're in a
group of what you would assume

to be believers, it's entirely
possible that the person- Yeah

that is sitting next to you
isn't, isn't quite there.

Or hurting.

Yeah, or is hurting- Or needs
something poured into them.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Just can't, can't make any assumptions.

Yeah.

And it's been really cool just
from our different backgrounds of

how we've been able to minister
to students over the years.

And especially at our last church,
there was a large bus ministry.

So those kids, none of their parents-
Yeah â¦ family went to church.

Um, so just times of like when he would
be preaching and he would say something

like Messiah, and I could say like,
"Hey, Joe, they don't know what that

is," because I wouldn't have known.

Mm-hmm.

And how to like minister, uh, to
someone that's just unchurched, I guess.

Yeah.

'Cause that's all I was.

Unreached.

Yeah.

And just knowing how to- Watch the kids.

Yeah.

Um, for sure.

I feel like theâ¦

That's something that's really cool
about the- Your upbringing in general

and those moments is that you always
see how they shaped you and made

you into the person you are and into
the, um, and how you act and how you

behave and the things you try to do.

Um, she mentioned that her, the
youth pastors, Pastor Josh and Megan,

were just the, the first people
she'd really seen that lived it out.

And even to this day, like we have a
what would Josh and Megan do kind of

a motto- Yeah â¦ um, in our life.

They're great.

Mm-hmm.

I love them.

Yes.

They, they're, they're,
they're phenomenal.

They're just the best people ever and-
I mean, I'm not close with them at all.

But just- Like, I'm like if
they're listening, they're gonna

be like, "How she love us?"

But like peripherally, like
I follow them on Facebook.

Yes.

And just at the different
functions that I've seen with

them, my gosh, and Megan's a hoot.

Yeah.

She's so funny.

They're awesome.

They'reâ¦

We, we, we visited them recently.

It's 20- I'm 26, she's 25, and
we have a baby, and we went

and stayed at their house.

With our youth group.

Yeah.

Youth pastors are forever.

Yeah.

Yeah, they are.

I mean- I'm still friends with mine.

Yeah.

Hi, Thomas.

But in peril, it's just this- Mm-hmm

they loved people, and they
loved Jesus, and they served

people, and they served Jesus.

Um, and from there everything flowed.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, uh, that wasâ¦

that's kind of been our focus is
just, just being genuine, beingâ¦

They lived transparently, so there's no,
you know- Yeah â¦ live in a glass house.

Um, you can come over to the house.

You can come talk and hang out, and we'll,
we'll stay up and discuss things with you.

We, we're an open book.

Um, we don't have anything
that we hide, you know.

Yeah.

It's kind of one of those deals of,
um, just truly being a genuine person

and allowing everything to flow
from that- Yeah â¦ uh, is, is our

key and what we learned from them.

Um, and, uh, it's just shaped us.

I mean, it shaped our
entire mindset and ministry.

And- Yeah â¦ sure we've got different
talents and things that we bring to

the table, but more so it's just we
compliment each other and, uh, background

and learning how to relate to people-
Yeah â¦ and what it is to be, you know,

genuine to them and just keeping it real.

I mean, it just sounds like
you're very equally yoked.

Yeah.

You know?

You are.

Which I think that scripture
gets a little bit twisted.

You know, people take it to
mean to believe the same.

But really when, when you take it at
what it says, like Carrie and I get

into the whole thing all the time.

The Bi- it says equally yoked, and a yoke
was for oxen and to be able to both pull.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So where you're weak, he's strong.

Where he's weak, you're strong.

Mm-hmm.

You're just equally yoked.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, necessary
for a great marriage.

Yeah.

And ministry.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

If you want me to talk, I'll
continue the, so that- Verse has

followed us a little bit farther.

Um, so we recently went through a,
um, season where we, um, where we had

been trying to get pregnant for about
six months with no luck, and then we

finally got that pre- positive test, and
we were thrilled, and we were excited.

Um, and then about three, four weeks,
I think it was four weeks later, um,

we ended up, um, losing the baby.

And, uh, that was, uhâ¦

Many people have dealt with this, and so,
um, it's, I f- I always find it difficult

and strange to, you know, make itâ¦

I don't wanna make itâ¦

A, a lot of people know what
it's like to go through that.

Yeah.

And, uh, that, but it
doesn't make it easy.

No, it doesn't.

And it doesn't make it s- it's
a very hard thing to go through.

And when you, when we as believers know
that Christ knits us together in our,

in our mother's womb- Mm-hmm â¦ right,
and that life, uh, began at, rings at

conception, and there, uh, he's forming
us, then we know we have a baby up in

heaven- Yeah â¦ that's waiting on us.

Yes.

And, um, we have two children,
just one of them's in heaven.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, this, that, that understanding
is, um, is really, it's really

powerful, but it was a difficult season.

Mm-hmm.

And recently we had the executive p-
presbytery, um, come to the church.

Mm-hmm.

Um, did I say that right?

I think I said that right.

Yes, you did.

Um, and they, we were one of the,
um, candidates that they kind

of prayed about and, uh, what
they felt like the Lord- Mm-hmm

was telling them to share about our life.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, one of the verses that I used
was Proverbs, um, uh, 3:5-6, so trust

in the Lord with all your heart- Yeah.

Love that â¦ and lean not
on your own understanding.

Um, in all your ways acknowledge
him- Gonna start crying.

â¦ and he'll direct your path.

And yeah.

Yeah.

It was, uh, as soon as you heard that
verse- Like I was in there, but I

was in kind of that, that- Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I remember that â¦ oh, yeah.

As soon as, I mean, as, as soon
as you heard that verse, Proverbs

3:6, it was just another reminder-
Mm-hmm â¦ of- He's there â¦ he's there.

He's personal.

Mm-hmm.

He is.

You know?

He, he never leaves.

There's- In those seasons that are
tough, he's- There are a million verses

that could've, you know, pricked your
hearts and, and given you comfort,

but that one was personal to you guys.

Yeah.

So nice.

Exactly.

He knows what he's doing.

He really does.

He's great.

He's omniscient.

He is.

He's been around forever.

He's the best.

Yeah.

It als- it was also a cool moment in that
we had a, we were pretty sure the, what

the name, what we wanted the name to be.

Mm-hmm.

It was a little strange, um- Yeah,
'cause we didn't know gender yet.

Yeah.

But we, we just really thought
it was gonna be a girl.

I mean, we don't, but we-
'Cause we have a girl- Yeah

and we just thought, yeah.

We thought, well, we really
liked the name Holiday.

And, um- Aw.

How about that?

Which is, it's like a strange name.

Like, we had told our friends
that, and they asked if, like, we

were gonna call her Holly, which
is what I really wanted to do.

Mm-hmm.

I wanted to name her Holiday 'cause
he's picked, like, Heidi's name.

Mm-hmm.

And then he found that
one, and I liked it.

But I wanted to, I
really liked Holly, too.

Yeah.

Um, but I wanted something,
like, a little different.

So, uh, yeah, we were just going back
and forth between Holiday and Holly.

Sorry.

Yeah, I love it.

No, yeah.

I love that.

Um, but we had picked the name
Holiday, and, uh, without even really

looking at what it meant that much- Mm

and we just really liked the name.

And, uh, whenever all this happened,
we, we then go and, and look up what

the name means, and it means a holy day.

Oh.

And it was a, a reminder, um,
that there is a day coming-

Mm-hmm â¦ a holy day, that, um,
we will be reunited with our baby.

Mm-hmm.

And that we will get to meet them and talk
with them and laugh with them and love

on 'em and hold them and be with them.

Yes.

And that, um, that, that name wasn't
coincidence- Mm-hmm â¦ and that, um, that

this season, although difficult, there is
one that's coming that is so much better.

Yeah.

And there is a life and a world
that we will get to walk in-

Yeah â¦ and live in with the Lord,
um, that is gonna be so great.

And all the pain, all the- Mm-hmm

sorrow, all the, you know, hurt
is going to be washed away, and

Holiday will be there with us.

Yes.

Yep.

And this makes that day just
a, just a little bit sweeter.

Yeah.

Every day's gonna be, uh, pretty, you
know, hard to get much better, but that-

Yeah â¦ just made me look forward to
that day just a little bit more, um.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And it won't be like we'll look back
on this, and I feel like we'll be

like, "Yeah, that was such a blur," you
know, because it'll be so short here.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

And then we have eternity there.

Just like, why were we
so concerned about this?

Why worry?

Yeah.

You know?

Or sad or, you know.

Yeah.

But yeah, that's, that's the hope I
wish everybody could realize- Mm-hmm

â¦ that there is an eternity that you
could spend with- Your babies, your,

your family who believed and- Right.

And it, and having that hope doesn't
diminish the hurt here at all.

No, it doesn't.

It just makes it a little
bit more bearable- Yeah

I think.

That's it, like, it's definitely cool,
like, just from this experience, we've,

like, seen him, how he worked in the past,
like, how he was working, he is working-

Yeah â¦ and his promises for the future.

Um, I know it was really cool, too,
um, just the day that it happened

and when we went to the doctor
and they confirmed that I had a

miscarriage, and we were just crying.

Mm-hmm.

And there was one girl that she
actually took my phone call,

like, when I called the doctor and
told me to just, like, come in.

And then I got to the desk, and
I, like, couldn't even get it out.

And she said, "Just come back here."

And she took, like, such good
care of us while we were there.

That's awesome.

Like, bringing tissues and,
like, kept checking on us.

And then the paperwork, she keptâ¦

She was like, "Just don't
even worry about it."

Like, she was just so, like,
caring and loving, and it-

Yeah â¦ she was a stranger.

And I was sitting afterwards, just a
few days later, I was sitting on the

couch, and I just started bawling again.

And I thought back to the
phone call when she answered,

and she said, "This is Holly."

Oh my goodness.

And it was just that, like,
I just started bawling.

I was like, He, he knew my plans.

He knew our plans.

He knew what we wanted her to be,
like, loving and caring, and he, like,

showed us a glimpse of it, I think.

Yes, he did.

And, um, it was just a cool moment.

I love the details.

Listen, he is like- This is like week
number four, I think- â¦ I think

where we're like, we need tissues.

We do.

We said it when- Every time.

Every time.

Like- Use your sleeve, guys.

So that, that's amazing.

Yeah.

Like, and I even- Yeah â¦ I
was like, "Am I 100% sure?"

And I went on their website
and, like, found her picture.

Aw.

I was like, I am.

That- Yeah â¦ that was her name, and
I don't know, it was just really cool.

Someday you should tell her.

All the things, yeah.

Like, oh, that would be, ugh- Gosh,
he's just- I feel like there's-

Personal is personal â¦ yeah.

Yeah.

He is.

If, if there's anything from our
testimonies, um, that you can take out

of it, is he's a God of the details.

Yeah.

Like, he- he's in the little things.

And, um, when you, when you look back and
see his hand, it's not just, not just,

"Okay, I'm still alive today," but- Right.

Yeah â¦ no, it's like in the little
things he was there, and he cared.

Mm-hmm.

And he showed himself, and he revealed
himself every single step of the way.

And in those moments, saw nothing, right?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

He said a couple days later that he
even realized it, um, in the moment

it was just pain and, you know- Mm-hmm
â¦ tears and tears and tears and tears.

Yeah.

Um, and then you look back and see he
was there, like right there with us.

Um, and I think when you know him,
like we've all come to know him,

um, it wasn't at that moment we
were questioning our faith, right?

Yeah.

Right.

Still knew he was sovereign, still knewâ¦

So our relationship was so grounded
in him, but it just makes it, it's

still pa- a painful and difficult time.

Yeah.

And, um, even though we weren't
questioning our faith, and we were still,

you know, strong in the Lord, um, he was
comforting us right there and without

us even realizing it and knowing it.

And, uh- Mm-hmm â¦ um, it is, uh,
it's really, I don't know, it's really,

really powerful and really beautiful.

It just, umâ¦

I guess, I guess my thought process
was, one, I'm not gonna question

my faith, so, uh, Lord, I, thank
you for being here with me.

Yeah.

Like I, thanks, thanks
for taking care of me.

I know you're still in control.

Um, I know tomorrow I'll wake up
and you'll still be there, and I

still, everything will be okay.

Um, and that was, that was
the peace that I was getting.

Mm-hmm.

But he was, he was in the,
he was in the details.

Right.

He is.

He was in the person.

He was in the, umâ¦

He knew exactly who we needed
to be, who needed to be there

for us, when they needed to be
there, what their name should be.

Um- â¦ that's, that's just amazing to me.

When she was born, he knew.

Exactly.

Like when Holly was born, he was like,
"One day her name's gonna mean something"

When he called me to be a nurse.

Yeah.

It was, that's just like, ah.

Okay, I better, I can't keep thinking
about that moment or I'll start crying.

But I will think about
that for a long, long time.

I mean- That is just so cool â¦ I
just feel like it's another moment

of, like, people get so confused
on, um, how we serve a sovereign God

who is in control and everything,
He, He has to allow it, right?

It has to go through His authority,
but that bad things happen, right?

Mm-hmm.

And we, we all know that we
live in a broken world- Mm-hmm

and that's why bad things happen.

Um, and He doesn't cause
those things to happen.

He didn't cause our baby to, um, to die,
but in a situation that He can use those

hard and difficult and tough moments to
still reveal Himself to us- Mm-hmm, right

â¦ and still to draw us closer to Him.

Um, um- Well, and also He can
use the moment that you guys had,

'cause you had a moment where
He used Holly to speak to you.

Yeah.

But there's no telling who was, who was
in the waiting room observing you guys

and your strength and your devotion
to God even through all of this.

Yeah.

There's no telling who will listen
to this or who will hear this or

your testimony- Yeah, same â¦ in
the future- They'll listen to this.

I know â¦ and see this is what it means.

Like, this is how you let God hold you.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

So even though He didn't cause your
baby to die, He didn't â¦ You know,

this wasn't- Yeah, exactly â¦ He
doesn't want babies to die.

Yeah.

He just doesn't.

Um, that He can make this impactful.

Yeah.

And, and, and grow your faith too.

Yeah.

And grow people- Exactly

the people around you.

Allow, allow Holly to be
impactful- Yeah â¦ for people.

That's, that's really cool.

I love it.

You like Him?

I like Him a lot.

I like Him.

He's a pretty great guy.

Yeah, I like Him.

I'm gonna keep Him around.

I like Him a lot.

Oh, that's so good.

Well, um, do y'all wanna share, like we
always ask our, um, our guests- Our guests

our guests, like do you wanna
share that if you could go back

to any Bible story â¦ So that's
the crucifixion and resurrection.

I mean, maybe we should
allow the crucifixion one.

No.

Okay.

'Cause we all wanna go see
what that- That's true.

I would love it.

I would do resurrection.

I mean, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

'Cause like, I would, I would
not want to see it, but I

think that I might need- Yeah

to see the crucifixion.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Which is how I feel when I
watch it one time every Easter-

Yeah â¦ during the play.

I watch it once and then I'm
like, "Whoo, that's a lot."

It's a lot.

Yeah.

It is, it's a lot.

And I sit nowhere near water.

And that's, that's the Spirit of Jesus.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Yep.

So what do you say?

Wait, well, you want, can go first.

Go for it.

You can take the lead.

I don't know.

Um- Just think about it, I guess

We've had a lot of differentâ¦

I'm not gonna tell, 'cause you might pick
the same one, but funny and- You know?

â¦ meaningful.

It, it can be any- Any, like- Anything.

It can be, I don't know.

And it, for me, like it changes.

Oh, yeah.

You know?

Once I say it, I'm like, "Okay, well
I've, I've said I wanted to watch

that, but now there's something else."

And I say to the kids a- almost weekly
when we talk about all the stories like,

"One day, one day when we get to heaven,
you'll play all this back for us."

'Cause we'll wanna see it in real time.

Yeah.

I'm conflicted.

I feel like- We'll let you choose two.

Yeah.

We'll let you choose your own one.

The woman with the issue of blood,
like seeing her- Mm-hmm â¦ push

through the crowd and be healed
after like hurting for so long.

Yeah.

I feel like that'd be- 12 years, yeah

yeah, I feel like that'd
be really cool to watch.

And then also like Jonah and the whale.

That one's funny, but- Yeah â¦ just
like seeing the whale, I don't

know, swallow him and stuff.

Do you like the ocean?

I'm interested in it, but it scares me.

Me too.

Like, like deep sea animals.

Like, I love, I love
the ocean at the beach.

Yeah.

I'm scared of the ocean- On a cruise
ship â¦ on a cruise ship in the middle.

Have y'all been on a cruise?

No.

Yeah, I've been on one.

I wanna go on a cruise really bad.

They're great.

That's definitely on
our bucket list again.

But I might be scared.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I, I think those are, I
think those are both great.

Yeah, me too.

Um, I, I guess if I had to choose
one, what comes to mind is the woman

caught in adultery, um, when they
bring her before Jesus- Mm-hmm â¦ to,

um, try and catch him, to try and,
you know, um, manipulate him to say

something wrong, um, to look bad.

And they throw her before him and
say, "The law says she's to be stoned.

What do you say?"

Um, I love the image of him
basically ignoring them- Mm-hmm

â¦ drawing something in the sand.

One, I would love to see what he wrote.

I w- I wanna see- What
do you think he wrote?

I wanna see what he wrote.

Um- What do you think he wrote?

I personally, I honestly
don't think he wrote anything.

I personally think it was like a, like
a, when you're just playing in the

sand, as if like- Like just doodling.

When you're, like, unbothered.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, it was, I think it was a, it was
a true sign of just, like, um, what

their, you know, the strife and the,
"What you're coming at me with is,

is not a bother to me because of how
much, how much he w- he was above them.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because then you see his response, right?

Of the, "First without
sin cast the first stone."

And you see them have
nothing to say in rebuttal.

Yeah.

Like, it, it says they,
they just walked away.

Um- Mm-hmm â¦ they didn't, they
couldn't bring up an argument.

They couldn't s- um, just eventually
they one by one just walked away

and- Mm-hmm â¦ um, were just silent.

And I fe- feel like that is such
a powerful moment of when true

love meets, um, hatred and meets
evil, um, evil has nothing to say.

Um, and hatred and shame-
That's really good.

That one goes right there, baby Yeah,
you need to do that in the book.

The, it really, I mean, that, and I
feel like just getting to watch that

and seeing his love and compassion
and seeing, you know, her whenever she

sees him, and he says, "Now go and sin
no more," I feel like that, just that

moment would be one that I'd usually
wanna stand up there and shout, you know?

Yeah.

It's one of the most powerful
moments- Mm-hmm â¦ of what true

grace is, um, and how strong it is
compared to any guilt, any shame, any

condemnation, any lie of the enemy.

Mm-hmm.

That it all, it's gotta just shut up.

Yeah.

Sorry to use the word shut up.

No, that's good.

It's okay.

I mean, we're a clean podcast, that's it.

We'll, we'll not get us flagged.

And I feel like the, you know,
there's times when you can just

tell the enemy, "Hey- Like I already
know what God says, so you, anything

you say, you have to be quiet.

Yeah.

Like, you have to be quiet.

Whenever you try to make me feel
guilty, you try to make me feel

condemned, um, you have to be quiet.

Whenever you spread another lie
into my mind, um, when you try to

convince me not to go to church
because everyone's gonna hate me-

Mm-hmm â¦ that's what, grace has already
told me that it's not gonna happen.

Yeah.

You be quiet.

Yeah.

Um, and that reminder
is so powerful to me.

And so- Yeah â¦ yeah, that's
one of my favorite stories.

Like, really.

That's really good.

Like, if it was in, if it was in present
day, he'd be picking up his iPhone and

being like, "While they're talkingâ¦"

Yeah, exactly.

That's why it's my favorite.

I'm on text God.

Hang on.

I feel like he's just doodling.

I, I feel like heâ¦

I mean, I'm sure he's
more spiritual than me.

That's why it's my favorite.

But I don't know, I mean, he
took the time to braid a whip.

I feel like there are moments
where I'm like, I don't know.

We, we like to think about him as, you
know, and I, I do think about him as

very patient and very much unbothered
and above it all, and I think he was that

way, but I also think he handled business.

Mm-hmm.

And he stood on business.

Yeah.

And he braided a whip.

Yeah.

He took the time to make it.

And so I- Take some time â¦ for me,
I've, I've looked at that and thought,

s- there are mo- I think about Peter.

Like, I relate to Peter a lot sometimes.

Um, and I just think about dude cut off
an ear later, so I know he was feisty.

And I'm like, what was Peter doing
while this was all happening?

'Cause you know he was
ready to throw blows.

Yeah.

Peter was ready to take some stuff down.

Mm-hmm.

And Jesus is just unbothered over
there like, "Do, do-do, do-do.

Oh, are you done talking?"

Literally.

Well, who's gonna get in the way?

That's good.

Go ahead, have at it, I guess.

That's good.

You know?

But I like it.

Um, okay, now this is gonna spring
on you 'cause we usually don't have

all the time, sometimes we don't
have time to ask this one, but yeah.

If you could have any
superpower, what would you have?

Are y'all into, like, superheroes?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, we like superhero shows.

While you're thinking about
it, is Batman a superhero?

We had this discussion
Sunday in children's church.

Where did I land with
the kids, by the way?

Like- I- â¦ were they
mad about my answer?

Not, no.

Okay.

I think most of them agreed with you.

Okay.

Batman a superhero.

That one's interesting.

I don't know how you define a superhero.

He doesn't have powers.

Has superpowers.

N- no, he just has money.

Oh.

That's it.

He's a rich kid with
lots of fun, fancy toys.

Yeah.

He's a hero.

I mean- Yeah, but not a
superhero â¦ that's fair.

Yeah.

Um, I don't, I guess, I
don't know, maybe the Force.

I think that'd be pretty cool.

The Force.

Oh, nice.

That is nice.

Star Wars.

Okay.

I feel like flying would be fun.

Yeah, that's fun.

That would be fun.

Yeah.

We could travel.

Yeah.

You'd rather than go.

Yeah.

You use the Force to hang
out and you just appear.

Yeah, we talked, the reason we
shared it Sunday is w- we're

talking about it 'cause of, you
know, Philip teleporting, you know.

You know, he was just, like,
gone and somewhere else.

Yeah.

And so we had to talk about that, so
just a reminder, but- That's, that's fun.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um- Well, thank y'all so much for coming
on, and anytime you wanna come on.

I think the next one you should share
funny stories about being a pastor.

Yes.

Names excluded.

That would be fun.

Yeah, we'd probably have a few.

Yeah.

If I- Yeah, I think that would be fun.

That could be- That'd be
a fun episode, but 100%.

Yes, thank you for having us.

This was great.

Well, thank you for coming.

Thank you.

We enjoyed it.

And you guys are the first staff
members, you know, obviously

it's not scary, but- Mm Mm-hmm

yeah.

We're honored.

Yeah.

I mean, that was intentional.

It was.

Alex.

We didn't even tell him we had one.

We had already invited you
guys before he knew, soâ¦

All right.

Well, thank y'all- Thank you â¦ and
we will- Thank you guys so

much â¦ talk to y'all again.

Okay, bye.

Bye.

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